Critique my world?

[Norrefve]

Hello, fellow playgrounders!

I debated putting this thread in the World Building sub-forum, but decided it would be better here since it is about a fictional setting for a novel, rather than a campaign setting for an RPG.

At any rate, I would like to submit the world I am creating to all of you for some critique, mostly to know what is good and bad about what I already have, but also to help steer the world-building and flesh out the parts I might not have considered enough.

I am hoping to share a google doc with interested people who will be able to leave comments giving their advice and critiques. Comment or PM me if you are interested, and I will send you the link. I have been working on this world for almost 10 years, so the document is up to about 66 pages. :smalltongue:

What I am looking for, critique-wise:
1) Overall thoughts about the world.
2) What doesn't make sense or contradicts itself (I have changed a lot of things many times, and things get missed).
3) What you like about it and would be interested in learning more about.
4) Any advice on key details that are missing, or ways to make the world more congruous.

Like I said, this world was created with the intent to (eventually) write novels set in it, but has been more of a hobby than anything else.

So, without further ado, here is a small blurb about to world to pique your interest.


The genre is a fairly typical medieval fantasy world, akin to DnD, Tolkien, or Paolini. The continent is called Kili-Ana, a vast landscape that spans many countries, cultures, and biomes. On this continent are four main races. Each race reveres one of the four suns which represent certain values or strengths, and also represent each of the cardinal directions.

The Humans revere the western sun, Tyendol, and value vitality and music. They control three kingdoms on the western side of Kili-Ana.

The Haleen are a race of rocky people (essentially rock golems, but completely sentient). They revere the north sun, Halowet, which represents diligence and passion. The live on the northern edge of the continent, beneath the Great Northern Mountains. The Haleen are loosely based on Dwarves, i.e., live underground, love to mine and craft wondrous items, and tend to be greedy. They are also loosely based on Deaf Culture, and use sign language and a serious of different pitched hums to communicate.

The Renal are humanoid bird creatures. They revere the eastern sun, Renalfa, which represents science and magic. They live on the eastern side of the continent among the mountains and lakes. Renal are loosely based on Elves, in that they are incredibly intelligent, eccentric, and far more advanced than the other races, but keep themselves secluded from outsiders and rarely share their secrets.

Finally, the Noleitin are a race of metallic humanoids. They revere the southern sun, Narlowet, which represents war and dance. They are not man-made or cyborgs, but rather are organic creatures composed entirely of metal. They are loosely based on Drow, in that they have enmity with the other races, especially the humans. They prefer guerrilla warfare and assassination. They are very intelligent creatures, more so than most humans, and most are not opposed to peaceful co-existence, but they have been stigmatized by ancient conflict and have been unable to come to terms with the humans whom they have been warring with for generations.

Magic in this world is highly individualistic. There are a couple dozen groupings of magic that have been penned down by scholars, most notably the Nine Elemental Magics (Water, Earth, Ice, Air, Fire, Lightning, Gravity, Light, and Darkness), Word Magic, which uses a magical language to form various spells, Flora, Fauna, and Weather Magics, Sun and Moon Magics, Alchemy, Divination, and many others.

Every individual is born with the ability to perform some kind of magic, though the majority of the population does not have significant skill with it. Many do not even know which type they are compatible with. Magic is controlled using an inner energy called the Phasse (basically Mana, but less gimmicky). The more accomplished mages have a larger well of phasse to draw from than others, and usually discipline themselves in an effort to increase that well, and consequently what they are able to do with their magic.

The scary part about magic, and the thing that holds most of the population back, is what happens when a mage casts with his/her phasse completely depleted. Depending on the type of magic, very bad things can happen to the mage. For example, a fire mage's life force will slowly dwindle away, shortening their life span, an earth mage's physical body with wither, and a gravity mage will slowly become insane.

Nevertheless, magic is, and continues to be, a valued and sought after ability, for those who have the knack for it.

Hopefully this gives you an idea of what the world is like. Feel free to ask questions here, but I am more than willing to share the google document with you, which goes much more in depth.

Thanks in advance, and I hope you enjoy!

[Razade]

The genre is a fairly typical medieval fantasy world, akin to DnD, Tolkien, or Paolini.

The first two are honestly fairly not the same. D&D may have cribbed some things from Tolkien but it's honestly all surface level. Citing Paolini...does not fill me with anything but dread frankly. His world building (and everything else) was...sub-par at best.


The continent is called Kili-Ana, a vast landscape that spans many countries, cultures, and biomes. On this continent are four main races. Each race reveres one of the four suns which represent certain values or strengths, and also represent each of the cardinal directions.

