Rainbow Servants and fixed list casters

[zergling.exe]

So warmages learn their spells when they get access to a new rank of spells:
When a warmage gains access to a new level of spells, he automatically knows all the spells for that level listed on the warmage’s spell list.
However they only know spells on their spell list. Rainbow servant does not actually add the cleric spells to the class' spell list, just that they can learn and cast them:
A 10th-level rainbow servant can learn and cast spells from the cleric list, even if they don’t appear on the lists of any spellcasting class he has. ... This class feature grants access to the spells, but not extra spells per day.
It doesn't mention any where that it adds them to a spell list, so by RAW it doesn't. Therefore, warmages, beguilers and dread necromancers don't actually benefit from this class feature without taking extra spell.

[Beheld]

There are literally rules in Complete Divine that govern spell acquisition from other lists that zergling knows about, but refuses to quote.

[zergling.exe]

There are literally rules in Complete Divine that govern spell acquisition from other lists that zergling knows about, but refuses to quote.

The only ones I found were for extra domains at the start of the prestige classes chapter. Could you point them out to me?

[Zombulian]

There are literally rules in Complete Divine that govern spell acquisition from other lists that zergling knows about, but refuses to quote.

Hm. Yknow that's pretty inflammatory language for someone who is also not quoting what they're talking about.

[Beheld]

Hm. Yknow that's pretty inflammatory language for someone who is also not quoting what they're talking about.

I don't have my books on me at work. If he has the ability to quote Rainbow Servant, surely he can quote from the rest of the book.

[Zombulian]

I don't have my books on me at work. If he has the ability to quote Rainbow Servant, surely he can quote from the rest of the book.

I have the book with me right now and I can't find anything like what you're talking about. Your surety in attacking others while having no references is concerning.

P.S. I used to buy into the Warmage/other fixed list caster thing too. I've made builds for it. Since I'd heard about this exploit on forums I never put much research into it. But now that I'm looking, I can find no support for this claim.

[Dagroth]

The specific text is in the Rainbow Servant listing and the WarMage listing.

Text from Rainbow Servant: "A 10th-level rainbow servant can learn and cast spells from the cleric list, even if they don’t appear on the lists of any spellcasting class he has. Such spells are cast as divine spells if they don’t appear on the sorcerer/wizard or bard spell lists. This class feature grants access to the spells, but not extra spells per day."

Text from WarMage: "He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time the way a cleric or wizard must. When a warmage gains access to a new level of spells, he automatically knows all the spells for that level listed on the warmage’s spell list. Essentially, his spell list is the same as his spells known list."

Reading these two sections... Rainbow Servant makes the Cleric list your spell list. WarMage makes your spell list your known spell list.

Thus, WarMage can cast any spell that is on his list without preparing it ahead of time... and since the Cleric list is now on his list, he can cast those spells.

[Zombulian]

The specific text is in the Rainbow Servant listing and the WarMage listing.

Text from Rainbow Servant: "A 10th-level rainbow servant can learn and cast spells from the cleric list, even if they don’t appear on the lists of any spellcasting class he has. Such spells are cast as divine spells if they don’t appear on the sorcerer/wizard or bard spell lists. This class feature grants access to the spells, but not extra spells per day."

Text from WarMage: "He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time the way a cleric or wizard must. When a warmage gains access to a new level of spells, he automatically knows all the spells for that level listed on the warmage’s spell list. Essentially, his spell list is the same as his spells known list."

Reading these two sections... Rainbow Servant makes the Cleric list your spell list. WarMage makes your spell list your known spell list.

Thus, WarMage can cast any spell that is on his list without preparing it ahead of time... and since the Cleric list is now on his list, he can cast those spells.

I'm not sure I agree with that interpretation. I was about to come in here and quote the part "Essentially, his spell list is the same as his spells known list." Because Rainbow Servant explicitly does *not* add the Cleric list to your spells known, it grants access to learning them. It seems more to me that the passages imply a Warmage would only be able to cast Cleric spells if they took the Extra Spell feat to learn them, but it is not added to the Warmage Spell List specifically. In the same way that a Wizard would be able to then put Cleric spells in their spellbook, but they're still Cleric spells, not Wizard spells.

[zergling.exe]

The specific text is in the Rainbow Servant listing and the WarMage listing.

Text from Rainbow Servant: "A 10th-level rainbow servant can learn and cast spells from the cleric list, even if they don’t appear on the lists of any spellcasting class he has. Such spells are cast as divine spells if they don’t appear on the sorcerer/wizard or bard spell lists. This class feature grants access to the spells, but not extra spells per day."

Text from WarMage: "He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time the way a cleric or wizard must. When a warmage gains access to a new level of spells, he automatically knows all the spells for that level listed on the warmage’s spell list. Essentially, his spell list is the same as his spells known list."

Reading these two sections... Rainbow Servant makes the Cleric list your spell list. WarMage makes your spell list your known spell list.

Thus, WarMage can cast any spell that is on his list without preparing it ahead of time... and since the Cleric list is now on his list, he can cast those spells.

Except it doesn't. It says you can learn and cast cleric spells, but it doesn't say they are added to your spell list. Without adding them to your spell list, a fixed list caster doesn't automatically learn them.

There's also another thing I was hesitant to bring up in the OP, which is that by RAW a warmage (and maybe other fixed list casters, haven't checked them) learn their spells when they gain the spell level, and at no other point. However this is more open to interpretation and so I didn't pursue it.

[Dagroth]

Actually, the most key line in Rainbow Servant is "This class feature grants access to the spells"

If you go back to the Player's Handbook. You are granted access to spells when you take a level in a class. The spells you are granted access to are your class spell list.

A Warmage says that his spell list is his known spell list.

And done.

[Karl Aegis]

When you ask this question multiple parties will jump out of the bushes, quote some text from somewhere (maybe even from the FAQ) and proceed to ignore what the text actually says in favor of their own interpretation. Words will be removed, words will be added, but the words are not what the text says. Take Dagroth, for example. His text says, "Essentially, the warmages spell list is his spells known." "Essentially" is ignored so their interpretation makes sense. But, that is not what the text actually says. I'm sure others will show up with ye olde butcherred text, but they don't read the actual language used in the books.

[Zombulian]

Actually, the most key line in Rainbow Servant is "This class feature grants access to the spells"

If you go back to the Player's Handbook. You are granted access to spells when you take a level in a class. The spells you are granted access to are your class spell list.

A Warmage says that his spell list is his known spell list.

And done.

Um... No. That's the same argument I was making but you're coming up with an erroneous conclusion. Being granted access to the spells is specifically because they're not on your spell list and you shouldn't be able to learn them, even with feats like Extra Spell. By this wording, a Warmage can take Extra Spell to gain Cleric spells, as he now has access to learn them, but they are not added to his class list.

[Segev]

Reading the text blurbs posted here, it looks to me like the Warmage still doesn't have Cleric spells on his Warmage list. Rainbow Servant merely grants the ability to learn Cleric spells to the arcane class it improves. It says nothing about making them part of his class list. Now, the act of learning them certainly makes them part of that character's class list, but until they're learned, I don't see text saying that Rainbow Servant makes them part of the "class list" for that class.

This would also mean that a Rainbow Servant doesn't gain generic ability to use spell trigger or spell completion items of Cleric spells; the character who wishes to do so must first learn the spell. So if a Wizard/Rainbow Servant knows, say, cure light wounds, he can use a wand of it. But if he doesn't, he can't use it (at least, not without UMD).

[Zombulian]

On the topic of adding spells to unconventional caster's lists, I wonder how this would interact with Sha'ir. Since they have a Spells Known list they would actually be able to add Cleric spells to their list of spells known, but the wording of the Gen retrieval process is very exclusive to the Sha'ir list. So I guess... they could add Cleric spells to their spells known, not be able to cast them, but be able to use spell trigger/completion items with those spells?

