Warlock Combo: The Meat Grinder

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Well, I had an interesting game session in which I played a level 5 Warlock and ended up doing some pretty ridiculous damage. As in more than usual. Granted, the circumstances helped maximize the potential, but the combo is pretty devastating regardless.

First off, as any Warlock, I picked up Eldritch Blast. Because duh. Old Ones pact. This is actually important.

Agonizing Blast, Repelling Blast, and Grasp of Hadar as the three invocations. We all know what Agonizing Blast does. Repelling Blast gives me the option to knock the opponent back 10', Grasp of Hadar gives me the option of pulling an opponent toward me 10'.

And then I cast Cloud of Blades. Now, because I'm a 5th level Warlock, it's doing 6d4 damage. It does so first when I cast the spell, then again on the start of the enemy's turn. That's 12d4 damage to a single target, no save. That's... pretty huge right there out of a 2nd level spell.

Then the opponent moved 5' forward to get out of the cloud of pain, and attacked an ally. When it got back around to my turn, I hit it with a Repelling Blast, knocking it back through the Cloud of Knives for another 6d4, then again with Grasp of Hadar, pulling it back, once again, through the cloud for yet another 6d4 damage. Plus, yanno, the 1d10+5 per blast itself.

In all told, to this one enemy, I did 24d4 + 2d10+10 damage in two rounds. Needless to say, it didn't survive.

This would really only work in a 'perfect storm' of circumstances where I can bounce the opponent through the cloud multiple times, but hey... it worked quite well for me. In fact, on the following round, someone knocked another enemy into the cloud of knives, rinse wash repeat. Had a fighter with the Underdark Tunnel Fighter variant with PAM and Sentinel to keep enemies more or less in place, which helped, however you could probably manage this if you have any other character doing battlefield control in the area (Entangle or Grease?) which keeps enemies from moving around much, or in tight corridors where they don't have much of a choice.

The opener does Cloud of Knives damage twice, no save. From then on, you're doing twice Cloud of Knives a number of times equal to the number of bolts you have with EB, plus the EBs themselves.

Umm... I think this beats the EB/hex combo. By a lot. If you can get it to work. And if not, Cloud of Knives is surprisingly lethal with a Warlock for guaranteed damage.

At 5th level, 12d4 damage is, on average, 30 damage. That's... pretty significant, considering there's no saving throw or attack roll. Then there's the subsequent rounds. Which gets another average of 30 damage plus the 2x EB for 21 damage on average for 51 damage on a single target. That's... pretty hefty single-target damage output at that level. I don't think even a 5th level Paladin can match that.

Anyway, cute little trick I thought I'd share. No clue how effective it will continue to be, but maybe someone can improve upon the reliability.

[tieren]

I would not allow this as a DM.

If I understand correctly you are saying you have 2 EB bolts because you are level 5 and you agonizing blast one of them and grasp of hadar the other and expect the enemy to move 10 feet backwards and 10 feet forwards at the same time.

All of the EB bolts fire (and hit) at the same time. Assuming a DM would allow different rider invocations for each bolt (which I do not believe is intended). Hitting the same target simultaneously with a push and a pull would result in no movement at all.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I would not allow this as a DM.

If I understand correctly you are saying you have 2 EB bolts because you are level 5 and you agonizing blast one of them and grasp of hadar the other and expect the enemy to move 10 feet backwards and 10 feet forwards at the same time.Yep


All of the EB bolts fire (and hit) at the same time. Assuming a DM would allow different rider invocations for each bolt (which I do not believe is intended). Hitting the same target simultaneously with a push and a pull would result in no movement at all.

Nope. This is explicitly not the case. Each one has its own separate attack, thus each one has its own separate effect, and are concurrent not simultaneous. For example, if you use Repelling Blast on an opponent at the edge of your range, you can push him out of range for your next blast and be ineligible for your blast, potentially wasting damage.

[Quoxis]

Nice combo, but it doesn't work just as well as you described.

Cloud of daggers (which i assume is the spell you're talking about) does damage "when [the opponent] enters the spell's area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there", meaning you can push them out and back in as much as you like, the cloud only hurts once.

