So what's up with the Circle of the Moon?

[CrackedChair]

Honestly, she it comes to a lot of optimization threads, a lot of people mention the druid's subclass, The Circle of the Moon (which is also a rather decent Castlevania game, btw).

I don't have exact traits of it with me right now, but from what I remember, it had a feature which allows a transformation into a beast as a bonus action. And everybody mentions it. I don't grasp how wild shape can be so powerful, since at higher levels you are still limited to beasts like bears and the like.

Could somebody tell me what I am missing here?

[nickl_2000]

Could somebody tell me what I am missing here?

A lot

1) The CR of the beast you can turn into grows as you level
2) You can turn into elementals eventually
3) When you are in beast form damage only harms the beast, not the actual HP of the PC
4) Even outside of beast form, you are still a full caster


there more, but I think I hit on the biggest points.

[DivisibleByZero]

Could somebody tell me what I am missing here?

You're missing the fact that it has separate HP pools for their natural humanoid form, and that of the beast. At low levels, they are quite literally the best tanks in the game because of this, and at high levels they are nigh unkillable (excluding instakill effects) once they can shapeshift at will because of this.
In the middle levels, you're still a full caster druid, but you can survive in melee if and when you want to on top of it, because any damage you take as a beast doesn't affect your actual HP until the beast form is "dead."

[CrackedChair]

So it's a power player or munchkin's go-to class, essentially.

It really does make me wonder if any DM put in some ways to screw these players over, but putting in enemies with weapons especially effective against beast or even better, druids themselves, or imposed some sort of restriction on shapechanging like enemies with Moonbeam.

[Hackulator]

So it's a power player or munchkin's go-to class, essentially.

It really does make me wonder if any DM put in some ways to screw these players over, but putting in enemies with weapons especially effective against beast or even better, druids themselves, or imposed some sort of restriction on shapechanging like enemies with Moonbeam.

I mean, its good but lots of things can be good in 5e. It's only TRULY gamebreaking at like, 20th level with is pretty unimportant. At least, I think 20th level is where you get infinite uses.

[nickl_2000]

I mean, its good but lots of things can be good in 5e. It's only TRULY gamebreaking at like, 20th level with is pretty unimportant. At least, I think 20th level is where you get infinite uses.

Yes it is at level 20 that you get infinite uses. There are still ways around it including the disintegrate spell.

[CrackedChair]

Wait, disintegrate can bypass the wild shape transformation at 0 hp?

Well, shoot, better keep this in mind if there is some jerk Druid who constantly flaunts his supposed 'superiority'.

Well, in case I actually feel like I should kill him.

[nickl_2000]

Wait, disintegrate can bypass the wild shape transformation at 0 hp?

Well, shoot, better keep this in mind if there is some jerk Druid who constantly flaunts his supposed 'superiority'.

Well, in case I actually feel like I should kill him.

There is a big long thread about it on here that you can find and read all about it.

[DivisibleByZero]

Wait, disintegrate can bypass the wild shape transformation at 0 hp?

Well, shoot, better keep this in mind if there is some jerk Druid who constantly flaunts his supposed 'superiority'.

Well, in case I actually feel like I should kill him.

That's why I mentioned instakill effects. If the spell/effect says that you die, it doesn't matter what your HP are. A Disintegrate or a Power Word Kill is particularly dangerous to a wildshaped druid, because they don't drop to 0 and revert to humanoid, they just die.
Also, many spells which would affect a humanoid and not a beast won't work, and vice verse.
2nd level Hold Person? Nope. You need a 5th level Hold Monster.
So wildshaped druids are both safer and more vulnerable at the same time, just in different ways.

[Specter]

Wait, disintegrate can bypass the wild shape transformation at 0 hp?

Well, shoot, better keep this in mind if there is some jerk Druid who constantly flaunts his supposed 'superiority'.

Well, in case I actually feel like I should kill him.

Any spell that outright kills people, instead of dropping them to 0hp, kills the druid.
If I recall, those are Disintegrate and Power Word Kill.

[CrackedChair]

But that means I can use Dominate Beast? Right?

[DivisibleByZero]

But that means I can use Dominate Beast? Right?

Yep. Another one of their weaknesses. And a particularly nasty one, seeing as it's lower level than Dominate.

[CrackedChair]

Oh man, a sorcerer I can build will have such a fun time if that Druid decides to be a turd about his supposed superiority.