[Anthrowhale]

The key quote for me is:

A 10th-level rainbow servant can learn ... spells from the cleric list
Rainbow Servant grants the ability to learn cleric spells via whatever mechanic exists for learning spells in the base class. For a wizard this is clear: you learn from a scroll, by explicit research, from a spellbook, or on level up. This is a little bit less clear for a Sorcerer, although the only reasonable interpretation from the text is that "learning is the process of coming to know" spells. More generally, "a process that causes you to know" is the logical definition of learning. This is important because a Warmage never explicitly learns, instead it comes to know spells. You could disallow access to cleric spells based on the word 'learn' never appearing in the Warmage class features, but that seems overly legalistic to me: a Warmage certainly comes to know spells and (hence) learns. There are two mechanics available:

When gaining a new Warmage level, you come to know all spells of the appropriate spell level on the Warmage list.
Advanced Learning provides access to one evocation spell of any level up to the highest level that can be cast.

The first mechanic grants all cleric spells of level 6 to a Warmage 1/Rainbow Servant 10/Warmage 1 while the second mechanic allows learning one chosen cleric spell up to the highest level that can be cast.

While this might make Warmage/Rainbow Servant fans happy, I think it's important to note that a Warmage/Rainbow Servant has another important issue. The class feature: "Spells per day/Spells known" only grants spells per day with one caveat. This means caster level does not advance (ouch) and spells known does not advance (mega-ouch). The caveat is that if there are two arcane classes, then spells known for level advancement is granted. Generously, we might assume this implies Warmage should learn spells known as normal as well. However, there is no case for caster level advancing. Hence, a Warmage 1/Rainbow Servant 10 has a caster level of 1!

[zergling.exe]

The key quote for me is:

Rainbow Servant grants the ability to learn cleric spells via whatever mechanic exists for learning spells in the base class. For a wizard this is clear: you learn from a scroll, by explicit research, from a spellbook, or on level up. This is a little bit less clear for a Sorcerer, although the only reasonable interpretation from the text is that "learning is the process of coming to know" spells. More generally, "a process that causes you to know" is the logical definition of learning. This is important because a Warmage never explicitly learns, instead it comes to know spells. You could disallow access to cleric spells based on the word 'learn' never appearing in the Warmage class features, but that seems overly legalistic to me: a Warmage certainly comes to know spells and (hence) learns. There are two mechanics available:

When gaining a new Warmage level, you come to know all spells of the appropriate spell level on the Warmage list.
Advanced Learning provides access to one evocation spell of any level up to the highest level that can be cast.

The first mechanic grants all cleric spells of level 6 to a Warmage 1/Rainbow Servant 10/Warmage 1 while the second mechanic allows learning one chosen cleric spell up to the highest level that can be cast.

While this might make Warmage/Rainbow Servant fans happy, I think it's important to note that a Warmage/Rainbow Servant has another important issue. The class feature: "Spells per day/Spells known" only grants spells per day with one caveat. This means caster level does not advance (ouch) and spells known does not advance (mega-ouch). The caveat is that if there are two arcane classes, then spells known for level advancement is granted. Generously, we might assume this implies Warmage should learn spells known as normal as well. However, there is no case for caster level advancing. Hence, a Warmage 1/Rainbow Servant 10 has a caster level of 1!

The problem with that is that the warmage learns all the spells on the warmage spell list, not every spell they can learn. So this interaction means that while cleric spells are available to learn, they are not learned by default due to not being on the warmage's spell list.

[Anthrowhale]

The problem with that is that the warmage learns all the spells on the warmage spell list, not every spell they can learn. So this interaction means that while cleric spells are available to learn, they are not learned by default due to not being on the warmage's spell list.

This seems like a case of specific exceptions beat general rules.

A general wizard can only learn spells from the wizard list via the wizard learning mechanic. A Wizard/RS 10 can only learn spells from the wizard or cleric lists via the wizard learning mechanic.

A general Wm can only learn spells from the Wm spell list via the Wm learning mechanic. A Wm/RS 10 can only learn spells from the Wm or cleric lists via the Wm learning mechanic.

[zergling.exe]

A general Wm can only learn spells from the Wm spell list via the Wm learning mechanic. A Wm/RS 10 can only learn spells from the Wm or cleric lists via the Wm learning mechanic.

This is true, and it means that warmage has to spend a feat on extra spell to learn cleric spells because their learning mechanic is spells on their spell list, which rainbow servant does not add cleric spells to. It makes learning them an option, but does not make fixed list casters learn them natively.

That's the most important thing I'm arguing, warmage only learns spells on their spell list, and rainbow servant doesn't add cleric spells to the character's spell list, just makes them an option to learn. Warmage (and beguiler and dread necromancer) must use methods other than their class' learning mechanic to learn spells that are not on their spell list.

[Zombulian]

This is true, and it means that warmage has to spend a feat on extra spell to learn cleric spells because their learning mechanic is spells on their spell list, which rainbow servant does not add cleric spells to. It makes learning them an option, but does not make fixed list casters learn them natively.

That's the most important thing I'm arguing, warmage only learns spells on their spell list, and rainbow servant doesn't add cleric spells to the character's spell list, just makes them an option to learn. Warmage (and beguiler and dread necromancer) must use methods other than their class' learning mechanic to learn spells that are not on their spell list.

Yeah. I think I'm gonna stand by this one being the most RAW answer, though I wouldn't fault a DM for ruling in a way that aligned with what these others are saying.

[Cosi]

Dagorth has the right of it. There's no difference between "your spell list" and "the spells you can learn and cast".


When you ask this question multiple parties will jump out of the bushes, quote some text from somewhere (maybe even from the FAQ) and proceed to ignore what the text actually says in favor of their own interpretation. Words will be removed, words will be added, but the words are not what the text says. Take Dagroth, for example. His text says, "Essentially, the warmages spell list is his spells known." "Essentially" is ignored so their interpretation makes sense. But, that is not what the text actually says. I'm sure others will show up with ye olde butcherred text, but they don't read the actual language used in the books.

Friendly reminder that the person lecturing you all about reading thinks UMD applies to class features. Karl is not arguing in good faith, has never argued in good faith, and does not seem to be able to argue in good faith.


Reading the text blurbs posted here, it looks to me like the Warmage still doesn't have Cleric spells on his Warmage list. Rainbow Servant merely grants the ability to learn Cleric spells to the arcane class it improves. It says nothing about making them part of his class list. Now, the act of learning them certainly makes them part of that character's class list, but until they're learned, I don't see text saying that Rainbow Servant makes them part of the "class list" for that class.

Can you find anything that articulates a distinction between your spell list and the list of spells you can learn?

Also, this sounds like the line of argument from the Knowstone thread that ends up making it impossible to expand the spell list of any individual character.

[Zombulian]

Can you find anything that articulates a distinction between your spell list and the list of spells you can learn?

Also, this sounds like the line of argument from the Knowstone thread that ends up making it impossible to expand the spell list of any individual character.

Mmm yeah I was afraid we were getting close to that point, though I'm fairly sure there are a few instances where the wording "add these spells to your class spell list" appears, which is why I was getting the impression that the wording for Rainbow Servant is exceptional. I'll do some digging and come back.

Edit: the feat Arcane Disciple has the explicit text of "adding these spells to your class list" well, paraphrased at least. And the Jaunter PrC's caster adaptation has the same wording, though that example somehow seems weak, maybe because it's a PrC from a fairly obscure adventure module. I'll need to keep digging.

