Weird PrC requirements..

[Gruftzwerg]

hey mates, I wanna talk about weird PrC requirements. And I would further narrow the topic on those requirements that the PrC itself doesn't seem to improve further.

to give 2 examples:
____________________

- Drunken Master:
Requires evasion and flurry ability which implies that it would be a good PrC for monks. But the problem is that it doesn't progress ANY monk abilities at all. Not even the required flurry.

- Hammer of Moradin:
Requires the ability to cast 2nd lvl divine spells, but doesn't progress or alter your spellcasting in any way.

____________________

I'm not really sure what the intention of the designers was, but to me these kind of things feel really odd and confusing.

- What are your thoughts on these kind of circumstances?

- Do you have other examples?

- What do you think or know about the designer intentions (or quotes?), maybe?

- What do you think about such designs? Working as intended or are they just misconceptions?

[danielxcutter]

Arcane Archer. It doesn't even progress caster level, let alone spell slots or spells known.

[Inevitability]

Vassal of Bahamut is a class intended to be entered by fighters or paladins. Amongst its requirements is: 'must have single-handedly slain a juvenile (or older) red dragon'.

That's right: the class supposedly enterable at level 8 wants you to kill an under-CR'ed CR 10 monster that's likely to have minions, traps, or natural hazards surrounding it, on your own. I'd hesitate before going on that quest if I were a duskblade or swordsage, let alone a fighter.

[Florian]

I guess a lot of PrC will come up with "explanation" requirements. Arcane Archer´s a good example. Why can you self-enchant arrows? Well because you´re adept at arcane magic already (Hint: Magic Weapon).

[danielxcutter]

I guess a lot of PrC will come up with "explanation" requirements. Arcane Archer´s a good example. Why can you self-enchant arrows? Well because you´re adept at arcane magic already (Hint: Magic Weapon).

Well, point taken.

Oh, that reminds me - Spring Attack for several TWF-related PrCs, because of course you can TWF while Spring Attacking(Well, you actually can if you're a Tempest, I guess).

[noce]

I guess a lot of PrC will come up with "explanation" requirements. Arcane Archer´s a good example. Why can you self-enchant arrows? Well because you´re adept at arcane magic already (Hint: Magic Weapon).

The same reasoning applies to Drunken Master and Hammer of Moradin.
The former is a monk that follows an unusual way of life and a particular style of martial arts.
The latter is a devoted warrior of Moradin, a divine champion that specializes at fighting the enemies of his race.

As a side note, personally I highly prefer Hammer of Moradin to, for example, Warpriest: while HoM doesn't advance spellcasting, it provides solid class features in exchange.

[AlanBruce]

hey mates, I wanna talk about weird PrC requirements. And I would further narrow the topic on those requirements that the PrC itself doesn't seem to improve further.

to give 2 examples:
____________________

- Drunken Master:
Requires evasion and flurry ability which implies that it would be a good PrC for monks. But the problem is that it doesn't progress ANY monk abilities at all. Not even the required flurry.



Can't speak for the other PrC, but in my game, I have a rogue/monk/drunken master and we house ruled that monk levels stack with Drunken Master for speed, unarmed damage and AC bonus. It isn't much of a power boost, but if it makes the player happy and able to contribute in fights (he is, actually), then all the better.

That's one thing about that PrC that makes me wonder why cripple an already weak class even more.

[ShurikVch]

- Drunken Master:
Requires evasion and flurry ability which implies that it would be a good PrC for monks. But the problem is that it doesn't progress ANY monk abilities at all. Not even the required flurry.
____________________

I'm not really sure what the intention of the designers was, but to me these kind of things feel really odd and confusing.

- What are your thoughts on these kind of circumstances?

- What do you think or know about the designer intentions (or quotes?), maybe?

- What do you think about such designs? Working as intended or are they just misconceptions?Note: in 3.0, Drunken Master required only Evasion - there was no flurry requirement

Also, no IUS requirement

And Tumble requirement was only 6

And was able to Rage

And have full BAB

3.5 nerfhammer have no mercy for non-casters :smallannoyed:

[Florian]

That's one thing about that PrC that makes me wonder why cripple an already weak class even more.

Funny thing is, the Monk was actually not that weak back in 3.0, at least when you played it "by to book". Consider that the original PHB only talked about the Dungeon, used random loot as standard and hat Wizards at a disadvantage by having to hope for good scrolls or capturing spell books to add to their repertoire. The Monk class had the slight advantage of auto-scaling features and being able to run independent of loot, compared to other classes.

I think people tend to forget that 3.0 was closer to AD&D 2nd then people like to admit, like favoring good attribute rolls with being able to get into feat chains or qualify for PrC...

[Necroticplague]

Master of Shrouds. Requires Augment Summoning, an ability that gives CON and STR bonuses to your summons. Their main class feature is about summoning incorporeal undead. Who don't have either STR or CON to boost.

Spelldancer requires a bunch of crappy feats to qualify for. Notably absent, however, is a requirement to have a metamagic feat. This despite their only real class feature being able to get discounts on metamagic.

[Jon_Dahl]

Being evil to become an assassin.

[noce]

Being evil to become an assassin.

The avenger exists for this reason.

[GilesTheCleric]

Heartwarder (FaP 196) requires Spell Focus (Enchantment) for entry, among other feats (eg. everyone's favourites, Dodge and Mobility) At 6th level, it grants you Spell Focus (Enchantment). But this time, it doesn't apply to all Enchantment spells. That would make sense. No, it only applies to non-Silent spells with a V component.

[Jay R]

- Drunken Master:
Requires evasion and flurry ability which implies that it would be a good PrC for monks. But the problem is that it doesn't progress ANY monk abilities at all. Not even the required flurry.

"Reality" is very rarely a good response to a question about D&D rules, but it's the actual answer in this case.

There really is a drunken style of kung fu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zui_quan), and it uses evasion to stay out of range, and flurries of blows when finally in range.