Four...suns? That's the first red flag. Why four suns rather then the different cultures revering the sun for different reasons? We'll get to those parts in a bit but...a planet with two suns is already pretty screwed up. Four suns? The planet would be a rock with no life. This just sounds like it's made to sound cool and make it "different" but it's...not...it's just kinda silly.


The Humans revere the western sun, Tyendol, and value vitality and music. They control three kingdoms on the western side of Kili-Ana.

All three countries revere the same exact things? And only two things at that? I'm worried that every race is subsequently going to be hammered into a set like this. Cultures aren't like that. Why are they three kingdoms when they worship the same thing the same way and their culture seems to be the same?


The Haleen are a race of rocky people (essentially rock golems, but completely sentient). They revere the north sun, Halowet, which represents diligence and passion. The live on the northern edge of the continent, beneath the Great Northern Mountains. The Haleen are loosely based on Dwarves, i.e., live underground, love to mine and craft wondrous items, and tend to be greedy. They are also loosely based on Deaf Culture, and use sign language and a serious of different pitched hums to communicate.

Based on...what? Deaf Culture? Do you have some experience with this or did you just think it was interesting? How would you write this? How would you convey this? Also rock people based on Dwarves? Why just not make them Dwarves? Why re-name the rose? Nothing you've written makes them sound like they're anything different than what you're basing them on. They're just dwarves made of rock (you're not the first to do that). I'd also point out that a language that uses almost no vocal ques in an underground race....where it's dark...makes absolutely no sense unless they can also see in the dark.


The Renal are humanoid bird creatures. They revere the eastern sun, Renalfa, which represents science and magic. They live on the eastern side of the continent among the mountains and lakes. Renal are loosely based on Elves, in that they are incredibly intelligent, eccentric, and far more advanced than the other races, but keep themselves secluded from outsiders and rarely share their secrets.

Maybe find a different name. Renal means anything relating to kidneys. Bird race that loves magic and science...and they're elves. So they're just elves. Not loosely based on elves. That's exactly what they are. With feathers.


Finally, the Noleitin are a race of metallic humanoids. They revere the southern sun, Narlowet, which represents war and dance. They are not man-made or cyborgs, but rather are organic creatures composed entirely of metal. They are loosely based on Drow, in that they have enmity with the other races, especially the humans. They prefer guerrilla warfare and assassination. They are very intelligent creatures, more so than most humans, and most are not opposed to peaceful co-existence, but they have been stigmatized by ancient conflict and have been unable to come to terms with the humans whom they have been warring with for generations.

Why do they have enmity and....how are they based on the drow? Do the metallic humanoids have a matriarchal society? Do they even have genders and if so...why?


Magic in this world is highly individualistic. There are a couple dozen groupings of magic that have been penned down by scholars, most notably the Nine Elemental Magics (Water, Earth, Ice, Air, Fire, Lightning, Gravity, Light, and Darkness), Word Magic, which uses a magical language to form various spells, Flora, Fauna, and Weather Magics, Sun and Moon Magics, Alchemy, Divination, and many others.

OH. BOY. You should, if you haven't, read some Brandon Sanderson because he's basically doing everything you've got written here and in like a billion or so words. Not only is your world very similar with....random Not-Standard fantasy races but this idea on magic...is...Everything you've written just sounds so generic with a thin veneer of trying to make it seem unique without understanding that tons of authors have beaten you to every punch so it just comes off...poorly. I know this is a hobby but if you really are interested in publishing this...you need to make it your own thing without just replacing the word dwarf with some made up fantasy name and then saying they're different.

[Honest Tiefling]

Why can't a culture revere a super-duper awesome sun that encompasses ALL virtues? How did everyone agree that the suns represent different things, and why did everyone pick the same object? And why was there no fighting over who got the bigger sun?

Does the sun...Do things? Thing about gods is that they tend to do things when you pray at them. They revere them, but is it just like a symbol, or does the sun talk to them?

[Norrefve]

The first two are honestly fairly not the same. D&D may have cribbed some things from Tolkien but it's honestly all surface level. Citing Paolini...does not fill me with anything but dread frankly. His world building (and everything else) was...sub-par at best.



Four...suns? That's the first red flag. Why four suns rather then the different cultures revering the sun for different reasons? We'll get to those parts in a bit but...a planet with two suns is already pretty screwed up. Four suns? The planet would be a rock with no life. This just sounds like it's made to sound cool and make it "different" but it's...not...it's just kinda silly.



All three countries revere the same exact things? And only two things at that? I'm worried that every race is subsequently going to be hammered into a set like this. Cultures aren't like that. Why are they three kingdoms when they worship the same thing the same way and their culture seems to be the same?



