Phantasmal Force vs Shatter vs Heat Metal vs Hold Person vs Silence! [Archive]

View Full Version : Phantasmal Force vs Shatter vs Heat Metal vs Hold Person vs Silence!

MarkVIIIMarc

2017-06-09, 12:05 AM

Socratov

2017-06-09, 03:46 AM

I love Heat Metal.

sure, it's not always applicable.

But when it is, it's golden.

Duergar? Roasted.
Enemy Paladins? Charred to the bones.
anything involving wearing metal: done for.

Guaranteed damage. No Save.

or you sped a spellslot to make someone not use a certain metal object (well it grants a save, but stillI't either save or let go or damage).

Despite my love for it, it's situational.

Shatter is if not as good (it grants save for half), it's applicable as damage just about everywhere.

And those will be your damage options

Silence vs. Hold Person vs. Phantasmal Force, I love the last one and have used the former one to great effect. Hold person can be fantastic, but silence is AOE and can stop multiple enemy casters as well as communication for the enemy.

So obviously pick that one.

On Phantasmal force vs. Hold Person

This depends on your desired effect: do you want to take someone out of the fight and let him be while you focus on other enemies or do you want to disable someone so he makes for a great target.

If you look at the former, well phantasmal force is your pick
If you want the latter, well, that juicy autocrit and advantage on a hold person'd guy will seriously wreck his day.

My personal fun layout would be:

Silence, Phantasmal Force and Heat metal

My master tactician build would be:

Silence, Phantasmal Force, shatter

My Melee support picks are:

Silence, Hold Person, Shatter

Quoxis

2017-06-09, 06:32 AM

I'm a sucker for phantasmal force.

- it's an int save. Basically nothing targets int, so it's a good spell to got to when you're fighting a big stupid brawler with all kinds of good stats, because chances are their int has been dumped. Also good against beasts, undead... Everything with low int is basically effed.

- depending on DM there won't be saving throws - the initial one excluded. The spell description says a creature can use its action to make an investigation check determining whether the phantasm is real or not. A) i'd argue that depending on credibility of the phantasm an NPC would realistically not doubt it (see the flavor text about them rationalizing the illusions outcomes), and B) if you made an illusionary threat to them (huge fire, and earthquake, a dragon poking its head around the corner, giant rocks falling out of the blue sky...) it's logical to run to safety instead of checking whether one's going to get crushed or not.

- shenanigans with illusions (i may or may not have illusionarily entombed a claustrophobic PC in an inescapable sarcophagus as retaliation for hitting me in a social setting)

Citan

2017-06-09, 07:04 AM

ARGH, why are there soo many good 2nd level Bard Spells and soo few slots. Which three of these five would you take?

Silence seems like it will shut down an enemy caster if I can time it so a party member can grapple them in the silenced area.

Heat Metal just kicks butt so I can't see dropping it.

Hold Person is great but another wisdom save. A chance to stop somatic component spells though.

Phantasmal Force in an intelligence save but my DM makes me come up with something pretty nifty.

Shatter is a Constitution save and my only ranged damage spell at this point.

Background:
"My Party" consists of:

Lore Bard leveling up to 5 next session
Wizard lvl 5
Rogue lvl 5 (with a haunted +1 sword that is bound to cause trouble)
Ranger lvl 4 (traded the sword to the Rogue for a Misty Step magical belt)
Sometimes a Monk (he might be lvl 3 still if we don't bump him next time he shows), sometimes a Cleric lvl 4, never both somehow lol.

My Half Elf Lore Bard rolled:
Str 9
Dex 17
Con 13
Int 9
Wis 13
Cha 18

We have not allowed feats.

Cantrips
Dancing Lights (which has been of limited use so I can drop it for minor illusion)
Message
Vicious Mockery

1st Level
Charm Person
Faerie Fiare
Healing Word
Thunderwave

2nd Level
Heat Metal
Phantasmal Force
Shatter

3rd Level (will probably take)
Bestow Curse
Fear

Hi!
Well, when I have trouble with choice I go with some kind of opportunity cost. For you I'd translate it as "which spells are exclusive to me" with a ponderation of "what is usually my kind of contribution"?
Phantasmal Force is on Wizard's spell list (ask your DM if you can write it up on a scroll so that Wizard can learn it before you "unlearn" it. Honestly not sure what RAW is but since it's a spell on Wizard's spell list I think it's not game-breaking at all -after all, Wizard still has to prepare it if he really wants to use it)
Shatter also is on Wizard spell list, as well as Hold Person.

So, to make either of them worth keeping, imo you have to use them on a regular basis.
Now for the exclusives:
- Heat Metal: always an extremely great all-around spell against any armored enemy: bonus action damage for you, threat weakening if you targeted metal armor usually makes a big difference. I'd definitely keep it.
- Silence: can be ritual-cast, so that's a plus because it means you can use it in many situations in which you want to sneak and have some time to plan your entry, either the whole group or just the Rogue. Can be paired to great effect with a Wizard's Fog Cloud. In fight, it can certainly be useful but only, as you guessed, with some proper teamwork involved (Monk being the prime candidate, then Ranger using Ensnaring Strike, then Rogue if high enough STR or Expertise in Athletics). So it's not a "you have to have it" kind of spell, but still useful in many many situations with a bit of wits: canceling the "We are here!" effect of a Knock, enhancing the discretion of a traveling camp, ensuring a silent kill from afar (cast Silent around an isolated guard before Rogue unleash a Sneak Attack arrow or Monk rushes to jump him) etc etc...

So to summarize...
- Heat Metal: keep this one whatever happens.
- Phantasmal Force: if you are creative with it and Wizard is not interested, keep it. Otherwise consider swapping for Silence or Hold Person.
- Shatter: keep it if you feel you use it often (=your party really needs a secondary AOE caster beyond Wizard), otherwise I'd say it's a prime candidate for swapping.
- Hold Person: always a good spell to pair with Rogue and Ranger's weapon attacks. If you have solid teamwork, this can be golden.
- Silence: great versatile spell and ritual cast: with proper teamwork, this is even better imo because more complex to use in fight, but useful more often globally.

In your place, since my impression is that you are a creative one, I'd keep Heat Metal, Phantasmal Force and Silence. ;)

Pex

2017-06-09, 07:42 AM

Silence, Heat Metal, Phantasmal Force

Silence - When you need to shut down spellcasters or sometimes enhance party stealth. Niche but worth it.

Heat Metal - Cast on enemy armor, no save persistent disadvantage. Golden. Niche but worth it.

Phatasmal Force - Your go to 2nd level attack spell. Intelligence save means opponents usually fail. The only limit is your imagination.

Why not . . .

Hold Person: Excellent spell but opponent gets to roll a save every round. Unlike Phantasmal Force it's an easier save and it's automatically rolled where as for Phantasmal Force the enemy doesn't necessarily know it needs to make an Investigation check, which is still usually hard.

Shatter: Damage spells in 5E do matter, but it's not the Bard's specialty. Dissonant Whispers satisfies the need and get Fireball from your class feature if you really need or want an area effect damage spell.

coredump

2017-06-09, 09:07 AM

Heat Metal: Of course. Its just too fun and too effective when you can use it.

Hold Person: Not yet, I don't like it until you can upcast it for multiple targets.

Shatter: Damage is cute, but not the best use of your slots.

Phantasmal Force: Not a fan. Minimal damage potential, and doesn't seem to be all that effective otherwise. This may depend on how your DM adjudicates illusions. And it takes concentration.

But I think you missed a few golden options:

Suggestion: One of the most interesting, fun, and possibly over-powered spells in the game. We once had a bad guy make our bard spend the entire combat picking up sticks for their fire.

Blindness: Being blind can be a real drag for the bad guy. But the main advantage is this is *not* a concentration spell. So you can use it along with Suggestion or Heat Metal or...etc.

I would (did) pick
Heat Metal
Suggestion
Blindness
Silence

Finger6842

2017-06-09, 09:40 AM

- Heat Metal: In 7 levels I've never had an opportunity to cast this but I stubbornly refuse to get rid of it, one day I'll fight a solo plate wearing monster and when I do, i'll have this.
- Phantasmal Force: This is a great spell I also have rarely had opportunity to use other than during performances.
- Shatter: A go to spell, you will need to create separation and AOE packs. This one is a keeper.
- Hold Person: In practice fails way to often essentially wasting a spell slot.
- Silence: This is best used to prevent people from hearing you sneak. Trying to control a caster this way is difficult even with a 40' diameter. DM's always seem to know where to move the mob to exit the silence instead of say, moving in the wrong direction and ending your turn still in the field. The spell must have some kind of visual tell I'm unaware of. Unless needed for sneak, drop this spell and take counterspell with magical secrets. I took counterspell and haste but many people swift quiver to haste.

So:
Cantrips
Dancing Lights - I took Mage Hand here, very useful for staying out of traps.
Message - I took light here despite having dark vision. There are several instances where extra light can improve your chances of finding traps/runes/secret doors etc. It can also cause advantage/disadvantage in combat.
Vicious Mockery - Definitely keep this, it isn't the most useful spell you'll have but it's certainly fun.

1st Level
Charm Person - Take a look at Identify and comprehend languages. both are rituals and incredibly useful. Charm Person has too much downside.
Faerie Fiare
Healing Word
Thunderwave

2nd Level - all these are nice choices, Invisibility and Blindness also have a lot of use opportunities.
Heat Metal
Phantasmal Force
Shatter

3rd Level (will probably take)
Bestow Curse
Fear
Plant Growth was big for me here. I saved a village from starvation and sold my services to several towns for essentially "blessing" the lands. It was good downtime RP that your DM might support and provide you with a solid income. It's also useful in combat depending on where you like to adventure.

KnotaGuru

2017-06-09, 09:52 AM

I like hypnotic pattern over fear. No additional chance to save after the initial casting. Keeps enemies in place. It can be used in social situations. If your allies get caught in area it's much easier to recover from than dropping their weapon and fleeing in terror.

Breashios

2017-06-09, 12:19 PM

There's a lot of good advice and options presented. I think the easy one to drop is Hold Person. Tasha's Hideous Laughter at 1st level fulfills that role, at least in combat at half the range. Personal experience is that neither has been all that successful. Hideous Laughter was awesome once when a major NPC just couldn't make his save for almost the whole duration, but never worked more than a round after that in 11 levels of play.

After that I'd just look at what style you want your Bard to exhibit and pick the spells based on that. They all play their role.

SharkForce

2017-06-09, 04:40 PM

i'd go with heat metal and silence as well, drop hold person, but the choice between shatter and phantasmal force is a bit harder, because simply put it depends on what your DM thinks it means.

so, first things first, describe some scenarios with phantasmal force to the DM and ask what would happen:

- you use phantasmal force to create chains around a creature. does the creature walk out and rationalize that the chains were broken by a lucky strength check, or does the creature struggle against the fake chains?

- you use phantasmal force to make the creature think it fell into a pit (fill it with snakes or something). does the creature drop prone (to represent the fall) then try to climb the walls and justify that it failed (because you can't climb air), get an automatic free action investigation check with advantage because it didn't actually fall, or drop prone and then start making investigation checks because there is no spell that makes a 10 foot deep pit full of snakes, or drop prone but then decides it's an illusion and walks through the fake walls?

- you use phantasmal force to make a wall that somehow deals damage (acid spray traps, spears, whatever). does the creature try to push on the wall to break and everyone else sees it pushing against an invisible wall as it's mind prevents it from just pushing through, or does it just take d6 damage, fall through, and think that it broke the wall?

feel free to make up your own additional scenarios. basically, if it's the first scenario every time, phantasmal force is amazing and you should take it, because it's great at shutting down most single targets. if it's the last situation every time, ditch the spell, shatter provides some AoE damage which can be fairly nice. if it's more in the middle, you'll have to use your best judgment, but i'd lean towards dropping phantasmal force.

Biggstick

2017-06-09, 06:12 PM

First off, out the gate, I don't know how anyone hasn't noticed that you have 9 spells on your list. If you're a level 5 Bard, you should only have 8.

