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MountainKing
2007-08-03, 02:57 PM
Okay, a question if I may, but first, some background. A DM I've played under for a few years has it in his houserules that Dwarven Defender is a banned class. In a similar, though distant, vein, he has banned a few of the oriental flavored classes from his campaign as well, but those are because they don't fit the setting. Dwarven Defender, however, is listed with asthetic characters (meaning characters who take Vow of Poverty as a feat), which only says one thing to me:

My DM thinks Dwarven Defender is horribly broken.

I've looked through it, and it's certainly a strong class, but I haven't really figured out what makes it broken; so broken, in fact, as to be associated with VoP characters. My question(s) is thus: does anyone else regard Dwarven Defender as a broken class, and if so, can you give me at least a basic explaination as to why?

(To increase thread/topic longevity, once Dwarven Defender is a stale topic, please discuss other classes that you find to be terribly over/underpowered.)

Yuki Akuma
2007-08-03, 03:02 PM
...Wh... what? But.. Vow of Poverty is a weak feat. :smalleek: And... Dwarven Defender isn't that great, either.

Arbitrarity
2007-08-03, 03:04 PM
*Throws up*.

It's a melee class. Better than straight fighter, maybe, but wastes 3 feats, horribly. Therefore, it effectively loses 8 feats compared to straight fighter, and in return, gets 13 hp, +4 AC, +4 will saves, improved uncanny dodge, worthless trap sense, DR 6/-, and a special "rage" like ability, which prevents motion except 5 ft steps.

VoP is generally considered weak, both for the lack of customizability, and the penalties of a lack of magical items in general. Unless your DM runs no/low magic/way below WBL.

JackMage666
2007-08-03, 03:06 PM
Alright, to start Asthetic doesn't mean you've taken the Vow of Poverty feat. Monks are Asthetic, and not all do. It just means you look past material goods, often living without them - They're not necessary, but they can still be helpful.
If I remember correctly, the atypical Dwarven Defender is in Full Plate Mail with a Dwarven Waraxe - Definately not taking the Vow of Poverty feat.

And, do a search for Vow of Poverty, you'll find it REALLY isn't broken, and is actually a bit weak. Works nice for flavor, though.

Rachel Lorelei
2007-08-03, 03:08 PM
Dwarven Defender is in actuality a very weak class. Here's why:

"Oh no, it's a Dwarven Defender. Walk away briskly!"
You stop being able to move when you use Defensive Stance. All your enemy has to do is move away more times than you have stances.

Bassetking
2007-08-03, 03:08 PM
The only reasoning I can see behind this refusal is the presence of D.Defender on several Theo-Op builds.

Its potency, though, relies on unrealistically inflated constitution.

The_Werebear
2007-08-03, 03:09 PM
Dwarven defender is most certainly not broken. No melee class is. Read this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18500) to discover why. It isn't directly related, but will show you how to create truly destructive wizards. Which you can then use to pummel a DM controlled Dwarven Defender of several levels higher.

MountainKing
2007-08-03, 03:09 PM
Odd; my DM and a few other players made VoP out to be a big deal, though the only character class I've ever had success with it is anything involving either stealth or gaining multiple bonuses to AC (monk, for example). I think a lot of the complaint about it has to do with the whole "never has to eat, drink, or breathe" type stuff.

Deepblue706
2007-08-03, 03:10 PM
Well, VoP may be weak, but not to those who still say Toughness is actually a feat. I'm conviced it was actually a practical joke.

Dwarven Defender isn't overpowered. None of the core PrCs really are outstanding. Actually, I don't think I've really considered taking any of those other than Eldritch Knight (because I like Gishes) or Loremaster (because knowledge is power!). Archmage ain't bad. I can imagine Blackguard being fun.

Banning one of those, though...I could never see why, unless there's a class that conflicts with setting, somehow.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-08-03, 03:11 PM
I don't necessarily think that listing the DD as an ascetic class means he thinks it's overpowered. It certainly doesn't fit the given flavor of the class, though -- the DD is stationary and protective, and ascetics tend towards drifting and letting go.

In terms of actual power, the DD is pretty much weak sauce. It requires three separate feats, none of which synergizes with its class features. It's a dwarf that doesn't move, so it has little use for Mobility and Spring Attack, which makes Dodge a pretty questionable feat to take. It's a d12 HD class written for a race with a Con bonus, so Toughness matters even less than it normally does. And it's an entire class built on not moving, so Endurance is largely pointless. (Unless you're going to grab Steadfast Determination from the PHB2, which you might as well at that point.)

