Say, who does Tsukiko worship?

[MReav]

I doubt that she worships any of the 12 gods, since they have been described as being Lawful Good? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0282.html) So, who does she worship? Cat? A foreign god? One or more of the 12 gods have split personalities that are evil? Or does she just worship the generic concepts of evil and death, or possibly death and lust and happens to be evil to boot.

I ask this, since she is a Mystic Theurge, so there should be cleric in there somewhere.

[Scarab83]

She probably just worships an ideal instead of a deity.

[Chrismith]

Minor SoD spoiler:

In SoD it's revealed that (at least) one of the twelve gods, Rat, is evil. It's possible that she worships him.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

SoD Spoiler, but still worth reading"

I don't think all the 12 gods follow only one alignment, since Rat was clearly shown as an Evil diety, next to Taimat. Each individual god has his or her own position in the pantheon and the Good/Evil-Lawful/Chaotic axis.

I don't know where each would follow, but a couple of them are somewhat logical:

Dog: Lawful Good? Most Likely (Yeah, I'm a dog owner!)
Monkey: Chaotic Good?
Snake: Lawful Evil? (I've owned snakes as well, and DON'T see them this way, but I'm usually in the minority)
Tiger: Chaotic Evil?

I put a question mark after all of these since animals are usually considered True Neutral. There is no reason to put one in each slot, nor any reason to assume more than one can not fit in a specific axis.

How Miko (And Mr. Jones as well) came to the conclusion that the 12 gods were Lawful-Good exclusively doesn't fit with what I've read about the Chinese Zodiac whenever I go out for Chinese (which is quite often :smallbiggrin: )

Any other thoughts?

[roadkiller]

Actually, I'd put the tiger as Lawful Evil and the snake as Neutral Evil or Chaotic Evil. The tiger tends to represent the predator, but also the strength and honor of the predator. The snake is generally depicted as the mindless or malicious killer.

It wouldn't surprise me to see one of each alignment and two of NG, TN and NE. That's how I'd do it, at least.

[MReav]

So, did Jones perjure himself on the 12 gods being lawful good?

Or is he just some ignorant outsider?

[RAGE KING!]

Tsukiko's deity is unimportant, you should have never brought it up, 'cuz now its on the ever-increasing pile of things we dont know.

[Guildorn Tanaleth]

Tsukiko's deity is unimportant, you should have never brought it up, 'cuz now its on the ever-increasing pile of things we dont know.

No, now it's on the pile of things we know we don't know. Before, we didn't know that we didn't know it, but now that it's been brought up, we do know we don't know, you know?

[Chronos]

Strictly speaking, Jones never said that the Twelve Gods are lawful good. He said that "The gods that you follow are lawful good". It could be that the Sapphire Guard reveres all twelve gods, but follows only a subset of them.

[SweetBB]

No, now it's on the pile of things we know we don't know. Before, we didn't know that we didn't know it, but now that it's been brought up, we do know we don't know, you know?

AAARG! Now my head REALLY hurts!

[Kish]

I ask this, since she is a Mystic Theurge, so there should be cleric in there somewhere.
Although Tsukiko does not strike me as a druid, paladin (heh), ranger, or blackguard, and the Player's Handbook II and various complete books annoy me, I feel obligated to point out in response to this (before someone says she must be a wizard as well) that the requirement to be a mystic theurge is divine spellcaster and arcane spellcaster, not specifically cleric.

[Ithekro]

The skeleton with the biggest bone. :smallamused:

[Chronos]

Although Tsukiko does not strike me as a druid, paladin (heh), ranger, or blackguard, and the Player's Handbook II and various complete books annoy me, I feel obligated to point out in response to this (before someone says she must be a wizard as well) that the requirement to be a mystic theurge is divine spellcaster and arcane spellcaster, not specifically cleric.Wait, that's it! She's a ranger/bard/mystic theurge! It's all so obvious now.

Oh, and she could also be an Adept, too.

[EntilZha]

Wait, that's it! She's a ranger/bard/mystic theurge! It's all so obvious now.

Oh, and she could also be an Adept, too.

Except for one thing...Adepts can't cast Inflict Critical Wounds. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html) It's not on their spell list.

[mockingbyrd7]

No, now it's on the pile of things we know we don't know. Before, we didn't know that we didn't know it, but now that it's been brought up, we do know we don't know, you know?

You deserve a cookie. Sadly, I don't have one.

