Most OP paladin multiclasses

[Klorox]

A lot of attention is given to warlock, bard, and/or sorcerer around here, and with good reason: smite is already pretty damn powerful on a paladin, and the warlock recharges a couple of slots on a short rest, and the bard and sorcerer add a bunch of slots. All these classes synergize well with the CHA requirements, and the paladin really hits a nice power boost at level 6, meaning there isn't a bunch else the class adds.

But, if you're not really interested in going all the way to 6 as a paladin, and you want to bow out earlier, say at level 2 for the ability to smite, 3 for choosing an order, or 4 for an ASI, there are other choices which all help out.

3 levels of champion increases the chance you could critical hit. This is very useful as your smite damage will double twice as often, but you're losing some spells. Heck, may as well go half orc since we're crit-fishing and only getting CHA to 13 so we can multiclass.

3 levels of assassin. Sure, you probably won't get sneak attack damage (but you could with a rapier), but that's not why we're here. Assassins auto-crit in a surprise round. Will it happen often? No. But when it does, those smites are gonna hurt bad.

11+ levels of eldritch knight gives you 3 base attacks per round, which is more than a paladin will ever get. I've even seen a 18/2 EK/Pal build. It was... interesting.

You could choose to hit certain cut off points (3/3/11 in the examples above), and just fill the rest of the levels with the well known classes of warlock, bard or sorcerer, just to add more spell slots for smiting.

What do you guys think?

[Corran]

What do you guys think?
I think that, this:

3 levels of champion increases the chance you could critical hit. This is very useful as your smite damage will double twice as often, but you're losing some spells. Heck, may as well go half orc since we're crit-fishing and only getting CHA to 13 so we can multiclass.

... and this:

11+ levels of eldritch knight gives you 3 base attacks per round, which is more than a paladin will ever get. I've even seen a 18/2 EK/Pal build. It was... interesting.

... are hardly worth it.

The champion's increased crit range is not good enough to justify the investment (haven't done the math, but I am confident enough that I dont need to - ie, I trust my gut on this).

The EK doesn't get enough spell slots to justify the investment (paladin 2 or 3) either.


But this:

3 levels of assassin. Sure, you probably won't get sneak attack damage (but you could with a rapier), but that's not why we're here. Assassins auto-crit in a surprise round. Will it happen often? No. But when it does, those smites are gonna hurt bad.
This I am a fan of, cause I like assassins that do their dirty work up close and personal. Though the price you pay for this multiclass is quite steep, and unless you retrict the paladin and rogue levels to the absolute minimum (pal2/rog3) and also unless you invest heavily in a full caster class (to get utility assassin-magic -ie invisibility, alter self, etc-, and an ''extra attack'' of sorts -ie actual extra attack from warlock or bard, or quickened from sorc-), then it wont be worth it either.
*The UA warlock smite-invocations have made me considering dropping the paladin levels competely, but the paladin levels have still some advantages when investing heavily in a full caster like I described above (ie they will give you a higher level slot -eg, an 8th level spell slot from and end build perspective-, which you can use for upcasting spells and this is a big deal).


ps: I am not a fan of paladin 4 dips. Generally, I am not a fan of ASI breakpoints, especially when spellcasting is involved in the multiclass. Ther are ofc a few exceptions to this imo, where doing so (ie breakpoint for ASI) is worth it tempting, but I rarely see it as beneficial.

[Klorox]

The reason I'm ok with a level 4 paladin dip is that many people go for 3 because of the subclass.

Since paladin spell levels are 1/2, the calculations work out at 4.

The pal 2/assassin 3 is really nice with valor bard, since you'll (eventually) get a second attack.

[Âmesang]

I had a lot of fun with an antipaladin/assassin multiclass in an attempt to recreate the classic AD&D antipaladin/3e blackguard… of course it helped that my referee allowed me to use the D&D Next Playtest katana (I mean, "elven curve blade"), a 1d10 slashing, two-handed, finesse weapon (and even then it was also because the figurine I wanted to use was depicted with a two-handed curved blade).

Granted, to keep things simple, I just went back and forth between the two classes—things were slow going at first but eventually it made for a fairly good offense (Divine Smite and Sneak Attack with Cunning Action for mobility and Assassinate and Aura of Hate for a little extra punch) and defense (Aura of Protection, Uncanny Dodge, Lay on Hands, plus Medium Armor Master with adamantine half plate which makes full use of Stealth with Expertise).