[zergling.exe]

Dagorth has the right of it. There's no difference between "your spell list" and "the spells you can learn and cast".



Friendly reminder that the person lecturing you all about reading thinks UMD applies to class features. Karl is not arguing in good faith, has never argued in good faith, and does not seem to be able to argue in good faith.



Can you find anything that articulates a distinction between your spell list and the list of spells you can learn?

Also, this sounds like the line of argument from the Knowstone thread that ends up making it impossible to expand the spell list of any individual character.

Well here's the thing, there are three different spell acquisition methods I'll talk about here: wyrm wizard, knowstones, and rainbow servant.

Wyrm wizard allows you to research a spell and add it to your class spell list, however it doesn't actually say that you know it yet. A wizard would still have to scribe it separately into their spell book.

Knowstones add a spell directly to your spells known. Any class can always casts spells that they know provided that they have a slot of the appropriate level (for spontaneous) or have it prepared (for prepared).

Rainbow servant says that you can learn and cast all cleric spells. It neither says that they are added to your spell list or that they become known, just that you can learn and cast them. To make this function at all they would have to be able to become known of course so that you could cast them, but they are not actually added to your spell list, meaning you would always have to UMD any items containing cleric spells that are not on another list you possess. This also means that fixed list casters don't know them by virtue of knowing all spells on their spell list, since they are never added to it.

Now are you free to say that spells that you learn are added to your spell list? Absolutely. Can the DM decide that all cleric spells are added to your spell list? Absolutely. Is it RAW that they are added to your spell list? Absolutely not. The ability never tells you that they are, so RAW they are not.

[Zombulian]

Friendly reminder that the person lecturing you all about reading thinks UMD applies to class features. Karl is not arguing in good faith, has never argued in good faith, and does not seem to be able to argue in good faith.


I do just find it delicious that you make accusations about someone not arguing in good faith while making ad hominem attacks and not providing an in-text basis for your argument.

[Grim Reader]

Dagorth has the right of it. There's no difference between "your spell list" and "the spells you can learn and cast".

I don't think this can be correct. It would mean that any spell you know and can cast automatically becomes part of your spell list. But there are a number of ways to add spells known that doesn't automatically go on your list, isn't there?


In regards to the Rainbow Servant/Fixed list casters issue, it is based on the rule that text trumps table. However, if there are differences between editions, the later edition takes precedence. The Spanish and Portugese editions of Complete Divine differed on the text, it was corrected to match table in one of them. It was never clear which one was the latest edition.

Towards the end of 3.5, on the WOTC forums, the forum summarize the most hotly debated topics on a thread, and the writers came down from on high and settled/gave their opinion on the topics. One of the topics were the text/table issue of Rainbow Servant. Their opinion was that it was ruleswise a 10/10 advancement class, but they heavily recommended DMs to use the 6/10 version. Since then its generally been assumed to be 10/10.

That is how I remember it from a thread about a decade ago anyway. My memory may not be perfect.

[zergling.exe]

In regards to the Rainbow Servant/Fixed list casters issue, it is based on the rule that text trumps table. However, if there are differences between editions, the later edition takes precedence. The Spanish and Portugese editions of Complete Divine differed on the text, it was corrected to match table in one of them. It was never clear which one was the latest edition.

Towards the end of 3.5, on the WOTC forums, the forum summarize the most hotly debated topics on a thread, and the writers came down from on high and settled/gave their opinion on the topics. One of the topics were the text/table issue of Rainbow Servant. Their opinion was that it was ruleswise a 10/10 advancement class, but they heavily recommended DMs to use the 6/10 version. Since then its generally been assumed to be 10/10.

That is how I remember it from a thread about a decade ago anyway. My memory may not be perfect.

Whether rainbow servant is a 10/10 or a 6/10 has nothing to do with this thread. This thread is solely about whether or not rainbow servant's capstone adds all cleric spells to your spell list, which it doesn't explicitly say it does.

[CozJa]

One other interesting thing to consider is the Silver Pyromancer from Five Nations: when it says that it gets access to paladin spells as arcane spells, it explicitly rules out Warmage from the group of classes that can do it.

[Anthrowhale]

This is true, and it means that warmage has to spend a feat on extra spell to learn cleric spells because their learning mechanic is spells on their spell list, which rainbow servant does not add cleric spells to. It makes learning them an option, but does not make fixed list casters learn them natively.

That's the most important thing I'm arguing, warmage only learns spells on their spell list, and rainbow servant doesn't add cleric spells to the character's spell list, just makes them an option to learn. Warmage (and beguiler and dread necromancer) must use methods other than their class' learning mechanic to learn spells that are not on their spell list.

I agree that Rainbow Servant does not add cleric spells to the Warmage list. I think we disagree about what the 'ability to learn cleric spells' means. I'm interpreting the meaning as: "A 10th-level rainbow servant can learn[by base class mechanics] and cast[by base class mechanics] spells from the cleric list..." since all other definitions of how to learn or cast are external to a <base class>/Rainbow Servant combination. Restated the way that a Rainbow Servant "can learn" should not be dependent on which other rules (such as Extra Spell) are in play and the ability to learn is absolute. Given this 'by base class mechanics' is not an optional interpretation---Rainbow Servant changes the rules of the base class in whatever way is necessary to achieve 'can learn'. Generally, we should consider minimal changes to the base class mechanics, so something like: "When a warmage gains access to a new level of spells, he automatically knows all the spells for that level listed on the [cleric or] warmage's spell list." Formally, cleric spells are not added to the warmage's spell list, but they are added to the suite of spells that can be learned, and hence known and cast.

Incidentally, Zombulian's point about Sha'ir is a good one. For a Sha'ir you need learn, retrieve, and cast not just learn and cast so a Sha'ir/RS 10 is missing the retrieve step.

[Grim Reader]

Whether rainbow servant is a 10/10 or a 6/10 has nothing to do with this thread. This thread is solely about whether or not rainbow servant's capstone adds all cleric spells to your spell list, which it doesn't explicitly say it does.

Well, I thought I'd add it. I've seen it a few places taken for granted that RS is 10/10. If we are on the subject of things we doubt about the RS, it seemed opportune to point out that the assumption that its 10/10 was settled by a comment slightly less official than a Sage Advice or FAQ column.

[fire_insideout]

Why not just let the DM at the particular table decide how to handle it instead of throwing insults at each other over the internet?

[Segev]

Can you find anything that articulates a distinction between your spell list and the list of spells you can learn?The Warmage doesn't learn everything on "his spell list" automatically when he levels. The Warmage's text states that he learns everything on "the Warmage spell list." Now, you could argue that the cleric spell list is on the CHARACTER's spell list (which would actually let him use spell completion and spell trigger items of cleric spells, contrary to my prior post). But it doesn't say that it adds the cleric list to the class list. It says it allows the character to learn spells from the cleric list. So the character now has a personal class spell list of Warmage + Cleric spells. But his class only lets him automatically learn all Warmage spells. He could certainly use Advanced Learning to learn them, if they meet the non-class-restrictions of that feature and are on the cleric list.


Also, this sounds like the line of argument from the Knowstone thread that ends up making it impossible to expand the spell list of any individual character.
Not at all. The character's spell list is expanded (and I therefore retract my comments about being unable to use spell trigger items of cleric spells). And Rainbow Servant even comes right out and says that the character can CAST the cleric spells he knows, even if they're not on any of his other class lists. This neatly covers the main problem with Knowstones being UMD'd: that even though you now know the spell, you lack spell slots of the appropriate type to cast it.

If Rainbow Servant said that it added cleric spells to the class list for whatever class the Servant is advancing with this PrC, then it would indeed add every cleric list to the warmage's known list. But as it only grants the ability to learn cleric spells, but doesn't say it adds them to the warmage list, the warmage natural advancement doesn't automatically add every cleric spell.

[Hackulator]

Why not just let the DM at the particular table decide how to handle it instead of throwing insults at each other over the internet?

because the people on the forum don't seem to actually play D&D so much as create characters no sane DM would ever let them play and then furiously......pat themselves on the back about them

[Segev]

More accurately because people come here and ask what the rules are. Of course a DM can rule however he likes, but it's nice for most DMs to know if they're house ruling, and it also can provide clarity when the DM isn't sure how to even begin to read it.

[Hackulator]

More accurately because people come here and ask what the rules are. Of course a DM can rule however he likes, but it's nice for most DMs to know if they're house ruling, and it also can provide clarity when the DM isn't sure how to even begin to read it.

When you're dealing with people going out of their way to break the game the way it is done here, there will be many rules situations that are not clear because the developers did not think of every possible interaction. Also, in literally every edition of D&D there are multiple places where it says "The DM decides how things work" so that is RAW.

[fire_insideout]

More accurately because people come here and ask what the rules are. Of course a DM can rule however he likes, but it's nice for most DMs to know if they're house ruling, and it also can provide clarity when the DM isn't sure how to even begin to read it.

Absolutely, and I think it's great that there is a place like this where you can actually get answers.

However, it's quite clear that after around 2 posts this thread had devolved into a shouting match around an issue which needs to be clarified at each table due to the unclear text. I'm just curious why threads like this are so popular since they resolve nothing.

[Zombulian]

I agree that Rainbow Servant does not add cleric spells to the Warmage list. I think we disagree about what the 'ability to learn cleric spells' means. I'm interpreting the meaning as: "A 10th-level rainbow servant can learn[by base class mechanics] and cast[by base class mechanics] spells from the cleric list..." since all other definitions of how to learn or cast are external to a <base class>/Rainbow Servant combination. Restated the way that a Rainbow Servant "can learn" should not be dependent on which other rules (such as Extra Spell) are in play and the ability to learn is absolute. Given this 'by base class mechanics' is not an optional interpretation---Rainbow Servant changes the rules of the base class in whatever way is necessary to achieve 'can learn'. Generally, we should consider minimal changes to the base class mechanics, so something like: "When a warmage gains access to a new level of spells, he automatically knows all the spells for that level listed on the [cleric or] warmage's spell list." Formally, cleric spells are not added to the warmage's spell list, but they are added to the suite of spells that can be learned, and hence known and cast.

Incidentally, Zombulian's point about Sha'ir is a good one. For a Sha'ir you need learn, retrieve, and cast not just learn and cast so a Sha'ir/RS 10 is missing the retrieve step.

That is indeed the most reasonable interpretation, but not the most RAWsonable. I've already stated that I would not begrudge a DM for ruling in that way, I just don't think the text supports it. Now, is taking poorly worded rules for a game very seriously pointless? Mostly. But that's what we do here.

[zergling.exe]

Absolutely, and I think it's great that there is a place like this where you can actually get answers.

However, it's quite clear that after around 2 posts this thread had devolved into a shouting match around an issue which needs to be clarified at each table due to the unclear text. I'm just curious why threads like this are so popular since they resolve nothing.

Actually, after 2 posts the only thing that had come out was Beheld claiming I knew of some rules from CD and failing to provide them when asked. I still have no idea what they were referring to.

[Cosi]

the feat Arcane Disciple has the explicit text of "adding these spells to your class list" well, paraphrased at least. And the Jaunter PrC's caster adaptation has the same wording, though that example somehow seems weak, maybe because it's a PrC from a fairly obscure adventure module. I'll need to keep digging.

Wyrm wizard allows you to research a spell and add it to your class spell list, however it doesn't actually say that you know it yet. A wizard would still have to scribe it separately into their spell book.

Knowstones add a spell directly to your spells known. Any class can always casts spells that they know provided that they have a slot of the appropriate level (for spontaneous) or have it prepared (for prepared).

Rainbow servant says that you can learn and cast all cleric spells. It neither says that they are added to your spell list or that they become known, just that you can learn and cast them.

That doesn't prove what you want it to. My claim is that "your spell list" is simply "the spells you can learn and cast", and if something gives you the ability to learn and cast spells, it adds them to your spell list. The claims you're advancing are akin to saying that the feats you've "gained" and the feats you've "taken" can't both be referred to as the feats you "have" because gain and take are different words.


I do just find it delicious that you make accusations about someone not arguing in good faith while making ad hominem attacks and not providing an in-text basis for your argument.

The burden of proof is on you to prove that there is some difference between "your spell list" and "the spells you can learn and cast". It's like arguing that "Fighter Bonus Feats" and "the Feats a Fighter can take with his bonus feats" are different things.


I don't think this can be correct. It would mean that any spell you know and can cast automatically becomes part of your spell list. But there are a number of ways to add spells known that doesn't automatically go on your list, isn't there?

There is certainly a difference between your spell list (the spells you can learn) and your spells known (the spells you have learned). That doesn't imply that there are spells you can learn which aren't on your spell list.


The Warmage doesn't learn everything on "his spell list" automatically when he levels. The Warmage's text states that he learns everything on "the Warmage spell list."

There's a quote that establishes the equivalence between the Warmage's spells known and the Warmage's spell list. Therefore if you add something to the Warmage's spell list, you add it to her spells known.


When you're dealing with people going out of their way to break the game the way it is done here, there will be many rules situations that are not clear because the developers did not think of every possible interaction. Also, in literally every edition of D&D there are multiple places where it says "The DM decides how things work" so that is RAW.

Yes, and that's terrible. Figuring out what the rules of this game say is an important first step towards new games having rules that say only and exactly the things we want them to. What's more, "the DM wings it" is terrible for the game because it means that there is no game. If your table has 6/10 Rainbow Servants, and my table has 10/10 Rainbow Servants, and Segev's table has 10/10 Rainbow Servants (but no Rainbow Warsnakes), and Psyren's table has no Rainbow Servants (but a Warmage Archetype that gives incremental Cleric spell access), I can't take my Warmage/Rainbow Servant character and join someone else's campaign.

The reason to have rules at all is to have those rules be the same from table to table.

[zergling.exe]

That doesn't prove what you want it to. My claim is that "your spell list" is simply "the spells you can learn and cast", and if something gives you the ability to learn and cast spells, it adds them to your spell list. The claims you're advancing are akin to saying that the feats you've "gained" and the feats you've "taken" can't both be referred to as the feats you "have" because gain and take are different words.

The burden of proof is on you to prove that there is some difference between "your spell list" and "the spells you can learn and cast". It's like arguing that "Fighter Bonus Feats" and "the Feats a Fighter can take with his bonus feats" are different things.

Your spell list includes spells you can learn and cast as well as spells you can cast from wands/scrolls/etc. without having to UMD. Just because 99% of the time they are equivalent does not mean that they always are. At no point did RAW actually say that they are identical, just that you can learn and cast any spells on your spell list. It never said the opposite, that any spell you can learn and cast is on your spell list.


There's a quote that establishes the equivalence between the Warmage's spells known and the Warmage's spell list. Therefore if you add something to the Warmage's spell list, you add it to her spells known.

And something that was brought up earlier comes into play about cutting out important parts of the quote. That quote:
Essentially, his spell list is the same as his spells known list.
Bolding mine. Essentially, the warmages spell list is their spells known. Essentially=/=that it is equivalent. They might as well be, but are not actually. Because warmages can add spells known that aren't on their spell list, they can't be equivalent.

For example, use a knowstone, and now you know the spell, but it's not on your spell list.

[Cosi]

It never said the opposite, that any spell you can learn and cast is on your spell list.

