Is killing players and cohorts bad?

[Calthropstu]

I have been killing pcs and cohorts at what to me is an alarming rate. (about once a session for the past 4 sessions.) Granted, there's a mcguffin that will ressurect them once a month, but it is still extremely troublesome how often the party has to spend resources to remove the negative levels.

I am running a pf game adventure module. All the numbers say they should be stomping these things, but every game they hit an encounter they just barely pull through. And it's not the ones I expect them to be during prep either.
Looking at the module and knowing what their characters have, I think I know what the problem may be... equipment has been very difficult to come by. They are lvl 8 and they just barely got a couple headbands +2. Their ac is kinda low as well.
They are in the middle of a dungeon delve at the moment, and they just rested, but were assaulted in the night by the dungeon leader... a hit and run attack.
Their caravan took some serious damage, one wagon was all but destroyed. They have no avenue of getting serious gear in the near future.

However, the first part of the campaign mentioned that items should be "destined" for the party members. So, I am thinking I should put a captured mercane in the current dungeon who can sell them some stuff, and even give them a special reward.
Would this be a good addition or should I stick to the treasure in the book (which is actually kinda pitiful)

[EldritchWeaver]

I'm not sure what you want to hear from us, seeing you answered your own question ("Is having basically no level appropriate equipment bad in D&D/PF?" "Yes, the rules assume so."). It could be that your players are bad at optimizing as well, but without knowing their builds, I can't say. If this would be the case, I would talk with them to help them with building characters better. If it is truly an equipment problem, you could also add a forgotten cache somewhere the group stumbles upon. Or switch to the automatic bonus progression rules.

[Calthropstu]

I'm not sure what you want to hear from us, seeing you answered your own question ("Is having basically no level appropriate equipment bad in D&D/PF?" "Yes, the rules assume so."). It could be that your players are bad at optimizing as well, but without knowing their builds, I can't say. If this would be the case, I would talk with them to help them with building characters better. If it is truly an equipment problem, you could also add a forgotten cache somewhere the group stumbles upon. Or switch to the automatic bonus progression rules.

Actually, most of them deliberately refuse to optimize, preferring rp heavy builds. But they aren't "bad" characters either. They have a tattoo wizard, a magus, a druid and I am running a life oracle as support. They had a monk (which I killed) which then switched to a barbarian (which I killed) which then switched to a ranger but dropped shortly after.
Our last session the magus' cohort (also a magus) was swallowed alive, then killed by acid damage.
I've pretty much killed every pc at least once except the druid, who is relatively new to the group... and he has been dropped more than once.

I am wondering if there would be other alternatives than just throwing them equipment. I am loathe to alter the monsters too much because I do want it to be challenging, but I would prefer not to murder everyone.

[Sam K]

Up to you and your players if it's bad. Some players enjoy really challenging games. Some people feel that struggling just to stay alive (and keep up with the losses from dying) is a grand game of D&D. My experience, however, is that most people quickly tire of the feeling of being the DMs punching bag, no matter how "realistic" and "gritty" the game is.

Since you're asking, I will assume that there is some worry from you and/or your players, regarding the casualty rate of the game: in that case, lack of gear is almost always going to be a big factor. Especially if your players aren't very optimized, they NEED gear to stay alive at mid-to-high levels. CR and most adventure models assume that players have their aproximate WBL in useful equipment that support their playstyle (that is, wizards have scrolls and items that boost int, fighters have armor and the weapons they specialize in, and so on...) While you can run a great game without caring about WBL (I'm currently in one where the GMs mentality is that I get the loot I can take, and I lose the loot if the story goes that way - it's great fun) but unless the players are very good at optimizing they will have a very hard time with supposedly balanced encounters.

[Calthropstu]

The funny thing is they don't lose to the high cr encounters... it's the fights 2 levels below their level that is killing them. CRs 1-2 higher than them they trounce, but throw 2 cr 6 or a cr 7 at them, and they struggle to stay alive.

[Thunder999]

It depends why they're dying, if like here it's because you messed up the balance by not giving them the right gear (stick to the wealth by level guidelines and make magic weapons and such readily available, they're not rare treasures, they're an expected part of game balance, the CR system assumes players have an appropriate amount of wealth in magic items), or by using encounters with too high CR and no easy way out then it is very much a bad thing that you need to fix. If a player goes down in a fair fight due to the luck of the dice or poor decision making then that's just part of the game.

