Optimizing swashbuckler bladesinger

[Night Eternal]

hi guys

I'm a swashbuckler 3 lvl / 2lvl bladesinger wizard in a power campaign. I'm filling in the roles of rogue and the tank. I duel wield scimitars my ac is 18 normally until i blade sing which is then 22. With green flame blade i do 4d6+ 5 with my sneak attack :)

Im trying to figure out what to do with my character. I like being a tank and i like dealing damage. My original thought was to go 6 rogue and 14 blade singer. but this was just for 14th skill where i can add my int to each melee attack. But i dont use most of my spell becuase i prefer attacking. I choose mostly spells that buff. So i plan on getting mirage image and haste,fireshield, blur maybe. But there isn't many spells which foucs on enhancing melee combat. Most of them that are there concentration.

So now i'm looking into other option to make me a better tank/ melee fighter. So thoughts :)

[Specter]

Green-Flame Blade deals d8 damage, just to clarify.

You want to get your hands on War Caster as soon as possible. That way you'll be able to cast Shield while having two weapons, pumping your AC to 27. The advantage in concentration and opportunity attacks with Green-Flame make it gold too.

[dejarnjc]

So now i'm looking into other option to make me a better tank/ melee fighter. So thoughts :)


Honestly, I'm not sure you're the right class/multi-class for this. I can definitely say that pumping levels into wizard would not be "optimal" to achieve this goal.

Wizards are not designed to be putting out melee damage and aren't really designed to tank.
Rogues can take a hit but aren't designed to "tank" either. They also function very well as a hit and run class which isn't very "tanky".

The best thing you could do for this build IMO is to just keep going with rogue and don't level bladesinger any more.


Alternatively you could go Bladesinger 6 and then stop. Use mirror image before a fight if you can. Haste to buff yourself and get 3 attacks.
Then you go rogue for the rest for the sneak attack damage, uncanny dodge, and evasion.

[Drackolus]

Yeah, you will want booming blade and warcaster. That combination with sneak attack (which goes off once a TURN, not round).

[Sir cryosin]

Honestly, I'm not sure you're the right class/multi-class for this. I can definitely say that pumping levels into wizard would not be "optimal" to achieve this goal.

Wizards are not designed to be putting out melee damage and aren't really designed to tank.
Rogues can take a hit but aren't designed to "tank" either. They also function very well as a hit and run class which isn't very "tanky".

The best thing you could do for this build IMO is to just keep going with rogue and don't level bladesinger any more.


Alternatively you could go Bladesinger 6 and then stop. Use mirror image before a fight if you can. Haste to buff yourself and get 3 attacks.
Then you go rogue for the rest for the sneak attack damage, uncanny dodge, and evasion.

I have tanked with a fighter 2/wizard 18. I have seen a full bladesinger melee tank. Any class with the right set up and strategy can tank.

[dejarnjc]

I have tanked with a fighter 2/wizard 18. I have seen a full bladesinger melee tank. Any class with the right set up and strategy can tank.

Not and be "optimal". OP's not asking if he can do it. He's asking how to do it best.

Also, mind you the fact that he doesn't want to use spells for damage (maybe melee cantrips) but wants to use melee attacks. Why level Wizard when all those spells will go to waste?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Two more Rogue levels for Uncanny Dodge will help your tanking nicely. You could maybe throw in Tough with that ASI for more hit points; that effectively takes Rogue up to a d12 class. Combine that with +Int to AC, easy movements, and your ability to spend reactions on halving damage (Uncanny Dodge), getting +5 AC (Shield), or gain damage resistance (Absorb Elements)... you're looking pretty good, if you ask me.

For more damage... Booming Blade, for you, is absolutely perfect-- as a Swashbuckler, you have two separate ways to stab someone with it and move away without taking AoOs. You can also look into Sentinel; not only does it make you more of a sticky-tank, it gives you more AoOs, AKA a second chance to land Sneak Attack damage.