Oh, and my opinion on the 12 Gods' alignments:

Dog - Lawful Good (I too am a dog owner, and dogs are the epitome of lawful good in my opinion. Loyal, obedient, caring, loving protective, affectionate)

Tiger - Lawful Evil (because of reasons already stated, the honorable but deadly predator.)

Monkey - Chaotic Neutral (from what I know of monkeys, at least the ones that are personified in comedy, etc., they're always troublemakers and pranksters, but not particularly good or evil.)

Dragon - Lawful Evil (fits the description of the green dragon of the SRD, also it just seems to fit)

Rabbit - Chaotic Good (spontaneous, playful, but loving and sweet. And they're really cute, and chaotic good is my favorite alignment, so they HAVE to be chaotic good. :smalltongue: )

Ox - Lawful Neutral (strong, loyal, dutiful, obedient, strong and silent type)

Horse - Neutral Good (sometimes wild and free, sometimes obedient and loyal, but most often a mix of the two. Also a very passionate animal and caring.)

Snake - Neutral Evil (malevolent and a loner, the snake is in it only for itself, not particularly chaotic or lawful though)

Rat - Chaotic Evil (messy, malevolent and full of disease, Rat is evil and spontaneous)

Pig - Neutral (blissfully content in its own muddy world, doesn't trouble itself with law or chaos or good or evil)

Rooster - Lawful Neutral (though unlike the ox in that he's not very strong and far from silent at dawn, the rooster is dutiful and obedient, but doesn't concern itself much with good or evil. It doesn't have much choice considering its size, it just does what it's told.)

Goat - Chaotic Neutral (I'm not a believer that goats are a symbol of Satan, but they aren't particularly good either. They are rather spontaneous and like eating trash, and act in a rather chaotic manner.)

[Nu]

Strictly speaking, Jones never said that the Twelve Gods are lawful good. He said that "The gods that you follow are lawful good". It could be that the Sapphire Guard reveres all twelve gods, but follows only a subset of them.

This is most likely the case, as I don't think the Sapphire Guard COULD worship evil deities, being paladins and all. And their clerics are almost certainly all good as well. So when Jones says that he probably only means the specific gods of the 12 that the Sapphire Guard follow.

[MReav]

Okay, my bad on my part.

[maitreyi]

I think Tsukiko worships herself.:smallyuk:

[the mysterian]

she worships xykons bony ass!

[Old Book]

One way to look at it:

Rat - A powerful figure and leader, Rat is intelligent, unpredictable, and prone to malicious mischief. He is Chaotic Evil, willing to do whatever it takes to reach his goals.

Monkey - Wild, undisciplined, a friend to and defender of humanity one moment and an enemy of Heaven the next, untamed curiosity and intelligence. Monkey is Chaotic Good.

Dragon - Power, self interest, destruction and creation, master of the storm and sea, unpredictable and unconquerable. Dragon is Chaotic Neutral.

Ox - Friend to man, loyal servant, hard working, unchanging, Ox is Lawful Neutral.

Snake - Wise and old, vain and critical, rewarding obedience but unforgiving of petty offenses, Snake is Lawful Evil.

Rooster - King of the barnyard, protector of the home, herald of the dawn, overseer, brave warrior, Rooster is Lawful Good.

Dog - Humanitarian, charitable, kind, defender of man and guardian of the home, hard working, loyal, Dog is Lawful Good at its very best.

Horse - Free and wild but broken to service, a good friend to a kind master and companion to heroes, not without courage but chooses flight over battle, Horse is Neutral Good.

Tiger - Brave and Proud, Rebellious, Hot Headed and Stubborn, a tireless enemy of injustice, Tiger is Chaotic Good.

Rabbit - Humble and cautious, affectionate and with a love of family, Rabbit is Neutral Good.

Pig - Cunning and pessimistic, self indulgent and selfish, Pig is Neutral Evil.

Sheep - Naive and self involved, passive and indecisive, Sheep is True Neutral.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

All 12 signs have good and bad aspects, but that doesn't fit the Alignment System. :)

[moscatabaco]

Er...

Asuming the Twelve Gods follow the oriental vision of the animals, snake will be Neutral Good. The snake is a symbol of health and wisdom in most oriental cultures - actually, the snake is evil in and only in christian ideology (even in ancient greece, the snake was a symbol of prophecy and healyng)

To be fair some monstrous creatures were snakelike (medusa, hydra etc.) but in general the snake is not evil in ancient myth; and certainly never in oriental views.

Dragons in oriental views are also very different. They're usually good, and in the OotS it seems that Dragon is the leader of the pantheon, so I guess it's Lawful Good.