[The Viscount]

Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil requires Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus (Abjuration), the school that doesn't have very many effects with saves. It is at least an abjuration class, and it's possible they realized how grotesquely powerful it was and so put on two distasteful taxes.

[Zaq]

None of the PrCs from the Truenamer chapter of Tome of Magic advance Truenaming.

[JustIgnoreMe]

... No-one mentioned the eunuch sorcerer prestige class yet?

[Buufreak]

None of the PrCs from the Truenamer chapter of Tome of Magic advance Truenaming.

I always thought that was so weird! But I like the fiend binder enough to simply accept it and not question it further. No need to whip that decent class into truenamer-related submission.

[DrMotives]

Master of Shrouds. Requires Augment Summoning, an ability that gives CON and STR bonuses to your summons. Their main class feature is about summoning incorporeal undead. Who don't have either STR or CON to boost.

Interesting. I'm wondering if a homebrew addition by giving them a +CHA version of Augment Summoning to their incorporeal summons would help patch that in something that makes sense, in-character. Especially if you also threw in a PF-style adding CHA bonus to HP for them. Since anything incorporeal has a deflection to AC keyed off of charisma anyway.

[TIPOT]

Invisible Blade, an otherwise nice little melee/feint knife fighting class that requires point blank shot and far shot.

[Gruftzwerg]

Can't speak for the other PrC, but in my game, I have a rogue/monk/drunken master and we house ruled that monk levels stack with Drunken Master for speed, unarmed damage and AC bonus. It isn't much of a power boost, but if it makes the player happy and able to contribute in fights (he is, actually), then all the better.

That's one thing about that PrC that makes me wonder why cripple an already weak class even more.

I get why you felt the need to homebrew it to your demands (but not the intention of this thread to alter the rules btw^^).
___________________________


The same reasoning applies to Drunken Master and Hammer of Moradin.
The former is a monk that follows an unusual way of life and a particular style of martial arts.
The latter is a devoted warrior of Moradin, a divine champion that specializes at fighting the enemies of his race.
well, unusual or not. The lack of unarmed dmg progress besides from improvised weapons is really awful for a martial arts PrC.

Well the Moradin explanation is more fitting I guess. The Moradin cleric realizes that he would be a better follower/servant of Moradin, when he would live a more martial life than the life of a regular cleric.
___________________________


Heartwarder (FaP 196) requires Spell Focus (Enchantment) for entry, among other feats (eg. everyone's favourites, Dodge and Mobility) At 6th level, it grants you Spell Focus (Enchantment). But this time, it doesn't apply to all Enchantment spells. That would make sense. No, it only applies to non-Silent spells with a V component.
Well this is iffy. Cause 2 times regular Spell Focus (Enchantment) wouldn't stack. But since the PrC ability isn't targeting Enchantment Spells in general, it's targeting a separate stack and thus both bonuses can apply on the same spell. (Other option would have been to overwrite the bonus of the feat and increase it to +2, but somehow they felt that you should have the +2 bonus only for Enchantment Spells with a Voice component.)
___________________________


"Reality" is very rarely a good response to a question about D&D rules, but it's the actual answer in this case.

There really is a drunken style of kung fu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zui_quan), and it uses evasion to stay out of range, and flurries of blows when finally in range.

I know of drunken boxing and that evasion and flurries are part of it.
The problem I have is, that I bet my pant on the fact that said "monks/students" that "abound regular styles" and start with Drunken Fist style, still train to improve defense/evasion, their striking power and their mobility as a regular student/monk would do. But the Drunken Master PrC doesn't reflect it at all. It doesn't progress that what it demands/requires, which is really sad and disappointing.

[KillianHawkeye]

Invisible Blade, an otherwise nice little melee/feint knife fighting class that requires point blank shot and far shot.

Daggers are also good for throwing........

[zergling.exe]

well, unusual or not. The lack of unarmed dmg progress besides from improvised weapons is really awful for a martial arts PrC.

I don't get why this is so awful. Monks are the only martial class with a scaling progression for their weapon damage. If the monk had never had it in the first place, would it be missed? (Aside from getting a bump up to d6 or d8, d3 is rather low.)

[DEMON]

Daggers are also good for throwing........

And yet the designer admitted the pre-reqs are wrong for the published incarnation of the PrC, as the original one included the abilities of Master Thrower.

The PrCs got split, but the pre-reqs weren't adjusted to reflect the melee and ranged focus divorce.

In fact, I'd say the Invisible Blade is kind of a poster child for weird PrC pre-reqs.

[Gruftzwerg]

I don't get why this is so awful. Monks are the only martial class with a scaling progression for their weapon damage. If the monk had never had it in the first place, would it be missed? (Aside from getting a bump up to d6 or d8, d3 is rather low.)

cause the requirements & fluff text implies that it is a PrC meant for monk and thus should at least progress the baseline monk stuff as other monk related PrC do (e.g. unarmed dmg, AC bonus, movement speed bonus and a few rare even flurry).
Do you see any reason why Drunken Master pretends to be a monk PrC and not to give the same progress as others would do it?

Sure I wouldn't miss it if monks wouldn't have it.

And I wouldn't be even arguing if:

a) most monk related PrC wouldn't progress monk base abilities.

or

b) Drunken Master would somehow compensate the loss of the progress enough with its own abilities, which is not the chase. Everything you get a clumsy rage like ability where you need 10 lvl to get the most out of it(s playstyle/mechanics). You lose on dmg, movement, defense everything any other regular Monk PrC would give you..^^

[Esprit15]

No mention of Fochlucan Lyricist, pretty much the only PrC that requires three different classes to enter?

Requirements

To qualify to become a Fochlucan lyrist, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.

Skills: Decipher Script 7 ranks, Diplomacy 7 ranks, Gather Information 7 ranks, Knowledge (nature) 7 ranks, Perform (string instruments) 13 ranks, Sleight of Hand 7 ranks, Speak Language (Druidic).