[Night Eternal]

Thanks for all the help guys. :) yeah been trying to play a dual wielding sword mage. Tried eldritch knight. And dual wielding does not work lol. Blade singer was pretty good but wanted more melee and rogue swashbuckler given me that. Most of the other guys on the team are long distance. So i run all over the place hit a bunch of time then run to another spot where a team mates in trouble and when im attacking they run. Since my ac so high they have a hard time hitting. I save most of my spell slots for shield. Ocassionally i throw a spell to to deal damage to crowded groups. I have to ask my dm for a weapon that has smite. Lol

[Nicodiemus]

So the problem I had with swashsinger was that TWF tends to not synergize well with spellcasting in general, and GFB in particular. GFB precludes the use of your offhand attack, unless they errattad that somewhere. So it's either attack with both weapons or attack with GFB. I ended up scrapping the character because I couldn't get it to do what I wanted. Taking mobile with a bladesinger gets you the important bit, IMO

[Navigator]

I currently play an Arcane Trickster 6 / Bladesinger 2 in AL. First, if you aren't using a familiar for the help action, you should look into it. The DM will eventually smash your familiar but hey, advantage is advantage.

I've done a lot of thinking about the action economy of this setup and came to the conclusion that single weapon with melee cantrip is the most optimal way to go. Here are my reasons:

Single weapon, free hand:

Allows you pass over Warcaster feat
Barring very high AC opponents, melee cantrips will likely deal more damage than an attack routine using your bonus attack
Not using your bonus action on an attack allows you to make use of cunning action, which you can (theoretically) manipulate to get advantage every other round
You only need to worry about acquiring one good weapon


Two-weapons, no free hand:

Overall less, but more consistent damage
More melee presence


Regardless of action economy, I'd urge you to consider taking Bladesinger out to level 6 instead of 14 for the extra attack and defensive spells sometime after you get evasion from Rogue. Taking it all the way out to 14 will stunt your sneak attack too much and you'll start looking more like a caster than a front-liner. As far as spell picks, you really aren't going to find any that directly enhance your ability to smash things, but you will find some that give you increased defenses and in-combat utility, such as blur and misty step.

Edit: a word

[Night Eternal]

Ua just realeased a updated class list. One of the invocation is improvised weapon which now includes weapon counts as a spellcssting focus. With eldritch smite invocation abilty i can burn my wizard spell slots to do more damage. Does it now makw sense to forgo the 3 lvl of rogue i was going to take to get this. I would be traiding uncanny dodge, expertise and an asi for smite, magic weapon focus, and proabbly take fiend patron for temp healing poimts ( hex blade). I woukd also gain excess to hex

Thoughts ?

[Citan]

hi guys

I'm a swashbuckler 3 lvl / 2lvl bladesinger wizard in a power campaign. I'm filling in the roles of rogue and the tank. I duel wield scimitars my ac is 18 normally until i blade sing which is then 22. With green flame blade i do 4d6+ 5 with my sneak attack :)

Im trying to figure out what to do with my character. I like being a tank and i like dealing damage. My original thought was to go 6 rogue and 14 blade singer. but this was just for 14th skill where i can add my int to each melee attack. But i dont use most of my spell becuase i prefer attacking. I choose mostly spells that buff. So i plan on getting mirage image and haste,fireshield, blur maybe. But there isn't many spells which foucs on enhancing melee combat. Most of them that are there concentration.

So now i'm looking into other option to make me a better tank/ melee fighter. So thoughts :)
Well honestly I think the most you could do to make yourself better would be to hurry along Wizard and/or Rogue: on Wizard part, a Haste paired with Warcaster will synergize perfectly with your Swashbuckler "free disengage on attack" feature for when you want to hit and run. And you will later get Extra Attack for when you have a reason to prefer distributing damage (or stacking chances to hit) instead of using weapon cantrips. And yet later Greater Invisibility which would go slightly against the "tanking" part (enemy who can't see you won't try to attack you usually) but do wonders offense-wise.
For "tankiness", you could bet on several uses of Grease or Web, even near yourself, especially if you started Rogue (DEX proficiency), since you have a very very high chance to escape the effect yourself.
Then keep your 3rd slot for Fear, arguably the best "tankiness" spell available to you, since frightened condition means enemies will suffer disadvantages on their attacks. A good alternative being Slow, arguably even more powerful but more limited in potential number of creatures affected.
When you reach 7th level, an alternative to Greater Invisibility would be Polymorph: you would maybe lose some features (speak to DM before), but at least you would get a nifty amount of HP available as a Giant Ape. Other good options would be Fire Shield (provided you can also force enemies to attack you) or Conjure Minor Elementals (which can act as shields to protect squishies or force enemies to move in a certain way).

