What is this spiked chain everybody is going on about?

[CrackedChair]

So uh, hi, 5th edition Dungeoneer here. I have very little exposure to 3rd or 3.5th edition as a whole, but I have been hearing things about the spiked chain... whatever that is.

I knew it was used by Some half-ogre or somesuch in the comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html) and that he was using some sort of feat to make sure nothing can get close to him, but that is all I know.

Can somebody enlighten me about exactly why this chain is so talked-about?

[Gildedragon]

It is a two-handed weapon that threatens all the squares up to 10 feet away, has a bonus to disarm, one can freely trip with it, one can power attack with it...

[BaronDoctor]

The short simple version is that it's a two-handed exotic weapon (requiring Exotic Weapon Proficiency) that gives you the ability to threaten at "reach" like a polearm and in "close-quarters" like a longsword. It also allows (and I think gives a bonus to) trip and disarm attempts. With all the shenanigans that can be thrown together around Attacks of Opportunity, it's something of a "does-it-all" weapon.

[CrackedChair]

So it's pretty much a swiss army knife of erm, weapons.

It does sound threatening if it can do all that, but how often was it used? Did it make other weapons obsolete?

[Gildedragon]

So it's pretty much a swiss army knife of erm, weapons.

It does sound threatening if it can do all that, but how often was it used? Did it make other weapons obsolete?

It does make other exotic weapons kinda blah in comparison.
But it does cost a feat to get

[daremetoidareyo]

So it's pretty much a swiss army knife of erm, weapons.

It does sound threatening if it can do all that, but how often was it used? Did it make other weapons obsolete?

Spiked chain guys. You couldn't spit without hitting one circa 2005. Wielding a spiked chain immediately made you a munchkin suspect

[TheIronGolem]

It's notable for being a rare example of an exotic weapon actually being worth spending a feat slot for proficiency. Most of the time all you get over a comparable martial weapon is an average +1 damage or a minor situational bonus.

[CrackedChair]

So uh, just for reference to how it compares to the spiked chain, what exotic weapons are we talking about?

[Deadline]

So uh, just for reference to how it compares to the spiked chain, what exotic weapons are we talking about?

Pretty much any of them? Crack open the 3.5 SRD and look. The Spiked Chain beats them all easily.

[GilesTheCleric]

You don't actually have to take the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat if you are comfortable eating the -4 to-hit from nonproficiency.

It's an excellent weapon for just about any melee build. Given that "tanking" isn't really possible in 3e D&D because of the lack of "aggro" mechanics, players instead make "lockdown" builds. A lockdown build functions the same way as a tank in an MMO -- preventing baddies from getting to your squishies -- but does it through control of an area on the battlefield rather than by having lots of armour and hit points. That might be through provoking attacks of opportunity (or opportunity attacks I think they're called in 5e) as a dissuasion, or by more literally locking the opponents in place by tripping them or reducing their movement speed.

So in terms of frequency of use, I'd say that 95%+ of lockdown builds use it (the other 5% probably use spiked armour or else another weapon that performs the same way as the spiked chain, such as a kusari-gama). In terms of all melee characters? The weapon used doesn't matter all that much. I think a lot of folks probably just use a greatsword or guisarme or whatever other weapon has a special quality they want for their build (Eg. my favourite, the scorpion claws from Sandstorm, which grants a +4 to grapple checks and deals a free attack when you make a successful grapple check. Also they're scorpion claws that you wear on your hands and hurt people with! So cool). In most cases the pain is going to come from the build rather than the specific weapon they use.

In terms of making other weapons obsolete, see above. Specific weapons don't matter, so while the spiked chain is arguably one of the best weapons in the game, if all you care about is dealing damage, then it's probably too much effort to take the feat rather than just use a greatsword. It's also perfectly doable to replace the spiked chain with a reach weapon + armour spikes combo if you don't want to spend the feat. And, there's at least two or three other weapons that are functionally identical to it. That is to say, it's not an irreplaceable weapon.

