[Dreamscarred Press] Divergent Paths - Mystic playtest thread

[ErrantX]

EDIT: Playtest is officially closed, but I'm leaving the document available if people still liked it and want to use it or its materials for their games. I will not be working with DSP any further for this product.

-X

Greetings and salutations to everyone - I yet live and apparently have even been writing some things. Let's see how this all turns out, shall we? Without further ado...


Introduction
Welcome to Divergent Paths: Mystic! Within these pages we will discuss the Mystic base class and many new options that are available to it. You can find the playtest document right here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UT9E5bRAJkCSU2lznL0Wddy4nDV25sW4ilM8lr1NMb8/edit?usp=sharing).

Chapter 1 will detail several new archetypes for mystic base class:

The Force Mystic - a type of mystic who has embraced their animus and wields its elemental power more fluidly at the cost of some of their weapon training.
The Noetic - a mystic whose animus is derived from psionic potential, rather than arcane energies.
The Sage - a mystic who has learned how to tap into a primal, subconscious collective within his animus.
The Shade Tamer - a mystic whose animus is tainted with the essence of death and learns to use this animus to control the dead.
The Wandslinger - a mystic who specializes in using wands with his martial maneuvers.


Chapter 2 will detail new feats for use with your mystic (or other animus using characters!). Chapters 3 will delve into advanced tactics, which include a new prestige class and magical items for use with mystics and other animus-users.

----

Please post all feedback here - I'm looking for balance of mechanics, issues or things that should be removed/added/replaced, wording issues, rules loopholes I've missed, and basic grammar of course. I feel pretty solid about most of this work, but I have some specific questioning on the abilities of the Shade Tamer archetype and the Soul Caster PrC.

Changelog
6/8/17
-Made typo fixes throughout the document - thanks for the catches on those guys.
-Fixed wording on Force Mystic arcane missiles to be light weapons
-Fixed wording on Force Mystic paraelemental animus to be more clear for how long its useful for - until next turn.
-Fixed wording on Force Mystic forced attunement - clarified what earth and air type vulnerabilities include.
-Changed initiator attribute on Noetic to Charisma.
-No changes to Sage as of yet.
-Clarified that Ways of the Undying allows undead to receive morale bonuses.
-Attemped to clarify by way of examples for Unsettling aura.
-Specified how the damage is worked in sacrificing hit points for animus for fueling dark arts.
-Moved command undead ability to initial Dark Arts suite and specified how many undead they can command.
-Clarified in Dark Arts what happens if you raise too many undead and how they initially are under your control - reminder - Black Banner doubles this.
-clarified WHY you get Craft Wondrous Item and hopefully cleared up potential pitfalls for Necrotic Transcendance and the creation of the puzzle box phylactery.
-Reduced potency on Wandslinger's Edge to +1/6 caster levels of the wand.
-Feats - fixed Animus Surge's type in the chart.
-Elemental Soul increases arcane missile damage.
-Cleaned up wording for Psi-Animus assault.
-Increase to Soul Caster HD and BAB to d8 and 3/4 BAB respectively.
-Fixed typo in Glyph Casting
-Reduced cost of Claim Spell.
-Added Improved Claim Spell - check it out.
-Reduced cost of anima saber and it now comes as just a standard item that can be enchanted like a normal weapon. Defined its weapon group and weapon type, critical range, material and hardness/hit points. Changed the gem to deep crystal. Defined what happens with shade tamers using it with negative energy.
-fixed some wordings in Spell Bullets for targeting.
6/12/17
-Fixed wording in glyph casting for soul caster.
-Anima saber is a one handed martial melee weapon. If you aren't proficient with all martial, you're not proficient with it. You'd have to take Martial Weapon Proficiency (anima saber).
-bonus damage from maneuvers that does specifically list a type inflicts the same type of damage as the anima saber. Damage that specifies its type or changes the damage type of the attack supersedes the energy damage of the saber.
-anima saber enhancement bonus rules tweaked and removed craft wondrous item from needed feats to craft.
-changed elemental soul to add an additional 1d6 for that chosen element.
-fixed animus surge on the table
Changelog 6/17/17
-Fixed wording in force mystic proficiencies to make them able to use their own arcane missiles.
-Fixed the order of paragraphs in force mystic's missile augments.
-Fixed wording in forced attunement so it actually works as intended.
-Fixed wording (I hope) in Shade Tamer's unnatural aura.
-Changed up Deathly Garden to be more maneuver based.
-Fixed typo in Two Wand Mojo
-Reduced cost on Spellcannon to be more reasonable and changed it to require Scribe Scroll instead of Craft Wondrous Item.
-Updating wording in soul caster's maneuver sections to jive with recent errata.
-Soul Caster gets a modified claim spell at 2nd level, and gets Font of Animus at 3rd level.
-still haven't figured out how to fix Claim Spell. Working on it.
Changelog 7/1/17
-The nerfs made to Ancient Wisdom in the sage archetype make it largely a stat swap which is equivalent to half a feat, so... kind of a throw away. Lump into the price paid for animus infusion if you will. It's free at 1st level, to signify you actually getting something for your entry free to start with as well (yes I know it makes it more attractive to mystic dips but it's not THAT big of a bonus unless I'm way off base). You can now have your punchy wiseman mystic. You're welcome. :)
-Redid pretty much everything in Noetic, so you may want to give it a thorough re-read.
-Soul Caster - Claim Spell is gone, replaced with recast spell and spell analysis. Moved font of animus to 2nd level and shifted bonus feat at 7th level to 8th level.
Changelog 7/3/17
-Fixed mystic bangle to have full enhancement progression ability from +1 to +10
-Redid the Paraelemental Elemental Animus class feature in the Force Mystic because there are 4 elements, not 5, and I apparently can't count. Changed up the progression and clarified how they change active elements and reduced costs as they level as they are more specialized in elemental energies than other mystics.

--------------
As with all playtests, once the product releases I can't promise that the playtest documents will stick around. You've been warned! :smallcool:

-X

[Milo v3]

I definitely need to check this out once I get home.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Some feedback:

Noetic: if you are a psionic race, do you just not gain any benefit from the Wild Talent bonus feat at first level?

Sage: Reminds me of... Dragon Quest? :smalltongue:

[MilleniaAntares]

Hope you don't mind pointing out some typos.

"pattern of a psionic being who’s noetic essence did not express itself "

Should be "whose".

Force Mystic means we get a charisma mystic! Yay!

It also has a cool energy throwing stuff, huzzah. I was wondering when that was going to be implemented.

Sadly that's all I have time for today, perhaps I'll post more feedback, meager as it may be, later this week.

[Tuvarkz]

Fantastic. Although, on an immediate look, some issues:

Feats Table-Animus Surge
On the table Animus Surge is typed as Psionic when in text it says general. On the table it says it raises manifester level when in text it does caster level.

Soul Caster-Glyph Casting

(either from being mystics or being members of the soul caster prestige class, see Path of War: Expanded), may add their levels in soul caster to that class to determine their ability to cast glyphs (mystic or soul caster; if the character has the ability to cast both she must select one class or the other).
Do you mean Animus Adept instead of Soul Caster? Soul Caster has no inherent glyphs ability.
EDIT: Additionally, what's the reason behind having only 1/2 BAB progression and a d6 Hit die? Even considering Mystic's relatively easy access, it seems rather punishing for a likely melee class which has progressed only with 3/4 BAB insofar, and it's not that particularly great either, and Mage Hunter sets a precedent for having at least a d8 and 3/4 BAB.

Anima Saber
-Cool item, but is the overpricing really that worth it? There's a reason why the similarly expensive Amulet of Mighty Fists has been decried as such, and I'm not sure whether the damage potential is that massive, particularly with an assumed 20/x2 critical range, no 1.5x Ability score to damage baseline, and when the mystic can already turn all damage into elemental damage.
-Is it a light weapon or a one-handed weapon? Text implies it's a one handed weapon that doesn't get 1.5x Wis when two-handed, but it's never specified. Also, does it have a weapon group?

Mystic Bangle
Any chance this can be made to work with Enter the Vortex's blasts as well?

[Rosencrantz14]

RE: Noetic

Given that this archetype takes its cues from the Wilder class - even going as far as to relate the archetype to the class as an alternative path for same power with a more martial bent - should it not alter the initiation modifier of the Wilder to Charisma to better represent those intrinsic ties as well as the less than meditative nature of the Noetic's abilities? It feels like that if there is to be a mystic archetype that is based off of Charisma rather than Wisdom, this is the one that ought to be it, rather than the blaster archetype that shares few if any roots with a Charisma based class.

