[Meme] Who Would Win?

[Firechanter]

Why don't we play a little game...

I'm sure all of you internet-savvy people know the (relatively recent) meme "Who Would Win In A Fight?", where two sides are pitted against the other, one appearing by orders of magnitude more powerful, but the reader realizes that in fact the weaker side wins (or has "won" in the real world).

Like, for example:

https://pics.me.me/who-would-win-all-of-europe-a-sick-rat-18492918.png

So how about we find some "Battles" with surprising outcomes in the D&D / PF universe?
Of course it would be lovely if you took the effort to create an actual image, but it's not necessary.
Maybe also include an explanation why the weaker side would win in spoiler tags.

I'll start off with a few ideas:

============================================

WHO WOULD WIN?

An extremely slick Level 20 Rogue with idk like +50 Disable Device Skill

OR

A level 1 Alarm spell cast off a scroll for 25GP.
============================================

Alarm does not count as a Magical Trap per RAW, and thus cannot be disabled



============================================

WHO WOULD WIN?

A super-powerful incarnation of Horseman War wielding the Mother Of All Swords

OR

Some gnats.

============================================


Swarm rules. Nuff said.

Okay, your turn. Hope you have fun. =)

[flappeercraft]

Who would win:

An Ubercharger who can deal enough damage to kill all the deities, archfiends and archdevils HP's pooled together in one round
or
A group of tiny spiders (Spider swarm)

[noob]

It is complex because while the ubercharger might just flee(thus netting a brilliant victory for the swarm) he could also do a lot of environmental destruction instead of hitting the swarm(it is probably not immune to falling damage so if the ubercharger can dig a pit and then bull rush the swarm(was it immune to bullrush?) he might do some damage)

[Zombulian]

>recent
how about a classic:
who would win, a commoner with a spear or a common housecat?

[legomaster00156]

>recent
how about a classic:
who would win, a commoner with a spear or a common housecat?
Depends on who wins initiative.

[ben-zayb]

Who would win:

The mythical behemoth that is the Tarrasque,

Or the lowly allip

[Remuko]

Who would win? Every mundane character ever created in 3.5 or a single lvl 20 wizard (with prep time)

[legomaster00156]

Who would win? Every mundane character ever created in 3.5 or a single lvl 20 wizard (with prep time)
Are we including ToB mundanes? Homebrew mundanes? What makes a mundane mundane? Do they count the wizard fleeing as a victory?

[flappeercraft]

Who would win
All the elder evils who pose threat to reality itself and some have killed or are gods
or
An old crippled fart who likes to read his diary while wearing a pointy hat

[Celestia]

Depends on who wins initiative.
The cat has a 62% chance to win initiative, and even if the commoner still wins, he only has a 35% chance to hit the cat's AC. And that's not even counting stealth. If the cat takes 10 on its checks, the commoner only has a 10% chance to hear it and is physically incapable of seeing it. That means the battle likely starts with a surprise round from the cat, tipping things even more in the cat's favor.

[Hackulator]

Who would win in a fight, 1 quintilion electric eels or 1 magma.

[Remuko]

Are we including ToB mundanes? Homebrew mundanes? What makes a mundane mundane? Do they count the wizard fleeing as a victory?

No homebrew. Yes ToB. Wizard must die and not revive from a contingency he had set up during prep time.

[Lord Raziere]

how would win?

every adventurer ever.

or

water.

[Deeds]

Who would win: a legendary duelist wielding a rapier and a dagger or the fumble rules?

[Zancloufer]

Who would win:

The mythical behemoth that is the Tarrasque,

Or the lowly allip

Tarrasque would murder the allip so hard it isn't funny. Mathematically speaking his Bite will OHKO the Allip if it doesn't suffer from miss chance, and even with half his attacks missing (the more powerful ones) he probably will still win with a single full attack. Allip needs at least 4 rounds (probably closer to 7 mathematically) to KO Big T.

Remember: You only need a +1 effective weapon to hurt Allips and Big T's natural weapons are considered +6 for overcoming defences.



Who would win? Every mundane character ever created in 3.5 or a single lvl 20 wizard (with prep time)

Hmm. Every character ever created is a very large number of targets. Like insanely large. Enough so that through shear luck, number count, and variety of magic items the Wizard would probably loose. Your throwing a single level 20 character vs Schrodinger's Mundane army of NI size.