[Sam K]

The funny thing is they don't lose to the high cr encounters... it's the fights 2 levels below their level that is killing them. CRs 1-2 higher than them they trounce, but throw 2 cr 6 or a cr 7 at them, and they struggle to stay alive.

Could you give some examples?

The CR system isn't very fine grained: some high CR critters are pure brutes, while some lower CR creatures are pure nastiness, and can be very hard to overcome without the right tools and tricks. Is there any kind of specific type of challenges they have problems defeating?

[Quertus]

How did they get to be such underfunded characters in the first place?

[Pex]

The concept of a PC or cohort dying is fine. It's an unfortunate happenstance that can happen. It's part of the game. However, if it's happening once a game session something is wrong. The DM is making the game too hard, the players are being stupid, or both.

On the DM's side, check the math of the game. Are you using too tough monsters for the PC's level and abilities, too many monsters in a combat for the PCs to handle? Are you metagaming too much by giving the monsters tactics or abilities to foil the PCs strengths they couldn't possibly know because you want to "challenge" them. Are you always negating a PC's neat trick or idea?

On the players' side, check their tactics. Are they working as a team? Are they using all their characters' abilities? Do they use their stuff, such as magic items and one-time use items, or are they always saving for a rainy day? Do they attack everything?

[Malimar]

No "yes, it's very bad to kill your players, you can go to jail for that" joke yet? For shame.

[Elkad]

Player inexperience is huge. If they can't manage a battlefield, things get MUCH harder. Whether that's BFC, or just smart positioning doesn't matter.

And I've seen (and been part of) some rather crazy things.
One example. Party of 8 L6 characters, plus sidekicks (cohorts, hirelings, animal companions, familiars, warhorses for everyone, etc). 4 of them were in their first campaign, but we'd played a bunch of sessions by then. Others (like me, playing a vanilla rogue) had been playing for 20-30 years. Gear was maybe a little thin, but we had the basics of magic armor, weapons, wands, etc. We'd handled encounters the DM said he didn't intend us to even fight, much less win.

Openfield fight vs 2 CR5 Manticores (flying of course).

Should be cake. Everything, especially action economy, points to an easy win for the players.

We lost all the horses, an animal companion, and FOUR PCs! Manticore initial strafing runs had some hot dice (I went unconscious from 3 spikes on the first volley), but when faced with our first flying monsters ever, everyone just went to pieces. Even when they ran out of tail spikes and landed to "finish us off", people were running past opportunity attacks trying to stabilize another player who was still 6 rounds from bleeding out, etc.

[GrayDeath]

No "yes, it's very bad to kill your players, you can go to jail for that" joke yet? For shame.


I wasn't here.

"It is.never a.good.idea to.kill players, it's both immoral and will result.in bad karma and.most likely jail time."

Now.that that's out.of.the way, the model suggests.not adhering to wbl? That sounds really.weird, can you give us more details?
Also more details onnthe encounters.that kill.them, please.

[Lazymancer]

There was a thread about criminal players recently, now this.

Yes. Killing players is bad. Unless they voted for [insert political party], of course.




(about once a session for the past 4 sessions.)
I assumed TPKs every session from the way you were describing it.

Litmus test: count how many times the party was ambushed and how may times did the party successfully ambush someone. Is the first number higher?

If so, until they improve you will:
1) Take away their McGuffin. Dead is dead.
2) Make new characters roll 3d6 in order for stats.
3) Introduce permanent disfiguration on critical hits.
4) Practice to laugh maniacally.
5) Roll dice for no reason and ask what Perception bonuses characters have.
6) Play Trololo song during battles.
7) Have local king tax all loot (80% belongs to crown).

tl;dr: motivate them play the game, not play the play.

If everything is bad, party should get out of Dodge or join BBEG. Don't treat adventure module like a holy scripture party must act through.

[Manyasone]

Question OP. Are they dealing with cursed dice? It happens. The scenario you describe i had happen to me, receiving end. You could almost see our dm his hair turning grey. When we rolled about five natural ones in a row i decided to grab a beer. My character was pin cushioned between hamatulas anyway

[Calthropstu]

How did they get to be such underfunded characters in the first place?