Alignment: Neutral good, neutral, chaotic neutral, or neutral evil.

Spells: Ability to cast 1st-level arcane and divine spells.

Special: Bardic knowledge and evasion abilities.
So I need Bardic Knowledge (Bard), Evasion (Rogue), Divine Casting, and Speak Language (Druidic). And then it doesn't progress anything from rogue, not even the extra skill points. If I wanted to theurge Druid and Bard, I could just enter Arcane Heirophant and not have to delay my casting even more with levels of rogue.

[MesiDoomstalker]

No mention of Fochlucan Lyricist, pretty much the only PrC that requires three different classes to enter?

So I need Bardic Knowledge (Bard), Evasion (Rogue), Divine Casting, and Speak Language (Druidic). And then it doesn't progress anything from rogue, not even the extra skill points. If I wanted to theurge Druid and Bard, I could just enter Arcane Heirophant and not have to delay my casting even more with levels of rogue.

I believe this is a relic of AD&D where Bard was, essentially, a Prestige Class that Druid's could go into (for reasons). Don't quote me on that though.

[Pex]

Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil

Requires Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus in Abjuration, a school with hardly any spells that require a saving throw to benefit from the feats. The first spell to do so is a 4th level spell, Dismissal, which while not a bad spell has nothing to do with the theme of the Prestige Class. There are still too few Abjuration spells with saving throws. Unfortunately Prismatic Sphere, the 9th level spell that is the epitome of the prestige class, does which is probably why those feats are the prerequisite.


Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil requires Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus (Abjuration), the school that doesn't have very many effects with saves. It is at least an abjuration class, and it's possible they realized how grotesquely powerful it was and so put on two distasteful taxes.

Grr, didn't see this!
:smallbiggrin:

[Bucky]

"Our Iot7V playtesters keep complaining that it's underpowered because nothing ever fails a save against their capstone."

"Maybe they're just getting unlucky?"

"No, they must not be optimized enough at using it."

(beat)

"I know, we can add Greater Spell Focus to the prerequisites! The +2 to DC will be just the power boost they need."

[KillingAScarab]

I believe this is a relic of AD&D where Bard was, essentially, a Prestige Class that Druid's could go into (for reasons). Don't quote me on that though.My understanding is that you had to start as a fighter, then dual-class to thief for awhile (but only at certain levels) and meet minimum attributes. Also, despite the dual-classing requirement, the book said half-elves could do it (https://forum.rpg.net/archive/index.php/t-710521.html). This article (http://www.cayzle.com/screeds/book005.html) about emulating the 1st edition bard also mentions bardic colleges, so I suppose a DM could potentially limit this further if a character didn't know/upset the right people. The entry for Fochlucan Lyricist also says that members of that college are called upon to be spies, but Evasion really isn't the same thing as spying.

[Inevitability]

Daggers are also good for throwing........

You can't feint with ranged attacks, while feinting is the entire point of invisible blade.

[Khedrac]

No mention of Fochlucan Lyricist, pretty much the only PrC that requires three different classes to enter?
I believe this is a relic of AD&D where Bard was, essentially, a Prestige Class that Druid's could go into (for reasons). Don't quote me on that though.
Actually it is deliberate attempt to re-create the 1st Ed AD&D bard in 3.5 (the 2nd Ed bard was it's own class).

I am surprised at no mention of the Ardent Diletlante, a prestige class with increasing requirements as you level through (new requirements at levels 4, 7 and 10). It is also quite hard to enter without using a third class, but can be done with two (bard and temple raider).

[DrKerosene]

No mention of Fochlucan Lyricist, pretty much the only PrC that requires three different classes to enter?

So I need Bardic Knowledge (Bard), Evasion (Rogue), Divine Casting, and Speak Language (Druidic). And then it doesn't progress anything from rogue, not even the extra skill points. If I wanted to theurge Druid and Bard, I could just enter Arcane Heirophant and not have to delay my casting even more with levels of rogue.

I would allow a Hellbred ("former" evil Druid), Bard5/Ur PriestX/ with a Ring of Evasion to use the PrC. I'd probably allow Sublime Chord too, at that point.


I've used Drunken Master for NPCs a few times, but my Players always avoided getting into the bar fights. I've always want to use one.

Some prestige classes seem like they are intended for neutered/low-magic games like D20 Modern Casters. You know, when you're bored of Cleric+Wizard+Druid+.... I've never found a group willing to mess around with level 10+ characters who are effectively all Hexblades, Paladins, Rangers, etc.

[Pugwampy]

Vassal of Bahamut is a class intended to be entered by fighters or paladins. Amongst its requirements is: 'must have single-handedly slain a juvenile (or older) red dragon'.

That's right: the class supposedly enterable at level 8 wants you to kill an under-CR'ed CR 10 monster that's likely to have minions, traps, or natural hazards surrounding it, on your own. I'd hesitate before going on that quest if I were a duskblade or swordsage, let alone a fighter.


Thats not a problem . Play a DND basic game set . There is a large dragon at the end of the dungeon that can be defeated by level 2 and 3 players. :smallbiggrin:

[GrayDeath]

I am pretty sure all Dragons are defeatable by Level 1 Players, if their Characters are capable enough. Doesn`t help much with the PrC though. :P

BTW untill today I have no Idea why a Kensai should have Skillpts in Ride. Or less than full BAB.....^^

[danielxcutter]

I am pretty sure all Dragons are defeatable by Level 1 Players, if their Characters are capable enough. Doesn`t help much with the PrC though. :P

BTW untill today I have no Idea why a Kensai should have Skillpts in Ride. Or less than full BAB.....^^

Or Concentration... it came out before ToB.

[noce]

BTW untill today I have no Idea why a Kensai should have Skillpts in Ride. Or less than full BAB.....^^

I'm currently playing a Kensai and my DM changed the Ride requirement in K(nobility).
If you want to give the class a Chivalrous theme, Knowledge Nobility is more appropriate than Ride I think.

The reason why they didn't do this is because Paladins and Fighters both have Ride, while only Paladins have K(nobility). Curiously, Monks don't have Ride, either.

[danielxcutter]

I'm currently playing a Kensai and my DM changed the Ride requirement in K(nobility).
If you want to give the class a Chivalrous theme, Knowledge Nobility is more appropriate than Ride I think.

The reason why they didn't do this is because Paladins and Fighters both have Ride, while only Paladins have K(nobility). Curiously, Monks don't have Ride, either.

Yeah, that sounds better IMO, at least as a house rule. Did he replace Concentration with something else, too?

[Necroticplague]

Concentration at least makes sense from a fluff perspective. Kensai need Concentration for the same reason Diamond Mind uses it as a maneuver skill. The fact they derive very little benefit from it until they actually have the PRC is just a basic mechanical failing.

[noce]

Yeah, that sounds better IMO, at least as a house rule. Did he replace Concentration with something else, too?

No, he didn't and I think Concentration is a right requirement for Kensai.
I roleplay my dwarf Kensai as a contemplative and thoughtful warrior, so fluff-wise Concentration fits perfectly.

Also, my Reflexes and the Power Surge class feaeture both use the Concentration skill, so Concentration is also mechanically useful.

In my case, being him a Warblade 1 / Fighter 4 / EWM 1 / Kensai 10, Concentration is also useful for Moment of Perfect Mind (but this is not the point).

[Jay R]

... so I suppose a DM could potentially limit this further if a character didn't know/upset the right people.

In my experience, further limiting it would have had no effect, since no 1e player I ever met tried to play a bard.

[Honest Tiefling]

I'm surprised that the Blackguard hasn't come up...With its wonderful requirement of 5 ranks in hide. When it is a prestige class meant for fallen paladins, who don't really need to learn how to hide to become fallen and swear themselves to demonic masters. I'm sorry, Mister Hopebeacon, we cannot accept you as a fallen paladin because you neglected to learn how to hide behind a tree.

Not to mention, most, if not all, artwork of a Blackguard typically has them in spikey black full-plate, thus negating all of those ranks in hide.

[Thurbane]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?245740-3-X-Weirdest-entry-reqs



Green Star Adept (CArc): must chow down on a bunch of pseudo magical metal *nom nom nom*
Eunuch Warlock (OA): must have *parts* removed


You could do the entry reqs for Beast Heart Adept, Pale Master and Dungeon Delver all in one go, if you're trapped in a cave-in inside a dungeon with an undead for a week. :smallbiggrin:

Edit to the second one: also, lived underground for a year. A lot of races can get away this this as back-story.

[Remuko]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?245740-3-X-Weirdest-entry-reqs




Edit to the second one: also, lived underground for a year. A lot of races can get away this this as back-story.

Given knowing what a Eunuch IS I don't think that the pre-requisite is weird.

[Thurbane]

No mention of Fochlucan Lyricist, pretty much the only PrC that requires three different classes to enter?

So I need Bardic Knowledge (Bard), Evasion (Rogue), Divine Casting, and Speak Language (Druidic). And then it doesn't progress anything from rogue, not even the extra skill points. If I wanted to theurge Druid and Bard, I could just enter Arcane Heirophant and not have to delay my casting even more with levels of rogue.

...this is a historical throwback: in 1E, to become a Bard you specifically had to have levels in Fighter, Rogue (Thief) and Druid. "Fochlucan Lyricist" was one of the "level titles" (another 1E thing) that Bard could achieve.

In it's way, the 1E Bard was the very first PrC.


Given knowing what a Eunuch IS I don't think that the pre-requisite is weird.

Maybe not weird in that sense, but pretty darn weird in comparison to most other 3E reqs.


Just read the OP: just general weirdness isn't the point of the thread. :smallredface:

[danielxcutter]

I'm surprised that the Blackguard hasn't come up...With its wonderful requirement of 5 ranks in hide. When it is a prestige class meant for fallen paladins, who don't really need to learn how to hide to become fallen and swear themselves to demonic masters. I'm sorry, Mister Hopebeacon, we cannot accept you as a fallen paladin because you neglected to learn how to hide behind a tree.

Not to mention, most, if not all, artwork of a Blackguard typically has them in spikey black full-plate, thus negating all of those ranks in hide.

LOL :smallbiggrin:

Also, that's probably why WotC made the Shadowbane Inquisitor, the PrC that makes Falling soooo much easier.

[Gruftzwerg]

I would like to thank everyone so far for all the interesting info. I am enjoying this thread more than expected. When I started the thread, it was one of those confused "wtf, just WHAT.. WHY??" moments, where I was experimenting with a Drunken Master lvl2 dip in a build that needed to squeeze in another 2 lvls of flurry progress.

I was just disappointed of the state of Drunken Master and Hammer of Moradin did also pop into my mind (something I intended to make a thread since a longer while).

I needed to vent off a lil bit with a lil "rant" thread about my confusion and disappointment.
Now, somehow this has turned really informative and joyful. Thx again for all the nice info =)
Keep it coming if you still have unmentioned stuff.

[The Viscount]

...this is a historical throwback: in 1E, to become a Bard you specifically had to have levels in Fighter, Rogue (Thief) and Druid. "Fochlucan Lyricist" was one of the "level titles" (another 1E thing) that Bard could achieve.

In it's way, the 1E Bard was the very first PrC.
Is that where spinemeld warrior gets it? That makes a little more sense, though I can't imagine that spinemeld warrior is based off of anything from 1E. It does make it the only 3.5 prc to have level titles, and some very ornate ones at that.


LOL :smallbiggrin:

Also, that's probably why WotC made the Shadowbane Inquisitor, the PrC that makes Falling soooo much easier.

Shadowbane Inquisitor is my favorite, and I love the fall narrative it sets up. However, it's got some weirdness to it. While the prerequisites are mostly standard paladin fare, it requires that you have sneak attack. While that builds with the theme of the class, it's a little awkward to be that much of the paladin's paladin with a level of rogue. It also has the situation where a class feature says you don't lose features for not having good alignment, but if you fall as a paladin you'll lose detect evil and turn undead, and be disqualified that way.

Cultist of the Shattered Peak has a prerequisite that you can't be an arcane caster because the cult is weird and hates arcane magic. The class then... gives you arcane casting.

[Thurbane]

Is that where spinemeld warrior gets it? That makes a little more sense, though I can't imagine that spinemeld warrior is based off of anything from 1E. It does make it the only 3.5 prc to have level titles, and some very ornate ones at that.

Never noticed that before: yes, quite similar to how level titles were assigned in 1E.

[tomandtish]

I believe this is a relic of AD&D where Bard was, essentially, a Prestige Class that Druid's could go into (for reasons). Don't quote me on that though.

Not quite.


My understanding is that you had to start as a fighter, then dual-class to thief for awhile (but only at certain levels) and meet minimum attributes. Also, despite the dual-classing requirement, the book said half-elves could do it (https://forum.rpg.net/archive/index.php/t-710521.html). This article (http://www.cayzle.com/screeds/book005.html) about emulating the 1st edition bard also mentions bardic colleges, so I suppose a DM could potentially limit this further if a character didn't know/upset the right people. The entry for Fochlucan Lyricist also says that members of that college are called upon to be spies, but Evasion really isn't the same thing as spying.

Closer. This actually came up in one of the previous Gish threads.


Bards begin play as fighters, and they must remain exclusively fighters
until they have achieved at least the 5th level of experience. Anytime
thereafter, and in any event prior to attaining the 8th level, they must
change their class to that of thieves. Again, sometime between 5th and 9th
level of ability, bards must leave off thieving and begin clerical studies as
druids; but at this time they are actually bards and under druidical
tutelage. Bards must fulfill the requirements in all the above classes before
progressing to Bards Table 1. They must always remain neutral, but can be
chaotic, evil, good or lawful neutral if they wish.

Part of it is that further down they specifically mention druid spells (which is what they cast then) but they DON'T mention other druid abilities. So they DIDN'T get any of the other druid abilities. So druidic studies but not actually a druid.

They specify druidic tutelage because you might have to seek out a druid teacher (if your DM actually required it). Training with a suitable teacher used to be one of the requirements, although not many people actually required it.

The old 1E dual-classing rules were murder (to put it politely).

[noce]

Is that where spinemeld warrior gets it? It does make it the only 3.5 prc to have level titles, and some very ornate ones at that.

Actually, a Kensai becomes a Ki Warlord at level 10, so Spinemeld Warrior isn't the only one.

[Waker]

Dragonkith from Draconomicon:
Special:Must be chosen by a dragon of the same alignment. If a dragonkith ever ceases its relationship with the dragon, or the dragon dies, the character loses all special abilities gained from this prestige class.. So it's like when a paladin falls. Except that it is independent of your actions and the DM can either be a nice guy by granting the dragon plot armor or killing it and earning your enmity forever. Note also that RAW, not RAI, if the dragon dies and is returned to life you still don't get your class features back.

[Hackulator]

OP is confusing "weird" for "not optimized".

Like, when I read the OP and saw "drunken master" I assume he was going to be mentioning the requirement that you going out for a night of insane binge drinking with a group of other drunken masters.

[The Viscount]

That does remind me of Ravager, which is a PrC with an entry requirement of letting a band of higher level characters beat on you with deadly force. The examples they provide could easily kill a good chunk of the applicants.

[Thurbane]

OP is confusing "weird" for "not optimized".

Like, when I read the OP and saw "drunken master" I assume he was going to be mentioning the requirement that you going out for a night of insane binge drinking with a group of other drunken masters.

Same.

But on the topic of craptacular PrC reqs...requiring casting, then not advancing it. Dragon Disciple I'm looking at you!

There are other PrCs guilty of the same thing.

There are a couple of niche uses for a Dragoon Disciple dip, but overall, it should have been at least a 1/2 casting progression PrC. I think that's how Pathfinder handles it?

Just had a look, Pathfinder makes it 7/10 casting. I don't like much of the rest of what they've done with it, though. Becoming a Half-dragon was the core concept of the PrC

[Psyren]

- All the variant kineticists (e.g. sonokineticist) must still set fire to a structure to watch it burn.
- Thrallherd needs Inquisitor... why exactly? :smallconfused:



Just had a look, Pathfinder makes it 7/10 casting. I don't like much of the rest of what they've done with it, though. Becoming a Half-dragon was the core concept of the PrC

Pathfinder also has Prestigious Spellcaster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/prestigious-spellcaster/) so you can bring it back up to 10/10 if you want.

[ShurikVch]

Same.

But on the topic of craptacular PrC reqs...requiring casting, then not advancing it. Dragon Disciple I'm looking at you!

There are other PrCs guilty of the same thing.

There are a couple of niche uses for a Dragoon Disciple dip, but overall, it should have been at least a 1/2 casting progression PrC. I think that's how Pathfinder handles it?

Just had a look, Pathfinder makes it 7/10 casting. I don't like much of the rest of what they've done with it, though. Becoming a Half-dragon was the core concept of the PrC Dragon Disciple's Ability Boost, Claws and Bite, Natural Armor Increase, and Wings may be useful for some melee character who just dipped into Duskblade

Or alternately: casters don't get more spell slots/day after the 20th level; Dragon Disciple with the Bonus Spells is one of the very few ways to get more spells/day without relying on gear or blowing feats on Extra Slot


- All the variant kineticists (e.g. sonokineticist) must still set fire to a structure to watch it burn.Variant Pyrokineticist (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625e)
Special: Must have damaged or destroyed a structure or object by the use of a power of the chosen energy focus just to see what would happen or must have survived a traumatic experience such as being trapped in a burning building where someone close to the character died.