To the main topic: What would win? A spell effect created by all the gods of magic combined, or Bob the Truenamer and his pet rabbit?

[The Glyphstone]

Tarrasque would murder the allip so hard it isn't funny. Mathematically speaking his Bite will OHKO the Allip if it doesn't suffer from miss chance, and even with half his attacks missing (the more powerful ones) he probably will still win with a single full attack. Allip needs at least 4 rounds (probably closer to 7 mathematically) to KO Big T.

Remember: You only need a +1 effective weapon to hurt Allips and Big T's natural weapons are considered +6 for overcoming defences.



That's why it's a funny and unexpected upset, because Big T can't actually hit the Allip. His weapons specifically bypass DR/Epic, but they don't actually count as Magical for the purpose of striking incorporeal targets. Having DR/X lets your natural weapons specifically bypass DR/X, it doesn't grant an Enhancement bonus of any kind.

[noob]

Who would win: the multiverse or an angry warblade?

[Zombulian]

To the main topic: What would win? A spell effect created by all the gods of magic combined, or Bob the Truenamer and his pet rabbit?


Who would win: the multiverse or an angry warblade?

These are essentially the same question, and I love that Truenamers get to throw their hats in with Warblades in their ability to turn things off.

Along a similar line, does the universe count as an object? If so, if the Snarl started unraveling reality, could a Truenamer just utter Rebuild Item?

[Zancloufer]

These are essentially the same question, and I love that Truenamers get to throw their hats in with Warblades in their ability to turn things off.

Along a similar line, does the universe count as an object? If so, if the Snarl started unraveling reality, could a Truenamer just utter Rebuild Item?

Better question: Is the Snarl a magical effect that is effecting his pet rabbit? If so he can just use reversed spell rebirth to un-exist the snarl.

[Zephonim]

Who would win?

A level 5 wizard with shivering touch and spectral hand or a ancient red dragon?


A phthisic or a Purple Worm?

[Naez]

Who would win a Battletitan (CR 16 Dinosaur) or a level 3 wizard with ray of stupidity?

[Elkad]

Who would win?

A level 5 wizard with shivering touch and spectral hand or a ancient red dragon?

That one doesn't work. Wings of Cover, Touch AC in the 40s, Contingencies, etc.

[Inevitability]

Who would win?

-An ancient wyrm, destroyer of many realms, master of the arcane arts and all-around pain to fight.

-A low-level wizard who prepared Shivering Touch.

[danielxcutter]

Okay, I'll try this... A mid-level PC party

vs.

a dungeon's worth of Kobolds?

[Zombulian]

Who would win?

-An ancient wyrm, destroyer of many realms, master of the arcane arts and all-around pain to fight.

-A low-level wizard who prepared Shivering Touch.

ya got ninja'd by a couple hours there bud

[Inevitability]

ya got ninja'd by a couple hours there bud

Could've sworn I Ctrl F-ed the thread before posting that. Ah well.

[noob]

Okay, I'll try this... A mid-level PC party

vs.

a dungeon's worth of Kobolds?

Since 100% of the people expect the kobolds to win then it does not works.
Anyway you said a dungeon's worth of kobold so it is an unit of measurement and so do not means the kobolds have a dungeon the same way as a bucketfull does not means that there is a bucket.
So if the adventurers had a lot of scrolls of gate(and that the kobolds are not in a dungeon) they stand a chance to win with titans. Otherwise the kobolds seems overwhelmingly advantaged in common consciousness.

[Zombulian]

Who Would Win?

A Volcano

OR

A guy in some wet clothes

[Zale]

Who would win: the multiverse or an angry warblade?


Based on the zany stuff from the Immortal's Handbook: Ascension, the multiverse can replicate any Epic spell with a Spellcraft DC of 1620~ or lower as a free action, so my money's on the multiverse.

[flappeercraft]

Based on the zany stuff from the Immortal's Handbook: Ascension, the multiverse can replicate any Epic spell with a Spellcraft DC of 1620~ or lower as a free action, so my money's on the multiverse.

Warblade kills puny multiverse. Iron Heart Surge beat puny Epic spells. WARBLADE, SMAASH!

[The_Jette]

Level 20 optimized Pun Pun vs an industrial shredder

[noob]

Based on the zany stuff from the Immortal's Handbook: Ascension, the multiverse can replicate any Epic spell with a Spellcraft DC of 1620~ or lower as a free action, so my money's on the multiverse.