Based on...what? Deaf Culture? Do you have some experience with this or did you just think it was interesting? How would you write this? How would you convey this? Also rock people based on Dwarves? Why just not make them Dwarves? Why re-name the rose? Nothing you've written makes them sound like they're anything different than what you're basing them on. They're just dwarves made of rock (you're not the first to do that). I'd also point out that a language that uses almost no vocal ques in an underground race....where it's dark...makes absolutely no sense unless they can also see in the dark.



Maybe find a different name. Renal means anything relating to kidneys. Bird race that loves magic and science...and they're elves. So they're just elves. Not loosely based on elves. That's exactly what they are. With feathers.



Why do they have enmity and....how are they based on the drow? Do the metallic humanoids have a matriarchal society? Do they even have genders and if so...why?



OH. BOY. You should, if you haven't, read some Brandon Sanderson because he's basically doing everything you've got written here and in like a billion or so words. Not only is your world very similar with....random Not-Standard fantasy races but this idea on magic...is...Everything you've written just sounds so generic with a thin veneer of trying to make it seem unique without understanding that tons of authors have beaten you to every punch so it just comes off...poorly. I know this is a hobby but if you really are interested in publishing this...you need to make it your own thing without just replacing the word dwarf with some made up fantasy name and then saying they're different.

Ok, I'm just gonna take everything with a grain of salt.

First of all, I have to stress that this is an extremely basic overview of the world. I tried to relate the concepts to things that were recognizable so that I didn't have to spend pages explaining the histories and intricacies of every single culture (that's what the google doc is for). No. Everything isn't a carbon copy of the typical Dwarves and Elves with a different name, they are just the most similar so I don't bore people to death explaining it. Also notice that I said "loosely" every time.

I admit that four suns is pretty far-fetched. I only hung on to the concept because I thought it might be cool (when I was in High School). Now that I have learned a lot more and taken an astronomy class, it would probably be better to have one sun that manifests different aspects at different times.

Once again, I didn't want to go into crazy detail about the three human kingdoms (or the three Noleit kingdoms, or the four Haleen kingdoms, or the nine Renal kingdoms) because I didn't want to get too detailed. Yes, of course the cultures are different from each other, that's why they are different cultures. The race as a whole reveres music and vitality, the individual cultures have much more specific values.

Yes, I have experience with Deaf Culture. I have been taking a sign language class for over two years. If you don't know anything about it, I highly suggest you look into it, it's pretty fascinating!
Now that you mention it, an underground race using sign language does seem silly, though I did think of it before and thought of ways it would work (thermal/minimal lighting vision, lanterns, glowing rocks, etc.)

I didn't know Renal meant relating to the kidneys, so thanks! My pronunciation is different, though, so I think a simple spelling change to make that clearer would work. Something like Runahl.

Long story short, the Noleitin became angry when the humans expanded their lands and began crossing over into the Noleitin's territory. The disputes broke out into war, and the wars have been fought off and on for so long, that no one really remembers what happened in the first place. They are like the Drow simply because people don't trust them and will attack them on sight (I couldn't of a different race that was comparable off the top of my head).

I have read some of Brandon Sanderson's work, and I don't remember it being that similar to what I came up with, but thank you for pointing that out. If it helps it to be more original, I will explain that the nine elemental magics relate to nine different aspects of an individual. Water to blood, earth to flesh, ice to bone, fire to life, air to breath, lightning to thought, light and darkness to the conscience (light to the part that tells you you are doing the right thing, darkness to what makes you feel guilty), and gravity to sanity.

If you are interested in reading more, I am more than happy to PM you the link. The "10,000-foot view", so to speak, doesn't exactly do it justice. But if you are just reading casually I understand.


Why can't a culture revere a super-duper awesome sun that encompasses ALL virtues? How did everyone agree that the suns represent different things, and why did everyone pick the same object? And why was there no fighting over who got the bigger sun?

Does the sun...Do things? Thing about gods is that they tend to do things when you pray at them. They revere them, but is it just like a symbol, or does the sun talk to them?

Good questions!

There were once powerful gods, many millennia ago, who have since spent the majority of their power and now lie dormant in the form of stars, moons, and, most prominently, the suns. The rays of these suns increase the aspects that the races revere (since those suns birthed those races in the first place). The suns are no longer sentient, but can sense when mortals are "praying" to them, and will bless those who pray with more of their benefits, be it magic, passion, or whatever else.

Though, now that Razade has pointed out the ludicrous nature of four suns, I might have to revise how exactly this works. :smalltongue:

Let me know if you are interested in more, and I will send you the link!