Even after paying those ridiculous costs, the payoff isn't that great. Sure, the DD is hard to move, but he's easy as heck to just walk around in most environments. Much like a Gelatinous Cube, it's likely to inspire fear along the type of "Oh no! A Dwarven Defender! Let us walk briskly away!" A lot of people seem to think that warriors get trounced at high levels because they don't hit hard enough. That's not really the issue; the Ubercharger, King of Smack, and so on do this just fine. Ultimately, their ability to move and contain threats is the issue; they simply don't make effective meat shields much of the time because they can't get where they need to be, and need to stand still to do much while they're there. The DD exacerbates these problems, meaning unless you've got something clever up your sleeve (getting a consistent way of enlarging yourself while weilding a spiked chain helps, but even that's only 20 feet of reach; alternatively, Knight levels help some), it often hurts as much as it helps.

Either way, talk to your DM about why he's treating the DD like he is, rather than leaping to the conclusion that he feels it's too much and wants to ban it.

Arbitrarity
2007-08-03, 03:12 PM
But... that's just 2 items, the iridescent ioun stone, and the Clear ioun stone... Oh noes, 22K!

By listing it as an ascetic class, he means it's as broken as VoP. I bet he thinks monks are OP as well.

Iku Rex
2007-08-03, 03:13 PM
Can we please distinguish between aesthetic (http://m-w.com/dictionary/aesthetic) and ascetic (http://m-w.com/dictionary/ascetic). :smalleek:

Yuki Akuma
2007-08-03, 03:13 PM
Why VoP is weak: "Oh no! A roc! Quick, monk, use your item that grants a flight speed that all characters of your level should possess! Wait, you took Vow of Poverty? Well, break out the ranged we- Oh, right, Vow of Poverty. Well, we're screwed."

MountainKing
2007-08-03, 03:13 PM
I don't necessarily think that listing the DD as an ascetic class means he thinks it's overpowered.

I think I might have been unclear, and that's my fault, so let me try that one again. He doesn't consider DD to be asthetic; when he says asthetic, he means characters that have taken VoP. He lists DD in his list of banned classes, which includes any character who takes VoP and the oriental flavored classes.

BCOVertigo
2007-08-03, 03:14 PM
Okay, a question if I may, but first, some background. A DM I've played under for a few years has it in his houserules that Dwarven Defender is a banned class. In a similar, though distant, vein, he has banned a few of the oriental flavored classes from his campaign as well, but those are because they don't fit the setting. Dwarven Defender, however, is listed with asthetic characters (meaning characters who take Vow of Poverty as a feat), which only says one thing to me:

My DM thinks Dwarven Defender is horribly broken.

I've looked through it, and it's certainly a strong class, but I haven't really figured out what makes it broken; so broken, in fact, as to be associated with VoP characters. My question(s) is thus: does anyone else regard Dwarven Defender as a broken class, and if so, can you give me at least a basic explaination as to why?

(To increase thread/topic longevity, once Dwarven Defender is a stale topic, please discuss other classes that you find to be terribly over/underpowered.)

The first issue may be that VoP is on the 'broken' list at all. VoP is meant to entirely replace wealth by level, and assuming the players spend it intelligently, they will gain myriad abilities, protections and bonuses that the stagnant VoP does not match. Looking at it simply, what in the hell does a VoP monk do against a flying opponent? He's useless in that fight unless the wizard takes time and resources to bring him up to par and allow him to contribute in the fight, and then a simple dispel will send him to his death. Incorporeality, ranged combat and any other situation where the character in question must use his resources to contribute, resources that he gave up, present the same problem. All in all the only classes who can truly benefit from VoP are the ones that rarely take it, the casters.

Secondly, I've seen Dwarven defender in some pretty strong massive AC builds but as far as 'zomg gamebreaker' I have no idea what your DM is talking about. The way I look at the class, you essentially sit yourself down and nothing can move you, much like a wall. A wall is only useful when it can block things, such as in a hallway type situation or when you are forcing the enemy to go a certain way. How many situations have you seen where a boss fight was in a hallway small enough to make this tactic overpowering? Maybe I'm totally missing something but as it stands calling the Dwarven Defender broken seems laughable to me.

Edit: Totally got beaten to the punch, that's what I get for leaving the room in mid-rant I guess....:smallfrown:

Arbitrarity
2007-08-03, 03:15 PM
Can we please distinguish between aesthetic (http://m-w.com/dictionary/aesthetic) and ascetic (http://m-w.com/dictionary/ascetic). :smalleek:

I know the feeling.