Is it wotc content?
also it is with a free action so the fight might go this way: The multiverse plays and is not aware that the warblade have the intent of destroying it since he did not yet decided to do so then the warblade plays so it is out of the turn of the multiverse so it can not take free actions unless it have a power allowing to do so then the warblade make the decision to use iron heart surge to remove the multiverse from existence.
What the multiverse needs is not free action stuff: it is immediate action stuff it needs.

[Zombulian]

Is it wotc content?
also it is with a free action so the fight might go this way: The multiverse plays and is not aware that the warblade have the intent of destroying it since he did not yet decided to do so then the warblade plays so it is out of the turn of the multiverse so it can not take free actions unless it have a power allowing to do so then the warblade make the decision to use iron heart surge to remove the multiverse from existence.
What the multiverse needs is not free action stuff: it is immediate action stuff it needs.

I'm not sure... the multiverse abides by turns...

[noob]

I'm not sure... the multiverse abides by turns...

He was speaking of a creature named the multiverse.
I was first speaking of the regular multiverse which is not a creature.

[Zale]

Is it wotc content?

Hahahahaha- oh, is it official content. This is from the books that gave us the Neutronium Golem.


I'm not sure... the multiverse abides by turns...

Of course it does. It gets three turns a turn.


He was speaking of a creature named the multiverse.
I was first speaking of the regular multiverse which is not a creature.

The gods work very hard to keep the cosmology from turning into a creature.

[noob]

Hahahahaha- oh, is it official content. This is from the books that gave us the Neutronium Golem.



Of course it does. It gets three turns a turn.



The gods work very hard to keep the cosmology from turning into a creature.

So the gods will probably help the warblade to use iron heart surge for turning the multiverse in a non creature thus the warblade will have a lot of support.

Also the neutronium golem is homebrew and never got the immunity to its own emanation and its emanation is never said to not target him so by reading his stats it looks like if it would die killed by its own power(that would still be a bad thing since there will still be horrible radiations everywhere)
I think that immortal handbook needs as much bug fixing as what Wotc write.

[~Mozza]

A bit offtopic, but can anyone explain me what does iron heart surge REALLY do? I understand it's strong and all, but what can you actually dispel with this maneuver (please don't say just "everything")? Thanks

[Zombulian]

A bit offtopic, but can anyone explain me what does iron heart surge REALLY do? I understand it's strong and all, but what can you actually dispel with this maneuver (please don't say just "everything")? Thanks

I... I'm sorry...

[Frozen_Feet]

I don't remember exact wording of IHS, but IIRC it allows a check to end any on-going effect affecting you.

The intent of it was to allow the user to shake off daze, stun, charm etc. Problem is, many of those don't allow the sort of action IHS would need to activate. So you can't use it to end many thing it was intended to end.

But there's a lot of things in the broad category of "on-going effects" which IHS wasn't intended to end, but which it, under the rules, can end.

Cue wordgames to make IHS end weird things. ("Gravity is an on-going effect! Iron Heart Surge to end gravity's hold on me!")

[Zancloufer]

A bit offtopic, but can anyone explain me what does iron heart surge REALLY do? I understand it's strong and all, but what can you actually dispel with this maneuver (please don't say just "everything")? Thanks

It exists in that funky grey area of RAW vs RAI and even then. Essentially if there is something effecting the character in questions (a status ailment that is trackable in some way) you can use Iron Heart Surge to make it go away. The problem is that while it probably means "you are no longer effected by the ailment in question" the wonky wording + impreciseness of English can make it equally viable to interpret it as "the thing causing the status ailment stop existing". Which ironically enough might not even cure the status ailment in question sometimes.

[Zombulian]

A bit offtopic, but can anyone explain me what does iron heart surge REALLY do? I understand it's strong and all, but what can you actually dispel with this maneuver (please don't say just "everything")? Thanks

The actual text is

Your fighting spirit, dedication, and training allow you to overcome almost anything to defeat your enemies. When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. That effect ends immediately. You also surge with confidence and vengeance against your enemies, gaining a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls until the end of your next turn.

The actual use of the ability requires a standard action, so as Frozen_Feet pointed out, it actually doesn't work on a whole bunch of things that you would wish it would. But... you might be able to turn off the sun.

