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Anthrowhale
2017-06-04, 09:14 AM
In this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?522562-Retiering-the-Classes-Evangelist-Favored-Soul-Healer-Mystic-Spont-Cleric) there was an open question: How powerful is an optimized Warmage 20 compared to an optimized Favored Soul 20? For the purpose of this exercise I'm assuming no optional rules and no prestige classes with wealth by level limits obeyed. Otherwise anything legal goes including Dragon Magazine. My opinion of the Favored Soul and the Warmage both went up significantly after thinking about this carefully.

The Warmage seems significantly superior to some of the other tier 3s such as Warblade, Crusader, and Sword Sage by making heavy use of off-list spell access via the Drake Helm, even when taking into account wealth by level. The optimized Warmage (Captain Nova) is generally not threatened by CR-appropriate monsters although there are very specific ones or tier 1 casters which might challenge it. Without a Drake Helm (or Knowstones) they seem more appropriate for Tier 3 as Arcane Disciple and Eclectic Learning effectively provide Bard-level spell power.

A Warmage could lose most of their spells known without appreciably affecting what they can do, so the primary method of optimization is via off-list access.

There are 5 approaches to off-list access:

Runestaves from Magic Item Compendium. These categorically do not work: the explanation off page 224 says that they only allow casting of spells on list which is useless for a warmage.
Arcane Disciple from Complete Divine. This does work, but it's much more limited than some people seem to believe. You must choose a deity, adopt the alignment of the chosen deity, and you can only use repeatedly for domains of that deity. Unfortunately, Customize Domain from the Dragon #325 does not apply so the spells on the domain list are also not particularly easy to choose.
Knowstones from Dragon 333. Knowstones are great for giving spell access but they are explicitly discussed as an optional rule. The use of optional rules does not seem in scope for tiering discussions as there are many of them and they get pretty odd.
Drake Helm from Explorer's Handbook (Eberron). This explicitly adds spells to the spell list and spells known and does not limit the spell to any list---a Wyrm Wizard could allow access to any spell. It's expensive but within a factor of 2 of Knowstones.
Advanced/Eclectic Learning class feature. Advanced Learning (access to S/W evocation spells) is nearly useless, but Eclectic Learning (access to any S/W spell at one extra spell level) is reasonably useful.

The Drake Helm is the clear winner amongst these approaches. It's reasonable to object based on it being setting specific, but so is Arcane Disciple via the choice of deities. Anyways, I'm allowing it here and the restriction of 'no setting specific material' would drastically reduce high end optimization for a Warmage.

Using the Drake Helm, Arcane Disciple, and Eclectic Learning requires cherry picking about two dozen spells which in combination with the right feats make the Warmage much more powerful. That's possible, although it's a pretty tricky optimization. Maybe there is something better?

We're going to use a combination of feats and spells which synergize.


1 Heighten Spell. Ability to cast a second level spell.
Human: Versatile Spellcaster. Access to second level spells known at first level.
3 Twin Spell. Doubles the effects of all spells and useful for action manipulation.
6 Easy[Twin]. Twin spell costs 1 less.
(Warmage 7) Sudden Empower
9 Arcane Mastery. Makes Otiluke's Suppressing Field into AMF-light.
(Warmage 10) Sudden Enlarge
12 Arcane Disciple[Animal Domain]. Shapechange and Antilife shell are standouts. The deity must be evil, like Malar.
15 Extend Spell. A useful prerequisite.
(Warmage 15) Sudden Widen
18 Persistent Spell. Great spells work all day rather than rounds.
(Warmage 20) Sudden Maximize


First we break the action economy.


Arcane Fusion. A level 5 spell that casts a level 4 and Level 1 spell form the Sorcerer list.
Favor of the Martyr. Immunity to Daze, Stun, Charm, Compulsion, Nonlethal, Pain, Exhausted, Fatigued, Nauseated, Sickened, or Staggered for minute/level
Celerity. Trades an immediate action for a standard action+daze.
Arcane Spellsurge. Standard action spells become swift action and full round spells become standard action. We'll Persist this for all-day benefit.


Twin Celerity is a standard action spell that generates two standard actions + daze. If the first action is used to cast Favor of the Martyr the daze is negated and we can nova through all L4+ spells as needed to resolve encounters. Also, we can cast Arcane Fusion [Twin <any L4- spell>, Twin <any L1- spell] as an immediate action via Shapechange[Tome Dragon] for Free Metamagic (-3 levels) + Easy Metamagic[-1 level] making the Warmage into something of a swift action Mailman.

Next we have some attack buffing spells (all via the Drake Helm).


Darkfire This does 5d6 fire on a melee or 120' ranged attack. Via Persistent Extend spell it works for two days. Via Sudden Mazimize and Sudden Empower it does an expected 38 damage/hit on a touch attack. Via a Lesser Rod of Energy Substitution[Acid] we can maintain an acid hand and a fire hand.
Mantle of the Icy Soul You have a [cold] descriptor which is a prerequisite for Algid Enhancement
Algid Enhancement Leveragable for a +14 enhancement bonus to all attacks and a +14 deflection bonus.
Divine Power Base Attack +10, Str+6(enhance)


Altogether, these spells provide a nearly unavoidable all-day baseline damage of 155 fire or acid per round at a 120' range spread over 4 attacks that are very likely to hit against most opponents.

More general buffing spells must be chosen carefully given wealth-by-level constraints, but several seem worthwhile with a Drake Helm.


Nixie's Grace Dex+6(enhance), Chr+8(Enhance). This helps with targeting and saves money on items. Persist for all-day goodness.
Mass Lesser Vigor Fast Heal 1 for you and lucky allies persisted all day.
Barkskin Natural Armor+5(Enhance)
Magic Vestment Armor+5(Enhance), Shield+5(enhance). Yes, we will win the armor class war.
Greater Magic Weapon With a +1 defending weapon gives AC+5
Consumptive Field CL+50%, Strength+lots, DC 24.
Suppressing Field Antimagic Field-light for one school at a time.
Ruin Delver's Fortune Saves+charisma(Luck), Evasion, Immune Poison
Friendly Fire Immune to ranged attacks
Owl's Insight Wis+20(insight) for 1 hour, so Arcane Disciple does not create MAD.
Resist Energy Resist 30 to energy
Snowsight See through Snow
Obscuring Snow 30' radius no one sees but you


These are all long lasting or made long lasting via Persistent Spell Spell which acts as +3 metamagic using the -3 discount from Shapechange[Old Tome Dragon]. In the case of Arcane Spellsurge, remember that Versatile Spellcaster allows casting a +3 metamagic on a 7th level spell. These spells cost most of wealth-by-level: 554K gp.

Eclectic Learning Spells provide cheaper access for the 4 spells chosen. Note that eclectic spell can be one level higher than normal via Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell.


Warmage 3: Nerveskitter provides an initiative bonus of +5.
Warmage 6: Heroics as a level 3 spell provides perhaps 7 fighter bonus feats all day.
Warmage 11: Draconic Polymorph[War Troll] after Shapechange[Old Tome Dragon] provides an exceptional Gish form.
Warmage 16: Greater Plane Shift. Strategic transport a solved problem


A few items round out the character.