Why VoP is weak: "Oh no! A roc! Quick, monk, use your item that grants a flight speed that all characters of your level should possess! Wait, you took Vow of Poverty? Well, we're screwed."

Overland flight FTW :smallbiggrin: . Really though, the lack of customizability makes it pretty weak in many ways.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-08-03, 03:16 PM
Can we get something cleared up here? "Asthetic" isn't a word. Do you mean "aesthetic (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/aesthetic)" or "ascetic (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ascetic)?"

Edit: A-whoops. This thread is moving pretty quickly.

Rachel Lorelei
2007-08-03, 03:17 PM
I know the feeling.


Overland flight FTW :smallbiggrin: . Really though, the lack of customizability makes it pretty weak in many ways.

Overland Flight is a Personal spell...

Ulzgoroth
2007-08-03, 03:17 PM
Odd; my DM and a few other players made VoP out to be a big deal, though the only character class I've ever had success with it is anything involving either stealth or gaining multiple bonuses to AC (monk, for example). I think a lot of the complaint about it has to do with the whole "never has to eat, drink, or breathe" type stuff.
...it's a rare situation indeed when the ability to survive without food or water is critical. The ability to go without air is more interesting, but you don't get that until level 12, and there's a nice little 9k necklace in the DMG which guarantees you never have trouble with air supplies again.

bosssmiley
2007-08-03, 03:18 PM
Maybe your GM had a bad experience with a speedbump Dwarven Defender character in an old game Mountain King (yep, a dwarvish screen name if ever I saw one). Wanna really make him cry? Ask to use ToB and take the uber-DD prestige class from that instead (Cuboid Guardian or whatever it's called...oh, Deepstone Sentinel).

"I make ze floor to keeeeel you!" :smallbiggrin:

As for Vow of Poverty. It's magic (for monks and other ascetics) that can't be disjoined or dispelled without cheese on the DM's part. It's not an uber option (outside some filthy, dirty, exploited builds - search the WOTC CharOp boards), but can seem like a "ZOMG free bonuses!" feat to someone who doesn't bother to take the accompanying role-playing 'fluff' seriously. :smallconfused:

Arbitrarity
2007-08-03, 03:18 PM
Overland Flight is a Personal spell...

Curses. My memory is getting awful :smalleek: . And to think I have most PHB mechanics memorized :smallfrown:

Ok, phantom steed FTW :smalltongue:

MountainKing
2007-08-03, 03:19 PM
Can we get something cleared up here? "Asthetic" isn't a word. Do you mean "aesthetic (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/aesthetic)" or "ascetic (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ascetic)?"

Edit: A-whoops. This thread is moving pretty quickly.

You know, I have actually confused the two. I have intended ascetic the entire time. *fails and defenestrates self*

Yuki Akuma
2007-08-03, 03:22 PM
You know, I have actually confused the two. I have intended ascetic the entire time. *fails and defenestrates self*

Throwing yourself out of a window, eh?

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-03, 03:24 PM
Well, VoP may be weak, but not to those who still say Toughness is actually a feat. I'm conviced it was actually a practical joke.




Toughness was probably made to bump up wizards at level 1 with their D4. Throw in a Toad familiar and a con of 14 and you have a 12 Hit Point wizard at level 1 who can take a hit and possibly two.

Falrin
2007-08-03, 03:53 PM
The main probelem with the Dwarven Defender is it's complete lack of mobility, and this when Mobility (and flexibility) is concidered the most powerfull asset of any class (hence the weak "I can hit things hard, if they're not fast, nor flying, nor blinking, nor (insert anything except standing next to him)"-Fighter)

Point your DM to this thread, to any spellcaster build, to TLN's guide, to the Optimization Board, to any forum where they know a litlle about D&D.

So lets take a look.


1) You'll want a Reach weapon, Probably Quick draw.

2) Prereq. :

Dodge (How the Hell did that got there?) Endurance (High AC build can sleep in light armour, hooray!!) Thougness (I get this, but I don't get the feat)

If I was your DM (you might ask your, h'll probably say no because he thinks DD are overpowered) you could get these Prereq.

-Heavy Armour Optimization (I mean, Dodge? They'll ask mobility next?)
-Endurance (You'll want this later)
-Improved thougness (Still not so good, but a lot better than crappy Thougness)

3) The build:

Ranger 3/Fighter 2/Deepwarden 2/Dwarven Defender # seems solid.

Ranger: Grab Skills, Endurance, Good Saves (fort & reflex), Full BaB.
You'll waste Combat style since you'll be in Heavy Armour & d8 HD.