[~Mozza]

Ok, I get it now. I assumed it was some funny thing like this, but I asked to be sure. Thanks everybody, even the one that cannot reply with other than "everything" :smallbiggrin: .

And sorry again for this little OT, you may now continue.

[Zale]

So the gods will probably help the warblade to use iron heart surge for turning the multiverse in a non creature thus the warblade will have a lot of support.

Also the neutronium golem is homebrew and never got the immunity to its own emanation and its emanation is never said to not target him so by reading his stats it looks like if it would die killed by its own power(that would still be a bad thing since there will still be horrible radiations everywhere)
I think that immortal handbook needs as much bug fixing as what Wotc write.

Of course it's homebrew. If you have an official source for stating out the multiverse as a being capable of interacting with a warblade, then I would love to see it.

As an aside, if the multiverse is a creature, then basically all of the gods will probably be dead. As I recall, putting itself back together would require merging all the planes into a single whole, which would probably have the knock-off effect of terminating all life.

[The_Jette]

Of course it's homebrew. If you have an official source for stating out the multiverse as a being capable of interacting with a warblade, then I would love to see it.

As an aside, if the multiverse is a creature, then basically all of the gods will probably be dead. As I recall, putting itself back together would require merging all the planes into a single whole, which would probably have the knock-off effect of terminating all life.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTgRTc3A4BMyVIkXfRbzQhzlOzejbQs7 fU7cHB_tcrtcEl-PMJupg

[noob]

As an aside, if the multiverse is a creature, then basically all of the gods will probably be dead. As I recall, putting itself back together would require merging all the planes into a single whole, which would probably have the knock-off effect of terminating all life.

I guess that do imply the warblade vs multiverse can not happen: before the multiverse forms the warblade is already dead.

[Zale]

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTgRTc3A4BMyVIkXfRbzQhzlOzejbQs7 fU7cHB_tcrtcEl-PMJupg

Are you accusing me of trolling or..?

I intended to drop the multiverse tangent after that post, I was just wanting to relate something that touched upon the idea of fighting the multiverse.

I apologize if that was unwelcome.

[noob]

I think I was the one being accused of trolling: the reply do not feed the troll was given to you thus meaning that you was not the troll.

[flappeercraft]

Level 20 optimized Pun Pun vs an industrial shredder

How does one exactly optimize pun pun though? If he is pun pun it doesn't matter if he's 5th level or 5quintillionth level, he's infinite

[ben-zayb]

Who would win:

A party of badass level 3 war veterans

Or a damn crab?

[Zombulian]

Are you accusing me of trolling or..?

I intended to drop the multiverse tangent after that post, I was just wanting to relate something that touched upon the idea of fighting the multiverse.

I apologize if that was unwelcome.

No you dingaling he's saying engaging with trolls is what feeds them. Taking arguments in a thread like this seriously is silly

[unseenmage]

Who would win...
PF version of Big T?
-OR-
Enough sand to drown Big T?

Turns out Big T isn't immune to drowning.


Who would win...
PF version of Godzilla, goes by the name Mogaru?
-OR-
A single quite skilled bard, preferably an undead or construct?

Mogaru is susceptible to song and commanded by music.

[Firechanter]

Who would win:

A party of badass level 3 war veterans

Or a damn crab?

Haha, nice one!

[Doctor Awkward]

>recent
how about a classic:
who would win, a commoner with a spear or a common housecat?


The cat has a 62% chance to win initiative, and even if the commoner still wins, he only has a 35% chance to hit the cat's AC. And that's not even counting stealth. If the cat takes 10 on its checks, the commoner only has a 10% chance to hear it and is physically incapable of seeing it. That means the battle likely starts with a surprise round from the cat, tipping things even more in the cat's favor.

No, a cat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/cat.htm) only has a +2 Initiative modifier. It has a 10% chance of going before the commoner, unless it has a higher Dexterity, in which case it wins on a tie and has a 15% chance of going before the commoner

But that doesn't really matter because cats don't just run up to things. They attack from stealth and prefer to ambush. So the cat sneaks into position and, being a Tiny creature, must enter his opponents space to attack him, so he must get within 10 feet to do his surprise round charge. That's a zero penalty on account of distance, a 10% chance of hearing the cat and a zero percent chance of spotting it. As a cat can only do a maximum of 1 point of damage on account of strength penalties, he is incapable of even disabling an average HP (2) commoner in a single round, let alone killing it. At which point, if the commoner wins initiative, he takes a 5 foot step back, swings with a 45% chance to hit (the cat has -2 AC from charging) to immediately disable the cat on even a minimum damage roll, and the cat provokes an attack of opportunity when it tries to re-enter the commoner's square to attack again, as it is too close to charge. So 1 round after losing initiative, there is about a 50% chance the cat is disabled, and a zero percent chance the commoner has been.

But that doesn't really matter either, because the commoner doesn't have his first level feat.

Worse still, the commoner doesn't have a race:
-If he is a Dwarf, he has an extra hit point for another round to kill the cat.
-If he is an Elf, there is no auto fail on Spot/Listen, increased AC, and a shortsword/longbow.
-If he is a Gnome, again that extra HP buys another round for the Commoner, and he can talk to the cat.
-If he is a Halfling, +2 AC & +2 to attack rolls when chucking a marble kept in a pocket at the cat.
-If he is a Half-Orc, Thog smash puny kitty! +1 attack/damage for one-hit unconscious and bleeding out.
-If he is a Human, he has worst combat feat ever (Toughness) and he still wins AND he still has an unused feat.

House cats easily killing adult humans is a hold-over from AD&D that has long since been rectified.

[Elkad]

Commoner with a spear.

He can't 5' away from the cat in his square and attack.

Of course he can just Withdraw 10'. Then the cat has to take an AoO no matter which direction it goes.

Now if the cat had Tumble (which it probably should...)

[Celestia]

No, a cat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/cat.htm) only has a +2 Initiative modifier. It has a 10% chance of going before the commoner, unless it has a higher Dexterity, in which case it wins on a tie and has a 15% chance of going before the commoner

But that doesn't really matter because cats don't just run up to things. They attack from stealth and prefer to ambush. So the cat sneaks into position and, being a Tiny creature, must enter his opponents space to attack him, so he must get within 10 feet to do his surprise round charge. That's a zero penalty on account of distance, a 10% chance of hearing the cat and a zero percent chance of spotting it. As a cat can only do a maximum of 1 point of damage on account of strength penalties, he is incapable of even disabling an average HP (2) commoner in a single round, let alone killing it. At which point, if the commoner wins initiative, he takes a 5 foot step back, swings with a 45% chance to hit (the cat has -2 AC from charging) to immediately disable the cat on even a minimum damage roll, and the cat provokes an attack of opportunity when it tries to re-enter the commoner's square to attack again, as it is too close to charge. So 1 round after losing initiative, there is about a 50% chance the cat is disabled, and a zero percent chance the commoner has been.

But that doesn't really matter either, because the commoner doesn't have his first level feat.

Worse still, the commoner doesn't have a race:
-If he is a Dwarf, he has an extra hit point for another round to kill the cat.
-If he is an Elf, there is no auto fail on Spot/Listen, increased AC, and a shortsword/longbow.
-If he is a Gnome, again that extra HP buys another round for the Commoner, and he can talk to the cat.
-If he is a Halfling, +2 AC & +2 to attack rolls when chucking a marble kept in a pocket at the cat.
-If he is a Half-Orc, Thog smash puny kitty! +1 attack/damage for one-hit unconscious and bleeding out.
-If he is a Human, he has worst combat feat ever (Toughness) and he still wins AND he still has an unused feat.

House cats easily killing adult humans is a hold-over from AD&D that has long since been rectified.
You have no Idea how math work, do you? A 38% chance to win initiative and a 45% chance to hit is a 17% chance to disable the cat. And even if we accept your faulty number of 50%, you are still laughably wrong in saying there is a zero percent chance the commoner is disabled. The cat wins initiative in roughly two thirds of the battles, and the commoner has, depending on race, one or two hit points remaining versus a full attack. The commoner is screwed. Even if he wins initiative, he has poor chances. He can win, but it would take some luck.

[Doctor Awkward]

You have no Idea how math work, do you?
https://cdn.meme.am/images/600x600/14856779/troll-laugh-slant.jpg
AH HAA HAA HA HAHAHAHA!

AH HAHAHA!!

HAAAAAA....!!


Hoo boy...

Ah that was a good one.


A 38% chance to win initiative and a 45% chance to hit is a 17% chance to disable the cat. And even if we accept your faulty number of 50%, you are still laughably wrong in saying there is a zero percent chance the commoner is disabled. The cat wins initiative in roughly two thirds of the battles, and the commoner has, depending on race, one or two hit points remaining versus a full attack. The commoner is screwed. Even if he wins initiative, he has poor chances. He can win, but it would take some luck.

You have no idea how actual gameplay works do you?

If you start them in front of each other in a completely featureless open space with the commoner armed? He wins. It doesn't matter what he is armed with. The cat is required to enter his space to attack. This always provokes an attack of opportunity. If the commoner hits? The cat is down. If he misses? The cat hits once for one point of damage. Then the commoner steps back and attacks. And the cat enters and provokes again. There is no statistically probable way this exchange ends in the cats eventual favor.
Or again, if elf, he just shoots the cat.

If you allow the cat an ambush? MAYBE he wins. It all comes down to the initiative roll. If the cat wins he begins combat in the commoners square. This is the only possible scenario in which the cat gets a full attack. Otherwise, he does a single point of damage and has to suffer at least two attempts by the commoner before he is allowed to attack again. Cats don't tactically plan out a strategic approach in which they best maneuver into optimal commoner slaying position. They don't think at all. They are cats.

In fact, if this commoner lives happily in the Kingdom of Ultimate Evil and has dedicated his life to, oh, I dunno... Father Llymic? He gets a free deformity feat. So he can take Willing Deformity, and then Deformity (tongue) for Blindsense out to 30 ft. This negates the ambush completely. He can also take Cloak Of The Obyrith out of Fiendish Codex I to gain DR 1/lawful. And now he is cat-proof.

Sure, he has the taint of demonic ancestry in his blood and he's pledged himself to the destruction of all that lives, but that's a small price to pay for the ability to safely run off a stray feline. And of course once Father Llymic unmakes the world, there won't be any cats.

[danielxcutter]

Please let that not be totally serious in terms of tone.

[JNAProductions]

Relevant reading (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?318517-Commoner-vs-Cat-A-Mathematical-Analysis)

Commoner never has a better than 63% chance of beating a cat, assuming no combat feats (because why would a Commoner have combat feats?).

[Zombulian]

This really wasn't meant to become a debate.

[Celestia]

This really wasn't meant to become a debate.
You posted something on the internet; you really should have known better.

[Zombulian]

You posted something on the internet; you really should have known better.

*Sigh* Yeah you're right. I just felt bad that my post would have contributed nothing to the thread but pointing out that this meme is, in fact, not recent at all.

[The_Jette]

How does one exactly optimize pun pun though? If he is pun pun it doesn't matter if he's 5th level or 5quintillionth level, he's infinite

It doesn't really matter, though, does it? Since his character sheet is still shredded, regardless.


Are you accusing me of trolling or..?

I intended to drop the multiverse tangent after that post, I was just wanting to relate something that touched upon the idea of fighting the multiverse.

I apologize if that was unwelcome.

No, I was not accusing you of trolling. Zombulian called it.

[jdizzlean]

In fact, if this commoner lives happily in the Kingdom of Ultimate Evil and has dedicated his life to, oh, I dunno... Father Llymic? He gets a free deformity feat. So he can take Willing Deformity, and then Deformity (tongue) for Blindsense out to 30 ft. This negates the ambush completely. He can also take Cloak Of The Obyrith out of Fiendish Codex I to gain DR 1/lawful. And now he is cat-proof.

Sure, he has the taint of demonic ancestry in his blood and he's pledged himself to the destruction of all that lives, but that's a small price to pay for the ability to safely run off a stray feline. And of course once Father Llymic unmakes the world, there won't [I]be any cats.


why don't you just apply a bunch of completely irrelevant things to the cat. a cat could worship a god, have some goodies from the BoED, and completely lay waste to the evil commoner just as easily. hell, the cat could potentially be a rank 5 master of any church from the complete divine. the argument is about a unmodified commoner vs an unmodified cat.

[Menzath]

Who would win,

All of the elder evils,

Or a 20th level monk?

[The_Jette]

why don't you just apply a bunch of completely irrelevant things to the cat. a cat could worship a god, have some goodies from the BoED, and completely lay waste to the evil commoner just as easily. hell, the cat could potentially be a rank 5 master of any church from the complete divine. the argument is about a unmodified commoner vs an unmodified cat.

Okay, so a commoner has a d4 hit die, and a +0 to hit with the one simple weapon they're proficient with (in this example a spear). They have an AC of 10, since there's no Dex bonus or NA bonus. You end up with +0 to hit, vs AC 14 for 1d8 damage (avg 4.5) and one attack per round. Spears don't have reach, though; that's longspears.

Cats have an AC of 14 (+2 Dex, and +2 Size) with a 1/4 d8 as their hp. So, commoners and Cats have an average of 2, with the commoner having a possible 3. But, they get +4 to hit with a claw attack, and a full attack of +2/+2 claws, and -1 bite, each doing 1 damage. So, if the cat waited until the human was next to it, and took its turn to do a full attack against the human (5' step into the commoner's space then full attack) there's a 65% chance that each claw hits, and a 50% chance that the bite hits. That leaves us with about a 21% chance that a common housecat that gets the drop on a commoner drops the human to 0 or -1 hp in a single round of combat. If the human has 3hp, and the cat misses on the bite, that means the human needs to take a 5' step back, since I'm fairly certain you can't attack into your own square (not positive on this one), and gets one chance to hit the cat. The cat has an AC of 14, meaning the commoner has a 30% chance to hit. On a hit, the average damage kills the cat. But, there's a 12.5% chance that he doesn't do enough damage to drop the cat. The cat then gets to go. Commoner gets an AoO for the cat entering his square. Another 30% chance to hit. Then, the cat gets another round, and the commoner probably dies. Honestly, the house cat still has an above average chance of winning the fight, if they get the drop on the commoner. That's sad.

[The Viscount]

Who would win: A 10th level Frenzied Berserker with a 35 strength or a wet floor?
Frenzied Berserkers cannot make balance checks while in frenzy, so grease can stop them.

Who would win: A sneak with superior invisibility or a sack of flour?
Flour reveals invisible creatures.

Who would win: A foul demon or a lucky punch?
The Nashrou from MMIV is instantly killed by a critical hit.

Who would win: The sneakiest of rogues or a pet dog?
As Piggy Knowles discussed in the necessity of Darkstalker, scent ignores Hide/MS.

[Zombulian]

Who would win,

All of the elder evils,

Or a 20th level monk?

God, that thread was incredible. Where the heck has Tippy gone?

[Firechanter]

God, that thread was incredible. Where the heck has Tippy gone?

I missed that thread, what was the idea?

[The Viscount]

I missed that thread, what was the idea?

The concept was to bring down all of the elder evils using a character with if not 20 levels, as much monk as possible. There was no restriction to PO, so people went all out with Tippy-level stuff.

[Menzath]

It was fun. I made a sneak based build that relied on ranged attacks(mostly the spell blood wind).

I think the first to clear it was a pure strength power throw build that could 1shot most of them, and if not had a full attack of throws after moving into range thanks to some shenanigans.

[Zombulian]

The concept was to bring down all of the elder evils using a character with if not 20 levels, as much monk as possible. There was no restriction to PO, so people went all out with Tippy-level stuff.

ECL 20 with at least 17 levels in Monk or a Monk-based PrC*

It was called "Tippy's Terrifically Terrible Trial"

[ahenobarbi]

The concept was to bring down all of the elder evils using a character with if not 20 levels, as much monk as possible. There was no restriction to PO, so people went all out with Tippy-level stuff.

Does anyone have a link? I can't find it :(

[ShurikVch]

Who would win,

All of the elder evils,

Or a 20th level monk?It's strongly depend on the conditions of "win"

For example, Sertrous is already dead.
Not "mostly dead". Not Undead. Not Construct. Not Petitioner.
Just dead.
How could Monk top that?
Kill him one more time? Big deal - Sertrous wouldn't be worse than at the start of the story

Or Atropus.
Atropus is a planet.
Can monk destroy the planet?

And finally, if we put aside the "gladiator's pit" mentality, we will see the truth: without the DM fiat, Elder Evils would win WO - how the heck you will find somebody who is hidden under the Anathematic Secrecy, constant CL 20 Nondetection, and have CL 18 greater invisibility prepared?
Monk doesn't even have neither Gather Information, nor Knowledge (local or/and dungeoneering) on the skill list...

