Base Class Contest XXXIX Voting Thread

[Temotei]

Welcome to the voting thread for Base Class Challenge XXXIX, Undermined Scruples (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?522358-Base-Class-Contest-XXXIX-Undermined-Scruples)! Voting will consist of each voter giving a first, second, and third place vote for three separate base classes. Anyone can vote, and in fact, entrants must vote to qualify for victory.

A first place vote is worth three points, a second place vote is worth two points, and a third place vote is worth one point. You may not vote for your own class.

You are encouraged to include reason with your votes, though this is not absolutely required.

The class that ends up with the most points wins the challenge contest. Voting starts now and will continue until 23:59 (Central Standard Time USA/Canada; GMT-6) on June 21st.



Base Class
Author
1st
2nd
3rd
Total Points


Agent (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21941124&postcount=3)
Jormengand
0
1
1
3


Warlock (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21941211&postcount=4) (Rules and Spells (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21941215&postcount=5), Fel Companions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21941220&postcount=6))
Lanth Sor
0
0
0
0


Cowardly Hero (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21942228&postcount=7)
aimlessPolymath
2
0
1
7


Achalinotos (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21943167&postcount=8) (Exceptional Mythos (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21943168&postcount=9), Fantastic Mythos (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21943169&postcount=10), Legendary and Exalted Mythos (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21943171&postcount=11), Excellencies (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21943172&postcount=12))
Inevitability
0
1
0
2


Doctor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21973077&postcount=13) (Operations and Obsessions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21973097&postcount=14))
Almarck
1
0
2
5


Superior Object (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21973282&postcount=16)
noob
0
1
1
3


Supernal Thief (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21982359&postcount=18) (Alternate Class Features (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21982364&postcount=19))
Morphic Tide
0
1
1
3


Lawbender (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21986355&postcount=20)
Sandwyrm
2
1
1
9


Duskreaper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22021032&postcount=23)
Zancloufer
0
0
1
1


Underminer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22050772&postcount=24)
daremetoidareyo
0
0
0
0


Occultist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22058946&postcount=25)
Jirachi
0
0
0
0


Dream Weaver (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22067469&postcount=26) (Invocations (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22067475&postcount=27), Feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22067505&postcount=28))
Zaydos
3
3
0
15

[Morphic tide]

My votes are as follows:

1. Dream Weaver. The fluff is much more involved than the vast majority of things, being a particular Dream Weaver answering the questions, and the ability stealing mechanism allows them to run debuffing on some rather useful things. Pluck Skill (Concentration) makes Psions and Wizards actually be threatened by melee characters, for instance. Pluck Feat can murder a lot of builds due to how many major feat trees come off of single things. For example, taking away Power Attack destroys most melee builds by disqualifying the victim from a lot of their damage boosts.

2. Superior Object. First off, the wrong post is linked. It's post 16, the link goes to post 14. It's remarkably badly done, having no prerequisites and being rather arbitrary all around. I'm voting for it because I love the way it plays with the prompt by being absolutely amoral in the sense of having no morals at all.

3. Lawbreaker. It's built around silly stuff relating to nonsensical rules of the game. You can hypothetically turn any rules dysfunction into an Exploit, and I love this fact.

Yes, I'm voting based purely on things that don't play to the theme normally but still fit the theme. Underminer would be my 2nd vote, but I don't really see how it does the theme properly and I just don't like it because it's messed up on several levels.

[daremetoidareyo]

1.) Lawbreaker
2.) Dreamweaver
3.) Agent

I enjoyed all of the entries, and I resisted the pull of meta.

[noob]

Why is the infiltrator not in this list?
I would have voted for it.
Anyway since infiltrator is not in the list I vote for doctor(I always like mad scientist classes)
Then agent.(seriously if there was only deadly force I would still vote for it)
Then supernatural thief.(the low sneak attack progression is still weird I think it would make more sense if it had more sneak attack progression)



2. Superior Object. First off, the wrong post is linked. It's post 16, the link goes to post 14. It's remarkably badly done, having no prerequisites and being rather arbitrary all around. I'm voting for it because I love the way it plays with the prompt by being absolutely amoral in the sense of having no morals at all.
I through that base class did not need prerequisites?
Can you tell me any prerequisite for taking a level in barbarian?(other than starting age and that apply only on creatures that have an adult age line)
Also superior object explicitly needs the thing taking the class to be a non magical object.
Yes it is very badly done.
And I did make it need to be a non magical item for making it different from the centillion of class for objects that are all about being magical or using the power of mythology and rainbows or having yet another reason to become of their object class.
Reasons is a step toward morals I did not take.