It never had to. Just like it never had to say that "Fighters Bonus Feats" and "feats you can take with your 'Bonus Feat' class feature as a Fighter" are indentical.


Bolding mine. Essentially, the warmages spell list is their spells known. Essentially=/=that it is equivalent. They might as well be, but are not actually. Because warmages can add spells known that aren't on their spell list, they can't be equivalent.

Google informs me the definition of "essentially" is:


used to emphasize the basic, fundamental, or intrinsic nature of a person, thing, or situation.

It seems to me that the English meaning of that sentence is "Warmage Spells Known == Warmage Spell List". Is the word "essentially" defined differently in some rulebook I'm not aware of?


For example, use a knowstone, and now you know the spell, but it's not on your spell list.

If you're using a Knowstone either the spell is on your spell list or you have emulated "have the spell on your spell list" at no point are you casting without the spell on your list.

Also, at least some people in this thread believe Knowstones don't work for this exact reason.

[Dagroth]

1) If a Warmage can add spells to their spells known, then Warmages are inherently not limited to the Warmage spell list.

This is why the word "essentially" is used.


2) The Rainbow Servant says right in the class description that when you reach level 10 in the class you can use Scrolls, Wands & Staffs that have Cleric spells in them.


3) I am of the school that says Rainbow Servant is only a 6/10 casting advancement class. Given that, the ability to add all Cleric Spells to your Known Spells list is a powerful enough bonus to make up for the lost casting advancement.


4) The various printings/readings of what +1 to (type) spellcasting class are stupid and confusing. Anyone with any logic in their head should read this as simply advancing the character's base spellcasting class on both the "spells per day" and "spells known (using whatever mechanic the class uses to learn new spells at each level-up)" charts for that base spellcasting class.

[Segev]

There's a quote that establishes the equivalence between the Warmage's spells known and the Warmage's spell list. Therefore if you add something to the Warmage's spell list, you add it to her spells known.

No, not "that Warmage's spell list."

"The Warmage Spell List."

Two different things. Guaranteedly so once "that Warmage" has Advanced Learning.

"The Warmage Spell List" is a list of spells that appears in Complete Arcane.

"That Warmage's Spell List" is the list of all spells that particular Warmage knows or could choose to learn via the standard mechanisms for learning spells as a Warmage. Unfortunately for him, Warmages don't have a means of learning spells not on the Warmage Spell List, even if those spells are on That Warmage's Spell List. Except Advanced Learning, which has its own rules about what you can learn through it (exception-based rule). Fortunately for him, it still means he can use spell completion and spell trigger items for spells on "That Warmage's Spell List!" And, if he found a way to learn new spells that relied on his personal "class list," he could choose cleric spells as valid options. (All of this assumes he's reached RS 10)

[zergling.exe]

It never had to. Just like it never had to say that "Fighters Bonus Feats" and "feats you can take with your 'Bonus Feat' class feature as a Fighter" are indentical.

In the base rules it didn't need to establish that, but as the rules expanded, it was something that probably should have been said if it is true. There is not a "list of fighter bonus feats" in the rules anyway. Every feat that you can take with it has Special text that tells you can take it using those bonus feats. While spells are condensed into lists by which class can learn them. It's more akin to regular feats than bonus feats.


Google informs me the definition of "essentially" is:

It seems to me that the English meaning of that sentence is "Warmage Spells Known == Warmage Spell List". Is the word "essentially" defined differently in some rulebook I'm not aware of?

Every time I've heard essentially used, it establishes that these two different things are mostly the same but are not. If I am essentially an idiot for missing the point, that doesn't mean that I am an idiot. It just means I missed the point. Crimson is essentially red, but red is not crimson is a similar example. Crimson (spells you can learn and cast) is more specific than red (spells on your spell list).


If you're using a Knowstone either the spell is on your spell list or you have emulated "have the spell on your spell list" at no point are you casting without the spell on your list.

Also, at least some people in this thread believe Knowstones don't work for this exact reason.

Yes, but what you are arguing would mean that the knowstone would add the spell to your spell list after you UMD it. Not temporarily, but permanently since now you know the spell.

[Cosi]

In the base rules it didn't need to establish that, but as the rules expanded, it was something that probably should have been said if it is true.

Why should they have to specify if it was true? If it was true in the base game, shouldn't the have had to specify when it became false?


Yes, but what you are arguing would mean that the knowstone would add the spell to your spell list after you UMD it. Not temporarily, but permanently since now you know the spell.

No. To use a Knowstone you have to provide:

1. A spell list with the spell on it.
2. A spell slot of the level the spell in the knowstone appears on the list you provided.

If you UMD 1, the activation of the Knowstone is treated as if you had that list. You don't have to add anything, because you already "have" it. Also, the Knowstone doesn't have an ongoing effect -- it has an effect during the casting of the spell.

[zergling.exe]

Why should they have to specify if it was true? If it was true in the base game, shouldn't the have had to specify when it became false?

No. To use a Knowstone you have to provide:

1. A spell list with the spell on it.
2. A spell slot of the level the spell in the knowstone appears on the list you provided.

If you UMD 1, the activation of the Knowstone is treated as if you had that list. You don't have to add anything, because you already "have" it. Also, the Knowstone doesn't have an ongoing effect -- it has an effect during the casting of the spell.

It could just be true by happenstance, that's why you need to specify it. 3.5 is a game that tells you what's true and what you can do, when it is silent it can be assumed that it's not true.

I'm going to drop the knowstone argument, since I have little knowledge on them and they appear to work differently than I thought.

Also, no response to this?

Every time I've heard essentially used, it establishes that these two different things are mostly the same but are not. If I am essentially an idiot for missing the point, that doesn't mean that I am an idiot. It just means I missed the point. Crimson is essentially red, but red is not crimson is a similar example. Crimson (spells you can learn and cast) is more specific than red (spells on your spell list).

[Cosi]

It could just be true by happenstance, that's why you need to specify it. 3.5 is a game that tells you what's true and what you can do, when it is silent it can be assumed that it's not true.

We're not talking about a rule, we've talking about an equivalence. If your spell list is "the spells you can learn and cast", and something gives you new spells you can learn and cast, it has to explicitly say it is not adding to your spell list.


Also, no response to this?

I cited the dictionary. You cited personal experience. I'm pretty sure I know which of those is authoritative in determining the definition of words.

[zergling.exe]

We're not talking about a rule, we've talking about an equivalence. If your spell list is "the spells you can learn and cast", and something gives you new spells you can learn and cast, it has to explicitly say it is not adding to your spell list.

Except most things work the other way, adding spells to your spell list rather than saying you "can learn and cast" them. Rainbow servant is actually fairly unique in that aspect, how many other things specify "learn and cast" rather than spell list?


I cited the dictionary. You cited personal experience. I'm pretty sure I know which of those is authoritative in determining the definition of words.

Well the basic nature of something is not the same as the complicated nature of it. So while a circuit is essentially a channel, it is not actually a channel as it is far more complex. I suppose that's where my personal experience differs, I recognize that it's talking about basic links by default and know that there are more complex ones that are different between them. edit: Otherwise there would be no point to the word essentially, they would just use equivalent instead as it would mean the same thing.

So the common link is that a warmage automatically knows all the spells on their spell list, and the complex difference is that they can know spells not on their spell list.

[Dagroth]

Except most things work the other way, adding spells to your spell list rather than saying you "can learn and cast" them. Rainbow servant is actually fairly unique in that aspect, how many other things specify "learn and cast" rather than spell list?

Well, Sand Shaper says this:

As a member of this class, you gain knowledge of additional spells (see the list below). If you were a caster who previously prepared spells (such as a wizard), you can prepare these spells like any other spell to which you have access. If you are a spontaneous caster (such as a sorcerer), these spells are available to you like any other spell you know.

