D&D 3.5e Paladin Dex Build (Home ruled dex to damage)

[BrotherSilence]

We are doing a new desert campaign that is all about being a really rough place to live in, where death is much more likely than normal (We were told to expect at least someone to kick the bucket within a few sessions) so I'm considering being a paladin to keep us around longer and maybe get through this with all our limbs in tack. One big issue is metal armor is basically off the table, as we would basically cook ourselves, studded leather is the most metal we can get. So since i can't use heavy or medium armor (except like hide i think) is a dex based paladin a viable option? Our DM will let us use dex to damage if we are using a finese weapon with the feat. Also everyone is going to be a LA +1 race and are doing a 32 point buy. so i was thinking going CatFolk for the dex and cha bonus but what do you all think? I'd love opinions on race, this paladin viability, build ideas, magic item and feat choices all that good stuff. i have access to the core rule books and CW/CD/CAdv/CA/MiC. my LA +1 race can be from any official book (like races of stone or Races of Faerun, anything he can get ahold of a pdf of) but my gear/prestige classes/Feats/magic items are limited to those books only. i won't be starting out with magic gear but it would be great to know what i should go for when i get the money (buying magic items won't be too difficult) Thanks in advance for all the help!

[emeraldstreak]

Sounds like your DM is "realism first" kind of guy, so I don't expect him allowing you to do much with Power Attack with rapier (or Endure Elements for that matter). At which point you'll need both Weapon Finesse and EWP: Spiked Chain to compete with the greatsword/Strength guy.

Being limited to studded also means that your AC as party will be low, and things like charging Orcs will literally curbstomp all of you. There are some non-armor ways out of this, like Whisper Gnome or Alter Self via feat/building a Sorcadin. Mind you, it's better to be high damage/low AC or low damage/high AC (defined as well above 20) than being middling damage/middling AC.

[BrotherSilence]

Yeah this campaign has a pretty solid focus on realism ( suggested by one of the players) and the other melee combatant is a Goliath Barbarian who is using a Large GreatHammer so he packs a massive punch (something like 3d6+7) but only has 13 AC (11 while raging) as a catfolk, could would 20 AC be enough going in? it would be 10+3(armor)+5(dex)+2(heavy wood shield). and isnt there that elven thinblade or something thats like a rapier but with longsword damage and you can power attack? i don't know how big a focus i need on damage since we got the Barbarian, a wu jen, and a rogue.

[Darrin]

We are doing a new desert campaign that is all about being a really rough place to live in, where death is much more likely than normal (We were told to expect at least someone to kick the bucket within a few sessions) so I'm considering being a paladin to keep us around longer and maybe get through this with all our limbs in tack.


I don't quite see how Paladin is supposed to help the party survive any longer than usual. It's considered an underpowered base class, and most of the ACFs that might make it more viable (see the A-Game Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?445134-Weekly-Optimization-Showcase-quot-A-quot-Game-Paladin) for examples) aren't in your allowed sourcebooks. If it's a high lethality game, a Catfolk Pouncebarian might be your best strategy: kill your enemies faster than they can kill you.



One big issue is metal armor is basically off the table, as we would basically cook ourselves, studded leather is the most metal we can get.


Looking through your sources... dragonhide (DMG pp. 283-284) is the only non-metallic special material I can find. If your DM is using standard book prices, it's not that expensive:

Hide 330 GP
Breastplate 700 GP
Banded 800 GP
Half-Plate 1500 GP
Full Plate 3300 GP



So since i can't use heavy or medium armor (except like hide i think) is a dex based paladin a viable option?


That depends somewhat on the optimization level of the group... but it's not the best chassis to start with. If you're going to focus on charging/pouncing, then a Str-based build will have an edge over you, as you've got to spend feats to use a finessable two-handed weapon (spiked chain or elven courtblade). The Charging Smite ACF (PHBII) and doesn't appear to be in your list of sources, nor does Battle Blessing (Complete Champion).

Can you use a template for the LA +1? You could do a basic Supermount build with a Draconic Strongheart Halfling:

Paladin 5/Beastmaster 1/Wild Plains Outrider 3/Halfling Outrider 10

[emeraldstreak]

Going back to the charging Orc example, it will hit you 1/3 of the time and wreck you really bad. Unfortunately, that's not nearly good enough. Being good is about your party being able to depend on you to do your thing (ie it can rely on that Goliath to dish out the hurt) consistently.

[BrotherSilence]

Dude Dragonhide is a really smart idea I didn't even think about that, and yes i can use a +1 template he is allowing those. i'm not too keen on the pouncing barbarian thing, feels like i'm to similar to our Goliath Barbarian tho that halfling outrider sounds like it might be kinda neat i'll look into it. any other suggestions for class styles. my starting gold is 1140 so i can totally grab dragonhide gear. also i should note nobody is Optomising just doing whatever sounds fun to them and fits the guidelines.

[Darrin]

Dude Dragonhide is a really smart idea I didn't even think about that, and yes i can use a +1 template he is allowing those. i'm not too keen on the pouncing barbarian thing, feels like i'm to similar to our Goliath Barbarian tho that halfling outrider sounds like it might be kinda neat i'll look into it.


I couldn't find any halflings with LA +1. Mineral Warrior (FR Underdark) Strongheart Halfling would also be a strong pick, if he's allowing templates. I suggested the Supermount build because everything you need is in your sources and the Special Mount is one of the few decent paladin features you can optimize around. That and a small-sized rider on a medium-sized mount means you can fit into most dungeon environments without squeezing too much.



would i be able to do something crazy and mildly dum like a paladin dervish and it turn out okay?

Paladin doesn't synergize well with Dervish, but it's doable if you multiclass with Fighter and/or Ranger. Paladin 3/Fighter 2 could be a decent entry into Dervish, as would Ranger 2/Paladin 1/Fighter 2. If you want to go Dervish, ask if you can get a pair of dragonsplits (MMIV). These are one-handed slashing weapons that count as light for TWF/Weapon Finesse. You can also Power Attack with them. Unfortunately, MMVI doesn't give a price for them.

[BrotherSilence]

i've been thinking, not sure i really want to be a small character, i don't know why really just would rather be medium. but i was looking at those dragonsplits those are pretty neat and you siad they count as light weapons for dual-wielding right? but they only do 1d6 and the crit range of a shortsword so wouldnt dual wielding 2 of those be the same thing? or like a scimitar and a shortsword? also since i'm allowed to buy dragonhide armor (assuming i can afford) what str build options are there that still give a decent AC? and would a dex build or a str build with dragonhide be better? i'm kinda torn between the two (i kinda want to do a draconic human with dragonhide armor cause the idea amuses me).

[Darrin]

i've been thinking, not sure i really want to be a small character, i don't know why really just would rather be medium.


The problem with a medium-sized paladin is your mount is large-sized. And that means bringing them down into a dungeon with 3' doors and 5' hallways can be problematic. A small-sized paladin on a medium-sized mount can take his mount pretty much anywhere a medium-sized humanoid can go. The biggest drawback to a small-sized melee-based character is they usually have a Strength penalty, hence why I suggested a Draconic halfling.



but i was looking at those dragonsplits those are pretty neat and you siad they count as light weapons for dual-wielding right? but they only do 1d6 and the crit range of a shortsword so wouldnt dual wielding 2 of those be the same thing? or like a scimitar and a shortsword?


Dragonsplits solve a couple of different problems because they are considered a light weapon for TWF and Weapon Finesse and a one-handed weapon for everything else, notably Power Attack. Yes, they have the same damage/crit range as a pair of shortswords, but you can't Power Attack with shortswords because they are light weapons.

A pair of scimitars has a different problem... they're one-handed weapons so Power Attack works with them, but they aren't light so you can't use Weapon Finesse and there are additional penalties for TWF. Normally, you can fix this with the Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting feat (Complete Adventurer), but the Dervish has an ability called Slashing Blades that forces you to treat them as light weapons "for all purposes", which means you can't Power Attack with it.