Tiger is the one that (according to ancient beliefs) should be evil. Rat makes sense, too. And for some reason seems to be the sort of god that Tsukiko would worship - rats love graveyards and stuff like that, after all.

[The_Werebear]

Hrmm..

I am pulling these off Wikipedia, so they may not be totally accurate.

Rat: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_%28zodiac%29)
Positive Traits Meticulous, intelligent, charismatic, charming, ambitious, practical, industrious, eloquent
Negative Traits Controlling, resentful, manipulative, cruel, vengeful, stubborn, power-hungry, critical
Lawful Evil

Ox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ox_%28zodiac%29)
Positive Traits Responsible, dependable, honest, caring, honourable, intelligent, industrious, practical, patient
Negative Traits Petty, inflexible, possessive, stubborn, critical, intolerant, materialistic, eccentric
Lawful Neutral

Tiger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_%28zodiac%29)
Positive Traits Independent, brave, confident, dynamic, intense, energetic, sacrificing, faithful
Negative Traits Moody, reckless, hot-headed, selfish, impatient, impulsive, opinionated, rebellious
Chaotic Good

Rabbit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_%28zodiac%29)
Positive Traits Sensitive, tactful, well-mannered, hospitable, modest, diplomatic, artistic
Negative Traits Indecisive, gossipy, hypochondrial, naive, timid, gullible
Neutral Good, but only slightly over TN

Dragon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_%28zodiac%29)
Positive Traits Noble, dignified, honest, charismatic, vibrant, magnanimous, expansive, powerful
Negative Traits Ruthless, imperious, arrogant, dogmatic, pompous, despotic, intolerant, demanding
Don't know quite where to put this, but I am going to go for a Miko-ish Lawful Good.

Snake (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_%28zodiac%29)
Positive Traits Altruistic, self-contained, philosophical, discreet, gregarious, diplomatic
Negative Traits Judgmental, clingy, jealous, possessive, self-doubting, mendacious, anxious
More negative than positive, I am going to go NE, leaning towards TN.

Horse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_%28zodiac%29)
Positive Traits Lovable, enthusiastic, independent,intelligent,creative, optimistic, strong
Negative Traits Anxious, fickle, defiant, tactless, selfish, gullible, inconsistent, quick-tempered
Chaotic Neutral

Sheep (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheep_%28zodiac%29)
Positive Traits Creative, empathetic, generous, compliant, gentle, intuitive, modest
Negative Traits Irresponsible, anxious, lazy, self-pitying, capricious, indecisive, insecure
True Neutral

Monkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_%28zodiac%29)
Positive Traits Inventive, versatile, humorous, generous, intelligent, witty, lively, independent
Negative Traits Manipulative, opinionated, conceited, egotistical, capricious, superficial, meddling, careless
Chaotic Evil

Rooster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rooster_%28zodiac%29)
Positive Traits Brave, enthusiastic, witty, loyal, hardworking, meticulous, generous, talented
Negative Traits Self-Involved, materialistic, overly-romantic, pretentious, vain, bossy, fussy, blunt
Lawful Neutral

Dog (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_%28zodiac%29)
Positive Traits Loyal, modest, dependable, just, patient, intelligent, honest, well-meaning, caring
Negative Traits Nervous, quick-temper, judgmental, gullible, self-righteous, pessimistic, petty, accusing
Lawful Good

Pig (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_%28zodiac%29)
Positive Traits Caring, tolerant, sensitive, optimistic, obliging, honest, altruistic, hospitable
Negative Traits Materialistic, vulnerable, gullible, spendthrift, indulgent, hesitant, naive
True Neutral

Based on this, I would say Snake is Tsukiko's deity, and Dragon/Dog is most of the Paladin's.


Er...

Asuming the Twelve Gods follow the oriental vision of the animals, snake will be Neutral Good. The snake is a symbol of health and wisdom in most oriental cultures - actually, the snake is evil in and only in christian ideology (even in ancient greece, the snake was a symbol of prophecy and healyng)


True, but it could still represent, say, forbidden knowledge.

[factotum]

I'm not sure I agree with your Monkey assessment--what in his description strikes you as Evil? It sounds more Chaotic Neutral to me.

[The_Werebear]

Overall, the the good side traits were mostly neutral, and the bad side was evil, so I tilted him that way.

Inventive- Chaotic
versatile- Chaotic
humorous- Any
generous- Good
intelligent- Any
witty- Any
lively- Any
independent- Chaotic
Manipulative- Evil
opinionated- Any
conceited- Evil
egotistical- Evil
capricious- Chaotic
superficial- Any
meddling- Evil
careless- Chaotic

5 Chaotic
4 Evil
1 Good

[Magistrate]

Hrmm..
Snake (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_%28zodiac%29)
Positive Traits Altruistic, self-contained, philosophical, discreet, gregarious, diplomatic
Negative Traits Judgmental, clingy, jealous, possessive, self-doubting, mendacious, anxious
More negative than positive, I am going to go NE, leaning towards TN.



Hrmm..
Based on this, I would say Snake is Tsukiko's deity, and Dragon/Dog is most of the Paladin's.


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Altruism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism

Based on this, it sounds like you have no idea what altruism is.

al·tru·ism /ˈæltruˌɪzəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[al-troo-iz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. the principle or practice of unselfish concern for or devotion to the welfare of others (opposed to egoism).
2. Animal Behavior. behavior by an animal that may be to its disadvantage but that benefits others of its kind, as a warning cry that reveals the location of the caller to a predator.

Please do the following;

DIRECTIONS: Proceed to open mouth and insert foot\expell feces.

If we are using D&D's 'moral compass' of alignment, which leans heavily towards altruism, then Snake should at least be some form of Good. Neutral and Evil axis do not devote themselves to the welfare of others, at least not on general principle unless something is at stake that involves them or a peculiar quirk in their character, such as an Evil character having a lot of loyalty for his own home town or country despite being a shiftless backstabbing son of a wererat.

I could see Snake being a control freak lost in his own hubris, incapable of seeing the damage he does to his own children with his plans and schemes to benefit them but that is neither applicable to D&D's alignment system ( it'd be Evil or at least Neutral ) nor is it applicable to the descriptors you are working with and what projected guidelines we have for his personality in the OotS universe.

[The_Werebear]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Altruism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism

Based on this, it sounds like you have no idea what altruism is.

al·tru·ism /ˈæltruˌɪzəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[al-troo-iz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. the principle or practice of unselfish concern for or devotion to the welfare of others (opposed to egoism).
2. Animal Behavior. behavior by an animal that may be to its disadvantage but that benefits others of its kind, as a warning cry that reveals the location of the caller to a predator.

Please do the following;

DIRECTIONS: Proceed to open mouth and insert foot\expell feces.

I could see Snake being a control freak lost in his own hubris, incapable of seeing the damage he does to his own children with his plans and schemes to benefit them but that is neither applicable to D&D's alignment system ( it'd be Evil or at least Neutral ) nor is it applicable to the descriptors you are working with and what projected guidelines we have for his personality in the OotS universe.


Snake
Positive Traits
Altruistic- Good
self-contained- Any
philosophical- High Wisdom
discreet- Any
gregarious- Any
diplomatic- High Charisma
Negative Traits
Judgmental- Evil
clingy- Any
jealous- Evil
possessive- Evil
self-doubting- Any
mendacious- Chaotic/Evil
anxious- Any

More negative than positive, like I said. He has one good trait, followed by a bunch of neutral and evil ones.

Directions @ Magistrate: Activate Brain, Read Post, Close Mouth.

[malakim2099]

RE: Twelve Gods... it is probable that you could worship the pantheon as a whole as if they were a LN 'group' of deities. So a paladin could follow the whole of the Twelve gods (including evil members) without suffering any serious complications.

[Ithekro]

Well it was Monkey that suggested Ninja. Ninja is listed as any non-good. So that leaves Chaotic Neutral or Chaotic Evil, as I can't see a monkey of any kind being anything but chaotic.

[EntilZha]

Well it was Monkey that suggested Ninja. Ninja is listed as any non-good. So that leaves Chaotic Neutral or Chaotic Evil, as I can't see a monkey of any kind being anything but chaotic.

However, the Ninja base class in Complete Adventurer can be of any alignment.

[MReav]

Well, if I were to revise my statement, at least two would have to be Lawful Good (since there are multiple Lawful and Good deities that are worshipped in the original link)

[the_tick_rules]

we dunno, i'm sure a few in the 12 are evil. gotta have balance.

[Charity322]

Bah Tiger is Chaotic Good. Cats are not all evil! :smallyuk:

[Ithekro]

Heh heh. Cats aren't evil? How many cats have you had? Sure they aren't evil to you or anyone you know. But remember: Dogs think they are people, Cats think they are god. You live because you are a good servant to your feline master.

