Planar binding in other planes

[Calthropstu]

Let's say I'm in or from another plane. Can I call people from the prime material plane? I remember in previous editions it was possible to get humans et al if you cast summoning spells while in other planes. Is there anything like that in 3.5 or pf?
If there is, I haven't seen it.

[Crake]

Let's say I'm in or from another plane. Can I call people from the prime material plane? I remember in previous editions it was possible to get humans et al if you cast summoning spells while in other planes. Is there anything like that in 3.5 or pf?
If there is, I haven't seen it.

Planar binding specifically? No, it only functions on outsiders and elementals (which means it can actually also call native outsiders like half fiends/celestials, or tieflings/aasimar) and can call any of those creatures (if given a specific name) from anywhere else, as long as they are within the spell's limit (6/12/18HD).

Gate however, simply specifies "extraplanar" so as long as the plane you're on treats a creature as extraplanar, you can use gate to summon that creature. Basically that means you can use gate to summon any creature onto a plane that is not it's home plane. You could for example gate a human to the abyss, or an efreeti to heaven, but you could not gate an efreeti to the plane of fire, or a human to the material plane.

Note that there are certain planes where nobody is considered extraplanar, and thus no creatures can be gated to these planes. Typical examples are the astral, and I believe in some cosmologies, the ethereal as well.

Because of this, the naturalized denizen feat also makes you completely immune to being gated in, since you are never considered extraplanar.

[Calthropstu]

Planar binding specifically? No, it only functions on outsiders and elementals (which means it can actually also call native outsiders like half fiends/celestials, or tieflings/aasimar) and can call any of those creatures (if given a specific name) from anywhere else, as long as they are within the spell's limit (6/12/18HD).

Gate however, simply specifies "extraplanar" so as long as the plane you're on treats a creature as extraplanar, you can use gate to summon that creature. Basically that means you can use gate to summon any creature onto a plane that is not it's home plane. You could for example gate a human to the abyss, or an efreeti to heaven, but you could not gate an efreeti to the plane of fire, or a human to the material plane.

Note that there are certain planes where nobody is considered extraplanar, and thus no creatures can be gated to these planes. Typical examples are the astral, and I believe in some cosmologies, the ethereal as well.

Because of this, the naturalized denizen feat also makes you completely immune to being gated in, since you are never considered extraplanar.

Hmmm. I hadn't considered gate. Thanks. I am thinking of using this as a campaign premise.

[Psyren]

You can Gate in "humans" but not any specific individuals. (Well, technically you can gate individuals, but they have no obligation to step through.) Given the massive variety that humans have, you might be wasting a lot of spell slots for no reason. The spell is largely for gating in monsters - there are tons of balors, and while several of them may even be unique, generally if you need a balor it doesn't matter whether you get Balor Mark or Balor Steve.

Planar Binding meanwhile does let you call individuals (though you need to know their names), but then you have to worry about negotiating and securing the trap and all that. And it doesn't work on humans in any event, regardless of plane.

[Evolved Shrimp]

You can Gate in "humans" but not any specific individuals. (Well, technically you can gate individuals, but they have no obligation to step through.)

Where does this limitation come from? The spell description itself only separates out deities and unique beings, but not humans:


By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord.

This sounds like you should be able to call a specific named human from another plane and thereby compel that human to pass through the gate. (As long as that human is on a different plane when you cast the spell.)

[Psyren]

There is no generic monster entry for "human." Therefore they're all unique beings. You might get Elminster, or you might get the local barber from the next town over.

[Zanos]

Where does this limitation come from? The spell description itself only separates out deities and unique beings, but not humans:
Bob the Level 18 wizard is a unique human.


There is no generic monster entry for "human." Therefore they're all unique beings. You might get Elminster, or you might get the local barber from the next town over.
There is, it's a 1st level warrior. Calling a generic human gets you one of those.

[Psyren]

There is, it's a 1st level warrior. Calling a generic human gets you one of those.

Point, I stand corrected

[Deadline]

I think the unique clause has been debated before. Some folks felt it didn't let you call an individual, others thought that it referred to "unique" beings that aren't Deities, like the Tarrasque.

Since it is a 9th level spell, and it doesn't make sense that a lower level spell is more powerful (I think that Planar Binding and the like let you call a specific individual), I'm inclined to roll with the latter definition of unique.

[Zanos]

I think the unique clause has been debated before. Some folks felt it didn't let you call an individual, others thought that it referred to "unique" beings that aren't Deities, like the Tarrasque.

Since it is a 9th level spell, and it doesn't make sense that a lower level spell is more powerful (I think that Planar Binding and the like let you call a specific individual), I'm inclined to roll with the latter definition of unique.
Planar binding makes you jump through hoops that Gate doesn't. You have to set up a magic circle, beat SR and the target gets a will save, then beat their charisma check. Even GPB is capped at 18 HD, and only outsiders and elementals. Gate is unquestioningly a more powerful spell for conjuring help, since it's a standard action, offers no save, automatically provides control of anything that doesn't have more HD than double your caster level.

You also have to use an "individual's proper name" to call a specific creature through planar binding. I think this is fairly difficult for outsiders, but the rules for outsider names were never particularly concrete.

