Relative difficulty of Elder Evil campaigns?

[danielxcutter]

This one's a three-parter:

1. How hard are Elder Evil campaigns in general, run as written to the end, compared to an average campaign - homebrewed or official? That is, are they difficult to run/play?

2. What about each campaign compared to the others? (Yes, we all know that Pandorym campaigns suck if your favorite tactics are all conjuration spells or you're a divine caster, and you didn't get a heads-up, but no compentent DM would pull something like that on a player. Ignore specific situations like that.)

3. How about the final bosses - the Elder Evils themselves? How tough are they compared to a custom BBEG you can make, or each other?(I've heard the Hulks are underpowered, but remember that you fight all five at once and each will have already summoned allies when you get there. Allies count in terms of difficulty.)

Edit: Or you could just share your experiences with them instead.

[danielxcutter]

Yeesh, it's almost been 24 hours and absolutely no answers. :smallannoyed: Bumping.

[Baby Gary]

I have never played an elder evil campaign, I have never read the book until the villainous competition, and then I wasn't going to enter so I didn't fully read up on it. I would love to help but sadly I can't

to make you feel better have a cookiehttp://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1298/9625/articles/6_1024x1024.jpg?v=1466020166

[danielxcutter]

I have never played an elder evil campaign, I have never read the book until the villainous competition, and then I wasn't going to enter so I didn't fully read up on it. I would love to help but sadly I can't

to make you feel better have a cookiehttp://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1298/9625/articles/6_1024x1024.jpg?v=1466020166

Oh well, thanks.

And you might want to read up on it, it's really cool. Though you might not want to look too closely at the Ragnorra drawings.

[Nifft]

This one's a three-parter:

1. How hard are Elder Evil campaigns in general, run as written to the end, compared to an average campaign - homebrewed or official? That is, are they difficult to run/play?

2. What about each campaign compared to the others? (Yes, we all know that Pandorym campaigns suck if your favorite tactics are all conjuration spells or you're a divine caster, and you didn't get a heads-up, but no compentent DM would pull something like that on a player. Ignore specific situations like that.)

3. How about the final bosses - the Elder Evils themselves? How tough are they compared to a custom BBEG you can make, or each other?(I've heard the Hulks are underpowered, but remember that you fight all five at once and each will have already summoned allies when you get there. Allies count in terms of difficulty.)

I think you might get better responses if you asked people for their experiences with the Elder Evils, instead of trying to get a comparison between them and something which is totally arbitrary (e.g. "compared to a homebrewed campaign").

I mean ~my~ homebrews are obviously superior in every possible way, from an objective and humble perspective of course.

[danielxcutter]

I think you might get better responses if you asked people for their experiences with the Elder Evils, instead of trying to get a comparison between them and something which is totally arbitrary (e.g. "compared to a homebrewed campaign").

I mean ~my~ homebrews are obviously superior in every possible way, from an objective and humble perspective of course.

Have done. Thanks for the advice.

[The Viscount]

I haven't played these, but having gone through them several times with a critical eye I can tell you a few things.

The sign is going to be a big factor in determining difficulty. Sertous, for example, makes more encounters. If the party is well stocked on healing or has a bottomless source, this just means more hacking, slashing, and XP. Llymic's sign, for example when overwhelming makes it impossible to restore the special negative levels until he is killed, which can mean the party fights a long war of attrition.

The bosses are all over the map. Atropus is an epic encounter that needs real preparation, but Father Llymic himself is a marshmallow. He's only CR 18 with 360 hp and sonic vulnerability, a sufficiently prepared party can wreck him. The shard of Pandorym is tough, but you can literally ignore obligatum since he will focus on the prison and his sword can't bypass its hardness.

I think a useful comparison for the elder evils are the lords of the nine. They also span some CR, but I'd say the majority are more challenging because they have more options, frequently a lot of SLAs or spells, and a number can do more than just a standard or full round of attacks.

[Xervous]

It's been a while since I've looked over the elder evils and what degree of challenge they present, if you count 4ish years since Tippy's Trial a while.

A well optimized EL 20 character picking mostly monk and monklike classes can singlehandedly deal with all of the elder evils by virtue of being a big pile of numbers (excepting wishes necessary to dispose of baddies). This isn't to say they're all pushovers, just that there are few hazards that absolutely mandate a spellcaster to overcome.

The biggest thing of concern is a spellcaster with Disjunction on his list, not something most DMs would feel justified in tossing at players. As noted before there are some Elder Evils that require a wish or equivalent to finalize the defeat; this will at best be a plot point or at worst be a wealth and prep check.


atropus, AC: 44, touch 15, flat-footed 42 * dunno where the original error came from
father llymic, AC 31, touch 11, flat footed 28
female hulks AC 32, touch 8, flat footed 32
male hulk, AC 44, touch 20, flat footed 32
aspect of leviathan, AC 26, touch 2, flat footed 26
pandorym, AC 39, touch 25, flat footed 27, INCORPOREAL
Ragnorra first form, AC 36, touch 7, flat footed 35
True mother cord ACs: 47,42,32.
Aspect of Sertrous, AC 39, touch 9, flat footed 36
The worm that walks, AC 38, touch 30, flat footed 36
Zargon, AC 32, touch 10, flat footed 30

Most of these ACs are easily hittable by characters around 17th level. 17 BAB + 10 from STR/DEX + 5 GMW is a tame assumption.