[Halae]

I very much like the Shade Tamer; I've always preferred passive abilities over the active sort you'd get with Glyphs. However, I have two particular gripes with it:

First, no material cost on animating undead. I'm not precisely worried about this; it's more... concerned, given how divergent it is from other classes that get similar abilities to raise the dead. Not complaining. Just wondering about the idea behind it.

Second, Craft Wondrous Item at level 7, apropos of nothing. Why is it there? A mystic that actually wants to do crafting will take that at level 5 by themselves.

[khadgar567]

some one ping xefas we have sidereal exalted created by dreamscared press
other then no particular comment

[TiaC]

This looks amazing!

A few comments and questions:

Force Mystic:

Does Augmented Missiles have to be a swift action? PoW classes always have too many things to do with their swifts.

In the description of Paraelemental Animus you have a typo at the beginning "At 6h level".

I'm not quite sure that Forced Attunement does what you want it to with the [air] and [earth] subtypes. Neither of them have any solid rules for what traits they provide.

Noetic:

Animus Surge could use text saying that Prestige Classes that advance glyphs also advance Animus Surge.

Shade Tamer:

Is Ways of the Undying meant to allow undead to receive morale bonuses?

Wandslinger:

I worry that Wandslinger’s Edge scales too easily. A 0th level wand can effectively be a +5 weapon for only 7.5k.

Feats:

Elemental Soul doesn't seem to do anything, as missiles already add Cha to damage and both are untyped, so they would not stack.

Psi-Animus Assault seems to require that you expend your focus twice, as each of the prerequisites also requires that you expend focus.

Soul Caster:

I quite like this class, it looks like a cool Prestige Class.

I'm not sure I like the chassis. 1/2 BaB on an initiator is quite low.

I also feel that it has a lot of dead levels.

Items:

Can the Anima Saber have a weapon group?

The Spell Bullet could use text saying that the spell takes effect on the shot's target or centered on them. It should also require that the target be legal.

[Swaoeaeieu]

if a shade tamer uses the black art Dark Connection to let an undead minion use a Unquiet Grave maneuver, does that minion get the grave call benefit of said maneuver?

[Fenryr]

Ooooh, you live!

I really liked the "So… What exactly is animus then?" section. While it was implied in the original class, a more developed text is welcome.

Beyond that, I was expecting more Animus feats that could work with Tap Animus feat. Any chance we see something like that?

Edit: is the Anima Saber light? One handed? Weapon Finesse?

[digiman619]

So you created both a lightaber and caster shells. Do't think we didn't notice! Also, minor quibble, but you might want to change the name to Divergent Paths: Mystic Expanded or something, because the other Divergant Paths brought a new class/discipline, and this just expands an existing class.

[ATalsen]

Anima Saber

Needs more weapon stats (some already noted by Fenryr):

Crit range specified
Handedness
Weapon group(s)
Material harness and HP value for being sundered (and potentially whether the + bonus increases its hardness like it does for other weapons).


Can it be sized up or down for small/large beings? Or does it not size, but they can use it normally?

I think it would benefit from being Finessable, both mechanically and thematically.

EDIT: Anima saber never actually says it is used as a melee weapon; its implied but it should really say it specifically.

ie: "...forth a crackling blade of pure elemental energies based on his active elemental attunement that is wielded as a (one handed) melee weapon, which inflicts ..."

---

I think the Anima saber is front loaded, and thus too cheap to start, and too expensive later on.

What you get for 4K gp:

1d8 weapon that deals variable energy type damage (good at low levels, kind of meh when opponents start getting energy resist regularly)
It’s a weapon, so Strength bonus to damage like normal, PLUS Initiator Mod in damage (and another +1 or special weapon property), so 2 stats to damage (this appears to be its real selling point)
Ignore 10 Hardness (which I translate into effectively reducing the hardness of the target, so hardness 15 becomes hardness 5 effectively). This is fine, but not as great as it may appear, since in pathfinder energy damage is halved against objects (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/damaging-objects/#TOC-Energy-Attacks).



At low levels, that’s quite a bit to get for 4K, and there’s not a whole lot of impetus to improve the weapon much later, as none of its basic properties are “plus” dependent.


How I’d fix:
I’d recommend just setting a base price for the item at masterwork level, and allowing the addition of melee weapon pluses and properties just like a normal weapon.

For example, I’d tend to value the base at 6K gp – a bit more than an adamantine weapon. Then to add a +1 to it would be the normal 2000 gp more, etc.

That would make the weapon scale just like all other weapons, but has a base entry fee, just like special materials do, to balance its given utility.

It would therefor be not too cheap for what it does at low levels, and not too expensive to improve at higher levels. And thus be a weapon you can use your whole career.

---

Fluff:
“At one end of this, is a glyph-carved diamond with numerous facets. “
Oh, can this be deep crystal instead of a diamond? I think that would be cool, and harken back to other DSP products.

[TiaC]

I came back to this for a second look and I have some more concerns about the Soul Caster.

The main problem is just that this class is very animus hungry and has no method of gaining more animus. There's nothing about the class that allows them to gain more animus than a normal mystic or use any animus out of combat. With every spell costing animus, the soul caster will quickly run out of animus.

Claim Spell is probably the biggest problem here. It costs a lot of animus and only increases with level. It is very expensive in the combat you use it and doesn't give any immediate benefit. Given that it only lasts for the day, I can't really see it being used.

Animus Metacasting is powerful, but it should be fine given the constraints it places on the spell being cast in combat.

[Adam1949]

A couple of things I've found that need specifying.

<The Shade Tamer> suffers a -2 penalty to Diplomacy and Handle Animal checks when dealing with those unaccustomed to death. What exactly is the definition of "unaccustomed to death"? Does that simply apply to everyone living? Anyone who does not have the ability to cast a Necromancy spell or a spell that can create undead? Do morticians or grave-robbers count as being accustomed? What about adventurers, for whom most will be very used to things being dead around them?

He does not need material components for arts that replicate spells with material components - he instead pays with animus or hit points (one point of animus or 5 hit points per 50gp value of the material components). What constitutes as "paying hit points"? Do they simply take damage, and if so can this damage be prevented or redirected in any way? Do they suffer something similar to Burn like a kineticist, so there's no way to regain 'paid' hit points until the next day?

The shade tamer may animate a corpse as if he had cast lesser animate dead upon it... Are these undead automatically under the Shade Tamer's control? For that matter, how does a shade tamer determine how many undead they can have at their command?

The shade tamer gains the Craft Wondrous Item feat as a bonus feat at 7th level. I get the distinct feeling from this and the class feature directly above it that the Shade Tamer is meant to be "the initiating Dread Necromancer". This might bear explaining in its introductory statement, because otherwise this feels really random to have as a class feature.

To learn or cast a spell, a soul caster must have a primary initiator score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. Not actually a problem whatsoever here, but there's a funny interaction with regards to the Roil Dancer kineticist archetype; once more, CON-based spellcasting exists! Hooray for that! Keep it in, I love it!

[ATalsen]

Force Mystic (Archetype)

"The force mystic attacks with arcane missiles as though they were light one-handed weapons,"

Light weapons are one category; One-Handed weapons are a separate category.
Did you mean light OR one handed, giving a choice?

Given the rest of the info, it seems like the intent is just that they are light weapons.

Paraelemental Animus (Su)
"When blending elements, the force mystic must spend a point of animus to fuel ability."

It is unclear how often you need to spend the animus so that it modifies your maneuvers - once a round? once per maneuver?

Possible typo missing 'the' between 'fuel' and 'ability'.


Forced Attunement (Su)
This appears to give a subtype based on your selected energy to the target(s).

I'm not sure all the possible subtypes make sense - water subtype for example(http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types/#TOC-Water-Subtype) has nothing to do with cold resistance and instead grants water breathing and swim speed.

(possible active elements: air (electricity), earth (acid), fire (fire), and water (cold).)

[ErrantX]

Thank you so much for the responses thus far - I'm trying to juggle a change log and updating my master document with work and other things so I'll have an updated document hopefully either tonight or tomorrow morning.

Please keep the feedback coming!

-X

[Tuvarkz]

Hm, just realized ATalsen and I seem to have gotten entirely different readings of the Anima Saber's damage.
Is the +Initiation modifier to the anima saber's damage is on top of the usual strength or dexterity; or in replacement of it? Completely changes the power of the item, and should be clearly specificed as to which of the two applies.

[ErrantX]

Document updated with new info, changelog in OP.

Thank you all - give it another looksee and see what else I wrote that's possible malfunctioning or has grammar issues, etc :D

EDIT: If someone wants to pull in input from 4chan and/or reddit and add it here, that would be cool. I'd like to get that info here.

-X

[Ninjaxenomorph]

While having the Noetic be charisma-based makes sense, it kind of ruined the hope I had for a Wisdom-based full initiator that got Sleeping Goddess without jumping through hoops. Is the Force Mystic going to remain Charisma-based?

[ErrantX]

While having the Noetic be charisma-based makes sense, it kind of ruined the hope I had for a Wisdom-based full initiator that got Sleeping Goddess without jumping through hoops. Is the Force Mystic going to remain Charisma-based?

Can't win 'em all, all I saw on the chan about this was "why noetic not Cha-based! DSP is so allergic to Cha!". Plus during the original test of Expanded there was a lot of discontent about not having a Cha!Mystic so here ya go - have two. I see the Force Mystic as having more sorcerer influence and the Noetic having more Wilder influence (obv). So there ya go. Have two stat change archetypes for Cha!Mystics.

I have come into a situation where I have more time to write during my day sometimes so honestly, your wish might come true with another supplement (I promised a psionic stalker ages ago and I aim to deliver it if possible). At least as long as DSP has customers that want it and they want to hire me to write it at any rate. I started the mystic book before my departure from the company and only now am getting around to seeing if they wanted it. They did, so here we are.

-X

[Tuvarkz]

Animus Surge's Benefit text in the table remains uncorrected. Should be caster and not manifester level.

Soul Caster-Glyph Casting
It still references itself in the second parenthesis's text.


may add their levels in soul caster to that class to determine their ability to cast glyphs (mystic or soul caster; if the character has the ability to cast both she must select one class or the other).


Anima Saber
Long Blades is not a weapon group, or at least not a pre-existing one. It's either Light Blades or Heavy Blades.

Again, the 6k gp base price is like a considerable hurdle (Particularly because it means it won't see play until at least levels 8-9), even if enchanting it as a magic weapon is now cheaper. Similarly, the cap on +5 total makes it a rather weak option in comparison to more commonly used weapons, even if it's just endgame-wise. As is, the only situation where I see it as a viable weapon is a levels 9-14 build that completely ignored str or agi in favor of the initiation modifier and has taken Intuitive Fighting.
Also, forcing both Craft Magic Arms and Armor as well as Craft Wondrous Item feels like a hurdle in making it.

[ATalsen]

Can't win 'em all, all I saw on the chan about this was "why noetic not Cha-based! DSP is so allergic to Cha!". Plus during the original test of Expanded there was a lot of discontent about not having a Cha!Mystic so here ya go - have two.

While I loved the Wisdom-based noetic, it really did scream to be Cha-base from its Wilder influence.

My own wish list is ONE more full BAB Int-mod initiator. Warder is great but its main class feature set (Defensive focus, aegis, Armiger's mark) just never seems to compliment my planned builds. :)

---

Quick couple of items:

Soul Caster (Prestige Class)

"Maneuvers: Ability to initiate 3rd level maneuvers and stances of the Elemental Flux discipline, and possess at least one strike and one stance of 3rd level or higher"

This seems a little convoluted to me, and I'm trying to understand what might qualify.

seems like the lowest qualifying set of items is:
a 3rd level Elemental Flux STRIKE
a 3rd level elemental Flux Stance

Could also qualify as:
a 3rd level Elemental Flux BOOST
a 4th level Elemental Flux STRIKE
a 3rd level elemental Flux Stance

Seems like it would just be clearer to say:
"Maneuvers: Ability to initiate at least one 3rd level or higher strike of the Elemental Flux discipline, and possess at least one Elemental Flux stance of 3rd level or higher"

Which would let someone enter with a 4th level Elemental Flux strike and 3rd level Elemental Flux stance.

Maybe I'm missing it though and its supposed to be any discipline stance of 3rd level or higher?



Anima Saber

I forgot to mention needing weapon proficiency; otherwise people might think the wielder is non-proficient!

May I suggest something like:
"Anyone with the animus capable of activating the saber is considered proficient with its use (as a weapon)"


Odd bit of cut and paste, which may not be on your internal doc:
"the anima saber becomes a blade of darkness that inflicts slashing and negative ???

Anima sabers can possess an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on attack and damage rolls. energy damage. "

"energy damage." should be moved to the end of the 1st line (the ??? I put in above).


Without the 2 stats to damage, I'm not sure the price is low enough, but still, better a tiny bit overpriced then under-priced. Maybe drop it to 4,000 or 5,000 gp?

Though I think I'd make it an option to substitute IM for Str Mod to damage instead of mandatory. Making it mandatory means not playing well with Deadly Agility (Dex to Damage feat). As an option you could take whatever your best stat is, but only one stat, which plays into more builds.

[TiaC]

Thanks for the quick turnaround on this! I have a few comments.


-Reduced potency on Wandslinger's Edge to +1/6 caster levels of the wand.
Can I suggest that this be 1/4 levels to a max of 1 higher than the level of the wand's spell? I think that would balance it well for both low and high level play. For reference, that would put the minimum cost to achieve each level of bonus at 1,500; 6,000; 18,000; 36,000; 60,000. This maps relatively closely to weapon costs.


-Feats - fixed Animus Surge's type in the chart.
This still says "Spend animus to increase manifester level temporarily" in the table.


-Elemental Soul increases arcane missile damage.
I would say this is a bit too weak now. Even at higher levels, it's questionable if this is as good as weapon specialization.


-Increase to Soul Caster HD and BAB to d8 and 3/4 BAB respectively.
Great, but I noticed one more thing. Why does a PrC that adds casting to a class with good Will and bad Fort have good Fort and bad Will?


-Reduced cost of Claim Spell.
-Added Improved Claim Spell - check it out.
Better, but I still am not too fond of it. The non-improved version is still pretty much a ribbon. It offers a pretty small benefit that is inconsistent, impractical to improve, and still not too cheap.

I think one of my problems is that it uses an in-combat resource for out-of-combat benefits, which leads to silly situations. As written, you might delay killing the last enemy in order to use a scroll on yourself and intentionally fail the save, which makes no sense in character. I'm not sure what to do about that. Perhaps allowing them to create an animus debt that reduces the amount of animus they start the next combat with?

I would like to suggest this as an alternative for the ability: "At 3rd level, the soul caster has learned a way to use the magic of her enemies against them once she’s felt the bite of their magic. If a spell or spell-like ability is used on the soul caster and she suffers its effect (if the effect allows for a saving throw, she must fail the saving throw to use this ability), as an immediate action she may try to claim and incorporate the spell and use it herself. When claiming a spell, she must first identify the spell with a Spellcraft check, and if successful, she spends one point of animus per level of the spell and may immediately cast that spell herself." (perhaps stagger or nauseate the soul caster for a round to offset the action economy)


-Reduced cost of anima saber and it now comes as just a standard item that can be enchanted like a normal weapon. Defined its weapon group and weapon type, critical range, material and hardness/hit points. Changed the gem to deep crystal. Defined what happens with shade tamers using it with negative energy.
I think this doesn't need the limit to +5 anymore. At higher levels, energy resistance is more common anyway.

Edit: Can I ask for the Wandslinger to get Wand Mastery at some point?

[ATalsen]

Archetype comparison chart




Archetype / Alternate Class Feature
Class Skills
Weapon & Armor
Maneuvers
Animus
Elemental Attunement
Blade Meditation
Bonus Feats: 2
7
12
17
Arcane Defense
Elemental Glyph
Mystic Artifice
Withstand Spell
Instant Enlightenment
Quell Magic
Font of Animus
Glyph Mastery


Aurora Soul (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/mystic/aurora-soul)

X
C



X
X
X
X


X







Gunsmoke Mystic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/mystic/gunsmoke-mystic)

X
C



X
X
X
X



X

X




Knight-Chandler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/mystic/knight-chandler)



X







X



X

X























Force Mystic (Cha)

X
C
C

X
X



X



X
X




Noetic (Cha)


C







X
X
X







Sage






X



X


X


X
X


Shade Tamer

X
C
C

C

X


X
X

X
X
X

X


Wandslinger






X
C
C
C
X

X

X
X








Looks like no archetype is compatible with any other archetype. Bummer.


Shade Tamer
Getting Death Knell (a 1st level spell, requires touch and a dying target and a save, provokes because it’s casting a spell, doesn’t stack with itself) as a standard action at 13th level is pretty lackluster.

If it were maybe a move or swift action I could see it being used.

How about allowing spending a point of animus to make it a free action plus the casting doesn’t provoke? That feels more like a 13th level ability to me and a good in-combat animus use.

Soul Caster (Prestige Class)
"Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a soul caster knows is not affected by her Wisdom score (See Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook)."

Probably should change “Wisdom” to “Initiator Modifier”, for consistency.

Glyph Casting:
"(mystic or soul caster; if the character has the ability to cast both she must select one class or the other)."

As pointed out by another person, "soul caster" should be replaced by “animus adept” in this sentence.


----

I can’t see more mechanical issues at this time, so now its opinion time!

Just to reiterate my stance from previous looks at animus-using PCs: I don’t like animus abilities that beg to be used outside of combat.

Combat is an artificial construct that is started the moment someone decides it is – the DM asks for initiative, the PCs decide to attack someone or something etc.

Animus-based class abilities that would be useful outside combat, but that are restricted by requiring animus (and thus restricted to combat only) require an unusually high level of ‘buy in’ from all players and the DM as to how it should work – either everyone buys into combat starts only when story dictates, or everyone buys into combat can be started anytime someone wants to. If you don’t get a consensus, then you risk broken expectations – maybe the DM expects you to start combat whenever you want (such as at my tables), maybe the player just requests combat starting by sparing with a fellow PC, or maybe the player has to go start a non-lethal bar fight just to get his animus going to use some class abilities.



Force Mystic: Looks good from this perspective – no animus-using class abilities really benefit from being used out of combat.
Noetic: Also looks good; Animus surge can be used out of combat, but since it augments maneuvers, no one is going to want to, as maneuvers that benefit from animus are combat-oriented maneuvers.
Sage: No abilities that spends animus at all, just animus themes, so it looks good.
Shade Tamer: Has some that require Animus that might be used out of combat BUT an alternate means of payment (HP loss) is available, so much less likely for people to want to ‘artificially’ generate animus.
Wandslinger: Subbing Animus for wand charges is something people will want out of combat; same with Infuse Metamagic.
Soul Caster: The Claim spell class feature is definitely something they will want to use outside combat – have an ally cast a spell on you to get it added to your list for a day. Animus Metacasting is another one that will desired out of combat.




So I’m worrying about Wandslinger and Soulcaster – they have some very nice abilities that beg to be used out of combat.

I’m not a fan of the Soulcaster's Improved Claim Spell HP ‘burn’ as an alternate cost – it seems easy to circumvent by just having an ally cast the spell anew on you the next day instead of accepting burn.


I’m not sure what to suggest about how to limit them or the like, but I’d say maybe taking extra time to gather animus out of combat might work, as would an alternate method of payment (HP damage is good).

[Air0r]

I wouldn't mind seeing a drawback* or two related to animus.
*drawbacks like in Ultimate Campaign style drawbacks.

[ErrantX]

Animus Surge's Benefit text in the table remains uncorrected. Should be caster and not manifester level.

Soul Caster-Glyph Casting
It still references itself in the second parenthesis's text.

Anima Saber
Long Blades is not a weapon group, or at least not a pre-existing one. It's either Light Blades or Heavy Blades.

Again, the 6k gp base price is like a considerable hurdle (Particularly because it means it won't see play until at least levels 8-9), even if enchanting it as a magic weapon is now cheaper. Similarly, the cap on +5 total makes it a rather weak option in comparison to more commonly used weapons, even if it's just endgame-wise. As is, the only situation where I see it as a viable weapon is a levels 9-14 build that completely ignored str or agi in favor of the initiation modifier and has taken Intuitive Fighting.
Also, forcing both Craft Magic Arms and Armor as well as Craft Wondrous Item feels like a hurdle in making it.

Fixed the above table and typos. Anima saber is a one handed martial melee weapon. If you aren't proficient with all martial, you're not proficient with it. You'd have to take Martial Weapon Proficiency (anima saber). Anima saber enhancement bonus rules tweaked and removed craft wondrous item from needed feats to craft. Set price to 4500gp. Thoughts?


While I loved the Wisdom-based noetic, it really did scream to be Cha-base from its Wilder influence.

My own wish list is ONE more full BAB Int-mod initiator. Warder is great but its main class feature set (Defensive focus, aegis, Armiger's mark) just never seems to compliment my planned builds. :)

Well... we as a team decided that we didn't feel full BAB classes needed to be the standard because of all the perks and power, a 3/4 BAB chassis was fine. I see where you're coming from though. What sort of hurdles are you coming up against or things you'd like to see? Reply here or PM me.


Quick couple of items:

Soul Caster (Prestige Class)

"Maneuvers: Ability to initiate 3rd level maneuvers and stances of the Elemental Flux discipline, and possess at least one strike and one stance of 3rd level or higher"

This seems a little convoluted to me, and I'm trying to understand what might qualify.

seems like the lowest qualifying set of items is:
a 3rd level Elemental Flux STRIKE
a 3rd level elemental Flux Stance

Could also qualify as:
a 3rd level Elemental Flux BOOST
a 4th level Elemental Flux STRIKE
a 3rd level elemental Flux Stance

Seems like it would just be clearer to say:
"Maneuvers: Ability to initiate at least one 3rd level or higher strike of the Elemental Flux discipline, and possess at least one Elemental Flux stance of 3rd level or higher"

Which would let someone enter with a 4th level Elemental Flux strike and 3rd level Elemental Flux stance.

Maybe I'm missing it though and its supposed to be any discipline stance of 3rd level or higher?

Stealing your wording. It's cleaner and I think it works better. And above I addressed some of your comments on the saber.



Thanks for the quick turnaround on this! I have a few comments.


Can I suggest that this be 1/4 levels to a max of 1 higher than the level of the wand's spell? I think that would balance it well for both low and high level play. For reference, that would put the minimum cost to achieve each level of bonus at 1,500; 6,000; 18,000; 36,000; 60,000. This maps relatively closely to weapon costs.

I... am not sure how that maths, I'm afraid. No matter what you do the wand is going to be incredibly cheaper. Or am I not getting something here? :smallconfused:



This still says "Spend animus to increase manifester level temporarily" in the table.


I would say this is a bit too weak now. Even at higher levels, it's questionable if this is as good as weapon specialization.

Fixed.



Great, but I noticed one more thing. Why does a PrC that adds casting to a class with good Will and bad Fort have good Fort and bad Will?

Fixed. I either wasn't thinking or was being dumb.


Better, but I still am not too fond of it. The non-improved version is still pretty much a ribbon. It offers a pretty small benefit that is inconsistent, impractical to improve, and still not too cheap.

I think one of my problems is that it uses an in-combat resource for out-of-combat benefits, which leads to silly situations. As written, you might delay killing the last enemy in order to use a scroll on yourself and intentionally fail the save, which makes no sense in character. I'm not sure what to do about that. Perhaps allowing them to create an animus debt that reduces the amount of animus they start the next combat with?

I would like to suggest this as an alternative for the ability: "At 3rd level, the soul caster has learned a way to use the magic of her enemies against them once she’s felt the bite of their magic. If a spell or spell-like ability is used on the soul caster and she suffers its effect (if the effect allows for a saving throw, she must fail the saving throw to use this ability), as an immediate action she may try to claim and incorporate the spell and use it herself. When claiming a spell, she must first identify the spell with a Spellcraft check, and if successful, she spends one point of animus per level of the spell and may immediately cast that spell herself." (perhaps stagger or nauseate the soul caster for a round to offset the action economy)


I think this doesn't need the limit to +5 anymore. At higher levels, energy resistance is more common anyway.

Edit: Can I ask for the Wandslinger to get Wand Mastery at some point?

Worked in Wand Mastery - it's coming for the next update. Fixed the saber stuff. More soul caster stuff to follow below.



Shade Tamer
Getting Death Knell (a 1st level spell, requires touch and a dying target and a save, provokes because it’s casting a spell, doesn’t stack with itself) as a standard action at 13th level is pretty lackluster.

If it were maybe a move or swift action I could see it being used.

How about allowing spending a point of animus to make it a free action plus the casting doesn’t provoke? That feels more like a 13th level ability to me and a good in-combat animus use.

Yeah, I guess. I worried about it being seen as too strong by those who are are more conservative.


Soul Caster (Prestige Class)
"Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a soul caster knows is not affected by her Wisdom score (See Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook)."

Probably should change “Wisdom” to “Initiator Modifier”, for consistency.

Glyph Casting:
"(mystic or soul caster; if the character has the ability to cast both she must select one class or the other)."

As pointed out by another person, "soul caster" should be replaced by “animus adept” in this sentence.

Fixed.


So I’m worrying about Wandslinger and Soulcaster – they have some very nice abilities that beg to be used out of combat.

I’m not a fan of the Soulcaster's Improved Claim Spell HP ‘burn’ as an alternate cost – it seems easy to circumvent by just having an ally cast the spell anew on you the next day instead of accepting burn.


I’m not sure what to suggest about how to limit them or the like, but I’d say maybe taking extra time to gather animus out of combat might work, as would an alternate method of payment (HP damage is good).

I've got some ideas I'm ruminating over with soul caster. The concept in my head that I was trying to accomplish was something akin to animus-powered spells and the martial equivalents of being able to take a hit and throw it back magically speaking - think Final Fantasy Blue Mage for an easy example. I had an idea for making it a stance for the class where you can do that but then that hampers you from using other stances. I think the idea posted above by TiaC might be the more beneficial way to go...


I wouldn't mind seeing a drawback* or two related to animus.
*drawbacks like in Ultimate Campaign style drawbacks.

I'm not certain if I'm going to do any traits or drawbacks for this. I'm open to suggestions because I'm personally not terribly inspired for them.

----

I'll update the master document with changes here tonight.

-X

[Air0r]

maybe something like:
When you were young, you had terrible animus seizures that left your body damaged and broken for some time.
While your body was healed and you eventually learned to control your animus, the mental scars remain.
Effect: You suffer a 5% chance of being stunned whenever you initially begin accumulating Animus for the first time in a day, as your mind occasionally recalls the shock of what the unstable energies once did to you.
Special: This drawback is only available if you possess an animus pool, whether through the mystic class, an archetype, or the Tap Animus feat.

[TiaC]

I... am not sure how that maths, I'm afraid. No matter what you do the wand is going to be incredibly cheaper. Or am I not getting something here? :smallconfused:
I screwed up writing it and didn't get across what I meant. I meant to say "Wands gain a magical enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls of +1 per 4 caster levels of the wand, up to a maximum of one greater than the level of the spell contained in the wand." Thus, to get a +5 needs a 4th level wand at CL 20, costing 60,000gp. That's how I got the prices to be 1,500; 6,000; 18,000; 36,000; 60,000. (750 x .5 x 4, 750 x 1 x 8, 750 x 2 x 12, 750 x 3 x 16, 750 x 4 x 20) I like this because it allows scaling from +1 to +5 without making any cost unreasonably high or low.


I've got some ideas I'm ruminating over with soul caster. The concept in my head that I was trying to accomplish was something akin to animus-powered spells and the martial equivalents of being able to take a hit and throw it back magically speaking - think Final Fantasy Blue Mage for an easy example. I had an idea for making it a stance for the class where you can do that but then that hampers you from using other stances. I think the idea posted above by TiaC might be the more beneficial way to go...
Glad you like it.

[Fenryr]

Ok, Anima Saber!

If the weapon does energy damage, what happens if you do additional damage with maneuvers? Any Primal Fury or Cursed Razor. The additional damage is energy too?

[GhorrinRedblade]

I saw one or two folks mention that the Anima Saber is currently listed as being part of the "long blades" group, which is not a thing. Is that supposed to be "heavy blades"?

[ErrantX]

Updated the main document - still haven't made any changes to Soul Caster because I'm still working out how I'm going to work with it.

Changelog
-Fixed wording in glyph casting for soul caster.
-Anima saber is a one handed martial melee weapon. If you aren't proficient with all martial, you're not proficient with it. You'd have to take Martial Weapon Proficiency (anima saber).
-bonus damage from maneuvers that does specifically list a type inflicts the same type of damage as the anima saber. Damage that specifies its type or changes the damage type of the attack supersedes the energy damage of the saber.
-anima saber enhancement bonus rules tweaked and removed craft wondrous item from needed feats to craft.
-changed elemental soul to add an additional 1d6 for that chosen element.
-fixed animus surge on the table

-X

[angelpalm]

I am liking the look of it overall. My only issue right now is Sage not being compatible with Aurora Soul. That would be excellent if you could stack the two together.

[ATalsen]

Force Mystic (Archetype)

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies / Arcane Missiles (Su)

Neither Weapon proficiencies nor the Force Missile description says the Force Mystic is proficient with the use of Arcane Missiles. Since they act so similarly to a normal weapon, and you can buy a Weapon Focus in them, proficiency should probably be listed.

Soulknife puts mind blade proficiency under its it in the Weapon and Armor Proficiencies, and this seems like a similar effect.


Augmented Missiles (Su)
Just a formatting comment: it feels like the last paragraph where it describes the process of adding/augmenting should come right before the list of augments.

I have read the section a few times now and each time I kind of stumble on the question ‘how does it work’, until I remember the actions and limits are listed at the end.


Paraelemental Animus (Su)
Is the selection of your second (or more) active element type permanent, or can you make a new set of selections each time you change your active element type?


Forced Attunement (Su)
I’m not sure if this is meant to be a buff to allies, a debuff to opponents, an odd mix of those, or a combo of both. Right now it’s an odd mix.

Currently this happens:

Fire: targets get fire immunity and cold vulnerability (could be a buff to friends or a debuff to enemies)
Air: vulnerability to Acid (only a debuff)
Earth: vulnerability to Electricity (only a debuff)
Water: targets get cold immunity and fire vulnerability (could be a buff to friends or a debuff to enemies)



Also it references ‘subtype’ without actually using pretty much any of the mechanics for creature subtypes, and that’s really confusing. It’s also probably a bad idea to reference an external source in this case (Polymorph was bad because it referenced other sources that could be added to or changed; Metamorphosis is much better because its only self-referential), when it would be clearer to make it self-contained.

Since you have to spell out certain ones now, it’s probably about the same wording count to just spell out what you want it to do instead of making a reference.

For example:
“Targets hit by these missiles suffer no damage, but gain a resistance and vulnerability based on the force mystic’s current elemental attunement. Fire attunement grants Fire immunity and Cold vulnerability. Air attunement grants Electricity immunity and Acid vulnerability. Earth grants Acid immunity and Electricity vulnerability. Water grants Cold immunity and Fire vulnerability. This attunement lasts for up to one minute or until dismissed by the force mystic (as a free action). This replaces the quell magic class feature.”

Naturally if you didn’t intend to grant immunity, that can be cut, or replaced by some amount of Resistance instead of immunity.



Sage (Archetype)

Animus Infusion
I know what you mean here, but it reads a bit differently than the meaning to me:
“he may be subjected to spells or powers that raise the dead without costly material components”

It sounds (to me) like the power or spell used cannot have costly material components, instead of the spell or power that usually requires costly components doesn’t when cast on a 20th level sage.



Shade Tamer (Archetype)

Meditation of the Damned (Su)
“Undead creatures under the control of the shade tamer that are adjacent to his position are healed by this effect for the amount of negative energy damage he would inflict upon a foe.”

What about undead NOT under the Tamer’s control? It seems implied that they don’t heal, but without specific text, they do, because its negative energy. But if they do, then the text about the ones under your control is not needed.

I think simply saying “Undead creatures that are adjacent to his position are healed…” would work.


Unsettling Aura (Su)
Just a wording choice commentary on this one:
“when dealing with those unaccustomed to death. Examples of this being animals that have been combat trained”

Where you say ‘example of this’ I’m expecting an example of those *unaccustomed to death*, where the sentence instead goes into those *accustomed* to death and not affected by the aura. I think it’s more valuable to give the list you do give (of those accustomed), so it’s just a bit of odd wording that maybe could be modified a bit.


Deathly Garden:
I mentioned before that I didn’t think that Death Knell as a standard action was really a great 13th level ability – I think you mentioned being concerned about its abuse-ability.

To my eyes the limiting factor for Death Knell (besides usually having something better to do with your action), is the number of dying (but not dead) targets you can get adjacent to. Its granted at a high enough level where often opponents will just be killed outright by whatever attack drops them, and at most the Tamer can ever only get death knell off once per opponent.


Wandslinger (Archetype)
Will this one be getting an update in the future along with Soul Caster?


Feats

Animus Surge (General)
This one seems odd to me in the wording of how much you can spend. I find the wording you use in Psi-Animus Assault to be much easier to understand; maybe you can use that wording in this feat?


Two Wand Mojo [Combat]
Typo: “unable to finally control”
Switch finally to finely


Magic Items

Spellcannon & Spell Bullet
It seems to me that the spellcannon is too expensive to be seen in most campaigns, and that the Spell Bullets ONLY work with Spellcannons, so their likelihood of inclusion in a campaign is very small.

After doing math on the price and subtracting out the cost of a +3 enhancement the base price for the weapon is 25,000.


Improves loading speed by 1 step
Animus use: +1d6 / 1 bullet / fire spell bullet


Improving reloading is solid (maybe as high as a +2 value, but probably not, as you can get free-action reloading with metal/alchemical cartridges plus rapid reload as well). Animus use is ok (no more than a +1, probably less because it’s only 1 per round, and its actually a cost if you are using a spell bullet, not a bonus)

I think I’d drop the base cost from 25 down to either 18k (still reasonably expensive @ a final price of 36K) or maybe 8K (good deal @ 26K). Probably I'd go somewhere in the middle of those values.


Naturally there’s room for full magic items built like this, but if I were to offer a suggestion for a rebuild, I’d package this set of abilities as a flat +2 Weapon Special ability that can be added to any one-handed firearm. Then you would see Spell Bullets as a viable ammo type more often, because the lowest pricing for a +1 Spellcannon pistol would be ~18K.

[Adam1949]

This is completely just an opinion with no backing in mechanics, but I REALLY want Sage changed so that it can stack with Aurora Soul. The only thing they overlap on is the 2nd-level bonus feat; is there a way to change Sage so that it can stack with Aurora Soul? When I imagine a "sage", I imagine a guy stroking a long beard and punching people's lights out with his sheer physical and mental perfection, you know?

[ATalsen]

Although I know you are working on the Soul Caster mechanics, heres some items to change based purely on the newly released DSP Errata doc.

You probably know this already, but hey, just in case. :)


Maneuvers:
"and at 2nd, 5th, and 8th levels she may exchange a known maneuver for a different maneuver that she qualifies for."

Errata removes this line from all classes, since base initiator classes now progress swapping based on IL.


Stances Known:
"At 3rd and 8th level a soul caster learns a new martial stance from the Elemental Flux, Riven Hourglass, Shattered Mirror, and Veiled Moon disciplines. She must meet the stance's prerequisites to learn it."

Applying errata changes to this line it would come out as:
"At 4th level and again at 6th level and 10th level, a soul caster learns a new stance from any of the disciplines available to her as a soul caster. She must meet the stance's prerequisites to learn it.”

(That assumes of course you want to make the leap to the new format of getting 3 stances for a PrC).

[ErrantX]

Been out of commission this week due to hurting my back. Able to sit at the computer again - will update the document soon with changes. Thank you for the continued interest!

EDIT: Updated.
Changelog 6/17/17
-Fixed wording in force mystic proficiencies to make them able to use their own arcane missiles.
-Fixed the order of paragraphs in force mystic's missile augments.
-Fixed wording in forced attunement so it actually works as intended.
-Fixed wording (I hope) in Shade Tamer's unnatural aura.
-Changed up Deathly Garden to be more maneuver based.
-Fixed typo in Two Wand Mojo
-Reduced cost on Spellcannon to be more reasonable and changed it to require Scribe Scroll instead of Craft Wondrous Item.
-Updating wording in soul caster's maneuver sections to jive with recent errata.
-Soul Caster gets a modified claim spell at 2nd level, and gets Font of Animus at 3rd level.
-still haven't figured out how to fix Claim Spell. Working on it.

-X

[skaddix]

Cool stuff although all I really want to do is bolt Power Points onto a Harbinger.

[ErrantX]

Cool stuff although all I really want to do is bolt Power Points onto a Harbinger.

That's Gareth's and I'm not going to touch that with a 10ft pole.

-X

[Lord_Gareth]

Cool stuff although all I really want to do is bolt Power Points onto a Harbinger.

Your enthusiasm is flattering but this is the playtest for an expansion on the Mystic class, my friend. It'd be a great help to us if you could reserve your requests for a more on-topic venue?

[Eox]

Does the Shade Tamer keep using their wisdom to determine HP when they gain the lich template?

Also, with their rebalancing in the PoW errata, might I suggest a feat/trait for Force Mystics allowing sacred/profane damage?

[Shaella]

Ok, so, lets talk Noetic Mystic
Conceptually I love the idea of this Archetype. I like the Wilder, its my favorite psionic class, the Mystic has always intrigued me, the result should go together like peanutbutter and jelly.
It unfortunately, has not. Let me explain

See, replacing Arcane Defense with surging euphoria is OK, its actually a decent trade, not great but overall its fine
The problem comes with the Animus Surge, basically, you can choose to surge on a maneuver and exceed the usual animus limit with said boosted animus
This gives a variety of effects, but honestly? Most of the Animus boosts are pretty meh. Insight bonuses to hit, increase DC, do 1/2 your level in damage (what? How is this a thing), penetrate resistance and teleports.. They're all ok
but the thing is, is getting a few more of those limited boosts.. How does that compare to, say
Massively increasing your groups mobility with Air glyph
Which at 19th level gives them all pounce + an extra attack that stacks with haste
or Darkness glyph both protecting people with concealment, as well as making invisible enemies a total joke
Earth that makes them much, much tankier and protects from combat maneuvers
Fire, which is WAY BIGGER damage boost than Animus surge and Surging euphoria combined
Same goes of Illumination, which makes illusions worthless, Metal, which gives fort saves and AC boosts, as well as later ignoring DR, and Water, which gives goddamn freedom of movement
Elemental Glyphs are INSANELY strong, and they function as a force multiplier that will stack with most other force multipliers like Bard ****, making them absolutely insane.
When you trade out elemental Glyphs with an archetype, whatever replaces them needs to be ****ing -strong-, you're giving away the Mystic's core as team support, so you better get something big out of it
Animus surge isn't that. Its honestly not even close, the boosts animus augments offer from the current Mystic are rather lacking in punch.

Noetic Mystic is conceptually a 'selfish' archetype of the Mystic, but its selfish powers are so weak its hardly even worth doing. Were it to be doing something like that, perhaps it could be applying a Glyph of its choice to itself, but not to allies, this would give it a clear identity as a very SELFISH Mystic, one that can potentially do much greater things on its own than other Mystics, won't be as good as a party contributor.

As it is, Noetic Mystic is just a straight up downgrade in almost every aspect, in addition to the baffling choice to give it Wild Talent as a free feat to make it psionic rather than Awakened Animus, which would play way better with its 'psionic' flavor mechanically, as well as natively allow Animus -> PP conversion for use with Sleeping Goddess.

In addition, lets look at its Discipline spread.