In the grand scheme of things I'm sure a pure half-and-half antipaladin/assassin isn't the most powerful combination, but it was fun recreating a classic archetype and she did hold her own in the end…

[CaptainSarathai]

Barb+Champ for Reckless Attack and Improved Crit gives a 19% chance that you'll Crit on any given attack. Also nets you Action Surge.

Since at this point, you are officially Crit Fishing and slamming Advantage, I'd also go Rogue, HalfOrc and take TWF and dual wield. Getting the Bonus Action Attacks is where you make your mark. At 19%, with Extra Attack, Action Surge, and Bonus Attack you're making 5 swings and should get just about 1 Crit out of that. Crit should work out at 2d6+2SA+2Smite.

The problem with Crit Fishing for Smites though, is that Multiclassing hoses over your Spell Slots. That's why you're gonna see people nabbing Warlock, but with the new UA for Hexblade getting "Smites," taking levels of Pally is really kind of pointless now.
---

I've also kinda been tooling around with MCing into Kensei, but it's MAD as all hell, and I don't think it's worth it.

[Corran]

Barb+Champ for Reckless Attack and Improved Crit gives a 19% chance that you'll Crit on any given attack. Also nets you Action Surge.

Since at this point, you are officially Crit Fishing and slamming Advantage, I'd also go Rogue, HalfOrc and take TWF and dual wield. Getting the Bonus Action Attacks is where you make your mark. At 19%, with Extra Attack, Action Surge, and Bonus Attack you're making 5 swings and should get just about 1 Crit out of that. Crit should work out at 2d6+2SA+2Smite.

The problem with Crit Fishing for Smites though, is that Multiclassing hoses over your Spell Slots. That's why you're gonna see people nabbing Warlock, but with the new UA for Hexblade getting "Smites," taking levels of Pally is really kind of pointless now.

Wouldnt you just do that (ie crit fishing) better as a barb2/pal6/bard6 (+3 champ if you really want to push it for crit fishing) with the GWM (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?524136-Elven-accuracy-Melee-optimization)?
Dont think rogue levels for sneak attack and DW would help more than being a GWM, with the dpr difference in place (plus, investing in rogue levels will be tricky with all these levels required).

[DivisibleByZero]

The problem with Crit Fishing for Smites though, is that Multiclassing hoses over your Spell Slots. That's why you're gonna see people nabbing Warlock, but with the new UA for Hexblade getting "Smites," taking levels of Pally is really kind of pointless now.

That's kind of true for Str builds. But every one of those builds that uses a melee weapon requires a Str weapon via blade pact and not-Hex patron. And the Hex patron's weapon is greatsword, so Str again.
If you want a Dex based melee smite, Pally is required.
If you want to use Hexblade's Cha to attack and damage, you don't get a smite option.

edit:
Nevermind. The new UA added a Pact of the Blade Invocation which does exactly that, although it specifies a warlock slot, so the mileage will vary from DM to DM. The official ruling is that slots are interchangeable, so it wouldn't matter. But a DM working with strict RAW would only let you do it with Pact Magic slots.

[Vaz]

Tbh, Paladin does better being dipped, or even as far as going for Pal 5 (Extra Attack, Paladin 2nd's +2nd level Oath Spells), or even Pal 6 if you're really starting to push for Saves.

[Matrix_Walker]

A Warlock dip for some short rest smites and the magnificent ranged option is a good move.

[Squiddish]

I had a lot of fun with an antipaladin/assassin multiclass in an attempt to recreate the classic AD&D antipaladin/3e blackguard… of course it helped that my referee allowed me to use the D&D Next Playtest katana (I mean, "elven curve blade"), a 1d10 slashing, two-handed, finesse weapon (and even then it was also because the figurine I wanted to use was depicted with a two-handed curved blade).

Granted, to keep things simple, I just went back and forth between the two classes—things were slow going at first but eventually it made for a fairly good offense (Divine Smite and Sneak Attack with Cunning Action for mobility and Assassinate and Aura of Hate for a little extra punch) and defense (Aura of Protection, Uncanny Dodge, Lay on Hands, plus Medium Armor Master with adamantine half plate which makes full use of Stealth with Expertise).

In the grand scheme of things I'm sure a pure half-and-half antipaladin/assassin isn't the most powerful combination, but it was fun recreating a classic archetype and she did hold her own in the end…

Hold on, if you combine a paladin with an antipaladin, do they annihilate each other?

[Specter]

Not sure what's the most OP, but I can vouch for fighter 4 right away (any of them).

