Cantrip Escalation

[The_Jette]

Okay, I did some searching, but couldn't find an answer to this question. When playing a multi-class, caster/non-caster character, how does one figure out the rate of escalation for the cantrips. So, suppose I'm a level 4 bard/ level 1 fighter and I have Vicious Mockery, which increases in damage from 1d4 to 2d4 at level 5. Does that mean the damage increases at character level 5, or at bard level 5? Or, just at level 5 for caster classes, i.e. a Wizard 4/Bard 1 would have the damage bump? This is for a character I'm playing in an AL game, and I'd rather have the answer before I return to the game next week.

[DivisibleByZero]

Cantrips scale by character level.
Think of an High Elf, gaining a cantrip no matter his/her class. It still scales as he levels.

[sightlessrealit]

Okay, I did some searching, but couldn't find an answer to this question. When playing a multi-class, caster/non-caster character, how does one figure out the rate of escalation for the cantrips. So, suppose I'm a level 4 bard/ level 1 fighter and I have Vicious Mockery, which increases in damage from 1d4 to 2d4 at level 5. Does that mean the damage increases at character level 5, or at bard level 5? Or, just at level 5 for caster classes, i.e. a Wizard 4/Bard 1 would have the damage bump? This is for a character I'm playing in an AL game, and I'd rather have the answer before I return to the game next week.

It increases at character level.

[Tetrasodium]

As others have said, 2d4 because they go by character level rather than class level. That & many other multiclassing ambiguities are covered in this podcast http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/adam-bradford-leah-koons-dd-beyond

[tkuremento]

As others have said, 2d4 because they go by character level rather than class level. That & many other multiclassing ambiguities are covered in this podcast http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/adam-bradford-leah-koons-dd-beyond

It is also in the Sage Compedium: Page 12 (https://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/DND/SA-Compendium.pdf)

[Millstone85]

What others said, and in my opinion that's a problem.

Cantrip escalation, as you call it, should have been tied to your level in the class that gave you the cantrip, or to your level in classes with the Spellcasting feature, or to something that doesn't let Wizard 1 / Champion 19 cast the cantrip as well as Wizard 20.

This is also what I regard as the best fix to the infamous warlock dip problem. Make the Eldritch Blast cantrip progress with warlock level. This changes nothing for a pure warlock, only the multiclassing is nerfed.

[deathadder99]

What others said, and in my opinion that's a problem.

Cantrip escalation, as you call it, should have been tied to your level in the class that gave you the cantrip, or to your level in classes with the Spellcasting feature, or to something that doesn't let Wizard 1 / Champion 19 cast the cantrip as well as Wizard 20.

This is also what I regard as the best fix to the infamous warlock dip problem. Make the Eldritch Blast cantrip progress with warlock level. This changes nothing for a pure warlock, only the multiclassing is nerfed.

Honestly, the best fix to the warlock dip problem is to not make capstones worthless instead, so you're actually giving something up. Sorcerer 20 should be so cool & awesome that it's a hard choice between Sorc 18/Lock 2 and Sorc 20. You're already losing either an ASI or Agonising Blast anyway.

[mephnick]

Honestly, the best fix to the warlock dip problem is to not make capstones worthless instead, so you're actually giving something up. Sorcerer 20 should be so cool & awesome that it's a hard choice between Sorc 18/Lock 2 and Sorc 20. You're already losing either an ASI or Agonising Blast anyway.

I'm still dipping for EB even if the capstones are amazing because the chances of getting to 20 in any given campaign are pretty much zero. EB scaling by level is a problem, it should be a warlock class feature.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'm still dipping for EB even if the capstones are amazing because the chances of getting to 20 in any given campaign are pretty much zero. EB scaling by level is a problem, it should be a warlock class feature.
Very much agree with this. Capstones are neat, but pretty much never matter in actual play. Eldritch Blast being markedly more powerful than other cantrips is an issue unrelated to normal scaling. (If you don't want to make it a class feature, pushing Agonizing Blast back to 5th makes the dip a whole lot less appealing)

[Findulidas]

I'm still dipping for EB even if the capstones are amazing because the chances of getting to 20 in any given campaign are pretty much zero. EB scaling by level is a problem, it should be a warlock class feature.

Well, some of the milestones on the way in the classes are also still pretty neat. You obviously get them later as well by going mc. So its not a given that just because you dont get the 20 capstones you dont miss something out by mcing.

[Millstone85]

Eldritch Blast being markedly more powerful than other cantrips is an issue unrelated to normal scaling.Eldritch Blast is supposed to be markedly more powerful than other cantrips. It is the signature of the warlock, which runs out of spell slots faster than full capital-s Spellcasting classes.

And the normal scaling of cantrips is weird. Extra Attack is tied to class level, so why isn't there anything like that for cantrips? Eldritch Blast is just the most visible manifestation of the problem.


If you don't want to make it a class feature, pushing Agonizing Blast back to 5th makes the dip a whole lot less appealingIt also makes playing a pure warlock from level 1 a whole lot less appealing.

Edit: But okay, I should probably wish EB was a class feature and keep it at that.

[Tetrasodium]

What others said, and in my opinion that's a problem.