On Rogue side, Uncanny Dodge is easily your best way to mitigate damage when you want to conserve your slots from Shield.
If you reach 9th level, Panache will help you greatly to keep a few enemies focused on you, although it does require efficient teamwork if you don't want your teammates ruining it just one turn after.

Considering multiclass options...
- You probably have no STR nor CHA high enough for a Paladin multiclass, probably not for any class relying on either (so exit Barbarian Rage, Bard's Cutting Words or Warlock's Armor of Agathys).
- You probably don't have high WIS enough for any Cleric/Druid/Monk multiclass, and most of the features they provide would create a strong competition in terms of action economy (bonus action) or concentration anyways.
- So realistically Fighter is the only multiclass available, and most of his defensive features are wasted. With that said, it does still offer a few decent things by going Battlemaster: TWF Fighting Style, Action Surge and Precision Attack/Riposte/Evasive Footwork or Trip Attack are nice tricks.

Still, in your stead, I would go straight Wizard 5 ASAP, using the ASI on Warcaster if you already have close to max DEX and INT... Which I suppose so, considering you say you have 18 AC stat (so I guess Mage Armor with 20 DEX) and 22 when Bladesinging (so +4 bonus meaning 18 INT).
Then either grab Rogue 5 now or pursue Wizard to get 4th level spells, depending on which ones you would be interested in.


Not and be "optimal". OP's not asking if he can do it. He's asking how to do it best.

Also, mind you the fact that he doesn't want to use spells for damage (maybe melee cantrips) but wants to use melee attacks. Why level Wizard when all those spells will go to waste?

Honestly, I'm not sure you're the right class/multi-class for this. I can definitely say that pumping levels into wizard would not be "optimal" to achieve this goal.

Wizards are not designed to be putting out melee damage and aren't really designed to tank.
Rogues can take a hit but aren't designed to "tank" either. They also function very well as a hit and run class which isn't very "tanky".

I'm sorry but you are in the wrong here, doubly so.

First, on the specific point of Bladesinger, to answer your question in the first post, although it would be a very poor use of spell slots, Bladesinger gets a "absorb damage through slots" as his 10th level feature.

Beyond that, any Wizard that gets at least lvl 18 gets one of the best defense in the game, simply by being able to spam Shield freely, with the concur of Mirror Image / Blur for example.
So Sir Cryosin's example is in fact one of the best tanks available.
Still, this option is lost for OP so let's put it aside.

Let's also consider that OP would end with Rogue 7 because Uncanny Dodge and Evasion ARE great defensive abilities (especially since "free Shield" is unattainable).

How could he tank with this specific multiclass?
At lower levels, confer the above of my post. At higher levels, there are many many spells that OP could use to tank / control the battlefield to enhance his melee attacks directly or indirectly: using Hold Person/Monster to make all his attacks (and friend's) autohit, creating a Wall of X to channel enemies towards a spot in which he can stand (or even enclose one big foe into a deathmatch), using an Investiture of X to get additional damage.
He could also use conjuration spells to offer some protection to his friends while himself goes have fun in the frontline.
He could prepare a Contingency to help survive dangerous situations by setting up a Greater Invisibility, Blink, Polymorph or Misty Step for example.

Basically, whether OP wants to be smart or carefree about spellcasting, whether he is interested in directly dealing magical damage, weapon damage or otherwise, getting more levels of Wizard will provide him great options whatever goal he has, including "tanking". :)

Although in his stead, I would either plan on keeping Rogue 5 and going instead Wizard 15, so he could get much better damage on weapon attacks and greater spells such as Simulacrum, Clone and Sympathy.

[Night Eternal]

W

Considering multiclass options...
- You probably have no STR nor CHA high enough for a Paladin multiclass, probably not for any class relying on either (so exit Barbarian Rage, Bard's Cutting Words or Warlock's Armor of Agathys).
- You probably don't have high WIS enough for any Cleric/Druid/Monk multiclass, and most of the features they provide would create a strong competition in terms of action economy (bonus action) or concentration anyways.
- So realistically Fighter is the only multiclass available, and most of his defensive features are wasted. With that said, it does still offer a few decent things by going Battlemaster: TWF Fighting Style, Action Surge and Precision Attack/Riposte/Evasive Footwork or Trip Attack are nice tricks.

.

I'm in a power campaign ( reroll 1 and 2) and rolled really well, i have 18 in everything but dexterity Which is 20. So i can multiclass into anything.

Bye the way thanks for the suggestion after that. It was really helpful

[dejarnjc]

I'm sorry but you are in the wrong here, doubly so.

First, on the specific point of Bladesinger, to answer your question in the first post, although it would be a very poor use of spell slots, Bladesinger gets a "absorb damage through slots" as his 10th level feature.

Beyond that, any Wizard that gets at least lvl 18 gets one of the best defense in the game, simply by being able to spam Shield freely, with the concur of Mirror Image / Blur for example.
So Sir Cryosin's example is in fact one of the best tanks available.
Still, this option is lost for OP so let's put it aside.

Let's also consider that OP would end with Rogue 7 because Uncanny Dodge and Evasion ARE great defensive abilities (especially since "free Shield" is unattainable).

How could he tank with this specific multiclass?
At lower levels, confer the above of my post. At higher levels, there are many many spells that OP could use to tank / control the battlefield to enhance his melee attacks directly or indirectly: using Hold Person/Monster to make all his attacks (and friend's) autohit, creating a Wall of X to channel enemies towards a spot in which he can stand (or even enclose one big foe into a deathmatch), using an Investiture of X to get additional damage.
He could also use conjuration spells to offer some protection to his friends while himself goes have fun in the frontline.
He could prepare a Contingency to help survive dangerous situations by setting up a Greater Invisibility, Blink, Polymorph or Misty Step for example.

Basically, whether OP wants to be smart or carefree about spellcasting, whether he is interested in directly dealing magical damage, weapon damage or otherwise, getting more levels of Wizard will provide him great options whatever goal he has, including "tanking". :)

Although in his stead, I would either plan on keeping Rogue 5 and going instead Wizard 15, so he could get much better damage on weapon attacks and greater spells such as Simulacrum, Clone and Sympathy.


To be honest, I think that planning anything beyond level 15 is purely fanciful. Some groups do play past that but most don't and the time spent playing past that point is such a small amount of your campaign that it's not worth it.

And anyway, as I said before. I never implied OP's theorized rogue 3 / bladesinger X build COULDN'T tank. I just said it's not optimal for tanking AND doing significant melee damage... and it quite simply isn't. He gets max 2 attacks a round. He can't use GWM to boost up attacks. He can't smite. He can't use maneuvers like a fighter. He can't action surge etc. etc.

And hell, even song of defense isn't THAT stellar (it is nice though if you do want to tank). If you sacrifice a 3rd level spell slot, you're potentially sacrificing a fireball/lightning bolt (28 dmg even to just a single target) to spare yourself 15 damage (this is less effective than 5e's healing spells which are already pretty damn ineffective). Considering that in 5e front loading damage and killing the enemy quickly is consistently the most effective way of sparing yourself damage, then utilizing those spell slots to prevent damage is definitely not optimal.

*EDIT* I should also add that OP wants to duel wield. Well then how the hell is he going to cast all of these great wizard spells you list if he's duel wielding?



Also, if you had actually read my post, you'll see that I already suggested he keep going rogue from this point to beef up his melee damage. If he keeps going wizard levels then it would eventually be MUCH more optimal to just stand back and cast spells to do damage rather than to use his melee attacks.





So yeah, if this were a character concept thread then I'd be wrong, but the fact is that OP asked for optimization and I'm doing my best to provide him that.

[dejarnjc]

Hey OP, my suggestion would be to talk to your DM and see if you can re-spec to a Paladin (with TWF allowed) / Sorcerer multi-class. The popular Sorcadin multi-class seems to be exactly what you're looking for.

Alternatively, see if you could re-spec to a Wizard 2 / Bladelock X multi-class and then use that smite invocation.

The rogue levels just don't seem to be what you're looking for IMO. Also, you have cunning action but since you're duel wielding you'll use your cunning action in combat much less than you would otherwise.

IF you can't re-spec then I suggest just leveling up your rogue levels. The problem with going for three layers of multi-class at low level is that you heavily delay the big power boosts in the game like 2nd attack and 3rd level spells.

[Citan]

I'm in a power campaign ( reroll 1 and 2) and rolled really well, i have 18 in everything but dexterity Which is 20. So i can multiclass into anything.