Plain and simple, a big part of atropus is a gear check and potentially a slog of a fight given 858 hp, 20 fast healing, and 15 DR/epic and good. After all the undead they've been cutting their way through, if they're not packing the right immunities you die to the environment even before you reach atropus.

Spell likes and nasty rider effects on his +YES to hit slams mandate immunity to death effects, neg energy, and you're probably picking up attribute damage in the bundled deal. Lack these and the aspect will mow you down.

If you have Atropus slamming a melee twice per turn you're getting a good deal, barring AC shenanigans or exotic miss chance stacking he's just going to pummel them twice per turn for ~40 damage a smack. This is better than him unleashing AoE death. Do note that most melee will have trouble on the approach due to Atropus' 20ft reach, combat expertise means you have to worry about 2 OAs coming from the brute per round.

3/day meteor swarm: Barring AC shenanigans or exotic miss chance Atropus is likely to land all his shots, Fire is probably not what the players are expecting at first and 24d6 on a hapless victim could mean death or close to it.

And lastly there's his at will meteor shower. Costs him 50 hp and he hits himself but 15 DR and 20 fire res mitigate this. 10d6 fire, 10d6 bludgeoning. The save is impossible for the average character at DC 53. Only limitation is the 100ft range.


Atropus isn't at all fast, flying archers could whittle him down given enough time. If you stay out of melee range he's only got the meteor shower after shooting off the first three swarms. If there's temporary fire immunity available to the party it gets even easier. Still, 800+ hp with fast healing and resistances is a nasty slog. Things get nastier if there's stuff to tie the party up and allow Atropus to sit on people and slam them.




Caira Xasten is a caster with 9ths. Her default spell list isn't all that crazy. Paper AC. A potential nuisance with minions around.



Gorguth and Skyshadow can be considered a mounted pouncer with moderate damage output, some saves the PCs are probably immune to at this point. Highly dependent on how the DM plays it, warnings given or withheld about Skyshadow flying above people, and if easy targets are gone after first. Keen bastard sword with high values of power attack is tempting the dice gods. Aside from that he's not ridiculously durable, just mobile.


Moonlet encounters: standard fare, PCs wouldn't be here without immunities so it's nothing too crazy (minor vorpal shenanigans) with the exception of the Angels of Decay.

They do a bit of damage, they have enough hp to eat some hits. They'd be a reasonably challenging fight between their self healing and the moonlet's boons - except for the stacking DC 27 will save or be nauseated. Oh did I mention there's six angels? The encounter calls for them to split up, one on one to party members - the rest go where they please in the event of <6 players. Highly dependent on DM and positioning, these have high party wipe potential given the automatic damage on their aura (reflex saves still doing partial damage). Oh and 1d6 rounds after combat starts the aspect waltzes over



Father Llymic

360 hp, 20 fast healing, DR 10/-

Biggest threat here is accumulating 20 stacks of Soul Chill. Players probably have some from the slog to reach Llymic. Sure he gets mooks to help him out but overall this is just a race against the stacks of Soul Chill, and an easy one at that.

The only issue here is if the player’s ignore the frost wyrm, which then comes to the Father Llymic fight.

Access to restoration helps to remove some of the initial stacks of soul chill accumulated before the Sign reaches overwhelming.

[Baby Gary]

atropus, AC: 44, touch 15, flat-footed 42 * dunno where the original error came from
father llymic, AC 31, touch 11, flat footed 28
female hulks AC 32, touch 8, flat footed 32
male hulk, AC 44, touch 20, flat footed 32
aspect of leviathan, AC 26, touch 2, flat footed 26
pandorym, AC 39, touch 25, flat footed 27, INCORPOREAL
Ragnorra first form, AC 36, touch 7, flat footed 35
True mother cord ACs: 47,42,32.
Aspect of Sertrous, AC 39, touch 9, flat footed 36
The worm that walks, AC 38, touch 30, flat footed 36
Zargon, AC 32, touch 10, flat footed 30


My 9th level druid can easily get up to 45 AC, so yah...

[Xervous]

My 9th level druid can easily get up to 45 AC, so yah...

Those are the ACs you'd be rolling to hit. The range of required AC to have a hope at dodging the heavy hitters strays to 60 and higher for some adventure paths.

[Silva Stormrage]

Also as a note, the elder evil "Campaigns" aren't very fleshed out in my opinion and are mostly just outlines for a campaign. I could imagine two DM's going very different routes. I would say for a mid op party though most elder evils and their signs are fairly good end bosses. The signs in particular are a very clever way of causing havoc in the party.

In defense of Father Llmyic which most people have stated as weak. By the time they encounter him light sources are basically going to be null and players are going to rely on other senses which usually have at most a 100ft range. He has dimensional door at will and an at will 100 MILE range "Send target into berserker mode" ability. If the DM plays Father Llmyic as a kiting boss sending in minions and trying to whittle down opponents he can be terrifying.