[Hackulator]

Same.

But on the topic of craptacular PrC reqs...requiring casting, then not advancing it. Dragon Disciple I'm looking at you!

There are other PrCs guilty of the same thing.

There are a couple of niche uses for a Dragoon Disciple dip, but overall, it should have been at least a 1/2 casting progression PrC. I think that's how Pathfinder handles it?

Just had a look, Pathfinder makes it 7/10 casting. I don't like much of the rest of what they've done with it, though. Becoming a Half-dragon was the core concept of the PrC

I feel you are confusing the problem here. The problem is not that such PrCs do not advance casting, the problem is that casting is overpowered so there is really almost nothing in the game worth giving it up for from an optimization perspective.

[Psyren]

Variant Pyrokineticist (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625e)

Oopsie


I feel you are confusing the problem here. The problem is not that such PrCs do not advance casting, the problem is that casting is overpowered so there is really almost nothing in the game worth giving it up for from an optimization perspective.

With the corollary that 10/10 (and 5/5) casting PrCs exist, so even if you were willing to PrC out, there are lots of choices that lose nothing.

[Lorddenorstrus]

I feel you are confusing the problem here. The problem is not that such PrCs do not advance casting, the problem is that casting is overpowered so there is really almost nothing in the game worth giving it up for from an optimization perspective.

Well this is an optimizer board forum so..... you're the black sheep in the room now. Also prestige classes are supposed to be advancements and power ups so to speak. Upgrades from base classes. Any time a prestige class out right makes you weaker it wasn't designed correctly. So it fits the topic perfectly.

[Thurbane]

Dragon Disciple's Ability Boost, Claws and Bite, Natural Armor Increase, and Wings may be useful for some melee character who just dipped into Duskblade

Or alternately: casters don't get more spell slots/day after the 20th level; Dragon Disciple with the Bonus Spells is one of the very few ways to get more spells/day without relying on gear or blowing feats on Extra Slot

Variant Pyrokineticist (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625e)

Absolutely. As I said, there are niche spots that DD can fill.


I feel you are confusing the problem here. The problem is not that such PrCs do not advance casting, the problem is that casting is overpowered so there is really almost nothing in the game worth giving it up for from an optimization perspective.

In a topic about PrCs with reqs that the PrC itself takes little or no advantage of, I think I was fairly on point. Otherwise, yes, I agree with your assessment.


Well this is an optimizer board forum so..... you're the black sheep in the room now. Also prestige classes are supposed to be advancements and power ups so to speak. Upgrades from base classes. Any time a prestige class out right makes you weaker it wasn't designed correctly. So it fits the topic perfectly.

It's funny - usually I'm the one that is the "low op" black sheep. :smalltongue:

[Thealtruistorc]

I believe this is a relic of AD&D where Bard was, essentially, a Prestige Class that Druid's could go into (for reasons). Don't quote me on that though.

That kind of makes sense, given that the term "Bard" originated from a sect of Druids in Ireland who recorded history through song and poetry. I wonder why there are no options implementing this anywhere in 3.5 or Pathfinder.

[A_S]

Order of the Bow Initiate requires Rapid Shot, which is reasonable for an archer class. Unfortunately, its main class feature is a ranged attack that gets bonus damage, but can be only used as a standard action. So once you start taking the class, you have to stop using Rapid Shot :(

[Telonius]

I'm surprised that the Blackguard hasn't come up...With its wonderful requirement of 5 ranks in hide. When it is a prestige class meant for fallen paladins, who don't really need to learn how to hide to become fallen and swear themselves to demonic masters. I'm sorry, Mister Hopebeacon, we cannot accept you as a fallen paladin because you neglected to learn how to hide behind a tree.

Not to mention, most, if not all, artwork of a Blackguard typically has them in spikey black full-plate, thus negating all of those ranks in hide.

Improved Sunder and Cleave, too, from a base that's notoriously feat-poor. Honestly, I'd think that some Paladin orders wouldn't allow people to join if they know how to Sunder a weapon. :smallbiggrin:

[danielxcutter]

Improved Sunder and Cleave, too, from a base that's notoriously feat-poor. Honestly, I'd think that some Paladin orders wouldn't allow people to join if they know how to Sunder a weapon. :smallbiggrin:

Hmm... what about Cleave? If it works with Smite Evil, then that one might not be too much of a problem.

Also Shadowbane Inquisitor gives Improved Sunder as a bonus feat anyways. :smalltongue:

[Thurbane]

People hate on Cleave a lot. In my time in 3.5, I've actually found it fairly useful. I mean, not a must have, but a nice little chance at an extra attack. I think the default argument is that once you stop being able to one shot low level opponents it becomes useless. To me, an extra attack is an extra attack, even if it it somewhat conditional.

In our first run through ToEE, the dwarf fighter killed a Wyvern, got a Cleave onto the spellcaster riding it, then critted him to death. :smalltongue:

Won't work with Smite, however, only the first successful target gets the Smite.

[danielxcutter]

People hate on Cleave a lot. In my time in 3.5, I've actually found it fairly useful. I mean, not a must have, but a nice little chance at an extra attack. I think the default argument is that once you stop being able to one shot low level opponents it becomes useless. To me, an extra attack is an extra attack, even if it it somewhat conditional.

In our first run through ToEE, the dwarf fighter killed a Wyvern, got a Cleave onto the spellcaster riding it, then critted him to death. :smalltongue:

Won't work with Smite, however, only the first successful target gets the Smite.

Ah, damn. :smallannoyed: What about sneak attack, if all the targets are flatfooted/lost their Dex AC?

[Luccan]

Or Concentration... it came out before ToB.

CW samurai got saddled with it to. But unlike samurai, the kensai has several abilities that use a concentration check.