Bye the way thanks for the suggestion after that. It was really helpful
WUT????
18 in EVERYTHING? OMG.
This changes the deal quite a bit.
Then here are several great options for multiclass in case you don't want to bear with "only" dual-class. XD

Bear Barbarian 3
This is a hard one since it basically forces you to drop spellcasting entirely for a while. Still it's compatible with Bladesinging by RAW (IIRC), and you also get much better DEX saves (advantage) in addition to resist-near-all-damage 2/long rest and Unarmored 19 AC. If you don't mind the "rage or spell" question this is a very fine addition (you can even afford to use STR-based weapon attacks really).

Lore Bard 3/5
Cutting Words is the main thing here, clearly not enough to justify the dip though. Good choice only if you want to spread in several directions (healing, utility, defense, skills).

Light Cleric 1
4/long rest Warding Flare (which can work also against ranged attacks), Bless for you and others when you are wary of spells, and Healing Words/Sanctuary for self-sufficiency make this a solid 1-level dip.

Druid 1/2/3/6
a single level in Druid can free many good spells from your Wizard's prepared spell list: Jump, Longstrider, Absorb Elements, Thunderwave, Fog Cloud, Ice Knife etc... You also get basic Wild Shape which is still compatible with Bladesinging and Cunning Action per RAW, expanding your options of spying/scouting while staying safe.
And you get some nice cantrips to mess around with enemies positioning (Thorns Whip) or accuracy (Mold Earth small covers).
If you want to be a bit stupid about it and have someone else able to cast Haste on you or otherwise increase your movement (or yourself add Mobile feat and/or Monk levels), Expertise in Grappling paired with high movement with a Spike Growth lying around can net crazy damage (low damage, but no escape, every 5 feet).

Monk (Long Death/Open Hand/4 Elements) 3 / 5
Considering your stats, this one is great even for a low level dip: Unarmored 19, short-rest Dodge as bonus action, Deflect as a reaction and added movement would be a great addition to your character (before even considering the archetypes's bonus). Going as far as 5 would create a Redundancy in case you still pursue Wizard (Extra Attack) but Stunning Strike may or not be worth it.

Paladin 3/6/7 (Vengeance/Devotion/Ancients/Crown)
Honestly if tanking is your objective, you won't have any better than Ancients Paladin 7. For 3-level dips the other are very worthy:
Devotion for good all-around +4 on the weapon attacks (especially paired with Haste and TWF).
Vengeance to tear through a single enemy.
Crown to aggro like nobody.
Bonus point: at least you have a way to use your spell slots that is simple and totally within your wish of dealing damage (smite).

Hunter Ranger 3
For damage, Hunter's Mark and Horde Breaker will be nice. If also gives you a very interesting alternative by allowing you to Bladesong hand crossbows for situations when you prefer hanging back. XD
Probably one of the worst options though.

Sorcerer (any) 4+
Since you are not that interested in offensive spellcasting, Sorcerer is not the best choice per se. Still, any of available Metamagic could prove very useful to you (especially Quickened or Extended).

Warlock X
If you really like a particular spell, getting a short-rest use of it could be nice. You can also expand your defensive options with Armor of Agathys.
Probably not the best choice though unless you have a specific idea in mind that cannot be achieved otherwise.

Honestly, the best advice I could give was the one I provided in the previous post.
Now, the crazy in me would tell you to forego any decency and become a wild dipper to get all the low-level interesting features... But that kind of X-class build is good only in theorycraft or speedrun campaigns where you get one level per session... XD

Just for fun, one example of such "ideal" lvl 20 build for your stats (not even the most "efficient" but crazy versatile, and at least you can say you really put your godly stats to good use XD): Swashbuckler Rogue 5 / Bladesinger 6 / Light Cleric 1 / Moon Druid 2 / Barb 2 / Warlock 1 / Battlemaster 3.

[Night Eternal]

WUT????
18 in EVERYTHING? OMG.
This changes the deal quite a bit.
Then here are several great options for multiclass in case you don't want to bear with "only" dual-class. XD

Bear Barbarian 3
This is a hard one since it basically forces you to drop spellcasting entirely for a while. Still it's compatible with Bladesinging by RAW (IIRC), and you also get much better DEX saves (advantage) in addition to resist-near-all-damage 2/long rest and Unarmored 19 AC. If you don't mind the "rage or spell" question this is a very fine addition (you can even afford to use STR-based weapon attacks really).

Lore Bard 3/5
Cutting Words is the main thing here, clearly not enough to justify the dip though. Good choice only if you want to spread in several directions (healing, utility, defense, skills).