They aren't exactly underfunded but there are 2 factors contributing to the problem:
1 their caravan. They have had to sink a considerable amount of money into it.
2 they are in the middle of the north pole. They have a good amount of money but nowhere to spend it.


No "yes, it's very bad to kill your players, you can go to jail for that" joke yet? For shame.
I was expecting it too lol.


I wasn't here.

"It is.never a.good.idea to.kill players, it's both immoral and will result.in bad karma and.most likely jail time."

Now.that that's out.of.the way, the model suggests.not adhering to wbl? That sounds really.weird, can you give us more details?
Also more details onnthe encounters.that kill.them, please.


There was a thread about criminal players recently, now this.

Yes. Killing players is bad. Unless they voted for [insert political party], of course.




I assumed TPKs every session from the way you were describing it.

Litmus test: count how many times the party was ambushed and how may times did the party successfully ambush someone. Is the first number higher?

If so, until they improve you will:
1) Take away their McGuffin. Dead is dead.
2) Make new characters roll 3d6 in order for stats.
3) Introduce permanent disfiguration on critical hits.
4) Practice to laugh maniacally.
5) Roll dice for no reason and ask what Perception bonuses characters have.
6) Play Trololo song during battles.
7) Have local king tax all loot (80% belongs to crown).

tl;dr: motivate them play the game, not play the play.

If everything is bad, party should get out of Dodge or join BBEG. Don't treat adventure module like a holy scripture party must act through.

The mcguffin is integral to the adventure... it's their whole reason for travelling.
edit: I think I will go with my mercane idea. Give them someone to buy **** off of and even place special orders.

Also, last couple of sessions what got them was a pair of small 4 armed monsters with 5 attacks who snuck up on them on either side of a bridge (pincering them) and proceeded to wail on their squishee party members and a moonflower which ate the cohort.

[Bronk]

I have been killing pcs and cohorts at what to me is an alarming rate. (about once a session for the past 4 sessions.)

Instead of death, they could be captured. Maybe they're going to be interrogated, pressed into servitude, or eaten.


Granted, there's a mcguffin that will ressurect them once a month, but it is still extremely troublesome how often the party has to spend resources to remove the negative levels.

Have the McGuffin bring them back without negative levels. Done!


I am running a pf game adventure module.

I've always found adventure modules to be problematic. You're always going to have to rework it to some degree...


Looking at the module and knowing what their characters have, I think I know what the problem may be... equipment has been very difficult to come by.

They are in the middle of a dungeon delve at the moment

the campaign mentioned that items should be "destined" for the party members.

So, I am thinking I should put a captured mercane in the current dungeon who can sell them some stuff, and even give them a special reward.

Would this be a good addition or should I stick to the treasure in the book (which is actually kinda pitiful)



I am wondering if there would be other alternatives than just throwing them equipment. I am loathe to alter the monsters too much because I do want it to be challenging, but I would prefer not to murder everyone.

It sounds like the adventure is expecting you to add in specialized treasure for your players. I'd suggest placing treasures that match what you think they need... the 'destined' items. They can take care of the caravan with the rest.

The mercane thing sounds fun too, although why is it hanging around in a dungeon in the north pole? Did it crash it's transport, and now needs it fixed and a set of replacement planar sails? Or did someone steal his portal key and he needs it back? (Also, do you remember that there was an item in the old NWN game that summoned a genie store-owner?)


The funny thing is they don't lose to the high cr encounters... it's the fights 2 levels below their level that is killing them. CRs 1-2 higher than them they trounce, but throw 2 cr 6 or a cr 7 at them, and they struggle to stay alive.


Actually, most of them deliberately refuse to optimize, preferring rp heavy builds. But they aren't "bad" characters either.

I'd suggest reminding them of their options during battles. They sound like the type of players that don't pay attention to that sort of thing normally, so their abilities slip their minds when they actually need the info.

You could just say, "Hey, don't you have that one spell that would help?", or "Your character would know this." or whatever. You wouldn't be coddling them, you'd be helping them to role play their characters.