Power Surge (Ex): At 2nd level, a kensai gains the ability to make a DC 15 Concentration check as a move action
to focus his energy and spirit. If he succeeds, he gains +8 to his Strength for a number of rounds equal to one-half his class level. Each time after the first that a kensai successfully uses this ability in a single 24-hour period, the check DC increases by 5.


Withstand (Ex): When a kensai of 5th level or higher is forced to make a Reflex save to avoid damage from an area
effect spell (such as a fireball), he can make a Concentration check instead of a Reflex save to resist taking full damage. If a kensai has the evasion or improved evasion ability, those benefits apply on this Concentration check as well.


Instill (Ex): Once per day, a kensai of 8th level or higher may take a full-round action to make a Concentration check
(DC 10 + target’s HD or character level) to impart some of his own ability into a willing ally he can touch. The kensai then transfers some of his power to the ally: He subtracts up to 1 point per class level from his base attack bonus and/or any or all of his base save bonuses and transfers the same amount to the recipient. The kensai regains the instilled power 1 hour later, when it transfers back out of the ally. If the ally dies before the instilled power is transferred back, the kensai must make a Fortitude save (DC 5 + target’s HD or character level) or die as well. If he succeeds, he immediately gets his instilled powers back.

So, there is a reason. And I guess if you don't want to dip paladin or monk, samurai is the other way to be a kensai and maintain some martial prowess.

[danielxcutter]

CW samurai got saddled with it to. But unlike samurai, the kensai has several abilities that use a concentration check.
So, there is a reason. And I guess if you don't want to dip paladin or monk, samurai is the other way to be a kensai and maintain some martial prowess.

I guess, but it would be nice if Concentration had uses before entering the PrC.

[DrMotives]

Ah, damn. :smallannoyed: What about sneak attack, if all the targets are flatfooted/lost their Dex AC?

Should be fine. Sneak attack works just fine on iterative attacks, attacks of opportunity, all attack rolls where otherwise the normal conditions are met. I don't know how often a great cleave or whirlwind attack will meet the criteria for sneak attack, but nothing in the RAW seems to stop that.

[danielxcutter]

Should be fine. Sneak attack works just fine on iterative attacks, attacks of opportunity, all attack rolls where otherwise the normal conditions are met. I don't know how often a great cleave or whirlwind attack will meet the criteria for sneak attack, but nothing in the RAW seems to stop that.

Huh. Guess Blackguards do have some nifty tricks up their sleeves after all.

[ShurikVch]

How about the Cataclysm Mage (Explorer's Handbook)?
Technically, Personal Prophecy is a class feature, but you can't get a new one without fulfilling the previous, thus - may be incapable to take levels past 3rd (or 6th)

d12
Prophecy


1
Speak with a giant who never dreams


2
Die


3
Journey to Khyber and return with the head of a tentacled beast


4
Sleep in the bed of a demon


5
Become blood brother or sister to a Seren barbarian


6
Be of two spirits in one body


7
Swim across a lake of fi re


8
Drink water from the mouth of a serpent


9
Be swallowed whole


10
Walk four days and four nights in the Mournland


11
Hold a dragon in your hand


12
Defeat your twin, as from a mirror of opposition, in single combat; twin is immediately conjured

[Guizonde]

i had a friend who tried his damnedest to become a drunken master. he would've had the campaign continued (crashed and burned by irl). all he lacked iirc was the bab score to get into it. the "night of revels with a band of drunken masters" was what his character called a boring tuesday evening. he drank his weight in alcohol to get out of a deal with a devil (he weighed 17kg, but still. really impressive). he set a town on fire twice to get rid of an undead infestation by blowing up a brewery (and using the stronger spirits inside to breathe fire). he avoided an encounter with an arena by a drinking contest (which he won), and we found a monastery of trappist monks, which proceeded to drink him under the table after 36 hours of straight feasting. when my cleric cast sobriety on him, it reverted his state from "poisoned" to "drunk" (dm had some plot-strength poison... don't ask, we still rage about the fact his monk was poisoned 5 years later). he lost bonuses to dex and wis when he was sober. were he a cleric, i'm pretty sure he'd have "summon (fire) water" as a cantrip, if you'll pardon the pun.

here's the kicker: the player is a teetotaler who doesn't like the taste or the effects of alcohol. that's what i call roleplay. he said that i inspired some of the antics of his drunk 35lb monk. i don't know if that's an insult or a compliment, knowing his monk forced a goat into wearing pants just to see if he could.

[VoxRationis]

People hate on Cleave a lot. In my time in 3.5, I've actually found it fairly useful. I mean, not a must have, but a nice little chance at an extra attack. I think the default argument is that once you stop being able to one shot low level opponents it becomes useless. To me, an extra attack is an extra attack, even if it it somewhat conditional.

In our first run through ToEE, the dwarf fighter killed a Wyvern, got a Cleave onto the spellcaster riding it, then critted him to death. :smalltongue:

Won't work with Smite, however, only the first successful target gets the Smite.

People hate on Cleave a lot? Wow. In my experience, having Cleave (and later Great Cleave) vastly improves the efficacy of fighters.

[danielxcutter]

People hate on Cleave a lot? Wow. In my experience, having Cleave (and later Great Cleave) vastly improves the efficacy of fighters.

Depends on what kinds of encounters you have. If they're usually just a few tough enemies that are hard to kill, then it's not too useful. Not when there are plenty of other feats.

If there are lots of weaker foes, though, then it shines. And hey, a free attack is a free attack, after all.

[Kaje]

People hate on Cleave a lot? Wow. In my experience, having Cleave (and later Great Cleave) vastly improves the efficacy of fighters.

People here seem to think that if you find yourself surrounded by enemies then you're doing it wrong.

[Thurbane]

People hate on Cleave a lot? Wow. In my experience, having Cleave (and later Great Cleave) vastly improves the efficacy of fighters.


Depends on what kinds of encounters you have. If they're usually just a few tough enemies that are hard to kill, then it's not too useful. Not when there are plenty of other feats.

