A world with the Internet

[tadkins]

Had a discussion recently with someone regarding this on one of my Discord groups, particularly in regards to knowledge checks. This is mainly a hypothetical scenario, as a modern-ish world with the Internet would likely have pretty different rulesets.

If someone needed to make a knowledge check on something; anyone ranging from a level 1 Commoner to a 30+ Intelligence level 20 Wizard, wouldn't a world with the Internet make that an easy and relatively painless process? It seems like a quick search on any subject over a smartphone would make having to invest greatly in most Knowledge skills pointless. There's the matter of being able to process and use that knowledge of course, and the other matter of extremely obscure and alien subjects that you likely can't get without a lot of study and discovery, but for probably 99% of the subject matter a character would need in a campaign, the Internet would be an extremely powerful tool.

Agree/disagree? What are your thoughts?

[Ellrin]

Had a discussion recently with someone regarding this on one of my Discord groups, particularly in regards to knowledge checks. This is mainly a hypothetical scenario, as a modern-ish world with the Internet would likely have pretty different rulesets.

If someone needed to make a knowledge check on something; anyone ranging from a level 1 Commoner to a 30+ Intelligence level 20 Wizard, wouldn't a world with the Internet make that an easy and relatively painless process? It seems like a quick search on any subject over a smartphone would make having to invest greatly in most Knowledge skills pointless. There's the matter of being able to process and use that knowledge of course, and the other matter of extremely obscure and alien subjects that you likely can't get without a lot of study and discovery, but for probably 99% of the subject matter a character would need in a campaign, the Internet would be an extremely powerful tool.

Agree/disagree? What are your thoughts?

The problem with the internet is that, while a wealth of information is at your fingertips, there's so much that's sorted so poorly that finding the correct information can be challenging. To represent this challenge in-game, I would probably introduce a new skill, let's call it Google-Fu. It's a trained-only skill keyed to Wis (you need common sense to sort out the trash from the real information), and a check takes 1d10 rounds, or 1d10 minutes for obscure information. Simple subjects would probably be a DC 10 or 15, with most other subjects requiring a check against DC 20, though really obscure subjects could require DC 25 or higher. There would be a few--very few--subjects that would be impossible to find information on this way, usually for information that is both very specific and relatively obscure.

Failure means that you didn't find any relevant information you trusted, and failure by 5 or more means you found false information that you believed. The DM could optionally use the difference between the DC and the rolled result to determine how far off the mark the false information was. Like Knowledge checks, you can use the skill untrained to find information that's DC 10 or lower.

You can try again, but a second check for the same information requires 1d3 hours with a -5 on the check; if this check also fails, you can't try again for 24 hours (letting you start fresh and possibly with new ideas on what to search for), but then you start the process over without penalty.

[JustIgnoreMe]

Had a discussion recently with someone regarding this on one of my Discord groups, particularly in regards to knowledge checks. This is mainly a hypothetical scenario, as a modern-ish world with the Internet would likely have pretty different rulesets.

If someone needed to make a knowledge check on something; anyone ranging from a level 1 Commoner to a 30+ Intelligence level 20 Wizard, wouldn't a world with the Internet make that an easy and relatively painless process? It seems like a quick search on any subject over a smartphone would make having to invest greatly in most Knowledge skills pointless. There's the matter of being able to process and use that knowledge of course, and the other matter of extremely obscure and alien subjects that you likely can't get without a lot of study and discovery, but for probably 99% of the subject matter a character would need in a campaign, the Internet would be an extremely powerful tool.

Agree/disagree? What are your thoughts?

You could make the same argument about access to a well-stocked library (note for younger readers; a library was a place where people stored printouts of ebooks). Call of Cthulhu had a Library Use skill, to represent the fact that, yes, the information is all there in the Bodlean, but you still need to find it.

[tadkins]

The problem with the internet is that, while a wealth of information is at your fingertips, there's so much that's sorted so poorly that finding the correct information can be challenging. To represent this challenge in-game, I would probably introduce a new skill, let's call it Google-Fu. It's a trained-only skill keyed to Wis (you need common sense to sort out the trash from the real information), and a check takes 1d10 rounds, or 1d10 minutes for obscure information. Simple subjects would probably be a DC 10 or 15, with most other subjects requiring a check against DC 20, though really obscure subjects could require DC 25 or higher. There would be a few--very few--subjects that would be impossible to find information on this way, usually for information that is both very specific and relatively obscure.

Failure means that you didn't find any relevant information you trusted, and failure by 5 or more means you found false information that you believed. The DM could optionally use the difference between the DC and the rolled result to determine how far off the mark the false information was. Like Knowledge checks, you can use the skill untrained to find information that's DC 10 or lower.

You can try again, but a second check for the same information requires 1d3 hours with a -5 on the check; if this check also fails, you can't try again for 24 hours (letting you start fresh and possibly with new ideas on what to search for), but then you start the process over without penalty.

That's a good point, lot of false information that just anyone can put up there. I like your idea. xD


You could make the same argument about access to a well-stocked library (note for younger readers; a library was a place where people stored printouts of ebooks). Call of Cthulhu had a Library Use skill, to represent the fact that, yes, the information is all there in the Bodlean, but you still need to find it.

Of course, assuming you're in a city and have the time to research what you need. It's how it normally works, right? Libraries give circumstance bonuses to knowledge checks and whatnot?

But being able to whip out a smartphone and saying "Google Now, strange floating eyeball monster." would be a pretty tremendous advantage.

[Martin Greywolf]

When you are rolling knowledge to check for a specific fact, then yes, internet makes that redundant. Not only can you just google it, you can probably quickly find an expert with a free minute to ask him about it.

The problems arise when you start to apply knowledge outside of that. Looking up "weaknesses of French werewolves" is easy, but knowing that the guy in front of you is a werewolf, let alone a French subtype, is another thing entirely. That will require you to go find an expert on werewolves, send him pictures and answer his questions to get an answer. Since you're interacting with a person here, even if he is willing to do it for free, it is no different than going to find your local wizard's tower in medieval verse.

Let's see about an example. Answer me this question: who made this sword (http://www.palba.cz/album/albums/userpics/14582/mec1.jpg), and when? For the purposes of this excercise, you can't use a reverse image search, since we're simulating PCs snapping a picture of something in the field, and you can't translate the frum post that image was part of.

I'll wait.

Done?

The answer is 800 - 820 AD, and made by Ulfberth (whether that is a person, clan or guild is besides the point).

To arrive at this answer, you must have a wide knowledge in weapons of early middle ages, especially since the date depends on cross-referencing time of Ulfberth making swords and time during which a specific hilt type was commonly used (and is also somewhat disputed, but what from this period isn't?).

If you tried googling it, it probably took you a fair while to find anything on it, and that's for a famous sword - it's so-called Sword of St Stephen (in reality probably belonging to one of the Slavic chiefs, and then gifted or captured to be used as coronation sword of Hungary). If you found something like that on a river bank and tried to identify it, it would be even harder.

In conclusion, internet does help with particular facts, but knowledge skill still reigns supreme when it comes to applying said knowledge to solve larger problems.

[tadkins]

All good points, Martin Greywolf, and true. I think you've officially shut down this thread. xD

[BWR]

Ulfberth
Ulfberth .

that's Ulfberht

[Bullet06320]

then there's always restricted information limited to police agencies, government agencies, military, universities, corporations(dominos pizza, just imagine trolling their database, lol) and what not, that would be harder to access, without having the password or hacking in to them to find the information your looking for.

[Mordaedil]

that's Ulfberht

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/Lorange_1889_TabI.jpg
+ULFBERTHTH is an acceptable spelling.

[Fouredged Sword]

If I was DMing a game of 3.5 that took place in a world with the internet I would allow characters to make a gather information check as a second attempt at any knowledge check they made. The difference is that the knowledge check is instant and reflexive, the gather information check requires hours.

[Sian]

Yeah, finding information is equal parts knowing how to sort the true/plausible answers from the trolls/fake/misunderstanding/wrong answers and having enough knowledge to know how to phrase the question in the first place ...

In fact, Librarian work (both 'traditional' and modern) is up towards 90% knowing how to tease out the information needed and feed it to the right encyclopaedia/collected works/search engine to get pointed in the right direction to arrive at the answer and iterate on that processing with more and more specific queries in a smaller and smaller database until you have either the answer or a solid enough understanding to extrapolate. And as might already be implied, Librarian work nowadays have a sizeable focus on covering a lot of knowing your way around knowing how to throw questions at Search engines/Wiki's/Article achieves to get the proper answers

[Gildedragon]

I'd treat the internet as a library with a variable circumstance bonus, allowing one to use the skill unchecked. Failure by less than 5: didn't find anything, by 5 or more, false information.
Retries allowed

Searching would be a full round action for a +2 bonus (front page), 1d4 minutes for a +4 bonus, 2d6 minutes for a +6 bonus, 2d12+6 minutes for a +8 bonus, 1d4 hours for a +10 bonus (equivalent to asking on a specialized forum)

[Lazymancer]

If someone needed to make a knowledge check on something; anyone ranging from a level 1 Commoner to a 30+ Intelligence level 20 Wizard, wouldn't a world with the Internet make that an easy and relatively painless process?
Nope. You need to experience Edit Wars to realize the scope of the problem. It's not the knowledge Internet provides, but opinions.

What you can find painlessly is the common knowledge or everyday technological stuff. Everything else requires at least some familiarity with the field to be able to filter out misleading information and understand what is actually being said.

In game terms I'd define Internet as something along the lines of "spend 1d6 hours to use Knowledge untrained and gain +5 circumstance bonus; there is 10% chance that information will be false".



but for probably 99% of the subject matter a character would need in a campaign, the Internet would be an extremely powerful tool.
How to make explosives (and not blow yourself up)
How to interrogate a prisoner
What [insert radical ideology] is actually about
Who has city's best interests at heart

And I hadn't gotten to Knowledge(history) or (religion) yet.

[Psyren]

The last time D&D tried to internet, we ended up with a (psionic) vestige. That may have put a sour note on future attempts :smalltongue:

[Lvl 2 Expert]

I think knowledge checks still work pretty normal, it's just shifting the DC's in favor of the player.

If you are knowledgeable on a general subject you're going to be able to turn up much better information on details you're interested in. You know better keywords to search with, you have an easier time interpreting your sources and you're better at judging the value and reliability of your sources.

Try it, let a 5th grader and a biologist write a short essay on the role of mitochondria in the evolution of vertebrates. Both of them are going to do a lot better with sources like the ones the internet can connect them to than without, but with or without google you're going to see a massive difference in the quality of their reports.

This is why we all still go to school. It's not just to waste our time until the law says we're old enough to work.

And it's true for every subject. Sure, you can look up the date of any major historical event now within 3 minutes. Does that mean it's useless to learn dates? It might not be if a question comes up as to why the Chinese lost the battle of Hoth, because someone with all the extra knowledge will immediately be able to figure out that battle took place after the invention of the musket but before the destruction of the first death star, which would mean the Chinese were fighting without using the highly effective zeta formation invented for that occasion. (What? According to the opening crawl it's history...)

[danielxcutter]

The last time D&D tried to internet, we ended up with a (psionic) vestige. That may have put a sour note on future attempts :smalltongue:

Hmm? The one where a bunch of psions tried to use their psicrystals to do... something, I don't remember... right? Which one was that again?

[Elkad]

Answer me this question: who made this sword (http://www.palba.cz/album/albums/userpics/14582/mec1.jpg), and when? For the purposes of this excercise, you can't use a reverse image search, since we're simulating PCs snapping a picture of something in the field, and you can't translate the frum post that image was part of.

GIS: old bronze hilt sword. Mashed pagedown a few times. Useless. Too many cavalry sabres.
GIS: old gold hilt sword.
Well look there, http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/manufacturing/pix/sword_assortment.jpg looks similar.
Which leads me Here (http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/manufacturing/text/viking_sword.htm)

I'm already in the ballpark, and I spent under a minute. And ULFBERT is on the page, but it's OK if I miss that, because the key word is Viking.
So now I can use my words.
G: Old viking swords.
Oh look, the top result is the wiki page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulfberht_swords) for ulfbert swords.

[Psyren]

Hmm? The one where a bunch of psions tried to use their psicrystals to do... something, I don't remember... right? Which one was that again?

They tried to network all their psicrystals throughout their city using a psionic mythal at the center. Needless to say, it didn't end well.

[danielxcutter]

They tried to network all their psicrystals throughout their city using a psionic mythal at the center. Needless to say, it didn't end well.

If I remember correctly, they all disappeared into thin air, right? Maybe the mythal was trapped.