[Thought exercise]PsyWar/Elocator?

[danielxcutter]

Yeah, I know it's a bit sub-optimal. There are some perks to Elocator, though, and Psychic Warrior qualifies for it easily. Plus, it's cool. :smallcool:

So, how should you make one? What feats and powers known should you take?

And FYI, I will not tolerate "use this other class that doesn't have anything to do with what you wanted to do in the first place but is totally more powerful" BS.

[OldTrees1]

Scorn Earth makes you immune to difficult terrain. This is useful for charges (synergy with Psionic Lion’s Charge).

Flanker is not as powerful as Island of Blades but does make constant flanking easier. This is useful for triggering Sneak Attack (Staggering Strike?).

Transporter has obvious utility. This might be the breakpoint.

Capricious Step is a form of 10ft steps per round (synergy with Skirmish which is not so helpful)



Rogue 1 / Psychic Warrior 4 / Elocater 6
Staggering Strike as 9th level feat

[danielxcutter]

Scorn Earth makes you immune to difficult terrain. This is useful for charges (synergy with Psionic Lion’s Charge).

Flanker is not as powerful as Island of Blades but does make constant flanking easier. This is useful for triggering Sneak Attack (Staggering Strike?).

Transporter has obvious utility. This might be the breakpoint.

Capricious Step is a form of 10ft steps per round (synergy with Skirmish which is not so helpful)



Rogue 1 / Psychic Warrior 4 / Elocater 6
Staggering Strike as 9th level feat

Transporter is the one where you get Psionic Teleport and Psionic Plane Shift as 3rd-level powers for free, right? That's possibly my favorite part of the class next to Scorn Earth.

[SangoProduction]

You positive you want to go Elocator? I mean, they have an ability called Scorn Earth. I mean, people make a big deal about a human woman scorned. You're wanting to do that to Mother Earth?

[logic_error]

You positive you want to go Elocator? I mean, they have an ability called Scorn Earth. I mean, people make a big deal about a human woman scorned. You're wanting to do that to Mother Earth?

That's sexist. Earth may not identify as a woman.

[lord_khaine]

I am still rather puzzled by the Elocator prestice class myself though. In a lot of cases i cant help but see that entering it and losing 3 feats and 3 manifester levels will leave you weaker off than a pure psionic warrior.

[logic_error]

I am still rather puzzled by the Elocator prestice class myself though. In a lot of cases i cant help but see that entering it and losing 3 feats and 3 manifester levels will leave you weaker off than a pure psionic warrior.

I agree. Elocator is not really adding so much to the PsyWar. War mind also does not add to manifester level. The real advantage of these PrCs is that they provide Soul blade some access to powers.

[J-H]

War mind is a decent prc for Fighters and other mundanes who want to pick up some powers. Fast progression compared to psywar.

The cpsi power Inconstant Location is the final word in PW tactical mobility.

[lord_khaine]

Well yeah alright.. can be its better to take a few levels of Psion before going Elocater. But then you really want to go Slayer afterwards in most cases.

[Manyasone]

You dead set on 3.5? Because the elocater DSP created is a big improvement over the original. And I entered as a psion/psywar in a campaign I played. He was pretty decent.

[danielxcutter]

You positive you want to go Elocator? I mean, they have an ability called Scorn Earth. I mean, people make a big deal about a human woman scorned. You're wanting to do that to Mother Earth?


That's sexist. Earth may not identify as a woman.


I am still rather puzzled by the Elocator prestice class myself though. In a lot of cases i cant help but see that entering it and losing 3 feats and 3 manifester levels will leave you weaker off than a pure psionic warrior.


I agree. Elocator is not really adding so much to the PsyWar. War mind also does not add to manifester level. The real advantage of these PrCs is that they provide Soul blade some access to powers.


War mind is a decent prc for Fighters and other mundanes who want to pick up some powers. Fast progression compared to psywar.

The cpsi power Inconstant Location is the final word in PW tactical mobility.


Well yeah alright.. can be its better to take a few levels of Psion before going Elocater. But then you really want to go Slayer afterwards in most cases.


You dead set on 3.5? Because the elocater DSP created is a big improvement over the original. And I entered as a psion/psywar in a campaign I played. He was pretty decent.

Oh for the love of Pelor, have you guys even read the last line of the OP?! :smallfurious:

[Grod_The_Giant]

So your building blocks are...

