LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread IV 2b or not 2b?

[Shamash]

Hello!
Welcome to the LGBT+ information thread. This thread is meant to answer all sorts of questions one may have about the community, and have a casual atmosphere.

As such, this is an education thread, not a support thread (which you can conveniently find there (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?493711-LGBTAI-58-Infinity-2-0-The-Darth-Arminius-Apology-Thread) instead). Why the split? Because the main thread is mostly populated by LGBT people who are seeking, well, support, and some questions or misunderstandings can be causes of additional stress. You can ask these questions here instead, and receive answers from LGBT people or allies. They can be as general or as precise as you want.

A couple things you need to know before browsing the rest of this thread:
- If you are LGBT+ but do not wish to educate people, or are likely to be offended by the lack of knowledge of some people, you're probably better off not reading this thread.
- If you have questions, go ahead! But try to stay polite and open-minded. If your question has an element of support (like “I think I might be transgender, how do I know for sure?” or “my LGBT friend has problems with their parents, how could I help?”), the support thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?493711-LGBTAI-58-Infinity-2-0-The-Darth-Arminius-Apology-Thread) may also help, so try there as well.
- avoid misinformation. If you don't know the answer, don't intentionally pull stuff out of your backside. If you do so repeatedly, I will hunt you down, and GM your next game, which will include Drizz't and a Kender as GMPCs. (Theoretically unenforceable? You can never be 100% sure. Don't tempt your luck.)
- Mind the forum rules and avoid the subjects of politics or religion (or sexually-explicit content for that matter). Otherwise, there is no subject that is preemptively banned, and we'd like it to stay this way; therefore, if a discussion upsets or angers you, report the offending posts (if a forum rule has actually been infringed) and/or step away from the computer until you calm down, instead of starting a flame war. This is the Internet. We're physically stuck behind your screen. The worst we can do is send stupid PMs until the inbox is full – and you don't even have to acknowledge their content before deleting them! We can't follow you and force you to keep arguing.
- No one here should be shunned here for unfortunately lacking some knowledge but desiring to learn. Nothing is self-evident, and that's even more true where gender and sexuality are concerned. (Now, if you request to be educated but act deliberately obtuse when replied to, you're gonna have a bad time. Don't be deliberately obtuse. Nobody likes morons.)

And, for reference, here is a list of commonly used words and definitions by our community. Please understand that this list is currently undergoing construction right now. Any contributions to the list are appreciated.
LGBT: Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans*

LGBTAI: LGBT+Asexual/Allies+Intersex+All Inclusive

QUILTBAG:
Q - Queer and Questioning
U - Unidentified
I - Intersex
L - Lesbian
T - Transgender, Transexual
B - Bisexual
A - Asexual, Agender, Aromantic
G - Gay, Genderqueer

Where a word below is in italics, that means it has it's own entry on the list.

A note on labels: many of these labels are seemingly interchangeable, and for some people they are. However, please do not presume to correct or judge another person's use of a label. Bisexual and Pansexual are especially tricky in this regard, as are transgender and transsexual to a lesser degree.
Often the difference in why one person feels one label is appropriate and not another is deeply personal. If you wish to know more it is probably a topic to seek private advice on, from one of the people listed in the next section.


AFAB/AMAB: Assigned Female/Male at Birth

Agender(ed): Someone who lacks a gender.

Androgyne: Gender Identity with male and female aspects.

Androsexual: A person who is attracted to men.

Aromantic: A person who does not feel any romantic feeling toward anyone, independently of sexual attraction.

Asexual: A person who does not feel any/some sexual attraction, independently of any romantic feeling.

Binary, The: See: Gender Binary.

Bisexual: 1. attracted to two genders; 2. attracted to one's own gender and another gender; 3. attracted to various genders; 4. attracted to people regardless of gender; 5. ask the person who says they're bi what exactly they mean by that. See also Pansexual

Cis: See: Cisgender

Cisgender (CG): Somebody whose gender and sex align.

Demisexual: A person who is sexually attracted to someone(s) only after they have formed an intense emotional relationship with.

Dysphoria: The disassociation Trans* people feel with their own body.

Male-to-Female (MtF): Someone who was assigned male at birth, but is female. (AKA: trans woman)

Female: See: Woman

Female-to-Male (FtM): Someone who was assigned female at birth, but is male. (AKA: trans man)

FAAB: Female Assigned at Birth.

Feminine: Something generally associated by society with women.

FFS: Facial Feminization Surgery: Surgery to reduce chin/nose/cheekbones. Associated primarily with MAAB Trans people

FtM: See: Female to Male

Gay: A man who is attracted to men.

Gender Binary: The commonly held notion that there are only men and women on two extremes, with nothing in between.

Gender Expression (GE): How one expresses their Gender Identity to society.

Gender Identity (GI): How one feels inside society's idea of "man, woman, or other".

Genderfluid: Someone who fluctuates between different genders.

Genderqueer (GQ): Someone who is not of a binary gender; someone who is not male or female.

Gynosexual: A person who is attracted to women.

Heterosexual: A person who is attracted to members of the opposite gender.

Homosexual: A person who is attracted to members of their gender.

HRT: Hormone replacement therapy. MtF's tend to progestrogens, oestrogens and androgen blockers, while FtM's take testosterone almost exculsively.

Lesbian: A woman who is attracted to women.

MAAB: Male Assigned at Birth.

Male-to-Female (MtF): Someone who was assigned male at birth, but is female. (AKA: trans woman)

Man/men: A cis man or trans man. Male.

Masculine: Something generally associated by society with men.

Pansexual: A person who is attracted to people regardless of gender. See also Bisexual

Polyamorous: A person who is interested in a relationship with more than one person.

Presenting: Trans* shorthand for appearing as their preferred gender, regardless of any HRT, SRS or other changes.

Trans*: Transsexual and Transgender primarily, with the asterisk denoting that the trans- prefix could be followed by any number of appropriate words. It also includes other labels, and is a catch-all term for people who identify as something other than their biological sex at birth.

Transgender: Used in reference to a person whose sex(body) and gender(mind) are at odds or do not match. A transgender person can also identify as genderqueer, transsexual, or may use transgender as their only identity.

Transitioning: The process a Trans* person undergoes to move to their preferred gender. Often includes HRT, SRS, FFS.

Transsexual: In common terms the same as transgender above. In medical terms refers specifically to people who wish to transition from male to female or female to male, not accommodating any other options.

SRS: Sex Reassignment Surgery: Surgery to replace/transform a vagina into a penis, or vice versa. Mastectomies or plastic surgery may be used on breasts.

Sexual Orientation (SO): How one identifies who they are attracted to.

Significant Other(s) (SO): Person(s) you are in a relationship with.

Third-gendered: Someone who fits in a local society's third gender, usually male performing female tasks, occasionally vice versa. Also a person who feels they do not identify with any other gender identity.

Woman: A cis woman or trans woman. Female.

Allies: Hetereosexual-Cisgender people who support equality for sexual, gender, and romantic minorities.


-Philemonite (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?74642-Philemonite), for gay-related subjects.
-Mono Vertigo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?59794-Mono-Vertigo), for asexuality-related subjects.
- Rain Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?66585-Rain-Dragon), for trans-related subjects (particularly trans men/FtM).
-Miriel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?66396-Miriel), for feminism, gender, asexuality, and trans-related subjects (particularly trans women/MtF).
-Golentan (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?39657-golentan) for bisexuality, genderfluidity/questioning-related subjects, and issues of childhood abuse.
-Irish Musician (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?62949-Irish-Musician) for cis/straight point of view on general LGBT+ subjects.
-Jormengand (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?71090-Jormengand) for bisexuality, trans, polyamory, and genderfluidity-related subjects.
-Arachu (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?41049-Arachu) for trans (particularly trans women/MtF), hormones, bisexuality, pansexuality, and polyamory-related subjects.
-Astrella (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?40288-Astrella) for trans (particularly trans women/FtM), LGBT+ rights, and lesbianly subjects. (Lesbianly is totally a word, shut up.*)
-Eldest (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?58767-Eldest) for bisexuality, pansexuality, polyamoury, and kink-related subjects (still keep it PG-13 please).
-Kesnit (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?251-Kesnit) for trans-related subjects (particularly trans men/FtM).



*this is why savvy people don't usually let me manage a thread.


Shameless copied from Mono Vertigo.

Previous thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?510456-LGBTAI-Question-and-Discussion-Thread-III-Third-Time-s-A-Charm&p=21540100#post21540100)

[Kalmageddon]

Oh thank you for opening this, much appreciated.
So, I have a question: my girlfriend is very involved with the LGBT community and frequently goes to pride marches and stuff like that. I'm seeing this as a good occasion to support equality and get to know her from yet another point of view and I'm thinking of accompanying her to the next one.
She's very happy about it and, when I asked her if there was anything I needed to know she said that no, I'd be fine just being myself.
However, I'm far more disenchanted than her when it comes to people and I know that there is a significant amount of zealotry and intolerance in the LGBT community that I should consider before putting myself in a vulnerable position.
So, my question is this: what kind of etiquette should a heterosexual couple adopt when going to a pride parade in order to avoid setting anyone off?

Edit: to clarify, I'm not worried about the tolerant and open minded people that I will find there, those are the reason I'm going and I find them fantastic, I'm worried about the very vocal and militant minority that will be looking for an excuse to pick up a fight or push me away. So I don't want to give them any opening.

[Shamash]

Oh thank you for opening this, much appreciated.
So, I have a question: my girlfriend is very involved with the LGBT community and frequently goes to pride marches and stuff like that. I'm seeing this as a good occasion to support equality and get to know her from yet another point of view and I'm thinking of accompanying her to the next one.
She's very happy about it and, when I asked her if there was anything I needed to know she said that no, I'd be fine just being myself.
However, I'm far more disenchanted than her when it comes to people and I know that there is a significant amount of zealotry and intolerance in the LGBT community that I should consider before putting myself in a vulnerable position.
So, my question is this: what kind of etiquette should a heterosexual couple adopt when going to a pride parade in order to avoid setting anyone off?

Edit: to clarify, I'm not worried about the tolerant and open minded people that I will find there, those are the reason I'm going and I find them fantastic, I'm worried about the very vocal and militant minority that will be looking for an excuse to pick up a fight or push me away. So I don't want to give them any opening.

Well, as she said there is nothing special for you to know, just be yourself and have fun.

Zealotry and intolerance is not very common among the LGBT community, sure there some militants that are very engaged and that is true for every type group, but I think a pride parade is a moment where everyone wants to have fun not a place for discussing politics, no one goes there for that... I think (Even as a gay guy I have never being a big fan of crowds so I have never gone to a LGBT pride parade).

I guess you just need to use common sense, if someone asks you your opinion on a sensitive subject try not to say anything that would clearly piss someone off such as "being gay or trans is wrong and they should be put to death" anything other than that and I believe you'll be fine. Tell the truth, that you are learning and wants to be an ally but still don't know much about how LGBT things work. I don't think anyone would be angry or rude with someone who doesn't know things but is eager to learn more.

But such events are not for everyone even among the LGBT community so if you feel that is not a place you will be comfortable going... Just don't go. You don't have to be a part of every single aspect of your girlfriend’s life just as she doesn’t need to be of yours, don't go to a place just to make someone happy go because you want to go and you think it will add to your life or be a good experience.

Also, if you end up going don't forget to tell us how it went :D

[TheGrimPeddler]

I've only got 2 questions.

1) Where does Genderfluid sit on the spectrum? Can't seem to find too much about it via google but my gogglefu is not the best. Mostly because I'm apparently genderfluid, which is a good descriptor, but the terminology seems to change on me all the time and I wind up pissing people off :smallmad:

2, and this one's been bugging me for some years now (and why I no longer really socialize with any activist groups I used to know) ) Is there any particular rationality that causes the irrational thinking of "If you're not with us 100% in everything we say, you're against us, and we won't listen to any other viewpoints or thoughts AT ALL NO MATTER WHAT" I see going on in a lot of activist and support threads?... Come to think of it this question may be better suited for a psychology forum, but I'm curious what other (l, g, b, t, or +) folks think. Met a few who agree with me, one of my gay friends can't stand the old activist groups he used to hang with since they were starting to get extreme, so I know it's not all-encompassing, I kinda just wanna know if anyone else can figure out the "Why" of it.

[Professor Gnoll]

2, and this one's been bugging me for some years now (and why I no longer really socialize with any activist groups I used to know) ) Is there any particular rationality that causes the irrational thinking of "If you're not with us 100% in everything we say, you're against us, and we won't listen to any other viewpoints or thoughts AT ALL NO MATTER WHAT" I see going on in a lot of activist and support threads?... Come to think of it this question may be better suited for a psychology forum, but I'm curious what other (l, g, b, t, or +) folks think. Met a few who agree with me, one of my gay friends can't stand the old activist groups he used to hang with since they were starting to get extreme, so I know it's not all-encompassing, I kinda just wanna know if anyone else can figure out the "Why" of it.
Yes, there actually is. The few that come to my mind are:
1. Ingroup-outgroup thinking. This is the tendency to favour those in your 'ingroup' (i.e. people similar to you) over people in an 'outgroup' (i.e. people different to you). In some cases, the ingroup becomes 'people who agree with me 100%'- and you start to favour them massively, and start to view people who deviate from that opinion as an outgroup, and begin to demonise the outgroup. When someone disagrees with you in that scenario, you immediately assign all the negative traits you assume members of the outgroup to have, and proceed to hate them until they join your ingroup.
2. Backfire effect. When someone attacks your beliefs, you tend to hold onto them more strongly. People with marginal opinions have their opinions attacked often and angrily, which steadily causes them to disregard more and more evidence/alternate theories until they can't tolerate any kind of contradiction. This kind of thinking often masks hidden doubt, which is protected by completely disregarding contradictions that might create the unpleasant sensation of uncertainty in one's beliefs. It's easier to just ignore the alternative than change what you think.
3. The sensation of being morally right is intoxicating. Outrage is fun, affirming, makes you feel good, and gives you the perfect excuse for any bad behaviour- you were in the right, they were in the wrong, therefore anything you do is right and anything they do is wrong. It's a difficult sensation to let go of.
4. Information spiral. Because of the way news recommendations work on sites like Facebook, combined with the ability of the internet to bring together people who would never otherwise meet, online sites have a tendency to attract and encourage extreme viewpoints, which are then supported by the presence of other people that share those viewpoints. Ideas which otherwise might have quietly disappeared are supported and grow into large communities, and the desire to fit into those communities causes people to adopt ever more extreme viewpoints. This ties into the whole 'ingroup' thing from the first point.

There's other factors at play as well, but a combination of these effects can easily create the kind of experience you had. It turns extremist viewpoints into mainstream viewpoints and then prevents those viewpoints from being challenged.

[Cozzer]

Oh thank you for opening this, much appreciated.
So, I have a question: my girlfriend is very involved with the LGBT community and frequently goes to pride marches and stuff like that. I'm seeing this as a good occasion to support equality and get to know her from yet another point of view and I'm thinking of accompanying her to the next one.
She's very happy about it and, when I asked her if there was anything I needed to know she said that no, I'd be fine just being myself.
However, I'm far more disenchanted than her when it comes to people and I know that there is a significant amount of zealotry and intolerance in the LGBT community that I should consider before putting myself in a vulnerable position.
So, my question is this: what kind of etiquette should a heterosexual couple adopt when going to a pride parade in order to avoid setting anyone off?

I've been to a couple Gay Prides (in Bologna, if it's relevant) with my ex-girlfriend (who's bisexual). We never had any problem, and we were a couple that did a lot of "public displays of affection" or whatever they're called now.

There were a few groups of zealots in the parade, but they kept to themselves and were busy loudly protesting this or that thing against the rest of the parade which wasn't zealot enough for them.

I would suggest just going and doing whatever you want. I think the chance of being bothered is actually extremely low.

(I replied mostly because I saw you're Italian too, so my experience might be more relevant. I figure the atmosphere can change a lot depending on the place.)

[Shamash]

I've only got 2 questions.

1) Where does Genderfluid sit on the spectrum? Can't seem to find too much about it via google but my gogglefu is not the best. Mostly because I'm apparently genderfluid, which is a good descriptor, but the terminology seems to change on me all the time and I wind up pissing people off :smallmad:

2, and this one's been bugging me for some years now (and why I no longer really socialize with any activist groups I used to know) ) Is there any particular rationality that causes the irrational thinking of "If you're not with us 100% in everything we say, you're against us, and we won't listen to any other viewpoints or thoughts AT ALL NO MATTER WHAT" I see going on in a lot of activist and support threads?... Come to think of it this question may be better suited for a psychology forum, but I'm curious what other (l, g, b, t, or +) folks think. Met a few who agree with me, one of my gay friends can't stand the old activist groups he used to hang with since they were starting to get extreme, so I know it's not all-encompassing, I kinda just wanna know if anyone else can figure out the "Why" of it.

1) Well it is it's own thing, I don't really get your problem.

2) Well, you have to contextualize. These people normally suffered a lot of discrimination and hate that's why they just generalize everyone as an enemy until they prove themselves, it's a defense mechanism. They don't do it because they are jerks they do it because most of the people around them are jerks.

[Lycunadari]

I've only got 2 questions.

1) Where does Genderfluid sit on the spectrum? Can't seem to find too much about it via google but my gogglefu is not the best. Mostly because I'm apparently genderfluid, which is a good descriptor, but the terminology seems to change on me all the time and I wind up pissing people off :smallmad:
Hi, fellow genderfluid person here. :smallsmile: What terms exactly do you have questions about? Genderfluid is one of many identities under the nonbinary/genderqueer umbrella. As all nonbinary people, genderfluid people are also technically trans/transgender, though some chose not to identify as such for various reasons. One important thing to know is, that while all genderfluid experience some sort of gender change (thus the name), how exactly that happens can vary widely. Some people switch between all kinds of genders (I do), some only between a few, and none of these genders have to be the "opposite" gender. There's also the word genderflux which is a subset of genderfluidity where only the intensity of one's gender changes (like female-> demigirl-> agender). Also, how often someone's gender changes is also very different, it can happen several times a day, to only every few months or more, and everything in between.



2, and this one's been bugging me for some years now (and why I no longer really socialize with any activist groups I used to know) ) Is there any particular rationality that causes the irrational thinking of "If you're not with us 100% in everything we say, you're against us, and we won't listen to any other viewpoints or thoughts AT ALL NO MATTER WHAT" I see going on in a lot of activist and support threads?... Come to think of it this question may be better suited for a psychology forum, but I'm curious what other (l, g, b, t, or +) folks think. Met a few who agree with me, one of my gay friends can't stand the old activist groups he used to hang with since they were starting to get extreme, so I know it's not all-encompassing, I kinda just wanna know if anyone else can figure out the "Why" of it.
I think part of it is a defence mechanism, like Shamash said. If you're bombarded with discrimination all the time, ranging from micro-aggressions to flat out hate, sometimes it's easier to just cut off everyone who isn't perfect because you just can't deal with anything more, and even small disagreements are just too much.
The other part are different priorities - something that might seem not so important might be actually extremely important to someone else, and if you disagree with them on this issue, for them that might be fundamental enough that they don't want to engage with anyone who disagrees with them here. So it's less "you need to be 100% with us" and more you thinking you disagree on 5%, when for them the thing you are disagreeing on is important enough to be 80%. So for you it seems like they are writing you of because "you are only 95% with us" and for them it seems like they are writing you of because "you are 80% against us" (which isn't really irrational anymore). Does that make sense? It's kinda difficult to explain without examples, but I fear most examples would be too political for here.

[Iruka]

Since it came up recently:

What are the differences between "assigned female at birth", "coercively assigned female at birth" and "denied male at birth"?

Do they describe a different process, are they "updated" expressions, are they used to express how the speaker feels about it?

[Astrella]

Since it came up recently:

What are the differences between "assigned female at birth", "coercively assigned female at birth" and "denied male at birth"?

Do they describe a different process, are they "updated" expressions, are they used to express how the speaker feels about it?

Coercively is used when you want to put special emphasis to the fact that no-one chooses their birth assignment and in the case of intersex and trans people the assignment is often used coercively. (Conversion therapy, "corrective surgery", denying transition care, etc...)

[Chen]

Intersex sure, but how could the assignment, at birth, be coercive for a trans person? There's no way to determine whether or not a baby is trans. It could be used coercively later on in life, but the assignment itself can't have been coercive at the time it was done.

[Icewraith]

Since it came up recently:

What are the differences between "assigned female at birth", "coercively assigned female at birth" and "denied male at birth"?

Do they describe a different process, are they "updated" expressions, are they used to express how the speaker feels about it?

The first is technically correct when used to refer to cis women. The second indicates the assignment was not done correctly (and conveys negative feelings about the result) but doesn't indicate what the correct assignment should have been (the speaker could identify as non-binary, after all). The third conveys negative feelings about the result and indicates what the result should have been.

Lacking other context, I would read someone who uses the third phrase as angry. I would also take it as a strong cue that the speaker identifies as male. If that assumption holds, it has the benefit of telling you what the speaker is (male) instead of what the speaker is not (female).

@Chen
I agree "coercively" doesn't technically make sense when talking about a baby, but I think it does convey a "society tried to get me to be X but I'm not" feeling.

[Shamash]

Since it came up recently:

What are the differences between "assigned female at birth", "coercively assigned female at birth" and "denied male at birth"?

Do they describe a different process, are they "updated" expressions, are they used to express how the speaker feels about it?

I think "assigned gender at birth" is for CIs people, for example I was assigned male at birth, and I'm ok with it.

Coercively assigned female at birth is for trans people who are coercively assigned a gender that they don't identify with.

[noparlpf]

I've never heard "denied X at birth." Wasn't DXAB "designated X at birth?"

[Rain Dragon]

Idk, to me adding adjectives like 'coerced' or language like 'denied' seems stronger, but they otherwise mean the same I think. So, I agree that they sound a bit angrier and/or more passionate but without other tone or context it'd be hard to say. I've mostly seen the ones in the OP of this thread (AMAB/AFAB & FAAB/MAAB).


I've never heard "denied X at birth." Wasn't DXAB "designated X at birth?"

I thought so too, tbh.

[Coidzor]

I think "assigned gender at birth" is for CIs people, for example I was assigned male at birth, and I'm ok with it.

Coercively assigned female at birth is for trans people who are coercively assigned a gender that they don't identify with.

First off, it's just "cis people," not "CIs people" or "CIS people." It's a prefix or standalone word, not an acronym.

Trans people definitely make use of AFAB, AMAB, FAAB, MAAB, etc., so no, those terms are not "for cis people" or "not for trans people" or anything like that.

Generally speaking, a cis person calling themselves AMAB or FAAB would be redundant, especially if the fact that they're cisgender is known.

[Algeh]

What is the proper etiquette for when you need a, for want of a better term, "long-term name" for a person who is genderfluid and has asked that you refer to them by different names and pronouns based on a specific physical cue?

My specific situation is that I had a musician who signed up for the equivalent of an open mic spot at a convention a while back, and they did an awesome job and I'd like to add them to our list of performers to invite in the future. Our database is organized by name, and I'm not sure how to handle a situation where the name is fluid like this. Thoughts? (We don't track gender or pronouns in our database, so it's just the name issue I'm not sure how to handle gracefully.)

[Lycunadari]

Intersex sure, but how could the assignment, at birth, be coercive for a trans person? There's no way to determine whether or not a baby is trans. It could be used coercively later on in life, but the assignment itself can't have been coercive at the time it was done.
Well, you can't know a baby's gender at birth, so any assignment is technically coercive, but for cis people it's generally not a problem while for trans people it is.

(For intersex people, there's another term - "forcibly assigned X (usually female) at birth" - used by intersex people who've undergone genital mutilation.)


I've never heard "denied X at birth." Wasn't DXAB "designated X at birth?"
Yeah, I've never seen "denied X at birth" either, while "designated" is commonly used.



What is the proper etiquette for when you need a, for want of a better term, "long-term name" for a person who is genderfluid and has asked that you refer to them by different names and pronouns based on a specific physical cue?

My specific situation is that I had a musician who signed up for the equivalent of an open mic spot at a convention a while back, and they did an awesome job and I'd like to add them to our list of performers to invite in the future. Our database is organized by name, and I'm not sure how to handle a situation where the name is fluid like this. Thoughts? (We don't track gender or pronouns in our database, so it's just the name issue I'm not sure how to handle gracefully.)
I think this is something you need to ask the musician themselves. Maybe you can put both names in the database - like a compound name, or first name + middle name, or separated by a / ? But I'd definitely ask them what they prefer.

[Jormengand]

First off, it's just "cis people," not "CIs people" or "CIS people." It's a prefix or standalone word, not an acronym.

I'm eighty-seven percent sure that was just them holding down the shift key for longer than intended. THat happens sometimes. Okay fine that time it was deliberate. Don't judge me.

[Chen]

Well, you can't know a baby's gender at birth, so any assignment is technically coercive, but for cis people it's generally not a problem while for trans people it is.

Realistically its a designated sex at birth. The gender is generally assumed to be the same unless indicated otherwise. There's no way to know ANYONE's gender unless they tell you anyways. Assigning sex at birth I'd say is necessary, the assumption of gender that goes with it is not. Adding coercive to the description though seems needlessly confrontational and confusing.

[Iruka]

I've never heard "denied X at birth." Wasn't DXAB "designated X at birth?"

Saw it in an interview here (https://www.good.is/features/issue-35-as-we-are-zackary-drucker-hari-nef). The only occasion I saw it, but since I hadn't known CAFAB/CAMAB either I thought I'd ask.


Realistically its a designated sex at birth. The gender is generally assumed to be the same unless indicated otherwise. There's no way to know ANYONE's gender unless they tell you anyways. Assigning sex at birth I'd say is necessary, the assumption of gender that goes with it is not. Adding coercive to the description though seems needlessly confrontational and confusing.

I guess in theory you could just check yes/no boxes for vagina, penis, ovaries etc, maybe have a look at the chromosome setup, and leave it at that? Do you need information about a persons sex beyond medical issues?

[noparlpf]

Saw it in an interview here (https://www.good.is/features/issue-35-as-we-are-zackary-drucker-hari-nef). The only occasion I saw it, but since I hadn't known CAFAB/CAMAB either I thought I'd ask.

That seems like it would just cause unnecessary confusion because it seems to have the opposite meaning from the usual DXAB acronyms...

[Astrella]

Realistically its a designated sex at birth. The gender is generally assumed to be the same unless indicated otherwise. There's no way to know ANYONE's gender unless they tell you anyways. Assigning sex at birth I'd say is necessary, the assumption of gender that goes with it is not. Adding coercive to the description though seems needlessly confrontational and confusing.

*shrug* It is coercion though. Claiming it's just about sex (I personally don't agree with a straight separation between sex and gender anyway, they're both way too muddy for that) is a bit incorrect I feel because to society at large they are used interchangedly. And like, it is a box you're pushed in, just look at how many cis people even get harassed, discrimated against and hurt because they reject the exact box or deviate from expectations or whatever. Being assigned male comes with a whole load of baggage that gets heaped onto you. (Just look at how differently even babies get treated based on whether people are told they're a boy or a girl) Like the assignment has big life impacts that get pushed onto you. It's meant to draw attention to that; not to be all "doctors are all evil masterminds".

[Chen]

*shrug* It is coercion though. Claiming it's just about sex (I personally don't agree with a straight separation between sex and gender anyway, they're both way too muddy for that) is a bit incorrect I feel because to society at large they are used interchangedly. And like, it is a box you're pushed in, just look at how many cis people even get harassed, discrimated against and hurt because they reject the exact box or deviate from expectations or whatever. Being assigned male comes with a whole load of baggage that gets heaped onto you. (Just look at how differently even babies get treated based on whether people are told they're a boy or a girl) Like the assignment has big life impacts that get pushed onto you. It's meant to draw attention to that; not to be all "doctors are all evil masterminds".

I'll grant you it draws attention to those facts but as I said it does so in a somewhat confrontational way AND it's not even getting at the root cause. Sex is really a proxy for the various bits and pieces that are biologically different between people of opposite sex. This has medical validity and frankly is the only place it makes sense to distinguish. Sure you could instead list all those bits and pieces, but it is shorthand that works in the vast majority of cases. The problems you mention about society and their perception of gender roles is much more of a problem than the actual "assignment" at birth.

[Coidzor]

I'm eighty-seven percent sure that was just them holding down the shift key for longer than intended. THat happens sometimes. Okay fine that time it was deliberate. Don't judge me.

Indeed it does. I'm just also paranoid about that becoming an actual thing because it's just so ugly and bad typographical language convention thing.


Adding coercive to the description though seems needlessly confrontational and confusing.

It's definitely a loaded term and intended to express negative emotions and connotations, but I'm not following what's confusing about it.


I guess in theory you could just check yes/no boxes for vagina, penis, ovaries etc, maybe have a look at the chromosome setup, and leave it at that? Do you need information about a persons sex beyond medical issues?

Until we can actually glean any information from looking at a newborn's chromosomes to determine their gender, all that would yield would be additional cost added to the already way too costly act of giving birth and be an additional unnecessary test.

Yes, doctors would find this information to be useful to know instead of being forbidden by some kind of statute, because it's medically relevant at times other than when someone is actively having a health problem and also when there's a health problem irrelevant to their physical sex but the prescription options do affect men and women differently.

As I recall, there may even be some cases where what would be considered delayed development for one sex of infant or child isn't a cause of concern in the other.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It is coercion though.

No, it is not. No-one forced the baby to do something by using force or threats. Watering down the meaning of a word such as coercion - so central to other problems such as when a sexual act might be rape - does no-one any favours.

GW

[noparlpf]

No, it is not. No-one forced the baby to do something by using force or threats. Watering down the meaning of a word such as coercion - so central to other problems such as when a sexual act might be rape - does no-one any favours.

GW

Society in general does coerce children to act within their assigned gender roles, though. Which frequently involves threats, implicit or explicit.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Society in general does coerce children to act within their assigned gender roles, though. Which frequently involves threats, implicit or explicit.

Agreed, but the process of selecting a sex when filling out the birth certificate is not one such occasion.

GW

[Coidzor]

I must admit, this is one of the few places and times that I've seen anyone place the emphasis on coercion on the parents doing the raising of the child and the culture they're in, rather than the doctor or midwife who delivered the baby.

Granted, I haven't often been around a discussion that went in depth on it or that focused on any terms other than assigned or designated.

[Astrella]

No, it is not. No-one forced the baby to do something by using force or threats. Watering down the meaning of a word such as coercion - so central to other problems such as when a sexual act might be rape - does no-one any favours.

GW

You know what, sod off by implying stuff like that. And considering that like, intersex babies often still have unnecessary corrective surgery applied to them cause people can't cope with stuff not fitting their perfect binary means coercion definitely has a place in this dialogue. (it's even putting it mild.)

And please, if there was no coercion involved in being assigned a sex / gender than people would have no issue with people transitioning.

[Jormengand]

No, it is not. No-one forced the baby to do something by using force or threats. Watering down the meaning of a word such as coercion - so central to other problems such as when a sexual act might be rape - does no-one any favours.

GW

For a start, trigger warnings. Use them when talking about that. Second:

I've been raped. I've also been coercively assigned male at birth.

Which one do you think I resent more? I'll give you three guesses; the first two don't count.

[ThurlRavenscrof]

And please, if there was no coercion involved in being assigned a sex / gender than people would have no issue with people transitioning.

Yasss queen

[WarKitty]

So I have a question about referring to trans or non-binary people in non-open environments. I sometimes refer to my friends of varying gender identities in front of my parents. Now my parents are most definitely not on board with LGBTQ stuff. I already have to put up with stupid lectures every time there's reporting on pride or on transgender bathroom policies or something. So I'm not eager to use non-binary pronouns in front of them. I'm not going to win them over to anything, so I don't really want to start an argument that, let's face it, is just going to end in me being annoyed. Yet at the same time it feels a little disrespectful to not use people's pronouns.

What would y'all do here?

[noparlpf]

So I have a question about referring to trans or non-binary people in non-open environments. I sometimes refer to my friends of varying gender identities in front of my parents. Now my parents are most definitely not on board with LGBTQ stuff. I already have to put up with stupid lectures every time there's reporting on pride or on transgender bathroom policies or something. So I'm not eager to use non-binary pronouns in front of them. I'm not going to win them over to anything, so I don't really want to start an argument that, let's face it, is just going to end in me being annoyed. Yet at the same time it feels a little disrespectful to not use people's pronouns.

What would y'all do here?

Probably ask your friends how each of them feels about it and what pronouns they'd prefer you use around people they're not out to. Staying closeted around intolerant people is a perfectly acceptable survival mechanism.

[Chen]

So I have a question about referring to trans or non-binary people in non-open environments. I sometimes refer to my friends of varying gender identities in front of my parents. Now my parents are most definitely not on board with LGBTQ stuff. I already have to put up with stupid lectures every time there's reporting on pride or on transgender bathroom policies or something. So I'm not eager to use non-binary pronouns in front of them. I'm not going to win them over to anything, so I don't really want to start an argument that, let's face it, is just going to end in me being annoyed. Yet at the same time it feels a little disrespectful to not use people's pronouns.

What would y'all do here?

Assuming your friends are ok with it, they (as singular) is pretty commonly used even when people are talking about cisgender people who have no problems with binary pronouns. I mean it might come off a bit odd in some sentences, but it's not something people would pick up on I think.

[Delicious Taffy]

In regards to the "coercion" thing, the word itself is defined as "the practice of persuading someone to do something by using force or threats" (emphasis mine). Without making any assumptions about whether it properly applies to gender assignments, I'd like to ask how it would. All the doctor is doing is checking a box, based on the biological parts on the infant's body; any enforcement of that is entirely out of the doctor's hands, so I'm not clear on how the baby has been coerced at that particular stage. Wouldn't any coercion be up to literally everyone else but the doctor? That doctor and infant may never even meet again, so any enforcement of the assigned sex/gender is up to the parents and everyone else in the child's environment. I am absolutely not denying that it could be coercion to decide the gender of the child based on anatomy, for the record. I am only trying to understand how it is.

Regarding the matter of what pronouns to use in reference to a non-binary/trans friend or family member, when speaking to someone else: I, personally, refer to my brother by male pronouns in most cases, without mentioning his status as a non-cis person. The only time I won't is if the other speaker doesn't know either of us very well and it's more of a headache to explain the whole thing, and risk outing him, than to simply acknowledge that we're talking about the same person and move on.

[Jormengand]

The assignment is effectively itself coercive because of the legal and cultural mandate it places on people. The doctor may not themself be doing any coercion, but it's not unfair to say that the assignment is characteristically a coercive one, or the fact that such assignments exist at all is inherently linked to coercion.

[Chen]

The assignment is effectively itself coercive because of the legal and cultural mandate it places on people. The doctor may not themself be doing any coercion, but it's not unfair to say that the assignment is characteristically a coercive one, or the fact that such assignments exist at all is inherently linked to coercion.

How are you defining coercion? Maybe that's the problem I'm having here. It just doesn't seem to fit the normal usage of that word. In any other context, saying something was "coercively assigned" you'd gather the person doing the assignment was the one under coercion.

[Delicious Taffy]

The assignment is effectively itself coercive because of the legal and cultural mandate it places on people. The doctor may not themself be doing any coercion, but it's not unfair to say that the assignment is characteristically a coercive one, or the fact that such assignments exist at all is inherently linked to coercion.

This... doesn't clear it up at all, actually. All I got from this was "The doctor maybe isn't coercing anyone, but someone is still being coerced", with no indication of who is or is not performing the act of coercion. You mentioned a "legal and cultural mandate", but never elaborated on what that means. If the doctor checks "male" on a paper, there is absolutely no way to, by law, force the parents into treating the child as a boy, so I don't understand the "legal" part of that. The "cultural" half I can understand, since there are definitely systems in place which make it hazardous for the child to not present as male, to varying degrees based on environment. If you're referring to those systems, I believe we're on the same page, there, since there is certainly a level of threat to them. However, unless I'm mistaken, the doctor still has to check a box, through no fault of their own.

