Prestige Feats?

[djreynolds]

I'm not stealing this idea, just placing it here so we can focus on it.

Now my idea is a chain of 3 feats, styles, class features perhaps giving something more

Now to be fair, one of the feats/features/styles should be sacrificial or un-optimized... like a cleric needing greater fortitude back in 3.5.

So with the chain of 3, here is one. Just spit balling here now...

Class feature ranger's favored enemy, keen mind (this is the odd part, un-optimal), skulker.... if the ranger's 1st attack from hiding is successful his next targets for that turn will also take the ranger's current favored enemy bonus to damage regardless of race

Try it out

[Lalliman]

I had no idea what you were trying to say until I went into your post history and tracked down your contribution to the prestige classes thread. You should really rephrase your point in a way that's understandable for people who weren't part of that thread.

I do like the idea, but your suggestion, well, it's a feat that occasionally gives +2 or +4 damage (assuming UA ranger) to one or a few enemies under very specific circumstances. That wouldn't be worth a feat even if it didn't require you to take Keen Mind. It's not very thematically interesting either. The effect will have to be much bigger, preferably changing your play style in some way.

I'm not very inspired right now, but I'll give some thought to other options for prestige-esque feats.

[lunaticfringe]

Feat tax was never cool. You're just widening the divide between casters & non casters.

[Lombra]

I don't think that the system will support the idea very well; the idea behind the feats is that one should cover most of the needs of a character that wants to focus on something so that he has the rest of the ASIs to maximise the important stats.

[Lalliman]

Feat tax was never cool. You're just widening the divide between casters & non casters.
What? I don't see how feats with prerequisites would be detrimental specifically to martials.


I don't think that the system will support the idea very well; the idea behind the feats is that one should cover most of the needs of a character that wants to focus on something so that he has the rest of the ASIs to maximise the important stats.
This is true. I agree that you shouldn't make feats that have another feat as their prerequisite, let alone multiple. Most characters get a maximum five ASIs in their entire career, so a feat that has two other feats as a prerequisite will never be used. Except, perhaps, by a high level VHuman fighter.

When I said I like the idea, I meant the idea of class-specific feats. They could act as something of a subclass, changing both your play style and your character's theme, while being usable in combination with your actual subclass.

[Waterdeep Merch]

I've been thinking about it since the other thread, and I think I've come up with something I like- why require feat chains? Restrict the feats to specific levels in specific classes, and you could get a more nuanced system without accidentally breaking it.

For example, back during 3.5 I loved the Shadowdancer prestige class. I used it in every rogue build, and a few others. I'd rebuild it here like this-

Shadowdancer
Requires level 11 in bard, monk, or rogue
Sneaking in and out of shadows, they've become a part of you. When nearby any shadows within 5 feet of you other than your own, you may hide even if you lack cover. You gain a darkvision of 30 feet, or your darkvision increases by 10 feet if you already had it. You may cast dimension door at will so long as you target a shadow you can see. Your shadow can become a Shadow monster with an action. It lasts until dismissed, obeys your commands, and can communicate telepathically with you out to 1 mile. While it is not with you, you do not cast any shadows. If it dies, you do not regain your shadow or the ability to make it a Shadow until the next dawn.

EDIT: Aaaaaaand then I realized there wasn't really a reason to do this when I could just make it a subclass. I'll leave this here for anyone that likes the idea, but I'm just going to make it a rogue archetype for my games.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I agree with the consensus here-- feat chains are a terrible idea for 5e. They weren't great in 3.5 either, but at least then characters got enough feats to pursue a chain. A 5e character is likely to take only one or two feats period. They also go against the design philosophy that says feats-- at least full feats-- are meant to be stand-alone options. You take a feat that does a thing, and you're good at doing that thing now. Period.

Feat taxes are also twice as bad in 5e as they were in 3.5. Like, the basic idea of "sacrifice power and fun now for more power and fun later" is exactly the sort of real-life frustration we play RPGs to avoid, and it has no place in a game as long-term as a D&D campaign. But you're already making a trade-off to pick up a feat; you're trading the raw boost of an ASI for the options of a feat. Slapping another price tag on top of that is just cruel.

Now, class-specific feats, or feats with level requirements? Those I can dig.

[MeeposFire]

Feat chains are bad I would not recommend them. This is especially true here where the game has less feats to go around and now they are a choice with ASI which means that feat chains hurt even more.

[JellyPooga]

@Grod

I would tend to agree with most of your post, but I don't agree with Feats that have a level requirement so much. It implies that those Feats should be somehow better than a Feat available at earlier levels, to compensate the "level investment". Especially if it's "X levels of Y Class". To my mind, to maintain balance, all Feats should have the same "power level", which should (in theory) be approximately equal to an ASI.

[Waterdeep Merch]

@Grod

I would tend to agree with most of your post, but I don't agree with Feats that have a level requirement so much. It implies that those Feats should be somehow better than a Feat available at earlier levels, to compensate the "level investment". Especially if it's "X levels of Y Class". To my mind, to maintain balance, all Feats should have the same "power level", which should (in theory) be approximately equal to an ASI.

Though I'm somewhat reversing my direction with the Shadowdancer at least, I don't think level requirements are really that bad of an idea, depending on what is offered. Certain things that would be grossly overpowered at an earlier level end up about as good as other options or even an ASI later if they just don't scale that well. By adding a level requirement, you can add options that are broken early but otherwise balanced if taken later. As an example, in the Shadowdancer feat I had up there, it included the equivalent of a Shadow familiar. It's not all that powerful by then and thus balanced, but if the feat were available at level 1 it could lead to serious imbalance.

[Lombra]

It would be cool if feats progressed with character level. For example: the infamous dual wielder feat could grant two attacks with the off-hand weapon at a certain (high) level, or upgrade the bonus to AC to +2. Not because they don't work as they are now, but because I undestand that the more you feel that your character is upgrading the more you are enjoying the game generally. Also because a stereotypical level 5 ranger dual wielder for example isn't doing less attacks per round than a level 20 ranger dual wielder, and it feels lame. It mechanically isn't a problem but it's a feelings problem in my opinion. Class-requirement feats also could appeal to me, but they would require a very particular design to make the cut.

[djreynolds]

Shadowdancer
Requires level 11 in bard, monk, or rogue
Sneaking in and out of shadows, they've become a part of you. When nearby any shadows within 5 feet of you other than your own, you may hide even if you lack cover. You gain a darkvision of 30 feet, or your darkvision increases by 10 feet if you already had it. You may cast dimension door at will so long as you target a shadow you can see. Your shadow can become a Shadow monster with an action. It lasts until dismissed, obeys your commands, and can communicate telepathically with you out to 1 mile. While it is not with you, you do not cast any shadows. If it dies, you do not regain your shadow or the ability to make it a Shadow until the next dawn.

EDIT: Aaaaaaand then I realized there wasn't really a reason to do this when I could just make it a subclass. I'll leave this here for anyone that likes the idea, but I'm just going to make it a rogue archetype for my games.

This is cool, because its not relegated to just rogue. This actually very cool

Its not chain feats, it could be style or class features.

If a character has the brutal critical, improved critical class features and this feat (throw one in) like savage attacker... you get this (throw in a benefit)

It could be levels, especially levels that would seem non-optimal like gaining the extra attack feature twice.

Like lets say you play a paladin/barbarian, and so many players are reluctant to 5 levels in each class because you gain the extra attack feature twice.

But what if you if did gain something for having the extra attack feature twice.

What if there was something for going 6 levels in paladin and 5 level in barbarian?

You could gain extra radiant damage while raging, perhaps not as good as improved divine smite or brutal critical... but something new.

[Arkhios]

As the originator of the idea (I guess?) I didn't exactly mean feat chains as the Prestige Class implementation. I meant that a single feat with no ability score improvement whatsoever could possibly grant the equivalent key features of a prestige class. For example, Dungeon Delver (feat) is very similar with the 3.5 Dungeon Delver (Prestige Class) from the book Complete Adventurer.

[djreynolds]

As the originator of the idea (I guess?) I didn't exactly mean feat chains as the Prestige Class implementation. I meant that a single feat with no ability score improvement whatsoever could possibly grant the equivalent key features of a prestige class. For example, Dungeon Delver (feat) is very similar with the 3.5 Dungeon Delver (Prestige Class) from the book Complete Adventurer.

That's even better, like a feat.... shadow dancer. That's even better.

Or doomguide

I could see, the weapon master feat being retooled, if you have martial weapon proficiency already you grab this a get +1 to 4 weapons of your choice.

Say a rogue grabs it, +1 to a rapier, dagger, short bow, etc

This could really work. Much simpler.