[Calthropstu]

Update:
So they got the boss of this dungeon after a GRUELING 23 round fight. No party members died (though there were nearly 4 tpks in the fight) thanks to some gratuitious channeling from the life oracle. I placed the mercane in a temporal stasis locked in a permanent summoning circle, summoned thousands of years ago by the creators of the tower. My explanation is the tower creator summoned him, but was called away on urgent business mid negotiation. Rather than let him go, the tower creator cast permanency on the circle and stasised him until he could get back to him.
I made a chest with a freedom scroll (and other goodies) to help free the mercane.

[Jack_Simth]

I have been killing pcs and cohorts at what to me is an alarming rate. (about once a session for the past 4 sessions.) Granted, there's a mcguffin that will ressurect them once a month, but it is still extremely troublesome how often the party has to spend resources to remove the negative levels.

The answer to the title question is table-specific, and is another question:
Is everyone having consequence-free fun?
If yes, then you're fine as-is.
If no, then you should change things.



I am running a pf game adventure module. All the numbers say they should be stomping these things, but every game they hit an encounter they just barely pull through. And it's not the ones I expect them to be during prep either.
Looking at the module and knowing what their characters have, I think I know what the problem may be... equipment has been very difficult to come by. They are lvl 8 and they just barely got a couple headbands +2. Their ac is kinda low as well.
You've almost certainly ID'd the cause of death. If you want to cut down on the deaths, add some treasure drops - possibly as additional encounters if you don't want to modify the module itself. Perhaps an evil adventuring party, a bit lower level than the PC's but better equipped, decided to ally themselves with the module's Big Bad. This lets you tailor equipment to individuals without it being too obvious (the evil party made the equipment for themselves.... and you've got a divine caster, an arcane caster, and a meatshield... so do they).

[Jay R]

The traditional way to get cool stuff in the middle of an adventure is top find it on your enemy's bodies, or in their hoard.

That is far more satisfying that having a merchant show up.

[Melcar]

I have been killing pcs and cohorts at what to me is an alarming rate. (about once a session for the past 4 sessions.) Granted, there's a mcguffin that will ressurect them once a month, but it is still extremely troublesome how often the party has to spend resources to remove the negative levels.

I am running a pf game adventure module. All the numbers say they should be stomping these things, but every game they hit an encounter they just barely pull through. And it's not the ones I expect them to be during prep either.
Looking at the module and knowing what their characters have, I think I know what the problem may be... equipment has been very difficult to come by. They are lvl 8 and they just barely got a couple headbands +2. Their ac is kinda low as well.
They are in the middle of a dungeon delve at the moment, and they just rested, but were assaulted in the night by the dungeon leader... a hit and run attack.
Their caravan took some serious damage, one wagon was all but destroyed. They have no avenue of getting serious gear in the near future.

However, the first part of the campaign mentioned that items should be "destined" for the party members. So, I am thinking I should put a captured mercane in the current dungeon who can sell them some stuff, and even give them a special reward.
Would this be a good addition or should I stick to the treasure in the book (which is actually kinda pitiful)


I would say that if its the players who are constantly making poor or foolish decisions then too bad. Someone is going to die... If they prepare well, do what they can, take all the necessary precaution, think tactically (and strategically) and they still die, then it more or less the DM, who needs to adjust the difficulty.

My suggestion would be that you simply just not do: "They have no avenue of getting serious gear in the near future". Just give them a few items. Maybe something that gives more dam for the melee dps and perhaps more ac for the tank. Throw them a bone. If it seems to unbalance things, then remove the items again. Either by night raids or by sundering them.

EDIT: Yeah and let them find the items. Uncover some old corpses or cache of hidden stuff.

[Calthropstu]

I would say that if its the players who are constantly making poor or foolish decisions then too bad. Someone is going to die... If they prepare well, do what they can, take all the necessary precaution, think tactically (and strategically) and they still die, then it more or less the DM, who needs to adjust the difficulty.

My suggestion would be that you simply just not do: "They have no avenue of getting serious gear in the near future". Just give them a few items. Maybe something that gives more dam for the melee dps and perhaps more ac for the tank. Throw them a bone. If it seems to unbalance things, then remove the items again. Either by night raids or by sundering them.

EDIT: Yeah and let them find the items. Uncover some old corpses or cache of hidden stuff.

