Today I learned something about the infamous "Junk"

[CrackedChair]

So does anybody remember the Boat called the "Junk" in This comic? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0418.html)

I recently learned from looking at wikipedia through a few pages pertaining to Oriental Adventures book that it's an actual boat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junk_(ship))

I can't believe I caught on sooner. I thought Lord Shojo just called it a Junk, for comedy sake!

Does anybody else know this?

[tomandtish]

Yeah, sorry. I knew about the type of boat called a Junk well before I knew the other meaning. That second meaning seems relatively recent to me (I'm 48).

[Peelee]

I knew a junk was a type of ship, I just didn't know what type. Similar to how I couldn't recognise a flying jib.

[Emanick]

This is the opposite of my experience. I read the comic well before I knew that "junk" was a term for, um, a wiener.

[ti'esar]

If you look in the table of contents (or the print edition), the title of 418 actually is "It's a Type of Boat".

[Gift Jeraff]

Junk can also mean trash.

[Peelee]

Junk can also mean trash.

I believe you mean treasure.

[Random Sanity]

I believe you mean treasure.

Depends on if you're selling or buying.

[Knaight]

This was old news to me, but I've read a decent amount of Chinese literature and made a point of trying to learn Chinese history (as part of trying to patch the gigantic geographical holes in the sad joke that is a "World History" class in the U.S.), and English is my native language - so while I'd guess that it's a pretty obvious pun that most people reading it would get that's from the perspective of someone with enough expertise to make my memory of the default knowledge level fuzzy.

[factotum]

I'm with tomandtish--I knew that a junk was a type of ship. In fact, I didn't even know about the "penis" meaning when I read that strip, so the entire joke went over my head--somebody had to explain it to me in the comments thread.

[Bedinsis]

When I read that strip I didn't know that "junk" was the word for a kind of ship. I also was uncertain of if it could be used to refer to genitalia; I just assumed that was the case from the context. English isn't my native language, so that might be to be expected.

Speaking of language barriers, when reading this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0212.html) I didn't know what bumping uglies meant. From context I assumed Miko has interpreted the situation correctly, and thought the gag was that Haley described something proper in a mocking way.

[Finagle]

It's a relic from an earlier age of D&D players that were interested in history. Specifically, historical equipment like swords, fortifications, navies, phalanxes, and that sort of thing. I can remember designing my character's castle with barbicans, portcullises, murder holes, and so on. Kind of like 2D Minecraft with graph paper. Today, history is a gigantic bore and playing D&D is more like interactive improv theater. It's due to the popularity of gaming in the mainstream population, back then it was a small set of nerdy boys.

[2D8HP]

Yeah, sorry. I knew about the type of boat called a Junk well before I knew the other meaning. That second meaning seems relatively recent to me (I'm 48).


Same here, every word.

I also got to sail on a "Junk" (stop that!) as a youth (quit it already!) that was owned by friends of my parents.

[Gift Jeraff]

I believe you mean treasure.

Pirates are commonly associated with treasure, so in a sense all uses of the word involve seamen.

[KorvinStarmast]

It's a relic from an earlier age of D&D players that were interested in history. Yeah, hence the proliferation of pole arms by E.G.G. in various articles, even though later weapons scholars still scratch their heads at his nomenclature.
Specifically, historical equipment like swords, fortifications, navies, phalanxes, and that sort of thing. I can remember designing my character's castle with barbicans, portcullises, murder holes, and so on. D&D got me interested in studying medieval history. When I ended up in Europe while in the Navy, it informed my choices of where I'd visit on my liberty time.
Today, history is a gigantic bore and playing D&D is more like interactive improv theater. It's due to the popularity of gaming in the mainstream population, back then it was a small set of nerdy boys. It was created by a set of nerdy men. The war gamers of the 60's and early 1970's were men, by and large, a few women, and a growing number of teenaged boys. Avalon Hill sold a lot of games to both men and boys. There was also the all-time favorite Diplomacy, Risk, Stragego, a bunch of stuff from SPI (Sniper, Legion, Viking ...), and numerous others.

Tim Kask used to refer to some of the historically obsessed miniatures as "twitchers." I'll find a link to his description if I can, but it usually manifested itself as a behavior at conventions or at game tables where two players would get into intense arguments over values and details of a particular era's weapons and armor ... to the point where they'd start to twitch.

Quite frankly, it was a good era for war gaming and D&D. But there were definitely a strong core of nerds.

PS: history is not a gigantic bore.

I knew about Chinese junks as a kid. We learned about the opium wars in Junior High.

[ORione]

It's also a type of food.

[Riftwolf]

I took a while to get the other junk reference as I'm British and we've other innuendos. But having a junk named 'My Junk' is entirely Shojo's style.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I knew both meanings when I read it, so I guess I'm in the sweet spot of the younger generation that knows the slang but is also interested in history. :smalltongue:

[goodpeople25]

Still no mention of the strips title? But yeah I knew both relevant meanings. Think I read something as a kid with different types of boats in it (not sure what may have been in the collection of encyclopedias that my Grandma had/has) and I think it came up a few times afterword. The slang is just that, picked it up at some point.

[Lord Torath]

Still no mention of the strips title?
Here:
If you look in the table of contents (or the print edition), the title of 418 actually is "It's a Type of Boat".Ti'esar beat you by about 16 hours. :smallwink:

[goodpeople25]

Here:Ti'esar beat you by about 16 hours. :smallwink:
Thus the question, if I could actually trust my eyes (or wear my glasses more) to search the whole thread perfectly I would of phrased it stronger. :smallsmile:

[Rogar Demonblud]

And again my age shows, because I've known what a junk was since I saw Swiss Family Robinson (in the theater, mind you).

