Three Questions, One Post

[Chester]

Hello. I have a few questions for 3.5, and I'm consolidating space.

1. Can a telepath (or other psionic person) naturally figure out where an invisible opponent is? I feel like telepaths should be able to figure that out based on brain waves or something.

2. Can a caster equipped with a Third Eye: Sense cast "line of sight" spells from around a corner, etc.?

3. Ugh....disbelieving illusions. I can't wrap my feeble mind around how it works, specifically with Major Image. Can someone please asplain?

Thanks in advance for addressing my questions and not ridiculing me.:smallsmile:

[Elkad]

3 is easy. It has a subtle something that isn't right.

Like detecting CGI instead of an actual explosion in a movie, or an autotuned vocalist, or artificial vanilla flavoring instead of the real thing in your ice cream. Less alert/observant people just don't notice. And of course it depends on how well it has been done.

[Chester]

3 is easy. It has a subtle something that isn't right.

Like detecting CGI instead of an actual explosion in a movie, or an autotuned vocalist, or artificial vanilla flavoring instead of the real thing in your ice cream. Less alert/observant people just don't notice. And of course it depends on how well it has been done.

That part I get....but do players get a Will save? Do they automatically notice? Do they have to declare, "I'd like to disbelieve this potential illusion?"

[logic_error]

That part I get....but do players get a Will save? Do they automatically notice? Do they have to declare, "I'd like to disbelieve this potential illusion?"

In my opinion, this is more of a DM responsibility. If the DM believes that the characters have enough experience with illusions or in *this* case the illusion is lacking in some obvious respect he might hint it by attracting attention to its unusual nature. The job of the player is to catch the hint and identify its source.

[Lazymancer]

Hello. I have a few questions for 3.5, and I'm consolidating space.
There is a stickied thread up top for consolidating, I think.


1. Can a telepath (or other psionic person) naturally figure out where an invisible opponent is? I feel like telepaths should be able to figure that out based on brain waves or something.
There is a feat called "Mindsight". Other than that - nope.


2. Can a caster equipped with a Third Eye: Sense cast "line of sight" spells from around a corner, etc.?
He still needs line-of-effect.


3. Ugh....disbelieving illusions. I can't wrap my feeble mind around how it works, specifically with Major Image. Can someone please asplain?
It depends on GM, but the general idea is that you need to "interact". I.e. either poke at illusion, or have illusion poke at you, or spend some time looking closely at illusion to have a chance at noticing it's incongruity, or have some inconclusive evidence that it isn't real.

There are also 4 articles that explore this in-depth: first article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060207a).

tl;dr: AFAIK there is no RAW (which speaks volumes about actual play-testing), but the common houserule is that character needs to spend a standard (or move) action taking a good look at illusion (he is not interacting with in any other way) to get a Will saving throw.

[Florian]

1) No.

2) No.

3) When the Illusion is not cast while you can witness it (Spellcraft check to identify), you do have to interact with it in any meaningful way to get to disbelieve it. Stat means you have to spent at least some kind of action for interacting with it, a free action "I yell F U at it" isn´t enough.

[Necroticplague]

Hello. I have a few questions for 3.5, and I'm consolidating space.

1. Can a telepath (or other psionic person) naturally figure out where an invisible opponent is? I feel like telepaths should be able to figure that out based on brain waves or something.
If they are using a power (like Touchsight) that allows them to, or they have Mindsight and Telepathy, yes. Otherwise, being psionic carries no special ability to do this. Side note: not all psionic characters are telepathic, so your fluff reasoning doesn't make much sense.


2. Can a caster equipped with a Third Eye: Sense cast "line of sight" spells from around a corner, etc.?
1. All spells are 'line of sight'. It's under the rules for spellcasting, it's called 'line of effect'.
2. No. Even if your vision is displaced, line of effect still comes from the caster to the target.


3. Ugh....disbelieving illusions. I can't wrap my feeble mind around how it works, specifically with Major Image. Can someone please asplain?

Basically, when you interact with an illusion, you can make a Will save to recognize that it's not real.


Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.

A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.

A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.
So if you interact with a Major image or look closely, you can make a will save. On a failed save, you notice nothing abnormal. On a successful save, you realize it's an illusion, and can then see through it (since Major Image is a Figment). If you can outright prove it's an illusion (i.e, falling through an illusionary floor), it's as if you had succeeded, no save needed.

[Lazymancer]

1. All spells are 'line of sight'. It's under the rules for spellcasting, it's called 'line of effect'.
There are spells that require neither line of sight, nor line of effect. Scrying, Magic Jar, Dream, Sending, Teleport, etc.

[Necroticplague]

There are spells that require neither line of sight, nor line of effect. Scrying, Magic Jar, Dream, Sending, Teleport, etc.
1. Teleport does require both. However, you only need to have them to the target, not the destination (since that's neither a target nor an are to create an effect)

You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.
2. Magic Jar is an explicit exception, proving the rules. Yes, 'unless explicitely stated otherwise', is always there in this system. I assumed that went without saying.
3. Dream is in the same boat as Teleport: It's target is a touched creature, the rest of it is neither a target nor an effect, so LoE is inapplicable.
4. Sending and Scrying appear to be dysfunctional in this regard, unless you have an actual source that says they ignore LoE. I don't see it either in the general rules for their spell types, or in the spells themselves.

[Lazymancer]

2. Magic Jar is an explicit exception, proving the rules. Yes, 'unless explicitely stated otherwise', is always there in this system. I assumed that went without saying.
Yes. My point is that there are some spells that clearly supposed to work without LoE, but (unlike Magic Jar) do not mention this explicitly.

Apologies for presenting flawed examples (I did not double-check).

Instead of Dream, two other dream-spells: Nightmare and Dreaming Puppet.
Instead of Teleport: Familiar Refuge.

[Chester]

Thank you all for your responses. You've answered my questions thoroughly.

[Hish]

3 is easy. It has a subtle something that isn't right.

Like detecting CGI instead of an actual explosion in a movie, or an autotuned vocalist, or artificial vanilla flavoring instead of the real thing in your ice cream. Less alert/observant people just don't notice. And of course it depends on how well it has been done.

The PHB actually spells this part out very clearly:

A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline. For examples, a character making a successful saving throw against a figment of an illusory section of floor knows the “floor” isn’t safe to walk on and can see what lies below (light permitting), but he or she can still note where the figment lies.

[KillianHawkeye]

1. All spells are 'line of sight'. It's under the rules for spellcasting, it's called 'line of effect'.

No, line of sight and line of effect are not the same thing, even if they do overlap most of the time.

You can fire a lightning bolt down a hallway that's clouded by fog or covered by an illusory wall (which block line of sight, but not line of effect), or even one that's merely shrouded in darkness, and hit anything that may be lurking there just fine. Going the other way, you can teleport to the other side of a wall of force (which is typically transparent) with relative ease because you can clearly see your destination, even though you couldn't cast most other spells through it because the wall blocks line of effect.