What tank? The best "tank" they have is the absent druid's bear. Their tank guy was the guy who quit.
Their dps, the magus, literally CANNOT get a better weapon. (He is wielding an item I will call campaign mcguffin artifact 2... which is a sweet katana. They are literally roaming the countryside with no less than 3 artifacts, and it could soon be a fourth.)
They DID just pick up a headband of mental superiority which is kinda cool, and I am rewarding them next session with the rescue of the mercane.
I am working on special custom items geared towards each character and will be strewing it around.

[Melcar]

What tank? The best "tank" they have is the absent druid's bear. Their tank guy was the guy who quit.
Their dps, the magus, literally CANNOT get a better weapon. (He is wielding an item I will call campaign mcguffin artifact 2... which is a sweet katana. They are literally roaming the countryside with no less than 3 artifacts, and it could soon be a fourth.)
They DID just pick up a headband of mental superiority which is kinda cool, and I am rewarding them next session with the rescue of the mercane.
I am working on special custom items geared towards each character and will be strewing it around.

When I say tank or melee dps, its just a metaphor for who ever is doing that role. If none are, fair play, the comment is misplaced. My point still stands however. If they are dying that much you might just want to give them higher level equipment... Should be a fairly easy fix. Or remove some enemies, if they already have high level equipment!

Btw, can we have a write-up of these artifacts?

[Calthropstu]

When I say tank or melee dps, its just a metaphor for who ever is doing that role. If none are, fair play, the comment is misplaced. My point still stands however. If they are dying that much you might just want to give them higher level equipment... Should be a fairly easy fix. Or remove some enemies, if they already have high level equipment!

Btw, can we have a write-up of these artifacts?

If I mention what the artifacts are, then I will have to put the entire thread in spoilers. So, be forewarned with the spoiler tag below...

I am running the jade regent adventure path. The artifacts are: A seal that identifies people as legitimate heirs to the throne of Minkai (specifically the Amatatsu line), a box that protects itself and anything inside it from any form of divination magic, and a sword that is wielded by the amatatsu line.
It is the seal that resurrects the party.

[Melcar]

If I mention what the artifacts are, then I will have to put the entire thread in spoilers. So, be forewarned with the spoiler tag below...

I am running the jade regent adventure path. The artifacts are: A seal that identifies people as legitimate heirs to the throne of Minkai (specifically the Amatatsu line), a box that protects itself and anything inside it from any form of divination magic, and a sword that is wielded by the amatatsu line.
It is the seal that resurrects the party.

Ok... that a pretty cool item, but what about something that really matters, like a +5, keen, vorpal, holy power, adamantine long sword of doom and glory, that casts mass healing on the party every round?? :smallwink:

I know that's crazy to suggest, but exaggeration promotes understanding, and what I'm trying to say i that I think your peeps needs some substantial help.

Bear in mind, that if your players are having a blast constantly having to battle that hard, and find that sort of challenge cool, then don't change a thing. Are they leaving the game because dying and feeling they have no chance, then I would suggest either giving them some proper items or simply removes the number of enemies.

Again I always go for the option which promotes the most fun. Whether that be fighting hordes of ancient wyrm prismatic demi-draco liches, armies of deities or simply clearing out a wine cellar of a single dire rat.

Its difficult to come up with a solution for you. Personally I would not keep on killing them as you seem to have done. I think after the first tpk, I would start adjusting the encounters... so to at least ensure a 80% success chance for my players. They way I read your post, it seems lover. As I said in my first post, if the players are being careless, stupid, or reckless then to hell with them. Then its their own fault. (I once had a cocky sorcerer who thought he could act tank. He rushed into the final boss chamber, because he wanted to blast that BBEG, before anyone else could get a hit in. Needless to say he died, before ever getting a spell off.) But when my players take their time to analyses the mission, stock up on the right tools and equipment (which I suggest you let them), and really prepare to the fullest of their abilities, I reward that effort. Sometimes by botching rolls to keep them alive. I want them to feel that the preparations pays off.

Its really just about having fun. Just do your best to ensure everyone is having a gay ol' time! :smallsmile:

PS: I hope I don't come across condescending, because that's not what I wanted to do :smallredface:

[Lazymancer]

I think after the first tpk, I would start adjusting the encounters...
There hasn't been a single TPK.