[dps]

I find it difficult to imagine the level of ignorance necessary to not know that a junk is a type of ship. It's almost on the level of not knowing that there was a World War II.

[Peelee]

I find it difficult to imagine the level of ignorance necessary to not know that a junk is a type of ship. It's almost on the level of not knowing that there was a World War II.

I, too, equate one of the most significant and well-known events of the 20th century to a type of Chinese ship.

[factotum]

I, too, equate one of the most significant and well-known events of the 20th century to a type of Chinese ship.

Another darned sarcasm detector overloaded--you know how expensive these things are? :smallamused:

[Peelee]

Another darned sarcasm detector overloaded--you know how expensive these things are? :smallamused:

Send me the invoice, I'll take care of it.

[Dr.Zero]

Yeah, sorry. I knew about the type of boat called a Junk well before I knew the other meaning. That second meaning seems relatively recent to me (I'm 48).

Same here. Of course I knew the name in my own language ("giunca") but being them really close phonetically I had no problem to understand it.
Fun fact: I knew the other two meanings as well.
Instead I discovered THAT meaning from this comic, after I remained perplexed for a little while... then, thinking about the shape of the ship... well, let's say that it helped in guessing. :smallbiggrin:

[Onyavar]

I read over the strip in question pretty quickly, ten years ago. I remember sitting there with a :smallconfused: on my face, then klicking the next strip. In my language, the famous oriental boat is a 'Dschunke' (read jun-ke), so I missed the double entendres even with Belkar lampshading it.

It's only when I got involved with the translation stuff, years later, that I had to actively search for a joke there.
Edit: In my translation, I added a name to the ship. Re-translated it's now called "best piece", a term used in trash romance novels for... you know, junks.

[Finagle]

A lot of these posters are pointing out something I hadn't considered before: how embarrassingly "America First" OOTS is. We really need to appeal to a more global audience and cut down the references that only native speakers of English will get. Sales will be higher too, who knows how many sales have been lost due to people not getting the references at all.

[Razade]

I believe you mean treasure.

Depends on if you're One Man or Another Man.


It's a relic from an earlier age of D&D players that were interested in history. Specifically, historical equipment like swords, fortifications, navies, phalanxes, and that sort of thing. I can remember designing my character's castle with barbicans, portcullises, murder holes, and so on. Kind of like 2D Minecraft with graph paper. Today, history is a gigantic bore and playing D&D is more like interactive improv theater. It's due to the popularity of gaming in the mainstream population, back then it was a small set of nerdy boys.

Yeah and we had to do our ThAC0 in the snow! Up a hill! Both ways!!!


A lot of these posters are pointing out something I hadn't considered before: how embarrassingly "America First" OOTS is. We really need to appeal to a more global audience and cut down the references that only native speakers of English will get. Sales will be higher too, who knows how many sales have been lost due to people not getting the references at all.

Rich is from the United States. The majority of the reading population is from the United States. Dungeons and Dragons is primarily played in the United States. You'd confuse significantly more people trying to get broader appeal than keeping it the way it is. The internet is a thing and people can Google if they're confused.

[2D8HP]

Yeah and we had to do our ThAC0 in the snow! Up a hill! Both ways!!!


That's a Sig!

[Emanick]

A lot of these posters are pointing out something I hadn't considered before: how embarrassingly "America First" OOTS is. We really need to appeal to a more global audience and cut down the references that only native speakers of English will get. Sales will be higher too, who knows how many sales have been lost due to people not getting the references at all.

I don't know about others, but I've long since accepted that I will not get every reference in OOTS. Virtually nobody does (there's one particularly obscure one the Giant pointed out from comic #190 or so where a Lantern Archon references a Green Lantern actor during a period from an abortive continuity, which "like six people" probably ever got). I don't think this much affects my enjoyment of the comic; this isn't T.S. Eliot, where every line is laden with double or triple meanings and you get exponentially more out of the work if you understand the references. If anything, cutting down on the amount of random pop culture references would probably just decrease the charm of the comic, which would also negatively affect sales.

[ti'esar]

A minor point, but: when was that? I know where the bit with the lantern archons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0194.html) was, but I always thought the demon roaches were referencing Kyle Rayner, the primary Green Lantern of the latter 1990s - not a "man-on-the-street" recognizable name, but not that obscure if you have more than a passing familiarity with the series.

[Finagle]

Rich is from the United States. The majority of the reading population is from the United States. Dungeons and Dragons is primarily played in the United States. You'd confuse significantly more people trying to get broader appeal than keeping it the way it is. The internet is a thing and people can Google if they're confused.

Well, I just think that America-centric behavior is a negative and needs to be called out publicly. We all need to think globally if we're ever going to make any progress. I never realized how inaccessible a lot of the humor is before this thread.

[Razade]

Well, I just think that America-centric behavior is a negative and needs to be called out publicly. We all need to think globally if we're ever going to make any progress. I never realized how inaccessible a lot of the humor is before this thread.

You know how else it's inaccessible? A lot of it relies on knowing things like comic books and fiction and board games and all sorts of things that people aren't generally going to get. It's not "America-centic" by the way, if you're really that concerned about "America-centric" things you should be saying U.S-centric. Canada, Mexico and all the rest of South America is America and all you're doing is talking about the U.S.

Believe it or not but a niche comic that appeals to a further niche market not having "global appeal" isn't going to impede the progress of world peace or understanding.