[VoxRationis]

The spiked chain is also odd in that it is visually depicted in various places as having very different properties than it should. Pictures in both the PHB and PHBII (or maybe Unearthed Arcana... I can't remember) show it as being really made of three short chains connected by two rings which serve as handles; each hand gets its own ring. This should allow it to work as a 3.5-style "double weapon," allowing you to do two-weapon fighting with a single item. (Indeed, it should be far easier to hit with both ends of such a device than with the dwarven urgrosh, a different exotic weapon which is an axe with a spear head on the butt of the shaft. Hitting the same target with this weapon would mean doing an obligatory twirl of either yourself or your weapon midway through the round. But I digress.) Instead, it's a single weapon, but with 10' reach, which rather implies holding a single chain somewhere near the (presumably unspiked) end. This is not generally how the spiked chain appears in illustrations.

[Red Fel]

So uh, just for reference to how it compares to the spiked chain, what exotic weapons are we talking about?

Here's the Spiked Chain on the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#chainSpiked). Here is a weapon table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#tableWeapons) that compares various weapons, by category. If you scroll down in the table, you can see the Spiked Chain under Exotic Weapons > Two-Handed Melee Weapons.

Between the weapon entry and table entry, you should have everything you need to know about the weapon. With the table, you can also compare it with other exotic weapons.

As a general rule, most exotic weapons aren't worth the feat. For example, a Bastard Sword is a one-handed exotic weapon that deals 1d10 damage. Or you can wield it two-handed without treating it as exotic. Or you can get a Greatsword that deals 2d6 damage and throw away that Bastard Sword, it does nothing for you.

As for the Spiked Chain, it also has a non-exotic competitor - the Guisarme. Compare.

The Spiked Chain is an exotic two-handed weapon that deals 2d4 piercing damage and has a x2 crit modifier. It has reach, but can be used against adjacent foes. If you fail a trip attempt, you can drop it to avoid being tripped. It gives a bonus to disarm attempts, and can be used with Weapon Finesse.

The Guisarme is a martial two-handed weapon that deals 2d4 slashing damage and has a x3 crit modifier. It has reach. If you fail a trip attempt, you can drop it to avoid being tripped.

Basically, the Guisarme loses the ability to be used against adjacent foes, gives no disarm bonus, and can't be used with Weapon Finesse. On the other hand, it doesn't cost a feat to use, and has a better crit modifier. It also costs about a third of the Spiked Chain.

That's kind of the takeaway. Generally, exotic weapons aren't a particularly good upgrade, just a very slight benefit.

[Zombulian]

The spiked chain is also odd in that it is visually depicted in various places as having very different properties than it should. Pictures in both the PHB and PHBII (or maybe Unearthed Arcana... I can't remember) show it as being really made of three short chains connected by two rings which serve as handles; each hand gets its own ring. This should allow it to work as a 3.5-style "double weapon," allowing you to do two-weapon fighting with a single item. (Indeed, it should be far easier to hit with both ends of such a device than with the dwarven urgrosh, a different exotic weapon which is an axe with a spear head on the butt of the shaft. Hitting the same target with this weapon would mean doing an obligatory twirl of either yourself or your weapon midway through the round. But I digress.) Instead, it's a single weapon, but with 10' reach, which rather implies holding a single chain somewhere near the (presumably unspiked) end. This is not generally how the spiked chain appears in illustrations.

There's an illustration I clearly remember in one of my books... maybe it was in my D&D 3.5 starter box (I was the only person I knew with a soft cover players handbook)? I think it's a half-orc duo fighting a hag, one of them is smacking her in the face with their spiked chain. It's the only action-illustration of spiked chains that I've found reasonable.

Edit: Found it. (http://imgur.com/a/jUhDm) Some sort of promotion in the back of my Libris Mortis.

[ryu]

And if you're really just interested in a weapon to deal damage with because you have a party member who is proficient with crowd control and debuffs a scythe or greataxe is fantastic for laying into the prone/helpless. Then there's gnomish quick razors, kaorti resin, lightning maces and similarly unique special weapons.