[nickl_2000]

But that means I can use Dominate Beast? Right?


Yep. Another one of their weaknesses. And a particularly nasty one, seeing as it's lower level than Dominate.

But keep in mind that this spell is a Wisdom save, which the Druid has prof in and will have high stats in it.

[CrackedChair]

Hehe, that is what heightened spell is for!

[Elminster298]

Oh man, a sorcerer I can build will have such a fun time if that Druid decides to be a turd about his supposed superiority.

Wasting precious known spells just to potentially screw over one character seems like a huge waste to me... If you are the DM creating NPCs, "metagaming" your NPCs to specifically hurt one character is bad storytelling unless that NPC has a very specific reason to train for that purpose.

[CrackedChair]

Well, that is true, matter of factly.

[Theodoxus]

It was threads like this that convinced one my players to play a Mood druid in a Lost Mines game I was running. Poor fool, thought he'd be this beast of a bear and tear into everything... he scared all the goblins in the first cave encounter and they peppered him with arrows at distance. When he did get one in range to swipe at, he missed...

He dropped the game shortly thereafter, griping about being misled on the internets. I tried warning him, but he was so convinced because people went on about how OP moonies are...

Without some serious modification or multiclassing, beast forms are too squishy to tank, well, anything. Sure, you have an extra layer of decent HP for 2nd level, but if you're going in thinking you're replacing a barbarian tank or a heavy armor fighter, and act like it - you're going to do very poorly.

Best moonies I've seen, use their forms to deal with obstacles. One guy stayed in wolf spider form, laughing as the party wizard Webbed the opponents, so the druid strolled through the webs to poison the enemies, knocking them out. He also used the blindsight to track down a lone ogre hidden in magical darkness...

Bear's are fun, but this isn't WoW. Bear tanks aren't a thing in 5E. Use the bear as additional muscle, not THE muscle.

I won't touch a moonie... every druid I've played has been land - using wild shape to gain tactical advantage (such as spiders to climb walls or owls to fly into crevices) where I can employ my spells in relative safety.

[Hackulator]

Wasting precious known spells just to potentially screw over one character seems like a huge waste to me... If you are the DM creating NPCs, "metagaming" your NPCs to specifically hurt one character is bad storytelling unless that NPC has a very specific reason to train for that purpose.

I mean, dominate beast can just be a great spell in general depending on the game you are playing.

Also, it's not metagaming unless the NPC does it without having any information on your characters. Most games have some sort of plot arc wherein it is perfectly reasonable for enemies to learn your abilities and adapt to them over time.

[Lombra]

You should envision the game as a cooperative one, not as a competition to who's the best character, unless you are going to do pvp, which is really bad in this edition anyways. Also, planning spells to harm party members is a pretty bad way to choose spells, especially since the sorcerer only knows few spells. Play for fun, the fun won't last longer if avery session is full of player vs player anger or envy. That's what brings playgroups to a breakdown, no game, no fun.

[CrackedChair]

You should envision the game as a cooperative one, not as a competition to who's the best character, unless you are going to do pvp, which is really bad in this edition anyways. Also, planning spells to harm party members is a pretty bad way to choose spells, especially since the sorceter only knows few spells. Play for fun, the fun won't last longer if avery session is full of player vs player anger or envy. That's what brings playgroups to a breakdown, no game, no fun.

I know, I know. I was just thinking: if I was a DM and this Druid was feeling all too high and mighty, I would probably set in some sort of condition that limits him. I play for fun too! I mean, that's half the reason I post all those silly roleplaying help threads; to explore just the fun I can cause with the decisions I can make.

[Waterdeep Merch]

I have a player that loves moon druids. Plays them more than any other class. Tends to tank on the front lines.

He does not outshine the rest of my party.

He's pretty crafty with his transformations, too. Saved lives with the giant spider's web ability, turned into an ape to swing across a ravine and attack a group of archers at range, turns into horses sometimes for some Manly Souls Combining Action. Once summoned a bunch of constrictor snakes, then turned into one, in order to confuse and evade an enemy hunting for him.

My barbarians, fighters, paladins, and even a ranger out-damage him regularly.

The barbarians and paladins typically out-tank him.

The bards, clerics, and a land druid have all out-supported him.

The bards, warlock, and wizards all out-utility him.

And these are just from players I've seen in the games I've DMed for him. He was never not helpful and his ability to fill role gaps is fantastic, but from what I've seen he's never been what one could consider overpowered.

[Sir cryosin]

I know, I know. I was just thinking: if I was a DM and this Druid was feeling all too high and mighty, I would probably set in some sort of condition that limits him. I play for fun too! I mean, that's half the reason I post all those silly roleplaying help threads; to explore just the fun I can cause with the decisions I can make.

God please don't be a DM. Not with the mind set you have now. You are talking spells just to mess with a PC. If he get what you think is to high and mighty.

[Citan]

It was threads like this that convinced one my players to play a Mood druid in a Lost Mines game I was running. Poor fool, thought he'd be this beast of a bear and tear into everything... he scared all the goblins in the first cave encounter and they peppered him with arrows at distance. When he did get one in range to swipe at, he missed...

He dropped the game shortly thereafter, griping about being misled on the internets. I tried warning him, but he was so convinced because people went on about how OP moonies are...

Without some serious modification or multiclassing, beast forms are too squishy to tank, well, anything. Sure, you have an extra layer of decent HP for 2nd level, but if you're going in thinking you're replacing a barbarian tank or a heavy armor fighter, and act like it - you're going to do very poorly.
Huhuhu that's so true...
I had a similar experience with one of my NPC, was supposed to teach a lesson to one of my player by Wild Shaping into a bear. The poor lad had back luck on his turn, whereas my player (Monk1/DeathCleric1) made a near-max roll on a Ray of Sickness. On next turn Druid managed to land one hit, so not enough to really threaten my player, who then succeeded his round of attacks, thus putting the Druid out of his (last) Shape.

Truthfully, I did not make the best choices as a DM: one problem of making things on the fly when you are not very experienced with a class, I had many spell options that could in fact have worked better. And when I first succeeded on Hold Person, I should have just knocked him out straight instead of trying to reason him until he broke the effect.
Also, Luck Goddess was favoring the player when attacks were involved on both sides...

Still, I could witness first-hand that bear is actually a very sad choice to tank because the AC is far too low (my player is not optimized at all). Looking back and after a double-check into CR 1 max beasts, there were far better choices available (barring Octopus because it would feel like cheese to me while incity) like a Dire Wolf (much better AC, good HP), Giant Hyena (good HP, great move), Giant Spider (good AC, Web) or even Swarm of Insects (technically should work by RAW for a lvl 2 Moon Druid unless I missed something): bad AC and HP but damage resistance...

In short, I agree completely with you: by itself a Moon Druid cannot tank at 2nd level. Now with some other resources or proper teamwork, I'm sure it can handle himself well enough. ;)

[nickl_2000]

... or even Swarm of Insects (technically should work by RAW for a lvl 2 Moon Druid unless I missed something): bad AC and HP but damage resistance...


Nope Swarm does not work for wild shape. A wild shape lets you change into 1 animal only, not multiple. I believe their is a JC tweet about it if you want me to try and dig it up.

[Citan]

Nope Swarm does not work for wild shape. A wild shape lets you change into 1 animal only, not multiple. I believe their is a JC tweet about it if you want me to try and dig it up.
No problem I believe you.
Ah well, this will be a houserule of mine then (I don't see any valid reason balance-wise to forbid it to me or my players, but maybe I'm wrong though). XD

[Tetrasodium]

So it's a power player or munchkin's go-to class, essentially.

It really does make me wonder if any DM put in some ways to screw these players over, but putting in enemies with weapons especially effective against beast or even better, druids themselves, or imposed some sort of restriction on shapechanging like enemies with Moonbeam.

as others have said, not at all. Moon druid can do a lot of things pretty well, but they can pretty much only do one at a time. the things they can do don't compare to how a specialist does ie others have pointed out how others (outdamage/outtank/etc the moon druid regularly). But most of those specialists lack the flexibility that the moon druid has to fill the gap of need at the moment. Moon druid also has some serious weaknesses (ie low ac in beast form, no extra attack progression unless a beast has it,etc). They can absorb truly breathtaking amounts of damage yes, but they do that by constantly burning spell slots that they need a long rest to recover & those spell slits are needed to fulfill any other niche of need that they can plug.


But that means I can use Dominate Beast? Right?