The only application would be if the opponent is already inside the cloud, you push them out of it and then grasp them back in so they still start their turn inside.

Still a nice idea, and with a kind GM it might still work!

[BestPlayer]

Even without the DM allowing the character to yo you the enemy back and forth on the same round this is still an interesting tactic. Set up an area of effect behind the enemy and blast them into it or in front of them and pull them into it. I like it.

[tieren]

Nope. This is explicitly not the case. Each one has its own separate attack, thus each one has its own separate effect, and are concurrent not simultaneous. For example, if you use Repelling Blast on an opponent at the edge of your range, you can push him out of range for your next blast and be ineligible for your blast, potentially wasting damage.

I do not believe this statement to be true. I know they each have an attack role as some can hit and some can miss, but I believe it has been clarified that they all fire at the same time. You can not for example fire one of your blasts and then move around a corner and fire the rest, like a fighter with extra attack can.

If it is explicit please provide a citation to where it is explicitly stated.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Nice combo, but it doesn't work just as well as you described.

Cloud of daggers (which i assume is the spell you're talking about) does damage "when [the opponent] enters the spell's area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there", meaning you can push them out and back in as much as you like, the cloud only hurts once.

The only application would be if the opponent is already inside the cloud, you push them out of it and then grasp them back in so they still start their turn inside.

Still a nice idea, and with a kind GM it might still work!

Hmm... valid. Still, the combo of pushing an opponent back into/through Cloud of Daggers is still viable, if not as scalable as it first appeared.

Imagine at 9th level... Cloud of Blades being cast as effectively a 5th level spell for 10d4 damage. Cast it on someone, they take that minimum twice for 20d4 damage before you ever get to do anything. That's pretty boss right there. Then you knock them out of and back into it for another 10d4, then they take another 10d4 on their turn.

Yea, it's not as multiplicative as I'd hoped, but that's still solid damage output without a saving throw and situationally better than a Hex.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I do not believe this statement to be true. I know they each have an attack role as some can hit and some can miss, but I believe it has been clarified that they all fire at the same time. You can not for example fire one of your blasts and then move around a corner and fire the rest, like a fighter with extra attack can.

If it is explicit please provide a citation to where it is explicitly stated.

Please consult Sage Advice (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/07/14/4746/):


@JeremyECrawford If you get 3 attacks with eldritch blast, can the first attack push a target out of range of the next two attacks? — Jeremy Soard (@JeremySoard) June 26, 2015 Yes, Repelling Blast can push a target out of the range of subsequent beams from eldritch blast. https://t.co/NFvn2tEhSX

So he explicitly calls out subsequent blasts.

[tieren]

Hmm... valid. Still, the combo of pushing an opponent back into/through Cloud of Daggers is still viable, if not as scalable as it first appeared.

Imagine at 9th level... Cloud of Blades being cast as effectively a 5th level spell for 10d4 damage. Cast it on someone, they take that minimum twice for 20d4 damage before you ever get to do anything. That's pretty boss right there. Then you knock them out of and back into it for another 10d4, then they take another 10d4 on their turn.

Yea, it's not as multiplicative as I'd hoped, but that's still solid damage output without a saving throw and situationally better than a Hex.

I believe you are missing part of Quoxis' point. The spell doesn't hurt the enemy as soon as you cast it. It either has to enter the effect on another characters turn (which just standing in it isn't entering) or start its turn in it (which it will unless removed by someone else) so you are not getting the double whammy on casting.

On the other point I'll accept Crawford's tweet as supporting your position, but I still don't like it.

[monkey3]

I don't see the trick as working. Cloud of Daggers gives the effect when first time the target enters or at his start. At best you will get 1 extra "enter for the FIRST time" per use of spell to add to your regular "starts the turn in cloud" damage. I grant that you can pull push him into the cloud, so that he takes damage from the cloud once per turn.

At first you might think this is good, but I caution you that this 4d4 (higher at higher levels) damage is concentration, so it competes with the 1-4 d6's you get from Hex. I guess there is a damage boost here, but it is not 24d4 per turn.

[Lolzyking]

cloud of blades could be much more usefull if you have a party set up for it, its per turn so let's say you have a druid, with spiked growth for more stuff. you can repell them through, and out the other side of the cloud, then the druid can pull them back into the cloud on his turn.

[Maxilian]

Why not use other spells like the one that creates a difficult terrain and every 5 feet you move you take damage? (unsure if that would work with EB)

[CursedRhubarb]

While this may not work as thought with Cloud of Dust, it does work quite lovely paired with a Druid or Ranger that has Spike Growth. You can Hex/EB them then push and pull them around the Spike Growth area for nasty damage.

[Quoxis]

Hmm... valid. Still, the combo of pushing an opponent back into/through Cloud of Daggers is still viable, if not as scalable as it first appeared.

Imagine at 9th level... Cloud of Blades being cast as effectively a 5th level spell for 10d4 damage. Cast it on someone, they take that minimum twice for 20d4 damage before you ever get to do anything. That's pretty boss right there. Then you knock them out of and back into it for another 10d4, then they take another 10d4 on their turn.

Yea, it's not as multiplicative as I'd hoped, but that's still solid damage output without a saving throw and situationally better than a Hex.

A) As Tieren said, the spell doesn't cause damage upon being cast. It's questionable as per RAW whether the spell being cast on a field where a creature is already standing counts as the creature "entering" the cloud, but either way it takes either one time damage or none at all on the turn of the spell being cast.

B) The max damage a warlock can do with this spell is 10d4 at a time/in one turn (max 40, min 10), while a hex'd eldritch blast by a 9th-level warlock does 2d10+2d6 damage (max 32, min 4) - no arguing about that, yours is better. BUT on higher levels cloud doesn't get any better while the hexdritch blast gets 1d10+1d6 stronger each at level 11 and 17, for eventually 4d10+4d6 (max 64, min 8) - significantly better.
Of course your tactic would involve more rounds, but that damage isn't that reliable, or at least highly dependant on surrounding factors as stated in C.

C) Action economy. Cloud of daggers requires an action to cast, as does eldritch blast. You have to decide what to do with your turn, because unless you MC into sorcerer you won't get to cast both, and unless your opponent isn't trapped in a hole or something they'll move away from the cloud, even through you if needed.

C2) let's say you dipped 3 levels of sorcerer for quickened metamagic.
You cast the cloud 10-30ft behind your opponent, then shoot your bonus action eldritch blast(s, 3 of them to be precise, as your character is now at least at level 12) to knock them in. You now dealt 3d10+10d4 (+maybe 3x your cha modifier if you took the invocation for that) damage, and as soon as the opponent gets their turn, they'll suffer another 10d4. Altogether you did 3d10+20d4 damage (max 110, min 23) damage as a 12th level character. That is not bad at all, don't get me wrong, especially measured by the 3d10+3d6 (max 48, min 6) the standard hexdritch blast warlock would've done in that time. Measured by single target damage it even overshadows the 6th-level fireball(11d6 for max 66, min 11) a sorcerer of the same level could cast, even the disintegrate spell for 10d6+40 (max 100, min 50) can't deliver more potential damage (though it's more reliable). Hell, you could do your trick on 3 different targets (as you get 3 eldritch blasts per casting at that level) if the battlefield situation is favorable.

Final thoughts:
Though your tactic as you initially described it requires multiclassing, proper planning and plenty of die rolling, it definitely offers a lot of damage and can be used and abused by teammembers (grappling, shoving, different vine and tentacle related spells to force movement). The potential damage is slightly higher than what i could think of other characters would do, but the average damage will be the same or lower, and you can bet your DM won't allow the trick in each battle (even ingame a 12th-level character has some reputation, so your enemies would have heard of the guy who shoots people into a cloud of spectral daggers). I rate a solid 5/7.

P.S.: I also wrote, researched and calculated long enough for all possible food shops and restaurants in the vicinity to close, so i hold you accountable for me starving tonight :P