[Deophaun]

I believe the drow scorpion chain largely obsoletes the spiked chain. Sure, it's 1d6 instead of 2d4, but it's 19-20/x2, weighs only 3 lbs, and is slashing so you're actually allowed to smash objects with it by RAW (piercing can't because archers killed Skip Williams's dog).

[Vizzerdrix]

If you want to see one in use, I think I saw one in the live action Tekken movie a few years back.

[Zombulian]

And if you're really just interested in a weapon to deal damage with because you have a party member who is proficient with crowd control and debuffs a scythe or greataxe is fantastic for laying into the prone/helpless. Then there's gnomish quick razors, kaorti resin, lightning maces and similarly unique special weapons.

Lightning Maces is a feat, not a weapon...

[GilesTheCleric]

Lightning Maces is a feat, not a weapon...

Kaorti Resin is a material, too. I think ryu was just giving examples of non-standard weapon approaches.

[ryu]

Lightning Maces is a feat, not a weapon...

Is it a commonly accepted way of hitting things with something that is neither part of your body nor an improvised weapon? Literally all that matters.

[Zombulian]

Kaorti Resin is a material, too. I think ryu was just giving examples of non-standard weapon approaches.

Yeah but using something made of it requires Exotic Weapon Proficiency, which was kinda part of the thread I thought.


Is it a commonly accepted way of hitting things with something that is neither part of your body nor an improvised weapon? Literally all that matters.

I was just concerned the person asking would look for a weapon with the name, considering we were talking about weapons, and you ended your sentence in a way that implied those things you listed were weapons. My bad.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Fun fact! Raptoran's and Dragonborn of Bahaumut can inflict double damage on a charge as long as they descend at least 10 ft as part of the charge and are using a Piercing or Slashing weapon. It makes sense, if your diving a piercing or slashing weapon could deal more damage. But a spiked chain? Not so much but totally RAW legal.

[Zombulian]

Fun fact! Raptoran's and Dragonborn of Bahaumut can inflict double damage on a charge as long as they descend at least 10 ft as part of the charge and are using a Piercing or Slashing weapon. It makes sense, if your diving a piercing or slashing weapon could deal more damage. But a spiked chain? Not so much but totally RAW legal.

I've actually used this in a build :3
Definitely not RAI but pretty funny to imagine. Not so much a flying skewer as much as a flyby chain drag.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I've actually used this in a build :3
Definitely not RAI but pretty funny to imagine. Not so much a flying skewer as much as a flyby chain drag.

Same here. Did a weird Ubercharger, DMM Persist Cleric hybrid. Worked out stupidly well, was doing about 50 Damage on a charge fairly reliably at level 4 before my big buffs came online.

[Kurald Galain]

Can somebody enlighten me about exactly why this chain is so talked-about?

Aside from it being really effective (as mentioned above), one of the reasons it gets a lot of talk is because, unlike every other most other weapons in the game, it has no real-life counterpart. That is, doing this with a chain is utterly impossible IRL, and you don't find spike chains in any other RPGs either. Whether that makes it soooo coooool or straight munchkinry depends on whom you ask :smallamused:

[Ellrin]

unlike every other weapon in the game, it has no real-life counterpart. That is, doing this with a chain is utterly impossible IRL

Uh, the double-bladed sword, among several other 3e weapons, would like a word with you.

[Kurald Galain]

Uh, the double-bladed sword, among several other 3e weapons, would like a word with you.

Oh right, I had forgotten about that silly thing. Thankfully that one doesn't stand out mechanically, so it doesn't see much play.

http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/comics/irreg0082.jpg

[Mordaedil]

Double-bladed swords are fun because it allows you to effectively dual-wield longswords.

I never quite got why they didn't just add a feat that let you do that without penalty instead.

[Zombulian]

Double-bladed swords are fun because it allows you to effectively dual-wield longswords.

I never quite got why they didn't just add a feat that let you do that without penalty instead.

They did. It's called Oversized Two Weapon Fighting

[Melcar]

So uh, hi, 5th edition Dungeoneer here. I have very little exposure to 3rd or 3.5th edition as a whole, but I have been hearing things about the spiked chain... whatever that is.

I knew it was used by Some half-ogre or somesuch in the comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html) and that he was using some sort of feat to make sure nothing can get close to him, but that is all I know.

Can somebody enlighten me about exactly why this chain is so talked-about?

Its the tripper build of doom and glory. The chain has reach, but can also be used in adjacent squares without penalty. It two-handed btw.

With the right feat combination and Thicket of Blades from ToB, both entering, exiting (with a 5 ft. step) and standing still in a threatened square provoke an attack of opportunity. When you combine that with being large or bigger you have an area in which enemies will never get through. Again that's because you build a tripper build. The chain also comes in a slashing version called Drow Scorpion Chain. That's good for vorpal and such.

[VoxRationis]

Aside from it being really effective (as mentioned above), one of the reasons it gets a lot of talk is because, unlike every other most other weapons in the game, it has no real-life counterpart. That is, doing this with a chain is utterly impossible IRL, and you don't find spike chains in any other RPGs either. Whether that makes it soooo coooool or straight munchkinry depends on whom you ask :smallamused:

I wouldn't say "utterly impossible." There are a variety of weapons that are vaguely similar to it, such as the... I believe it's called the meteor hammer? The basic premise of "attack with a long, flexible tool" isn't far-fetched. Of course, you can't maintain a formation with such a weapon, parrying is difficult because you would need to shift your grip to hold the chain in two places and then hold a length of chain between the enemy's blow and your body, and the weapon's lack of rigidity means you can't follow through with a blow and thus damage will tend to be surface-level, but that just makes it "utterly impractical," rather than impossible.

[Kurald Galain]

I wouldn't say "utterly impossible." There are a variety of weapons that are vaguely similar to it, such as the... I believe it's called the meteor hammer?

https://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/kaldaarpedia/images/a/ab/Spiked_chain.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130707045144 http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120524070258/mafiawars/images/e/eb/Huge_item_meteorhammer_01.png

Looks like whatever designer made the spiked chain had no idea what a meteor hammer is or how it's used, then. it would hardly be the first case: D&D designers over several editions didn't know the difference between a military sling and a Dennis-the-Menace-slingshot, either.

[Deadline]

The Spiked Chain is an exotic two-handed weapon that deals 2d4 piercing damage and has a x2 crit modifier. It has reach, but can be used against adjacent foes. If you fail a trip attempt, you can drop it to avoid being tripped. It gives a bonus to disarm attempts, and can be used with Weapon Finesse.

It's also worth noting that it is one of a very small number of weapons that can be used with both Power Attack and Weapon Finesse.

[Fouredged Sword]

The exotic weapons that are worth taking are worth taking because they do something unique. Most of them bump up your damage die by one point and then do nothing. This is worth less than weapon specialization, an already horrible feat.

There is the elven two handed finesse-able sword that can be worth taking
There is the spiked chain, a reach weapon that can hit nearby targets without penalty and is also a finesse-able two handed weapon and can be worth taking.
There are a few buckler / weapon hybrid weapons that act as shield and weapon at the same time that can be worth taking.

And that is about it. To justify a feat you need the weapon to be able to do something another weapon cannot. One point of extra damage per hit doesn't cut it.

[Deadline]

There is the elven two handed finesse-able sword that can be worth taking

Well, mechanically, sure. But what about looking cool?

Dual Wielding Dwarven Waraxes?

http://whfrp.weebly.com/uploads/1/2/4/0/12408478/712777204.jpg?240

[Deophaun]

I wouldn't say "utterly impossible." There are a variety of weapons that are vaguely similar to it, such as the... I believe it's called the meteor hammer? The basic premise of "attack with a long, flexible tool" isn't far-fetched. Of course, you can't maintain a formation with such a weapon, parrying is difficult because you would need to shift your grip to hold the chain in two places and then hold a length of chain between the enemy's blow and your body, and the weapon's lack of rigidity means you can't follow through with a blow and thus damage will tend to be surface-level, but that just makes it "utterly impractical," rather than impossible.
Kusarigama is an actual real-world weapon which is "attack with a long, flexible tool" and was used in actual, real world combat.

[Zanos]

So uh, just for reference to how it compares to the spiked chain, what exotic weapons are we talking about?
The spiked chain is better than almost every other Exotic Weapon, but every other exotic weapon is really bad and almost never worth a feat. It was "notorious" because it looks dumb and was a good mechanical choice.

I guess we can look at the PHB ones:
Light:
Kama: Worse than a handaxe or shortsword.
Nunchacku: Same as a light mace.
Sai: Worse than a light mace.
Siangham: Worse than a handaxe or shortsword.

Most of these are monk weapons, but monk gets that for free anyway. You can use them to disarm, but you could also just spend a feat on improved disarm and be better off just using a different weapon instead of EWP. Disarming is also a weak strategy. Many monsters don't use held weapons, larger creatures get big bonuses to resist, and dead people can't hold weapons anyway.

One-Handed:
Bastard Sword: Only does anything interesting when being used one handed, in which case it's 1d10 vs a longswords 1d8, which is an average of +1 damage. Not great, but something.
Dwarven Waraxe: I think dwarves get automatic proficiency with this which is nice. For anyone else it's very similar to the bastard sword, but with x3 crit instead of 19-20/x2.
Whip: Doesn't damage anything with +1 armor or +3 or higher nat armor, which is mostly everything. Doesn't threaten it's area. Outside of niche builds, very bad.

Two-Handed:
All of these except for the spiked chain are double weapons. Some of these are actually okay, but two weapon fighting isn't a very effective fighting style due to the feat tax, attack penalty, damage reduction, needing two weapons(even double weapons are enchanted separately) and split strength bonus.
Spiked Chain: Most interestingly, it threatens out to 10ft like a spear, but can also strike adjacent targets like a normal weapon, preventing people from stepping into you to get out of your threatened area. Damage die isn't great for a two hander and piercing is a bad damage type, but tripping is a good quality to have, and the weapon is generally solid.

Ranged:
Bolas: These are actually kind of cool, as they let you make a ranged trip attempt. 10ft range increment is painful, though.
Hand Crossbow: It's a one handed crossbow. I'm really not sure what this is even for, it's very bad. I guess you could make a crossbow dual wielder if you really hated yourself.
Light Repeating Crossbow: Rapid Reload(Light Crossbow) does the same thing but better.
Heavy Repeating Crossbow: This actually has a little bit of merit as it lets you fire a heavy crossbow every round, but it has the same problem as the bastard sword as it's only a slight damage increase over other options. Not worthless, though.
Net: Entangle is a good status, and it's a ranged touch attack as well. These aren't bad, but tanglefoot bags don't require a feat and serve a similar function.

Honestly exotic weapons would be better if more weapons were like the spiked chain.

[Ellrin]

Net: Entangle is a good status, and it's a ranged touch attack as well. These aren't bad, but tanglefoot bags don't require a feat and serve a similar function.

I actually really like the net. It's cheaper than a tanglefoot bag (and can potentially be reused), has more utility if you can retain control of the trailing rope, and it can be enchanted for further shenanigans. You could probably even make it out of special materials to decrease the weight and, with a permissive DM, even increase its hit points and the DC of a Strength check. I mean it's probably made of hemp rope, which lends itself very easily to a silk rope upgrade, if not mithril or adamantine chains.

That said, it's a ranged touch attack, so unless you're playing a half BAB class that for some reason has no ability to buff its attack rolls, you can generally eat the nonproficiency penalty at mid levels and above pretty easily.

[hamishspence]

Kusarigama is an actual real-world weapon which is "attack with a long, flexible tool" and was used in actual, real world combat.

It's also statted out in both Oriental Adventures and the DMG. As I recall, the Oriental Adventures version is more like the real thing - the DMG version is basically a Light spiked chain that's slashing instead of piercing.

I visualise characters using two, as being a bit like Kratos from the God of War video game.

[Zombulian]

It's also statted out in both Oriental Adventures and the DMG. As I recall, the Oriental Adventures version is more like the real thing - the DMG version is basically a Light spiked chain that's slashing instead of piercing.

I visualise characters using two, as being a bit like Kratos from the God of War video game.

The thing wrong with the Oriental Adventures version is you can technically dual wield it. While the idea of dual wielding chains is pretty badass, it's definitely not historically accurate.

[Zombulian]

It's also statted out in both Oriental Adventures and the DMG. As I recall, the Oriental Adventures version is more like the real thing - the DMG version is basically a Light spiked chain that's slashing instead of piercing.

I visualise characters using two, as being a bit like Kratos from the God of War video game.

Actually now that I think about it, Kratos' chain blades were actually statted out in a Dragon Magazine

[Random Sanity]

Kusarigama is an actual real-world weapon which is "attack with a long, flexible tool" and was used in actual, real world combat.

Note that the two primary real-world uses of a kusarigama are "attack with the handheld blade" and "throw the weighted end at your opponent's head, then use the attached chain to reel it in for another throw". Trying to swing either end around by the chain is a highly-inefficient use of the weapon that tends to threaten the wielder as much as the target.

[Fouredged Sword]

Note that the two primary real-world uses of a kusarigama are "attack with the handheld blade" and "throw the weighted end at your opponent's head, then use the attached chain to reel it in for another throw". Trying to swing either end around by the chain is a highly-inefficient use of the weapon that tends to threaten the wielder as much as the target.

There are also leg sweeps with the weighted end, but those are less twirls more swings aiming at kneecaps to off-balance your target so you can stab them.

[zergling.exe]

Note that the two primary real-world uses of a kusarigama are "attack with the handheld blade" and "throw the weighted end at your opponent's head, then use the attached chain to reel it in for another throw". Trying to swing either end around by the chain is a highly-inefficient use of the weapon that tends to threaten the wielder as much as the target.

Well if you threaten yourself with your weapon of choice as a heroic character, you seem like more of a gag character than someone seriously trying.

[Dagroth]

Note that the two primary real-world uses of a kusarigama are "attack with the handheld blade" and "throw the weighted end at your opponent's head, then use the attached chain to reel it in for another throw". Trying to swing either end around by the chain is a highly-inefficient use of the weapon that tends to threaten the wielder as much as the target.

This.

Any "attack at a distance with the bladed weapon" use of a kusarigama is nonsensical.

Spinning the weighted chain end at your side before flinging it is pretty normal... but spinning the bladed weapon end is just asking to get hurt by your own weapon.

[Deophaun]

Note that the two primary real-world uses of a kusarigama are "attack with the handheld blade" and "throw the weighted end at your opponent's head, then use the attached chain to reel it in for another throw". Trying to swing either end around by the chain is a highly-inefficient use of the weapon that tends to threaten the wielder as much as the target.
No, you actually keep the weighted end in motion; you don't simply throw it. And you can bring it down on their head, you can bring it down on their hand (to break the thumb), you can bring it down on their weapon to entangle and disarm them, you can wrap it around their neck to pull them in, etc. It's not "throw the weight like it's a rock and jerk it back." That's the wrong way to use it:

Demonstration:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT8k2_ICclw

[Dagroth]

No, you actually keep the weighted end in motion; you don't simply throw it. And you can bring it down on their head, you can bring it down on their hand (to break the thumb), you can bring it down on their weapon to entangle and disarm them, you can wrap it around their neck to pull them in, etc. It's not "throw the weight like it's a rock and jerk it back." That's the wrong way to use it:

Demonstration:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT8k2_ICclw

Rope Dart/Meteor Hammer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IPl2tFNihc

[Ellrin]

Well if you threaten yourself with your weapon of choice as a heroic character, you seem like more of a gag character than someone seriously trying.

Sword-chucks, yo.

[Mordaedil]

Well, mechanically, sure. But what about looking cool?

Dual Wielding Dwarven Waraxes?

http://whfrp.weebly.com/uploads/1/2/4/0/12408478/712777204.jpg?240
I mean, the same is accomplished by battleaxes.