Yes. along with other spells that target beasts/animals/etc like animal messenger (it's size dependent though), animal friendship & beast bond fails due to the int4, theoretically Awaken, beast sense, dominate beast (the wis save already covered limits that though), locate plants or animals (how many wolf spiders do you think are hiding out in town looking for your npc that just got away?), theoretically find steed, & probably more. But at the same time spells like crown of madness that target a humanoid specifically fail when the druid is wildshaped because they are no longer a humanoid. the fighter/barbarian/paladin/etc might not be too worried about 5-6 goblins joining the fray with a couple big guys already out, but those goblins could very well be more dangerous to the moon druid than the big nasty war troll in plate armor with a great axe it was laughing a before making worried noises across the table & hoping someone will go tie them up or burn them down quick; there is no reason to pull out one of the few spells that only effect beasts because a moon druid's strength is to synergize(ugh) with the group.

What you will sometimes see is GM's that don't push the moon druid and/or avoid situations that are capable of ensuring someone else's strength is spotlit.
There is a guide in my sig that goes into detail on a lot of the moon druid strengths & how different things (feats/spells/etc) worj with them in new & interesting/useful ways



Nope Swarm does not work for wild shape. A wild shape lets you change into 1 animal only, not multiple. I believe their is a JC tweet about it if you want me to try and dig it up.

I agree that he has, I can't be bothered to find it though & think that coming from me should be pretty confirming :D I also agree with it.

Something I suspect being missed by the "I do/would" allow it folks is the fact that swarms tend to have multiple resistances, immunities, and sometimes downright broken SLA's(ie swarm of cranium rats) if given to a player.

[Lombra]

I know, I know. I was just thinking: if I was a DM and this Druid was feeling all too high and mighty, I would probably set in some sort of condition that limits him. I play for fun too! I mean, that's half the reason I post all those silly roleplaying help threads; to explore just the fun I can cause with the decisions I can make.

It was just a friendly reminder that every DM should follow, there's nothong wrong in playing with the PC's weaknesses sometimes after all, in the right dose it makes the game better for everyone :smile:

[nickl_2000]

No problem I believe you.
Ah well, this will be a houserule of mine then (I don't see any valid reason balance-wise to forbid it to me or my players, but maybe I'm wrong though). XD

By all means do a houserule to allow it. RAF could certainly make for an interesting character as a swarm of something

[Sigreid]

My observation with druid is that people tend to only play half their class. Land druids tend to ignore the advantages of their wild shape ability and Moon druids frequently forget their spell casters. It's pretty funny.

[Tetrasodium]

My observation with druid is that people tend to only play half their class. Land druids tend to ignore the advantages of their wild shape ability and Moon druids frequently forget their spell casters. It's pretty funny.

Moon can't cast in wildshape & dropping it to cady is often sub optimal, but I'll agree that druid players often forget to consider their full toolset

[Sigreid]

Moon can't cast in wildshape & dropping it to cady is often sub optimal, but I'll agree that druid players often forget to consider their full toolset

Yes, that is what I meant. It's like they have an excellent screwdriver and forget that they also have a hammer. Druids have an exceptionally wide range of tools and no tool is perfect for all jobs.

[Finback]

It was threads like this that convinced one my players to play a Mood druid

Mood Druid beast forms include the emo emu, the crankylosaurus, the saddax, and the cheertah.

[Findulidas]

My observation with druid is that people tend to only play half their class. Land druids tend to ignore the advantages of their wild shape ability and Moon druids frequently forget their spell casters. It's pretty funny.

To be fair its hard to both focus in the beast forms and also the spells at the same time when you just start out with a new character. The beast form in particular. You have to read about it and keep track of the interesting options and when to use them for it to be good.

[mephnick]

Honestly other than the free hp Moon Druid is underwhelming. It's easily the most overrated thing in 5e beside the Bear totem. I'll take Land 99/100 times.

[Tetrasodium]

To be fair its hard to both focus in the beast forms and also the spells at the same time when you just start out with a new character. The beast form in particular. You have to read about it and keep track of the interesting options and when to use them for it to be good.

The beast forms are all pretty simple. You just need to make a PDF/word doc & take it to a staples/office depot type thing with all your possible forms to get it spiral bound & can then just write all over it or make a simplified sheet for each of your forms. The biggest difficulty is when people start trying to juggle books

[DragonBaneDM]

So I'm gonna chime in on the pretty sensible note that you shouldn't worry about Moon Druids too much.

I've played one! They're fun! And the amount of HP you have and the amount of damage you can do with bear form is REALLY good...at level 2.