E-flux is Int based skillwise
Riven Hourglass, Sleeping Goddess, and Solar Flare are Wisdom based
Veiled moon is Dex based and the only Charisma based one is Mithral Current

Realistically, this is very bad, it means that a large majority of its Counters are going to be weaker than normal, it may be worth considering giving the Noetic Mystic Charisma based Autohypnosis, or a boost of some kind to the skill, letting it use whats arguably its signature discipline as a Psionic Mystic, Sleeping Goddess, much more effectively.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Ok, so, lets talk Noetic Mystic
Conceptually I love the idea of this Archetype. I like the Wilder, its my favorite psionic class, the Mystic has always intrigued me, the result should go together like peanutbutter and jelly.
It unfortunately, has not. Let me explain

See, replacing Arcane Defense with surging euphoria is OK, its actually a decent trade, not great but overall its fine
The problem comes with the Animus Surge, basically, you can choose to surge on a maneuver and exceed the usual animus limit with said boosted animus
This gives a variety of effects, but honestly? Most of the Animus boosts are pretty meh. Insight bonuses to hit, increase DC, do 1/2 your level in damage (what? How is this a thing), penetrate resistance and teleports.. They're all ok
but the thing is, is getting a few more of those limited boosts.. How does that compare to, say
Massively increasing your groups mobility with Air glyph
Which at 19th level gives them all pounce + an extra attack that stacks with haste
or Darkness glyph both protecting people with concealment, as well as making invisible enemies a total joke
Earth that makes them much, much tankier and protects from combat maneuvers
Fire, which is WAY BIGGER damage boost than Animus surge and Surging euphoria combined
Same goes of Illumination, which makes illusions worthless, Metal, which gives fort saves and AC boosts, as well as later ignoring DR, and Water, which gives goddamn freedom of movement
Elemental Glyphs are INSANELY strong, and they function as a force multiplier that will stack with most other force multipliers like Bard ****, making them absolutely insane.
When you trade out elemental Glyphs with an archetype, whatever replaces them needs to be ****ing -strong-, you're giving away the Mystic's core as team support, so you better get something big out of it
Animus surge isn't that. Its honestly not even close, the boosts animus augments offer from the current Mystic are rather lacking in punch.

Noetic Mystic is conceptually a 'selfish' archetype of the Mystic, but its selfish powers are so weak its hardly even worth doing. Were it to be doing something like that, perhaps it could be applying a Glyph of its choice to itself, but not to allies, this would give it a clear identity as a very SELFISH Mystic, one that can potentially do much greater things on its own than other Mystics, won't be as good as a party contributor.

As it is, Noetic Mystic is just a straight up downgrade in almost every aspect, in addition to the baffling choice to give it Wild Talent as a free feat to make it psionic rather than Awakened Animus, which would play way better with its 'psionic' flavor mechanically, as well as natively allow Animus -> PP conversion for use with Sleeping Goddess.

In addition, lets look at its Discipline spread.

E-flux is Int based skillwise
Riven Hourglass, Sleeping Goddess, and Solar Flare are Wisdom based
Veiled moon is Dex based and the only Charisma based one is Mithral Current

Realistically, this is very bad, it means that a large majority of its Counters are going to be weaker than normal, it may be worth considering giving the Noetic Mystic Charisma based Autohypnosis, or a boost of some kind to the skill, letting it use whats arguably its signature discipline as a Psionic Mystic, Sleeping Goddess, much more effectively.

Those are very good points; something was bugging me about the archetype, and this about sums it up. What could be a psionic ability worth giving up glyphs for?

[Shaella]

Those are very good points; something was bugging me about the archetype, and this about sums it up. What could be a psionic ability worth giving up glyphs for?

Realistically I'm not sure the powers have to be psionic based, but if its going to be giving up a team based power like Gylphs, it should be replaced with a different set of team enhancing powers, or more likely for this archetype, gain a fair more powerful selfish boost than Animus Surge is currently providing

I think applying glyphs to self only, perhaps with increased effect, much like dervish of dawn bard, would be an excellent way to do this

[skaddix]

I say it would be better to try selfish because really its practically impossible to give as good team buff wise as Elemental Glyphs they got something for every situation. Maybe slightly weaker but more buffs at the same time but Knight Chandler kind does that especially if it gets revisions.

[Shaella]

I say it would be better to try selfish because really its practically impossible to give as good team buff wise as Elemental Glyphs they got something for every situation. Maybe slightly weaker but more buffs at the same time but Knight Chandler kind does that especially if it gets revisions.

I'd absolutely agree that I'd prefer to see a selfish basis for the archetype, it seems fitting with the Wilder basis.

[Eox]

It'd take a lot more writing, but a new set of glyphs based on the psionic disciplines would be fitting and neat.

[ErrantX]

Thank you very much for that feedback, Shaella! I'll go back to the bricks on that one and see what I can do to make it have the 'oomph' it loses because glyphs were removed due to their magical feel. I agree it was intended to be more selfish so let's see what I can come up with that has a 'wild surge' feel with an animus theme. Suggestions are always welcomed and encouraged and again, thank you for all the feedback and any that is forthcoming.

-X

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Another thing is that Awakened Animus is so central to the archetype, I don't think it makes sense not to grant it. Maybe instead of Psionic Talent if they already have Wild Talent?

[Rosencrantz14]

I recently used a Shade Tamer and some of his undead minions as an encounter in one of my games. While it resulted in my first TPK, it was about as powerful as I expected it to be. The biggest things that turned it from a challenging encounter to an overwhelming encounter was the poor rolls on the PCs part, extremely poor tactics on their part, and the fact that they were missing their primary blaster. I'd say so far that it is about as well balanced as a necromancer class could be.

[ErrantX]

I recently used a Shade Tamer and some of his undead minions as an encounter in one of my games. While it resulted in my first TPK, it was about as powerful as I expected it to be. The biggest things that turned it from a challenging encounter to an overwhelming encounter was the poor rolls on the PCs part, extremely poor tactics on their part, and the fact that they were missing their primary blaster. I'd say so far that it is about as well balanced as a necromancer class could be.

Honestly, this makes me stupid happy to hear. Thank you for this feedback, and if I may a couple of questions? Any part of it feel more OP than it should for a comparable level? More or less power than a stock mystic? Thanks again :smallbiggrin:

-X

P.S. I will be addressing changes to noetic and soul caster this week. Someone had asked if there was anything else pending on Wandslinger - is there any glaring things that now need addressing with it?

[Swaoeaeieu]

if a shade tamer uses the black art Dark Connection to let an undead minion use a Unquiet Grave maneuver, does that minion get the grave call benefit of said maneuver?

quietly gonna re ask my question as i too would like to NPC one of these dope-$%@ necromancers.

[ErrantX]

quietly gonna re ask my question as i too would like to NPC one of these dope-$%@ necromancers.

I updated it in the document but yes, the minion will get the grave effect if they are the ones the shade tamer initiates it through. It's easy to miss in the update and I'm happy to post it here - that was a great catch. I had forgotten about the grave call effects in my time away.



Dark Connection: The shade tamer is capable of having his undead minions perform his martial maneuvers for him at a thought, mentally commanding their rotting forms through the motions. As a swift action, the shade tamer orders an undead creature under his control within 30-ft. of his position to initiate a maneuver he has readied as if he had initiated it himself. The undead creature uses the initiator’s or its own attributes and base attack bonus (whichever is stronger) to initiate the strike (the undead creature does not gain bonuses from the mundane or magical equipment the initiator is currently using and must use its own equipment). If the shade tamer possesses and initiates an Unquiet Grave maneuver through his undead minion, the undead minion gains the benefits of the maneuver’s grave call (if applicable).



-X

[skaddix]

I'd absolutely agree that I'd prefer to see a selfish basis for the archetype, it seems fitting with the Wilder basis.

I would agree the Noetic seems to be characterized by wild unchecked power and gives up the supportive capabilities of the base class...
yeah I expect a character that get dish serious damage at risk to themselves and teammates. Seem to have the risk to themselves down but I am not seeing nearly enough damage or CC to justify picking it besides liking the theme.

[Swaoeaeieu]

I updated it in the document but yes, the minion will get the grave effect if they are the ones the shade tamer initiates it through. It's easy to miss in the update and I'm happy to post it here - that was a great catch. I had forgotten about the grave call effects in my time away.




-X

Whoops. thats what i get for not rereading the documents XD

thanks for the response!

[ErrantX]

Quick update - I had to take a break from like, life for a little while due to health issues and such. I'm recovered some and I'm hitting this to get it finished ASAP and get updates this weekend. I'm working on this book and a stalker book currently so I'll have some things to hit the pipe soon.

-X

[ErrantX]

OK - updates to soul caster and noetic are complete, and some adjustments to sage too.

Changelog
-The nerfs made to Ancient Wisdom in the sage archetype make it largely a stat swap which is equivalent to half a feat, so... kind of a throw away. Lump into the price paid for animus infusion if you will. It's free at 1st level, to signify you actually getting something for your entry free to start with as well (yes I know it makes it more attractive to mystic dips but it's not THAT big of a bonus unless I'm way off base). You can now have your punchy wiseman mystic. You're welcome. :)
-Redid pretty much everything in Noetic, so you may want to give it a thorough re-read.
-Soul Caster - Claim Spell is gone, replaced with recast spell and spell analysis. Moved font of animus to 2nd level and shifted bonus feat at 7th level to 8th level.

-X

[Tuvarkz]

On Noetic's Emotional Attunement

to change his attack’s damage (including the strike’s bonus damage) to from his weapon’s normal damage type to fire damage.
Unless I'm wrong, shouldn't the right word order be:
"to change his attack’s damage (including the strike’s bonus damage) from his weapon’s normal damage type to fire damage."

On Noetic's Animus Surge

does not count towards his animus limit for augmenting his maneuvers per round
I'm fairly sure the animus limit is per maneuver and not per round?

Noetic's Surging Emotions

At 19th level, the noetic gains a 25 spell resistance
Shouldn't it be "gains spell resistance 25"

The new Soul Caster abilities look rather neat.

[ChrisAsmadi]

What's the caster level for the Shade Tamer's Black Arts that are based on spells?

[ErrantX]

On Noetic's Emotional Attunement

Unless I'm wrong, shouldn't the right word order be:
"to change his attack’s damage (including the strike’s bonus damage) from his weapon’s normal damage type to fire damage."

There was an extra 'to' in there. :smallredface:


On Noetic's Animus Surge

I'm fairly sure the animus limit is per maneuver and not per round?

Animus has limits from animus augmention from the class chassis itself, and then there are the limits built into Flux maneuvers both.


Noetic's Surging Emotions

Shouldn't it be "gains spell resistance 25"

The new Soul Caster abilities look rather neat.

I knew that didn't look right.

Cool, glad you like the PrC abilities. :smallbiggrin:



What's the caster level for the Shade Tamer's Black Arts that are based on spells?

My bad - I thought I had that in there. Added it in - uses your class level for caster level and initiator modifier saves when applicable.

-X

[Shaella]

Just gave the new Noetic a look-over and I have to say the new version is very exciting and impressive, I love the emotional attunement idea and I'll have to give it some testing, but my impression of it is pretty overwhelmingly positive.

[Da Beast]

Sorry if this is already spelled out somewhere and I missed it, but are the force mystic's arcane missiles rolled, like most energy attacks, as touch attacks or as normal attacks? If they use a normal attack roll then shouldn't force mystics get a way to add an enhancement bonus to keep their attack bonus relevant?

I'm also curious about why the force mystic gets four separate iterations of paraelemental attunment; if each iteration functions as a second active element just for arcane missiles, then wouldn't those plus the normal one mystics have by default come out to five total active elements when they only actually have four to chose from? Lastly, do these secondary active elements change when the mystic changes her normal active element or do they require their own actions to be changed? If each attunment requires its own action then I suppose that would clarify the need for a total of four secondary active elements (having all four on standby so you don't have to worry about losing one when you shift your primary attunment to match a secondary one) but it could still use some clarification in the text.

[ErrantX]

Just gave the new Noetic a look-over and I have to say the new version is very exciting and impressive, I love the emotional attunement idea and I'll have to give it some testing, but my impression of it is pretty overwhelmingly positive.

You threw the gauntlet my friend, and I'm glad I proved at least somewhat up to the challenge. I look forward to any in-depth review of it that you or any one else may bring to the table!


Sorry if this is already spelled out somewhere and I missed it, but are the force mystic's arcane missiles rolled, like most energy attacks, as touch attacks or as normal attacks? If they use a normal attack roll then shouldn't force mystics get a way to add an enhancement bonus to keep their attack bonus relevant?

It states that use of arcane missiles are a normal melee or ranged attacks, not touch attacks. For items to increase that attack bonus, look to the mystic bangle in the magic items section.


I'm also curious about why the force mystic gets four separate iterations of paraelemental attunment; if each iteration functions as a second active element just for arcane missiles, then wouldn't those plus the normal one mystics have by default come out to five total active elements when they only actually have four to chose from? Lastly, do these secondary active elements change when the mystic changes her normal active element or do they require their own actions to be changed? If each attunment requires its own action then I suppose that would clarify the need for a total of four secondary active elements (having all four on standby so you don't have to worry about losing one when you shift your primary attunment to match a secondary one) but it could still use some clarification in the text.

That's because I'm a stupid and forgot how to count on my fingers. Changed it up some. The changes as followed:


Paraelemental Animus (Su): At 6th level, the force mystic may blend multiple elemental types within her animus blast. This essentially allows the force mystic to have a secondary active element that allows for energy damage from her arcane missiles and from maneuvers that inflict energy damage to possess either energy type or both energy types simultaneously (example: Sarasia has fire as her active element, and when she reaches 6th level and gains this ability, she may select water as her second active element. Her arcane missile and maneuvers that inflict additional energy damage would inflict half fire and half cold for the damage type). The force mystic need not always use both energy types; she may choose to use one type or both as she decides. When blending two elements, the force mystic must spend a point of animus to fuel this ability until her next turn. When the force mystic changes her active element, she may change her secondary element(s) as part of the same action

At 10th level, the force mystic may select a third element, allowing her to use that energy damage type for arcane missiles or maneuvers at will as above, but she may not inflict damage as more than two elements at a time. At 14th level, the force mystic’s command over her active element allows her to change her active element as a swift action, or as a free action when changing stances at no animus cost.

At 18th level, the force mystic may consider all four elements her active element, and no longer needs to change active elements nor does she pay the animus cost to blend two elemental damage types together. This replaces the instant enlightenment class feature.

Thoughts and opinions?

-X

[Da Beast]

It states that use of arcane missiles are a normal melee or ranged attacks, not touch attacks. For items to increase that attack bonus, look to the mystic bangle in the magic items section.

Sorry, I guess I missed that. I only looked at the force mystic so far, I'll have to look more in depth when I have the time.


Thoughts and opinions?

It looks better, but I wonder if saying that a level 18 force mystic has all elements active and doesn't need to change them is correct. The way I'm reading this, the secondary elements only work for missile and strike damage, and there still needs to be a primary element to determine the benefits of elemental flux stances, boosts, or anything else that might run off of active element that isn't simply a damaging strike of force missile. How would a level 18+ force mystic use Embrace the Elements, Fluctuation Movement, and Variable Flux? Does she gain all of the benefits at once? Could this even be possible with a stance like Master of the Elements?

[ErrantX]

It looks better, but I wonder if saying that a level 18 force mystic has all elements active and doesn't need to change them is correct. The way I'm reading this, the secondary elements only work for missile and strike damage, and there still needs to be a primary element to determine the benefits of elemental flux stances, boosts, or anything else that might run off of active element that isn't simply a damaging strike of force missile. How would a level 18+ force mystic use Embrace the Elements, Fluctuation Movement, and Variable Flux? Does she gain all of the benefits at once? Could this even be possible with a stance like Master of the Elements?

I need to put in some language the bars the stance thing to specify the difference between primary active and the secondary actives you get from this ability - this was chiefly for blending damage types for missiles and strikes that do energy damage. This ability is intended to only allow you to blend damage types basically.

-X

[Shaella]

Yeah, I think the new Noetic is a real winner, it might need a few little editing passes (Love isn't a focus?), I love the weaving of emotional stuff that feels right out of occult and fits perfectly into the style of the mystic

The only thing I would say is that perhaps let them using their charisma score in the place of wisdom for stuff like Psionic Meditation.

[ErrantX]

Yeah, I think the new Noetic is a real winner, it might need a few little editing passes (Love isn't a focus?), I love the weaving of emotional stuff that feels right out of occult and fits perfectly into the style of the mystic

The only thing I would say is that perhaps let them using their charisma score in the place of wisdom for stuff like Psionic Meditation.

Editing aside, when I was writing the new noetic stuff up I was keeping it up against the old glyphs I was removing and trying to find that sweet spot between glyphs and wild surge types. Mechanically speaking, I think it looks fine but I also wrote Broken Blade so we all know that I'm not to be 100% trusted on that front. :smalltongue:

Any mechanic savvy folks who want to check my balance on these would be appreciated and make sure that they work as expected - you animus surge successfully, you get the surging emotions bonus based on your emotional attunement for X number of rounds (X = Intensity level of the surge). It seems pretty plain to me, but should I put in a notation about "if you change emotional attunement and surge again, X happens" ? My feeling is that if you're willing to change your emotional attunement and surge often, well, you're basically just stacking bonuses but it's selfish bonuses, unlike glyphs which by default are stronger because they influence more people and their actions/ability to influence.

-X