- They all give you Second Wind, which is short-rest rechargable, and nother fighting style (always good).
- Action Surge lets you cast a Paladin spell and attack at the same turn, which is very convenient.
- Battlemaster gives you short-rest maneuvers for an improved battlefield control (and damage, obviously).
- Champion gives you improved crit, which gets a bad rep, but when you have the option of choosing to smite after a crit, it's much more massive. Add in Vengeance for at-will advantage and let it rip.
- Eldritch Knight gives you access to Shield and Absorb Elements, which are already worth it on their own, and then something else like Find Familiar (and cantrips that Pally don't get).

[HermanTheWize]

What do you guys think is the best multi for Ancients Paladin level 6?

Going For Something That IS Very Hard To Kill

[cZak]

What do you guys think is the best multi for Ancients Paladin level 6?

Going For Something That IS Very Hard To Kill

My Fey Knight (OotA/ FeySorc) was a primary melee w decent ranged.
Extra attacks, Aura's to dampen any spells thrown at him. Focused on holding enemies & beating them.
Used Sorc abilities to boost defense; Shield, Blur, etc... Did almost no blasting.

[Klorox]

What do you guys think is the best multi for Ancients Paladin level 6?

Going For Something That IS Very Hard To Kill

One more level of paladin. 😜

[Matrix_Walker]

What do you guys think is the best multi for Ancients Paladin level 6?

Going For Something That IS Very Hard To Kill

One more level of Paladin is clearly going to make the most sense, as half damage from magic will obviously be huge...

If the goal is harder to kill and you hava a half decent DEX, throw in some Barbarian. (you can smite while raging y'know)

[HermanTheWize]

One more level of Paladin is clearly going to make the most sense, as half damage from magic will obviously be huge...

If the goal is harder to kill and you hava a half decent DEX, throw in some Barbarian. (you can smite while raging y'know)

Can you smite while raging?

[Matrix_Walker]

Can you smite while raging?

You just quoted me telling you you can. :P

[HermanTheWize]

You just quoted me telling you you can. :P

lol...haha thanks

Only downside I see is no heavy Armor

[DivisibleByZero]

lol...haha thanks

Only downside I see is no heavy Armor

People overrate heavy armor in 5e. You can get comparable AC with light armor on a Dex build, or medium armor with a moderate Dex. The difference is only a point or two (or equivalent, depending).

Heavy plate: AC18
Medium half-plate with Dex 14: AC17 - with MAM feat: AC18
Light studded with Dex 20: AC17

The only thing that heavy armor has going for it is feat support for a little bit of DR (and arguably the ability to dump Dex, arguable because that's a reasonably important stat).

[Citan]

I think that, this:

1. The champion's increased crit range is not good enough to justify the investment (haven't done the math, but I am confident enough that I dont need to - ie, I trust my gut on this).

2. The EK doesn't get enough spell slots to justify the investment (paladin 2 or 3) either.

3. This I am a fan of, cause I like assassins that do their dirty work up close and personal.

1. This would in fact be a great addition, if paired with another multiclass into a caster to get more slots (Warlock potentially best for short-rest slots and Darkness+Devil Sight for a solo character).
Simply because, precisely, you are someone who can choose to add up to 5d8 damage whenever he wants on a successful hit. And since a Paladin usually has not that much spellcasting, people generally tend to wait on crits to smite. So increasing your chance of smiting means increasing the chance to do a great spike damage when you really need it to.

2. The question is not about the spell slots only: EK also provides you some nifty spells to complement Paladin ones, including the always useful Shield for frontliners or otherwise. You also get the weapon cantrips that give you great single or dual target alternatives to plain Extra Attack. Finally you get Action Surge which facilitates much the use of Paladin features (Devotion: enabling Sacred Weapon, Vengeance: casting Haste, Ancients: casting Moonbeam, anyone: casting Shield of Faith AND a Smite spell for example). AND if you get high enough, you get Eldricht Strike which will make your smite spells deadly efficient.
A Devotion Paladin 3 / EK 11 / caster 6 for example would make a deadly foe.

In reverse, if you view it as "what can a 'Paladin 2 only' bring to my EK", then the most important benefit is not the smiting, it's the spells: for a class that has very few slots which are usually spent on self-improvement through Shield and later Mirror Image / Blur / Haste, getting strong 1st level buffs such as Bless or Shield of Faith are great ways to make your slots last. If you don't care about defense, then Divine Favor will bring an extra 3d4 or 4d4 per turn depending on your level and style. Searing Smite (persistent fire), Thunderous Smite (push+prone) and Wrathful Smite (frightened) are especially good uses of a slot in the hands of a character that can a) get 2 Extra Attacks in a turn with Action Surge b) impose disadvantage on a save from his next spell on successful attack (Eldricht Strike) c) keep his concentration reliably (native Concentration proficiency + potential Warcaster).

3. Except that, as you said, you would need a pretty heavy investment in Rogue and other caster to make it work, while having to do with MADness and cutting some of your features (like heavy armor if you want to sneak). And, you know what? I'm pretty sure that you could achieve the same "surprise" efficiency with much simpler combinations, such as going Bard until you get Greater Invisibility (and Pass Without Trace, possibly Silence) and a Fighter 2 to get Action Surge. Or going Sorcerer up until you get Greater Invisibility and Heightened Hold Person.

[Vaz]

1. This would in fact be a great addition, if paired with another multiclass into a caster to get more slots (Warlock potentially best for short-rest slots and Darkness+Devil Sight for a solo character).
Simply because, precisely, you are someone who can choose to add up to 5d8 damage whenever he wants on a successful hit. And since a Paladin usually has not that much spellcasting, people generally tend to wait on crits to smite. So increasing your chance of smiting means increasing the chance to do a great spike damage when you really need it to.
Just take Paladin 2-7/Hexblade Warlock.

[Psikerlord]

A lot of attention is given to warlock, bard, and/or sorcerer around here, and with good reason: smite is already pretty damn powerful on a paladin, and the warlock recharges a couple of slots on a short rest, and the bard and sorcerer add a bunch of slots. All these classes synergize well with the CHA requirements, and the paladin really hits a nice power boost at level 6, meaning there isn't a bunch else the class adds.

But, if you're not really interested in going all the way to 6 as a paladin, and you want to bow out earlier, say at level 2 for the ability to smite, 3 for choosing an order, or 4 for an ASI, there are other choices which all help out.

3 levels of champion increases the chance you could critical hit. This is very useful as your smite damage will double twice as often, but you're losing some spells. Heck, may as well go half orc since we're crit-fishing and only getting CHA to 13 so we can multiclass.

3 levels of assassin. Sure, you probably won't get sneak attack damage (but you could with a rapier), but that's not why we're here. Assassins auto-crit in a surprise round. Will it happen often? No. But when it does, those smites are gonna hurt bad.

11+ levels of eldritch knight gives you 3 base attacks per round, which is more than a paladin will ever get. I've even seen a 18/2 EK/Pal build. It was... interesting.

You could choose to hit certain cut off points (3/3/11 in the examples above), and just fill the rest of the levels with the well known classes of warlock, bard or sorcerer, just to add more spell slots for smiting.

What do you guys think?

I think this is why we dont allow multiclassing in our campaign ;)

[Specter]

I think this is why we dont allow multiclassing in our campaign ;)

I don't see your point. All of those multi ideas give you advantages, but you have to forgo all the other paladin goodies to get there.

[Corran]

1. This would in fact be a great addition, if paired with another multiclass into a caster to get more slots (Warlock potentially best for short-rest slots and Darkness+Devil Sight for a solo character).
Simply because, precisely, you are someone who can choose to add up to 5d8 damage whenever he wants on a successful hit. And since a Paladin usually has not that much spellcasting, people generally tend to wait on crits to smite. So increasing your chance of smiting means increasing the chance to do a great spike damage when you really need it to.
Mmmmmmm...... I played around with some crit-fishing builds (never actually played one though) when elven accuracy came about, and I admit that levels in champion can have a big impact. Though, every time I started thinking about progression and overall effectiveness, I would end up tossing these champions levels out of the window.
But I guess I am looking at it the other way around since the op asked a very specific question. Now, if I am already playing a champion, then yeah, as you said, a paladin dip and some warlock levels could add up with my champion levels in a very beautiful way. I guess I was just taking issue at why should I play a champion, and judging the overall build not to be worth it, instead of treating it as a given, that would justify the paladin dip. So I guess I let my personal bias show for no meaningful reason. Bottom line, I agree.





2. The question is not about the spell slots only: EK also provides you some nifty spells to complement Paladin ones, including the always useful Shield for frontliners or otherwise. You also get the weapon cantrips that give you great single or dual target alternatives to plain Extra Attack. Finally you get Action Surge which facilitates much the use of Paladin features (Devotion: enabling Sacred Weapon, Vengeance: casting Haste, Ancients: casting Moonbeam, anyone: casting Shield of Faith AND a Smite spell for example). AND if you get high enough, you get Eldricht Strike which will make your smite spells deadly efficient.
A Devotion Paladin 3 / EK 11 / caster 6 for example would make a deadly foe.