OP is alarmed that every session (4 so far) one PC or cohort dies (and then gets resurrected). I think he should man up (or GM up - or whatever politically correct euphemism for "stop being such a wimp" is), stop being bothered by this, and put the fear of dice into players. Everyone should accept that "No Survivors" is not a problem, but a perfectly legitimate outcome of the game.

Problem is when people don't have fun.

[Melcar]

There hasn't been a single TPK.

OP is alarmed that every session (4 so far) one PC or cohort dies (and then gets resurrected). I think he should man up (or GM up - or whatever politically correct euphemism for "stop being such a wimp" is), stop being bothered by this, and put the fear of dice into players. Everyone should accept that "No Survivors" is not a problem, but a perfectly legitimate outcome of the game.

Problem is when people don't have fun.

Indeed that is also what I pointed out. Fun is all that matters. I just tried also to describe how I would go about things. Even though i remembered incorrectly about the tpk.

[Deadline]

Yes, WBL (in useful items, not coinage or non-useful items) is expected to keep players relevant vs. appropriate CR encounters.

Yes, lack of enough WBL makes encounters way harder, even for spellcasting classes (who are less dependent on wealth).

As to the question of is it bad to kill pcs and cohorts, that is a question in two parts:


Is random, pointless death appropriate to the style of campaign you are running?
Are your players having fun with the style of campaign you are running?


If the answer to either of those two are no, then it's bad. Otherwise, you're good. I myself regularly play in games where death generally only happens where "dramatically appropriate". You'd think that would encourage stupidly reckless behavior, but it doesn't. The campaign is crafted from character backstory, and the players are super invested. It works great. I also occasionally enjoy a classic, grognard-style campaign where life is cheap, you keep a stack of backup character sheets, and you might even see a character survive to become a great hero. Very different styles, and I know folks who only enjoy one or the other.

I think your trapped Mercane solution will work out well to cover the WBL gap. Let us know if that helps matters any. If not, posting up pc builds and tactics will enable us to make suggestions you can offer to your players.

[Coidzor]

Depending upon level, it can be an indicator that there is a disconnect between the power of the party versus the lethality of the encounters you're using.

At pre-Epic levels, you'll probably lose at least one person per fight if the enemy gets a chance to act, but it's trivial to get them back quickly.

[Jay R]

Are they actually over-powered, or are they playing poorly? Lack of items can be fixed; not all problems can.

[Calthropstu]

Are they actually over-powered, or are they playing poorly? Lack of items can be fixed; not all problems can.

Tactically speaking they do ok. Some deaths are simply bad luck. Some are me taking advantage of monster abilities (paralyze + coup de grace was one death for example)
The AP is also fairly brutal with area effects (one death was a pair of frost drakes... which instagibbed a cohort with 2 frost blasts)
Another character death was a creature who led one of the pc's out on his own... with 23 failed saves in a row... and murdered him.
Then there was the plant monster who swallowed the cohort.
There was also a group of 6 frost wights the characters didn't notice. The guy with air walk carried the cohort across a gap, went back to get the next person and...

[Quertus]

There was also a group of 6 frost wights the characters didn't notice. The guy with air walk carried the cohort across a gap, went back to get the next person and...

Now that is an appropriately horrible / hilarious death to be worthy of the archives!

[Jay R]

Tactically speaking they do ok. Some deaths are simply bad luck. Some are me taking advantage of monster abilities (paralyze + coup de grace was one death for example)
The AP is also fairly brutal with area effects (one death was a pair of frost drakes... which instagibbed a cohort with 2 frost blasts)
Another character death was a creature who led one of the pc's out on his own... with 23 failed saves in a row... and murdered him.
Then there was the plant monster who swallowed the cohort.
There was also a group of 6 frost wights the characters didn't notice. The guy with air walk carried the cohort across a gap, went back to get the next person and...

In that case, the problem is that your monsters are over-powered for the group. One solution is to give the group more items, but that's only treating the symptoms. The crucial realization is this:

The writer of the module did not know your players, and you do. So you need to adjust the module's monsters to fit your group.

Using an adventure module does not substitute for making judgment calls.

[Calthropstu]

In that case, the problem is that your monsters are over-powered for the group. One solution is to give the group more items, but that's only treating the symptoms. The crucial realization is this:

The writer of the module did not know your players, and you do. So you need to adjust the module's monsters to fit your group.

Using an adventure module does not substitute for making judgment calls.

I don't think that is the case. Maybe the drakes, but otherwise most monsters are easily wiped out. The cohort problem is she has **** for hp. I made the magus dex based, but her ac sucks balls regardless. It is quite difficult to make good cohorts with the elite array from the core rulebook.
And she keeps being thrown in the front lines. So when I randomly pick targets and she is hit...

[Jay R]

I don't think that is the case. Maybe the drakes, but otherwise most monsters are easily wiped out. The cohort problem is she has **** for hp. I made the magus dex based, but her ac sucks balls regardless. It is quite difficult to make good cohorts with the elite array from the core rulebook.
And she keeps being thrown in the front lines. So when I randomly pick targets and she is hit...

If the players are throwing the cohort in the front lines, then they are making poor tactical decisions. I started this sub-thread by asking about that.

In any event, the observed fact is that these monsters are over-powering these PCs. You need to fix that, either by improving the PCs or (much more easily) by reducing the monsters.

However you do it, you need to match the encounters to the party's actual ability to beat threats.

[Florian]

@Calthropstu:

Both, Jade Regent and Giantslayer are prime examples for knowing how WBL actually works and how you´ve got to use it during an AP that makes regular "shopping" stop roughly every 2nd module.

You´re aware that some items, especially the heritage weapons are coupled to the storyline, therefore you shouldn't´t factor them into WBL at all, same as with some of the artifacts you pick up along the same storyline.

During the "in-between" sections, you´ve got to overstock the loot for regular encounters with useful consumables to keep the underlying math going. A Wand of Bull´s Strength can replace a +4 STR belt for a while, as long as it´s sure that your players accept that they have to burn thru that stuff during this sections of the AP, w/o taking a "hit" to their WBL when it´s a gain time to shop.

[Sam K]

Tactically speaking they do ok. Some deaths are simply bad luck. Some are me taking advantage of monster abilities (paralyze + coup de grace was one death for example)
The AP is also fairly brutal with area effects (one death was a pair of frost drakes... which instagibbed a cohort with 2 frost blasts)
Another character death was a creature who led one of the pc's out on his own... with 23 failed saves in a row... and murdered him.
Then there was the plant monster who swallowed the cohort.
There was also a group of 6 frost wights the characters didn't notice. The guy with air walk carried the cohort across a gap, went back to get the next person and...

Well, lets be honest: if you're playing hardball (using things like paralyse+CDG), you WILL have PC deaths. If you're using tactics like ambush+focus fire, you WILL have PC deaths. If you're throwing your bodyweight in dice at the characters, you WILL have deaths.

All of these things are pretty natural in D&D. PCs use them all the time, after all. The only way to avoid it is if the PCs are highly optimised, well organised magical commandos that scry on their enemies, then ambush them and take the majority of them out in the surprise round. If you add in non-optimised characters and low access to equipment, you can expect your PCs to be dropping. PC deaths are part of D&D, that's why it's so easy to get them back (revolving door afterlife and all that).

[denthor]

Looking at my 9th level wizard

Magic gear

+2 headband of intelligence
+2 scimitar keen I have drawn it six times maybe

Wands

Bull str 3 charges third level 3 minutes of extra str
Mage armor 25 charges 1st level 1 hour

Luckstone with spells travel domain and a free once a day reroll. I state who gets to use it. 20,000 gp item



That is all for

I make mistakes but survive. Wealth by levels can someone tell if I am in line?

[Arbane]

What everyone else said. If you give Pcs extra loot after encounters (like, 1 useful item for 1 player each time), Paizo is not going to send goons around to break your kneecaps.

Actually, most of them deliberately refuse to optimize, preferring rp heavy builds.

"Wanting to survive, and adapting the circumstances accordingly" is generally considered good roleplaying.

[Calthropstu]

What everyone else said. If you give Pcs extra loot after encounters (like, 1 useful item for 1 player each time), Paizo is not going to send goons around to break your kneecaps.


"Wanting to survive, and adapting the circumstances accordingly" is generally considered good roleplaying.

I am now going to add paizo goons into my game. They will specialize in called shot, knee attacks.