[sengmeng]

Why is the infiltrator not in this list?
I would have voted for it.
Anyway since infiltrator is not in the list I vote for doctor(I always like mad scientist classes)
Then agent.(seriously if there was only deadly force I would still vote for it)
Then supernatural thief.(the low sneak attack progression is still weird I think it would make more sense if it had more sneak attack progression)


I through that base class did not need prerequisites?
Can you tell me any prerequisite for taking a level in barbarian?(other than starting age and that apply only on creatures that have an adult age line)
Also superior object explicitly needs the thing taking the class to be a non magical object.
Yes it is very badly done.
And I did make it need to be a non magical item for making it different from the centillion of class for objects that are all about being magical or using the power of mythology and rainbows or having yet another reason to become of their object class.
Reasons is a step toward morals I did not take.

Thanks for the love, but I agree with Temotei: it was not complete. Fluff matters.

[Morphic tide]

Then supernatural thief.(the low sneak attack progression is still weird I think it would make more sense if it had more sneak attack progression)
Supernal Thief. The Sneak Attack progression is to block access to acting like a full caster because the spell level limit is based on the Sneak Attack dice. In other words, the point of having it get one Sneak Attack dice every three levels is to get a new spell level to steal every three levels.


I through that base class did not need prerequisites?
Can you tell me any prerequisite for taking a level in barbarian?(other than starting age and that apply only on creatures that have an adult age line)
Alignment: Any Non-lawful. That's a prerequisite, right there.


Also superior object explicitly needs the thing taking the class to be a non magical object.
Yes it is very badly done.
And I did make it need to be a non magical item for making it different from the centillion of class for objects that are all about being magical or using the power of mythology and rainbows or having yet another reason to become of their object class.
Reasons is a step toward morals I did not take.
I understand that it's badly done. I voted for it anyway because I love the idea of it. Being amoral by being incapable of morality. Typically, a class's requirements are listed under either an Alignment tag or a Requirements section, rather than being in the fluff text.

[noob]

Supernal Thief. The Sneak Attack progression is to block access to acting like a full caster because the spell level limit is based on the Sneak Attack dice. In other words, the point of having it get one Sneak Attack dice every three levels is to get a new spell level to steal every three levels.
Except you can take one level in Supernal Thief then take one level in rogue and then keep dipping sneak attack classes for reaching 9d6 and possibly ur priest the slots you need to store the spells(quite complex to do that but I think it is technically doable).
Do not forget your class is not the only one with sneak attack.
Now if it was named snip attack or any other name the story would be different.

[Morphic tide]

Except you can take one level in Supernal Thief then take one level in rogue and then keep dipping sneak attack classes for reaching 9d6 and possibly ur priest the slots you need to store the spells(quite complex to do that but I think it is technically doable).
Do not forget your class is not the only one with sneak attack.
Now if it was named snip attack or any other name the story would be different.

I know this. The class is basically meant to be a dip for Spellthief, which in turn tends to dip into Rogue for more Sneak Attack dice. As for your idea, dipping into other Sneak Attack classes for accelerated progression, it's a flat out assumption. The entire reason for having the spell stealing run off of Sneak Attack dice is, in fact, dip friendliness. Gestalting with one of the near-full Psionic/Divine progressions on the other side is assumed, as well. It's very much a class built for being optimizable. You can go four levels in and get some nice SR and PR, as well as some minor casting and manifesting ability. Or you can go for just one level and use some other class for Sneak Attack dice, losing one level for a large Sneak Attack gish boost.

As an example, Supernal Thief 2/Psychic Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster 10/Wizard +2 gives you 7d6 Sneak Attack, 17th level Wizard casting, Intelligence to PP twice, three 1st level powers for utilities, ML 2, with a +1 ML for Telepathy and Clairsentience, a Familiar, a Wizard bonus feat, Scribe Scroll and Trapfinding. Oh, and 72 skill points just from your levels. And you have a lot of reason to go for Intelligence.

As a side note, there's literally nothing major you lose from grabbing Arcane Trickster. It's got the full Rogue Sneak Attack progression and full casting progression. Sure, the Rogue features past level 3 are far from ****, but they aren't really worth losing spell levels over. Hell, delaying 9th level spells to level 20 is a big enough hit for most. But you... don't actually lose anything major. Like, you get 4+Int skill points per level, lose no casting from Arcane Trickster levels, gain some nice abilities and don't lose any Sneak Attack progression.

[noob]

I know this. The class is basically meant to be a dip for Spellthief, which in turn tends to dip into Rogue for more Sneak Attack dice. As for your idea, dipping into other Sneak Attack classes for accelerated progression, it's a flat out assumption. The entire reason for having the spell stealing run off of Sneak Attack dice is, in fact, dip friendliness. Gestalting with one of the near-full Psionic/Divine progressions on the other side is assumed, as well. It's very much a class built for being optimizable. You can go four levels in and get some nice SR and PR, as well as some minor casting and manifesting ability. Or you can go for just one level and use some other class for Sneak Attack dice, losing one level for a large Sneak Attack gish boost.

As an example, Supernal Thief 2/Psychic Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster 10/Wizard +2 gives you 7d6 Sneak Attack, 17th level Wizard casting, Intelligence to PP twice, three 1st level powers for utilities, ML 2, with a +1 ML for Telepathy and Clairsentience, a Familiar, a Wizard bonus feat, Scribe Scroll and Trapfinding. Oh, and 72 skill points just from your levels. And you have a lot of reason to go for Intelligence.

As a side note, there's literally nothing major you lose from grabbing Arcane Trickster. It's got the full Rogue Sneak Attack progression and full casting progression. Sure, the Rogue features past level 3 are far from ****, but they aren't really worth losing spell levels over. Hell, delaying 9th level spells to level 20 is a big enough hit for most. But you... don't actually lose anything major. Like, you get 4+Int skill points per level, lose no casting from Arcane Trickster levels, gain some nice abilities and don't lose any Sneak Attack progression.
Here is the problem: you are nearly purely better off with a build like supernatural thief 1/ spellthief 1/something with good fort and will(maybe cleric for the domains)/sneak attack fighter 1/rogue 1/Ur Priest 1/shadowbane stalker 3/Ur priest 6/4 dips in other sneak attack progressing classes.
you get ninth level divine spells(and thus the ability to store them) and 9d6 sneak attack at level 19.
(you need to swap alignments frequently and yes progressing an evil class with a lg class is weird but it might work and that build would most certainly be amoral)
There is a need for cool stuff at high level in your class:there is barely any reason to not dip in sneak attack fighter or rogue if you go high level in that class.
(while if you made an awesome cap stone it would change the deal)
Still it is awesome.

[Morphic tide]

Here is the problem: you are nearly purely better off with a build like supernatural thief 1/ spellthief 1/something with good fort and will(maybe cleric for the domains)/sneak attack fighter 1/rogue 1/Ur Priest 1/shadowbane stalker 3/Ur priest 6/4 dips in other sneak attack progressing classes.
you get ninth level divine spells(and thus the ability to store them) and 9d6 sneak attack at level 19.
(you need to swap alignments frequently and yes progressing an evil class with a lg class is weird but it might work and that build would most certainly be amoral)
There is a need for cool stuff at high level in your class:there is barely any reason to not dip in sneak attack fighter or rogue if you go high level in that class.
(while if you made an awesome cap stone it would change the deal)
Still it is awesome.

My class isn't meant to be taken alone to level 20 if you are optimizing. It's own capabilities are centred entirely on giving what's needed for it to work properly. It's made to have room for a lot of optimization, but works just fine for most purposes on its own without any multiclassing. Much like the Tome of Battle classes, it works wonders as a dip, but is just fine alone. My aim with it is mid-high t3 to bottom of t2, with a lot of room for good t1 anti-caster setups.

And my suggested build is far simpler. Sure, you need to grab an AFC to swap Psionics for Arcane stuff to get the right spell steal, but it's just three base classes and a simple PRC. As for capstones... I'll think about it for the revision I plan to do post-contest. Maybe a cycle of pain style ability, expending spell slots and power points for extra Sneak Attack dice that carry a debuff based on the thing used, with the extra Sneak Attack dice being able to be used to take more spell levels for more dice the next time? You could power it off of the class's own internal PP and spell slots for massive damage in assassination of high-level casters or manifesters, using the first attack to strip them of a large chunk of their spell slots to use for the second attack, which in turn powers the third attack, ripping away probably all of the target's PP and spell slots in one round while likely dealing over twice as much damage as they have HP. Massive nova potential, great dump for spare spell levels and PP.