In reverse, if you view it as "what can a 'Paladin 2 only' bring to my EK", then the most important benefit is not the smiting, it's the spells: for a class that has very few slots which are usually spent on self-improvement through Shield and later Mirror Image / Blur / Haste, getting strong 1st level buffs such as Bless or Shield of Faith are great ways to make your slots last. If you don't care about defense, then Divine Favor will bring an extra 3d4 or 4d4 per turn depending on your level and style. Searing Smite (persistent fire), Thunderous Smite (push+prone) and Wrathful Smite (frightened) are especially good uses of a slot in the hands of a character that can a) get 2 Extra Attacks in a turn with Action Surge b) impose disadvantage on a save from his next spell on successful attack (Eldricht Strike) c) keep his concentration reliably (native Concentration proficiency + potential Warcaster).
Mmmmm...I dont know. This takes us back to that old argument (heh, do you remember?:smallsmile:) about how useful it is to pile up concentration spells on top of pre-existing concentration spells. Have no fear though, as since then (2 years before?) I have become a tiny bit more open minded.

So, assuming a set up of GWM EK11, I would say that a paladin dip (vengeance 3) would indeed offer some good benefits. Bless might compete with shield for 1st level slots, and with blur for concentration, but since GWM and 3 attacks, I'd say it's worth it (since being GWM instead of S&B takes value out of shield/blur). Advantage from VoE would pair well with GWM against the big bad between short rests, and smites would play well with your 3 attacks against the BIG BAD of the day. Protection from good and evil is a nice spell to have too. Not impressed much with most else a paly dip has to offer, and not really impressed with the other oaths compared to vengeance for this specific base (ie EK11 GWM), but I'll admit, the benefits dont sound bad at all. I would like to have a better knowledge of the EK, so that I can compare what we gain with what we lose, but unfortunately I dont. But as I said, it doesn't look bad. The real cost I guess is that we will have to dump our int hard, so no hold person eldritch strike + action surge + smite combo. With good rolls that would be something though...
So yeah, I like your suggestion about EK11/paly3/caster6, though I would probably prefer vengeance instead of devotion (that's partly because of my asumption that such a split should be a GWM, so in that case devotion would eat up 3 strong attacks, if not pre-cast ofc), and I listed the paladin toys that I think make the most sense for such a build (trying to narrow it down a bit more since I assumed GWM).
ps: Specter, feel free to jump in too, and advance/correct my half-baked ideas.

Assuming a S&B EK7 (I am afraid to assume more EK levels with a S&B set up), I am not sure if a paladin dip would be of as much value as above. Bless and wrathful smite are both very good spells, but now we rely more on shield for our 1st level slots than before (since S&B), and on blur for concentration (again, because S&B). Moreover, wrathful smite would depend on our charisma, so under point buy, it would probably be a mediocre option anyway. I guess protection from evil and good is still a good back up spell (in fact, better than in the GWM's case, since we can pair the disadvantage with a higher AC), but the spell is kinda situational so I am not too impressed. Though, now that I think of it, protection from evil might complement blur in some cases, as enemies not affected by blur, will probably fall into the categories that protection from evil covers (not too sure about this though). As far as smiting goes, assuming we resreve it mainly for when facing the BIG BAD od the day, then we put it to less use than the GWM EK (from above) does, but still, 2 attacks and action surge are probably enough to put as even with the GWM above, since are spell slots are limited enough. On the other hand, if we stop at EK 7, then we have more remaining levels to take with some caster class perhaps and tus increase our spells slots. Perhaps adding a 3rd level in crown for some extra stickiness, or oathbreaker to take some pressure out of blur/ protection from evil? Hmmm, not sure about this build. It's not that bad, but I think the paladin dip has more advantages if we stick it on top of a GWM EK 11.




3. Except that, as you said, you would need a pretty heavy investment in Rogue and other caster to make it work, while having to do with MADness and cutting some of your features (like heavy armor if you want to sneak). And, you know what? I'm pretty sure that you could achieve the same "surprise" efficiency with much simpler combinations, such as going Bard until you get Greater Invisibility (and Pass Without Trace, possibly Silence) and a Fighter 2 to get Action Surge. Or going Sorcerer up until you get Greater Invisibility and Heightened Hold Person.
Well, I suggested little investment in rogue. Something like rge3/pal2/caster15. Relying on spells to make up(?) for the loss of the assassin's subclass features, and for other forms of utility -suited to an assassin- as well. I've played this build, so let me tell you that the MAD aspect (STR 13) was.... lets just say, it was not enjoyable (I hate the paly's mc prerequisites!), but what was worse was the early lack of ASI's (first one coming at level 9!). Fortunately I had gone with vuman (nabing darkvision from the unbalanced shadow sorc), so I got to at least take 1 feat at level 1. Lack of ASI's is not the end of the world ofc, but it sure hurts.