So there's that...

Edit: And Sand Shaper is a 8/10 spell casting progression class that gives a bunch of spells and special abilities... making the argument that Rainbow Servant should be a 6/10 progression and give the Cleric spell list.

[Cosi]

Except most things work the other way, adding spells to your spell list rather than saying you "can learn and cast" them. Rainbow servant is actually fairly unique in that aspect, how many other things specify "learn and cast" rather than spell list?

I dunno. How many things say "gain" versus "get"? Do you think that's important too?

[zergling.exe]

Well, Sand Shaper says this:


So there's that...

Edit: And Sand Shaper is a 8/10 spell casting progression class that gives a bunch of spells and special abilities... making the argument that Rainbow Servant should be a 6/10 progression and give the Cleric spell list.

Sand shaper specifies that they are spells known, not spells that you have the option of learning if you want. Seems a pretty big difference to me.


I dunno. How many things say "gain" versus "get"? Do you think that's important too?

Not as substantial a difference. Both of those involving "having" whatever it is after you "gain" or "get" it. Being able to learn a spell isn't explicitly the same as it being on your spell list, as evidenced by 99% of things saying that they are added to your list rather than that you can learn them. It being on your list is explicit in that you can learn it already, so why make a distinction if it doesn't actually add them to your list? Even more damning is that it specifically calls out allowing you to use scrolls, wands and staves without having to UMD them if they contain cleric spells. Isn't that more evidence that they are not added to your spell list?

[Anthrowhale]

That is indeed the most reasonable interpretation, but not the most RAWsonable.
I'm not seeing that yet. Rainbow Servant says:

A 10th-level rainbow servant can learn ... spells from the cleric list...
It seems like people are somehow concluding that a Warmage/Rainbow Servant 10 cannot learn spells from the cleric list, which is a direct contradiction of RAW.

[Cosi]

Being able to learn a spell isn't explicitly the same as it being on your spell list, as evidenced by 99% of things saying that they are added to your list rather than that you can learn them.

That's not how evidence works.


It being on your list is explicit in that you can learn it already, so why make a distinction if it doesn't actually add them to your list?

Because D&D is not written in a fully precise language.


Even more damning is that it specifically calls out allowing you to use scrolls, wands and staves without having to UMD them if they contain cleric spells. Isn't that more evidence that they are not added to your spell list?

No. Consider bonus feats. The default rule for bonus feats is either "you must meet the prerequisites to take bonus feats" or "you don't have to meet the prerequisites to take bonus feats". There is some controversy over which is the case, but it necessarily must be one of those two things. But the PHB includes examples of bonus feats which explicitly state both ways (Monks explicitly say "don't need to", Fighters explicitly say "need to"). One of those is explicitly listing something that is implicit in the definition of a bonus feat.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Actually, after 2 posts the only thing that had come out was Beheld claiming I knew of some rules from CD and failing to provide them when asked. I still have no idea what they were referring to.
I'm... guessing they meant the "Extra Domains" section?


If the noncleric is a spontaneous caster like a sorcerer or favored soul, then she may select a domain spell to add to her spells known whenever she would have an option to choose a new known spell. A sorcerer does not get to exceed his normal limit of spells known.
Which is... interesting (it sounds like you'd automatically get the domain spells every time you get a new spell level, but not retroactively), but doesn't seem directly relevant?

Cleric Spell Access: A 10th-level rainbow servant can learn and cast spells from the cleric list, even if they don’t appear on the lists of any spellcasting class he has.

When a warmage gains access to a new level of spells, he automatically knows all the spells for that level listed on the warmage’s spell list.
It seems to me that there are three reasonable interpretations:

The Pedantic-- The Warmage can't benefit at all, because they can only learn spells from explicit lists-- the Warmage list (when they level up) or the Sorcerer/Wizard list (via Advanced Learning). The Cleric list is a nebulous option they can't actually use.
The Strict-- The Warmage can learn Cleric spells; when they level up, they automatically learn all available spells of that level. You don't get retroactive spell access, but you do get higher level stuff.
The Sane*-- The Rainbow Servant lets you access Cleric spells in whatever fashion you normally access spells. Warmages normally access their entire spell list. Therefore, they access the entire Cleric list.

There's a solid case for any of the above, but-- given that CDiv came out months before CArc, and the interaction was never really looked at-- trying to decide between them seems like the sort of exercise in unintentional-RAW-pedantry that makes prospective DMs sigh. Still, the ambuguity is a good catch; it's certainly worth throwing an "ask your DM" on the trick when it's recommended in the future, though.

(For the record, I think The Pedantic is the most RAW-accurate, but it's the same sort of obviously-an-oversight as drown healing and Monks not being proficient in unarmed strikes. Correcting for that stupidity gives you The Strict, and a non-computer-based reading gives you The Sane.)


*In terms of "reading like a human being and not a computer," at least. Power-wise it's another story, but it's not like any of early 3.5 was written with a sane view on game balance, so <shrug>

[zergling.exe]

I'm not seeing that yet. Rainbow Servant says:

It seems like people are somehow concluding that a Warmage/Rainbow Servant 10 cannot learn spells from the cleric list, which is a direct contradiction of RAW.

The reason that warmage can't learn spells from the cleric spell list is that they have no method to learn spells not on their list in-class aside from expanded spell knowledge, which is for wizard evocation spells only. Taking extra spell allows them to learn the cleric spells.


That's not how evidence works.

Consistently applying the rules however is how that works. Everything else specifies that it adds it to your list, and since this doesn't it must not. It even gives the main features of adding to your spell list (learning, casting, and scrolls/wands/staves) but doesn't tell you to add them.


Because D&D is not written in a fully precise language.

But it is written fairly consistently when talking about adding spells to your spell list.


No. Consider bonus feats. The default rule for bonus feats is either "you must meet the prerequisites to take bonus feats" or "you don't have to meet the prerequisites to take bonus feats". There is some controversy over which is the case, but it necessarily must be one of those two things. But the PHB includes examples of bonus feats which explicitly state both ways (Monks explicitly say "don't need to", Fighters explicitly say "need to"). One of those is explicitly listing something that is implicit in the definition of a bonus feat.

Neither wyrm wizard nor sand shaper specify that the added spells are able to be used off scrolls/wands/staves. Again consistency. Rainbow servant is the ONLY one that makes the distinction, which has to mean that it doesn't add the spells to your spell list.

Bonus feats have no general rules for whether or not you need to meet prerequisites, none are laid out anywhere.

[Zombulian]

I'm... guessing they meant the "Extra Domains" section?


Which is... interesting (it sounds like you'd automatically get the domain spells every time you get a new spell level, but not retroactively), but doesn't seem directly relevant?


It seems to me that there are three reasonable interpretations:

The Pedantic-- The Warmage can't benefit at all, because they can only learn spells from explicit lists-- the Warmage list (when they level up) or the Sorcerer/Wizard list (via Advanced Learning). The Cleric list is a nebulous option they can't actually use.
The Strict-- The Warmage can learn Cleric spells; when they level up, they automatically learn all available spells of that level. You don't get retroactive spell access, but you do get higher level stuff.
The Sane*-- The Rainbow Servant lets you access Cleric spells in whatever fashion you normally access spells. Warmages normally access their entire spell list. Therefore, they access the entire Cleric list.

There's a solid case for any of the above, but-- given that CDiv came out months before CArc, and the interaction was never really looked at-- trying to decide between them seems like the sort of exercise in unintentional-RAW-pedantry that makes prospective DMs sigh. Still, the ambuguity is a good catch; it's certainly worth throwing an "ask your DM" on the trick when it's recommended in the future, though.