Hathran Mask of True Seeing. Illusions Lose
Mithril Dastana+1+Soulfire Immune death spells&effect, negative energy, energy drain
Belt of Battle Init+2(competence)+ actions
Mithril Chain Shirt
Mithril Shield
chosen weapons
Armor Spikes+1+Warning Init+5(Insight)
Shield Spikes+1+defending AC+5
Sandals of the Vagabond Init+2(luck)
Cloak of Resistance Saves+5
Rod, Lesser Substitution[Acid] Few things are immune to Acid and Fire.
Drake Helm, 4 sockets Cast off-list spells

Putting everything together, you have an epic scale monster.


True Seeing + Snowsight + Darkvision 60'.
AC 71 (Dex+6, Armor+10, Shield+7, Natural Armor+19, Defending+5, Deflect+14)
Total Concealment [Obscuring Snow]
Fort 31 (Warmage+6, Con+10, Resist+5, Luck+10)
Refl 27 (Warmage+6, Dex+6, Resist+5, Luck+10) + Evasion
Will 27 (Warmage+12, Resist+5, Luck+10) + Immune Mind-affecting
Initiative +24 (Imp. init+4, Dex+6, Competence+2, Insight+5, Luck+2, Nerveskitter+5)
Ranged Touch attack+40 (base attack+20, Dex+6, Enhance+14) for 30+5d6/2 Fire or Acid
Melee attacks+71 (base attack+20, Str+37, Enhance+14) for by-weapon damage
Caster level 40 (20 base +20 Consumptive Field)
Strength 85 (39 Draconic Polymorph[War Troll], Consumptive Field+40, Enhance+6)
Dexterity 22 (16 Draconic Polymorph[War Troll], Enhance+6)
Constitution 31 (Draconic Polymorph[War Troll])
Intelligence 14
Wisdom 10 (8 base, enhance+2) rising to 30 when casting Owl's Insight.
Charisma 31 (18 base, Enhance+8, Level+5)
Immunity to death spells&effects, negative energy, energy drain, Ranged attacks, Poison. +FoTM for 40 minutes/casting.
Resist all elements 30, Spells & SLAs of all schools via Otilukes Suppressive Field at Caster level 39.


You can cast as many spells as you have slots as a swift action (Arcane Fusion[Twin Celerity] under Arcane Spellsurge) and have the repertoire of a Mailman build. You can do all-day damage like a Warlock except generally more/better. You can also function as a fighter who happens to have a strength of 85(!) and can choose a half-dozen feats freely each day. You are immune to ranged attack and an Antilife Shell preventing many melee attacks. Those which survive must deal with AC:No. You lack tactical (low spot) and strategic (no scry) information gathering and can be damaged by supernatural abilities (i.e. dragonbreath) but have high saves and evasion to compensate. Most of these abilities come online late (level 16+) as all-day abilities, but many can be enjoyed on a short-term basis earlier. At all levels, you have access to one higher level of spells known due to the mechanics of Warmage + Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell.

The Favored Soul can't leverage off-list access, but they do get an enormous number of spells known from the Cleric list. I generally haven't regarded spontaneous casters as particularly good at self-buffing, but the Favored Soul is an exception---they have spells known at a level similar to the number of spell slots at a level and can succeed more easily than prepared casters via Practical Metamagic[Persistent Spell] and Versatile Spellcaster. Leveraging this maximally results in a character that is not challenged by any CR appropriate encounter and generally capable of taking on the entire epic level handbook with the sole exception of other optimized tier-1 casters. Many of the level 20 abilities can come online much earlier as well.

I'm imagining this build as a Lawful Evil Silverbrow human Favored Soul of Mystra that fights in the Blood War daily---it's hard to imagine anything else which is really appropriate or challenging. Two notes are important: Mystra honors the LN alignment of her predecessor implying LE worshipers are allowed and Favored Souls have full access Initiate feats according to Dragon Magic.

The set of feats for LHoM are fairly straightforward.


Human: Extend Spell
1 Versatile Spellcaster
3 Mother Cyst
Bonus Cerebrosis
Bonus Iron Will
6 Persistent Spell
9 Initiate of Mystra
12 Easy Metamagic[Persistent Spell]
15 Practical Metamagic[Persistent Spell]
18 Ocular Spell


The spells known list is very long. Most of this is buffs, but with enough other spells for quite a bit of versatility.

We take advantage of several effects for moderate increases in spells known. A Domain Staff (Complete Champion) provides extra spells known for the day (no off-list access though!). We have two and alternate which one is attuned each day. Cerebrosis and Mother Cyst both add to spells known. We use the spells known swap mechanic from (one spell 2 levels lower than the maximum every two FS levels) to switch from weirdo useless spells to chosen spells.

In the below, I use 'E' to indicate Extend, 'P' to indicate Persistent, and 'O' to indicate Ocular. Every Extend or Persistent spell is active for the working day (8 hours) or longer.


Read Magic
PE Detect Magic
No Light Darkness in 20' radius
Summon Holy Symbol Never without focus

+ others



Ice Slick 20' square fall, balance check for half move
Omen of Peril 90% chance determine Safety, Peril, or Great Danger in next hour
Heartache Helpless 1 round will neg.
E Eyes of Avoral Spot+8(racial)
OPE Sanctuary Can't be attacked Will DC 34 Neg
E Conviction Saves+5(morale) for day
E Ebon Eyes See in Normal and Magical Darkness (Swapped for Aching Dread)
(Mysticism Domain) PE Divine Favor Attack/Damage+3(Luck)




PE Find Traps Search+10(Insight) for finding traps
E Divine Insight Any Skill+15(insight)
Guidance of the Avatar Any Skill+20(Competence) in next minute
E Benediction Saves+2(Luck), reroll a save to end for day
E Sense Weakness: Autoconfirm critical threat once
PE Cloud of Knives Free attack@caster level 1d6+5
OPE Brambles Attack+1(enhance), Damage+10(enhance) (Swapped for Call Ameobic Crawler )
Necrotic Cyst Encyst Fort Neg
Necrotic Scrying Scry Encysted




O Shivering Touch 3d6 dex damage
PE Darkfire 120' range 5d6 fire
PE Mass Lesser Vigor
(War Domain Staff) E Magic Vestment Armor & Shield +5(enhance)
PE Vision of the Omniscient Eye Spot+10(insight), Immune Blind, dazzle
E Girallon's Blessing 2 extra arms
E Tongues: Speak any language
Deeper Darkness 60' radius shadowy light for day/level (Swapped for Dimension Rift)
OPE Shield of Warding AC/Refl+5(Sacred) (Swapped for Far Realm Visitation)
Necrotic Bloat Encysted takes 10d6 damage half vile




Wall of Sand Weak Suffocate
E Freedom of Movement Unimpeded for day
PE Lesser Holy Transformation Str/Con+2(Sacred), Fly 60'(good), Darkvision, Outsider(good)
PE Recitation AC/Saves+3(Luck)
Divination 90% good advice
Mark of the Enlightened Soul: spell damage+50% vs evil, all spells good
OPE Delay Death No death from hp damage. (Swapped for Call Cranial Encyster)
(War Domain Staff) PE Divine Power BAB=character level, Str+6(Enhance), 20 temp hp
PE Consumptive Field Caster level +1/death Will DC 37 Neg (Swapped for Lingering Raver)
Necrotic Domination Dominate Person on Encysted Will Neg