About fighter instead of paly, hmmmm, I will disagree about the effect action surge can have on assassination damage when compared to what divine smite can do. Action surge is cheaper (short rest resource, compared to long rest resources), and you dont have to become MAD if you take the fighter levels instead of the paladin ones, but..... divine smite really delivers for those assassination rounds. And assuming you want to pull off an assassination against something scary, then having the raw power of smites behind you will really make a difference (my experience -made a narrow kill when on low hp- may have me be biased, but I really appreciate that extra punch that divine smite can do, when compared to action surge). This is because you are neither a GWM or a SS (if either of those is the case, then I can see the value of 2 fighter levels going up indeed), so action surge will have lesser impact on assassinations.

Mmm, without assassinate, the only thing that would come close imo would be the quickened hold + extra attack with smite combo. Comparing to assassinate, well...... they are very different. One requires surprise, the other requires a save; etc etc. Overall (for these two), I think assassinate is safer (need to spend less resources, and can add up to higher damage, and I think that surprise is generally easier than betting on the enemy to fail the save, partly because of the legendary resistances, but that might just be my preferences doing the talking.

[Citan]

1. Mmmmm...I dont know. This takes us back to that old argument (heh, do you remember?:smallsmile:) about how useful it is to pile up concentration spells on top of pre-existing concentration spells. Have no fear though, as since then (2 years before?) I have become a tiny bit more open minded.

So, assuming a set up of GWM EK11, I would say that a paladin dip (vengeance 3) would indeed offer some good benefits. Bless might compete with shield for 1st level slots, and with blur for concentration, but since GWM and 3 attacks, I'd say it's worth it (since being GWM instead of S&B takes value out of shield/blur). Advantage from VoE would pair well with GWM against the big bad between short rests, and smites would play well with your 3 attacks against the BIG BAD of the day. Protection from good and evil is a nice spell to have too. Not impressed much with most else a paly dip has to offer, and not really impressed with the other oaths compared to vengeance for this specific base (ie EK11 GWM), but I'll admit, the benefits dont sound bad at all. I would like to have a better knowledge of the EK, so that I can compare what we gain with what we lose, but unfortunately I dont. But as I said, it doesn't look bad. The real cost I guess is that we will have to dump our int hard, so no hold person eldritch strike + action surge + smite combo. With good rolls that would be something though...
So yeah, I like your suggestion about EK11/paly3/caster6, though I would probably prefer vengeance instead of devotion (that's partly because of my asumption that such a split should be a GWM, so in that case devotion would eat up 3 strong attacks, if not pre-cast ofc), and I listed the paladin toys that I think make the most sense for such a build (trying to narrow it down a bit more since I assumed GWM).
ps: Specter, feel free to jump in too, and advance/correct my half-baked ideas.

2. Assuming a S&B EK7 (I am afraid to assume more EK levels with a S&B set up), I am not sure if a paladin dip would be of as much value as above. Bless and wrathful smite are both very good spells, but now we rely more on shield for our 1st level slots than before (since S&B), and on blur for concentration (again, because S&B). Moreover, wrathful smite would depend on our charisma, so under point buy, it would probably be a mediocre option anyway. I guess protection from evil and good is still a good back up spell (in fact, better than in the GWM's case, since we can pair the disadvantage with a higher AC), but the spell is kinda situational so I am not too impressed. Though, now that I think of it, protection from evil might complement blur in some cases, as enemies not affected by blur, will probably fall into the categories that protection from evil covers (not too sure about this though). As far as smiting goes, assuming we resreve it mainly for when facing the BIG BAD od the day, then we put it to less use than the GWM EK (from above) does, but still, 2 attacks and action surge are probably enough to put as even with the GWM above, since are spell slots are limited enough. On the other hand, if we stop at EK 7, then we have more remaining levels to take with some caster class perhaps and tus increase our spells slots. Perhaps adding a 3rd level in crown for some extra stickiness, or oathbreaker to take some pressure out of blur/ protection from evil? Hmmm, not sure about this build. It's not that bad, but I think the paladin dip has more advantages if we stick it on top of a GWM EK 11.


3. Well, I suggested little investment in rogue. Something like rge3/pal2/caster15. Relying on spells to make up(?) for the loss of the assassin's subclass features, and for other forms of utility -suited to an assassin- as well. I've played this build, so let me tell you that the MAD aspect (STR 13) was.... lets just say, it was not enjoyable (I hate the paly's mc prerequisites!), but what was worse was the early lack of ASI's (first one coming at level 9!). Fortunately I had gone with vuman (nabing darkvision from the unbalanced shadow sorc), so I got to at least take 1 feat at level 1. Lack of ASI's is not the end of the world ofc, but it sure hurts.