(For the record, I think The Pedantic is the most RAW-accurate, but it's the same sort of obviously-an-oversight as drown healing and Monks not being proficient in unarmed strikes. Correcting for that stupidity gives you The Strict, and a non-computer-based reading gives you The Sane.)


*In terms of "reading like a human being and not a computer," at least. Power-wise it's another story, but it's not like any of early 3.5 was written with a sane view on game balance, so <shrug>

This is essentially my opinion, though I appreciate the addition of the strict position.
This argument is essentially over, as it's become a question between RAW and reason, which never goes anywhere.

[Anthrowhale]

The reason that warmage can't learn spells from the cleric spell list
I'm not buying it. Rainbow Servant 10 directly contradicts saying you can learn spells. The exact method is not specified so I can easily imagine filling in different choices, but some method must exist. Asserting that method is some feat written months later is unconvincing to me.

Anyways, I think there are 3 things as the DM about for RS:

Is it 6/10 or 10/10 casting? Text vs. table and language vs. language.
How "can" it learn cleric spells at level 10?
Spells known advance? (RAW says maybe) Does caster level advance? (RAW says no)

[happycube]

Depending on how you treat the FAQ with regards to rules arguments such as this, its comment on the matter may be useful:

Page 29 provides a ruling that "if a warmage takes ten levels of rainbow servant, he adds all of the spells from the cleric spell list to his own spell list and can choose from all of them when he casts spells."

How one chooses to treat the FAQ (rules or not, etc.) will no doubt differ between individuals, and the matter is ultimately up to a given DM's discretion, but the statement exists nonetheless.

[Zombulian]

Depending on how you treat the FAQ with regards to rules arguments such as this, its comment on the matter may be useful:

Page 29 provides a ruling that "if a warmage takes ten levels of rainbow servant, he adds all of the spells from the cleric spell list to his own spell list and can choose from all of them when he casts spells."

How one chooses to treat the FAQ (rules or not, etc.) will no doubt differ between individuals, and the matter is ultimately up to a given DM's discretion, but the statement exists nonetheless.

Very useful contribution, thanks very much! Good to know WotC had to at least consider this dilemma, regardless of the perceived validity of the FAQ.

[animewatcha]

Unfortunately, what is left of the WOTC archive doesn't have the rainbow warmage answer. However, the internet archive was able to save it.

https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20090603011249/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ask/20080508a

adn the 6/10 vs 10/10

https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20090603010824/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ask/20080429a

sidenote: Hillary could take lessons from WOTC on eviscerating 4th edition off their website and other sources. DAMN even internet archive has trouble with records on it due to wizards robots txt or something. that and the D&D insider subscription thing. DAMN!!!!

[schreier]

Unfortunately, what is left of the WOTC archive doesn't have the rainbow warmage answer. However, the internet archive was able to save it.

https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20090603011249/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ask/20080508a

adn the 6/10 vs 10/10

https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20090603010824/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ask/20080429a

sidenote: Hillary could take lessons from WOTC on eviscerating 4th edition off their website and other sources. DAMN even internet archive has trouble with records on it due to wizards robots txt or something. that and the D&D insider subscription thing. DAMN!!!!

It's actually here:
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20070731a

[animewatcha]

Within the FAQ, which is shotty at best. Atleast at those links, there is the original answer from them

[zergling.exe]

I'm not buying it. Rainbow Servant 10 directly contradicts saying you can learn spells. The exact method is not specified so I can easily imagine filling in different choices, but some method must exist. Asserting that method is some feat written months later is unconvincing to me.

Anyways, I think there are 3 things as the DM about for RS:

Is it 6/10 or 10/10 casting? Text vs. table and language vs. language.
How "can" it learn cleric spells at level 10?
Spells known advance? (RAW says maybe) Does caster level advance? (RAW says no)


Except the warmage also didn't exist until months later, and came with the same book as extra spell! There was literally no problem with the wording when released, as all classes that existed at the time had methods of learning that weren't dependent on strictly their spell list (since specific trumps general of it having to be on your spell list to learn), and the ability gave all the necessary bits of having them on your spell list.

[Anthrowhale]

Except the warmage also didn't exist until months later, and came with the same book as extra spell! There was literally no problem with the wording when released, as all classes that existed at the time had methods of learning that weren't dependent on strictly their spell list (since specific trumps general of it having to be on your spell list to learn), and the ability gave all the necessary bits of having them on your spell list.

Amazon says that the Warmage came out 7 months before Rainbow Servant in the Miniatures Handbook. It was reprinted with minor changes in Complete Arcane 6 months later.

Extra Spell apparently existed in 3.0 and was first reprinted in 3.5 form in Complete Arcane.

So, the claim you are making is that the 'can learn' was satisfied by 3.0 material for a period of 6 months. It's difficult to refute that because the way that 'can learn' is satisfied is fundamentally unspecified and up to DM interpretation. The advantage of this approach is that it relies on no rules exceptions. The disadvantage is that (1) during the 6 month gap it relied on 3.0 material subject to DM revision and (2) it relies on something external to Warmage and RS to resolve a capability given by RS. W.r.t. the last point, a hypothetical Vermin Warmage/RS has no access to feats so you would need to find another interpretation to satisfy the 'can learn' imperative.

[Segev]

It seems like people are somehow concluding that a Warmage/Rainbow Servant 10 cannot learn spells from the cleric list, which is a direct contradiction of RAW.I was going to say that I haven't seen anybody quite make that claim, then saw somebody quoting zergling.exe using those words. So instead, I'll say this: a Warmage/Rainbow Servant 10 may absolutely learn cleric spells...if he has a means of learning spells that does not strictly specify what spells he may learn by that technique.

Unfortunately, Advanced Learning specifies things narrowly enough that Rainbow Servant's granting of access to the Cleric list is questionable (but not impossible!) for it to work. Certainly, the means of learning spells normally - all spells on the warmage spell list for which he has warmage spell slots of a level needed to cast - does not grant him access to the Cleric list. It specifically states he learns all spells on the WARMAGE spell list. Not all spells on "his class spell list." Though, since Cleric spells are now on his class spell list, he can use spell trigger and spell completion items of Cleric spells.



It seems to me that there are three reasonable interpretations:

The Pedantic-- The Warmage can't benefit at all, because they can only learn spells from explicit lists-- the Warmage list (when they level up) or the Sorcerer/Wizard list (via Advanced Learning). The Cleric list is a nebulous option they can't actually use.
The Strict-- The Warmage can learn Cleric spells; when they level up, they automatically learn all available spells of that level. You don't get retroactive spell access, but you do get higher level stuff.
The Sane*-- The Rainbow Servant lets you access Cleric spells in whatever fashion you normally access spells. Warmages normally access their entire spell list. Therefore, they access the entire Cleric list.
Actually, I think the proper reading is that he CAN benefit, if he can find a way to "learn" a spell without explicit restrictions that are near-unique to the warmage class features. (Beguilers and Dread Necromancers do share them.)

Since Extra Spell isn't as forgiving as Extra Power, it would be an example of how one might benefit. Having opened the Cleric list to that Warmage/RS 10, Extra Spell now can grab spells off the Cleric list. (Unlike Extra Power, Extra Spell doesn't let you poach from off-class lists.)

[Anthrowhale]

So instead, I'll say this: a Warmage/Rainbow Servant 10 may absolutely learn cleric spells...if he has a means of learning spells that does not strictly specify what spells he may learn by that technique.


To me, this seems like a confusion of specific rule vs. general rule where "can learn" is the specific rule which takes precedence over the general rules for a Warmage.

The Extra Spell approach is a method for achieving "can learn" which seems a bit shaky as detailed above. Other approaches along the lines of Grod's Strict seem more direct/obvious to me.