[lio45]

Actually, if there are actually four suns (not a strict astrophysical impossibility, I guess), then it's guaranteed that each culture will have evolved to revere all suns, assigning different characteristics to each sun.

It seems highly un-natural that each culture, evolving separately, would have just picked one sun to revere while ignoring the other three. Even more un-natural that the four main culture groups would each have picked a different sun while choosing to ignore the "right" three other suns.

Normally, a given culture is totally self-centered. If there are four suns out there and they worship suns, they won't "leave most suns for alien cultures to worship", limiting themselves in their worship. That would be like the Romans somehow thinking they can't have Venus because the Germanic tribes already have Freya. Nonsense; cultures always overlap greatly. On Earth, most cultures had their own version of whatever the Sun was supposed to be - there isn't only one earthly culture that "got" to have the Sun as a deity, and the others all had to pass on it.

[An Enemy Spy]

The multiple suns that represent different things sounds a lot like Mirrodin from Magic the Gathering, which has five suns that represent the five colors of mana. Speaking of mana, how is "phasse" any different or less gimicky? Mana is a concept from Polynesian culture that has to do with supernatural power. Phasse seems to be a word you made up because you didn't want to use the word mana.

[JNAProductions]

I won't say much, but you say Phasse is mana, but less gimmicky.

How is it any less gimmicky?

[Sermil]

Magic in this world is highly individualistic. There are a couple dozen groupings of magic that have been penned down by scholars, most notably the Nine Elemental Magics (Water, Earth, Ice, Air, Fire, Lightning, Gravity, Light, and Darkness), Word Magic, which uses a magical language to form various spells, Flora, Fauna, and Weather Magics, Sun and Moon Magics, Alchemy, Divination, and many others.



I will say, that seems like a lot of different magic systems. Are you planning to explain these all to the reader?

If you are just planning to keep it pretty vague, and say "Valitina was strong with Fire and Summoning magic, but had never really been able to control Water magic", and then have Valitina cast whatever spells she needs to except no water-related spells, I think that's fine. I'm thinking of something like Lackey's Vows and Honor series: Kethry said she was in the "White Winds" school of magic, and mentioned one or two minor restrictions (she wasn't allow to control or summon evil forces), but basically she cast whatever spell the plot required her to cast -- or whatever looked cool, in a fight -- and there wasn't much development of the magic system beyond that.

But if you're going more Sanderson and actually trying to explain what magic can and cannot do -- I suspect that's way too much complexity. Yes, Sanderson had three types of magic, but one of the magic types was only used by the bad guys and never really explained, and the other two basically got an entire book to introduce them. There were 16 (or whatever) metals, but each one did one very specific thing -- they were really individual spells, not magic groups -- and even with that, some of the metals didn't get much screen time, especially the Feruchemy abilities.

The fact that you are listing all the different things that happen to someone if they run out of mana, with each school having a different result, makes me a little worried you're going down the second path. It's too much for the reader unless you have some way to pare it down. (Sure, there are 50 types of magic, but the main character has one and you don't need to understand the other 49 to enjoy the story.)

[Murk]

Normally, a given culture is totally self-centered. If there are four suns out there and they worship suns, they won't "leave most suns for alien cultures to worship", limiting themselves in their worship. That would be like the Romans somehow thinking they can't have Venus because the Germanic tribes already have Freya. Nonsense; cultures always overlap greatly. On Earth, most cultures had their own version of whatever the Sun was supposed to be - there isn't only one earthly culture that "got" to have the Sun as a deity, and the others all had to pass on it.

Eh, suns are pretty similar. Especially if each race has the prime view on one of the four suns (I mean, it's not a simple heliocentric solar system, so who knows), it is very plausible for the sun-worship to become "My sun is better than your sun!" or at least "My sun is better for me than your sun".

[Norrefve]

So it sounds like people have the most questions about the magic system. First, about phasse, yes I chose the different word, because I didn't want to directly rip off mana and make it more my own thing. I suppose I could have phasse be the generic term, and different cultures alternatively call it "mana", or "chi", or other related terms, but that seems a little Robert Jordan Wheel-of-timey. Thoughts about the name?
I said it was less gimmicky because phasse is not expressed in arbitrary units like mana is in Final Fantasy or similar games (though I guess I haven't really read any literature that uses mana as a medium for magic, so I can't speak for that). Phasse is also a little more complicated than mana, it doesn't recharge at the same rate for everybody, and works a little differently for the different types of magic (i.e. fire magic uses a lot more phasse for each spell than water magic).

Speaking of, to answer Sermil's questions: I don't think it is complex as you are thinking. When I introduce magic in the book, it will probably be a cursory description like it is here, and be more specific when it relates to the main characters. Every person, more or less, has the same phasse as the next guy, the question is, which kind of magic are they able to use with that phasse? The vast majority of people can only use one kind of magic. Period. There are a few people who can use two types, called sages, but they are very rare.

As for what happens to people when they run out, apart from the elemental magics, it is extremely intuitive; word mages will have more difficulty reading, writing, and speaking, and most of the more uncommon types just make it so that casting spells in general becomes more difficult. Does that help simplify it?

Now about the suns: @An Enemy Spy: I haven't ever played Magic, so thank you for letting me know about that!
The reason each race worships one sun more than the others is because the races were created by the sun that they worship, respectively. Each sun had a solar flare at some point that created each of the races (I suppose I should have mentioned that from the get-go). Also, the sun they worship rises directly over their land on the days that it rises (west sun from the west, south from the south, etc. rather than always rising in the east and setting in the west).

Does this help?

Also, I just want to reiterate that I would rather have the critiques happen on the google doc, where people can have the full info, and I can reply more easily than here on this forum.
Please let me know if you are interested in having the link. :smallbiggrin:

[Razade]

Sure, I'll take a link to your drive folder.

[veti]

OK, I just need to get this off my chest...

"Mana", in case you didn't know, is a Maori word that translates, approximately, to "respect, prestige, authority". Hence it represents the ability to get things done, even without doing them yourself. And from there comes the association with "magic".

(To this day, in New Zealand, we talk about "mana" as a property that some people - most notably, politicians - possess to a greater or lesser degree. There's even a "Mana Party". Nobody imagines there's anything magic about them.)

If you're talking about a game setting, I suggest you just call it "magic reserves" or "magic points" or "magic level" and be done with it. Giving it a cool-sounding name - is the opposite of making it "less gimmicky".

[lio45]

I honestly think the best thing you could do, given that it's for a novel, is to just go with the most standard fantasy universe possible. There'll be magic, elves, dragons, etc. but your readers won't have to get familiar with and remember all kinds of stuff that doesn't really add anything to the plot and story, and which they'll never see again anyway.

[The Eye]

I honestly think the best thing you could do, given that it's for a novel, is to just go with the most standard fantasy universe possible. There'll be magic, elves, dragons, etc. but your readers won't have to get familiar with and remember all kinds of stuff that doesn't really add anything to the plot and story, and which they'll never see again anyway.

I disagree, I’m tired of the standard fantasy settings, isn’t it ironic that the phrase "standard fantasy setting" exists? We've managed to find mundanity in something that is not real!

Why is it accepted fact that elves fire bows and arrows and love nature? That was Tolkien's thing.

Bring something new to the table or be lost in the sea of generic fantasy setting that don’t add anything new to the already exhausted formula.

[lio45]

I disagree, I’m tired of the standard fantasy settings, isn’t it ironic that the phrase "standard fantasy setting" exists? We've managed to find mundanity in something that is not real!

Why is it accepted fact that elves fire bows and arrows and love nature? That was Tolkien's thing.

Bring something new to the table or be lost in the sea of generic fantasy setting that don’t add anything new to the already exhausted formula.

Uh, most of the highest-quality stories I've read were actually set in the most banal and most standard setting imaginable - the real world.

The setting is irrelevant to the quality of the story you're telling. Calling your magic "phasse", making your magic-users be magic people due to their midi-chlorians, etc. just burdens the narrative needlessly. If it's a fantasy tale you want to tell, your story will be lighter and more enjoyable to most readers IMO if you don't reinvent the wheel on every count and force them to get familiar with new-yet-totally-recycled/repurposed concepts.

[Razade]

Having seen the Google Doc I just....


All of it is so needlessly complex to a point of pedantry. Renaming of generally expected fantasy tropes to make them "unique" which we've already seen pointed out does exactly the opposite. Needlessly convoluted magic that would just bog down the story with explanations...really trite reasoning involved with all of it. If you're going to write a book, self publish. There's no way any publisher will pick this up. The cultures don't feel natural. They're so clean cut without any real overlap or interaction that they feel like their entire history was mostly written without the idea they're sharing space with other cultures. I don't know how long ago "high school" was for you but if it's more than four years you need to just start over. None of this is usable for any kind of story as it's presented.

[The Eye]

Uh, most of the highest-quality stories I've read were actually set in the most banal and most standard setting imaginable - the real world.

We are not talking about the real world.


The setting is irrelevant to the quality of the story you're telling. Calling your magic "phasse", making your magic-users be magic people due to their midi-chlorians, etc. Just burdens the narrative needlessly. If it's a fantasy tale you want to tell, your story will be lighter and more enjoyable to most readers IMO if you don't reinvent the wheel on every count and force them to get familiar with new-yet-totally-recycled/repurposed concepts.

The constant use of fantasy tropes bore me to no end, in this aspect sci-fi is a lot better than fantasy; can you imagine if Star trek was the base for all sci-fi movies and books? All races were nothing but renamed or clones of Vulcans and Klingons?

Thankfully we don't use the works of Gene Roddenberry in sci-fi as we use the works of J. R. R. Tolkien in fantasy.

Thanks to that we are always getting original alien races such as the Xenomorphs, the Asari, Kryptonians, Daleks, Celestials, Shi'ar, Skrulls, etc...

[Sermil]

The constant use of fantasy tropes bore me to no end, in this aspect sci-fi is a lot better than fantasy; can you imagine if Star trek was the base for all sci-fi movies and books? All races were nothing but renamed or clones of Vulcans and Klingons?


Eh, the "standard fantasy setting" is a tool. A good author knows when and how to use it, and when not to.

The advantage of using some of the stock setting is that most readers won't think about it too much, and the author doesn't need to spend much time explaining it, leaving more time for the things that the author does care about. It's a matter of focus. You only have so many words before the reader gets bored, so you need to pick & choose what to spend your time on. E.g. Wheel of Time spent a lot of time on its magic system, because the details (the male/female separation, the taint on the male half, etc) were important to the world and the plot. But the physical arms technology was pure stock "swords, mail, and castles" -- Aragorn could have walked into that world and been swinging a sword a day later. Why? Because the physical tech wasn't that important, so Jordon de-emphasized it by making it the same as all the other fantasy worlds.



Thankfully we don't use the works of Gene Roddenberry in sci-fi as we use the works of J. R. R. Tolkien in fantasy.


Four words: "Set phasers to stun". Many "spaceship"-style sci-fi worlds have some sort of 'stun beam' nowadays. Star Wars had them ("There's one. Set for stun!") Vorkosigan saga had stunners. That's not particularly realistic -- there's no such thing as a gun that knocks people out without hurting them, that acts fast enough to be used in combat -- but you see it in SF because it's a known thing which you can easy throw in to explain how you captured the princess, or let the hero overpower the villain without killing her, or whatever, without having to explain in depth.

Or how many sci-fi universes have 'shields' like the Enterprise did? Star Wars, Mass Effect, Vorkosigan saga (sort of), Mote in God's Eye, just off the top of my head. How many of them even try to explain how the shields work? Mostly, the author just says "I want to have space-to-space battles without everyone instantly dying to the first energy bolt, so I'll copy Star Trek's shields and say the ships can somehow take a bunch of shots before they explode."

I think there is a 'standard' sci-fi universe (large spaceships, faster-than-light travel, energy weapons & shields, multiple humanoid alien races, per-race or per-planet governments, computers which are better than current ones but not more intelligent than humans, universal translators, instantaneous long-range communications, etc). Many books take pieces of the standard setting for the things they don't want to spend time on, and then foreground the pieces the author cares about -- so the Culture books discard the "computers aren't smarter than humans" piece and spends most of the books working out the implications of hyper-intelligent computers, while basically handwaving FTL travel. In contrast, Vorkosigan saga wants to talk about the effects of medical and genetic technologies on societies, so it handwaves a lot of the weaponry and shields and FTL, and never ever touches the issue of why its computers are so dumb. Neptune's Brood wants to talk about finance under interstellar conditions where transactions take years due to light-speed limits, so it discards the "instant communications" and "FTL travel" parts of the standard setting, but keeps many of the others, particularly the "computers aren't hyper-intelligent" piece. (The characters in the story are all, by our standards, AIs, but they are noticeably at about the same intelligence level as bio-humans.)

So, back to the original topic: Choosing to make up new non-standard fantasy elements is a choice. Do it because it serves some part of the theme or plot. Having lots and lots of non-standard elements can make your story feel fresh and original, but explaining those non-standard elements also risks taking time and focus away from the characters or the aspects you do care about. Sometimes, accepting the standard elements allows you to background those elements and increase your focus on something more interesting.

[The Eye]

Four words: "Set phasers to stun". Many "spaceship"-style sci-fi worlds have some sort of 'stun beam' nowadays. Star Wars had them ("There's one. Set for stun!") Vorkosigan saga had stunners. That's not particularly realistic -- there's no such thing as a gun that knocks people out without hurting them, that acts fast enough to be used in combat -- but you see it in SF because it's a known thing which you can easy throw in to explain how you captured the princess, or let the hero overpower the villain without killing her, or whatever, without having to explain in depth.

Or how many sci-fi universes have 'shields' like the Enterprise did? Star Wars, Mass Effect, Vorkosigan saga (sort of), Mote in God's Eye, just off the top of my head. How many of them even try to explain how the shields work? Mostly, the author just says "I want to have space-to-space battles without everyone instantly dying to the first energy bolt, so I'll copy Star Trek's shields and say the ships can somehow take a bunch of shots before they explode."

I think there is a 'standard' sci-fi universe (large spaceships, faster-than-light travel, energy weapons & shields, multiple humanoid alien races, per-race or per-planet governments, computers which are better than current ones but not more intelligent than humans, universal translators, instantaneous long-range communications, etc). Many books take pieces of the standard setting for the things they don't want to spend time on, and then foreground the pieces the author cares about -- so the Culture books discard the "computers aren't smarter than humans" piece and spends most of the books working out the implications of hyper-intelligent computers, which basically handwaving FTL travel. In contrast, Vorkosigan saga wants to talk about the effects of medical and genetic technologies on societies, so it handwaves a lot of the weaponry and shields and FTL, and never ever touches the issue of why its computers are so dumb. Neptune's Brood wants to talk about finance under interstellar conditions where transactions take years due to light-speed limits, so it discards the "instant communications" and "FTL travel" parts of the standard setting, but keeps many of the others, particularly the "computers aren't hyper-intelligent" piece. (The characters in the story are all, by our standards, AIs, but they are noticeably at about the same intelligence level as bio-humans.)

I was referring to races and not themes.:smallsigh::smallannoyed:

[Norrefve]

Sorry I haven't posted in a while. I've been thinking a lot about what people have been saying and ways to improve the "common sense" aspects of the world. Having things in there that sound cool, but either make no sense, or have to have such convoluted explanations that they are tedious and bog down the other elements of the story are unnecessary, so I'm taking steps to try to cut some of that out.

1. While I appreciate all of your opinions about "standard" vs. "non-standard" fantasy settings/races, I have simply put too much time and thought into the races I have created to just turn them into the instantly recognizable races everyone has seen thousands of times. Although I made them seem similar here on paper, they really are vastly different from what I related them to.

2. I agree that the "4 suns and 9 moons" thing seems really convoluted. To simplify it, instead of having the 4 suns appear one at a time every four days, I will instead have one of the four suns, and only that sun, rise for each of the four seasons. For example, Narlowet is the coldest sun, and it will rise in the south and set in the north for the entire season of Winter. Once Winter has passed, Tyendol will begin to rise in the west as the Sun of Spring. This is much less confusing (at least in my mind), and is a lot easier to explain than the old way I had it.

In terms of actual astrophysics, I could have it so that the planet is really orbiting a single sun, but depending on what angle the light is shining on the continent, it's "divine" or "magical" effects will change, thus bringing about the different names and deities associated with the "4 suns". (I think that makes sense? Maybe?)

At any rate, this is NOT a sci-fi story, so none of the characters are going to get too caught up with the way the heavenly lights work, but rather with how they directly influence their lives. That's the biggest reason why I was making such huge leaps in logic, but now I see that the leaps were just too big.

And I just want to reiterate that each of the races reveres only one sun (more than the others) because that sun was responsible for the creation of that race.

3. Magic is a big part of the world, and something that I really enjoy in other settings, so that's why I have spent so much time working on it. The unfortunate side-effect is that is has now become overly complex, at least according to all of you.

I think that how the nine elements relate to the nine aspects of individuals is pretty intuitive (like I listed before:Water to blood, earth to flesh, ice to bone, fire to life, air to breath, lightning to thought, light and darkness to the conscience (light to justice, darkness to guilt), and gravity to sanity.). First of all, am I wrong in the assumption that these relationships are intuitive?

Instead of heaping more kinds of magic on top of these that have their own rules, I would change it so that all types of magic fall into one of these nine categories. For instance, Life Magic would encompass fire magic, healing magic, and fauna magic. Thought Magic would encompass lightning magic, telepathy, and sense magic (as in, the 5 senses). And so on with the other magics. Each mage is still only compatible with one kind of magic (fire OR healing OR fauna magic) but all of those magics operate the same way, i.e. they all drain a person's life force if their magical abilities are abused.

I feel like this makes it a lot less complicated, but maybe I'm just disillusioned because it all already made sense to me. Thoughts?