Fighter: Get the feats: Improved Thougness & heavy armour optimization (or dodge & thougness)

Via Ranger's skills you get this beauty in: Gain Con to AC, D12 HD & +3 Good Saves (will & fort)

Now you're ready for Dwarven Defender.

feats You'll want:
-Power attack (a No-brainer)
-Combat Reflexes (If you can spare the dex)
-Steadfast Determination (Con to Willsave = Nice)
-Combat Expertise (AC & needed for)
-Improved trip (Reach, Trip, Combat Reflexes is the way to keep enemies near yourself)
-Improved Combat Expertise

Guidelines: Get Con as high as possible: Dwarf & Defensive Stance is a good start. You'll get it to Will save, Fortitude Save, AC, HP & Defensive Stance Time.
Get yourself a big bow. Shoot thing out of range, quick draw your Reach weapon before the end of your turn to get the AoO going.


4) The DM

First try to convince him of the weakness of melee.
Then take a look at his adventures:
Small Dungeons & Mindless Enemies is good
Out in the open & returning, smart villans are bad.

Also point out that Joe The Thug probably never has heard of Dwarven Defenders or there inmobility-problem.

Generic PC
2007-08-03, 03:56 PM
this topic has been pretty much filled out, but i would point out that DD is weak because it is very situational (did i spell that right?:smallamused: ). A dwarven Defender in a small dwarf sized passage? very good (i think...?) in most other situations? terrible. That is why Wizards are strong. in a small passage, maybe 5ft wide, quite long, he could use many spells (lightning bolt may work well here...) to stop enemies. a forcecage could work too, for a higher level wizard. in a larger room? A direct Damage could be fireball, a save or lose could be cloudkill, grease, etc. Variety is the spice of life, as it were.

MountainKing
2007-08-03, 04:07 PM
Throwing yourself out of a window, eh?

It seemed like a good solution at the time. :smallfrown:

As for DD, like I said, I couldn't see why it would be thought broken, especially if kept to core 3.5 (no splatbooks, eek!). As Falrin keenly demonstrated, you *can* break a DD build, albeit using four classes total, which I don't think the DD was intended for.

What other "broken" classes can you guys think of?

Arbitrarity
2007-08-03, 04:13 PM
Base, or PRC? Or both?

Artificer (madness! Early spell gaining, mostly), Archivist (all divine spells. Codex Creep with domains = all spells), Cleric (Czilla), Wizard(<-is batman), Druid(Dzilla).

Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil (defense! Defense!), Incantatrix(Persistant foresight, shapechange, and everything else), Planar Shepard (Look at the Far Realms time rate. Also, check out wildshaping into outsiders).

Falrin
2007-08-03, 04:23 PM
I merely pointed out how to get a decent, non-moving tank. You wont deal much damage, you'll stand there and take it (what the PrC is designed for). The Deepwarden in it might be a bit much, but when your spot gets greased (1ste LvL spell) you'll not be liking it.

The main catch is the non-moving part. With that kind of limited build you'll be in trouble when encountering:

Ranged enemies
Spellcasters
An Open Field
A mobility character (tumble)
When enemies can and will go for the squishie caster (goad might do the trick, but your Cha will be to low)
When the enemy knows you. (Provoke the stance, fall back)
When the enemy is a grappler.
When the enemy flies.
When the enemy has 15 or more Ft reach. (Yup, that would suck)

As you look at it that way (and you should) the Dwarven Defender is only good to defend (hehe) a hallway of max 25 Feet wide and 15 high. And then only if the enemy is another melee character that doesn't know you.

In the end he's just to specialized. Get 2 Buffed rows of 5 DD with Reach & Trip and a battery of archers/caster to back them up and nobody will enter. Get 2 Buffed rows of 5 DD with Reach & Trip to defend a caravan, attack a goblin camp, hunt some harpies, infiltrate the Thieves Guilded and they'll fail.

Arbitrarity
2007-08-03, 04:27 PM
*Prefers liberal use of expansion and spiked chain (or equivalent), in conjunction with Thicket of blades, defensive rebuke, defensive sweep, robilar's gambit, karmic strike, stand still, hold the line, combat reflexes (major!), and maybe stormguard warrior*

It's a big wall, with 30 ft of reach within which you don't want to move. Covers 75 ft wide halls, 45 ft high.

Rockphed
2007-08-03, 05:14 PM
Returning throwing-Axes.

lord_khaine
2007-08-03, 05:27 PM
that still dont chance that a DD build for melee combat will suck even more in ranget combat.