[2D8HP]

A lot of these posters are pointing out something I hadn't considered before: how embarrassingly "America First" OOTS is. We really need to appeal to a more global audience and cut down the references that only native speakers of English will get.


No way no how!

I really like the posts from non-Americans at this Forum, but isn't enough of modern entertainment (The Transformers movies, etc.) all spectacle, and no language?

Let's have some place left for allusions based on shared "mythologies"


"Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra".

"Picard and Dathon at El-Adrel"

Even if it isn't their usual language, I don't think the language based jokes in OotS hurt much (does it?).

[dtilque]

Well, I don't always get the jokes, but that's why I read this forum. Someone is sure to get them and will explain them.

Of course, there was one time that almost the entire forum was stumped: second last panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0746.html). (for those who still don't get it: this (http://kukla.tv/arts.html))

[Razade]

Well, I don't always get the jokes, but that's why I read this forum. Someone is sure to get them and will explain them.

Of course, there was one time that almost the entire forum was stumped: second last panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0746.html). (for those who still don't get it: this (http://kukla.tv/arts.html))

Oh, I thought it was a reference to things like H.R Puffenstuff. Which made it just as funny.


See, I didn't even get the direct reference and still found something from my culture that made it funny.

[Onyavar]

A lot of these posters are pointing out something I hadn't considered before: how embarrassingly "America First" OOTS is. We really need to appeal to a more global audience and cut down the references that only native speakers of English will get. Sales will be higher too[..]

No. That's not what I meant, at all. It's nice of you to acknowledge the existence of other cultures, but there's no reason to alter the jokes, especially when the Internet and the international pop culture is mainly dominated by America anyway.

And sales to Europe will only rise once the ridiculous transport costs are eliminated. There's this freaking huge ocean between us throttling the sales. Build a bridge or a dam or an ocean floor subway, or do the shipping per ship again instead of airplanes. THAT will rise sales.


Rich is from the United States. The majority of the reading population is from the United States. Dungeons and Dragons is primarily played in the United States. You'd confuse significantly more people trying to get broader appeal than keeping it the way it is. The internet is a thing and people can Google if they're confused.

You'd be surprised about the international popularity of both OotS and D&D. But in the essence, you're right. Because the popularity doesn't count. Again, it's the paying audience that matters, and paying +150% delivery fees just reduces the general willingness to order something.

[Peelee]

I don't know about others, but I've long since accepted that I will not get every reference in OOTS. Virtually nobody does (there's one particularly obscure one the Giant pointed out from comic #190 or so where a Lantern Archon references a Green Lantern actor during a period from an abortive continuity, which "like six people" probably ever got)

What? There's a reference I didn't get? I demand a refund!

[factotum]

What? There's a reference I didn't get? I demand a refund!

Your cheque for $0.00 will be the post directly, sir. Sorry for the inconvenience. :smallamused:

[snowblizz]

Well, I just think that America-centric behavior is a negative and needs to be called out publicly.

There is certainly "America centric" behaviour in many places here and otherwise. I fail to see it in this case, and I get the junk jokes. And I'm neither American or English and English should be my third language really (more like second nowadays).

I'm also one who thinks that knowing about Chinese junks is normal, I read about them in a book about ships when I was like 10 or something. If anything would say the fairly broad knowledge about things sometimes needed to understand the jokes is if anything, anti-american. (yes that's a MURICA! joke, deal with it):smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:


Your cheque for $0.00 will be the post directly, sir. Sorry for the inconvenience. :smallamused:

Don't forget to charge him for shipping and handling though.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Your cheque for $0.00 will be the post directly, sir. Sorry for the inconvenience. :smallamused:

Hey! I cashed it in, and it bounced!

GW

[Peelee]

Your cheque for $0.00 will be the post directly, sir. Sorry for the inconvenience. :smallamused:


Hey! I cashed it in, and it bounced!

GW

I checked both posts in front of my house, and it wasn't in either of them. No wonder, its been nicked!

[Miriel]

A lot of these posters are pointing out something I hadn't considered before: how embarrassingly "America First" OOTS is. We really need to appeal to a more global audience and cut down the references that only native speakers of English will get. Sales will be higher too, who knows how many sales have been lost due to people not getting the references at all.
My first language is French, and I think that would be a terrible idea. Reducing language-specific references wouldn't make the comic stronger, it would make it weaker. If humour is a significant part of the comic, then people who don't speak the original language very well cannot be the target audience, because jokes rarely translate well anyway. Trying to make a comic that appeals equally to everyone is the definition of going for the lowest common denominator. Better make something strong that appeals to the people it tries to appeal than something bland that's equally vanilla to everyone.

(And btw, for someone who wants to call out the Giant as US-centric, it's ironic that you say "America" everywhere as a stand in for the US, which can be irritating to people living elsewhere on the continent.)

As far as this joke is concerned, it confused me for a moment at the beginning. I knew about the ship as a "jonque", but I didn't know the translation. It was close enough for me to make the connection, though, so it got through all right after a moment of uncertainty. However, apparently I got it better than some native English speaker, so it's not a matter of being centered on the US.

The main issue with international accessibility isn't understanding the jokes, it's shipping costs, as someone else pointed out. Last I checked, even just shipping accross the Canadian border increases shipping costs to absurd levels. I got most of the books through the Kickstarter, but otherwise I probably won't order anything until all the books are out.

[littlebum2002]

There is certainly "America centric" behaviour in many places here and otherwise. I fail to see it in this case, and I get the junk jokes. And I'm neither American or English and English should be my third language really (more like second nowadays).

I'm also one who thinks that knowing about Chinese junks is normal, I read about them in a book about ships when I was like 10 or something. If anything would say the fairly broad knowledge about things sometimes needed to understand the jokes is if anything, anti-american. (yes that's a MURICA! joke, deal with it):smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:



Don't forget to charge him for shipping and handling though.

I just want to point out that English is your third language and yet you speak it better than like 80% of native speakers.


Also, did you guys hear about the pun that (supposedly) works in every language?

Where do cats go when they die? Purrgatory. (English)
¿A dónde van los gatos cuando mueren? Purgatorio. (Spanish)
‘Dove vanno i gatti quando muoiono? Nel purGATTOrio’ (Italian)
Où vont les chats quand ils meurent? Au purCHATtoire” (French)
“Para onde os gatos vão quando morrem? Para o purGATOrio” (Portugese)
Billiyan marne ke baad kahan jaati hain? Purrlok (Hindi)

I don't know if any of these make sense, I'm just quoting unverified stuff off the internet.

[Peelee]

I just want to point out that English is your third language and yet you speak it better than like 80% of native speakers.

Most often than not, if someone on the internet starts off with, "sorry for my English," it'll be impeccable.

[Quebbster]

Also, did you guys hear about the pun that (supposedly) works in every language?

Where do cats go when they die? Purrgatory. (English)
¿A dónde van los gatos cuando mueren? Purgatorio. (Spanish)
‘Dove vanno i gatti quando muoiono? Nel purGATTOrio’ (Italian)
Où vont les chats quand ils meurent? Au purCHATtoire” (French)
“Para onde os gatos vão quando morrem? Para o purGATOrio” (Portugese)
Billiyan marne ke baad kahan jaati hain? Purrlok (Hindi)

I don't know if any of these make sense, I'm just quoting unverified stuff off the internet.
A bit of a "black swan" joke since all you need to do to disprove it is come up with one language where it doesn't work. I can't make it work in Swedish, for example.
(and appropriately enough the "black swan" term doesn't work too well in Australia where most Swans are in fact black...)

Most often than not, if someone on the internet starts off with, "sorry for my English," it'll be impeccable.
Yes, we tend to apply ourselves a Little more Before posting. I don't know how many people I have surprised with my nationality across the internet...

[factotum]

Yes, we tend to apply ourselves a Little more Before posting. I don't know how many people I have surprised with my nationality across the internet...

In my experience, people from Scandinavian countries always seem to speak very good English. I don't know why that is, though--something to do with similarities between English grammar and your native language, perhaps?

[Rodin]

In my experience, people from Scandinavian countries always seem to speak very good English. I don't know why that is, though--something to do with similarities between English grammar and your native language, perhaps?

And today I learned that both Swedish and English are both Germanic languages. I always had in my head that English was a Romance language due to how much French/Italian/whatever I'm able to read just by knowing English. Turns out that's just a combination of Roman influence and English's tendency of bonking other languages on the head and rummaging through their pockets for handy words.

[Quebbster]

In my experience, people from Scandinavian countries always seem to speak very good English. I don't know why that is, though--something to do with similarities between English grammar and your native language, perhaps?
It certainly doesn't hurt, though English and the various Scandinavian languages aren't that closely related. I believe German is a closer relative in the Germanic language family, but I certainly don't find German easier to speak. :)
I think a big reason for our fluency is that in Scandinavia foreign movies and TV shows are subtitled instead of dubbed, so we are exposed to a lot of English through the pop culture. Hearing it a lot makes it a lot easier to get a feel for the nuances of the language.

And today I learned that both Swedish and English are both Germanic languages. I always had in my head that English was a Romance language due to how much French/Italian/whatever I'm able to read just by knowing English. Turns out that's just a combination of Roman influence and English's tendency of bonking other languages on the head and rummaging through their pockets for handy words.
Yeah, that's a big reason why English is one of the hardest languages in the world to learn. It just copies the words it needs from other languages wholesale, and as a result there's no consistency in spelling or pronounciation...

[Grey_Wolf_c]

In my experience, people from Scandinavian countries always seem to speak very good English. I don't know why that is, though--something to do with similarities between English grammar and your native language, perhaps?

A good education system which introduces them to English right off the bat would be my guess. That's why my English is as good as it is (that, and continuous practice, mind you... some of my school fellows have by now managed to forget what they learnt).

GW

[Quebbster]

A good education system which introduces them to English right off the bat would be my guess. That's why my English is as good as it is (that, and continuous practice, mind you... some of my school fellows have by now managed to forget what they learnt).

GW

Certainly doesn't hurt. My son is finishing second grade this year and already has enough English competency to hold a simple conversation in English. Of course, he is a blossoming nerd too and picks up quite a bit from his interest in Minecraft and Pokemon...

[goodpeople25]

Huh, the thing that kinda bothered me out of the stuff involving US centric was the idea that mostly just Americans (as in from the US as I now suspect but even North America is unfortunate) would get Jokes involving the English Language, Like other countries don't have people who speak it (this is more reaching I freely admit) or have it as their Language (One of two national languages in my case. but I have the french skills of a kindergartener)

Any America=USA implications I overlooked. (But yeah I live on that Continent, does get kinda irritating sometimes)

[Jasdoif]

Any America=USA implications I overlooked. (But yeah I live on that Continent, does get kinda irritating sometimes)Hm. I wonder if the rest of Europe has a similar problem with the European Union.

[goodpeople25]

Hm. I wonder if the rest of Europe has a similar problem with the European Union.
I think that is quite possible but I don't really know that much about what they would think.

Also is this just a thought built off of mine (or whatever is a better term) or did I imply something about that subject that I missed? A little anxious about how you worded that.

[martianmister]

I think Finagle is "sarcastic" in his own way, considering what he wrote before:


Oh, no. The author went full SJW. You never go full SJW.

[Jasdoif]

Also is this just a thought built off of mine (or whatever is a better term) or did I imply something about that subject that I missed? A little anxious about how you worded that.The former.


I mean, it's the United States of America: it's a union of states in North America (with the debatable exception of Hawaii), each of which had their own region-derived names well before they joined up with the rest. Theoretically, state-based demonyms like Oregonian or Alabamian would be the equivalent of, say, Canadian or Mexican (all are which are derived from the names of either the regions or a feature of the region); by comparison, "American" is like "no, there's nothing really special about the geography, it just happens to be in North America".

The closest parallel I could think of to do a compare-and-contrast with, in the "union of continent" functional naming scheme, is the European Union...which as far I can determine does use "European" as a demonym.

[Quebbster]

Generally speaking, people don't have a problem keeping the European Union separate from the continent of Europe.
It's not at all the same thing as keeping the United States of America separate from the continent of North (and South) America.

[2D8HP]

Most often than not, if someone on the internet starts off with, "sorry for my English," it'll be impeccable.


My wife speaks (and writes) much better English than I do, and it is her second language.

And I remember a young lady 28 years ago, who that was also true of.


....Theoretically, state-based demonyms like Oregonian or Alabamian would be the equivalent of, say, Canadian or Mexican (all are which are derived from the names of either the regions or a feature of the region); by comparison, "American" is like "no, there's nothing really special about the geography, it just happens to be in North America"...


I did a search of my own posts, and I found that I use these words:

California, 61 times.

America, 22 times.

American, 19 times, and

Californian, 8 times.

[snowblizz]

I just want to point out that English is your third language and yet you speak it better than like 80% of native speakers.
I believe you mean I *type* it very well. :smalltongue: Benefits of the world's best primary school system. And like I was saying, absolutely works more like a second language.
The point I was trying to make clear though was that any point I make about "America centricness" comes as an outsider. Because I know I can fake being a native speaker quite well online.


And today I learned that both Swedish and English are both Germanic languages. I always had in my head that English was a Romance language due to how much French/Italian/whatever I'm able to read just by knowing English. Turns out that's just a combination of Roman influence and English's tendency of bonking other languages on the head and rummaging through their pockets for handy words.
An interesting thing I learnt some years ago is that English and Scandinavian languages are much more similar than what has been thought. Unlike other languages English took words from, when it comes to Scandinavian languages (or more properly ancient Norse I guess) English seems to have taken on grammar and other linguistic structure. It may well be that English tried mugging the wrong viking in a York backstreet and that today's English is really Norse wearing a stolen coat with 1 previous owner.


A good education system which introduces them to English right off the bat would be my guess. That's why my English is as good as it is (that, and continuous practice, mind you... some of my school fellows have by now managed to forget what they learnt).

GWThat's absolutely one major factor. The other part is probably as Quebbster suggests being thoroughly exposed to English language by getting the vast majority of English speaking programming with text and not dubbed. Not to mention being so exposed to "anglo-saxon" culture too. Other European countries have large domestic markets, in Scandinavia we got to fill the void with something, and that something is usually something in English.


Hm. I wonder if the rest of Europe has a similar problem with the European Union.
Well the English might (see what I did there?)*, but then again since last year we stopped careing what they thought about the matter. Today though, the EU covers the vast majority of countries that would be described as "European", and quite a few of those left aspire to join.



*In many places UK, Britain and England are essentially synonymous, I hazard to say most europeans who speak about England mean the whole thing ruled by the iron fist of Queen Bessy Deux and not just the Southern 2/3rds or however much it is.

[factotum]

An interesting thing I learnt some years ago is that English and Scandinavian languages are much more similar than what has been thought. Unlike other languages English took words from, when it comes to Scandinavian languages (or more properly ancient Norse I guess) English seems to have taken on grammar and other linguistic structure.

Parts of what are now England were actually under Scandinavian rule for well over a century--see the Danelaw, which existed from around 800AD to 954AD. The languages mingled a lot back then.

[Peelee]

*In many places UK, Britain and England are essentially synonymous, I hazard to say most europeans who speak about England mean the whole thing ruled by the iron fist of Queen Bessy Deux and not just the Southern 2/3rds or however much it is.

Yeah, but it's not like England is a real country or anything. He says as he starts making for the exit, whistling innocuously.

[snowblizz]

Parts of what are now England were actually under Scandinavian rule for well over a century--see the Danelaw, which existed from around 800AD to 954AD. The languages mingled a lot back then.

In addition to language skills my primary school taught me history and geography thank-you-very-much.

Neither before nor since has English borrowed so many fundamental words and underlying grammar, it was argued IIRC. Unlike later on and how it normally goes, not only did English take words for new things, but they replaced existing basic words for everyday occurences.

This article http://sciencenordic.com/english-scandinavian-language here explains the idea quite nicely. I find it rather compelling.

[Samzat]

So we started this talking about Hinjo's junk and ended up in linguistics? Only on GitP would this, and not the opposite, occur :smalltongue:
samzat scared. talky men all over, talk so brain hurt

[factotum]

In addition to language skills my primary school taught me history and geography thank-you-very-much.

The Danelaw isn't something I learned in history at my school here in the UK--history pretty much started at 1066 as far as they were concerned. I guess the reach might have got a bit broader if I'd studied history at higher level, but alas, I went the physics/mathematics route.

[Onyavar]

So we started this talking about Hinjo's junk and ended up in linguistics? [...]

Naturally.

Well, I wonder how the Chinese would think about this comic. After all, a junk is just a '帆船' (fanchuan) in chinese. The first of the characters means 'sail'. The second 'boat'. Boat has a sail? --> Junk. (except that the Chinese noticed there are other types of ships, eventually, and renamed their junks into "chinese sailing boat".

Imagine how hard it must be to translate the joke into Chinese!


Well, I just think that America-centric behavior is a negative and needs to be called out publicly. We all need to think globally if we're ever going to make any progress. I never realized how inaccessible a lot of the humor is before this thread.

Hm. I wonder if the rest of Europe has a similar problem with the European Union.
The rest of Europe isn't that much, actually. (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:EU28-states_with_applications.svg) Some countries who really want to join but aren't yet allowed, and some others who are so well off that they don't need to join the club.

This stuff about "America != USA" is a load of stink, in my opinion. The same people (in Europe and all over the world) who whine about this pervasive "American culture" as a bad thing, are probably not complaining about Fajitas, Samba and cuban cigars. No, they mean movies, software, coke and burgers, and they feel bad about having access to - or god-forbid even enjoying - these products.

Who do you call "American", "European" (or "Asian")? It boils down to the question if you feel that you're part of an identity behind that name. "Europe", like "America", is a political fiction. The more people believe in it, the more they're part of this identity, this fiction. And the more united they can be about it. Be it good or bad or neither.

[P.S. I'll shut up now, before I start becoming political]

[2D8HP]

Parts of what are now England were actually under Scandinavian rule for well over a century--see the Danelaw, which existed from around 800AD to 954AD. The languages mingled a lot back then.


Don't forget the MOST IMPORTANT legacy of the Scandanavian occupation of Britain:

This Song (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2znL-noohI)!

:wink:

[Dr.Zero]

Also, did you guys hear about the pun that (supposedly) works in every language?

Where do cats go when they die? Purrgatory. (English)
¿A dónde van los gatos cuando mueren? Purgatorio. (Spanish)
‘Dove vanno i gatti quando muoiono? Nel purGATTOrio’ (Italian)
Où vont les chats quand ils meurent? Au purCHATtoire” (French)
“Para onde os gatos vão quando morrem? Para o purGATOrio” (Portugese)
Billiyan marne ke baad kahan jaati hain? Purrlok (Hindi)

I don't know if any of these make sense, I'm just quoting unverified stuff off the internet.

It works in italian (I heard it before) and it seems legit in spanish and portuguese, for what I can say.
But, oh my, you'd get a lot of rolling eyes with this one. :smallbiggrin:

[Peelee]

I just want to point out that English is your third language and yet you speak it better than like 80% of native speakers.


Also, did you guys hear about the pun that (supposedly) works in every language?

Where do cats go when they die? Purrgatory. (English)
¿A dónde van los gatos cuando mueren? Purgatorio. (Spanish)
‘Dove vanno i gatti quando muoiono? Nel purGATTOrio’ (Italian)
Où vont les chats quand ils meurent? Au purCHATtoire” (French)
“Para onde os gatos vão quando morrem? Para o purGATOrio” (Portugese)
Billiyan marne ke baad kahan jaati hain? Purrlok (Hindi)

I don't know if any of these make sense, I'm just quoting unverified stuff off the internet.

Also, there's a man of comedy - really, a man of legend - who was able to make countless jokes work in across virtually every culture.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bv40DHpIgAAOH3e.jpg

[dtilque]

Don't forget the MOST IMPORTANT legacy of the Scandanavian occupation of Britain:

This Song (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2znL-noohI)!

:wink:

And this important contribution (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anwy2MPT5RE)

[2D8HP]

And this important contribution (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anwy2MPT5RE)


Well done.

Well done indeed.

[Bohandas]

I just want to point out that English is your third language and yet you speak it better than like 80% of native speakers.


Also, did you guys hear about the pun that (supposedly) works in every language?

Where do cats go when they die? Purrgatory. (English)
¿A dónde van los gatos cuando mueren? Purgatorio. (Spanish)
‘Dove vanno i gatti quando muoiono? Nel purGATTOrio’ (Italian)
Où vont les chats quand ils meurent? Au purCHATtoire” (French)
“Para onde os gatos vão quando morrem? Para o purGATOrio” (Portugese)
Billiyan marne ke baad kahan jaati hain? Purrlok (Hindi)

I don't know if any of these make sense, I'm just quoting unverified stuff off the internet.

The italian, franch and portugese versions rely on a different cat pun than the english version (the spanish and hndi versions may too, I'm not sure)

[Knaight]

The italian, franch and portugese versions rely on a different cat pun than the english version (the spanish and hndi versions may too, I'm not sure)

I suspect it does; I can't verify the standard onomatopoeia for a purr in Spanish but can verify that there's a pun in "Purgatorio" involving the word for cat (gato).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I can't verify the standard onomatopoeia for a purr in Spanish

"Ronronear", so it does not work as a pun of purgatory.

GW

[Knaight]

"Ronronear", so it does not work as a pun of purgatory.

GW

I assume that it has heavily rolled "r"s?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I assume that it has heavily rolled "r"s?

Thankfully Spanish, unlike English, has really strong rules, with few or no exceptions. The rule for 'r's is that an 'r' is "rolled" (in Spanish, it's called "strong r") when not surrounded by vowels (including when it's the first letter of the word). Therefore, ronronear does indeed have two strong ("rolled") 'r's. I'd have to check with a local if the last one too is considered a strong R, though - I think it technically is, but not sure it can be pronounced as such - I can't anyway.

Words that call for a strong r between two vowels double the 'r' to indicate this - the classic example I'm sure I've seen in every one of my Spanish language books is pera (pear) vs perra (female dog). Since perra can carry the same connotations as English's "bitch", you don't want to get them confused.

Grey Wolf

[Cazero]

The italian, franch and portugese versions rely on a different cat pun than the english version (the spanish and hndi versions may too, I'm not sure)
The french version also breaks pronunciation of the original word to make the word for cat apparent. You can't simply emphasise a part of the word, and it radically changes the feel of the pun.

[Dr.Zero]

The italian, franch and portugese versions rely on a different cat pun than the english version (the spanish and hndi versions may too, I'm not sure)

Of course for the different reasons, yet it works.


The french version also breaks pronunciation of the original word to make the word for cat apparent. You can't simply emphasise a part of the word, and it radically changes the feel of the pun.

I don't know about french, but, for example, in italian, that is pretty simple to accomplish.
"Pur-(little beat)-gatto-(little beat)-rio."

Not sure if it works in french, since it depends on the fact that you can syllabify the word without changing the phonetic result of the totality. (Which happens normally for italian words).

[Wardog]

Parts of what are now England were actually under Scandinavian rule for well over a century--see the Danelaw, which existed from around 800AD to 954AD. The languages mingled a lot back then.

Ditto for Scotland and Ireland (mostly Norwegians, I think, rather than Danes as in England).
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/50/Viking_Expansion.svg/800px-Viking_Expansion.svg.png
Consequently Scots and Scots English have a lot of Norse influences as well.

[hamishspence]

Yup - mostly the islands (Orkney, for example, was Norse from 875 to 1472)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_Scotland

[137beth]

I initially thought that it was just an old, battered boat, and hence could be considered trash (i.e., "junk") by anyone who isn't desperately trying to evacuate as many people as possible and needs every boat that even has a chance of setting sale.

[Lissou]

I didn't know either meaning when I read the strip, but I picked up both of them from context. I did know the meaning of "garbage" though.

[Vinyadan]

Hm. I wonder if the rest of Europe has a similar problem with the European Union.

I think Europe (and the EU) is just too diverse linguistically and culturally to have this kind of problem because of something as recent as the EU.

Now, if you go "Ukrainians are Russians", that is very very widespread, and they will accurately explain you the story of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and anything else before and after.

Another one is not being able to tell Norway and Sweden apart. And that Finland speaks something Germanic.

And the best one is thinking Rumanians are Slavs, which is also quite widespread (they are linguistically Latin). Or that Roma = Rumanian. Or that Moldavians are ruled by Viktor Von Doom. Or not knowing the difference between Romania and Bulgaria. Or which Balkan countries are independent and which ones aren't.

Or which one is Slovakia and which one is the Czech Republic.

[Lissou]

Just realised nobody completely explained the French version of the purgatory pun. Like the other romance languages, it uses the word for cat (chat, pronounced "shah"), not the word for purring. However, indeed the word is changed for "purgatoire" to "purchatoire" (meaning a "sh" sound instead of a "g" sound) which isn't required in the other languages.

When I was a kid, I called the cats I then had "chocolate cake" and "vanilla" cake in French. Why? Because cake in French is "gateau", pronounced like the Spanish word for cake cat (which my cousin, who is Puerto Rican, taught me when we were kids).
The cats were both grey. Not sure why one was chocolate and the other vanilla. *shrugs*.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

pronounced like the Spanish word for cat

FTFY (just a typo on your part, but might not be clear to anyone not acquainted with both French and Spanish)

GW

[Lissou]

FTFY (just a typo on your part, but might not be clear to anyone not acquainted with both French and Spanish)

GW

Thanks, I fixed it. Silly mistake :P

[halfeye]

A lot of these posters are pointing out something I hadn't considered before: how embarrassingly "America First" OOTS is. We really need to appeal to a more global audience and cut down the references that only native speakers of English will get. Sales will be higher too, who knows how many sales have been lost due to people not getting the references at all.
USAians are *native* speakers of English? :smalltongue::smallsmile:

[FreddyNoNose]

Depends on if you're One Man or Another Man.



Yeah and we had to do our ThAC0 in the snow! Up a hill! Both ways!!!



Rich is from the United States. The majority of the reading population is from the United States. Dungeons and Dragons is primarily played in the United States. You'd confuse significantly more people trying to get broader appeal than keeping it the way it is. The internet is a thing and people can Google if they're confused.

You had thAC0? Luxury. We only had 6 side dice and we loved it.

[Peelee]

You had thAC0? Luxury. We only had 6 side dice and we loved it.

Well look at Mr. Moneybags over here, with his d6. Why, back in my day, we each took turns being numbers 1-20, and had the DM throw a rock at us. Whoever got hit, that was the roll.

[Cazero]

Well look at Mr. Moneybags over here, with his d6. Why, back in my day, we each took turns being numbers 1-20, and had the DM throw a rock at us. Whoever got hit, that was the roll.
There is no way that's equiprobabilist. And the cheating opportunities are obvious. No wonder someone invented dice.

[2D8HP]

Numbered chits pulled out of a bag

[Peelee]

There is no way that's equiprobabilist. And the cheating opportunities are obvious. No wonder someone invented dice.