Spring Attack: you had to take it to get here. You might as well look into using it; grab Bounding Assault and all. Given how much better charging is, though... <shrug>
Flanker: Good for sneak attack; you don't have sneak attack. You should get sneak attack. Pricy, though; you're either losing another ML through a dip, or burning another 2-3 feats to get Assassin's Stance and maybe Craven.
Capricious Step: You're mobile, though you kind of already were. Are there interesting things we can do with 5ft steps? Is there any way to pick up Skirmish damage at this point? (Psywar 5/Elocator 7/Scout 1...does Unseen Seer have a psionic adaptation? Can you force it with the Magic mantle?)
Accelerated Action: Phenominal, of course-- translates to "5 free Quickened powers/day," basically, or 10 with Linked Power-- but won't really change your tactics. You can use more short-duration buffs, I guess.

[lord_khaine]

Oh for the love of Pelor, have you guys even read the last line of the OP?!

Yes... ? I well i am sorry for you if you got a low BS tolerance. That does sound annoying.

I fail to see the relevance between that and any of the posts you just linked there. Firstly none of that is BS. And secondly noone is telling you to use any class there, we are simply discussing and comparing the merits of the Elocater prestice clas.

[danielxcutter]

Yes... ? I well i am sorry for you if you got a low BS tolerance. That does sound annoying.

I fail to see the relevance between that and any of the posts you just linked there. Firstly none of that is BS. And secondly noone is telling you to use any class there, we are simply discussing and comparing the merits of the Elocater prestice clas.

Well, if I was asking for you guys to compare the Elocator with other similar PrCs, then I might have said so... but I didn't, did I?


So your building blocks are...

Spring Attack: you had to take it to get here. You might as well look into using it; grab Bounding Assault and all. Given how much better charging is, though... <shrug>
Flanker: Good for sneak attack; you don't have sneak attack. You should get sneak attack. Pricy, though; you're either losing another ML through a dip, or burning another 2-3 feats to get Assassin's Stance and maybe Craven.
Capricious Step: You're mobile, though you kind of already were. Are there interesting things we can do with 5ft steps? Is there any way to pick up Skirmish damage at this point? (Psywar 5/Elocator 7/Scout 1...does Unseen Seer have a psionic adaptation? Can you force it with the Magic mantle?)
Accelerated Action: Phenominal, of course-- translates to "5 free Quickened powers/day," basically, or 10 with Linked Power-- but won't really change your tactics. You can use more short-duration buffs, I guess.


Okay, I'm perfectly fine with this, even though the list does highlight some of the Elocator's weaknesses. Because it's looking at the class, and then suggesting ways of making use of it, instead of just pointing out all the ways Elocator is lame while giving no advice to make the most of it.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Okay, I'm perfectly fine with this, even though the list does highlight some of the Elocator's weaknesses. Because it's looking at the class, and then suggesting ways of making use of it, instead of just pointing out all the ways Elocator is lame while giving no advice to make the most of it.
The sad thing is, those are its strengths. Everything else is mobility/utility (Scorn Earth, Transporter) or weak (Opportunistic Strike, Dimension Step, Dimension Spring Attack).

I guess, maybe, you could stack Power Attack modifiers to turn the accuracy boost from Opportunistic Strike into a "one-shot, one-kill" sort of thing? The best thematics would be to pair it with Spring Attack, but things like Leap Attack and Valorous Weapons only work when charging. And neither does Capracious Step, more's the pity, though as OldTrees1 noted Scorn Earth is good for that.

Hmm... is there a good, simple way to create difficult terrain around yourself? You could, I dunno, scatter caltrops or marbles everywhere and hover on top of them while everyone else gets knocked off-balance.

The Sidestep feat potentially offers you an extra 5ft step each round; 15ft of free movement is neat. Which I suppose could be boosted to 20-30ft with a DC 40 Tumble check or a Sparring Dummy of the Master... actually, getting one of those would be a pretty good mobility trick once you hit Elocator 7. Forget Spring Attack; 20ft of AoO-less movement that doesn't interfere with full-round actions is rock-solid. If you dip Halfling Monk, you can even get 1d6 Skirmish.

[danielxcutter]

The sad thing is, those are its strengths. Everything else is mobility/utility (Scorn Earth, Transporter) or weak (Opportunistic Strike, Dimension Step, Dimension Spring Attack).

Fair, I suppose.


I guess, maybe, you could stack Power Attack modifiers to turn the accuracy boost from Opportunistic Strike into a "one-shot, one-kill" sort of thing? The best thematics would be to pair it with Spring Attack, but things like Leap Attack and Valorous Weapons only work when charging. And neither does Capracious Step, more's the pity, though as OldTrees1 noted Scorn Earth is good for that.

Well, you can make a decent Elocator charger build, like the one Inevitability did for that Iron Chef round. The main schtick was blasted to pieces by one of the judges, unfortunately, but armor with the Landing and Impact properties would help greatly. You could Dimension Step over the target's head and use Roof-Jumper to deal extra damage, for example.


Hmm... is there a good, simple way to create difficult terrain around yourself? You could, I dunno, scatter caltrops or marbles everywhere and hover on top of them while everyone else gets knocked off-balance.

Making difficult terrain isn't the hard part, especially if you have a caster on your side. The problem is not gimping the other martials.


The Sidestep feat potentially offers you an extra 5ft step each round; 15ft of free movement is neat. Which I suppose could be boosted to 20-30ft with a DC 40 Tumble check or a Sparring Dummy of the Master... actually, getting one of those would be a pretty good mobility trick once you hit Elocator 7. Forget Spring Attack; 20ft of AoO-less movement that doesn't interfere with full-round actions is rock-solid. If you dip Halfling Monk, you can even get 1d6 Skirmish.

Um... You mean Sidestep Charge, which is a bonus feat for Elocators, or taking the Sidestep feat as normal? Just wanted to clarify.

Also, quasi-Pounce is great. Too bad it takes 7 levels in Elocator, but it's still pretty good.

[Telok]

Rogue 1 / Psychic Warrior 4 / Elocater 6
Staggering Strike as 9th level feat

I would note that Spring Attack has a BaB +4 requirement and PsiWar are a medium BaB class. They cannot enter until level 7, or 8 if they multiclass and lose a BaB.

The fastest entry is 4 levels of full BaB classes, one of which has a bonus feat at 4th level, and a level in a manifester class.

[OldTrees1]

Scorn Earth makes you immune to difficult terrain. This is useful for charges (synergy with Psionic Lion’s Charge).

Flanker is not as powerful as Island of Blades but does make constant flanking easier. This is useful for triggering Sneak Attack (Staggering Strike?).

Transporter has obvious utility. This might be the breakpoint.

Capricious Step is a form of 10ft steps per round (synergy with Skirmish which is not so helpful)



Rogue 1 / Psychic Warrior 4 / Elocater 6
Staggering Strike as 9th level feat

Transporter is the one where you get Psionic Teleport and Psionic Plane Shift as 3rd-level powers for free, right? That's possibly my favorite part of the class next to Scorn Earth.

Yes Transporter is the Teleport & Planeshift powers. This gives our martial character a bit more strategic mobility (similar to another PrC I can never remember). Our ideal Psychic Warrior entry will end up able to use these special 3rd level powers. To manifest as a 7th level Psychic Warrior after 6 levels of Elocater requires entering with at least 3 levels of Psychic Warrior.

To synergize with Elocater's abilities we would focus on Charge + Flank. Since we are losing manifester levels to Elocater, it might be wise to outsource Psionic Lion Charge to Spirit Lion Totem.


I would note that Spring Attack has a BaB +4 requirement and PsiWar are a medium BaB class. They cannot enter until level 7, or 8 if they multiclass and lose a BaB.

The fastest entry is 4 levels of full BaB classes, one of which has a bonus feat at 4th level, and a level in a manifester class.

Pieces:
Elocater 6
Psychic Warrior 3+ (9 total but manifests as if 13 so you only lose 1 level of powers known)
Dragonborn(breath) Goliath
Goliath Barbarian(Spirit Lion Totem) 1 to get a passive pounce and increased size
Swordsage 2 to get some utility maneuvers and assassin's stance
Warblade 1 to get IHS and WRT which are both great tech for martial characters

Goliath Barbarian (Spirit Lion Totem) 1 / Psychic Warrior 3 / Swordsage (IL 3) 1 / Fighter 1 / Elocator 1 / Swordsage (IL 5) +1 / Warblade (IL 5) 1 / Elocator +5 / Psychic Warrior +6
Feats:
1 Extra Rage, 3 ???, 6 ???, 9 Staggering Strike, 12 ???, 15 ???, 18 ???
Bonus Feats:
2 Dodge, 3 Mobility, 6 Spring Attack, 7 Sidestep Charge, 16 ???, 19 ???