Unless your point is that the overall system of binary gender is coercive, thereby making assignment-at-birth an extension of that coercion? I could get on board with that, with no further confusion.

[Jormengand]

How are you defining coercion? Maybe that's the problem I'm having here. It just doesn't seem to fit the normal usage of that word. In any other context, saying something was "coercively assigned" you'd gather the person doing the assignment was the one under coercion.

Saying that an assignment is coercive in its nature doesn't mean that the person who is making the decision of which assignment to give is the one doing the coercion, but the coercion is still implicit in the assignment.

If someone's wielding a defective rifle it doesn't mean that the person using the rifle is themself defective in some weird kind of analogy-of-attribution kind of way: it's talking about the weapon itself irrespective of any of the people who may have made, used or owned it. Similarly if someone's making a coercive assignment then that doesn't mean that the person themself is responsible for the coercion taking place.


If the doctor checks "male" on a paper, there is absolutely no way to, by law, force the parents into treating the child as a boy, so I don't understand the "legal" part of that.

I'm going to go ahead and say that you probably live in either the USA, Canada, or Western Europe, right? Maybe Australia or New Zealand, possibly one of the Nordic countries? I know I'm missing a few to say the least, but suffice to say this isn't necessarily a true statement globally, de facto if not de jure.

Also, even in the USA or UK, having a legal gender has ramifications, such as segregated education, judicious use of Genuine Requirement clauses, and anti-trans bathroom bills in the USA.


However, unless I'm mistaken, the doctor still has to check a box, through no fault of their own.

To be clear, this is a point supporting your statement that gender assignment can in no way be described as coercive? :smallamused:


Unless your point is that the overall system of binary gender is coercive, thereby making assignment-at-birth an extension of that coercion? I could get on board with that, with no further confusion.

I mean, that too.

[Delicious Taffy]

Saying that an assignment is coercive in its nature doesn't mean that the person who is making the decision of which assignment to give is the one doing the coercion, but the coercion is still implicit in the assignment.

Well, there's that cleared up.


I'm going to go ahead and say that you probably live in either the USA, Canada, or Western Europe, right? Maybe Australia or New Zealand, possibly one of the Nordic countries? I know I'm missing a few to say the least, but suffice to say this isn't necessarily a true statement globally, de facto if not de jure.

USA, specifically, yes. Although, now, I'm interested to know which countries can legally force a person to present as their birth-assigned gender. Mostly so I can start making a list of places not to live in, should I ever have a non-cisgendered child.


Also, even in the USA or UK, having a legal gender has ramifications, such as segregated education, judicious use of Genuine Requirement clauses, and anti-trans bathroom bills in the USA.

I wasn't aware of any segregated education. It's not particularly a thing, in my region. What a strange concept. Is it anything like that episode of The Simpsons, where the school is segregated into the boys' and girls' sides, and the math "lessons" consist of the "teacher" saying meaningless nonsense instead of actually teaching anything?


To be clear, this is a point supporting your statement that gender assignment can in no way be described as coercive? :smallamused:

I never made any such statement, and it was never my point. I have only been trying to understand how and on what level the assignment is coercive. Please do not attribute nonexistent statements to me. I fully understand that, if the system itself is coercive, the doctor is also, to some extent, a victim of this coercion.

[Chen]

Saying that an assignment is coercive in its nature doesn't mean that the person who is making the decision of which assignment to give is the one doing the coercion, but the coercion is still implicit in the assignment.

I agree with that. And written in that manner I can see it. Written as "coercively assigned" has me link the act of coercion to the act of assigning since it's being used as an adverb there. Hence my statement that saying "coercively assigned" seems to imply that the person doing the assignment was coerced into doing so.

[Jormengand]

I wasn't aware of any segregated education. It's not particularly a thing, in my region. What a strange concept. Is it anything like that episode of The Simpsons, where the school is segregated into the boys' and girls' sides, and the math "lessons" consist of the "teacher" saying meaningless nonsense instead of actually teaching anything?

It usually comes in the flavour of boys' schools and girls' schools. There are no good schools (in terms of teaching quality) in my area which aren't gender segregated like that. Which sucks.

No comment on the maths teacher, though...

[TaiLiu]

I agree with my trans comrades, but I also feel compelled to point out that the coercion of gender assignment is intimately connected to colonial trauma. If colonization is coercive - it is - then gender assignment is coercive. Maria Lugones goes over some of that in her writings on coloniality of gender (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coloniality_of_gender).

[Vinyadan]

A question for transgender people: if there were a pill that makes your dysphoria disappear by making your mind identify with your biological sex (the one you were born with), would you take it? Why?

[AmberVael]

A question for transgender people: if there were a pill that makes your dysphoria disappear by making your mind identify with your biological sex (the one you were born with), would you take it? Why?

No way. That's basically putting my identity under the knife. It doesn't make things easier for me if I'm not me at the end of it.

[Delicious Taffy]

A question for transgender people: if there were a pill that makes your dysphoria disappear by making your mind identify with your biological sex (the one you were born with), would you take it? Why?

How about a pill that changes the body to match the mind, instead? Y'know, actually do something about the problem that doesn't erase the person's identity? If I woke up in a woman's body, knowing I'm a man, I don't expect I'd very much want a pill that forced me to think I'm a woman.

[Rain Dragon]

A question for transgender people: if there were a pill that makes your dysphoria disappear by making your mind identify with your biological sex (the one you were born with), would you take it? Why?

I'm not sure if I'm really answering your question, but I'd find it hard to take any pill that alters my mind like that. That's scary and I don't even know if it's ethical or what coincidences there'd be to those changes or even what it'd really change.

[Eldest]

A question for transgender people: if there were a pill that makes your dysphoria disappear by making your mind identify with your biological sex (the one you were born with), would you take it? Why?

Heck no. I'm a woman. I don't want to be a man. That's terrifying.

[Honest Tiefling]

So I have a question about referring to trans or non-binary people in non-open environments. I sometimes refer to my friends of varying gender identities in front of my parents. Now my parents are most definitely not on board with LGBTQ stuff. I already have to put up with stupid lectures every time there's reporting on pride or on transgender bathroom policies or something. So I'm not eager to use non-binary pronouns in front of them. I'm not going to win them over to anything, so I don't really want to start an argument that, let's face it, is just going to end in me being annoyed. Yet at the same time it feels a little disrespectful to not use people's pronouns.

Binary here, but a good rule of thumb for any situation regarding a decision that affects others to let them decide and not take that decision from them.

Some will probably want to argue with your parents to stand up for themselves and anyone else who doesn't want them to use the proper bathroom. Some will not want you to be have to lie and being 100% truthful to them. Others will worry about your safety and well-being, given that you seem to live with your parents. Others still will probably put on a sparkly cape, get onto a unicycle and start singing while wearing signs of protest in front of your house. If people get offended by you trying to respect their own freedom, they're probably too easily offended.

[Scorpion_Strike]

These may just come off as ignorant questions typical of someone for whom gender and sex have never been in conflict, but I'm honestly wondering: when decoupled from sex, what is gender and why is gender identity significant? Without a physical basis, it seems to me like gender's left as an entirely abstract concept, an archaic holdover from a bygone age and a way to put people in boxes that hold no practical significance or meaning anymore. So what makes gender identity so valuable to people that they feel compelled to fight for it? Why not dispose of gender and its arbitrary standards entirely?

[Jormengand]

A question for transgender people: if there were a pill that makes your dysphoria disappear by making your mind identify with your biological sex (the one you were born with), would you take it? Why?

Mind control weirds me out enough without the forced cis-ness that comes with this particular idea...


These may just come off as ignorant questions typical of someone for whom gender and sex have never been in conflict, but I'm honestly wondering: when decoupled from sex, what is gender and why is gender identity significant? Without a physical basis, it seems to me like gender's left as an entirely abstract concept, an archaic holdover from a bygone age and a way to put people in boxes that hold no practical significance or meaning anymore. So what makes gender identity so valuable to people that they feel compelled to fight for it? Why not dispose of gender and its arbitrary standards entirely?

I feel you may be confusing the social construct of gender stereotypes and the psychological phenomenon of gender itself. The former is a set of confusing unwritten social rules, the latter is an experience.

Which is incidentally why I die a little inside every time someone says that "Gender is a social construct".

[The_Snark]

I feel you may be confusing the social construct of gender stereotypes and the psychological phenomenon of gender itself. The former is a set of confusing unwritten social rules, the latter is an experience.

Yes. It's worth noting that there are people who don't have the latter, or who never experience it strongly enough to notice. Sometimes these people identify as agender; often, though, they think of themselves as cis people who don't particularly care about their gender, or cis-by-default. (Sometimes it's something they've never bothered to think about, but by no means always.)

This, I think, is a big part of that confusion: cis-by-default folks are pretty common, and if you've never seen or felt gender as an internal thing, it's easy to assume that that's how it works for everyone. (Especially when you have gender-as-social-construct around as a possible explanation for why some people seem to feel differently.)

So, the short answer to Scorpion's question is: because it's deeply important to some people on a fundamental level. You may not understand it - I don't either, really, it's not something I experience myself - but that's okay, provided we're aware of it. People vary in a lot of ways. This is another of 'em.

(I realize this is only answering half the question, but I don't feel well-equipped to try and explain what gender identity feels like from the inside, or why people value it - someone else can take a shot at that, maybe.)

[Chen]

So, the short answer to Scorpion's question is: because it's deeply important to some people on a fundamental level. You may not understand it - I don't either, really, it's not something I experience myself - but that's okay, provided we're aware of it. People vary in a lot of ways. This is another of 'em.

As a follow-up to this then, how does one who does experience their gender, determine if it is male or female? Due to the distinction made earlier between gender and societal gender norms, I imagine it doesn't have anything to do with that. So presumably someone who did experience their gender woke up with no memory of society or the like, they'd still have the feeling of being male or female. I'm interested in how that is determined.

[Lycunadari]

As a follow-up to this then, how does one who does experience their gender, determine if it is male or female? Due to the distinction made earlier between gender and societal gender norms, I imagine it doesn't have anything to do with that. So presumably someone who did experience their gender woke up with no memory of society or the like, they'd still have the feeling of being male or female. I'm interested in how that is determined.

It's really hard to explain, because I just know. Like, being male just feels different than being female, or some nonbinary genders. I guess it's somewhat similar to emotions - just like I know when I'm sad/happy/exited/etc I know when I'm male/female/other. It just feels very different. (And just like emotions can be fuzzy, my experience with gender often is as well, so sometimes it's less "I'm male" and more "I'm somewhat male but not completely, there's something else there as well, but I'm not sure what, definitely not female".) And yeah, I guess without society, I might not have words for my genders (for some I actually don't have words because they're completely independent from the gender binary), but the feeling would stay the same.

[Eldest]

As a follow-up to this then, how does one who does experience their gender, determine if it is male or female? Due to the distinction made earlier between gender and societal gender norms, I imagine it doesn't have anything to do with that. So presumably someone who did experience their gender woke up with no memory of society or the like, they'd still have the feeling of being male or female. I'm interested in how that is determined.

These are my definitions, are not universal, and should be taken as my answer alone and not as answering for the community, because everyone's different.

Gender: how you identify.

This is simplified, but hey. What gender you identify as, be it male, female, something else, both, or neither. This is entirely internal, and shapes the way you react to things. Discovering this is something of a self-discovery journey for people whose gender doesn't match what society expects of them.

Gender expression: how you express your gender.

Quite simply, this is what you see. If I wear nothing but tshirts and jeans, that is how I am expressing my gender. If another friend of mine refuses to wear anything but skirts, that is how she is expressing her gender. If a man decides to wear a dress, that is how he is expressing gender. None of these change who you are internally (your gender: notice how I had both a man and a woman in the examples wearing traditionally feminine clothes), but it is what other people see and will react to. I get more "sir"s than I would like, as a result.

Gender norms: how you are expected to express your gender.

This is the whole social expectations thing. It's not as simple as it first appears: for people whose gender differs from what they were assigned at birth, it's a catch-22 of damned if you do, damned if you don't. Even if the expectations went away, you would still have a gender (most of the time, agender people exist) and so you'd have gender expressions.

[WarKitty]

Yes. It's worth noting that there are people who don't have the latter, or who never experience it strongly enough to notice. Sometimes these people identify as agender; often, though, they think of themselves as cis people who don't particularly care about their gender, or cis-by-default. (Sometimes it's something they've never bothered to think about, but by no means always.)

This is kind of how I am. I don't particularly strongly identify as "female." I find gender experimentation curious and interesting. But by and large gender is just kind of...there. I don't mind being identified as female, but the whole topic is just kind of meh.

[Chen]

And yeah, I guess without society, I might not have words for my genders (for some I actually don't have words because they're completely independent from the gender binary), but the feeling would stay the same.

What is it though, that causes you to identify some of the feelings as male and female though, as opposed to others as feelings for which you don't have words? I mean is it purely due to the societal constructs for what a man and woman should be? I apologize if this is sounding obtuse or anything it's just not something I can grasp. My biology and genetics show that I am male. I've identified as such because I've neither felt nor seen any reason not to. I don't feel that maleness though in any non-physical way. I really can't fathom when (or where or how) I'd "feel" gender, which is why I'm asking the questions.

[Jormengand]

What is it though, that causes you to identify some of the feelings as male and female though, as opposed to others as feelings for which you don't have words? I mean is it purely due to the societal constructs for what a man and woman should be? I apologize if this is sounding obtuse or anything it's just not something I can grasp. My biology and genetics show that I am male. I've identified as such because I've neither felt nor seen any reason not to. I don't feel that maleness though in any non-physical way. I really can't fathom when (or where or how) I'd "feel" gender, which is why I'm asking the questions.

What is it though, that causes you to identify some of your emotions as happiness and sadness, as opposed to others as other feelings? It's very difficult to explain one's own experiences in such a way as an external viewer might understand, unless they share those experiences.

Or, how do you explain what sight is like to someone who was born without eyes?

[Chen]

What is it though, that causes you to identify some of your emotions as happiness and sadness, as opposed to others as other feelings? It's very difficult to explain one's own experiences in such a way as an external viewer might understand, unless they share those experiences.

Or, how do you explain what sight is like to someone who was born without eyes?

Fair point. In regards to happiness and sadness it is purely related to how those words have been defined by society. I agree without that common nomenclature there'd be no good way to describe the feeling. I can see in the dysphoric case where someone feels their body doesn't match their gender, it follows that the "feeling" that would be described would that of the opposite sex. In the case of someone who is more genderfluid, I guess the question is why label the feelings as maleness or femaleness? Is it based on current society gender perception in some way?

[Lycunadari]

What is it though, that causes you to identify some of the feelings as male and female though, as opposed to others as feelings for which you don't have words? I mean is it purely due to the societal constructs for what a man and woman should be? I apologize if this is sounding obtuse or anything it's just not something I can grasp. My biology and genetics show that I am male. I've identified as such because I've neither felt nor seen any reason not to. I don't feel that maleness though in any non-physical way. I really can't fathom when (or where or how) I'd "feel" gender, which is why I'm asking the questions.


Fair point. In regards to happiness and sadness it is purely related to how those words have been defined by society. I agree without that common nomenclature there'd be no good way to describe the feeling. I can see in the dysphoric case where someone feels their body doesn't match their gender, it follows that the "feeling" that would be described would that of the opposite sex. In the case of someone who is more genderfluid, I guess the question is why label the feelings as maleness or femaleness? Is it based on current society gender perception in some way?

Yeah, it is linked to how society perceives me, or rather how I wish society would perceive me. While I do get body dysphoria (the "my body is wrong" kind of of dysphoria), I have much more social dysphoria (the "I hate that people see me/treat me as [wrong gender]" kind of dysphoria). So when I feel male, I wish people would see me as a man, when I'm female I want to be seen as a woman and when I'm something else, I want to be seen as that something else (or at least neither male nor female). Though that's sort of a roundabout way of looking at my gender feelings - I don't think "Today I want to be seen as male, guess I'm a man today!". Usually it's more likely that I think "I'm a man today!" and then become profoundly uncomfortable when I'm around people who see me as a woman.

[Scorpion_Strike]

What is it though, that causes you to identify some of your emotions as happiness and sadness, as opposed to others as other feelings?

I think that ties into what we believe people fundamentally to be, which is probably going to vary a lot from one person to the next. Personally, I don't believe that there's anything to a person beyond the physical, no soul or spirit in substance. I believe that we are born with nothing except our bodies and the senses that come with it, the capability to process those senses, and a reward mechanism that provides a biological incentive for behavior that is conductive to the survival of the species. One thing essential to the survival of humans is to be part of a group as we're individually quite weak (physically speaking), and as such maintaining regular contact with other people is biologically incentivised. Remaining together as a group is easier if the members of the group respond to a situation collectively encountered in similar ways; if one member responds differently, this does not usually elicit a positive response from the rest of the group. Members that consistently respond differently eventually find themselves distant from the group and are left with three options: 1) to conform to the group personality, 2) to seek out a different group whose personality more closely aligns with their own, or 3) to remain alone in their difference. Option 3 doesn't usually work out well, as it eventually leads to what we call loneliness, which I believe is pretty universally recognized as a detrimental feeling.

The way to gauge others' responses to our actions is through our senses, and I believe that it is by learning from how our senses tell us others respond to our actions, the incentive system, that we become the people that we are, and that none of that is inherent. We only call our feelings happiness, sadness, or otherwise because that's what we're told they're called, while physically they're nothing but an alteration in the soup of chemicals that the brain floats around in, an alteration that comes about through this biological incentive system. We mimic the behavior of others to gain their approval (especially as children), which they are generally incentivised to respond positively to because similar behavior strengthens the bonds within the group and hence its chances of survival. Basically, I believe that we're programmed to pursue happiness, as happiness is the feeling that is tied to successfully taking part in whatever activities available that are conductive to the survival of the species. Happiness results when we receive positive feedback from our environment, which takes forms like being valued or loved; being part of a group that responds similarly to stimuli as we do promotes happiness in this feedback loop.

Finally getting around to the question, though: identifying feelings like happiness, sadness, and anger is part of a universal group dynamic: language. Whether we know what happiness is called or not, we're programmed to pursue it and calling it and many other feelings by their commonly understood names elicits positive feedback from others that promotes happiness. Part of what makes this so universal is that pretty much everyone is capable of experiencing these feelings, with some slight tendencies in different directions built in due to physical differences which promote a stronger response to particular kinds of positive feedback on a very base level. Physical differences that could affect the incentive system include a person's sex, as bodies of different sexes maintain different concentrations of certain hormones which, being chemicals, can also affect feelings and the experience of them. I believe that this is where the 'traditional' gender stereotypes and roles originated from; promoting nurturing of offspring and the feelings that come with it in females, defense of the females and offspring and the feelings that come with that in males, and the production of offspring and associated feelings in both is useful for the survival of the species. Of course rigidly sticking to those roles is unnecessary and repressive today. Other things that can affect the incentive system in more extreme, often destructive ways are mental disorders like bipolar disorder or depression. Regardless of physical differences, though, the feelings described above are universal to everyone in some way, shape or form. More importantly, because the incentive system works through our senses, we also come with basic facial expressions programmed in that reflect these feelings in a way that others can interpret through their senses. In particular, a smile means the same thing everywhere: positive feedback, a sign that a person is experiencing happiness and one that promotes it in others. Of course, accumulated experience due to exposure to culture means that everyone eventually ends up building a much more advanced library of body language to express a multitude of nuanced experiences, but the smile seems biologically universal.

I should point out that I don't mean to state any of the above as irrefutable fact, only as my personal interpretation of my experience as might be pertinent to the discussion at hand. Parts of it may or may not be backed up by scientific evidence, but I'm not sure and I would not present it as fact unless I could present evidence alongside it to back it up. Tying it into my original question and some of the responses, though: the answers I got for my question seem to mostly boil down to "my gender is something that I just know and/or feel." Now, I do not want to invalidate others' feelings or experiences, but it was also pointed out by one person above that the psychological experience of gender isn't universally experienced. This makes sense to me; none of the typical expressions of gender that I have ever encountered appeared to me as fundamental in the way that expressions of universal feelings are. They always seemed as merely conditioned responses, something that has also been expressed above. However, if the psychological experience of some kind of gender is neither universal nor supported by universal expressions... can it be anything except just an interaction of multiple universal expressions that people only adopt because it is a common response to stimuli of those in their group (or a group that they're seeking to join)? Basically, the only conclusion regarding gender that my interpretation of the nature of the human being has led me to so far is that gender can be nothing but an artificial construct, and that any psychological experience of it is merely a response to said construct.

The upshot of all of this unqualified psychological rambling is that the 'it's just something I feel' answer is rather difficult for me to square. To me it comes off as: "this is a societal interpretation of a collection of feelings that I happen to have internalized to a particularly strong degree," and if that sounds like a dismissive interpretation, that's because...well, it is. Again, I'm not looking to invalidate gender or people's experience of it entirely; even a complex, artificial experience shared by only part of the population is still meaningful exactly because it is shared by multiple people. I just feel like there's something I missed or misunderstood along the way, but can't seem to pinpoint what it is. Or maybe it is just that my particular interpretation of human nature only really allows for a dismissive definition of things like body dysphoria that, taken to its end, basically arrives at "get over it and work with what you have..." which isn't an empathetic message, nor one that I want to send to people legitimately struggling with the issue. So I mostly just end up being really conflicted about it instead, unable to rationalize being empathetic to people about an issue in which empathy's definitely needed if toes are not to be stepped on.

As a consequence, I mostly just try to ignore gender in daily life as much as possible, which to me seems the best way to treat people fairly (I similarly try to ignore the effect a host of other identities that I don't really understand, mostly by trying to judge people purely on their actions). At the same time, though, I worry that at some point I'm gonna end up saying something offensive or using a gendered pronoun incorrectly and end up running face-first into a "did you just assume my gender?" scenario, which would leave me feeling really stupid for not being able to tell and avoid an issue for which I have no solution. Yeah, maybe it's a rather irrational fear to have, but still, outside of message boards like these where people can just post "use {insert pronoun here}" in banners or whatnot, I don't really get how people expect someone else to just read their psychological gender to address and deal with them correctly if it isn't easy to read on the surface. In fact, I don't even know whether people in the LGBTAI+ community expect that or not, or whether that's just a warped view of the community that I have internalized because I really haven't had any meaningful contact with it before. For that manner, beyond pronoun usage I'm really not sure what constitutes inappropriate treatment either... can someone put forth some examples to clear that up? How do members of the LGBTAI+ community want to be treated, or at least what is specifically to be avoided?

Also, looking at how long and meandering this post became, I'm coming to appreciate more and more that I should practice making a point in a more concise manner.

[The_Snark]

Now, I do not want to invalidate others' feelings or experiences, but it was also pointed out by one person above that the psychological experience of gender isn't universally experienced. This makes sense to me; none of the typical expressions of gender that I have ever encountered appeared to me as fundamental in the way that expressions of universal feelings are. They always seemed as merely conditioned responses, something that has also been expressed above. However, if the psychological experience of some kind of gender is neither universal nor supported by universal expressions... can it be anything except just an interaction of multiple universal expressions that people only adopt because it is a common response to stimuli of those in their group (or a group that they're seeking to join)?

I think it can, yes. Fundamental doesn't have to mean universal. The obvious example in the context of this thread is sexuality/romantic preference, especially asexuality/aromanticism - there are people who just don't experience romantic love or sexual desire, which most people consider fairly basic - but it's not the only example. People who are strongly introverted get consistently different results out of social interaction than people who are strongly extroverted. People on the autism spectrum will have different reactions to certain kinds of stimuli. And so on. Brains (and endocrine systems and all the other biological bits that the mind runs on) vary a lot from person to person, and we're nowhere near a complete understanding how they work, so I don't think it's an extraordinary claim to suggest one more spectrum along which they can differ.

[Ifni]

Yeah, it is linked to how society perceives me, or rather how I wish society would perceive me. While I do get body dysphoria (the "my body is wrong" kind of of dysphoria), I have much more social dysphoria (the "I hate that people see me/treat me as [wrong gender]" kind of dysphoria). So when I feel male, I wish people would see me as a man, when I'm female I want to be seen as a woman and when I'm something else, I want to be seen as that something else (or at least neither male nor female). Though that's sort of a roundabout way of looking at my gender feelings - I don't think "Today I want to be seen as male, guess I'm a man today!". Usually it's more likely that I think "I'm a man today!" and then become profoundly uncomfortable when I'm around people who see me as a woman.

That seems like an answer to the question of "how do you tell that a particular sense of gender lines up with 'male'," though - if people treating you as a man makes you feel happy and validated while you're experiencing a certain gender-feeling, then it's natural to associate that particular gender-sense with "man". (I'm mostly just talking about labeling here - how you assign labels to your genders.) Does that sound right, or do I have things back-to-front?

Is it correct to say that the genders for which you don't have words correspond to gender-feelings that don't align with "woman" or "man" or any combination of the two? So being treated as either a woman or man would give you a sense of discomfort? If you experience multiple such non-binary genders, are they noticeably distinct from each other, and if so is there a way to describe how they're distinct? e.g. do certain behaviors, either from you or from others, feel more natural depending on which gender you're experiencing, in the same way that people calling you a man feels better when you're experiencing the male gender?

Sorry for the rapid-fire questions, but as another cis-by-default person, I'm really curious about this; I'd appreciate any answers you're willing to give.

I take the point that describing emotions is hard, but with happiness/sadness etc, I can talk about the kinds of events that usually cause them, and the desires associated with them (e.g. sadness is usually associated with a wish that things would be different, happiness with an outcome that is satisfactory in some way). Whereas for gender all I've really got for associations, once we set aside gender roles, stereotypes and physical dysphoria, is that it makes you want to be identified as a member of a particular social category, and I'm curious if there are other ways to describe it.

@Eldest: that definition of gender expression is a bit confusing to me. Why is wearing jeans an expression of my gender, and not just an expression of my liking for jeans? Where does gender end and just individual personality begin? I can see saying it's an expression of gender if you're using it to communicate with people about your gender, but that communication seems to require that people have a common dictionary for translating clothing into gender, and that seems to get us back to gender stereotypes. If we assume no such common dictionary, and a total decoupling of clothing from its historical associations, I don't see why wearing a particular kind of clothing would be expressive of gender at all (as opposed to being expressive of individual preferences).

[Shamash]

A question for transgender people: if there were a pill that makes your dysphoria disappear by making your mind identify with your biological sex (the one you were born with), would you take it? Why?

That's a silly question; it's like asking someone "Hey you know how you feel sad sometimes? Well I can solve that by turning you in a completely different person".

I'm sure some people would be ok with that but that just shows how unhappy and conflicted they are.

I can't say about gender since I'm CIS but if there was a pill that would cure me of my homosexuality(And my parents didn't force me) I wouldn't take it.

Sure only liking girls would be easier, but liking hunky and muscular guys is such a big and intrinsic part of my personality that if it got cured it would change my personality completely to the point of it not really being me anymore.

[Ifni]

That's a silly question

I don't think it's a silly question, and this is a thread for questions anyway. I think what the question is trying to get at is "would an instant, total, permanent end to dysphoria, without having to worry about transphobia or social issues associated with transitioning, be enough to make it worthwhile for you to change your gender?" If someone's primary reason for transitioning is horrible physical dysphoria and they don't actually have much sense of internal gender, which is true for at least some trans people, they might say yes to that. That all the trans folk here are saying HELL NO primarily just illustrates that their genders are important parts of their identity, I think - which may be super obvious but is probably worth reiterating, since we're simultaneously having a discussion about what gender is and what an internal sense of gender feels like.

(Also, on "gender is a social construct": part of the issue here is that "gender" is a word that's been adopted by multiple groups to mean multiple different things. "Gender" as a synonym for "gender identity" may be most common among the trans community, but it is really, really not universal. And if one person means "gender identity" and the other means "gender roles" when they say "gender", it's super easy for people to talk past each other.)

[Lissou]

I think I have a related experience I would like to share. I have had bad nightmares pretty much my entire life, and I remember one or two of them every day. This used to make it very difficult to function. I would wake up feeling pretty terrible, I would be scared to go to sleep, I would sometimes be scared of people who didn't actually hurt me but did so often in my dreams, etc.
Recently I started taking my anxiety meds (which I've had for some time) right before bed.

I still have my nightmares, but the negative feelings associated with them are gone, included within the dreams themselves. It is very, very odd to dream of horrible things happening to you while you absolutely don't care about them, and while this is helping me function normally, I am still eager to find a solution that doesn't make me feel... inhuman or something. I want the nightmare gone, rather than for them to stop bothering me as much.

Similarly, I think your average trans person would want the disphoria gone, rather than for it to stop bothering them. And while you may think of the two things as the same, I don't think they are. I think the pill you talk about wouldn't let people forget their gender, they would just be aware that now it doesn't bother them. But that feeling itself might be quite creepy, and in an age when we have other available solutions, I think very few people would be interested in this one on a long-term basis.

[Gildedragon]

I think I have a related experience I would like to share. I have had bad nightmares pretty much my entire life, and I remember one or two of them every day. This used to make it very difficult to function. I would wake up feeling pretty terrible, I would be scared to go to sleep, I would sometimes be scared of people who didn't actually hurt me but did so often in my dreams, etc.
Recently I started taking my anxiety meds (which I've had for some time) right before bed.

I still have my nightmares, but the negative feelings associated with them are gone, included within the dreams themselves. It is very, very odd to dream of horrible things happening to you while you absolutely don't care about them, and while this is helping me function normally, I am still eager to find a solution that doesn't make me feel... inhuman or something. I want the nightmare gone, rather than for them to stop bothering me as much.

Similarly, I think your average trans person would want the disphoria gone, rather than for it to stop bothering them. And while you may think of the two things as the same, I don't think they are. I think the pill you talk about wouldn't let people forget their gender, they would just be aware that now it doesn't bother them. But that feeling itself might be quite creepy, and in an age when we have other available solutions, I think very few people would be interested in this one on a long-term basis.

I think I get what you mean: not having a bad response is good; but not having the bad circumstance (which in this case also includes the existence of transphobia) is the ideal state.
And that makes sense for a lot of things really.

Also sorry that your meds make you feel inhuman. Wish you the best. And for what it is worth, as a stranger on the net, I hope that things get better for ya.

[Coidzor]

A question for transgender people: if there were a pill that makes your dysphoria disappear by making your mind identify with your biological sex (the one you were born with), would you take it? Why?

There was a short story shared in the LGBTA thread, before questions and support were split into separate threads. Well, possibly before it was the LGBTA thread, Might have just been the LGBT or LGBT+ thread.

Anyway, there was a short story posted which dealt with that question.

[Oneris]

Am I alone in feeling the Black and Brown stripes in the new Intersectionality LGBTAI+ Rainbow Flag should have been vertical, to, you know, intersect all the other colors?

[Jormengand]

Am I alone in feeling the Black and Brown stripes in the new Intersectionality LGBTAI+ Rainbow Flag should have been vertical, to, you know, intersect all the other colors?

I also think that if they were going to be in the flag they should be in the right place in the spectrum, and that the one with the brown fist/black circle looks way better, but... ehh. It's not my flag, it can look how the people it represents want it to.

[Luz]

Would you guys date someone in the closet if you are out?

And the person is not going to get out of it anytime soon.

[Comrade]

So... basically a secret relationship that's unlikely to stop being secret for a long while? I don't think so. I guess it's possible, theoretically, supposing I really loved the person in question, there was reason to believe it wouldn't have to be secret any longer at some point, and I could be sure they weren't just jerking me around or something. The former is key; barring that exceptional circumstance, no, I would not. I wouldn't be content with that.

[Lissou]

I probably wouldn't. Actually, I know I wouldn't as far as polyamory goes, and I can imagine it would be even moreso for a monogamous same-sex relationship. I don't want to be someone's secret and have to hide my relationship because they're in the closet, and it would be worse if it were my only relationship. Nothing against the person, they probably have great reasons to be in the closet, but dating someone in the closet basically means getting pushed into the closet with them, and people who have gone through going out aren't very likely to want to do that.

[Coidzor]

Logistically, based on everything I've seen and read, I'd say that the only way there'd be a real chance of a healthy relationship coming out of that would be if there was a concrete date for coming out of the closet and no longer keeping the relationship secret, like graduation and the final tuition bill being paid for college, and even then it wouldn't be a great chance.

[The Extinguisher]

Would you guys date someone in the closet if you are out?

And the person is not going to get out of it anytime soon.

I probably would. There are some circumstances that make it easier than others, but ultimately every relationship has its struggles and I don't being in the closet makes it impossible.

[WarKitty]

Would you guys date someone in the closet if you are out?

And the person is not going to get out of it anytime soon.

On practical concern I would have - if you're out, and you start spending a lot of time with this other person, is someone else going to figure it out? There's a not-insignificant possibility of accidental outing here.

[Luz]

Oh well, I guess there is no hope for me.

[Dire Moose]

I have dated someone in that position. She was transgender, pre-everything, and was still considered male by society overall. It wasn't a huge deal to be honest; she didn't seem to care what people thought of her as long as her conservative roommate didn't find out about our relationship and her employers didn't find out about her identity before she was ready.

The only frustrating aspects to that were having to put up with people calling us "gentlemen" etc. and being told not to call them on it, and of course the fact that she wasn't getting to live as herself and that I couldn't help her there.

[WarKitty]

Are we talking about orientation, or gender identity here? I feel that might make a difference on certain practical issues.

[Luz]

Are we talking about orientation, or gender identity here? I feel that might make a difference on certain practical issues.

Orientation, so basically I'm a person with very low self-esteem and a lot of self-hate.

I'm ugly, annoying and boring but for some reason this guy started dating me, the only reason this happened is because he approached me, I think would never be able to approach a guy.

Anyway, he is perfect, perfect face, perfect body, mind and soul. I don't know what he sees in me, I still think he lost a bet or something.

We have been going out for basically two months now and I made my situation very clear:

Because of my family, friends and co-workers I can’t be out. That means:
-No PDA(Public displays of affection).
-No hugging in public.
-No kissing in public.
-No talking about gays in public.
-If there is talking about gay in public I'm going to say some homophobic things.
-No visiting my parents.
-No visiting my apartment.
-No staying until late on his.
-I'm not willing to take from behind.
-I'm not willing to take him from behind.
-No calling.
-No SMS.

Apart from that we have been having a lot of fun, he is from Israel but decided to move with his mother here, so I showed him all my favorite spots in the city, we went to the opera, museums, roof restaurants, observatories, botanic garden and many other cool places.

We had dinner at the best restaurant in town and It was very fun, but now I'm wondering if I should not end the relationship because I realized I’m demanding too much of him and not giving anything back in return.

And I’m also not in the position to give anything back in return anytime soon.

Am I being abusive?

He got really angry of how I'm pushing him back to the closet, how he hate not being able to hug me or kiss me in the way to the university because I'm paranoiac someone may end up seeing it, he hates how we have to keep our "love in secret".

That makes me sad, I dunno why I imagined this would work, a guy like him with a guy like me would never work, I don't deserve to be happy like this.

[The Extinguisher]

That makes me sad, I dunno why I imagined this would work, a guy like him with a guy like me would never work, I don't deserve to be happy like this.

Well that's not true at all.

There will always be relationships where everyone wants different things out of it and that makes people incompatible, but that doesn't mean it's your fault for it, or theirs. Some relationships just don't work out. You've got legitimate reasons to want to stay in the closet and anyone that you date needs to respect that. And I'll admit its harder on a potential partner, but that certainly doesn't mean its hopeless.

And maybe it can work with the guy. Does he understand the situation of why you have to stay in the closet? If he didn't have a hard time coming out he might not realize why you can't.

The only thing I would say though is

-If there is talking about gay in public I'm going to say some homophobic things.
this is probably a little much. I get trying to distance yourself as much as you can, but I can see how this would hurt someone you might be dating. I think there are ways to distance yourself without being actively hurtful. (The half chuckle "yeah" is my particular go to if I need to avoid a fight)


But this is probably better served for the support thread then the question thread I think

[Orcus The Vile]

@Luz.

Hey if you were up front and they agreed before you started dating, don't feel guilty they were the one who is wrong here, you didn't ask for any of this.

[Recherché]

Also Luz, it may depend a great deal on where you are. In places where it's not safe to be out there may be a lot more tolerance for dating someone who's still in the closet. I'm willing to guess that most of the respondents to your question are from areas where being out and proud is generally not a problem.

[Lissou]

now I'm wondering if I should not end the relationship because I realized I’m demanding too much of him and not giving anything back in return.

And I’m also not in the position to give anything back in return anytime soon.

Am I being abusive?

Now, now, there is a difference between us saying we probably wouldn't date someone in the closet, and you having to break up with someone who is willing to. He knows the "rules" and it's his decision to make whether he wants to date you or not, I don't think breaking up with him because you think he can't take it is that respectful. I think it's just your low self-esteem talking, and maybe you're even trying to sabotage the relationship because it's easier to break it up than worry about him breaking up later? At any rate, if he's fine with it, he's fine with it. The fact that a lot of us wouldn't be doesn't change how this guy feels.

You can ask him if he's getting what he wants out of the relationship, and if not, what could be done for him to get enough out of it without sacrificing your requirements, but I don't think you should break up with him.

[Luz]

So we had a talk and it's now over.

He told me that he was hoping that as we spend time together I would get more open about my sexuality and in bed, since he saw I wouldn’t he said that hiding my secret was too much to ask.

I think he was just with me since he was new in the city and wanted someone to tour around, now I feel like a fool since I shared my secret with him and now nothing prevents him from just telling everyone or gossiping about.

I’m so stupid, I knew this was a bad idea; he was way out of my league.


Also Luz, it may depend a great deal on where you are. In places where it's not safe to be out there may be a lot more tolerance for dating someone who's still in the closet. I'm willing to guess that most of the respondents to your question are from areas where being out and proud is generally not a problem.

It’s a complicated situation, I live I a place where being gay is fine, most people are against it but they won’t outright say it in your face.

The problem is that the people I know (Co-workers, family and colleagues) are extremely religious and homophobic. To the point where I personally know many people who assaulted gays on the street for the sole reason they were gay or at least looked gay, so it’s not the dieal palce for someone to come out.

I guess I’m just doomed to unhappiness and living an unfurling life.

Question: Is the act of outing someone "for his own good" a thing? I'm really scared that he will do something like that.

[Recherché]

Question: Is the act of outing someone "for his own good" a thing? I'm really scared that he will do something like that.

At least where I live it's an incredibly rare thing that's considered the near the top of horrible things to do to someone. Does it happen? Yes but very very rarely and not by people who are at all considerate.

Also I'm guessing no chance that you could try to move away from the really dangerous people in your life so you could be a little more open? It sounds like where you are could get you badly hurt. You don't have to cut off contacts entirely with your family even, just a bit of space might be enough to keep you safer and still allow communication with your family.

[Luz]

At least where I live it's an incredibly rare thing that's considered the near the top of horrible things to do to someone. Does it happen? Yes but very very rarely and not by people who are at all considerate.

Also I'm guessing no chance that you could try to move away from the really dangerous people in your life so you could be a little more open? It sounds like where you are could get you badly hurt. You don't have to cut off contacts entirely with your family even, just a bit of space might be enough to keep you safer and still allow communication with your family.

I wish I could, but I can't for two reasons:

1-My family is a very "family family" like we do everything together, if I stop spending time with them they will go after me, even if it’s something gradual like I tried to do. They see me as this little innocent boy that needs to be protected, especially now that I’m living in “the big city” if I miss a Sunday family meeting I will be flooded with messages and unsolicited visits in my refuge sanctuary apartment.

2- I can’t leave my mom behind, she is married with a terrible, brutal despicable man that is my father and don’t plan to leave any time soon, she suffers from a severe case of depression, suicidal tendencies and may or may not have schizophrenia (The things she say she sees are all spiritual so no one can outright say that it’s a mental problem). This environment is just as toxic for someone delicate like her as it’s for me, maybe even worse, I at least can pretend I’m one of them, she is constantly mocked and mistreated both by her family and my father’s family.

She is probably the only reason I haven't killed myself yet.

[Lissou]

Question: Is the act of outing someone "for his own good" a thing? I'm really scared that he will do something like that.

I' ve never heard of it. Especially someone who is gay himself. Coming out should be your decision and having it taken away from you would be pretty bad. You're the one who knows if it would be safe, if you're ready and so on. I understand why you're scared, but I can't imagine he would do that.

[Delicious Taffy]

A couple of questions:

Is there somewhere I can go to find out some rough numbers on how common trans people are in the tabletop community? I'd use a search engine, but it seems like too vague a question to get any decent results, and this thread seems to have some decently-informed people in it.

I doubt it's okay on this site, but are there sites I could visit to ask more... explicit questions regarding physical intimacy involving trans people? I don't want to smut up the thread or anything, but I doubt porn is a good place to start looking.

And don't, like, jump me for my ignorance or something and give me some condescending reply like "They do it the same way you do" or whatever. I'm looking for either information or a person who can point me toward information, not "Why don't you already know everything about this"-type dismissal.

[Jormengand]

A couple of questions:

Is there somewhere I can go to find out some rough numbers on how common trans people are in the tabletop community? I'd use a search engine, but it seems like too vague a question to get any decent results, and this thread seems to have some decently-informed people in it.

Googling it does seem to suggest there's a correlation between being trans and playing TTRPGs, but I can't find any real numbers.


I doubt it's okay on this site, but are there sites I could visit to ask more... explicit questions regarding physical intimacy involving trans people? I don't want to smut up the thread or anything, but I doubt porn is a good place to start looking.

And don't, like, jump me for my ignorance or something and give me some condescending reply like "They do it the same way you do" or whatever. I'm looking for either information or a person who can point me toward information, not "Why don't you already know everything about this"-type dismissal.

If you want to ask me questions on Skype I can give you my username, or we can set up an IRC chat to talk about it.

[The Extinguisher]

A couple of questions:

Is there somewhere I can go to find out some rough numbers on how common trans people are in the tabletop community? I'd use a search engine, but it seems like too vague a question to get any decent results, and this thread seems to have some decently-informed people in it.

I doubt it's okay on this site, but are there sites I could visit to ask more... explicit questions regarding physical intimacy involving trans people? I don't want to smut up the thread or anything, but I doubt porn is a good place to start looking.

And don't, like, jump me for my ignorance or something and give me some condescending reply like "They do it the same way you do" or whatever. I'm looking for either information or a person who can point me toward information, not "Why don't you already know everything about this"-type dismissal.

Kay but i dont think theres any place where you can get a generalized answer on that. Trans people are a wide variety of people who all enjoy physical intimacy in different ways, same as cis people. We quite literally "do it the same way you do"
I dunno I guess if you had a specific question I could answer in a PM but I can really only speak for myself there.

Not trying to be dismissive or anything just saying that youre not going to get a universal answer

[Icewraith]

A couple of questions:

Is there somewhere I can go to find out some rough numbers on how common trans people are in the tabletop community? I'd use a search engine, but it seems like too vague a question to get any decent results, and this thread seems to have some decently-informed people in it.

I doubt it's okay on this site, but are there sites I could visit to ask more... explicit questions regarding physical intimacy involving trans people? I don't want to smut up the thread or anything, but I doubt porn is a good place to start looking.

And don't, like, jump me for my ignorance or something and give me some condescending reply like "They do it the same way you do" or whatever. I'm looking for either information or a person who can point me toward information, not "Why don't you already know everything about this"-type dismissal.

Google your question or what you think a blog post or webpage article that answers your question would be titled. If you get a bunch of porn use filters, but I'll be shocked if you don't find more or less what you're looking for within the first three pages. If you have a question, usually someone else on the internet has already asked it.

[AmberVael]

Is there somewhere I can go to find out some rough numbers on how common trans people are in the tabletop community? I'd use a search engine, but it seems like too vague a question to get any decent results, and this thread seems to have some decently-informed people in it.
Even numbers on general trans demographics are shaky. It's possible you could find some information out there, but I doubt anyone has done any kind of rigorous study, so I'd treat any statistics with skepticism. That said, I'd definitely place a bet on the tabletop community having a higher percentage of trans individuals than the general population; there's a lot of reasons for trans people to find it appealing.
Right now the generally used number puts us at about 0.6% of the general population. The estimate before that was 0.3% of the general population. So... yeah. Treat any number with skepticism. If you just want a ballpark figure, 1 in 100 probably won't steer you too far wrong, and it'll be easy to keep in the head.


I doubt it's okay on this site, but are there sites I could visit to ask more... explicit questions regarding physical intimacy involving trans people? I don't want to smut up the thread or anything, but I doubt porn is a good place to start looking.

And don't, like, jump me for my ignorance or something and give me some condescending reply like "They do it the same way you do" or whatever. I'm looking for either information or a person who can point me toward information, not "Why don't you already know everything about this"-type dismissal.

I can't help so much on sites, but the first thing I'd highlight with super shiny marker is that individuals pursue their sexuality in very, very different ways. Internet probably makes that clear enough. Different trans people are going to have different desires and ways of realizing those desires, and so you'll get far more useful information from asking individuals for their preferences given just how much variation there is out there. That said, I'd note that the relatively common occurrence of dysphoria can definitely make things weird. After all, discomfort with your own body can incur certain limits or taboos based on that discomfort. Simple analogy - if you're bruised, you may not want people poking your bruise. The severity or even existence of these limits can differ from person to person, but it is absolutely something to be conscious of.

[WarKitty]

I might take a look at some of the sex education forums for the latter question. Scarleteen tends to be a good place.

[Coidzor]

Is there somewhere I can go to find out some rough numbers on how common trans people are in the tabletop community? I'd use a search engine, but it seems like too vague a question to get any decent results, and this thread seems to have some decently-informed people in it.

No one has actually studied this AFAIK, so you'd have to be involved with setting up a methodology to try to get a representative sample of players in order to survey them if you really wanted to get any kind of idea beyond what we know of the proportion of the general population, which is kinda shaky as has been pointed out..


I doubt it's okay on this site, but are there sites I could visit to ask more... explicit questions regarding physical intimacy involving trans people? I don't want to smut up the thread or anything, but I doubt porn is a good place to start looking.

I'm sure that at least one of the transgender related subreddits over on reddit deal with NSFW subject matter. r/asktransgender, r/lgbt, r/transgender would be places to start looking for them in the FAQs/sidebars/sister subreddits lists.

I recall that it came up in the sister LGBTAI+ thread within the past 48 hours that there are different concerns when it comes to fitting a bra for a trans woman vs. a cis woman.

[Delicious Taffy]

That'll teach me to ask after information that doesn't exist.

[Sobol]

Would you guys date someone in the closet if you are out?

And the person is not going to get out of it anytime soon.
Yes. Wouldn't mind keeping secret my relationship with a girl, too, if she asked.

That

If there is talking about gay in public I'm going to say some homophobic things.
is too much, though.

[Luz]

Yes. Wouldn't mind keeping secret my relationship with a girl, too, if she asked.

That

is too much, though.

I guess it's too much to ask. Oh well back to loneliness I guess.

[Coidzor]

I guess it's too much to ask. Oh well back to loneliness I guess.

I mean, you could wean yourself off of this need to be actively and rabidly as homophobic and hurtful as humanly possible when there's not even anyone putting you on the spot to act in such a way.

It would be better for you in the long run, regardless of your relationship status.

[Recherché]

I guess it's too much to ask. Oh well back to loneliness I guess.

You could also take your mom and run to somewhere less toxic. Get out of the environment that's actively driving you towards suicide and is making long term relationships all but impossible.

[Luz]

I mean, you could wean yourself off of this need to be actively and rabidly as homophobic and hurtful as humanly possible when there's not even anyone putting you on the spot to act in such a way.

It would be better for you in the long run, regardless of your relationship status.

I guess that's true, it's just so hard, I can't help but think everyone suspects of me. And it's not as bad as I made it sound, I just say things like "Yeah it's a sin" or "I don't care about what they do I just don't want them near me" or "I don't think they should adopt children since, poor kid right?" Not "Gays should be put to death." "They are abominations" "Disgusting" or that sort of thing.

Most of time is not even me who says the stuff, I just nod and agree.


You could also take your mom and run to somewhere less toxic. Get out of the environment that's actively driving you towards suicide and is making long term relationships all but impossible.

She doesn't want to leave, she was the one who build the house they are living in, and it was mostly her money.

And about my "Ex" I don't think he will tell anyone anymore, turns out he is bi, and is already going out with another professor from another campus. :X

Guess I really was just a little distraction, it sucks that I let my guard down. I will try to not let that happen again.

But still he may do it just for the kicks. I hate my life.

[Merellis]

I actually don't blame the guy for getting tired of that and wanting to break up.

I could live with those rules if, AND ONLY IF, there was a deadline to when these rules would fall away.

Otherwise it's not healthy for either person within that relationship.

[golentan]

I actually don't blame the guy for getting tired of that and wanting to break up.

I could live with those rules if, AND ONLY IF, there was a deadline to when these rules would fall away.

Otherwise it's not healthy for either person within that relationship.

I'm a bisexual man, and the reason I mostly only refer to my first boyfriend is because of what happened to the second.

I invited him up to my room after a date which I thought had gone well hiking around the woods. He said that sounded great, but what about my roommates? I said they wouldn't mind, got my own bedroom, and they're cool people who I KNOW are LGBT friendly. He got alarmed, not only that my friends might know he was gay, but that they knew I was bi, and started talking about ways that we could backpedal that to keep our relationship an absolute secret. It got into some really insulting stuff that I can't repeat on this board even if I wanted to.

So I told him not to worry about it, there wasn't a relationship for him to have to hide anymore.

[Shamash]

Can anyone here recommend a good lgbt movie that has no drama? No suffering, just normal gay people being normal gay people in a normal gay life.

[Honest Tiefling]

I wish I could, but I can't for two reasons:

1-My family is a very "family family" like we do everything together, if I stop spending time with them they will go after me, even if it’s something gradual like I tried to do. They see me as this little innocent boy that needs to be protected, especially now that I’m living in “the big city” if I miss a Sunday family meeting I will be flooded with messages and unsolicited visits in my refuge sanctuary apartment.

Stand up to your family. Build HEALTHY boundaries to show that you care, but that they need to respect your wishes not attempt to destroy your phone's voicemail. Is this some sort of cultural thing, or is your family just weird?


2- I can’t leave my mom behind, she is married with a terrible, brutal despicable man that is my father and don’t plan to leave any time soon, she suffers from a severe case of depression, suicidal tendencies and may or may not have schizophrenia (The things she say she sees are all spiritual so no one can outright say that it’s a mental problem). This environment is just as toxic for someone delicate like her as it’s for me, maybe even worse, I at least can pretend I’m one of them, she is constantly mocked and mistreated both by her family and my father’s family.

She is probably the only reason I haven't killed myself yet.

I cannot give legal advice. But I would seriously consider looking into the laws of your region about what you can do. See if you cannot convince her to go to a therapist.

This is going to sound brutal, but these people cost you one relationship. Don't let them run your life into the ground. If you are international (to the US/UK at least) look into some living aboard programs.


Can anyone here recommend a good lgbt movie that has no drama? No suffering, just normal gay people being normal gay people in a normal gay life.

It's not quite what you wanted, but D.E.B.S is pretty light-hearted and silly.

[Sobol]

Can anyone here recommend a good lgbt movie that has no drama? No suffering, just normal gay people being normal gay people in a normal gay life.
Argentine "Plan B":
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1408972/
There's a love triangle, but not much "suffering." It's a romantic comedy.
I somehow found the characters much more relatable than in the USA LGBT movies I've seen.

[Serpentine]

Can anyone here recommend a good lgbt movie that has no drama? No suffering, just normal gay people being normal gay people in a normal gay life.
Priscilla, Queen of the Desert? It does have a few intense moments, but overall it's fun.
Or 3, a German movie (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1517177/?ref_=fn_tt_tt_4). It is a drama, but for the most part the drama isn't because of "gayness".
Or uh... a friend of mine was recently in a low-budget exploitation film that I gather was initiated and headed by LGBT people. It's called [Short for a bundle of sticks] in the Fast Lane, and it's meant to be incredibly ridiculous. Haven't seen it yet, myself, though.

[Shamash]

It's not quite what you wanted, but D.E.B.S is pretty light-hearted and silly.

Nope.


Argentine "Plan B":
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1408972/
There's a love triangle, but not much "suffering." It's a romantic comedy.
I somehow found the characters much more relatable than in the USA LGBT movies I've seen.

Watched "plan b" today, really liked it.


Priscilla, Queen of the Desert? It does have a few intense moments, but overall it's fun.
Or 3, a German movie (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1517177/?ref_=fn_tt_tt_4). It is a drama, but for the most part the drama isn't because of "gayness".
Or uh... a friend of mine was recently in a low-budget exploitation film that I gather was initiated and headed by LGBT people. It's called [Short for a bundle of sticks] in the Fast Lane, and it's meant to be incredibly ridiculous. Haven't seen it yet, myself, though.


I had already watched priscilla, The herman movies sounds too dramatic.

**** in fast lane? Nope! I did say normal didn't I? :smalltongue:

[thirsting]

Not a movie, but the series "Looking" looked pretty real lifey to me. As in, I could easily relate to pretty much every character, and imagine living their lives and making their choises. It's good.

[Shamash]

Not a movie, but the series "Looking" looked pretty real lifey to me. As in, I could easily relate to pretty much every character, and imagine living their lives and making their choises. It's good.

That's really Looking good, it's looking very promising ;)

No really now, seriously just watched the trailer and that's exactly what I was looking for. Thanks. :D

[Luz]

I actually don't blame the guy for getting tired of that and wanting to break up.

I could live with those rules if, AND ONLY IF, there was a deadline to when these rules would fall away.

Otherwise it's not healthy for either person within that relationship.

:(

I guess I can slow down of the blatant homophobia.


I'm a bisexual man, and the reason I mostly only refer to my first boyfriend is because of what happened to the second.

I invited him up to my room after a date which I thought had gone well hiking around the woods. He said that sounded great, but what about my roommates? I said they wouldn't mind, got my own bedroom, and they're cool people who I KNOW are LGBT friendly. He got alarmed, not only that my friends might know he was gay, but that they knew I was bi, and started talking about ways that we could backpedal that to keep our relationship an absolute secret. It got into some really insulting stuff that I can't repeat on this board even if I wanted to.

So I told him not to worry about it, there wasn't a relationship for him to have to hide anymore.

:<

But we had a lot of fun besides that, when we were alone, he said the experiences we had were unique and very deep.


Stand up to your family. Build HEALTHY boundaries to show that you care, but that they need to respect your wishes not attempt to destroy your phone's voicemail. Is this some sort of cultural thing, or is your family just weird?



I cannot give legal advice. But I would seriously consider looking into the laws of your region about what you can do. See if you cannot convince her to go to a therapist.

This is going to sound brutal, but these people cost you one relationship. Don't let them run your life into the ground. If you are international (to the US/UK at least) look into some living aboard programs.


Both, around here we are a lot more family centric than the USA but my family takes it up to eleven.

I tried she won't go; she had a bad experiences with a therapist and was even institutionalized in 1996.

Living aboard is not a possibility since I can't leave my mom, and she won't leave her house. Besides is not like the place we live is the problem, my family is the problem and I can't just fix that, running away won't solve the problem.

[Recherché]

@Luz

So you don't think running will help and don't want to try that, you don't think you believe that you can't come out without putting yourself into serious physical danger and you're unwilling to try and change opinions in your community in other ways. So what is your plan? Because the center cannot hold.

Your situation right now seems like it's surviving but not really living and it does not sound like it's sustainable in the long term. Not unless you want to arrange a marriage to a nice young women who you'll probably be betraying.

I'm not going to say that you should follow in the footsteps of a trans friend of mine who in one day, finished her name change that she'd been working on covertly for months, moved to a new apartment and changed her cell phone number as a way to escape the people in her past. But it is possible with enough planning.

[Luz]

@Luz

So you don't think running will help and don't want to try that, you don't think you believe that you can't come out without putting yourself into serious physical danger and you're unwilling to try and change opinions in your community in other ways. So what is your plan? Because the center cannot hold.

Your situation right now seems like it's surviving but not really living and it does not sound like it's sustainable in the long term. Not unless you want to arrange a marriage to a nice young women who you'll probably be betraying.

I'm not going to say that you should follow in the footsteps of a trans friend of mine who in one day, finished her name change that she'd been working on covertly for months, moved to a new apartment and changed her cell phone number as a way to escape the people in her past. But it is possible with enough planning.

Well, I would never have a beard if that's what you are asking. I wouldn't lie to a innocent girl who has nothing to do with my sh1tty family, I’m not that huge of a jerk.

My plan is go on pretending I'm not gay until either my mom dies and I can go on with my life far far FAR away, or I die and well that's the end of that.

Is it a good plan? No. Is it a fun plan? Nope. But it's what I can do.

But that's the plan B, the plan A was go on living my "gay life" in the shadows, but that's too much work and too much stress.

[WarKitty]

Luz, is there some equivalent of adult protective services where you are?

[Luz]

Luz, is there some equivalent of adult protective services where you are?

I'm usure, probably.

[ImperiousLeader]

Can anyone here recommend a good lgbt movie that has no drama? No suffering, just normal gay people being normal gay people in a normal gay life.

I just made the mistake of watching Closet Monster (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3638396/?ref_=nv_sr_1) and 1:54 (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt5834036/?ref_=nv_sr_1), two very good films that I heartily recommend (but they are intense and dark), and I also want some gay fluff to watch.

Pride (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3169706/?ref_=nv_sr_5) isn't quite what you want, but it's still very uplifting. It's about gay groups raising money to support the miners strike in Thatcher era England, so there's definitely suffering, but I found the movie very charming. And it's got that light touch that I always appreciate in British productions, it's why no American made coming out movie has quite topped Beautiful Thing (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0115640/?ref_=nv_sr_2) for me.

If you like Looking, may I suggest the series Eastsiders (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2558816/?ref_=nv_sr_1)? It's still a drama, about a couple dealing with infidelity, but it's less political and just more about relationships. Plus, some really cute guys.

[Serpentine]

Oh, you could maybe try the Australian TV series, Please Like Me? I haven't seen any of it, really - it's not my style of humour - but it's a comedy about (at the start, anyway) an awkward guy realising he might be a bit not straight.

[solidork]

The Gay and Wondrous Life of Caleb Gallow has been blowing up on Tumblr. I haven't watched all of it, but its pretty funny.

Its a free web series on You Tube.

[ImperiousLeader]

This little animated short (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2REkk9SCRn0&t=4s) has been making the social media rounds, and yes, it's totally adorable. 4 minutes, will melt your heart.

[Florian]

Getting a little sick of trying to be Christian and bisexual. Advice?

Get a firmer grip on what "Christian" exactly means for you. There´s a marked difference between "faith" and "church" across the divergent confessions that make up that religion.

Keep an open mind and take a broad look around. You´ll find hat even the strictest and most outspoken confessions manage to have queer parishes.

[Jormengand]

My advice would be not to get the thread locked for real-world religious discussion.

[ArlEammon]

My advice would be not to get the thread locked for real-world religious discussion.

It's been duly removed.

[WarKitty]

It's been duly removed.

Send me a PM? Can't promise a super-fast reply (I'm at work), but I may be able to make useful comments.

[ArlEammon]

Send me a PM? Can't promise a super-fast reply (I'm at work), but I may be able to make useful comments.

Hello. I sent you the PM.

[Luz]

@ArlEammon


Story of my life, you know you hit rock bottom when you life can be best summarized by a disney villain song.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3NoDEu7kpg

Just change the She, her, girl, witch and Esmeralda to He, his, him, guy, demon and my homosexuality, and you have and ideia how I felt for most of my life. :/