[Psyren]

Since it is a 9th level spell, and it doesn't make sense that a lower level spell is more powerful (I think that Planar Binding and the like let you call a specific individual), I'm inclined to roll with the latter definition of unique.

Gate IS stronger. You can't Planar Bind humans at all.

[Evolved Shrimp]

Bob the Level 18 wizard is a unique human.

But not a unique being. Otherwise, Grod, the 18th Level orc barbarian would also be unique - as would any other named or otherwise unambiguously specified being.

If that would be so, the ability to compel a specific being that is mentioned in the spell description could never be used.

I think the spell description only makes sense when „unique“ is assumed to refer to beings that are not members of a species (or the only members).

[Zanos]

But not a unique being. Otherwise, Grod, the 18th Level orc barbarian would also be unique - as would any other named or otherwise unambiguously specified being.
Grod sure is unique too.


If that would be so, the ability to compel a specific being that is mentioned in the spell description could never be used.
You can compel Joe, the first level human fighter. Or Gumbi the generic solar. They are specific examples of a generic creature entry.

[Evolved Shrimp]

I don‘t see anything in the spell description nor do I know of any other sources that would seem to me to support that interpretation.

Are there sources I might have overlooked?

[Psyren]

But not a unique being. Otherwise, Grod, the 18th Level orc barbarian would also be unique - as would any other named or otherwise unambiguously specified being.

Bingo, you're starting to get it.



If that would be so, the ability to compel a specific being that is mentioned in the spell description could never be used.

The spell says you CAN'T compel a specific being. That's what "under no compulsion" means.

[The_Jette]

The spell says you CAN'T compel a specific being. That's what "under no compulsion" means.

The spell says that you can call a "particular being or kind of being" then says that you can't summon "unique beings." This would seem to be contradictory, if you use the definition of "unique being" to be an individual person. However, the spell then goes on to talk about what happens if you choose not to call a "known individual." So, personally, I don't see how the argument that you can't Gate in Grodd, the level 18 barbarian, holds water. The Tarasque: unique being. Demogorgon: unique being. Elminster: not a unique being... terrible idea to gate him in, though.

[Psyren]

The spell says that you can call a "particular being or kind of being" then says that you can't summon "unique beings." This would seem to be contradictory, if you use the definition of "unique being" to be an individual person.

It's not contradictory at all. You CAN call specific beings. They simply have the choice to step through or not. So if Bob the Elder Water Elemental owes you a favor and he can't teleport to you, you can Gate him in instead. It has to be willing.

[The_Jette]

It's not contradictory at all. You CAN call specific beings. They simply have the choice to step through or not. So if Bob the Elder Water Elemental owes you a favor and he can't teleport to you, you can Gate him in instead. It has to be willing.

By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord.

The spell differentiates between "Deities and unique beings" and "a particular being", since a particular being is pulled through whether willing or unwilling. If a particular being was the same as a unique being, then why include it in the first place? I've had DMs who would rule that I couldn't force a human with class levels to follow my summons, and at that point there's nothing I can do about it. But, that isn't really how the spell is written.

[Deadline]

Gate IS stronger. You can't Planar Bind humans at all.

I mean, you're welcome to consider the ability to call and compel a 1st level human warrior as being more powerful than binding an Efreeti to your service, but I'm not sure I agree with that. :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

If a particular being was the same as a unique being, then why include it in the first place?

Can you point me to the RAW definition of "unique?"


I mean, you're welcome to consider the ability to call and compel a 1st level human warrior as being more powerful than binding an Efreeti to your service, but I'm not sure I agree with that. :smalltongue:

Apples to Oranges. You can Gate an Efreet too, and without that pesky "unreasonable commands" clause to get in the way. Or better yet a Solar, if that's really your bag. Therefore Gate is indeed stronger.

[Calthropstu]

Seeing as how I am considering this for a campaign opening, I don't think I have to worry about how the gm interprets how it should work.
I will use Gate, it looks exactly what I was looking for. It just means the person who uses it will be reading scrolls to summon the party.

[Deadline]

Seeing as how I am considering this for a campaign opening, I don't think I have to worry about how the gm interprets how it should work.
I will use Gate, it looks exactly what I was looking for. It just means the person who uses it will be reading scrolls to summon the party.

For what it's worth, I vaguely recall an old module or published adventure that had the party be what was summoned with a summon monster spell cast by one of the high-level players in the overall adventure. My memory is very fuzzy on the details, but I know I've seen the reverse summon/call thing before many years ago.

That being said, I've always wanted to try it. Let us know how it goes and if your players found it fun! :smallbiggrin:

[The_Jette]

Can you point me to the RAW definition of "unique?"

Since your argument also hinges on a RAW definition of unique, this doesn't seem to be in your favor. All I'm saying is that there's obviously a difference in their usage of unique being vs particular being, since they used both to refer to separate things. So, can you point to a RAW definition of unique that backs up your claim?

[Psyren]

Since your argument also hinges on a RAW definition of unique, this doesn't seem to be in your favor.

Actually mine doesn't, it's based on an interpretation. You can interpret it how you want at your table, and I will do the same at mine.

[The_Jette]

Actually mine doesn't, it's based on an interpretation. You can interpret it how you want at your table, and I will do the same at mine.

Agreed :smallbiggrin: