AoO's against defenseless targets?

[Eladrinblade]

This doesn't belong in the Q&A because it's not a real question, as in, I know the official answer, but why is it that a guy with 20 dex and combat reflexes can make 6 attacks in a round (regular attack + 5 AoO's) if provoked 5 times, but he can only hit a wall once?

[Waker]

What do you mean by "hit a wall once"? Like making an attack against an inanimate object?

[Psyren]

He means why can most folks make more attacks in one round from AoOs (assuming Combat Reflexes of course) than they can from BAB.

You can also ask the reverse - why can the guy with ITWF and Haste make 4 attacks before BAB but only one AoO if he doesn't have Combat Reflexes?

The simple answer is that combat is an abstraction, which is fancy way of saying it doesn't make sense.

[Necroticplague]

Probably for the same reason it's possible for a creature to be able to lash out with 10 attacks on it's own turn, then only be able to swing at one person who leaves an opening. Combat is abstract, not a simulation. If I wanted combat that was simulationist, I'd play Riddle of Steal.

[Waker]

He means why can most folks make more attacks in one round from AoOs (assuming Combat Reflexes of course) than they can from BAB.

You can also ask the reverse - why can the guy with ITWF and Haste make 4 attacks before BAB but only one AoO if he doesn't have Combat Reflexes?

The simple answer is that combat is an abstraction, which is fancy way of saying it doesn't make sense.

I figured that was what he was asking. The simplest explanation is that a Wizard (of the coast) did it.

[OldTrees1]

If I wanted to made a compelling explanation for verisimilitude it would be the following (although some mechanical alterations would fit better).

The Fighter 11 with 20 Dex + Combat Reflexes has 3 active and 6 reactive attacks per round.
The Fighter 11 with 20 Dex + ITWF has 5 active and 1 reactive attacks per round.

My explanation would be that the two Fighters were trained in different resting stances and disciplines.

The first is fighting reactively, their stance is designed to capitalize on openings rather than designed to create openings. Attempting to create an opening from this stance is less optimal (slower, less likely, weaker), but they can rapidly capitalize when an opening appears.
The second is fighting proactively, their stance is designed to retain momentum and create openings rather than designed to be ready to capitalize on an unexpected opening. The rapid and smooth transition from one attempt to the next increases the number of openings they can force, but this comes at the cost of the weapon being out of the ready position more often and thus not able to react as quickly to an unexpected opening.


Of course a target that is literally defenseless (practice dummy) would fall quickly by either approach. So perhaps rule that practice dummies are constantly provoking?

[Eladrinblade]

So perhaps rule that practice dummies are constantly provoking?

Pretty much what I was thinking, except it would apply to any "helpless" target.

[SirNibbles]

Pretty much what I was thinking, except it would apply to any "helpless" target.

It makes sense from a logic perspective, but it would be game-breaking, especially with Improved Combat Reflexes [Epic].

If you can make an opponent helpless for a single round, you get infinite AoOs against them. That's a bit overpowered.

Perhaps the event of becoming helpless could provoke.

[OldTrees1]

It makes sense from a logic perspective, but it would be game-breaking, especially with Improved Combat Reflexes [Epic].

If you can make an opponent helpless for a single round, you get infinite AoOs against them. That's a bit overpowered.

Perhaps the event of becoming helpless could provoke.

Wait, are you saying it is OP for a 21st level Fighter to be able to deal infinite attacks against a foe that just failed a save vs their (presumably 21st level) ally's spell? Generally at 21st level a failed save is a death sentence so I don't see the change.

So let's discard Improved Combat Reflexes and examine Combat Reflexes and non epic Save-vs-helpless spells.

Sleep (commonly consider save or Die) is online at Wizard 1. You can expect 3 AoOs per round at that level.
Hold Person (grants a save per turn otherwise it would be a save or Die) is online at Cleric 3 or Wizard 5. You can expect 3-4 or 4-5 AoOs per round at those levels.

Of those 2 spells, only Hold Person is really affected. Since that spell was buffed by this houserule, why not just increase its spell level to 4th-5th?