Wall of Stone shape battlefield, Refl or trap
True Seeing No illusions
Surge of Fortune Natural 20 as immediate action in next caster level rounds
Boreal Wind 15d4 Cold in a line to long range Fort neg for round/level
Streamers 4x5d10 damage on any action for round/level
Greater Stone Shape 10 ft^3/level
(Mysticism Domain Staff) PE Righteous Might Str+8(size),Con+4(size),NA+4(enhance), DR15/good
Extract Gift Chr/Dex/Con+6(enhance) (Swapped for Soul-Blasting Dread)
Necrotic Burst Encysted die Fort 15d6 half vile




Heal Combat Healing
PE Eyes of the oracle: AC/Saves+2(insight)+ready action
E Mantle of the Icy Soul Gain cold type
E Algid Enhancement level/3 attack (enhance), temp hp, AC(Deflect)
E Antilife Shell Life can't approach.
E Superior Resistance Party Resist+6
E Energy Immunity (Swapped for Call Kaortic Hulk)
Necrotic Eruption Encysted (Die + 20' radius 15d6 half vile Relf half + Necrotic Cyst to damaged) Fort 15d6 half vile




Greater Plane Shift Planar teleport
Holy Word Nongood die in 40' radius
Scrying, Greater Scry the world.
E Planar Bubble Crazy uses
Blasphemy Nonevil die in 40' radius
Consumptive Field, Greater Caster level -> Infinity
Finger of Expulsion Kill 1 or 2 creatures Will Neg
Necrotic Tumor Control forever (no resistance) Fort Suggestion in day/level




Spread of Contentment no save shift creatures to Indifferent or better in 500' radius spread for hour/level
E Visions of the Future Saves+2(Sacred), AC+2(Dodge), Discharge for Saves/AC+25 for 1 turn
E Antimagic Field I have magic. You do not.
E Veil of Undeath Undead Immunities
Earthquake Many effects
Call Nightseed Summon 2 Nightseeds for round/level
Necrotic Empowerment Round/level Dex/Int/Wis+8(enhance), NA+8, Fort+5(Competence), 100 temp hp




Miracle Omnispell
Gate 50HD monsters solve many problems
Erupt Apocalpyse now
Summon Monster IX Large variety of possible summons
Welcome the Ameobic Sea 20' radius 20d6 damage Fort 5d6 + Panic 1 minute Fort Panic 1 round
Necrotic Termination Encysted die beyond True Resurrection Fort 25d6 half vile



Magical items are entirely used during the daily buffing routine only for AMF compatibility.


2x Rod, Lesser Extend
3x Rod, Extend
Otyugh Hole
Rod, Lesser Maximize
Ankh of Ascension
Rod, Greater Subst(Acid)
10x Wishes
Cerebrosis
Extract Gift, Dex+6(enhance), Con+6(enhance), Cha+6(enhance)
Weakening arm graft
Strong Leg graft
Fast Leg graft
Long Arm graft
Clawed Arm graft
Antena Graft
Mysticism Domain Staff
War Domain Staff
Strand of Prayer Beads(Karma)
Orange Ioun Stone
Robe, Arcane Might
Mithril Dastana
Mithril Chain Shirt
Mithril Shield
Long Range Elvencraft Serrenwood composite longbow
other weapons


Putting this together, LHoM is only vulnerable to very specific attack forms.


LE Medium Outsider [good, cold]
Darkvision 60' + see in magical darkness (True Seeing at will) + Spot 22 (much higher with Owl's Insight+29, Divine Inspiration+15, Benediction+20)
AC 69 (Dex+5, Armor+10, Shield+7, Deflect+21, Sacred+5, Natural Armor+4, Luck+3, Insight+2, Dodge+2)
Fort 38 (FS+12, Con+8, Resist+6, Luck+5, Morale+5, Sacred+2) + Immune unless harmless or affects objects
Refl 40 (FS+12, Dex+5, Resist+6, Luck+5, Morale+5, Sacred+5, Insight+2)
Will 36 (FS+12, Wis+4, Resist+6, Luck+5, Morale+5, Sacred+2, Iron Will+2) + Immune Mind-affecting
Initiative +5
Ranged Touch attack+49 (base attack+20, Dex+5, Enhance+21, Luck+3) for 30 Fire (45 vs evil) or 5d6 Acid (x1.5 vs evil)
Melee attacks+115 (base attack+20, Str+71, Enhance+21, Luck+3) for by-weapon damage
Caster level 50/60(buffs) (20 base +29 Consumptive Field+4 Prayer Bead:Karma+4 Ankh of Ascension+1 Orange Ioun Stone+1 Robe of Arcane Might)
Strength 156 (12+120 Consumptive Field+6 Enhance+4 Clawed Arm+8 Size+2 Sacred)
Dexterity 22 (13+1 Inherent+6 Enhance)
Constitution 26 (13+2 Inherent-1 Cerebrosis+6 Enhance+4 Size+2 Sacred)
Intelligence 10
Wisdom 18 (14 +4 Inherent) (+Owl's Insight)
Charisma 32 (16 base, Enhance+6, Level+5, inherent+5)
Immunity to Mind-Affecting, Paralysis, Stunning, Death, Suffocation, Poison, Sleep, Critical Hits, Non-lethal, Starvation, Massive Damage, Fort unless harmless or affects objects, Energy Drain, Ability Drain, Fatigue, Exhaustion, Physical Ability Damage, Cold, Fire, Acid, Electricity, Sonic, Death by Damage, Encumbering Magic, Grapple, Dazzle, Blindness, Spells, SLAs, and Su via Antimagic Field.


The LHoM generally comes online fairly early and has a large number of no-save-just-die tricks.


L1. Heartache followed by Coup de Grace is a standard action will save or die.
L4. A +30 bonus to any skill check is possible
L6. Necrotic Domination gives access to Dominate Person 3-4 ECL early via Mother Cyst + Versatile Spellcaster
L8. Wall of Sand. This kills weak foes in confined spaces with no save.
L8. Maximized Shivering Touch is a melee touch attack that kills
L10. AMF+Magic available via a Magic Domain Staff + Initiate of Mystra + Versatile Spellcaster
L12. Greater Dominate Monster via Necrotic Tumor.
L14. Persistent Maximized Darkfire
L15. Persistent Consumptive Field
L15. Holy Word & Blasphemy autokill nongood and nonevil.
L16. Spread of Contentment is a [mind-affecting] hours/level spread with no save shifting Hostile to Indifferent.
L18. Miracle[Owl's Insight] creates very high DC Consumptive Field / Sanctuary.
L18. Erupt goes Nuclear.
L18. Persistent Delay Death



Altogether, I find domain access (e.g. Evangelist, Arcane Disciple) and the raw number of spells less meaningful than I had previously so Favored Soul > Evangelist, Mystic. A Cleric or Spontaneous Cleric still has an edge in early access to Persistent Spell via DMM[Persist]. A Healer seems significantly weaker than a Warmage and should not be in the same tier. A Warmage without a Drake Helm is probably similar to a Healer with Sanctified Spells.

Cosi
2017-06-04, 09:37 AM
For the purpose of this exercise I'm assuming no optional rules and no prestige classes but otherwise anything legal goes including Dragon Magazine.

Excluding PrCs is giving an unfair advantage to the Favored Soul because it means the Warmage can't use e.g. Rainbow Servant to take advantage of one of his best class features (knowing all the spells on his list). It's like comparing Artificer v Dread Necromancer but banning items.

Also, you forgot the path to real ultimate power for Sorcerers and Favored Souls: getting no-XP psychic reformation somehow. That lets you reshuffle your spells on the fly, which negates the primary drawback of the class.