Yes I've had cats my whole life. My master requires food, warmth, and pettings these last 18 years. If I fail, I will know. Something evil will happen when my master becomes suddenly incontinent at 4am next to my head. :smalleek:

[Oberon]

Bah Tiger is Chaotic Good. Cats are not all evil! :smallyuk:

Yah, cats are pretty much the most evil of any domestic creature i can think of. You, obviously, do not read Dilbert. :smalltongue:

[DrunkMonkGar]

Back to the topic of Tsukiko's deity; my money is on Orcus, Demon Prince of the Undead and subject of the only PRC that requires Lichloved.

[Devils_Advocate]

More negative than positive, like I said. He has one good trait, followed by a bunch of neutral and evil ones.
I'm sorry, buy if you think that "has a negative connotation" equates to "Evil", you either don't understand that D&D Good and Evil are objective, or don't understand the concept of objective morality. The whole point is that whether something is Good or Evil is independent of how people feel about it. If anything, behavior that garners others' approval is Lawful, and behavior that others disapprove of is Chaotic.

Judgemental is a Lawful trait. Mendacious is a Chaotic trait. Neither of these is an Evil trait. :smallsigh: Altruism, on the other hand, is a definitively Good trait; it's practically synonomous with Good in the D&D sense. Possessive is... bad, admittedly. It might be sufficient to bump Snake down to Neutral on the moral axis. I'm thinking "basically Good, but still morally flawed", though.

[SITB]

The Bone God, the twice removed cousin of the Warhammer 40,000 Blood God.

[self mocking sarcasm]Oh, the wit[/self mocking sarcasm]

[The_Werebear]

I'm sorry, buy if you think that "has a negative connotation" equates to "Evil", you either don't understand that D&D Good and Evil are objective, or don't understand the concept of objective morality. The whole point is that whether something is Good or Evil is independent of how people feel about it. If anything, behavior that garners others' approval is Lawful, and behavior that others disapprove of is Chaotic.

Judgemental is a Lawful trait. Mendacious is a Chaotic trait. Neither of these is an Evil trait. :smallsigh: Altruism, on the other hand, is a definitively Good trait; it's practically synonomous with Good in the D&D sense. Possessive is... bad, admittedly. It might be sufficient to bump Snake down to Neutral on the moral axis. I'm thinking "basically Good, but still morally flawed", though.

My personal opinion is that those traits (Liar and Judgemental) are more evil, though both do have leaning towards Chaos and Law. I do however, see where you're coming from with the "flawed Good". I think it puts him at the inverse; basically evil, but not totally without good qualities.

However, in this case, it was my post, in response to interpretations I didn't agree with. If you chose, you can put up your own interpretations and I'll debate you on them.

If my interpretation is right, however, Snake makes a good choice for Tsukiko..after all, she's willing to be very giving to Xykon.

[Ithekro]

Is there a god for Necromancy? She would worship Xykon if he was a god.
Though if Xykon where 80 years younger and fleshy, he'd bend her over the first table he could find.

[EntilZha]

Is there a god for Necromancy? She would worship Xykon if he was a god.
Though if Xykon where 80 years younger and fleshy, he'd bend her over the first table he could find.

There is a Necromancer cleric domain, though I forget which deities have that domain at the moment.


And I don't doubt for a minute that he would.

[Geilan]

I thought Nerull was death god.

[EntilZha]

I thought Nerull was death god.

Indeed he is, but Rich cannot use him without invoking the wrath of the spooooky wizard who lives by the sea (wink, wink, nudge, nudge, say no more).

[MReav]

Indeed he is, but Rich cannot use him without invoking the wrath of the spooooky wizard who lives by the sea (wink, wink, nudge, nudge, say no more).

I don't know, he's gotten bolder. I think it's more that people wouldn't necessarily recognize Nerull.

[PaladinFreak]

Yah, cats are pretty much the most evil of any domestic creature i can think of. You, obviously, do not read Dilbert. :smalltongue:

You obviously don't read Dilbert if you think dogs are any better than cats!

Yeah, I'm a cat person through and through. :smalltongue:

[Purple_cloack]

I Think ANYONE of the 12 gods isn't evil, because why paladins worships gods who are evil? But I have read SOTD, and I say that rat is evil, because he Lead Cat away from zodiac.

[Moody]

Personally i feel that the 12 gods as a collective are probably lawful good but as individuals have their own agendas and personalities allowing them to deviate.

[Jher'c Kelborn]

Mr. Scruffy! :smalleek: