Non-Human Hathran (actually, Monstrous)

[schreier]

I really like coming up with complex, interesting (to me at least) NPCs. One I was thinking was of a Song Dragon Hathran. Obviously, this is not easy, as Hathran requires Ethran - a feat with "human" as a prereq.

I considered taking a level of Shaper of Form, to change type - but I have no idea what that would do to a dragon ... then I came across the Savage Species rituals - either unlearning or vitality.

Since Dragon's have "innate" casting levels - that obviously confuses the situation even farther ...

Let's say that the character was an Archivist level 1 ... did the ritual to become a Song Dragon ...

A wyrmling is +5 LA with 5HD, so ECL 10

So the Archivist could be Archivist 1/Wizard 9 - then the ritual is complete, and the character becomes a Wyrmling Song Dragon with 1 level in Archivist and 5 Racial HD? Do stats (Str, Dex, etc...) become set as appropriate for the dragon level? What about feats and skills?

What if you add templates to the target creature (Arch-Dragon for example), or if you target an older dragon (Juvenille, which casts as a level 1 sorcerer). Do you just recalculate the effective ECL (Racial HD + LA)?

Or are there no answers, and just do whatever?

The reason to go through this is to take the Ethran feat, a human only feat required for Hathran. If the human takes the feat at level 1, then later changes - does she keep the feat? Does it still work if the character is no longer human? Whether it works or no, is that enough to become a Hathran (which does not require Human, just sufficient regional knowledge in Rashamen I believe)
Thanks in advance for the horribly convoluted question

schreier

[TristanS]

I would avoid the ritual personally ... so many unanswered questions (almost unanswerable)

The easiest answer I would think is somehow avoid the "human" only part of the Ethran feat - maybe a quest? Provide some kind of ring of djinn summoning to grant a wish for the feat? Have them make disguise rolls to appear as human?

[schreier]

I'm sure you're right about the easier path ... this is more me trying to understand the two rituals, how they work in general, and then specifically if applied to a dragon.

I know it's a relatively small passage in a 3.0 book, so is unlikely to have a clear answer - but it doesn't hurt to try.

My best guess is that any sacrificed levels would also lose their feats/skills/etc and would be recreated as the creature of that ECL (i.e. all evidence of those levels lost) ... as far as stats, I really don't know. I would think it's like creating a level 1 guy again, so you would take their attributes? Or maybe their physical attributes but keep your mental (kinda like Polymorph)?

[Inevitability]

Get Human Heritage as a bonus feat somehow (allowing you to ignore the prerequisites). It makes your dragon count as a human for the purpose of qualifications.

Alternatively, say that in your game the FRCS version of Ethran (originally intended to be the prerequisite for Hathran) is used rather than the PGTF one, or that both can be taken and both fulfill the prerequisites.

[DrMotives]

I normally hate Human Heritage mentions here, because there's a lot of ridiculous cheese with by people selectively ignoring half the feat text to break rules, but here it makes sense. Especially as Song Dragons are one of those weird single-gender only species that are sometimes fluffed as reproducing with humans, as their own race lacks the opposite gender to ensure they can "breed true".

[schreier]

The human heritage feat should be a "human" descended race, right? I can see making an argument that a song dragon in the past - maybe a dragon and a half-dragon bred - making a dragon with a half-dragon template on it maybe?

I saw that solution here:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?248711-What-Happens-When-Different-Coloured-Dragons-Mate

It looks like there is some disagreement - Races of the dragon (pg 72) says "Since the half-dragon template can apply to any living creature type other than dragons"

While, in an article, WOTC said "The concept of a half-dragon-dragon is submitted quite a bit via Ask Wizards. So in a recent Valentine's Week Sage Advice, we addressed this very question of legality. The Sage said yeah: half-dragon-dragons are in, albeit rare.
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20070401a

Based on reading here:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-99642.html

which references half-elf with elf (from Races of Destiny) - the majority breeds true ... so conceivable a Song Dragon bred with a half-dragon (Silver) would be a Song Dragon with a half-dragon template applied that could take Human Heritage?

Edit: the reason i picked half-silver was to "keep" the half dragon side... I think that, if it was a song dragon and a half song dragon... the offspring is straight song dragon

[TristanS]

Alternatively you could have a song dragon and half song dragon mate .... then you have the human heritage without having to worry about the half-dragon template. I guess it depends on whether or not you want it.

Either way, you should be able to take the feat. Part of the feat says "If you are not a humanoid, your type changes to humanoid and you gain the human subtype"

I wonder what happens to true dragon whose type is changed to humanoid? Does that change the hit dice, skills, etc to that of a humanoid? If so, that's a huge hit to the character's power ....

[schreier]

I wonder what happens to true dragon whose type is changed to humanoid? Does that change the hit dice, skills, etc to that of a humanoid? If so, that's a huge hit to the character's power ....


That's a good question ... I wonder also if that is something that would be retroactive? For example, say you took either Master Harper or Loremaster levels which allowed you to take "Human Heritage" but were a Dragon (in this case), or really any monstrous PC with racial HD ... are those retroactively changed to humanoid?

The same question would come up if you took Wild Soul / Swanmay (change type to fey) or divine agent / contemplative, or really any prestige class that changes type.

I found several posts on other forums saying you get the features, but don't change the "traits" which come from the Race? Not sure if that would be true in this case, with Dragons and racial hit dice, etc ...

Dragons have:
Dragon Type
A dragon is a reptilelike creature, usually winged, with magical or unusual abilities.

Features
A dragon has the following features.


Features
12-sided Hit Dice.
Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter).
Good Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves.
Skill points equal to (6 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die.

Traits
Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision.
Immunity to magic sleep effects and paralysis effects.
Proficient with its natural weapons only unless humanoid in form (or capable of assuming humanoid form), in which case proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with no armor.
Dragons eat, sleep, and breathe.


While a Humanoid has:

Features
A humanoid has the following features (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
8-sided Hit Dice, or by character class.
Base attack bonus equal to ¾ total Hit Dice (as cleric).
Good Reflex saves (usually; a humanoid’s good save varies).
Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die, or by character class.

Traits
A humanoid possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
Proficient with all simple weapons, or by character class.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, or by character class. If a humanoid does not have a class and wears armor, it is proficient with that type of armor and all lighter types. Humanoids not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Humanoids are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
Humanoids breathe, eat, and sleep.

So ... would changing from Dragon to Humanoid change their Racial Hit Dice from d12 to d8? What if the change is made later (through prestige class or feat)? Same with saves, BAB, skill points, etc ...

[DrMotives]

You can't take Human Heritage later, it's a 1st level only feat. People ignore that one frequently on this board though.

[schreier]

I know that is the case - but Loremaster and Master Harper both allow feats normally only available at level 1 to be taken - at least that's my understanding.

Loremaster says: "Any one feat" and Master Harper says: "When choosing a bonus feat, the master Harper can choose any general feat; if she chooses a regional feat, she must meet the feat's regional requirement."

I know Loremaster is generally interpreted as allowing 1st level or other feats later ... and Master Harper specifically includes regional feats, which are first level only in general.

[DrMotives]

Hmm... The Harper takes any general feat, or a regional feat to which they meet requirements. Human Heritage is neither a general nor a regional feat, it's tagged as a racial feat instead. A Harper's bonus feat also won't be able to take item creation, metemagic, or a variety of other feat tags with their class bonus. And while Loremaster doesn't specifically say you must meet the normal requirements for a feat you select, I think it'd be a mistake to allow a Loremaster to skip feat prerequisites just because it's absent from the Loremaster text, there's nothing to suggest you can ignore feat rules in selecting it.

[schreier]

I can see that view point. Even with that though, there are still unanswered questions:

If you racial HD ... is 1st level the racial HD, or the first class levels.

As far as changing type though, that question comes up regardless because of prestige classes that change you to fey or outsider

There is also the question about what changes for a dragon even if you take it at the first hit die... hp and skills?

[schreier]

Also - just found another point that would justify allowing Master Harper to take the Human Heritage feat ... on page 150 of Races of Destiny, when discussing Racial feats, it says:

"Feats marked with the [Racial] tag require the character to be of a specific race in order to select the feat. These feats share no other special properties and are considered to be a subset of a larger category of feats (in this book, all racial feats are general feats)."

So Human Heritage is actually a general feat. It is even listed in the General Feats category in the table on page 151.