[5a Violista]

I'll go through each part of the post separately, to make sure I discuss every point:


1. While I appreciate all of your opinions about "standard" vs. "non-standard" fantasy settings/races, I have simply put too much time and thought into the races I have created to just turn them into the instantly recognizable races everyone has seen thousands of times. Although I made them seem similar here on paper, they really are vastly different from what I related them to. That's fair. Every setting should have something that sets it apart. Having the standard fantasy races does get somewhat boring and stereotypical on occasion. In my opinion, as long as you show (instead of just tell) how each of your non-standard races are different, it should be fine. My suggestion is to either have the nonstandard races prominent enough so that you have time to explain them, or you have them in the distant background so you don't need to.




2. I agree that the "4 suns and 9 moons" thing seems really convoluted. To simplify it, instead of having the 4 suns appear one at a time every four days, I will instead have one of the four suns, and only that sun, rise for each of the four seasons. For example, Narlowet is the coldest sun, and it will rise in the south and set in the north for the entire season of Winter. Once Winter has passed, Tyendol will begin to rise in the west as the Sun of Spring. This is much less confusing (at least in my mind), and is a lot easier to explain than the old way I had it.

In terms of actual astrophysics, I could have it so that the planet is really orbiting a single sun, but depending on what angle the light is shining on the continent, it's "divine" or "magical" effects will change, thus bringing about the different names and deities associated with the "4 suns". (I think that makes sense? Maybe?) That is a lot simpler, and seems better. Compared to "four suns" it doesn't feel as mind-numbing and confusing. I would probably do this slightly differently: instead of it just coming from the four cardinal directions, it moves across the sky in a circular-like path, from a slightly different direction each day of the year. For example, at the "equinoxes" and "solstices" it moves directly in the direction of the compass direction, but the other days in the year are somewhere in between. Winter Solstice, it comes directly from the south. Spring Equinox, it comes directly from the west (and, thus, the Spring Sun mysticism is the strongest during that day). Halfway between that equinox and that solstice, it comes from the south-west. Halfway between that halfway point and that solstice, it comes from south-by-southwest. The day after the solstice, it comes from "Nearly South, but one degree west". To me, that would feel better than abruptly changing ninety degrees each season: the ninety degree change is spread out over the transition into the next season.




At any rate, this is NOT a sci-fi story, so none of the characters are going to get too caught up with the way the heavenly lights work, but rather with how they directly influence their lives. That's the biggest reason why I was making such huge leaps in logic, but now I see that the leaps were just too big.

And I just want to reiterate that each of the races reveres only one sun (more than the others) because that sun was responsible for the creation of that race.
Having the sun come from each direction leads to "each race reveres one sun" making more sense, if each race also originally comes from each compass direction. For example, the race that reveres the Winter Sun coming from the south (because the sun rises near their kingdom in the winter). The race that reveres the Spring Sun originates in the West (because the sun rises over their homeland in the spring). And so on.




3. Magic is a big part of the world, and something that I really enjoy in other settings, so that's why I have spent so much time working on it. The unfortunate side-effect is that is has now become overly complex, at least according to all of you.

I think that how the nine elements relate to the nine aspects of individuals is pretty intuitive (like I listed before:Water to blood, earth to flesh, ice to bone, fire to life, air to breath, lightning to thought, light and darkness to the conscience (light to justice, darkness to guilt), and gravity to sanity.). First of all, am I wrong in the assumption that these relationships are intuitive?
To me, this is fairly intuitive and I like its relative simplicity. Water and Blood are tied together pretty easiliy, as is earth and flesh. I can see how ice and bone are connected. Fire is frequently used as a metaphor for life. Air and breath are essentially the same thing (in metaphors). Lightning and thought works, but largely because of our modern understanding of how thought and neurons work. Light and dark seem to fit with conscience fairly well. Initially, I couldn't see the connection between gravity and sanity (sanity keeps you grounded in the real world) but I can understand it now, so that means it isn't intuitive, but it does make sense. ((Intuitive means it doesn't need thought or explanation behind it, and I had to think through possible justifications for it.)) It works because so many of the other ones work intuitively.




Instead of heaping more kinds of magic on top of these that have their own rules, I would change it so that all types of magic fall into one of these nine categories. For instance, Life Magic would encompass fire magic, healing magic, and fauna magic. Thought Magic would encompass lightning magic, telepathy, and sense magic (as in, the 5 senses). And so on with the other magics. Each mage is still only compatible with one kind of magic (fire OR healing OR fauna magic) but all of those magics operate the same way, i.e. they all drain a person's life force if their magical abilities are abused.

I feel like this makes it a lot less complicated, but maybe I'm just disillusioned because it all already made sense to me. Thoughts?This makes sense to me. If you want magic tied to the calendar, you could make there be 9 months. (Edit: On second thought, I don't really like that idea: making complicated calendars distracts readers from understanding the world because it draws so much of their focus to the calendars instead of the races and magic system.)