If there are lots of weaker foes, though, then it shines. And hey, a free attack is a free attack, after all.

Pretty much this, yeah. I never quite got the hate for Cleave. The only req is pretty much an essential feat for the bulk of melee builds (TWF/finesse/precision damage builds excepted).

Anecdotally, I've found it to be fairly useful. Even when you're fighting tougher opponents at mid levels, you might still score one or two free attacks per combat. IN our group, I can't remember the last time anyone with Power Attack didn't take Cleave at some point. We are a fairly low-mid op group, however.

[Venger]

Is that where spinemeld warrior gets it? That makes a little more sense, though I can't imagine that spinemeld warrior is based off of anything from 1E. It does make it the only 3.5 prc to have level titles, and some very ornate ones at that.



Shadowbane Inquisitor is my favorite, and I love the fall narrative it sets up. However, it's got some weirdness to it. While the prerequisites are mostly standard paladin fare, it requires that you have sneak attack. While that builds with the theme of the class, it's a little awkward to be that much of the paladin's paladin with a level of rogue. It also has the situation where a class feature says you don't lose features for not having good alignment, but if you fall as a paladin you'll lose detect evil and turn undead, and be disqualified that way.

Cultist of the Shattered Peak has a prerequisite that you can't be an arcane caster because the cult is weird and hates arcane magic. The class then... gives you arcane casting.

Thief of life also bestows titles on certain level-ups. you gain the title "dauntless" at 7 and "ageless" at 10.


People here seem to think that if you find yourself surrounded by enemies then you're doing it wrong.


Pretty much this, yeah. I never quite got the hate for Cleave. The only req is pretty much an essential feat for the bulk of melee builds (TWF/finesse/precision damage builds excepted).

Anecdotally, I've found it to be fairly useful. Even when you're fighting tougher opponents at mid levels, you might still score one or two free attacks per combat. IN our group, I can't remember the last time anyone with Power Attack didn't take Cleave at some point. We are a fairly low-mid op group, however.

In a turn-based game, if you're within melee range of a bunch of enemies, you're going to get out-actioned as they all gang up around you, flank, and kick you in the shins until you are dead.

While free (if situational) attacks certainly are nice, part of why cleave is maligned is because the kinds of characters who would tend to take it (melee brutes) are already quite feat-starved. you're better off finishing the shock trooper line if you're a thfer, and twfers are spread too thin as it is and do their damage primarily through a thousand cuts, so would reap minimal use from cleave.

[VoxRationis]

In a turn-based game, if you're within melee range of a bunch of enemies, you're going to get out-actioned as they all gang up around you, flank, and kick you in the shins until you are dead.

In my experience, we rarely have a choice in the matter. Someone in the party is going to get ganged up on and if it's not the fighter, it's going to end up being the wizard. Notable fights in the campaign I'm currently in include:

20 off-duty soldiers in a bar;
The upper room of a tower, full of soldiers surrounding a trapdoor which is the only means of ingress;
The front lines of a full-scale assault by an army vastly outnumbering the force we are part of;
A demon that deals AoE damage equal to that which it takes;
Two giant sharks attacking us when we aren't prepared for it.
Of these, only the last two presented much of an option for not having our melee types engage multiple enemies simultaneously, and against the demon, attacks were counterproductive regardless of build. (We ended up grappling the demon and chucking it over a waterfall. Its DR was irrelevant against 20d6 fall damage. Shame about the fish at the bottom, though.)

[Psyren]

Reach weapons exist, as do size increases; you can cleave without necessarily surrounding yourself with bad guys that will poke you in the shins.

Cleave is fine. It's Great Cleave that sucks; on weak enemies you didn't need to spend a feat to deal with them anyway, and on strong enemies it does nothing.

[KillianHawkeye]

Cleave is a perfectly decent feat for a Fighter or Barbarian to take, even if it does only come into play occasionally. Great Cleave, on the other hand, is kinda garbage. Really, how often are you in a position to drop more than one creature in the same round AND still have other things nearby to hit afterward? Maybe, if you're specially built for lots of big attacks with crits and/or reach, or you're a really unusual Strength-focused Rogue. It's a much smaller niche for usage than the standard Cleave feat, and you're already probably making a trade-off to even take the first one.

If I'm going to play a beatstick, I'll happy pick up Cleave if I have a spare feat, but Great Cleave? I know I can find something more useful.

[Gruftzwerg]

Imho Cleave is only useful in low lvl adventures and gets fast out-powered and becomes more or less dead weight.

- melee are already feat starving to increase their dmg
- the game becomes more and more "rocket tag"at later lvls. Cleave doesn't help your dmg and doesn't help your to 1hit em.
- If you have the dmg to 1hit all your enemies it's still ain't worth it. You could just buy a Whirlwind weapon enhancement (3/day) and save the feat for something more useful.

Really, only in the early lvls Cleave is an option. Later it's just a wasted feat where there is just no room for it. There are always better options to aim for.
If you fight mostly hordes of enemies, go for a Whirlwind weapon to solve your problems. 3/day is enough for most regular campaigns.

[danielxcutter]

Imho Cleave is only useful in low lvl adventures and gets fast out-powered and becomes more or less dead weight.

- melee are already feat starving to increase their dmg
- the game becomes more and more "rocket tag"at later lvls. Cleave doesn't help your dmg and doesn't help your to 1hit em.
- If you have the dmg to 1hit all your enemies it's still ain't worth it. You could just buy a Whirlwind weapon enhancement (3/day) and save the feat for something more useful.

Really, only in the early lvls Cleave is an option. Later it's just a wasted feat where there is just no room for it. There are always better options to aim for.
If you fight mostly hordes of enemies, go for a Whirlwind weapon to solve your problems. 3/day is enough for most regular campaigns.

Point taken. Though Cleave is a prerequisite for Three Mountains Style, which is actually a good weapon style feat. Great Cleave's not as great as the name indicates, though.