About fighter instead of paly, hmmmm, I will disagree about the effect action surge can have on assassination damage when compared to what divine smite can do. Action surge is cheaper (short rest resource, compared to long rest resources), and you dont have to become MAD if you take the fighter levels instead of the paladin ones, but..... divine smite really delivers for those assassination rounds. And assuming you want to pull off an assassination against something scary, then having the raw power of smites behind you will really make a difference (my experience -made a narrow kill when on low hp- may have me be biased, but I really appreciate that extra punch that divine smite can do, when compared to action surge). This is because you are neither a GWM or a SS (if either of those is the case, then I can see the value of 2 fighter levels going up indeed), so action surge will have lesser impact on assassinations.

Mmm, without assassinate, the only thing that would come close imo would be the quickened hold + extra attack with smite combo. Comparing to assassinate, well...... they are very different. One requires surprise, the other requires a save; etc etc. Overall (for these two), I think assassinate is safer (need to spend less resources, and can add up to higher damage, and I think that surprise is generally easier than betting on the enemy to fail the save, partly because of the legendary resistances, but that might just be my preferences doing the talking.
1. Sorry, I don't remember. XD
Agreed that there is obviously some competition, but I'd say that Bless and Shield of Faith are worth it precisely because they add a different kind of long-term buff. Especially in a group even with Cleric, having the Fighter concentrate on a 1st or 2nd level Bless frees space for the Cleric to cast Spirit Guardians for example. :) And it would also help offset the GWM malus!
I won't argue back into choice of Paladin archetypes, because I know we'll always have some different opinions on each one's worth (like, I would probably take Vengeance like you if I went high enough to get Haste, but otherwise I'd go with Devotion instead because the Action Surge offsets its main drawback when you can't prepare ^^). XD
And you are very probably right (although I'm too lazy to try the maths) on the opportunity cost of getting 3rd attack instead of getting more caster levels for nova damage: my gut goes with you on the fact that second option is better for alpha strikes:
- Vengeance Paladin 3 / EK 6 / Warlock 11: one slot level overkill, but 3 slots per short rest + great ranged option for distant alpha strike (or with UA take the "ranged smite" option).
- Vengeance Paladin 3 / EK 5 / Warlock 7 / Wild Magic Sorcerer 5 for maximum slot optimization, with 2 max-smite per short rest and Extended/Quickened metamagic to draw more of your other slots (or use the short-rest combination to convert and create more 4th level slots beforehand depending on DM leniency).
- EK 11 / Tempest Cleric 4 (for auto-max damage) / Mountain Druid 5 (Lightning Bolt) (or plain Cleric 9+ if Shatter and Destructive Wave are enough for you): different kind of nova but can work well thanks to Action Surge and Eldricht Strike.
is probably the best alpha strike you could ever make

But I myself prefer more sustainable builds than alpha strike ones (as illustrated just before ^^) so that's why I prefer a build with EK 11 (because 3 attacks + Eldricht Strike offer many mean combinations, for example Slowing a group of enemies or ensaring them into a Stinking Cloud or Web).

2. I'd like to react on what you say in your first half but cannot at the moment, because I don't understand the reason of autolimitation (why not higher than EK 7 "because you are S&B"? Why necessarily using Blur "because S&B"?).
Now obviously the "smite" feature is lackluster on top of a Pal 2 / EK 7, the true value will lie in spells (confer just above, cannot detail at the moment).
As you may have guessed by reading my 1. just above though, as soon as you add some caster levels it becomes great, especially if you get weapon cantrips, and "much especially" if this caster is Sorcerer: because then you can make 3 Booming Blade attacks in your nova turn, all of which can "host" some smiting. In fact, if you don't care about sustainability, then War Magic is useless.
In that regard, Paladin 2 / EK 5 / Draconic Sorcerer 6 / (Fey/Radiant) Warlock 7 is by far your best option: you can add dump INT hard and instead get a decent CHA to boost your damage further on GreenFlame Blade. If UA allowed, the new Radiant Warlock (let's be honest, Undying Light was broken) gets another CHA bonus. Otherwise, Greater Invisibility (Fey) is there for the toughest fights. And if DM is generous with short-rest and abides by the most favorable "slot creation" interepretation, you could easily rack 4th level slots with Extended metamagic to prepare for the fight.

3. Well, Assassinate's main benefits are...
a) you have advantage against creatures that didn't get a turn yet.
b) any hit is auto-crit.
So Assassin with smite and enough slots could make (unless I'm mistaken which is very possible, I never actually played the Assassin, only theorycrafted it)...
a) your build, attacking and using all slots for smiting...
1d8 (weapon die)
2d6 (SA)
5d8 (smite)
everything doubled (crit) to which we add the DEX modifier.
so 2*(6d8+2d6)+5 is that right? For an average of 2*(18+7)+5=55.

b) an Assassin 3 / caster 17, using a 9th-level Scorching Ray (certainly not the best use of that slot, and there are certainly better attack spells, but it's for the sake of demonstration XD): 2*(10*2d6) = 40d6 for an average of 140.

Honestly though, there are many better (more damage, more sustainable) ways to exploit the Assassinate feature really.
But let's stick on the "I want to make a smite-based nova strike".
As we said, Assassinate benefit is auto-crit and advantage.
Let's take a few hypothesis...
a) an Eldricht Knight 11 / Wild Magic Sorcerer 7 / Pal 2 (= 11/3 + 7 + 2/2 so a 11th level caster, getting 3*4th level slots.
Use an Heightened Hold Person, stacking it with Bend Luck just to be sure. It's strictly the same as "advantage on attack" that Rogue has, except better because you can even further influence with Bend Luck (and enough ASI to bump CHA) so very high chance to succeed.
Creature is now paralysed: just close in as the GWM master that you are, and use Action Surge to kill it using all your slots, while benefitting the crit: 3*(2*(2d6+5d8)+10+5) = 45+3*(4d6+10d8) = 45 + 30d8 + 12d6.
Average? 45+135+42. See the difference?
Of course, it works only on humanoids. So let's consider a few other builds...

b) Eldricht Knight 7 / Wild Magic Sorcerer 11 / Pal 2: same with Hold Monster: less damage though because one less attack? Take Polearm Master and you get your bonus action attack. ;)

I'm sure there are other combinations that would work by using Eldricht Strike instead (so you can freely choose caster for example Diviner Wizard ^^) but I have no time anymore for now unfortunately.

Still, I hope I made the point that Assassinate is in fact something EK+caster can simulate very easily or even better. ;)

Thanks for reading ;)

[Corran]

snip

Thanks for the long analysis.
Couple of points. On the S&B EK I assumed EK7 because I was not sure if more levels in EK would be as useful as more levels in some other class. I mean, I can see value in both the ASI (lvl8) and in extra attack(2) (lvl11), but I wasn't sure if they were things that we should aim at, no matter what. So that's why only EK7, ie I dont mean that we shouldn't get more EK levels, I was just not sure since I am not certain against what these added levels would compete.

On S&B and blur and on needing to reserve 1st level slots for shield, perhaps I was overstating it. Good points on shield of faith and bless though, point taken (I guess a lot can be said about group composition, for example bless will be of more value if you have allies sharing the front lines -which is more likely to be the case than not, while resrving your concentration for blur/shielf of fait and your 1st level slts for shield would be far more critical if we were tanking alone -which yes, is not all that likely I guess).

About the assassin build, thanks for the damage breakdown. I would probably add that the assassin build I mentioned has an extra attack (either in the form of the extra attack feature/ thirsting blade inv, or in the form of quickened metamagic -perhaps even twinned for twinned assassinations -ie enemies within 10 feet of each other-), but I dont debate your point. There are builds with much higher assassination damage. For example, adding 2 fighter levels and talking our 2 levels of caster, would net us action surge and thus asignificant bump on assassination damage, yet that move would cost us a lot due to delayed progression/spellcasting imo. So it was more like, keeping assassination damage in good standards while remaining strong-ish overall (with some restrictions in the form of 'assassinate with a melee weapon').

As far as similar effect without the assassinate feature (EK11/WMsorc7/pal2) that you mentioned, I have to say, it sounds very good! The only drawback I see.... is that you dont get to do it in the stylish way (ie backstab them!!!).:smallbiggrin:

Again, thank you for the detailed reply.




1. Sorry, I don't remember. XD

Shame on you!:smalltongue:

[Citan]

As far as similar effect without the assassinate feature (EK11/WMsorc7/pal2) that you mentioned, I have to say, it sounds very good! The only drawback I see.... is that you dont get to do it in the stylish way (ie backstab them!!!).:smallbiggrin:

Again, thank you for the detailed reply.




Shame on you!:smalltongue:
Point taken on style. :)
And thanks for taking the time to read all. XD