Beleriphon
2007-08-03, 07:03 PM
I hate to say it, but if you're set on a DD then taking levels of cleric for the buff spells, like say enlarge person, isn't a bad deal.

MountainKing
2007-08-03, 09:55 PM
Artificer (madness! Early spell gaining, mostly), Archivist (all divine spells. Codex Creep with domains = all spells), Cleric (Czilla), Wizard(<-is batman), Druid(Dzilla).

Of all of those, I disagree with Archivist the most, as it's just a divine wizard, but then, you listed wizard as overpowered as well, which I also disagree with. I have a pretty poor survival rate with wizards, and for two good reasons. One, they aren't really meant to be in combat and two, my party is typically busy being "awesome" and not protecting the wizard.

Now what's REALLY broken is archivist/wizard/mystic theurge, one of my favorite builds :smallamused:

Arbitrarity
2007-08-03, 09:58 PM
Of all of those, I disagree with Archivist the most, as it's just a divine wizard, but then, you listed wizard as overpowered as well, which I also disagree with. I have a pretty poor survival rate with wizards, and for two good reasons. One, they aren't really meant to be in combat and two, my party is typically busy being "awesome" and not protecting the wizard.

Now what's REALLY broken is archivist/wizard/mystic theurge, one of my favorite builds :smallamused:

Nooo. It's an MT. The only way it's broken is if it's an illumian fast progression build, and then it still has a pain getting really high level spells, unless you can find a way to quickly qualify for arcane heirophant, or find another dual progression class.

EDIT: Clearly, you don't play great wizards, or have terrible luck. See TLN guide, posted earlier in the thread. I've seen a wizard take down a CR 7 encounter at ECL 6 with one 3rd level spell.

Bassetking
2007-08-03, 10:15 PM
Of all of those, I disagree with Archivist the most, as it's just a divine wizard, but then, you listed wizard as overpowered as well, which I also disagree with. I have a pretty poor survival rate with wizards, and for two good reasons. One, they aren't really meant to be in combat and two, my party is typically busy being "awesome" and not protecting the wizard.

Now what's REALLY broken is archivist/wizard/mystic theurge, one of my favorite builds :smallamused:

The Archivist is broken because he can learn "Any" Divine Spell. This includes any Domain spell scribed as a scroll.

So, he gets Force Cage. He gets Magic Missle, he gets Dragon Ally. He gets Vortex of Teeth. He gets Wish. He gets Mage Armor. He gets Wall of Iron and Plague of Rats. He gets Gate, Time Stop, Greater Anyspell, and Disjunction.

He can prepare any 5th level Arcane spell as a 6th level slot.

He's got Cloudkill.

He's a Divine caster that can pull off the Greater Celerity + Time Stop + Cloudkill+ Forcecage Combo.

That's just a tiny part of why the Archivist is broken.

Arbitrarity
2007-08-03, 10:17 PM
I said that :smallbiggrin:

"Codex creep" implied domain creep as well, which implies stuff like fate domain, etc.

Oh, and funny for clerics: Divine persistant metacheesed "Choose fate"

EDIT: Excellent point. Sorry :smallwink:

Nice illustration.

Bassetking
2007-08-03, 10:21 PM
I said that :smallbiggrin:

"Codex creep" implied domain creep as well, which implies stuff like fate domain, etc.

Oh, and funny for clerics: Divine persistant metacheesed "Choose fate"

Yes sir, 'ya said it. I just was helping illustrate it for Mr. Mountain.

namo
2007-08-03, 10:30 PM
Greater Anyspell requires a domain slot. Also, what domain allows him to learn Greater Celerity ? Or even Celerity for that matter. (Technically, the latter is possible using the Divine Bard UA variant, but let's face it, nobody would allow it...)

Bassetking
2007-08-03, 10:47 PM
Greater Anyspell requires a domain slot. Also, what domain allows him to learn Greater Celerity ? Or even Celerity for that matter. (Technically, the latter is possible using the Divine Bard UA variant, but let's face it, nobody would allow it...)

Greater Anyspell can be scribed as a Divine scroll.

Archivist reads Divine Scroll.

Archivist learns a Divine "Greater Anyspell".

EDIT: I'm sorry, it would have to be just "Celerity" as Greater is an 8th, and Celerity is a 4th, allowing it to be emulated by G. Anyspell.

Fax Celestis
2007-08-03, 11:17 PM
Greater Anyspell requires a domain slot. Also, what domain allows him to learn Greater Celerity ? Or even Celerity for that matter. (Technically, the latter is possible using the Divine Bard UA variant, but let's face it, nobody would allow it...)

The only reason it requires a domain slot is because that's the only way to get it on your spell list without being an Archivist who reads a scroll of it and copies it into his prayerbook.

Thinker
2007-08-03, 11:47 PM
The Archivist is broken because he can learn "Any" Divine Spell. This includes any Domain spell scribed as a scroll.

So, he gets Force Cage. He gets Magic Missle, he gets Dragon Ally. He gets Vortex of Teeth. He gets Wish. He gets Mage Armor. He gets Wall of Iron and Plague of Rats. He gets Gate, Time Stop, Greater Anyspell, and Disjunction.

He can prepare any 5th level Arcane spell as a 6th level slot.

He's got Cloudkill.

He's a Divine caster that can pull off the Greater Celerity + Time Stop + Cloudkill+ Forcecage Combo.

That's just a tiny part of why the Archivist is broken.

Don't forget every paladin, druid, or ranger spell as well. This becomes especially important when combined with the Spell Compendium.

Ulzgoroth
2007-08-04, 12:10 AM
Also the adept list, starring heal as a 5th level spell.

Archivist is very, very badly designed...

NullAshton
2007-08-04, 12:40 AM
For the lack of movement... can't you just use delay tactics like AoOs? Go 5 feet next to the wizard, ready an action to trip the wizard if he tries moving. Wizard tries stepping away, casts a spell. Those mage killer feats to get nifty bonuses against the mage, and making it practically impossible for the mage to get away without an AoO. Combine with combat reflexes and at least 12 dexterity(which you should probably have anyway for max AC), and you get two AoOs each round: Once when the wizard has to get back up from you tripping him, once when he either casts a spell or tries to get away from mister dwarf.

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-08-04, 12:54 AM
If the wizard is at all smart, you won't be able to get anywhere near that close--especially as a meleer who's also slow moving. Invisibility, any of the several spells granting flight, any of the several spells that let the wizard get out of the area quickly (Dimension Door and the like), all come to mind. Against archery, there's also Protection from Arrows and Wind Wall (or remaining unseen/out of range).

NullAshton
2007-08-04, 01:04 AM
If the wizard is at all smart, you won't be able to get anywhere near that close--especially as a meleer who's also slow moving. Invisibility, any of the several spells granting flight, any of the several spells that let the wizard get out of the area quickly (Dimension Door and the like), all come to mind. Against archery, there's also Protection from Arrows and Wind Wall (or remaining unseen/out of range).

A sack of flour to defeat invisibility. Boots of flying to defeat the spells granting flight. Dimension door and the like have the SLIGHT problem of still provoking an AoO, since the caster needs to concentrate. This isn't archery, this is a DWARVEN DEFENDER.

ZeroNumerous
2007-08-04, 01:08 AM
Contingent Dim. Door: If at any time that Dwarf gets within five feet of being able to hit me with his Big Pointy Reach Weapon(TM), Dim Door me away.

Second: Grease. Your square.

Third: Evard's Black Tentacles. All around you.


EDIT: Something I'd like to know if it's broken or not.. I wanna make a Telepath Psion. She'll be using Expanded Knowledge to gain the Metamorphasis power. She'll use that power to transform into a 15HD Behir. She'll also be a Thrallherd. Is Psion(Telepath) 5/Thrallherd 10/Slayer 5 broken?

TheOOB
2007-08-04, 01:15 AM
Hmm dwarven defender, isn't that the class where you give up all your tasty fighter bonus feats for a pseudo rage that prevents you from moving? The class has it's perks, but considering that by the time you get the class most important combat is airborn it's usefulness is debatable except in a 5' corridor.

VoP is a feat I'm not personally a fan of, not because it's overpowered, but because it's annoying. Sure monks and sorcerers can be pretty nasty with it, but D&D is a very gear dependent game, and taking it throws a wrench in a lot of DM plans that assume you have certain gear.

namo
2007-08-04, 01:30 AM
The only reason it requires a domain slot is because that's the only way to get it on your spell list without being an Archivist who reads a scroll of it and copies it into his prayerbook.


The prepared spell occupies your 6th level domain slot.

The only way to get around this is to have the Initiate of Mystra feat...which requires 3 levels of Cleric.

If you want a build *really* capable of making a wizard sweat, look there (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=883706). Ane even then the wizards has lots of options.

Against the above-mentioned DD, you could use swift/quickened spells, wands, take the trip and just crawl...

Tor the Fallen
2007-08-04, 01:45 AM
What book is the Celerity spell from?

ZeroNumerous
2007-08-04, 01:47 AM
PHBII. Ten character limit..

Tor the Fallen
2007-08-04, 01:51 AM
Ah, thanks. Couldn't find it on the WotC site.

Zincorium
2007-08-04, 02:56 AM
A sack of flour to defeat invisibility.
Not easy and definitely not certain. First, how do you know the caster is there to begin with? Unless you've maxed out listen, chances are the wizard will get the drop on you, and even listen assumes you're paying attention. For putting the flour in the air, it'd take a lot to fill even a small room to the point of being able to see where the flour isn't, and even then it'd still be hard to hit. Flour on the floor is only slightly better, and you can't actually see the caster with that method. Granted, it's better than nothing, but from the post it sounded like invisibility was worthless when flour is available, and that's certainly not true


Boots of flying to defeat the spells granting flight.
No, they don't defeat it, they only let you compete in the flying game. Boots of flying don't make a dwarf with 20' land speed, or only able to take a 5' step, any faster. The caster can easily move faster than the DD.


Dimension door and the like have the SLIGHT problem of still provoking an AoO, since the caster needs to concentrate.

Defensive casting. Absurdly easy at high levels. No AoO provoked in the first place, saving the wizard damage and a greater chance to lose the spell.



This isn't archery, this is a DWARVEN DEFENDER.

Not that the two are mutually exclusive. A bank of dwarven defenders could have done one hell of a job at Thermopylae, but notice that the persians were neither flying nor shooting lightning bolts from their fingers.

Bassetking
2007-08-04, 10:26 AM
The only way to get around this is to have the Initiate of Mystra feat...which requires 3 levels of Cleric.

If you want a build *really* capable of making a wizard sweat, look there (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=883706). Ane even then the wizards has lots of options.

Against the above-mentioned DD, you could use swift/quickened spells, wands, take the trip and just crawl...


Or, Namo, You have a Cleric with the "Spell" Domain fill a domain slot with "Greater Anyspell", and then Scribe it to a scroll.

Since the Archivist can learn "ANY" Spell presented on a Divine Scroll as a known spell, the Archivist can take this Scroll of Greater Anyspell(Divine) And memorize it.

Tah-dah.

Fax Celestis
2007-08-04, 11:27 AM
The only way to get around this is to have the Initiate of Mystra feat...which requires 3 levels of Cleric.

If you want a build *really* capable of making a wizard sweat, look there (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=883706). Ane even then the wizards has lots of options.

Against the above-mentioned DD, you could use swift/quickened spells, wands, take the trip and just crawl...

Anyspell does not bear that clause in its updated version in the Spell Compendium.

Arbitrarity
2007-08-04, 12:41 PM
Anyspell does not bear that clause in its updated version in the Spell Compendium.

Great. So now Archivists are even more broken 0.o.

Fax Celestis
2007-08-04, 12:43 PM
Great. So now Archivists are even more broken 0.o.

As if they weren't already.

Leon
2007-08-04, 12:44 PM
The PrC works better when you tweak it for IK -Order of the Wall (http://forums.privateerpress.com/index.php?showtopic=116800/)

Leon
2007-08-04, 12:48 PM
Why VoP is weak: "Oh no! A roc! Quick, monk, use your item that grants a flight speed that all characters of your level should possess! Wait, you took Vow of Poverty? Well, break out the ranged we- Oh, right, Vow of Poverty. Well, we're screwed."

Thats where you leave the Monk as sacrifice while the rest of the party legs it

lord_khaine
2007-08-04, 01:28 PM
anyway the short of it is this isnt broken, its just your dm who is wrong.

NullAshton
2007-08-04, 03:57 PM
The 'People with VoP can't fly' analogy is flawed, for one main reason: You really shouldn't be spending your money on flying magical items.

This is one place where the wizard can help the rest of the party and make everyone feel included. The wizard could prepare fly spells in advance. And then cast said fly spells on everyone in the party, INCLUDING SAID VOW OF POVERTY MONK.

Yuki Akuma
2007-08-04, 04:06 PM
The 'People with VoP can't fly' analogy is flawed, for one main reason: You really shouldn't be spending your money on flying magical items.

This is one place where the wizard can help the rest of the party and make everyone feel included. The wizard could prepare fly spells in advance. And then cast said fly spells on everyone in the party, INCLUDING SAID VOW OF POVERTY MONK.

But are you sure you really want to fill up four third-level spells slots a day, on the off chance that you'll be fighting flying monsters?