Light Cleric 1
4/long rest Warding Flare (which can work also against ranged attacks), Bless for you and others when you are wary of spells, and Healing Words/Sanctuary for self-sufficiency make this a solid 1-level dip.

Druid 1/2/3/6
a single level in Druid can free many good spells from your Wizard's prepared spell list: Jump, Longstrider, Absorb Elements, Thunderwave, Fog Cloud, Ice Knife etc... You also get basic Wild Shape which is still compatible with Bladesinging and Cunning Action per RAW, expanding your options of spying/scouting while staying safe.
And you get some nice cantrips to mess around with enemies positioning (Thorns Whip) or accuracy (Mold Earth small covers).
If you want to be a bit stupid about it and have someone else able to cast Haste on you or otherwise increase your movement (or yourself add Mobile feat and/or Monk levels), Expertise in Grappling paired with high movement with a Spike Growth lying around can net crazy damage (low damage, but no escape, every 5 feet).

Monk (Long Death/Open Hand/4 Elements) 3 / 5
Considering your stats, this one is great even for a low level dip: Unarmored 19, short-rest Dodge as bonus action, Deflect as a reaction and added movement would be a great addition to your character (before even considering the archetypes's bonus). Going as far as 5 would create a Redundancy in case you still pursue Wizard (Extra Attack) but Stunning Strike may or not be worth it.

Paladin 3/6/7 (Vengeance/Devotion/Ancients/Crown)
Honestly if tanking is your objective, you won't have any better than Ancients Paladin 7. For 3-level dips the other are very worthy:
Devotion for good all-around +4 on the weapon attacks (especially paired with Haste and TWF).
Vengeance to tear through a single enemy.
Crown to aggro like nobody.
Bonus point: at least you have a way to use your spell slots that is simple and totally within your wish of dealing damage (smite).

Hunter Ranger 3
For damage, Hunter's Mark and Horde Breaker will be nice. If also gives you a very interesting alternative by allowing you to Bladesong hand crossbows for situations when you prefer hanging back. XD
Probably one of the worst options though.

Sorcerer (any) 4+
Since you are not that interested in offensive spellcasting, Sorcerer is not the best choice per se. Still, any of available Metamagic could prove very useful to you (especially Quickened or Extended).

Warlock X
If you really like a particular spell, getting a short-rest use of it could be nice. You can also expand your defensive options with Armor of Agathys.
Probably not the best choice though unless you have a specific idea in mind that cannot be achieved otherwise.

Honestly, the best advice I could give was the one I provided in the previous post.
Now, the crazy in me would tell you to forego any decency and become a wild dipper to get all the low-level interesting features... But that kind of X-class build is good only in theorycraft or speedrun campaigns where you get one level per session... XD

Just for fun, one example of such "ideal" lvl 20 build for your stats (not even the most "efficient" but crazy versatile, and at least you can say you really put your godly stats to good use XD): Swashbuckler Rogue 5 / Bladesinger 6 / Light Cleric 1 / Moon Druid 2 / Barb 2 / Warlock 1 / Battlemaster 3.

thanks this was exactly the break down i need. I love spell casting but i like to mix it in with melee fighting. When i had my pure bladesinger it always felt bad because i spells that did more damage but i would ignore them and save them for shielding. when i looked down the road it was going to get a lot worse. It would make more sense to just throw my most powerful spells and then go in for the kill. But since everyone else on my team had a low ac and where mostly spell caster. So i had to draw attention or they would die. Which i kept them a live for a long time but some eventually died. By our own team member. He was sorcerer who dropped 3 fireball on us. He killed 2 party members. Now were getting a new group which might mean i wont have to run around as much :)

I with you on wanting to just go multi-classing crazy. I meant what are the chances of having stats like this. I might as well just go nuts lol. I know alot of people like multi-classing many times to make a monster characters .So this has helped me alot to see what i can do. your original post helped alot rogue 5 give me uncanny dogde and 15 wizard gives my 8th lvl spells. Its a lot to consider but gives me great option. I have to see how my new party is. Thanks again.

ps. My strength is actually 17. i was mistaken. But that my dump stat lol

[PeteNutButter]

With Haste you can BB with your action, but still attack with the haste action. It is still taking the attack action, so it allows for TWF bonus action attack. That ends up being 3 attacks (one with bonus cantrip damage) on a character that doesn't even have extra attack. The cool thing is this works the turn you cast haste: Action: Cast Haste; Haste action: attack action > bonus action: TWF attack.

I'd get haste from wizard, then uncanny dodge from rogue, which puts you at level 10. From there maybe dip paladin for smite. If you have long adventuring days, where haste can't up often, pick up wizard 6 for extra attack. Alternatively if you want to wait on extra attack, paladin 6 is amazing when rocking a high cha.

You need warcaster if you want to cast shield while dual wielding.

[deathadder99]

I'd second warcaster. As people have said, sadly GFB/BB are not compatible with dual wielding, but you can probably keep it for style points, and grab the Dual Wielder feat at some stage and at least get it to bump up your AC and increase your damage dice.

For progression, honestly going the rest rogue gives you a really well rounded out build, or potentially Wizard 6 for the extra attack (but that also doesn't synergise with GFB/BB ). I've played rogue X/Wiz 2 and it's a really solid build, and the scaling of the SCAG cantrips makes you v. strong.

Another option is to go monk with those stats and increase your AC and get the bonus action dodge w/ ki.

You could even go Barbarian and for rage(remember you can't concentrate on spells, but it's a decent defensive option) and permanent advantage with Reckless Attack - plus your unarmored defense is pretty good... In that case extra attacks are probably worth more (and I'd start using strength with your attacks for the extra damage, esp as you have 18 anyway).

Edit: Actually I'd also second haste - potentially with wizard 6. You get 2 attacks (action 1), (extra action from haste) and offhand attack (bonus action). That means you can get the most out of dual wielding AND the SCAG cantrips. Warcaster also gives you advantage on con saves as you really don't wanna fail your haste concentration. Do remember, that you'd be giving up 2d6 sneak attack damage, which is always on, so this might not be optimal.

With your stats, you could even do something insanely MAD like Sorceror for metamagic (quickened booming blade etc), paladin 6 for the aura.

Dipping into fighter is decent, you get Two Weapon fighting style, you can get BM manoeuvres and action surge.

I'd go at least Rogue 7 first, then look to build into something with Haste and/or multiple attacks. Wizard 6 is probably the easiest choice there - you also get 4 uses of Haste a day with the spell slot recovery as well. That gives you 7 more levels to play with, and I'd avoid planning too far into the future, see how it goes after that. The feats I'd recommend are definitely Warcaster, potential Resilient:Con and maybe Dual Wielder (if you find you want extra AC).

[PeteNutButter]

Edit: Actually I'd also second haste - potentially with wizard 6. You get 2 attacks (action 1), scag cantrip (extra action from haste) and offhand attack (bonus action). That means you can get the most out of dual wielding AND the SCAG cantrips. Warcaster also gives you advantage on con saves as you really don't wanna fail your haste concentration. Do remember, that you'd be giving up 2d6 sneak attack damage, which is always on, so this might not be optimal.


Casting a cantrip is not one of the options for the Haste action. You have to cantrip with your "core" action and attack with haste action. That's why I specified to only bother with extra attack if you find yourself in a lot of fights without the slots to haste.

[deathadder99]

Casting a cantrip is not one of the options for the Haste action. You have to cantrip with your "core" action and attack with haste action. That's why I specified to only bother with extra attack if you find yourself in a lot of fights without the slots to haste.

My bad, didn't read haste correctly... I think even with extra attack, Booming/GFB outclass it. No fighting style, so you only gain (at most) 2d6. Unless you're missing a lot and don't get sneak attack off. But in that case maybe going for Sorc with his stats could be good, and let him do a quickened Cantrip to deal with any misses.


Perhaps something like Rogue X/ Wizard 2/ Sorc 5. Maybe more levels into Sorc. Draconic is good for the always on Mage Armor and extra HP.

[mephnick]

Doesn't bladesong require a 1h weapon? Iirc RAW you can't dual wield and use bladesing anyway.

[Citan]

Doesn't bladesong require a 1h weapon? Iirc RAW you can't dual wield and use bladesing anyway.
Nop. What is forbidden is to "use two hands to attack with a weapon".
Two hands with A weapon implies you are using both hands at once for an attack: so exit using Longbows, slings, heavy weapons or Quarterstaff as a two-handed weapon. However, using it in a single hand to make attacks is fine. As is wielding a dagger in the other hand to dual-wield, since you are still making a weapon attack with only one hand in both cases. By extension, using a single hand crossbow is also fine (well, provided you get the proficiency in some way at least, otherwise it's really subpar XD).