Cantrip escalation, as you call it, should have been tied to your level in the class that gave you the cantrip, or to your level in classes with the Spellcasting feature, or to something that doesn't let Wizard 1 / Champion 19 cast the cantrip as well as Wizard 20.

This is also what I regard as the best fix to the infamous warlock dip problem. Make the Eldritch Blast cantrip progress with warlock level. This changes nothing for a pure warlock, only the multiclassing is nerfed.

It's because of how in prior versions multiclassing was death to casters who had all their spells tied to level in a class/ with spells tied to the level spell slot you cast it from, you can do things like be a cleric of $arcane deity by goimng cleric1 wiz/sorc/whatever or sorcadin & have your cure wounds spell keep up with the needs of the group instead of being both a crappy caster and a crappy healer. that arcane cleric would be behind a pure cleric/wiz/sorc, but with both sides yo will even out. Cantrips don't use spell slots either & use class level as a result for the same reason.
Sure eldro=itch blast might do more damage than other cantrips, but a caster who picks it up through MC will have less spell slots & delayed spell slot advancement making it not always optimal.

The same goes for a rogue or something that takes a level in some other martial class to pickup proficiency with a greataxe for increased damage alone. It might be a benefit, but the delay isn't worth that one isingle feature a by itself due to what it delays

[Afrodactyl]

What if Eldritch blast was a separate type of spell as a class feature (including agonizing blast in the base)? Maybe it could be a number of casts per short rest, equal to double your warlock level?

So it starts off stronger per shot at low levels but with notably lower casts separate from your normal spell slots, and by the time that you can spam EB, it doesn't really matter because your fighter is attacking eight times in six seconds and the wizard is cloning himself an army, and you still have normal cantrips and spells to fall back on.

[Sir cryosin]

What's wrong with letting cantrips scale by character level a wizard 1/ fighter19 ya that character can cast a fire bolt the same as a wizard 20 but a 20 level wizard isn't using attack cantrips sents 18th level. We're they can cast scorching ray at will at 2nd level.

Also other then the warlock 2 dip Eldritch blast thing. Cantrips are not Superior to anything at. Yes we have BB and GFB but they still not Superior in most cases.

[SharkForce]

Honestly, the best fix to the warlock dip problem is to not make capstones worthless instead, so you're actually giving something up. Sorcerer 20 should be so cool & awesome that it's a hard choice between Sorc 18/Lock 2 and Sorc 20. You're already losing either an ASI or Agonising Blast anyway.

the better solution is to make each class level cost something.

and incidentally, casters in general do that very well. that sorcerer/warlock multiclass is behind on getting some really awesome abilities. the level 3 sorcerer gets metamagic. the level 1 sorcerer/2 lock gets agonizing eldritch blast. that's nice, but is it metamagic nice? not to mention the level 3 sorcerer has level 2 spells. the warlock gets more level 1 spell slots, which is certainly nice, but isn't really comparable to getting web or even shatter. 2 levels later, the single-class gets fireball and hypnotic pattern and stinking cloud and fear access. 2 more levels, polymorph, at it's peak value, and greater invisibility, and banishment. 2 more levels, no animate objects. 2 more, no mass suggestion, sunbeam, or disintegrate. 2 more, it's finger of death an etherealness. and, as noted, the entire way along they have fewer of their other spell slots, except for level 1 spell slots (and let's face it, 6 level 1 spell slots are not worth missing out on an extra fireball in a clutch situation, let alone an extra mass suggestion or similar).

right up until level 20, the multiclass sorclock is paying for their considerably higher at-will damage by getting a less awesome nova (i don't know why everyone ignores the level 19 and 20 spell slots, getting an extra 6th and 7th level spell slot sounds like a pretty big deal to me). yeah, the sorcerer capstone is mediocre. so are a lot of others. but you pay every step along the way. i wouldn't call someone crazy for going sorclock, because they are getting something out of the deal, but i personally would rather not make that trade.

so i don't really consider the sorclock a problem. it's good at one thing. yes, that one thing is something casters have traditionally struggled with, but the simple fact is, the more levels you gain, the higher the cost becomes, and the less the benefit is worth, because you have more spell slots to be a caster with anyways.

to me at least, sorclocks kinda miss the point of being a spellcaster. as a spellcaster, everything revolves around expendable resources that make a big difference. cantrips are just something to use when you don't need to make a big difference. eldritch blast will give you faster mop-ups after you've won the fight, but high level spell slots are the things you use to make sure that you're going to win the fight in the first place. at level 5, fireball or hypnotic pattern can take an extremely hard fight and make it easy. eldritch blast with 2 1d10+4 bolts, is simply not going to trivialize a fight that wasn't already trivial nearly as effectively.

[Tetrasodium]

the better solution is to make each class level cost something.

and incidentally, casters in general do that very well. that sorcerer/warlock multiclass is behind on getting some really awesome abilities. the level 3 sorcerer gets metamagic. the level 1 sorcerer/2 lock gets agonizing eldritch blast. that's nice, but is it metamagic nice? not to mention the level 3 sorcerer has level 2 spells. the warlock gets more level 1 spell slots, which is certainly nice, but isn't really comparable to getting web or even shatter. 2 levels later, the single-class gets fireball and hypnotic pattern and stinking cloud and fear access. 2 more levels, polymorph, at it's peak value, and greater invisibility, and banishment. 2 more levels, no animate objects. 2 more, no mass suggestion, sunbeam, or disintegrate. 2 more, it's finger of death an etherealness. and, as noted, the entire way along they have fewer of their other spell slots, except for level 1 spell slots (and let's face it, 6 level 1 spell slots are not worth missing out on an extra fireball in a clutch situation, let alone an extra mass suggestion or similar).

right up until level 20, the multiclass sorclock is paying for their considerably higher at-will damage by getting a less awesome nova (i don't know why everyone ignores the level 19 and 20 spell slots, getting an extra 6th and 7th level spell slot sounds like a pretty big deal to me). yeah, the sorcerer capstone is mediocre. so are a lot of others. but you pay every step along the way. i wouldn't call someone crazy for going sorclock, because they are getting something out of the deal, but i personally would rather not make that trade.

so i don't really consider the sorclock a problem. it's good at one thing. yes, that one thing is something casters have traditionally struggled with, but the simple fact is, the more levels you gain, the higher the cost becomes, and the less the benefit is worth, because you have more spell slots to be a caster with anyways.

to me at least, sorclocks kinda miss the point of being a spellcaster. as a spellcaster, everything revolves around expendable resources that make a big difference. cantrips are just something to use when you don't need to make a big difference. eldritch blast will give you faster mop-ups after you've won the fight, but high level spell slots are the things you use to make sure that you're going to win the fight in the first place. at level 5, fireball or hypnotic pattern can take an extremely hard fight and make it easy. eldritch blast with 2 1d10+4 bolts, is simply not going to trivialize a fight that wasn't already trivial nearly as effectively.

I'll take it a step further. The moon druid capstone is widely stated to be "the most unbelievably overowerered capstone in the game" & capable of making a moon druid able to shrug off just about anything short of a save or die spell as long as it doesn't kill their wildshape plus their base form hp in one round... but a level in life cleric nets cure wounds as a domain spell, the first level cleric spells, some cleric cantrips, & heavy armor proficiency that can be used with stuff like plate barding to bring those wildshape critters up to 18+ ac from the 10-15ish they often have. The cleric capstone depends on your GM, but a two level in circle of spirits druid gives a life cleric access to an incredible aura projection 1/short rest, low level wildshape (lots of useful options), 1st level druid spells, & some druid cantrips as another example to show that it goes both ways

[SharkForce]

if you want more healing for your druid, i'd grab the healer feat. spell slots can do all kinds of awesome things. you shouldn't need crazy amounts of healing anyways... if you do, you probably need different tactics, not different builds.

multiclassing on any spellcaster has a price. every level you delay is costing you access to something awesome. yes, you can get good stuff. no, it isn't without cost.

(i will make an exception somewhat for clerics, who want to continue progressing spells but don't get nearly as many cool toys beyond a certain point, but even then they're missing out on something, it's just a not quite as awesome as what other spellcasters miss out on)

[Tetrasodium]

if you want more healing for your druid, i'd grab the healer feat. spell slots can do all kinds of awesome things. you shouldn't need crazy amounts of healing anyways... if you do, you probably need different tactics, not different builds.

multiclassing on any spellcaster has a price. every level you delay is costing you access to something awesome. yes, you can get good stuff. no, it isn't without cost.

(i will make an exception somewhat for clerics, who want to continue progressing spells but don't get nearly as many cool toys beyond a certain point, but even then they're missing out on something, it's just a not quite as awesome as what other spellcasters miss out on)

disciple of life is only one of the benefits of cleric splash for druids. bring able to recover 40 hp with a first (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/rules-answers-august-2015) level slot is pretty big. In addition you get a few more useful cantrips, the full first level cleric spell slots, and heavy armor proficiency. Any one option would just be an interesting curiosity. all four combined jump up to the realm of "hmm mayyyybe"

[Pex]

The player should play the character he wants to play, not what the DM wants him to play.

[Naanomi]

From a narrative standpoint, selling your soul for a quick power gain seems exactly on track...

[SharkForce]

disciple of life is only one of the benefits of cleric splash for druids. bring able to recover 40 hp with a first (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/rules-answers-august-2015) level slot is pretty big. In addition you get a few more useful cantrips, the full first level cleric spell slots, and heavy armor proficiency. Any one option would just be an interesting curiosity. all four combined jump up to the realm of "hmm mayyyybe"

heavy armour you might not be able to wear anyways, healing with no spell slots and continued full spell progression is better than healing lots with a level 1 spell slot, the cantrips are probably not necessary, the cleric level doesn't modify your number of spell slots anyways (or did you mean spells known? it isn't bad, but still probably not needed), and the spell list access is probably not needed either.

it's a "maybe", but it's still delaying access to more awesomeness, so it's no more than a maybe. pick it up if you want, but i'm still not convinced it's really optimal. druid spells are really amazing.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Eldritch Blast is supposed to be markedly more powerful than other cantrips. It is the signature of the warlock, which runs out of spell slots faster than full capital-s Spellcasting classes.

And the normal scaling of cantrips is weird. Extra Attack is tied to class level, so why isn't there anything like that for cantrips? Eldritch Blast is just the most visible manifestation of the problem.
Right; that's why presenting it as a normal cantrip is problematic. The "class features as spells" bit is a neat idea, but sometimes has unintentional consequences.


It also makes playing a pure warlock from level 1 a whole lot less appealing.

Edit: But okay, I should probably wish EB was a class feature and keep it at that.
Eh, low levels are probably when your normal casting compares most favorably with a full caster's. Blast as a class feature is probably the best move if you find Warlock dips to be problematic. I kind of don't. Cantrips scaling with total level serve a generally useful feature in that they can help keep multiclass builds together in the awkward early stages.

[Tetrasodium]

heavy armour you might not be able to wear anyways, healing with no spell slots and continued full spell progression is better than healing lots with a level 1 spell slot, the cantrips are probably not necessary, the cleric level doesn't modify your number of spell slots anyways (or did you mean spells known? it isn't bad, but still probably not needed), and the spell list access is probably not needed either.

it's a "maybe", but it's still delaying access to more awesomeness, so it's no more than a maybe. pick it up if you want, but i'm still not convinced it's really optimal. druid spells are really amazing.

taking the healer feat assumes that the druid doesn't have some other feat relevant to their role in the group in mind. You need to consider the opportunity cost. taking a level of life cleric effectively frees up a prep slot because cure wounds is a domain prepped spell. Yes you would be one level behind a full druid on access to new spells & wildshape forms if you splash a level of life cleric, but you would have cure wounds prepped free as a life domain soell, access to the full first level cleric spells, 3x cleric cantrips, and access to heavy armor to make up the difference as to the total spell slots available (not prep slots but slots), those would remain unaffected because both classes are full casters & the result for druid/cleric X is the same as druid/cleric X-1+cleric/druid1 on the phb165 multiclass spellcaster spell slots per level chart. It's a question of if you feel what you gain is worth as much or more than what you lose by being one level behind on access to new wildshape forms/spell tiers. Yea a level 6 moon druid as a CR2 AC12/42hp cave/polar bear is better than a CR1 brown bear AC11/34hp (simple example), but if that brown bear is a 5/1 druid/cleric & has AC18 from wearing full plate, it's not so clear cut. Both have basically the same attack since the proficiency bonus scales by character level

[Laserlight]

I wouldn't object to something like "You can't spend more than one invocation on EB until L5 Lock" and you choose whether you want control more than damage.

[Naanomi]

I wouldn't object to something like "You can't spend more than one invocation on EB until L5 Lock" and you choose whether you want control more than damage.
Or range... that is an EB invocation as well. With UA content you can spend most of your invocations messing with your EB at this point

[SharkForce]

taking the healer feat assumes that the druid doesn't have some other feat relevant to their role in the group in mind. You need to consider the opportunity cost. taking a level of life cleric effectively frees up a prep slot because cure wounds is a domain prepped spell. Yes you would be one level behind a full druid on access to new spells & wildshape forms if you splash a level of life cleric, but you would have cure wounds prepped free as a life domain soell, access to the full first level cleric spells, 3x cleric cantrips, and access to heavy armor to make up the difference as to the total spell slots available (not prep slots but slots), those would remain unaffected because both classes are full casters & the result for druid/cleric X is the same as druid/cleric X-1+cleric/druid1 on the phb165 multiclass spellcaster spell slots per level chart. It's a question of if you feel what you gain is worth as much or more than what you lose by being one level behind on access to new wildshape forms/spell tiers. Yea a level 6 moon druid as a CR2 AC12/42hp cave/polar bear is better than a CR1 brown bear AC11/34hp (simple example), but if that brown bear is a 5/1 druid/cleric & has AC18 from wearing full plate, it's not so clear cut. Both have basically the same attack since the proficiency bonus scales by character level

moon druids generally have spare ASIs, and in any event, won't be wearing full plate in bear form which is when they need it most :P

and it isn't just moon druid forms either. at character level 3, the single class gets access to flaming sphere, lesser restoration, and spike growth. at character level 5, the single class is supported by a pack of wolves or similar. at level 7, the single class gets polymorph. at level 9, the single class gets conjure elemental (one more level and the single class gets to have an elemental friend and also be one, while the multiclass... gets mainly class features that can't be used in wild shape, and which shouldn't be necessary with intelligent play in the first place).

and it continues on like that. the single class druid gets amazing new toys to play with a level earlier, the multiclass has to wait. the multiclass can heal more, sure (but if you needed that much healing, again, you need to fight differently, not build differently). well, the single class has better everything else, and still has good healing. don't get me wrong, more healing is good, but it isn't better than more everything else you do. it is perhaps less of a contrast than a 2-level dip (with a 1-level dip, the multiclass has the same goodies almost half the time), but it is still missing out on some really nice goodies. simply put, actual higher level spell knowledge can open up entire new amazing things for you to do, in a way that a higher level spell slot without that spell knowledge can't.

it isn't just trading out the capstone for a powerful ability. it's delaying your entire progression for a level 1 ability. and it's a pretty nice one. good enough that it's actually a thing to consider, which is saying something, because just taking straight druid levels is amazing. but it's still a trade-off. it costs something, and the cost is non-trivial.

in contrast, the cost of an early ASI to a moon druid is pretty small. you don't need high wisdom for conjure animals. and if healing isn't important enough to spend a feat on, it sure as heck isn't important enough to dip out of druid for.

[Pex]

Speaking from experience, I can say the Healer feat is more powerful than healing spells. My cleric is level 6 now. I literally have not cast one healing spell since the first session at 1st level when at that particular time it was really important to keep the fighter up more than what I could have done then. We got by on good play, potions, and short rest HD spending. At level 4 I took Healer feat instead of boosting Wisdom to 18 and proved to be the smartest thing to do. Bad guys are still failing saving throws and I hit with spell attacks an enough amount of times, and now we hardly even use potions any more though one is occasionally quaffed. Healer feat and rests. We're good. I still prepare Healing Word for emergencies, but not having to use spell slots for healing is absolute freedom.

I admit, when I first read of Healing Word and Cure Wounds I thought 5E gimped on healing and was mad. However, I see and experience what they did in spreading the healing around including self heals like Second Wind. I still think healing spells need to have more oomph, but really the concept of healing is one thing I have no complaints about 5E.

Now that's saying something! :smallbiggrin:

[Tetrasodium]

moon druids generally have spare ASIs, and in any event, won't be wearing full plate in bear form which is when they need it most :P

and it isn't just moon druid forms either. at character level 3, the single class gets access to flaming sphere, lesser restoration, and spike growth. at character level 5, the single class is supported by a pack of wolves or similar. at level 7, the single class gets polymorph. at level 9, the single class gets conjure elemental (one more level and the single class gets to have an elemental friend and also be one, while the multiclass... gets mainly class features that can't be used in wild shape, and which shouldn't be necessary with intelligent play in the first place).

and it continues on like that. the single class druid gets amazing new toys to play with a level earlier, the multiclass has to wait. the multiclass can heal more, sure (but if you needed that much healing, again, you need to fight differently, not build differently). well, the single class has better everything else, and still has good healing. don't get me wrong, more healing is good, but it isn't better than more everything else you do. it is perhaps less of a contrast than a 2-level dip (with a 1-level dip, the multiclass has the same goodies almost half the time), but it is still missing out on some really nice goodies. simply put, actual higher level spell knowledge can open up entire new amazing things for you to do, in a way that a higher level spell slot without that spell knowledge can't.

it isn't just trading out the capstone for a powerful ability. it's delaying your entire progression for a level 1 ability. and it's a pretty nice one. good enough that it's actually a thing to consider, which is saying something, because just taking straight druid levels is amazing. but it's still a trade-off. it costs something, and the cost is non-trivial.

in contrast, the cost of an early ASI to a moon druid is pretty small. you don't need high wisdom for conjure animals. and if healing isn't important enough to spend a feat on, it sure as heck isn't important enough to dip out of druid for.

You are basing large chunks of your argument on why no druid should ever take a level in life cleric on the flawed assumption that disciple of life & cure wounds as a domain prepped spell (ie free prep slot) are the only reasons to do it. As I've already pointed out more than once, there are many reasons why they might want to consider it. Then you compound your error by stating wildly incorrrect rules & perhaps your personal judgement in place of all GM's personal judgement. The idea that there are not ways for a moon druid with heavy armor proficiency could not wear some form of plate armor as a bear, is flatly ridiculous because there are multiple ways that it could be accomplished by both plain reading of raw & raw explicitly granted gm interpretation.


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While you will get no argument that conjure X spells can be incredibly powerful in combat, they are concentration spells first of all, and second of all adding all of those extra critters to the battlefield can be a hair pulling maddening experience for everyone with plenty of reasons to want to avoid.... so much so that even while talking about how circle of spirits was great for summoner druids, there were people noting that it was a sure fire way to drive a GM & possibly party mad.


Speaking from experience, I can say the Healer feat is more powerful than healing spells. My cleric is level 6 now. I literally have not cast one healing spell since the first session at 1st level when at that particular time it was really important to keep the fighter up more than what I could have done then. We got by on good play, potions, and short rest HD spending. At level 4 I took Healer feat instead of boosting Wisdom to 18 and proved to be the smartest thing to do. Bad guys are still failing saving throws and I hit with spell attacks an enough amount of times, and now we hardly even use potions any more though one is occasionally quaffed. Healer feat and rests. We're good. I still prepare Healing Word for emergencies, but not having to use spell slots for healing is absolute freedom.

I admit, when I first read of Healing Word and Cure Wounds I thought 5E gimped on healing and was mad. However, I see and experience what they did in spreading the healing around including self heals like Second Wind. I still think healing spells need to have more oomph, but really the concept of healing is one thing I have no complaints about 5E.

Now that's saying something! :smallbiggrin:

It's not about bumping a druid's healing capacity. If you go back to how this rediculous tangent started here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22075715&postcount=12) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22076190&postcount=16) it had nothing to do with most of what sharkforce has been going on about & was just about how multiclassing was not death to casters like in prior editions & that there were good reasons why a caster might want to over gaining access to things a level earlier or maybe one day getting to their capstone.

[Monavic]

What others said, and in my opinion that's a problem.

Cantrip escalation, as you call it, should have been tied to your level in the class that gave you the cantrip, or to your level in classes with the Spellcasting feature, or to something that doesn't let Wizard 1 / Champion 19 cast the cantrip as well as Wizard 20.

This is also what I regard as the best fix to the infamous warlock dip problem. Make the Eldritch Blast cantrip progress with warlock level. This changes nothing for a pure warlock, only the multiclassing is nerfed.

I don't see that as a problem the champion may cast the cantrip as often or more then the wizard ever has and could be just as good with it. The wizard has advantages in magic anyway from a likely higher casting stat to possible school abilities effecting cantrips. Also the problem with warlock dip is not a general cantrip problem. If you find it a problem nerfing eldritch blast is better then give warlock something to make up for the loss.

[Laserlight]

adding all of those extra critters to the battlefield can be a hair pulling maddening experience for everyone with plenty of reasons to want to avoid.... so much so that even while talking about how circle of spirits was great for summoner druids, there were people noting that it was a sure fire way to drive a GM & possibly party mad.

I just banned summoners outright, and encouraged the other DMs here to do the same. Combat takes long enough as it is.

[Naanomi]

I just banned summoners outright, and encouraged the other DMs here to do the same. Combat takes long enough as it is.
Do you can the conjuration subclass as well, or provide them an alternate benefit?

What about necromancers? Animate dead/create undead also banned? Replacement ability for them?

[SharkForce]

You are basing large chunks of your argument on why no druid should ever take a level in life cleric on the flawed assumption that disciple of life & cure wounds as a domain prepped spell (ie free prep slot) are the only reasons to do it. As I've already pointed out more than once, there are many reasons why they might want to consider it. Then you compound your error by stating wildly incorrrect rules & perhaps your personal judgement in place of all GM's personal judgement. The idea that there are not ways for a moon druid with heavy armor proficiency could not wear some form of plate armor as a bear, is flatly ridiculous because there are multiple ways that it could be accomplished by both plain reading of raw & raw explicitly granted gm interpretation.


While you will get no argument that conjure X spells can be incredibly powerful in combat, they are concentration spells first of all, and second of all adding all of those extra critters to the battlefield can be a hair pulling maddening experience for everyone with plenty of reasons to want to avoid.... so much so that even while talking about how circle of spirits was great for summoner druids, there were people noting that it was a sure fire way to drive a GM & possibly party mad.



It's not about bumping a druid's healing capacity. If you go back to how this rediculous tangent started here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22075715&postcount=12) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22076190&postcount=16) it had nothing to do with most of what sharkforce has been going on about & was just about how multiclassing was not death to casters like in prior editions & that there were good reasons why a caster might want to over gaining access to things a level earlier or maybe one day getting to their capstone.

barding is not heavy, medium, or light armour (also, if it was not obvious, it is also not a shield). you are proficient in human armour, not bear armour (never mind the logistical concerns of owning and carrying armour for every form you might possibly want to use). and even if you were, heavy barding is most probably made of metal, so you still can't wear it. it is also particularly not very good for a moon druid. you want to be able to switch between your human form and your wild shape as a bonus action (and in fact, if you can't, then that *drastically* reduces the value of being able to cast any of your spells at all... what's the point in having extra level 1 cleric spells known if you have to default to animal form so you can wear your barding, which means every level 1 cleric spell you cast had bloody well be worth more than a wild shape use that it is costing you). transform and then spend 5 minutes while a couple of friends put your barding on for you (even if you were proficient, which you aren't) is just not going to work well.

question: does the game break down into a complete and utter disaster when the DM brings out 8 goblins to fight you? if not, then what makes you think it's a complete and utter disaster when a druid brings out up to 8 minions? now, if the druid is not prepared, it can be a problem (if they have no idea what wolves do, or what they want to do with the wolves, or if they don't have the stats handy, for example). but that's true for anything. a wizard can spend 5 minutes debating which spell is the right one to use if you let them.

and it pretty much *is* about bumping a druid's healing capacity if you're dipping life cleric (especially on a moon druid which is what the original suggestion was). the armour proficiency doesn't do you much good most of the time (if you can find suitable heavy armour, you could probably also find suitable medium armour, which means it's only a 1-point AC boost since in human form as a caster you'll want higher initiative so you can cast your spells before others and make your big impact early...), your own higher level spell list is better than the cleric level 1 spell list, you don't need a huge number of level 1 cleric spells or cantrips known, which leaves the crazy healing efficiency. which is not a bad thing, but it *is* basically the only thing worth looking at for a druid. none of the rest of the stuff on that list is particularly great. so it is pretty much just about healing. nothing else in that list even comes close to justifying the dip.

i mean, when you talk about life cleric adding heavy armour proficiency to, say, a wizard? that's really interesting. going from no armour proficiency (and probably using up a spell slot) to full plate + shield is big. wizards probably don't have room for much more than 13-14 dex until late in their career, so being able to just use full plate and a shield is a huge boost. but druids? you can probably start with that same 13-14 dex, which is pretty near all you'll ever need, and reach only 1 point of AC behind that full plate + shield anyways. that isn't nothing, but it also isn't much of a big deal (unless for some reason your AC was in the high 20s or something. then it would be a big deal. but there's a lot more needed for that than just switching to full plate instead of half plate).

[Tetrasodium]

barding is not heavy, medium, or light armour (also, if it was not obvious, it is also not a shield). you are proficient in human armour, not bear armour (never mind the logistical concerns of owning and carrying armour for every form you might possibly want to use). and even if you were, heavy barding is most probably made of metal, so you still can't wear it. it is also particularly not very good for a moon druid. you want to be able to switch between your human form and your wild shape as a bonus action (and in fact, if you can't, then that *drastically* reduces the value of being able to cast any of your spells at all... what's the point in having extra level 1 cleric spells known if you have to default to animal form so you can wear your barding, which means every level 1 cleric spell you cast had bloody well be worth more than a wild shape use that it is costing you). transform and then spend 5 minutes while a couple of friends put your barding on for you (even if you were proficient, which you aren't) is just not going to work well.

question: does the game break down into a complete and utter disaster when the DM brings out 8 goblins to fight you? if not, then what makes you think it's a complete and utter disaster when a druid brings out up to 8 minions? now, if the druid is not prepared, it can be a problem (if they have no idea what wolves do, or what they want to do with the wolves, or if they don't have the stats handy, for example). but that's true for anything. a wizard can spend 5 minutes debating which spell is the right one to use if you let them.

and it pretty much *is* about bumping a druid's healing capacity if you're dipping life cleric (especially on a moon druid which is what the original suggestion was). the armour proficiency doesn't do you much good most of the time (if you can find suitable heavy armour, you could probably also find suitable medium armour, which means it's only a 1-point AC boost since in human form as a caster you'll want higher initiative so you can cast your spells before others and make your big impact early...), your own higher level spell list is better than the cleric level 1 spell list, you don't need a huge number of level 1 cleric spells or cantrips known, which leaves the crazy healing efficiency. which is not a bad thing, but it *is* basically the only thing worth looking at for a druid. none of the rest of the stuff on that list is particularly great. so it is pretty much just about healing. nothing else in that list even comes close to justifying the dip.

i mean, when you talk about life cleric adding heavy armour proficiency to, say, a wizard? that's really interesting. going from no armour proficiency (and probably using up a spell slot) to full plate + shield is big. wizards probably don't have room for much more than 13-14 dex until late in their career, so being able to just use full plate and a shield is a huge boost. but druids? you can probably start with that same 13-14 dex, which is pretty near all you'll ever need, and reach only 1 point of AC behind that full plate + shield anyways. that isn't nothing, but it also isn't much of a big deal (unless for some reason your AC was in the high 20s or something. then it would be a big deal. but there's a lot more needed for that than just switching to full plate instead of half plate).

Life, Nature, Tempest, & war domain clerics get heavy armor proficiency at level1 among other things (ie disciple of life/martial weapon proficiency/etc) that varies from omain to domain. a wizard would gain heavy armor proficiency from each of those cleric domains just like a fighter taking a level of rogue would gain sneak attack & such. There is no proficiency for barding, the hair splitting semantics you are using trying to suggest that heavy armor proficiency wouldn't let someone in the form of an animal wildshape/polymorph/etc) wear plate barding is a very dangerous slope illustrated here (https://twitter.com/JM13136849/status/852569850421673984).

The cleric domains that give heavy armor proficiency don't require light/medium armor proficiency & don't grant them. Given that the multiclassing podcast actually mentions things like a wizard/sorc taking a level or two of cleric to get access to cure wounds & some cleric stuff before continuing on as a wizard/sorc possibly being some of the hybrid/cleric of mystara types suggests that it is RAI that they get it as well but would not include shield proficiency since it's ot on either table for clerics. A wizard1 life cleric1 could theoretically wear heavy armor & cast shield with the same number of spell slots as a wiz2 or cleric2. When you multiclass you gain 2 things. The first is whatever the chart on page 164 says you get for that class. The second is whatever the 1st level line on the class chart. in the case of cas barbarian for example that 1st level line is rage 2x, UAD, & +2 rage damage. With a rogue for example that line is expertise, sneak attack, thieves' cant. With a cleric that is spellcasting & a divine domain choice. Since cleric is a full 1/1 caster progression it counts the same as a level of druid/wizard/sorcerer for the chart on 165 where it shows multiclassing spell slot progression... so you could get level X spell slots to cast lower level spells in before you even have access to a single level X spell & use those slots to gain the benefits of casting spells you have access to from them

[SharkForce]

Life, Nature, Tempest, & war domain clerics get heavy armor proficiency at level1 among other things (ie disciple of life/martial weapon proficiency/etc) that varies from omain to domain. a wizard would gain heavy armor proficiency from each of those cleric domains just like a fighter taking a level of rogue would gain sneak attack & such. There is no proficiency for barding, the hair splitting semantics you are using trying to suggest that heavy armor proficiency wouldn't let someone in the form of an animal wildshape/polymorph/etc) wear plate barding is a very dangerous slope illustrated here (https://twitter.com/JM13136849/status/852569850421673984).

The cleric domains that give heavy armor proficiency don't require light/medium armor proficiency & don't grant them. Given that the multiclassing podcast actually mentions things like a wizard/sorc taking a level or two of cleric to get access to cure wounds & some cleric stuff before continuing on as a wizard/sorc possibly being some of the hybrid/cleric of mystara types suggests that it is RAI that they get it as well but would not include shield proficiency since it's ot on either table for clerics. A wizard1 life cleric1 could theoretically wear heavy armor & cast shield with the same number of spell slots as a wiz2 or cleric2. When you multiclass you gain 2 things. The first is whatever the chart on page 164 says you get for that class. The second is whatever the 1st level line on the class chart. in the case of cas barbarian for example that 1st level line is rage 2x, UAD, & +2 rage damage. With a rogue for example that line is expertise, sneak attack, thieves' cant. With a cleric that is spellcasting & a divine domain choice. Since cleric is a full 1/1 caster progression it counts the same as a level of druid/wizard/sorcerer for the chart on 165 where it shows multiclassing spell slot progression... so you could get level X spell slots to cast lower level spells in before you even have access to a single level X spell & use those slots to gain the benefits of casting spells you have access to from them

1) of course no proficiency for barding is mentioned. no armour proficiency for any NPC is listed. that doesn't mean you don't need proficiency. NPCs (including monsters, miscellaneous creatures, etc) are by default assumed to have proficiency in equipment they come with. PCs, however, have proficiency only with specific things that are listed on their character sheet. barding is not one of the things armour proficiency gives you.

2) i never said cleric levels can't give you heavy armour proficiency, or that they require any previous proficiency (in fact, i specifically noted that dipping for armour had more appeal for a wizard because they were going from nothing to full plate, which is a much bigger difference than half-plate to full-plate when you already want good dex anyways). i said that druids already have medium armour proficiency, which is almost as good anyways, and that heavy armour proficiency adds very little value for a druid. so i have no idea what you're raving on about, but you might want to review that because you appear to be arguing against something that nobody ever said in the first place (or at least, not in this thread).

[RSP]

barding is not heavy, medium, or light armour (also, if it was not obvious, it is also not a shield). you are proficient in human armour, not bear armour (never mind the logistical concerns of owning and carrying armour for every form you might possibly want to use). and even if you were, heavy barding is most probably made of metal, so you still can't wear it.

Agree that a wild shaped Druid cannot wear metal armor/barding, however, barding is armor, and is Light/Med/Heavy:

"Barding. Barding is armor designed to protect an animal’s head, neck, chest, and body. Any type of armor shown on the Armor table in this chapter can be purchased as barding. The cost is four times the equivalent armor made for humanoids, and it weighs twice as much."

The types of barding are from the normal Armor table, which have the qualities of being one of the types of Armor. Nothing in Barding states this has changed.

Also, you are either proficient in a type of armor, or you are not. There is no "Human Armor Proficiency." If there were, that would really suck for the Human Fighter who kills the BBEG wearing magical Full Plate only to find out it's actually "Half Elf Armor," which the human fighter is not proficient in.

But, again, agree Druids can't wear metal, regardless of form.

[RSP]

1) of course no proficiency for barding is mentioned. no armour proficiency for any NPC is listed. that doesn't mean you don't need proficiency. NPCs (including monsters, miscellaneous creatures, etc) are by default assumed to have proficiency in equipment they come with.

AFB, but online sources indicate the Warhorse does not come with barding, therefore, if using the NPCs are assumed to be proficient argument, Warhorses would not be proficient in any barding, which I think goes against RAI. RAW though, they may not be proficient.

Or, possibly, no proficiency is needed for barding, thou this goes against bardings correlating to the Armor Table types (which require proficiency).

[SharkForce]

AFB, but online sources indicate the Warhorse does not come with barding, therefore, if using the NPCs are assumed to be proficient argument, Warhorses would not be proficient in any barding, which I think goes against RAI. RAW though, they may not be proficient.

Or, possibly, no proficiency is needed for barding, thou this goes against bardings correlating to the Armor Table types (which require proficiency).

warhorse with barding is a variant, like spellcasting dragons. officially, it doesn't modify the CR, though that seems rather odd to me considering it can be the difference between AC 18 and AC 11, which would certainly modify the CR on most other creatures...

[RSP]

warhorse with barding is a variant, like spellcasting dragons. officially, it doesn't modify the CR, though that seems rather odd to me considering it can be the difference between AC 18 and AC 11, which would certainly modify the CR on most other creatures...

I'd imagine the CR would go up too, thou then you could just add barding to a mount and increase beast forms available for Polymorph, which probably goes against RAI.

[Waterdeep Merch]

I'd imagine the CR would go up too, thou then you could just add barding to a mount and increase beast forms available for Polymorph, which probably goes against RAI.

As a variant, you basically need to calculate the CR increase yourself as per the DMG. An AC hike like that most certainly will increase its defensive value.

Spellcasting, as in the dragon variant, is a lot harder to figure out. Even the DMG is like 'lol, just guess bruh'.

[SharkForce]

I'd imagine the CR would go up too, thou then you could just add barding to a mount and increase beast forms available for Polymorph, which probably goes against RAI.


As a variant, you basically need to calculate the CR increase yourself as per the DMG. An AC hike like that most certainly will increase its defensive value.

Spellcasting, as in the dragon variant, is a lot harder to figure out. Even the DMG is like 'lol, just guess bruh'.

just for clarity, the armoured warhorse variant doesn't neglect to mention CR changes, it actually specifies that no matter what kind of barding the warhorse has, it does not modify the CR at all.

(now, if you're saying that you think that's dumb, and that it really should modify CR, then i would agree, but i wasn't saying there was an absence of rules on CR change for the variant armoured warhorse, i was saying that there is an actual rule about there being no CR change).