DFA vs. Warlock Challenge

[carrdrivesyou]

Alright Playgrounders, today I come to you all with a challenge! I want to settle the bet on which is better, the Dragonfire Adept, or the Warlock.

I want to see your arguments for and against both. RAW rules apply here, so that means no Metabreath feats for the DFA (unfortunately), and Extra Invocation means you can only pick from your own list.

I honestly think both fall in the realm of Tier 3 classes and both are fun to play. I think that their Invocation lists are both decent, although Warlocks have much better Darks.

Discuss?

[tedcahill2]

Alright Playgrounders, today I come to you all with a challenge! I want to settle the bet on which is better, the Dragonfire Adept, or the Warlock.

I want to see your arguments for and against both. RAW rules apply here, so that means no Metabreath feats for the DFA (unfortunately), and Extra Invocation means you can only pick from your own list.

I honestly think both fall in the realm of Tier 3 classes and both are fun to play. I think that their Invocation lists are both decent, although Warlocks have much better Darks.

Discuss?

Warlock's are the better if you want to play a blaster with a fiendish heritage. Dragonfire Adept's are better if you want to play a blaster with a draconic heritage.

Winner? Everybody!

[Godskook]

Alright Playgrounders, today I come to you all with a challenge! I want to settle the bet on which is better, the Dragonfire Adept, or the Warlock.

I want to see your arguments for and against both. RAW rules apply here, so that means no Metabreath feats for the DFA (unfortunately), and Extra Invocation means you can only pick from your own list.

I honestly think both fall in the realm of Tier 3 classes and both are fun to play. I think that their Invocation lists are both decent, although Warlocks have much better Darks.

Discuss?

DFAs are powerhouses of simplicity and are AoE *MONSTERS*, but Warlocks have better optimization options at the super super high-end.

DFAs can only get to about 9d6x2 on damage, ~11d6x5 if they're evil and heavily heavily optimized. A Rapidstrike Hellfire Claw-lock can deal 30d6x6 or more. Worse, the Clawlock gets the ability to craft custom magic items for himself, all he needs is the crafting feat access.

[RoboEmperor]

Warlocks with Imbue item and Scribe Scroll has access to every single spell in the game, both arcane and divine, allowing him to do every single out-of-combat shenanigan in the game, be it making a demi-plane, gold loops, wish loops, etc.

Hell he can craft a scroll of simulacrum of Efreeti without needing parts of efreetis

[daremetoidareyo]

DFA has all knowledge skills and 4 skill points. He can build a really big boat in like 27 days with architecture engineering, find a fence to sell it with knowledge local, and use that money to hire a warlock to solve his problems. And when he dies, he goes to heaven.

[Zsaber0]

Depending on DM you could probably grab metabreath feats for DFA which is significant boost.

[Nodsiu]

Isn't any kind of Adept weak? Even is it is a variant.

[Godskook]

Isn't any kind of Adept weak? Even is it is a variant.

Dragonfire Adepts are not a Variant Adept, they're a whole different class with Warlock-esque capabilities.

[Nodsiu]

Dragonfire Adepts are not a Variant Adept, they're a whole different class with Warlock-esque capabilities.

What is book

[Godskook]

What is book

Dragon Magic.

[Gruftzwerg]

What is book

Dragon Magic: Official link (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=2)+ full class description.

_________________

monk / clawlocks can achieve really insane dmg values that others can dream off:

96d8 + 24d6 + 164 is the pounce dmg of my clawlock build (lvl 20 full equiped, see signature). And with fly + "Stagger" he can pounce in almost any situation (space).

I am not aware of any DFA build that could even slightly come near these values.

DFA has early game AoE power that others dream of. Later the warlock can catch up a lil bit "if" he builds a blastlock.

And as others already pointed out, the UMD boost of warlocks can be really cheesy. No one else can faster push UMD (due to the take 10 ability) to save values to cast 9th lvl spells from scrolls (without failchance).

[Godskook]

And as others already pointed out, the UMD boost of warlocks can be really cheesy. No one else can faster push UMD (due to the take 10 ability) to save values to cast 9th lvl spells from scrolls (without failchance).

Rogues can also take 10, and Factotums' Cunning Knowledge is +10 or greater at high levels, giving them access as well. Unless multiclassing, but that gets dicier, not simpler.

[The Viscount]

Dragonfire adept has simplicity on its side. All its invocations and breath effects are in one book, so you only have to choose 6 breath effects and 8 invocations. You can make all your class choices in maybe an hour. You only really care about 1 stat, and that's Constitution. Charisma depends on whether you choose invocations with a save or not, and you can probably avoid it. Infernal Adept can add a lot of variety, but also a lot of complexity. Doing damage is simple, primarily through breath weapon. You are capable of a reliable 9d6 fire damage, which is the most common vulnerability, but also the most commonly resisted. You can tweak the damage type with breath effects though. Your peak damage can be achieved with fivefold breath of tiamat for 45d6, though the target gets 5 saves, it's 4 energy types, and you cannot use a breath weapon in the next round. Because you get it so late, there is a chance the target will be immune to one or more of the types. Because you take 2xlevel (or 4xlevel if not evil) when you use it, you'll want some wands to heal yourself. For simpler but less damage overall you can go with discorporating breath of bahamut for 18d6 every round, though you still take damage. UMD can plug gaps in utility.

Warlock is more complicated, but greater variety gives greater utility. Most of the DFA invocations are things the warlock already has, or are very similar. Infernal Adept can give you the few unique invocations, like Humanoid Form. In terms of damage you also have 9d6 reliably, but a few more things in your way. First you have to hit AC (though admittedly touch ac is typically low) there are things that boost it, and this means you have to deal with miss chance, etc. Second you have to deal with SR (at least until you gain vitriolic blast). So instead of dealing half damage on failure, you'll deal none. In terms of cranking up damage, eldritch glaive will give you 27d6 in a full round (claw will function differently and not every DM accepts Dragon Magazine) potentially more if you can increase the number of attacks you make in a round. Supplementing that is the wider variety of invocations; warlock does other things than damage. UMD is a very good supplement, and warlock is very nice at it. Charisma investment is easier because the only other thing you need is a little Dex.

[Elderand]

DFA has one big advantage, early battlefield control with entangling exhalation.

[Gruftzwerg]

Rogues can also take 10, and Factotums' Cunning Knowledge is +10 or greater at high levels, giving them access as well. Unless multiclassing, but that gets dicier, not simpler.

Rogues get it later. And I pointed out that noone gets it faster. Warlocks get it on lvl 4 and can start to optimize and get his items before the rogue even just gets the ability.

Factotum has limited use/day IIRC and thus not a good option. Either you wanna use charges, different items/spells or even worse ongoing items, which require a check once a hour IIRC.
A UMD focused build would be difficult here IMHO.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The Power Surge feat pretty unambiguously gives DFAs access to metabreath feats by adding a recharge time to their breath weapon; it's Dragon, admittedly, but so is Eldritch Claws.

Ultimately, I think the answer is that DFAs have a higher floor (they've got some really nasty no-save-just-debuff effects right in their class), but Warlocks have the higher ceiling-- there are more and better options for boosting damage, you've got crafting and even a little minionmancy on the table, and just an overall higher level of support.

Oh, and both are likely to be boring and frustrating without some character-building chops. (Low-but-reliable damage isn't very exciting, and you have to strike a careful balance between getting options and getting power).

[Snowbluff]

Oh, and both are likely to be boring and frustrating without some character-building chops. (Low-but-reliable damage isn't very exciting, and you have to strike a careful balance between getting options and getting power).

This so very much. This is why I usually suggest going for Eldritch Theurge or Disciple to supplement damage or utility on a warlock. I don't know if DFA has an adaptation for these PrCs however. Anima Mage is another good option.

Also Warlock monk is a lot of fun.

[Manyasone]

To be fair, some dm's won't allow claw-locks because it relies on a feat from dragon magazine. Glaive-locks can still deal a decent amount of damage however

[Grod_The_Giant]

To be fair, some dm's won't allow claw-locks because it relies on a feat from dragon magazine. Glaive-locks can still deal a decent amount of damage however
They can, but they're somewhat late-blooming-- you don't get your iterative until 8th level, around the time Hellfire Warlock is coming online.

[Deophaun]

DFA has all knowledge skills and 4 skill points. He can build a really big boat in like 27 days with architecture engineering, find a fence to sell it with knowledge local, and use that money to hire a warlock to solve his problems. And when he dies, he goes to heaven.
Or he can just hit the Warlock with a baleful geas, depending on how you rule the action.

[Manyasone]

They can, but they're somewhat late-blooming-- you don't get your iterative until 8th level, around the time Hellfire Warlock is coming online.

I know, i know. Lesser of 2 evils and all. Glaive plus vitriolic, as we all know, sucks to be at the receiving end