[SangoProduction]

Didn't expect someone to get mad over a joke. Sorry.

[danielxcutter]

Didn't expect someone to get mad over a joke. Sorry.

You were actually one of the people I was less pissed at. I mean, it was still kinda annoying, but at least you weren't one of the guys going "Ew, Elocator is super underpowered. Use the much better PF version instead.", which is a major pet peeve of mine.

[Rebel7284]

I have use Elocater once when I was theorycrafting a psionic Telflamar Shadowlord build.
It was something like Dominant Ideal Ardent 8/Swordsage 1/Telflamar Shadowlord 4/Ardent 2/Elocater 1/X4
The character already met all the requirements and adding Scorn Earth was a nice touch.

If using Ardent's RAW reading of power acquisition being based on manifester level, just Ardent 5/Elocater 10/Ardent +5 works well enough for getting full manifesting, but isn't super optimized.

Now as per the OP, switching to Ardent is not doable. However, a shadowpouncing build can be done alright with a Psywar too!

Psychic Warrior 4(perhaps mantled warrior?)/Swordsage 1/Elocater 4/TSL 4/Elocater +6/X 1

You can only manifest 4th level powers, but you can pick up gems like metamorphosis and then Dimension Spring Attack for two extra FULL attacks on a Spring Attack.

You also natively learn Hustle and Dimension Slide.

[danielxcutter]

I have use Elocater once when I was theorycrafting a psionic Telflamar Shadowlord build.
It was something like Dominant Ideal Ardent 8/Swordsage 1/Telflamar Shadowlord 4/Ardent 2/Elocater 1/X4
The character already met all the requirements and adding Scorn Earth was a nice touch.

If using Ardent's RAW reading of power acquisition being based on manifester level, just Ardent 5/Elocater 10/Ardent +5 works well enough for getting full manifesting, but isn't super optimized.

Now as per the OP, switching to Ardent is not doable. However, a shadowpouncing build can be done alright with a Psywar too!

Psychic Warrior 4(perhaps mantled warrior?)/Swordsage 1/Elocater 4/TSL 4/Elocater +6/X 1

You can only manifest 4th level powers, but you can pick up gems like metamorphosis and then Dimension Spring Attack for two extra FULL attacks on a Spring Attack.

You also natively learn hustle and Dimension Slide.

Two extra full attacks on a Spring Attack? I mean, yeah, I get that you get one of them from Dimension Step, but where does the other come from?

[Rebel7284]

Two extra full attacks on a Spring Attack? I mean, yeah, I get that you get one of them from Dimension Step, but where does the other come from?



Dimension Spring Attack (Su)
An elocater of 9th level or higher can use her dimension step ability in conjunction with her Spring Attack feat once per day. This ability can be used only against opponents within 60 feet to which the elocater has line of sight. She can dimension step up to the target, use Spring Attack, and then use dimension step to return to her starting point.


Based on the wording of the ability, two teleports happen. Obviously this does mean that an enemy needs to be on both sides. I mean, this is mostly equivalent to just using a standard action teleport and then a move action teleport, but hey, you save on power points by using the class ability. :)

Edit: Also, BAB 4 for spring attack does mean an extra level of Psychic Warrior or Swordsage is needed. Still works although you finish Elocater at level 20.

[danielxcutter]

Based on the wording of the ability, two teleports happen. Obviously this does mean that an enemy needs to be on both sides. I mean, this is mostly equivalent to just using a standard action teleport and then a move action teleport, but hey, you save on power points by using the class ability. :)

Oh. I get it now.

[logic_error]

Oh for the love of Pelor, have you guys even read the last line of the OP?! :smallfurious:

Okay okay! :D

The chief problem with building a PsyWar/Elocater is the chassis. Both offer medium progressions that for an obviously melee class does not jive. Then you LOSE manifester levels but you can get them back with the Practiced Manifester. So fine, not the biggest loss ever. And finally, you have a weaker hit die. That really sucks. But you can live with that because you get the awesome vigor power.

The second issue is that the real combat benefits of the class come at level 9/10. The extra action is nice, but it does not allow you to go all quickened spell route. The dimensional spring attack is AWESOME. PsyWars make great chargers; You can not, however, Psionic Lion's Charge to reap the full benefits of this because there is no charge anymore without rule twisting.

The real advantages of elocater are in the utility benefits. You get a PERMANENT levitation effect, which partially offsets the problem with melee fighters. I say partially because you can use this power to get out of trouble but not to get to it. You can not use it to effective GET to flying creatures as all the penalties of attacking while levitating apply. The second big advantage is the access to teleport and plane shift. This is the big one, you are stepping on Nomad's toes now. But unfortunately, you won't have the PP to actually use them to their maximum benefit. If there is one big misunderstanding with Psionics is that poor manifesters get a lot of PPs (of course, without using exploits). That's totally untrue of course, especially if you compare it to how many slots Sorcerors and Wizards get.

Thus, to recount, you get very little real benefit for being an Elocator, chiefly because I can see no way to use the charging potential of PWs with Elocater. You end up losing more than you gain. Ultimately, it might be better to get into Slayer and lose one manifester level and get the ultimate mind blank.

[danielxcutter]

Okay okay! :D

The chief problem with building a PsyWar/Elocater is the chassis. Both offer medium progressions that for an obviously melee class does not jive. Then you LOSE manifester levels but you can get them back with the Practiced Manifester. So fine, not the biggest loss ever. And finally, you have a weaker hit die. That really sucks. But you can live with that because you get the awesome vigor power.

The second issue is that the real combat benefits of the class come at level 9/10. The extra action is nice, but it does not allow you to go all quickened spell route. The dimensional spring attack is AWESOME. PsyWars make great chargers; You can not, however, Psionic Lion's Charge to reap the full benefits of this because there is no charge anymore without rule twisting.

The real advantages of elocater are in the utility benefits. You get a PERMANENT levitation effect, which partially offsets the problem with melee fighters. I say partially because you can use this power to get out of trouble but not to get to it. You can not use it to effective GET to flying creatures as all the penalties of attacking while levitating apply. The second big advantage is the access to teleport and plane shift. This is the big one, you are stepping on Nomad's toes now. But unfortunately, you won't have the PP to actually use them to their maximum benefit. If there is one big misunderstanding with Psionics is that poor manifesters get a lot of PPs (of course, without using exploits). That's totally untrue of course, especially if you compare it to how many slots Sorcerors and Wizards get.

Thus, to recount, you get very little real benefit for being an Elocator, chiefly because I can see no way to use the charging potential of PWs with Elocater. You end up losing more than you gain. Ultimately, it might be better to get into Slayer and lose one manifester level and get the ultimate mind blank.

The question was "how do I make the most of this admittingly weak PrC?", not "what PrC would be better than the totally crappy Elocator which has few redeeming points?". :smallannoyed:

[logic_error]

The question was "how do I make the most of this admittingly weak PrC?", not "what PrC would be better than the totally crappy Elocator which has few redeeming points?". :smallannoyed:

Yeah, I know. But, I just could not come up with anything that has to do with Elocater :(. So I thought at least helping with where its strength is (utility) might help. Obviously, it does not.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I think, probably, your best bet is going to go for a melee control build. Use Expansion to get big, throw difficult terrain type stuff around that you can walk all over, use the extra 5ft steps to position yourself properly.


You could Dimension Step over the target's head and use Roof-Jumper to deal extra damage, for example.

Based on the wording of the ability, two teleports happen. Obviously this does mean that an enemy needs to be on both sides. I mean, this is mostly equivalent to just using a standard action teleport and then a move action teleport, but hey, you save on power points by using the class ability. :)
Not really; Dimension Step (and by extension, Dimension Spring Attack) is only once/day. Also known as "crap," especially since you can get a variety of teleport effects through your manifesting.


Um... You mean Sidestep Charge, which is a bonus feat for Elocators, or taking the Sidestep feat as normal? Just wanted to clarify.
I meant the vanilla Sidestep feat from the MH, sorry. Though actually, you could do a neat thing with combining the two with a reach weapon. Your opponent charges, you get an AoO from your reach weapon, you 5ft step away, the attack fails, you get another AoO and stab them.

[logic_error]

Unfortunately, that last part depends on suicidal opponent charging at you.