[zergling.exe]

I was going to say that I haven't seen anybody quite make that claim, then saw somebody quoting zergling.exe using those words. So instead, I'll say this: a Warmage/Rainbow Servant 10 may absolutely learn cleric spells...if he has a means of learning spells that does not strictly specify what spells he may learn by that technique.

I never implied that, if you are referring to this post:

The reason that warmage can't learn spells from the cleric spell listI'm not buying it. Rainbow Servant 10 directly contradicts saying you can learn spells. The exact method is not specified so I can easily imagine filling in different choices, but some method must exist. Asserting that method is some feat written months later is unconvincing to me.

Anyways, I think there are 3 things as the DM about for RS:

Is it 6/10 or 10/10 casting? Text vs. table and language vs. language.
How "can" it learn cleric spells at level 10?
Spells known advance? (RAW says maybe) Does caster level advance? (RAW says no)

Then I can provide the full quote for that which includes text proving that I didn't said a warmage couldn't learn the cleric spells, just that they have no in-class method of learning them:
The reason that warmage can't learn spells from the cleric spell list is that they have no method to learn spells not on their list in-class aside from expanded spell knowledge, which is for wizard evocation spells only. Taking extra spell allows them to learn the cleric spells.
Bolded is what Anthrowhale cut out to make it seem like I was saying warmages can't learn cleric spells.

[Anthrowhale]

Bolded is what Anthrowhale cut out to make it seem like I was saying warmages can't learn cleric spells.

Sorry, I'm not trying to mischaracterize: I was primarily trying to emphasize what I find objectionable. I think we are in agreement now that 'can learn' must be resolved and that it's mechanism of resolution is ambiguous (although probably not in agreement on the preferred choice of resolution).

[zergling.exe]

Sorry, I'm not trying to mischaracterize: I was primarily trying to emphasize what I find objectionable. I think we are in agreement now that 'can learn' must be resolved and that it's mechanism of resolution is ambiguous (although probably not in agreement on the preferred choice of resolution).

It's better to bold than cut when trying to emphasize. Especially since leaving off half a sentence can completely change what that sentence says. It makes it seem like you are trying to ignore key parts, especially since the rest of the sentence addresses exactly what you said. That would about sum it up though.

[daremetoidareyo]

The warmage/RS10 could use spell research rules to add cleric spells to their spells known, no?

[Segev]

I never implied that, if you are referring to this post:
Then I can provide the full quote for that which includes text proving that I didn't said a warmage couldn't learn the cleric spells, just that they have no in-class method of learning them:
Bolded is what Anthrowhale cut out to make it seem like I was saying warmages can't learn cleric spells.Ah, okay. Then I go back to my original assertion that nobody was suggesting that.


To me, this seems like a confusion of specific rule vs. general rule where "can learn" is the specific rule which takes precedence over the general rules for a Warmage. Not quite. The general rule is that you can only learn spells from your class list.

There is no "general" rule for how a spellcaster learns new spells; this differs for each class. In fact, clerics and druids "know" every spell on their class lists automatically (but must prepare from their known spells the way a wizard does).

There is a specific rule in RS 10 that allows an arcane caster who has obtained this class feature to learn spells on the cleric list despite their class not normally allowing this. This overrides the general rule that you can only learn spells from your class list.

Unfortunately, Warmage's specific rule for how they learn spells comes in two forms: One expressly makes them learn every spell on "the Warmage list" as they level up to the point they can cast spells of the appropriate level; the other specifies a particular sub-list of spells from which they select the spells they learn via it. Both therefore are specific and have specific limits that don't permit them general access to any spell on their PERSONAL "class list."


The Extra Spell approach is a method for achieving "can learn" which seems a bit shaky as detailed above. Other approaches along the lines of Grod's Strict seem more direct/obvious to me.No, Extra Spell works because it provides a means to learn any spell on your personally-accessible list, which is what Warmage lacked a mechanism to permit.


The warmage/RS10 could use spell research rules to add cleric spells to their spells known, no?This would also work, being a general rule that is not overridden. Though I think spell research rules can already bypass class list restrictions, because you're technically researching a "[class] version" of the spell. So a wizard using spell research rules to learn cure light wounds would be researching a Wizard version of the spell. A Warmage researching a Cleric spell is similarly developing a Warmage version of the spell. He then automatically knows it (and, arguably, all Warmages automatically know it) as it's on the Warmage list.

Spell research rules only permit prepared casters, currently, to "add" spells to their spells known. Even sorcerers who use spell research have to expend their class-granted spells-known slots on them. (If they didn't, sorcerers would suddenly have a means of transforming gp into spells known, which would be pretty impressive for them given their one true weakness is that limited number of known spells!)

[Anthrowhale]

There is no "general" rule for how a spellcaster learns new spells; this differs for each class.



In fact, clerics and druids "know" every spell on their class lists automatically (but must prepare from their known spells the way a wizard does).

This is wrong---Clerics and Druids never "know" their spells---that language is never used there. The PHB glossary says:

A spell that an arcane spellcaster has learned and can prepare. For wizards, knowing a spell means having it in their spellbooks. For sorcerers and bards, knowing a spell means having selected it when acquiring new spells as a benefit of level advancement.



There is a specific rule in RS 10 that allows an arcane caster who has obtained this class feature to learn spells on the cleric list despite their class not normally allowing this. This overrides the general rule that you can only learn spells from your class list.

Agreed.


Unfortunately, Warmage's specific rule for how they learn spells comes in two forms: One expressly makes them learn every spell on "the Warmage list" as they level up to the point they can cast spells of the appropriate level; the other specifies a particular sub-list of spells from which they select the spells they learn via it. Both therefore are specific and have specific limits that don't permit them general access to any spell on their PERSONAL "class list."

I agree that the general Warmage learning mechanism does not allow learning cleric spells.


No, Extra Spell works because it provides a means to learn any spell on your personally-accessible list, which is what Warmage lacked a mechanism to permit.

I'm not sure what you 'no' here. The shakiness? The shakiness exists because you are using extraneous rules to resolve 'can learn'. If Extra Spell did not exist (as it did not for 6 months after Complete Divine came out), do you agree that some other mechanism for satisfying 'can learn' must be chosen? The exact manner in which 'can learn' is satisfied is unspecified so I don't see a formal basis for ruling any out, yet it seems quite odd to chose a mechanism for satisfying the rules which changes as new books with otherwise extraneous rules are released. That is the shakiness.

[Segev]

I'm not sure what you 'no' here. The shakiness? The shakiness exists because you are using extraneous rules to resolve 'can learn'. If Extra Spell did not exist (as it did not for 6 months after Complete Divine came out), do you agree that some other mechanism for satisfying 'can learn' must be chosen? The exact manner in which 'can learn' is satisfied is unspecified so I don't see a formal basis for ruling any out, yet it seems quite odd to chose a mechanism for satisfying the rules which changes as new books with otherwise extraneous rules are released. That is the shakiness.

If Extra Spell did not exist, it is possible that there would be no way for a Warmage to benefit from the class feature they would get at RS 10. I'm not saying there is no other way, but I am saying that it is possible. Certainly, the Warmage class by itself provides no such mechanism. However, Extra Spell does, definitely, provide a means.

So no, no shakiness.

[Anthrowhale]

If Extra Spell did not exist, it is possible that there would be no way for a Warmage to benefit from the class feature they would get at RS 10...

This I disagree with by RAW. A Warmage can cast any spell that it knows and "can learn" means that a way must exist to learn even if this is by creating a specific exception for general Warmages.

(For Sha'ir I would agree btw, because they can learn but cannot retrieve cleric-only spells.)