Ultimately, you end up with a Warmage that can cast all Cleric spells whenever he wants because of Rainbow Servant and a Favored Soul that can cast all Cleric spells whenever he wants because of psychic reformation. The Warmage has slightly more known spells because of domains and the Warmage list and because he has all Cleric spells all the time, and saves whatever money (or other resources) the Favored Soul spent on getting psychic reformation. The Favoured Soul has an additional ten levels to spend on PrCs that aren't Rainbow Servant.

Overall, the Warmage is probably slightly better, unless there's some especially compelling PrC the Favored Soul would like to take.

GilesTheCleric
2017-06-04, 10:44 AM
What do you think about Word of Genesis for one of your level 9 spells? You already have the two +skill spells. Elder Glyph of Warding is amazing, too, but does require feat investment to make it shine.

druid zook
2017-06-04, 11:27 AM
Also, you forgot the path to real ultimate power for Sorcerers and Favored Souls: getting no-XP psychic reformation somehow. That lets you reshuffle your spells on the fly, which negates the primary drawback of the class.

Would you please explain how a spell caster can learn psychic reformation (a psionic power), and how it would cost no XP? It sounds awesome, but I don't see how it can be done. Thanks.

Cosi
2017-06-04, 12:44 PM
Would you please explain how a spell caster can learn psychic reformation (a psionic power), and how it would cost no XP? It sounds awesome, but I don't see how it can be done. Thanks.

I don't mean as a spell known. Use limited wish to emulate psychic reformation (with Supernatural Spell to negate the XP cost), or get a custom item of psychic reformation.

Anthrowhale
2017-06-04, 12:52 PM
Excluding PrCs is giving an unfair advantage to the Favored Soul because it means the Warmage can't use e.g. Rainbow Servant to take advantage of one of his best class features (knowing all the spells on his list). It's like comparing Artificer v Dread Necromancer but banning items.

That was the constraint of eggynack's thread.

There are a few other issues with this statement as well. Rainbow Servant is somewhat disputed given text/table disagreement. Yes, I know text is supposed to win but my understanding is that various translations add level loss to the text. It's nice to consider builds that work in all translations. The other issue is that prestige classes can up-amp the Favored Soul dramatically---you get DMM[Persist], the Animal domain (for Shapechange), and domain slots (for greater anyspell) make a shocking difference to power level.



Also, you forgot the path to real ultimate power for Sorcerers and Favored Souls: getting no-XP psychic reformation somehow. That lets you reshuffle your spells on the fly, which negates the primary drawback of the class.


On one hand, I philosophically disagree with subverting wealth by level when optimizing. I was careful to keep everything within wealth by level here and generally consider shortcut trillion XP wishes (as Beheld prefers) to be ignoring something which is a reasonable constraint. On the other hand... you don't actually need it to be free if you have your own pet timeless[magic] demiplane which is certainly within WBL. So, no actual extra power here.



Overall, the Warmage is probably slightly better, unless there's some especially compelling PrC the Favored Soul would like to take.

I'm skeptical about this, but if you want to present builds allowing PrC's go ahead. My primary reservation is that I think the Warmage is coming online late, you haven't fully resolved feat choices, and I don't think you've fully understood the power of Initiate of Mystra which starts coming online here at level 10 and for a Favored Soul with prestige classes as early as level 4. W.r.t. IoM, this build has not used but has allowed for the use of Static Dead Magic Timeless[magic] demiplanes which you really need an IoM to take advantage of as per the Planar Soldiers of Mystra (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?499269-Planar-Soldiers-of-Mystra).


What do you think about Word of Genesis for one of your level 9 spells? You already have the two +skill spells. Elder Glyph of Warding is amazing, too, but does require feat investment to make it shine.

I know what you mean. SM IX does not fit next to Miracle, Erupt, and Gate. Word of Genesis has an XP cost, prevents manipulation of the time trait (we want Timeless[Magic] of course), and I can really only imagine using it once. Using a scroll of Genesis instead seems better. Elder Glyph of warding also has an expensive material component which I was generally trying to avoid---I think people underestimate the accumulated cost of using expensive material components regularly. Do you have another good L9 candidate?

GilesTheCleric
2017-06-04, 01:05 PM
I know what you mean. SM IX does not fit next to Miracle, Erupt, and Gate. Word of Genesis has an XP cost, prevents manipulation of the time trait (we want Timeless[Magic] of course), and I can really only imagine using it once. Using a scroll of Genesis instead seems better. Elder Glyph of warding also has an expensive material component which I was generally trying to avoid---I think people underestimate the accumulated cost of using expensive material components regularly. Do you have another good L9 candidate?

Those are good points. There's not a huge selection of 9ths. Other than Elder Glyph of Warding, I would suggest Planar Pocket (Drag304 44), assuming you're not using Acorn of Far Travel instead.

Cosi
2017-06-04, 01:39 PM
That was the constraint of eggynack's thread.

And I thought it was wrong then too. Comparing classes in the context of an arbitrary subset of the game is going to warp your results. The Artificer looks much worse if you exclude magic items. The Fighter looks much worse if you exclude feats. And the fixed list casters look much worse if you exclude PrCs, because a large part of their power comes from having class features that benefit to a uniquely large degree from e.g. Rainbow Servant.


The other issue is that prestige classes can up-amp the Favored Soul dramatically---you get DMM[Persist], the Animal domain (for Shapechange), and domain slots (for greater anyspell) make a shocking difference to power level.

Sure. I'm quite willing to believe that a Favored Soul with PrCs is better than one without, possibly to the point of beating out


On one hand, I philosophically disagree with subverting wealth by level when optimizing.

I don't really know what this means in this context. Yes, it's expensive, and might not be worth it depending on the exact parameters of the situation, but you should at least be considering it because it is very effective. Also, if you're using restrictions on WBL, you should list them with the rest of the restrictions you're considering.


I'm skeptical about this, but if you want to present builds allowing PrC's go ahead. My primary reservation is that I think the Warmage is coming online late, you haven't fully resolved feat choices, and I don't think you've fully understood the power of Initiate of Mystra which starts coming online here at level 10 and for a Favored Soul with prestige classes as early as level 4. W.r.t. IoM, this build has not used but has allowed for the use of Static Dead Magic Timeless[magic] demiplanes which you really need an IoM to take advantage of as per the Planar Soldiers of Mystra (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?499269-Planar-Soldiers-of-Mystra).

It looks to me like you're presenting 20th level builds for this exercise. If you want to talk about multiple breakpoints, you can totally do that, though you should be careful to ensure that each character can legally progress to the next.

Godskook
2017-06-04, 02:12 PM
Excluding PrCs is giving an unfair advantage to the Favored Soul because it means the Warmage can't use e.g. Rainbow Servant to take advantage of one of his best class features (knowing all the spells on his list). It's like comparing Artificer v Dread Necromancer but banning items.

This is not an apples-to-apples comparison. Artificer was built was a presumed access to items. Warmage was not built with a presumed access to Rainbow Servant.

Cosi
2017-06-04, 02:19 PM
This is not an apples-to-apples comparison. Artificer was built was a presumed access to items. Warmage was not built with a presumed access to Rainbow Servant.

But it was built around presumed access to PrCs, because those are part of the game. And, as I hope you know, Rainbow Servant is a PrC.

Or, should we also ban splats that aren't Complete Divine for the Favored Soul, because it "was not built with presumed access to them"?

Godskook
2017-06-04, 02:31 PM
But it was built around presumed access to PrCs, because those are part of the game. And, as I hope you know, Rainbow Servant is a PrC.

Obscure and unusual interactions with one particular prestige class that's not a normal benefit of prestige classes is not as ubiquitous a feature as you claim it to be.


Or, should we also ban splats that aren't Complete Divine for the Favored Soul, because it "was not built with presumed access to them"?

Nah, we'll just ban Favored Soul's access to prestige classes, for an apples to apples comparison. :smallbiggrin:

Michel Lourdes
2017-06-04, 02:48 PM
First problem: Rainbow Servant is not a full caster. It lose acess to level 9 spells.
Rainbow Servant table explicit show it AND COMPLETE DIVINE PG 20. Explicit show Rainbow Servant as MODERATE SPELLCASTING.
No acess to level 9 spells = worthless

"Moderate Spellcasting" = These Prestige classes don't get more and better spells as quickly, but they have other abilities to make up for their reduced progress.


Second problem: You can't cast Arcane Fusion, you know Warmage spells not Sorcerer spells know by RAW.
Arcane Fusion require Sorcerer spell know.
Only Sorcerer or Monsters with sorcerer spellcasting can cast it.

Godskook
2017-06-04, 03:41 PM
First problem: Rainbow Servant is not a full caster. It lose acess to level 9 spells.
Rainbow Servant table explicit show it AND COMPLETE DIVINE PG 20. Explicit show Rainbow Servant as MODERATE SPELLCASTING.
No acess to level 9 spells = worthless

"Moderate Spellcasting" = These Prestige classes don't get more and better spells as quickly, but they have other abilities to make up for their reduced progress.

This is only a problem for RAI. In RAW, text trumps tables. Also, afaik, people still think Rainbow Servant is worth taking without full casting progression, albeit not as powerful an option for the purpose of this particular thread.

Zombulian
2017-06-04, 04:05 PM
Excluding PrCs is giving an unfair advantage to the Favored Soul because it means the Warmage can't use e.g. Rainbow Servant to take advantage of one of his best class features (knowing all the spells on his list). It's like comparing Artificer v Dread Necromancer but banning items.

Cmon now. You can't honestly believe that.

Endarire
2017-06-04, 06:30 PM
Dragon Magic 15 has a section on Initiate Feats. See spoiler below for quote.

Any character of a class that must select a deity and that uses the cleric spell list for spellcasting can treat his level in that class as if it were a cleric level for the purpose of qualifying for an initiate feat. For example, a favored soul (see Complete Divine) who had chosen Bahamut as his deity and who had reached 3rd level could select the Initiate of Bahamut feat. The character would then gain the benefit of the feat and would add the given spells to his favored soul spell list. Since the favored soul casts from a limited list of spells known, he still must add those spells to his spells known list as normal to cast them. If an initiate feat allows you to add skills to your cleric class skill list, you can choose to add them to the class skill list of the class you used instead of cleric to qualify.This means that a Favored Soul3 could take Initiate of Mystra, as could a Warmage1/Rainbow Servant10. Both could take Sacred Exorcist for Turn Undead and, with their CHA focus, be pretty spiffy at it.

If we allow PrCs, I vote Rainbow Exorcist Warmage due to aforementioned rules.

Kaje
2017-06-04, 06:52 PM
No acess to level 9 spells = worthless

This is a remarkably stupid thing to say.

Thurbane
2017-06-04, 07:59 PM
This is a remarkably stupid thing to say.

I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt, and say it was meant specifically in relation to this particular thread topic.

My 2 coppers? Without PrCs, my money is on the FS every time. The Warmage will likely have the edge in direct damage, but the FS has access (in more limited supply) to all the game breaking Cleric spells, and could easily defend.

Anthrowhale
2017-06-04, 08:48 PM
...I would suggest Planar Pocket (Drag304 44), assuming you're not using Acorn of Far Travel instead.
Banishment immunity and hour/level doesn't seem like a big enough advantage over Planar Bubble (which LHoM has).

And I thought it was wrong then too.
Maybe, depending on your purposes. Anyways, this seems best addressed by starting your own thread with your own preferred constraints.


Also, if you're using restrictions on WBL, you should list them with the rest of the restrictions you're considering.

That's a fair point. Added. I agree that WBL limits can be tricky with high burn rates.


It looks to me like you're presenting 20th level builds for this exercise. If you want to talk about multiple breakpoints, you can totally do that, though you should be careful to ensure that each character can legally progress to the next.
These are definitely both 20th level builds, but you can regress to L15/L10/L6/L1 by a process of subtraction. I tweaked the Warmage feat order to make this a little more palatable.


Second problem: You can't cast Arcane Fusion, you know Warmage spells not Sorcerer spells know by RAW.
Arcane Fusion require Sorcerer spell know.
Only Sorcerer or Monsters with sorcerer spellcasting can cast it.
This is a claim Lord Drako advanced repeatedly but never effectively argued because there is no rule anywhere stating that a

sorcerer spell you know
can not be a spell on the sorcerer list that a warmage
knows. Sorcerers just aren't that special.

...This means that ... a Warmage1/Rainbow Servant10. ...
It's more complex actually. A Rainbow Servant need not worship a deity so levels of Rainbow Servant do not qualify for initiate feats. However, you could add a second prestige class like Hathran which advances spells (and implicitly cleric spell access from Rainbow Servant) and requires a deity. So a Warmage 5/Rainbow Servant 10/Hathran 3 could take Initiate of Mystra as an 18th level feat. I discussed this in detail here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20971938&postcount=4).

Cosi
2017-06-04, 10:52 PM
Obscure and unusual interactions with one particular prestige class that's not a normal benefit of prestige classes is not as ubiquitous a feature as you claim it to be.

We're not talking about whether the modal Favored Soul is better than the modal Warmage. If Warmage/Rainbow Servant is better than whatever the Favoured Soul is doing (and there doesn't seem to be any real disagreement with that outside of probably-Drako), Warmage is better than Favored Soul.


Cmon now. You can't honestly believe that.

I absolutely can. The game is the game. If you ban arbitrary subsections of the game, you can make the results of a comparison come up whichever way you want. Fighter looks a whole lot better than Wizard in a core-only campaign set in a dead magic plane.


Maybe, depending on your purposes. Anyways, this seems best addressed by starting your own thread with your own preferred constraints.

I disagree. The idea that PrCs (or feats, or items) can be excluded from analysis without warping results is ubiquitous on this forum, and should be confronted head on rather than passive aggressively.


It's more complex actually. A Rainbow Servant need not worship a deity so levels of Rainbow Servant do not qualify for initiate feats.

I'm not sure where you're getting this. My recollection is that initiate feats require either Cleric levels or Divine Caster levels. You need to worship a god, but I don't think you need a class requirement to do so.

Godskook
2017-06-05, 12:02 AM
We're not talking about whether the modal Favored Soul is better than the modal Warmage. If Warmage/Rainbow Servant is better than whatever the Favoured Soul is doing (and there doesn't seem to be any real disagreement with that outside of probably-Drako), Warmage is better than Favored Soul.

Modal? I'm not sure how you're using that word, and thus, I can't parse your point here.


I disagree. The idea that PrCs (or feats, or items) can be excluded from analysis without warping results is ubiquitous on this forum, and should be confronted head on rather than passive aggressively.

DMG:

Prestige classes are purely optional and always under the purview of the DM. We encourage you, as the DM, to tightly limit the prestige classes available in your campaign. The example prestige classes are certainly not all encompassing or definitive. They might not even be appropriate for your campaign. The best prestige classes for your campaign are the ones you tailor make yourself.

This is the baseline for presuming prestige class availability. Any other baseline is a houserule. It is not arbitrary to evaluate PC classes in the absence of a subsystem the DM very reasonably won't give them access to, or won't give them RAW access to, because by RAW, the system assumes they don't have access.

Its the same reason we don't evaluate base classes under the strict lense of Gestalt, another optional ruleset that the DM gets to choose to be available in the game, or not.


The idea that PrCs (or feats, or items) can be excluded from analysis without warping results is ubiquitous on this forum

Actually, its the idea that hyper-specific build-paths that aren't typical can't be included because their inclusion will warp results. That's why the good tier list(Jaronk's) didn't factor in prestige classes at all, and for a few notable ACFs of his time, he including them as separate entries on his list. Yes, I'd assume a Rainbow Warsnake is better than a Favored Soul, period, but that's irrelevant to everyone but the high-end optimizers. For everyone else, Warmage can't keep up. And that's really where we need to place a tier list's priorities.

Cosi
2017-06-05, 12:13 AM
Modal? I'm not sure how you're using that word, and thus, I can't parse your point here.

In the statistical sense of "mode" -- the most common Warmage or Favored Soul. As far as I can tell, the topic is "which can you optimize more", not "which is more effective in most games".


This is the baseline for presuming prestige class availability. Any other baseline is a houserule. It is not arbitrary to evaluate PC classes in the absence of a subsystem the DM very reasonably won't give them access to, or won't give them RAW access to, because by RAW, the system assumes they don't have access.

Splats are also DM purview. Are you willing to give up the Spell Compendium? If not, your opinion on PrCs is just you trying to use special pleading to get the result you want.


That's why the good tier list(Jaronk's)

This is probably the least correct thing I have ever seen someone post on this forum, and I've seen at least three outbreaks of LordDrako.


And that's really where we need to place a tier list's priorities.

I don't think anyone else views this as tier thread. As far as I can tell, this is intended to be a discussion of a topic raised during a tier thread.

Godskook
2017-06-05, 12:39 AM
In the statistical sense of "mode" -- the most common Warmage or Favored Soul. As far as I can tell, the topic is "which can you optimize more", not "which is more effective in most games".

As I understand what's going on, the "no prestige class" restriction was put into place as a modal-ization rule, and it functions well in that regard, as prestige classes are *VERY* volatile to a build, and in ways not representative of the base classes used to get into them.

And then they optimized within the explicit rule-set they had.


Splats are also DM purview. Are you willing to give up the Spell Compendium? If not, your opinion on PrCs is just you trying to use special pleading to get the result you want.

1."Prestige classes" and "this book" are not the same apples-to-apples comparison. You really struggle with that, it seems. That's the second time in this thread I've had to point it out to you.

2.I'm perfectly fine evaluating Favored Soul and Warmage under those restrictions, and just like with the "no prestige class" rule, that evaluation would be only as good as the restriction-list its made under.

3.I can't quickly find any similar passage in Spell Compendium indicating its status as "only at DM discretion", akin to Prestige classes. Do you have a citation for what you're claiming?


This is probably the least correct thing I have ever seen someone post on this forum, and I've seen at least three outbreaks of LordDrako.

Eh? Did you think insulting my point was going to be sufficient effort, or did you have a real rebuttal to offer?


I don't think anyone else views this as tier thread. As far as I can tell, this is intended to be a discussion of a topic raised during a tier thread.

The thread apparently started as an off-topic in a tier thread, and seems to be using modalization rules from tier-thread considerations. The OP linked said tier thread as referential context for this discussion. Thus, I'm going to have to ask you to not speak for others, outside of quoting them directly, because my honest initial assessment on this contradicts yours. This very much seems to be a thread who's topic is derived purely from within tier-thread constrictions.

Anthrowhale
2017-06-05, 09:08 AM
I disagree. The idea that PrCs (or feats, or items) can be excluded from analysis without warping results is ubiquitous on this forum, and should be confronted head on rather than passive aggressively.

This seems an overstrong statement to me---essentially, you are saying that there are no legitimate questions are answered by excluding PrCs. Aside from the obvious (campaigns that exclude PrCs), a Warmage/Rainbow Servant 10 (assuming full casting) seems like a statement about Rainbow Servant more than a statement about the Warmage. My personal preference would be to say:

Rainbow Servant is Tier 1 (or probably Tier 2 where the table wins). It makes arcane casters Tier 1+.
Drake Helm is Tier 2. It makes arcane casters Tier 2+.

I realize that prestige classes and items are not generally tiered, but this seems like a more direct accounting of things which would make it clear the certain line item vetos deeply nerf the Warmage compared to other classes.



I'm not sure where you're getting this. My recollection is that initiate feats require either Cleric levels or Divine Caster levels. You need to worship a god, but I don't think you need a class requirement to do so.
From Endarire's quote:
...a class that must select a deity and that uses the cleric spell list for spellcasting...
So this is a 2-part test:

use cleric spell list
must select a deity

Favored Soul qualifies, but so do certain other combinations.

Cosi
2017-06-05, 09:49 AM
1."Prestige classes" and "this book" are not the same apples-to-apples comparison. You really struggle with that, it seems. That's the second time in this thread I've had to point it out to you.

The reason you think we can exclude PrCs (but not, say, feats or items) is because those things are DM purview. Splats are also DM purview. That is an apples to apples comparison, and the fact that you think it is not is somewhere between amusing and sad.


Eh? Did you think insulting my point was going to be sufficient effort, or did you have a real rebuttal to offer?

JaronK's tiers are laughable. They have no objective standards for rankings (making them worthless). They use "can it break the game" to formulate rankings (making them stupid). To top it all off, they are wrong on their own terms on classes like the Beguiler, the Dread Necromancer, the Factotum, and the Rogue.


The thread apparently started as an off-topic in a tier thread, and seems to be using modalization rules from tier-thread considerations.

OP referenced a point raised in a tier thread. That doesn't make this a tier thread any more than spinning a "what should feats look like" thread from a "what feats are good in PF" thread would make a PF thread. If it's really important to you that we not assume OP's opinion, perhaps you should ask them.


This seems an overstrong statement to me---essentially, you are saying that there are no legitimate questions are answered by excluding PrCs.

Well, what do we mean by "legitimate"? Certainly, there are questions answered by excluding PrCs. But are those questions ones we care about? I would tend to say no. Again, would we call a ranking of the Artificer that assumes no magic items legitimate? I think not, because the Artificer has direct and obvious synergy with magic items. Similarly, many classes have direct and obvious synergy with PrCs. For example, Wild Shape Ranger gets a great deal more out of Master of Many Forms than it does additional Ranger levels.

I think it makes less sense to restrict PrCs the more we think of this as an exercise discussing what might happen in an actual game (rather than a largely theoretical discussion). I've never played in a game where people weren't allowed to take PrCs, so if the goal is to answer questions about real games, it seems worthless to restrict PrCs.


Aside from the obvious (campaigns that exclude PrCs), a Warmage/Rainbow Servant 10 (assuming full casting) seems like a statement about Rainbow Servant more than a statement about the Warmage.

People say this, but I do not think it is at all true (at least of Fixed List Caster -> Rainbow Servant specifically). If you take Rainbow Servant as a Sorcerer, it is unimpressive. You spend ten levels, and you gain the ability to use your limited spells known on a new set of spells. If you take Rainbow Servant as a Wizard, it is unimpressive. You spend ten levels, and you gain the ability to spend money to learn new spells to prepare. Neither of those is a dramatic shift in power, and Rainbow Servant is a similarly limited shift in power for other arcane casters (such as Bards or Duskblades). But because of a specific trait of the Warmage, Beguiler, and Dread Necromancer -- their knowledge of all spells on their respective class lists -- Rainbow Servant is unusually powerful for those classes. It's simply not accurate to say "Rainbow Servant is Tier One", because for many classes, it isn't. A Bard/Rainbow Servant is little better than a Bard.

For a parallel, consider the Holy Avenger. In the hands of a Paladin, it gains a number of additional bonuses that potentially improve its utility. Which would be more accurate, to rate the item based on those bonuses (which only a single class can utilize), or to rate the class based on the availability of those bonuses?

zergling.exe
2017-06-05, 10:22 AM
I actually just decided to look up how the warmage's spells known works, and it is specifically spells on the warmage spell list. Then looking at the rainbow servant's class feature, it says that they can learn and cast cleric spells, not that they are added to the class' spell list. So rainbow warsnakes are actually not RAW. Huh.

Cosi
2017-06-05, 10:38 AM
I actually just decided to look up how the warmage's spells known works, and it is specifically spells on the warmage spell list. Then looking at the rainbow servant's class feature, it says that they can learn and cast cleric spells, not that they are added to the class' spell list. So rainbow warsnakes are actually not RAW. Huh.

Saying you can learn and cast something is the same as adding it to your list. In any case, the FAQ is pretty clear about it working.

zergling.exe
2017-06-05, 10:46 AM
Saying you can learn and cast something is the same as adding it to your list. In any case, the FAQ is pretty clear about it working.

By strict RAW, no it is not. It is not specifically saying that it is added your spell list, so it is not added to your spell list. Do you accept all the FAQ's rulings or just the ones that agree with you?

Beheld
2017-06-05, 11:15 AM
By strict RAW, no it is not. It is not specifically saying that it is added your spell list, so it is not added to your spell list. Do you accept all the FAQ's rulings or just the ones that agree with you?

Complete divine has specific statement about how effects that add to spells cast effect different classes. Not sure what that says, but pretty sure it exists, and may be relevant. After all what it says is "can learn and cast" so that means rainbow warmage can cast them all subject to other stipulations on his casting. If no other stipulation prevents, he can cast them.

zergling.exe
2017-06-05, 11:31 AM
Complete divine has specific statement about how effects that add to spells cast effect different classes. Not sure what that says, but pretty sure it exists, and may be relevant. After all what it says is "can learn and cast" so that means rainbow warmage can cast them all subject to other stipulations on his casting. If no other stipulation prevents, he can cast them.

And number one is knowing them, which they don't since they have to learn them first as they aren't on their spell list.

Beheld
2017-06-05, 11:57 AM
And number one is knowing them, which they don't since they have to learn them first as they aren't on their spell list.

Maybe, but he can learn them, it says so right there in the rules, so is there a stipulation that prevents him from learning and thus "knowing" all cleric spells? For Sorcerers they are capped in spells known: "the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed" but Warmages don't seem to have any such cap.

But sure, I'll assume from your refusal to address is that the section of Complete Divine on adding spells says something you want to pretend doesn't exist.

zergling.exe
2017-06-05, 12:00 PM
Maybe, but he can learn them, it says so right there in the rules, so is there a stipulation that prevents him from learning and thus "knowing" all cleric spells? For Sorcerers they are capped in spells known: "the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed" but Warmages don't seem to have any such cap.

But sure, I'll assume from your refusal to address is that the section of Complete Divine on adding spells says something you want to pretend doesn't exist.

As this is kind of off-topic for this thread I'll direct you to the thread I made about this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?526476-Rainbow-Servants-and-fixed-list-casters).

Anthrowhale
2017-06-05, 01:28 PM
Well, what do we mean by "legitimate"? Certainly, there are questions answered by excluding PrCs. But are those questions ones we care about? I would tend to say no. Again, would we call a ranking of the Artificer that assumes no magic items legitimate? I think not, because the Artificer has direct and obvious synergy with magic items. Similarly, many classes have direct and obvious synergy with PrCs. For example, Wild Shape Ranger gets a great deal more out of Master of Many Forms than it does additional Ranger levels.

I think it makes less sense to restrict PrCs the more we think of this as an exercise discussing what might happen in an actual game (rather than a largely theoretical discussion). I've never played in a game where people weren't allowed to take PrCs, so if the goal is to answer questions about real games, it seems worthless to restrict PrCs.


I'm pretty sure that PrCs are not allowed in all games. This may not be true in your experience, but I expect either no or controlled PrCs is a common experience. PrCs are listed as an optional and introducing them does complicate the game quite a bit with new mechanics.

The other point here is that allowing PrCs makes tiering near meaningless since everything becomes Tier 1 or 2. For example, a Commoner could switch into Ur-Priest with a little work. What is the value in a rating system that collapses everything to about the same rating? I don't get it.



People say this, but I do not think it is at all true (at least of Fixed List Caster -> Rainbow Servant specifically). If you take Rainbow Servant as a Sorcerer, it is unimpressive. You spend ten levels, and you gain the ability to use your limited spells known on a new set of spells.

Granted here.



If you take Rainbow Servant as a Wizard, it is unimpressive. You spend ten levels, and you gain the ability to spend money to learn new spells to prepare.

I don't entirely agree. The cost of cherry-picking the top Cleric spells is negligible here and far smaller than the use of the Drake Helm above.



Neither of those is a dramatic shift in power, and Rainbow Servant is a similarly limited shift in power for other arcane casters (such as Bards or Duskblades).

I agree they aren't a dramatic shift in power, but in the case of the Wizard it's because the Wizard was already T1, and in the case of Bards and Duskblades it's because they lack high level spell slots. If you consider something like the Death Master from Dragon Compendium, it makes a dramatic difference. The key differentiator here is high level spell slots with no (or crappy) spells. Obviously, spontaneous casting has some additional value but it's not as important as the capability to cast a spell from a good spell list. There are also other approaches available to achieve spontaneous casting.

Cosi
2017-06-05, 10:59 PM
I'm pretty sure that PrCs are not allowed in all games. This may not be true in your experience, but I expect either no or controlled PrCs is a common experience. PrCs are listed as an optional and introducing them does complicate the game quite a bit with new mechanics.

How many games have you played in that allowed Favored Souls, but not PrCs? Favored Souls and Dragon Magic, but not PrCs? And so on.


The other point here is that allowing PrCs makes tiering near meaningless since everything becomes Tier 1 or 2. For example, a Commoner could switch into Ur-Priest with a little work. What is the value in a rating system that collapses everything to about the same rating? I don't get it.

I think there's an obvious difference between Rainbow Servant (which progresses your base class's class features) and Ur Priest which (largely) does not. Also, the vast majority of cases are not as drastic as the Ur Priest -- how many PrCs can you name that exhibit that behavior?


I don't entirely agree. The cost of cherry-picking the top Cleric spells is negligible here and far smaller than the use of the Drake Helm above.

The best Cleric spells are large either Wizard spells already, or self buffs, and if you make a self-buffing Wizard, you're not taking Rainbow Servant.


I agree they aren't a dramatic shift in power, but in the case of the Wizard it's because the Wizard was already T1, and in the case of Bards and Duskblades it's because they lack high level spell slots.

You skipped someone. It makes little-to-no difference to the Sorcerer. Also, you've proving my point -- the classes have particular interactions with the PrC that are not captured by "Rainbow Servant, up two tiers".

Godskook
2017-06-05, 11:11 PM
The reason you think we can exclude PrCs (but not, say, feats or items) is because those things are DM purview. Splats are also DM purview. That is an apples to apples comparison, and the fact that you think it is not is somewhere between amusing and sad.

Citation needed. I asked once already. This is twice.


JaronK's tiers are laughable.

I mean, if you stand tall, its only cause you grasp at JaronK's apron strings.


They have no objective standards for rankings (making them worthless).

Yes they do....


They use "can it break the game" to formulate rankings (making them stupid).

No.....He uses "how powerful and/or versatile is this class" to formulate rankings.


To top it all off, they are wrong on their own terms on classes like the Beguiler, the Dread Necromancer, the Factotum, and the Rogue.

I've yet to see a tier list post any of these classes more than 1 tier off from Jaronk's. What's more, given your obsession with hyper-specific interactions, I suspect the reason you disagree with his list is fundamentally related to methodology, not inaccuracy within methodology.


Well, what do we mean by "legitimate"? Certainly, there are questions answered by excluding PrCs. But are those questions ones we care about?

Yes.


I would tend to say no.

You could make your own thread?


Again, would we call a ranking of the Artificer that assumes no magic items legitimate?

Again, apples and oranges, and presumption of mechanics.


I think it makes less sense to restrict PrCs the more we think of this as an exercise discussing what might happen in an actual game (rather than a largely theoretical discussion). I've never played in a game where people weren't allowed to take PrCs, so if the goal is to answer questions about real games, it seems worthless to restrict PrCs.

A lot of real games ban prestige classes entirely. Like my most recent campaign that I'm running. My last DM would've thrown a book at me if I brought a Rainbow Warsnake to his game, too.

Enough real games restrict power and access to prestige classes that trying to model this on real games leaves you outside your own position.

Anthrowhale
2017-06-06, 05:15 AM
How many games have you played in that allowed Favored Souls, but not PrCs?
I have not. It sounds like Godskook has. Anecdotal evidence is unpersuasive in general.



I think there's an obvious difference between Rainbow Servant (which progresses your base class's class features) and Ur Priest which (largely) does not.

I'm sure you can setup a test for which PrCs are allowed that only includes Rainbow Servant but I'm pretty sure you won't convince anyone in doing so. You've argued strenuously that PrCs should be allowed without mentioning any limits until this point based on the notion that PrCs are essentially always allowed. This is not the kind of argument you can back away from so easily, and the consequence of this argument is that the tier system collapses.



Also, the vast majority of cases are not as drastic as the Ur Priest -- how many PrCs can you name that exhibit that behavior?

More than you (Ur-Priest, Heartfire Fanner/Sublime chord, Divine Crusader[Spell]/Contemplative, ...).



The best Cleric spells are large either Wizard spells already, or self buffs, and if you make a self-buffing Wizard, you're not taking Rainbow Servant.

I disagree. The Cleric list has exceptional 'no save just die' combos like Surge of Fortune+Sense Weakness+Vorpal Sword and Holy Word+Ankh of Ascension+Prayer Bead[Karma].



You skipped someone. It makes little-to-no difference to the Sorcerer.
You apparently skipped what I wrote (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22065409&postcount=32). I granted that it doesn't change the tier of a Sorcerer.



Also, you've proving my point -- the classes have particular interactions with the PrC that are not captured by "Rainbow Servant, up two tiers".
I'm not sure where this is coming from---I never said anything about "up two tiers".

Amphetryon
2017-06-10, 08:55 AM
If the (10/10 casting) Rainbow Servant is allowed in considering the Warmage's efficacy, it seems to me the Favored Soul should be allowed PrC access. For example, War Weaver 5/Spellguard of Silverymoon. See also: War Weaver Handbook, Black Tactica Edition.

zergling.exe
2017-06-10, 09:48 AM
If the (10/10 casting) Rainbow Servant is allowed in considering the Warmage's efficacy, it seems to me the Favored Soul should be allowed PrC access. For example, War Weaver 5/Spellguard of Silverymoon. See also: War Weaver Handbook, Black Tactica Edition.

I believe OP just wants straight class comparisons, no PrCs or dipping. Someone else came in a few posts in and said that PrCs should be included in the evaluation and it created kind of a side track.

stanprollyright
2017-06-10, 10:21 AM
How is this a thing? Favored Soul has a better hit die, better saves, better spell list, and can cast in heavy armor. Warmage has...a cheesy interaction with a specific PrC capstone.

lord_khaine
2017-06-10, 11:04 AM
I do agree 100 % on that Rainbow servant should not be included in comparison, for all the reasons already listed a few times.

As for the actual question about the Warmage and Favored soul, then i also think its relevant to look at how effective each class is at lower levels? Because it looks like the Warmage is relying a lot on shapechange?

But how are these classes at level 6? 9? 12?

Anthrowhale
2017-06-10, 12:56 PM
I do agree 100 % on that Rainbow servant should not be included in comparison, for all the reasons already listed a few times.

As for the actual question about the Warmage and Favored soul, then i also think its relevant to look at how effective each class is at lower levels? Because it looks like the Warmage is relying a lot on shapechange?

But how are these classes at level 6? 9? 12?

The Favored Soul strongly wins at lower levels. The Warmage has an edge in initiative compensated by an edge in perception by the Favored Soul. The Favored Soul obviously has more spell versatility and the access to good armor makes a significant difference. In addition:

L6. Necrotic Domination gives access to Dominate Person 3-4 ECL early via Mother Cyst + Versatile Spellcaster
L8. Wall of Sand. This kills weak foes in confined spaces with no save.
L8. Maximized Shivering Touch is a melee touch attack that no save kills
L10. AMF+Magic available via a Magic Domain Staff + Initiate of Mystra + Versatile Spellcaster
L12. Greater Dominate Monster via Necrotic Tumor (+Versatile Spellcaster + Mother Cyst) about 5 levels early.

For the Warmage:

L6. Twin Easy[Twin] Lesser orb of Fire for 6d8 damage or Orb of Fire for 6d6 damage + daze will neg. 27 or 21+daze damage.
L8. Twin Easy[Twin] Scorching Ray for 16d6 damage. Add Sudden Empower 1/day. 56 or 84 damage on a ranged touch --- not bad.
L10. Drake Helm Snowsight + Obscuring snow grants one-sided total concealment all day, Magic Vestment + Barkskin grants some real AC.
L12. Antilife Shell, Draconic Polymorph, Twin Easy[Twin] Orb of Fire deliver 24d6 + daze (2 saves to negate). 84+daze or 126+daze with Sudden Empower damage is not bad.

Overall, the Warmage can deal respectable damage and around L10 starts to even become robust in combat. The Favored Soul is however operating on a different level via very early minionmancy, no-save-just-die spells, and AMF magic.

Zombulian
2017-06-10, 05:05 PM
How is this a thing? Favored Soul has a better hit die, better saves, better spell list, and can cast in heavy armor. Warmage has...a cheesy interaction with a specific PrC capstone.

Yeah but Cosi really really really really likes the Rainbow Warsnake so you're wrong.