Well sure it was. We blindfolded the DM and everyone tried to push everyone else in front so they wouldn't get hit.

[Cazero]

Well sure it was. We blindfolded the DM and everyone tried to push everyone else in front so they wouldn't get hit.
Fair enough for the blindfold, but how does brawling help? The stronger people's number just won't come out. Cheating is still trivial.

[Peelee]

Fair enough for the blindfold, but how does brawling help? The stronger people's number just won't come out. Cheating is still trivial.

Well, we made sure to get all liquored up first, so coordination wasn't the best. Also, we did it on a merry-go-round to help the randomization factor.

I tell ya, D&D just ain't like it used to be.

[Cazero]

Well, we made sure to get all liquored up first, so coordination wasn't the best. Also, we did it on a merry-go-round to help the randomization factor.
I guess that works.
It also neatly explain how you can attribute all numbers from 1 to 20 by giving one to each of the 3 to 8 players.

[Lissou]

A lot of these posters are pointing out something I hadn't considered before: how embarrassingly "America First" OOTS is. We really need to appeal to a more global audience and cut down the references that only native speakers of English will get. Sales will be higher too, who knows how many sales have been lost due to people not getting the references at all.

This is not something that can be easily accomplished. The Giant is from the US, and may not be aware of what things are specifically American, and what other things are more international. It makes more sense to write about what you know, anyways, and it makes the oots world richer. Trying to create something everyone can relate to would probably have the side effect of making it pretty bland.
Whatever people don't culturally relate to will either be understood as being an American thing, or be assumed to be part of the fantasy universe oots takes place in. It's not a big deal. Plus, how are we going to learn otherwise? Being exposed to things that aren't familiar is pretty essential for human growth, and reading a comic should be an enriching experience.

[Doctor West]

It works in italian (I heard it before) and it seems legit in spanish and portuguese, for what I can say.
But, oh my, you'd get a lot of rolling eyes with this one. :smallbiggrin:

Late with this, but alas, I can confirm the pun just doesn't work in Japanese. The word for purgatory is 煉獄(rengoku).
The word for cat is 猫(neko) and the onomatopoeia for purring or meowing are ゴロゴロ(gorogoro) and にゃん(nyan) respectively.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

ゴロゴロ and にゃん

Those don't even look like they belong in the same alphabet, never mind the same cat.

GW

[FreddyNoNose]

Well look at Mr. Moneybags over here, with his d6. Why, back in my day, we each took turns being numbers 1-20, and had the DM throw a rock at us. Whoever got hit, that was the roll.

When I say d6 I really meant we had shards of broken glass with numbers scrawled on them with out own blood. But they were d6 to us.

[Peelee]

When I say d6 I really meant we had shards of broken glass with numbers scrawled on them with out own blood. But they were d6 to us.

Well, look at Mr. Moneybags over here with his shards of broken glass. OK, I honestly don't know how to make it more ridiculous than i already have.

[2D8HP]

Broken glass!

How fancy!

We had to knock out our own teeth to make dice!

[FreddyNoNose]

Broken glass!

How fancy!

We had to knock out our own teeth to make dice!

You try and tell kids today and they wouldn't believe it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo

[pearl jam]

Those don't even look like they belong in the same alphabet, never mind the same cat.

GW

Good eye, because they don't!

Technically the two phonetic writing systems for Japanese are syllabaries because the sounds each symbol represents are what we as English speakers would see as syllables rather than individual letters.

Japanese writing has two distinct sets of these that are generally each used in specific settings where the other would not be appropriate but there can in some cases be exceptions based on stylistic decisions.

にゃん was written in hiragana which is used for grammatical markers such as endings on verbs, conjunctions, etc as well as sometimes just to be a phonetic replacement for kanji for younger readers, among other things.

ゴロゴロ is written in katakana which can be used to mark words borrowed from other languages, onomatopoeia or in place of kanji for animal names in place of kanji, among other purposes.

Both were developed by taking elements used in writing the borrowed Chinese characters.

There was a similar one that is still used Taiwan for phonetic Chinese with some of the symbols identical to symbols in hiragana or katakana as well as some unique to that system.

[Vinyadan]

Broken glass!

How fancy!

We had to knock out our own teeth to make dice!

In ancient Greece, dice were made with human bones from the heel. OK, they actually were sheep bones, and were d4.

[Kami2awa]

This is not something that can be easily accomplished. The Giant is from the US, and may not be aware of what things are specifically American, and what other things are more international. It makes more sense to write about what you know, anyways, and it makes the oots world richer. Trying to create something everyone can relate to would probably have the side effect of making it pretty bland.
Whatever people don't culturally relate to will either be understood as being an American thing, or be assumed to be part of the fantasy universe oots takes place in. It's not a big deal. Plus, how are we going to learn otherwise? Being exposed to things that aren't familiar is pretty essential for human growth, and reading a comic should be an enriching experience.

There's a lot of reference to British humour as well, such as the Glaive-Glaive-Guisarme-Glaive sequence (Monty Python) or the Four Yorkshireman sketch.

Also, when it comes to history most of the history I've learnt has come from researching historical settings for RPGs (or Doctor Who fanfics).

Also, and I hate to link tvtropes, but here is a (probably not complete) list of references in OOTS:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/ShoutOut/TheOrderOfTheStick

[factotum]

There's a lot of reference to British humour as well, such as the Glaive-Glaive-Guisarme-Glaive sequence (Monty Python) or the Four Yorkshireman sketch.

British humour which is very popular in the States, so it's hardly surprising the Giant knows about it and would include a call-out.