The second you hit 3rd level, other classes will start to take off a bit more, mainly because that big beast has an AC of 11 or so. The Moon Druid stays at that power level for a long, long time. Heck, I MC'd Paladin on mine to make a cool, Warden-feeling class who could lay one some dino-smites!

You don't need to worry about the Druid feeling "high and mighty" and frankly the adversarial tone you're taking towards a hypothetical Druid player worries me. It's a fun subclass with a good feature! If you're worried now, wait until you read about Warlock 2 dips.

Anyway, it's good that you know some tricks now to use against a higher level Moon Druid like Dominate Beast and insta-kill stuff. But I wouldn't go into a game seeing the Moon Druid as a minmaxer or anything like that. They'll be the strongest melee combatant at the table for a few sessions, then the Paladin's AC or the Warlock's extra blast will balance things out, I promise. And heck, if you're running a story where skills like Persuasion and Arcana take a strong role and yield rewards, the fact that the druid is good at hitting things up close doesn't need to be something that splits your game wide open.

I encourage you to use these new tools for building an interesting and balanced story instead of seeing this thread as justification for "I *knew* druids were all jerks! Time to get them!".

[CrackedChair]

So I'm gonna chime in on the pretty sensible note that you shouldn't worry about Moon Druids too much.

I've played one! They're fun! And the amount of HP you have and the amount of damage you can do with bear form is REALLY good...at level 2.

The second you hit 3rd level, other classes will start to take off a bit more, mainly because that big beast has an AC of 11 or so. The Moon Druid stays at that power level for a long, long time. Heck, I MC'd Paladin on mine to make a cool, Warden-feeling class who could lay one some dino-smites!

You don't need to worry about the Druid feeling "high and mighty" and frankly the adversarial tone you're taking towards a hypothetical Druid player worries me. It's a fun subclass with a good feature! If you're worried now, wait until you read about Warlock 2 dips.

Anyway, it's good that you know some tricks now to use against a higher level Moon Druid like Dominate Beast and insta-kill stuff. But I wouldn't go into a game seeing the Moon Druid as a minmaxer or anything like that. They'll be the strongest melee combatant at the table for a few sessions, then the Paladin's AC or the Warlock's extra blast will balance things out, I promise. And heck, if you're running a story where skills like Persuasion and Arcana take a strong role and yield rewards, the fact that the druid is good at hitting things up close doesn't need to be something that splits your game wide open.

I encourage you to use these new tools for building an interesting and balanced story instead of seeing this thread as justification for "I *knew* druids were all jerks! Time to get them!".

Understood! Thanks for the tips!

[Beelzebubba]

Yes, that is what I meant. It's like they have an excellent screwdriver and forget that they also have a hammer. Druids have an exceptionally wide range of tools and no tool is perfect for all jobs.

I'm playing a Land Druid now and it kind of pisses off the Rogue player.

"I turn into a wolf, which has advantage Perception on hearing and smell, and start using my Survival skill to scout ahead and track the Cleric."

"You cast all kinds of spells, have all your Elf ****, and can turn into animals too?"

"Well, yeah, but I can't fly until 8th level."

:smallfurious:

:smallamused:

He forgets that it's risky. All the animal forms that have great 'hide in plain sight' stealth are incredibly vulnerable, so scouting that way becomes a gamble. At some point, detection becomes cheap enough or constantly 'on', so there's a point where it's best to just blow the spell slot for Pass Without Trace. And I don't have *that* many of those yet.

[Sigreid]

I'm playing a Land Druid now and it kind of pisses off the Rogue player.

"I turn into a wolf, which has advantage Perception on hearing and smell, and start using my Survival skill to scout ahead and track the Cleric."

"You cast all kinds of spells, have all your Elf ****, and can turn into animals too?"

"Well, yeah, but I can't fly until 8th level."

:smallfurious:

:smallamused:

He forgets that it's risky. All the animal forms that have great 'hide in plain sight' stealth are incredibly vulnerable, so scouting that way becomes a gamble. At some point, detection becomes cheap enough or constantly 'on', so there's a point where it's best to just blow the spell slot for Pass Without Trace. And I don't have *that* many of those yet.

When you can do birds, a flock of pigeons in any city will make you basically invisible.

[Findulidas]

I'll take Land 99/100 times.

Im the same. I like full casters so could be why.