The reason I keep going on about Power Attack is because if you're going to TWF with Dervish, then you need a reliable method to add bonus damage to your attacks. Sneak attack isn't something you see on a lot of paladins, and Skirmish won't quite work here because although you have access to Complete Adventurer, you don't have access to Complete Scoundrel for Swift Hunter/Ambusher. Picking up Power Attack/Improved Bull Rush/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper isn't the best way to add bonus damage, but it fits in with what sourcebooks you have available. (There are several methods to add your Dex bonus to damage, but they're all outside your allowed sources.)



also since i'm allowed to buy dragonhide armor (assuming i can afford) what str build options are there that still give a decent AC? and would a dex build or a str build with dragonhide be better? i'm kinda torn between the two (i kinda want to do a draconic human with dragonhide armor cause the idea amuses me).

I don't really see a significant difference in AC between a meatbag with 18 Str/12-14 Dex and something with an 18 Dex/12-14 Str. A dragonhide breastplate with 14 Dex is AC 17. Studded leather with 18 Dex is AC 17. Either way, your starting AC is probably going to be around 17ish, and how it goes up from there is going to be largely dependent on how the loot drops.

[tedcahill2]

Couldn't you find a LA +1 race of template that gives you fire resistance/immunity? If you were resistant to fire could you not then wear metal armor all day and not worry about the desert heat?

[Zanos]

I think endure elements also makes wearing metal armor in the desert fine.

[BrotherSilence]

Man, I wish scimitars worked with finesse like rapier do, would be awesome. also, would it better to just drop the idea of dervish entirely? okay so out of these options which is better. a catfolk dual wielding paladin (i would get 19 armor class) using shortswords and moving to those dragonsplits after i get another feat/a catfolk sword and board style character using a elven blade prob that had 21 AC/ a strength based draconic human paladin duelwielding scimitars ( getting twf/oversized twf feat and having 17 AC)/ or a strength based sword and board draconic human with like a bastardsword and 19 AC? my mount i guess in any of those scenarios would be mostly for combat out in the open (should be plenty of that). i'm not worried about optimization as long as i'm not utterly useless i'm fine.

[Gruftzwerg]

Imho, I would roll a druid in your place instead of a Paladin. Cause what will the Paladin offer the party besides from Detect Evil at-will? Without heavy armor he will be even more useless. The tiny heal of Lay on Hands ain't worth it. Unless you are aiming for a special Paladin build I would recommend to role something else.

something else:
- a druid would be the most useful character in this scenario. You may wear leather and once you hit Wild Shape you can start to tank like a lil god (compared to the Paladin in leather..^^). And you can do that while having better and more spells. Everything for the trade off of some HD (d10 > d8) and some weapon/armor limitation.
- if it has to be a more martial and less caster type of class I would recommend Crusader instead. Has inbuild tank abilities, can build some nice combat heals (stance + strike) and is overall more capable of that what you intend than the Paladin imho.

dunno at which lvl you start and where your campaign will take you (lvl). Druid starts to shine after they get Wild Shape, but before will lack the tank feeling. Crusader instead would be solid option starting from lvl1. As said, depending on your lvl range you'll have different options for nice builds. The question for me is how much you insist on Paladin?

edit:
Depending on the lvl you start as race I would recommend a Lizardfolk (unless you go for a Druid ). For +1LA and 2 racial HD you get claws + bite attack (take multiattack) and a nice natural armor bonus (which should help to compensate the lack of heavy armor).

[BrotherSilence]

Also R.I.P, i forgot about the high dex requirement for TWF feats so that str dual wielding is not viable at all really. ugh yeah i have no idea what i'll do :( i might just be a dex dual wielding and get those dragonsplits.

[Gruftzwerg]

Dip 2lvls into Swordsage to get Wis to AC and take a Shadow Hand stance. The stance lets you take Shadow Blade feat, which gives you Dex to dmg with Shadow Hand weapons (dagger, sai, short sword, spiked chain, siangham, and unarmed strike).
Go for TWF and Crusader (min 1lvl) to get the Martial Spirit stance. Now you can heal 2hp per hit on any ally near you.
A solid early game build imho.

[LoyalPaladin]

Not sure if it's been mentioned before, but either the Elven Court Blade or Thinblade is finisseable and two-hand capable. Might be worth playing an A-Game with Power Attack and a Keen Thinblade.