The archery centaur division.

[SangoProduction]

So, how effective would a group of centaurs who use (say elves) as secondary archers on their back in mostly non-magical battlefield operations?

Talking is a free action, so no difficulties in combat. And you can basically double up on the bows. To get the same number of bows, one would need, obviously, double the archers and horses, which take up much more than just 2x the battlefield space, making them easier to see coming. This is even ignoring that a centaur can logically use longbows, because there's nothing in front of their humanoid part, whereas just getting more horse archers are still limited with their bow choice.

You'd want to basically never get closer than 70 feet to human-like targets, because of a charge, but that should be relatively easy as an archery duo. We would ideally want to get a way to increase the centaur's base speed by +10, so that you can just casually walk away from charge/double move without losing your attack (of the centaur at least).

The Quick trait does that just fine and is perfectly well representative of a division trained for skirmish warfare, without getting in to PC class levels. Of course, Horse Totem Barbarians and Celerity Domains work as well, but that assumes they've got PC class levels.

If the enemy took a run action, then all a unit would need to do is move away, and pelt them at their now greatly penalized AC, and they didn't even get to hit you yet.

[Eldariel]

They'd be historical Horse Archers all in one. Very efficient far as military history is concerned; everything from the Roman Legions to the Chariots to even the Chinese Crossbowmen (albeit mostly due to incompetent Chinese leadership) fell before the combination of a horse, a rider, and a composite bow so heavily used by the nomads from the Eurasian Steppes (most infamously perhaps the Huns and later the Mongols). Note that they require open terrain like steppes/plateau/plains to really shine - in default Centaur environment of temperate forests the strategy is significantly less efficient due to undergrowth, cover and poor visibility. Deployed on open ground they could be fearsome, particularly with Centaur stats, particularly if allowed to use the Mounted Archery feats on themselves. Of course, levels in Barbarian would further add devastation to the damage in the form of Whirling Frenzy.

[SangoProduction]

They'd be historical Horse Archers all in one. Very efficient far as military history is concerned; everything from the Roman Legions to the Chariots to even the Chinese Crossbowmen (albeit mostly due to incompetent Chinese leadership) fell before the combination of a horse, a rider, and a composite bow so heavily used by the nomads from the Eurasian Steppes (most infamously perhaps the Huns and later the Mongols). Note that they require open terrain like steppes/plateau/plains to really shine - in default Centaur environment of temperate forests the strategy is significantly less efficient due to undergrowth, cover and poor visibility. Deployed on open ground they could be fearsome, particularly with Centaur stats, particularly if allowed to use the Mounted Archery feats on themselves. Of course, levels in Barbarian would further add devastation to the damage in the form of Whirling Frenzy.

Just noticed something in Whirling Frenzy, as I'm noting here in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?526314-Still-get-Whirling-Frenzy-attack-on-full-move-run-etc&p=22058523#post22058523).

But, if whirling frenzy does what I think it does, then elite barbarian centaur units could be fairly devastating, and virtually impossible to catch while still getting to pelt away at you.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Centaur Fighter 2 (CR 5)
Str 22, Dex 19, Con 17, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus: Longbow, Improved Toughness
Quick Trait (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#quick): +10 ft. land speed, -1 hp/level
+1 Large Composite Longbow (Str +6), Masterwork Large Chain Shirt Barding, Vest of Resistance +1 (CA, as Cloak of Resistance), Arrows


Wood Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#woodElf) Fighter 4 (CR 4)
Str 16, Dex 18, Con 11, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8
Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus: Longbow, Weapon Specialization: Longbow, Mounted Combat
Ride 7 ranks, Handle Animal 5 ranks, masterwork riding saddle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#toolMasterwork) (+2 Ride)
+1 Composite Longbow (Str +3), Masterwork Chain Shirt, Cloak of Resistance +1, Arrows

[Eldariel]

Centaur Fighter 2 (CR 5)
Str 22, Dex 19, Con 17, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus: Longbow, Improved Toughness
Quick Trait (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#quick): +10 ft. land speed, -1 hp/level
+1 Large Composite Longbow (Str +6), Masterwork Large Chain Shirt Barding, Vest of Resistance +1 (CA, as Cloak of Resistance), Arrows


Wood Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#woodElf) Fighter 4 (CR 4)
Str 16, Dex 18, Con 11, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8
Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus: Longbow, Weapon Specialization: Longbow, Mounted Combat
Ride 7 ranks, Handle Animal 5 ranks, masterwork riding saddle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#toolMasterwork) (+2 Ride)
+1 Composite Longbow (Str +3), Masterwork Chain Shirt, Cloak of Resistance +1, Arrows

I'd say Barbarian 2 > Fighter 2. Gets you Quick Movement by default removing the need for traits and Whirling Frenzy, which could be combined with Extra Rage for longetivity and devastating efficiency. They have decent skill points making Knowledge Devotion possible, but they could also use EWP: Greatbow as at Large size this gives them 2d8 damage bow (3d8 with Strongarm Bracers). Average 2-3 damage depending on size increases making it comparable to Weapon Specialization at least.

[SirNibbles]

Note that they require open terrain like steppes/plateau/plains to really shine - in default Centaur environment of temperate forests the strategy is significantly less efficient due to undergrowth, cover and poor visibility.

Ape Totem Barbarian (Unearthed Arcana, page 48) to get a climb speed to climb into trees and Brachiation (Complete Adventurer, page 106) to be able to run through the treetops at your full land speed.

Toss on Horseshoes of Speed (Dungeon Master's Guide, page 260) for the low price of 3,000 GP for an extra 30 foot enhancement bonus to speed (continuous effect). Your height advantage should cancel cover most of the time.

[SangoProduction]

Ape Totem Barbarian (Unearthed Arcana, page 48) to get a climb speed to climb into trees and Brachiation (Complete Adventurer, page 106) to be able to run through the treetops at your full land speed.

Toss on Horseshoes of Speed (Dungeon Master's Guide, page 260) for the low price of 3,000 GP for an extra 30 foot enhancement bonus to speed (continuous effect). Your height advantage should cancel cover most of the time.

Yeah. Horseshoes of Speed are highly efficient and effective at their job. It's probably more than a regular soldier would have still.

I love the idea of a centaur swinging wildly through the treetops as the rider holds on desperately for dear life, trying to not throw up.

[Inevitability]

I love the idea of a centaur swinging wildly through the treetops as the rider holds on desperately for dear life, trying to not throw up.

Can I sig this?

[SangoProduction]

Can I sig this?

Of course.

[Darrin]

Can I polymorph the elves into lances and then throw them while charging?

[OracleofWuffing]

Do you really need to ask permission to polymorph an ally? :smalltongue:

[SangoProduction]

Do you really need to ask permission to polymorph an ally? :smalltongue:

Well, the entire reason centaurs breed elves is as backup weapons, so probably not.

[daremetoidareyo]

The massed charge and heavy cavalry teamwork benefits would make this quite fearsome.

[Darrin]

Well, the entire reason centaurs breed elves is as backup weapons, so probably not.

It occurs to me that the text says the Centaur only needs to employ the lance, so... you don't even need polymorph, just make sure you hire a bunch of elven mercs named "Lance".

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_small/0/5344/1643280-lancer_01.png

[PrismCat21]

just make sure you hire a bunch of elven mercs named "Lance".

Too bad that fabulous bloke is actually named Lancer. :'(


What the Centaurs really need is a Lance that can double as a Bard
http://gazettereview.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/what-happened-to-lance-bass-nsync-203x300.png