Also, dwarven waraxes are treated by dwarves with weapon familiarity, isn't it? You don't even need to take a feat then.

Only reason I'd consider bladed gauntlets is because it offers both damage and higher crit rate than a spiked gauntlet.

[hamishspence]

The thing wrong with the Oriental Adventures version is you can technically dual wield it. While the idea of dual wielding chains is pretty badass, it's definitely not historically accurate.

Given that whips can be wielded one-handed - maybe it could be thought of as like a metal bullwhip with a blade on the end?

In Redwall, the rat villain Cluny the Scourge has a poisoned blade strapped to the end of his tail, which he uses the same way.

[Gildedragon]

Given that whips can be wielded one-handed - maybe it could be thought of as like a metal bullwhip with a blade on the end?

In Redwall, the rat villain Cluny the Scourge has a poisoned blade strapped to the end of his tail, which he uses the same way.

Nah. Those are Daggerwhips and Braidblades

[hamishspence]

They fill a similar niche, it is true.

[Ellrin]

Given that whips can be wielded one-handed - maybe it could be thought of as like a metal bullwhip with a blade on the end?

In Redwall, the rat villain Cluny the Scourge has a poisoned blade strapped to the end of his tail, which he uses the same way.

You're going to have much, much more control over a blade strapped directly to your body than you will on a blade attached to the end of a chain/rope/leather strap/etc.

[hamishspence]

He still has to grip his tail in his paw to crack it - it's not fully prehensile. That said, there's hints that he can move it to some extent without doing that.

[Bucky]

Whips have a niche as a one handed reach weapon, which is otherwise hard to find.

[hamishspence]

Yup - the DMG Kusari-gama seems to invade that niche a bit. Whips have several disadvantages by comparison - they don't threaten the area within their long reach, their damage is low, and it's naturally nonlethal (though that has its own uses).

[Guizonde]

No, you actually keep the weighted end in motion; you don't simply throw it. And you can bring it down on their head, you can bring it down on their hand (to break the thumb), you can bring it down on their weapon to entangle and disarm them, you can wrap it around their neck to pull them in, etc. It's not "throw the weight like it's a rock and jerk it back." That's the wrong way to use it:

Demonstration:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT8k2_ICclw

iirc that's what a friend of mine who practices viet vo dao calls "gravity bombs". basically, any move that needs momentum to go from "ouch" to "ko". can be a spinning kick, a stomp, or using a ball and chain (read: meteor hammers, spiked chains, swinging a big hammer downwards, flying takedowns...). in his own words: "it looks great for katas, but it's impractical because you have to telegraph the attack and you need room to pull it off. the trick is to dodge and break the opponent's footing while he's gearing up. of course, if you get hit, you're down for a few minutes at least." and then of course, there's also the fact you need to keep track of your weapon's inertia and the fight simultaneously. never tried it personally, but it does look really cool.

[Deophaun]

iirc that's what a friend of mine who practices viet vo dao calls "gravity bombs". basically, any move that needs momentum to go from "ouch" to "ko". can be a spinning kick, a stomp, or using a ball and chain (read: meteor hammers, spiked chains, swinging a big hammer downwards, flying takedowns...). in his own words: "it looks great for katas, but it's impractical because you have to telegraph the attack and you need room to pull it off. the trick is to dodge and break the opponent's footing while he's gearing up. of course, if you get hit, you're down for a few minutes at least." and then of course, there's also the fact you need to keep track of your weapon's inertia and the fight simultaneously. never tried it personally, but it does look really cool.
Eh, it was good enough to disarm Musashi (at least until he drew his wakizashi and threw it at his opponent), so I'll say it's practical enough.

[Zombulian]

Whips have a niche as a one handed reach weapon, which is otherwise hard to find.

The Spinning Sword from Secrets of Sarlona is much better and can be disguised as a belt :smalltongue:

[Âmesang]

The spiked chain is also odd in that it is visually depicted in various places as having very different properties than it should. Pictures in both the PHB and PHBII (or maybe Unearthed Arcana... I can't remember) show it as being really made of three short chains connected by two rings which serve as handles; each hand gets its own ring. This should allow it to work as a 3.5-style "double weapon," allowing you to do two-weapon fighting with a single item. (Indeed, it should be far easier to hit with both ends of such a device than with the dwarven urgrosh, a different exotic weapon which is an axe with a spear head on the butt of the shaft. Hitting the same target with this weapon would mean doing an obligatory twirl of either yourself or your weapon midway through the round. But I digress.) Instead, it's a single weapon, but with 10' reach, which rather implies holding a single chain somewhere near the (presumably unspiked) end. This is not generally how the spiked chain appears in illustrations.
I used to work as a parking lot attendant for a big-name hardware store and so worked with long, heavy chains and ropes daily; combined with some influence from DC Comic's Lobo and the one time I drew a character with a spiked chain (badly, I'll admit!), she had a length of non-spiked chain wrapped around her forearm to give her extra leverage:


https://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/gallery/ambrosia00.png
Note: The purple squiggly lines around the chain are an unfinished "unholy shocking burst" affect—I think my intent was to eventually make it black along the outer edges, white or purple along the inner, with a white or purple glow… but I never finished it…… in fact I never really finished the drawing at all, and considering I drew her almost a decade ago, I probably never will. :smalltongue: Though I still like the design, so it doesn't mean I could draw her all over… preferably with a more action-oriented pose.

[Zanos]

I used to work as a parking lot attendant for a big-name hardware store and so worked with long, heavy chains and ropes daily; combined with some influence from DC Comic's Lobo and the one time I drew a character with a spiked chain (badly, I'll admit!), she had a length of non-spiked chain wrapped around her forearm to give her extra leverage:


http://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/gallery/ambrosia00.png
Note: The purple squiggly lines around the chain are an unfinished "unholy shocking burst" affect—I think my intent was to eventually make it black along the outer edges, white or purple along the inner, with a white or purple glow… but I never finished it…… in fact I never really finished the drawing at all, and considering I drew her almost a decade ago, I probably never will. :smalltongue: Though I still like the design, so it doesn't mean I could draw her all over… preferably with a more action-oriented pose.
That sure is an interesting thing to wear to a fight...
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/54/fe/4d/54fe4d104d20ab1ca9d8b9faf3a58977.jpg)

[Ellrin]

That sure is an interesting thing to wear to a fight...
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/54/fe/4d/54fe4d104d20ab1ca9d8b9faf3a58977.jpg)

This is D&D we're talking about, there are entire character classes that are sort of obliged not to wear armor.

[Âmesang]

Guess I forgot to mention Ambrosia there's a succubus. :smalltongue: I figure when your bare flesh is tougher than most armor and you've got damage reduction on top of that… plus that monk's belt wrapped around her waist…

(My original intent was to go with a whip until I realized a spiked chain was superior… but that was before I learned about the whip dagger so if I ever bring her back I'll probably attempt to switch them… especially since her bard levels would give her free proficiency and it would more closely match a figurine I bought that resembles her.)

[daremetoidareyo]

Guess I forgot to mention Ambrosia there's a succubus. :smalltongue: I figure when your bare flesh is tougher than most armor and you've got damage reduction on top of that… plus that monk's belt wrapped around her waist…


I see the monks belt. What I don't see is any evidence of crotch covering attire. Like a a reverse fig leaf situation over here.

[Âmesang]

In the full-body image there should be a white band beneath the belt that was supposed to represent a thong. :smallconfused: In my own defense she's still wearing more than that flimsy piece of translucent cloth worn by the Monster Manual's succubus.

…also looking into the whip dagger again makes me want to steal Ivy Valentine's weapon from SoulCalibur. Maybe a swift action to switch between whip dagger and short sword? (The 3.5 version found in DRAGON #353, p.28, and DUNGEON #134, p.50, gives it the same damage and crit range as a short sword).

EDIT: Or maybe a one-level dip in lasher would be enough…