But this cuts out one of the few ideas I had for replacing Sneak Attack. Then again, half the fun of revision is that you can change the basis. I can adjust things enough to make the Martial capacity a proper third pillar to swap for Incarnum or Tome of Battle stuff and alter the wording to make it more coherent and need less wording on AFCs. Or I can do away with the need for AFCs and just have the Mantles be a pick-and-choose type class feature, with more strict restraints on the variety of what they do and defined slots for them to fill. But that would probably need a rename... Eh, not like I'm averse to wasting 5-10 hours on a single class, then spending another dozen hours on options for it.

[Zaydos]

1st - Cowardly Hero by aimlessPolymath While I'm uncertain about Scare Off (I have the same issues with it as Imperious Command except worse), and +10 to trip attempts might prove problematic, I'd allow the class in an actual game, and it fits characters such as Cugel and Rincewind better than the Rogue or in Rincewind's case better than even AD&D's thief.

2nd - Supernal Thief by Morphic Tide I'd consider allowing it, without the Arcane ACF probably wouldn't have much of an issue though I don't typically use that many divine casters or psions unless the party is fighting angels or illithids so there'd be a warning about that. It's a bit too much of a 4 level class though.

3rd - Doctor by Almarck What can I say I love mad scientists and the Dr. Moreau archetype.

[AuraTwilight]

1. Dream Weaver
2. Lawbreaker
3. Duskreaper

[Sandwyrm]

1. Dreamweaver. Dreams-as-fantasy-Internet is a compelling idea, and the first-person fluff really sells it. The attribute stealing feels like a more general Spellthief, which is nice if you're not facing down casters all the time, and I'm glad to see the Invocation system get some use outside the warlock class. I wish it had more information-based powers (maybe stealing/sharing knowledge or memories?) to better fit the fluff, though.

2. Achalinotos. This class is just so bizarre and epic in scope that it makes me want to check out all the other Mythos classes. Not sure how balanced it is but I guess in a way that's kind of the point.

3. Doctor. Some of the mechanics feel a bit forced thematically, but any class based on physically modifying yourself and others is one I can get behind.

[Temotei]

Votes tallied.

To confirm, sengmeng is correct--I omitted the infiltrator because there was no fluff.

[Almarck]

1 Lawbender Largely because I actually understood most of getting the jokes. Nice way to abuse THE RAW

2 Dreamweaver largely because it was unique and because of the narrarator.

3. Cowardly Hero Everyman in terrifying situations is a funny character archetype



3. Doctor. Some of the mechanics feel a bit forced thematically, but any class based on physically modifying yourself and others is one I can get behind.

I totally know what you mean. If given a chance I'd have redone the mechanics a bit.

[Temotei]

Votes tallied.

[Zancloufer]

Finally got around to reading the stuff enough so:

1) Cowardly Hero: Maybe not the most fleshed out class but IMHO I think it got the essence of the contest and has a decent balance point. It functions, it's cute and I think new players could figure it out quickly. The class from this list I would most likely include one of my games. Other than Duskreaper ofc. . .

2) Dreamweaver: It is, complicated. Though the mechanics seem to work and do throw a unique spin on gameplay. The fact that it's skill/feat stealing abilities can be used on the party at higher levels effectively is rather neat to. So much work went into this, though not sure if it fits the theme 100%.

30 Superior object: It makes no sense. It's mostly cute in the way you (as a DM) can make an innocuous object seemingly indestructible. It's more of a joke option, but I can see it maybe getting actual play.

[Morphic tide]

30 Superior object: It makes no sense. It's mostly cute in the way you (as a DM) can make an innocuous object seemingly indestructible. It's more of a joke option, but I can see it maybe getting actual play.

Even better, the DM can give one to the Fighter as a Cohort, should Leadership cheese be attempted. The Fighter gets a piece of crazy gear that levels with them, acting as a moderate plot device of sorts to keep the Fighter useful by having silly effects.

[Temotei]

Votes tallied.

Jormengand, Lanth Sor, aimlessPolymath, Inevitability, and Jirachi still need to vote to qualify.