[jdizzlean]

Honestly, the house cat still has an above average chance of winning the fight, if they get the drop on the commoner. That's sad.

one final thing that everyone has overlooked. after getting hit you assume the commoner would take a step back and attack again, or wait for the cat to enter his square. BUT, the cat would simply flop over on it's back, producing the commonly known "stomach rub trap" that everyone KNOWS is a trap, but still reaches in to rub that belly. then the cat would get the AoO+a full attack after that.

even if the commoner won initiative, the cat would probably just do this anyways to lure him in.

game/set/match cat.

[Zombulian]

Does anyone have a link? I can't find it :(

Just search the name that I provided.


ECL 20 with at least 17 levels in Monk or a Monk-based PrC*

It was called "Tippy's Terrifically Terrible Trial"


It's strongly depend on the conditions of "win"

For example, Sertrous is already dead.
Not "mostly dead". Not Undead. Not Construct. Not Petitioner.
Just dead.
How could Monk top that?
Kill him one more time? Big deal - Sertrous wouldn't be worse than at the start of the story

Or Atropus.
Atropus is a planet.
Can monk destroy the planet?

And finally, if we put aside the "gladiator's pit" mentality, we will see the truth: without the DM fiat, Elder Evils would win WO - how the heck you will find somebody who is hidden under the Anathematic Secrecy, constant CL 20 Nondetection, and have CL 18 greater invisibility prepared?
Monk doesn't even have neither Gather Information, nor Knowledge (local or/and dungeoneering) on the skill list...

Look at the thread, win conditions were fairly well accounted for IIRC.

[ShurikVch]

Look at the thread, win conditions were fairly well accounted for IIRC.Yes, I know:
Build an ECL 20 (or lower) character that has at least 17 levels of Monk (PrC's that advance Monk levels are allowed) and can solo every challenge in the Elder Evils book.But it doesn't explain neither how to avoid "lose by WO" situation, nor how to fix "Obligatum Infinity" problem

[Venger]

Does anyone have a link? I can't find it :(

here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?285801-Tippy-s-Terrifically-Terrible-Trial) you go.

[Zombulian]

>recent
how about a classic:
who would win, a commoner with a spear or a common housecat?

I actually forgot the Giant himself made this joke. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0780.html)

[danielxcutter]

I actually forgot the Giant himself made this joke. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0780.html)

Mr. Scruffy's much more powerful than the bog-standard housecat, though, as he's the animal companion of Belkar, a very high-level ranger.

[Inevitability]

Mr. Scruffy's much more powerful than the bog-standard housecat, though, as he's the animal companion of Belkar, a very high-level ranger.

Urban Companion, more likely. Cats aren't valid animal companion options.

[danielxcutter]

Urban Companion, more likely. Cats aren't valid animal companion options.

Oh, really? I didn't know that.

[Âmesang]

Who would win between Raistlin Majere and Elminster of Shadowdale?

……wait, Mordenkainen already asked that one.

[danielxcutter]

Who would win between Raistlin Majere and Elminster of Shadowdale?

……wait, Mordenkainen already asked that one.

I need CONTEEEEEXT!

Uh... yeah.

[atemu1234]

Who would win, a 20th-level wizard or a Sorcerer King? This is pretty specific to this forum, and I won't explain the joke.

[JNAProductions]

Who would win, a 20th-level wizard or a Sorcerer King? This is pretty specific to this forum, and I won't explain the joke.

I believe it was established that a 1st level Commoner wins, by virtue of being a legal build. :P

[atemu1234]

I believe it was established that a 1st level Commoner wins, by virtue of being a legal build. :P

Not if I stubbornly refuse to admit I'm wrong.

[ben-zayb]

Who would win:

The towering menace that is the Iron Golem,

or a puny Rust Monster or two?

[Âmesang]

I need CONTEEEEEXT!

Uh... yeah.
DRAGON Magazine #359, p.84—the last physically printed issue of the magazine (that I'm aware of) had an article detailing the pros and cons of the two mighty magi as if they would be pitted against each other… and at the end you find out that the "pitter" was making the arrangements on behalf of his boss, Mordenkainen.

(That same issue also featured the last chapter of Ed Greenwood's series of short stories, "The Wizards Three," where Elminster, Morndenkainen, Mord's apprentice, Rautheene, and a returning Dalamar all visit Ed's house once again.)

[The Viscount]

I believe it was established that a 1st level Commoner wins, by virtue of being a legal build. :P

Are you taking shirtless hunks into account though?

Who would win: A Tyrannosaurus skeleton or a fake picture?
Mindless creatures are tricked by illusions.