Wait, you don't play wizards, do you? Never mind, then.

Arbitrarity
2007-08-04, 04:13 PM
What if all 4 encounters are with flying monsters? Better prepare 16 fly spells.

namo
2007-08-04, 04:42 PM
Sorry to beat a dead horse, but I have to Dispel Rule Errors


Or, Namo, You have a Cleric with the "Spell" Domain fill a domain slot with "Greater Anyspell", and then Scribe it to a scroll.

Since the Archivist can learn "ANY" Spell presented on a Divine Scroll as a known spell, the Archivist can take this Scroll of Greater Anyspell(Divine) And memorize it.

edit: oops, completely misinterpreted/misread that at first. Yes, the Archivist can learn Anyspell. But he doesn't have domain slots, so it's of no use to him.

In the Anyspell description, it seems that an arcane spell prepared using Anyspell is still an arcane spell, so a Cleric can't scribe it. Now, some people point out that the rules for scribing scrolls don't explicitly say that you can't do that (nor do they say that a wizard can't help an archivist scribe a divine scroll from an arcane spell), but it's really a matter of "they didn't spell it out case by case".
I will agree that by RAW the Archivist has tons of loopholes (warlocks...) to learn every spell, but Anyspell isn't really one.


Anyspell does not bear that clause in its updated version in the Spell Compendium.

Yes, it does. If you don't want to read the Anyspell text, just check out the Greater Anyspell one, it's shorter but the relevant sentence is there.
Could you also drop by our game and just post that you're coming along ? :smallwink:

Arbitrarity
2007-08-04, 04:54 PM
Note: Arcane or divine is determined by CASTER. Anyspell is part of a domain (i.e. divine), and thereby can be scribed by a divine caster, making it a divine spell.

horseboy
2007-08-04, 05:15 PM
But are you sure you really want to fill up four third-level spells slots a day, on the off chance that you'll be fighting flying monsters?

Wait, you don't play wizards, do you? Never mind, then.

Ostensibly, isn't that what scrolls are for? The weird, rarely used but necessary when they're needed spells?

Yuki Akuma
2007-08-04, 05:28 PM
Ostensibly, isn't that what scrolls are for? The weird, rarely used but necessary when they're needed spells?

Not everyone gets the downtime needed to craft scrolls. There are many stingy DMs out there.

And, of course, then you're expecting the wizard to spend his own hard-earned XP just because you decided to play a hobo.

NullAshton
2007-08-04, 05:30 PM
But are you sure you really want to fill up four third-level spells slots a day, on the off chance that you'll be fighting flying monsters?

Wait, you don't play wizards, do you? Never mind, then.

No. You want to keep unprepared several spells, so that if you know you're going to face flying monsters, you'll be prepared in 15 minutes. Or just prepare a silly earthbind spell, you know, that one spell from somewhere that makes it so that flying creatures can't fly for a bit...

The Glyphstone
2007-08-04, 05:34 PM
EDIT: Something I'd like to know if it's broken or not.. I wanna make a Telepath Psion. She'll be using Expanded Knowledge to gain the Metamorphasis power. She'll use that power to transform into a 15HD Behir. She'll also be a Thrallherd. Is Psion(Telepath) 5/Thrallherd 10/Slayer 5 broken?

If Leadership is broken, Thallherd is broken but more so, because you can abuse/maim/slaughter your minions without any ill effects whatsoever, and you eventually get 2 cohorts, one of which is a level higher than normal.

If Polymorph is broken, Metamorphosis is broken but less so, because it's self-only (so you can't Metamorph the fighter into a War Troll), and Greater Metamorphosis (Psi Shapechange) requires XP to burn.

If neither are considered broken in your game, you're good to go.

namo
2007-08-05, 12:12 AM
Note: Arcane or divine is determined by CASTER. Anyspell is part of a domain (i.e. divine), and thereby can be scribed by a divine caster, making it a divine spell.

Sure, Anyspell is divine and Archivists can learn it - it's just of no use to them.

I realize I was very unclear in my last post - I was referring to the arcane spell prepared using Anyspell, which the cleric can't scribe. I have now edited it.

Starbuck_II
2007-08-05, 05:04 PM
Sure, Anyspell is divine and Archivists can learn it - it's just of no use to them.

I realize I was very unclear in my last post - I was referring to the arcane spell prepared using Anyspell, which the cleric can't scribe. I have now edited it.

After learning ir he can scribes scrolls of it or are you saying scrolls of anyspell are worthless?