With your party, it looks like you should be doubling up with the Wizard on being able to control the battle field. You're ranged magical support that wants to stay as far away from melee as possible while ensuring that your Rogue, Ranger, and Monk can do as much damage without having to tank as possible. People might say, "No, no, no! Let the Wizard control the field!" I'd respond by saying to look at this party make-up. You don't have a tank. You have some folks who are going to put out great damage, but can't really afford to get hit. As long as you and the Wizard work together to create situations for your damage based party members (Rogue, Ranger, and sometimes Monk), you guys will come out ahead. These are the considerations I've made before suggesting this spell list to you.

Faerie Fire, Healing Word.
Shatter, Invisibility, xxx, xxx.
Hypnotic Pattern, xxx.

Faerie Fire, Shatter, and Hypnotic Pattern have all been chosen because they provide three great things expected from ranged magical support. You can make attack rolls go better with Faerie Fire, plus likely not hit them as Faerie Fire is an AOE spell that's easy to cast in an area that misses your allies. You can throw down a bit of guaranteed aoe damage with Shatter (nice to throw on top of whatever aoe damage a Wizard wants to throw). And you can effectively end an encounter with Hypnotic Pattern. All three of these aoe spells hit a different save (Dex, Con, and Wis respectively). Your party will also look to you as a Bard to occasionally throw Healing Words, Bardic Inspirations, and Cutting Words. Congratulations, you have now achieved usefulness in 90 percent of combats you'll ever experience.

I've added Invisibility to this list as you seem to have quite a few types who could get a pretty big benefit out of having Invisibility. This is both for out of combat utility for potentially anyone and in-combat escapes for yourself (Cast Invisibility on yourself when surrounded, leave attack range, no opportunity attacks as they can't see you). Being able to escape as a Lore Bard is pretty nice, as they lack any real skills to get of melee once they're there. It sucks that it takes away your concentration, but living is better then dying.

I see a bunch of people advocating for Heat Metal. It's a great spell, it absolutely is, when you can use it. I've played two Bards from levels 1-12, and kept it on the characters' spell list out of stubbornness, and have never had a chance to use it over some other spell in combat. If you still feel you should take it, go for it.

As for the 3 final spell choices, these will ultimately be up to you. I'd urge you to not take combat choices here. While combat is important to the game, you already have quite a few choices in regards to what you're doing when it comes to combat. I would look to spells that can change how you play up social/exploration/investigation encounters. Examples of spells I'd consider in the second level spot: Detect Thoughts, Enhance Ability, Lesser Restoration, Silence, and Suggestion. Each of these spells has fantastic out of combat utility, and will bring flavor to the character. Given a choice from here though, I'd definitely pick up Lesser Restoration for your party, as you don't have a consistent person around who can deal with status effects. Speaking of flavor, if that's what we're talking about, these are 1st level spells I'd consider for flavor: Comprehend Languages, Disguise Self, Feather Fall, Silent Image, and Unseen Servant. As for third level spells, I'd consider these: Dispel magic, Leomund's Tiny Hut, Major Image, Plant Growth, and Tongues. Dispel magic would be my go to here, as Bards are some of the best users of the Dispel Magic spell in the game.
TLDR; Revamp your spell list completely. Play a magical support along-side the Wizard for your damage-based party. Take these spells to assist in controlling of the enemy and buffing of your allies.

1st. Faerie Fire, Healing Word.
2nd. Shatter, Invisibility, Lesser Restoration, xxx.
3rd. Hypnotic Pattern, Dispel Magic.

Choose whatever you want for that last 2nd level (or 1st) spell.

mormon_soldier

2017-11-21, 05:42 PM

I went with heat metal; my valor bard's flaw is challenging people to duels, so I wanted a way to escape. It also has a different save from Thunder Wave, my other aoe.

Kintar

2017-11-21, 08:19 PM

If your DM rolls in the open, hold person is nice. If they roll behind the screen, it’s not worth preparing.

krugaan

2017-11-21, 08:23 PM

Silence is golden for killing patrols ... er, silently.

Finger6842

2017-11-21, 09:18 PM

Silence is golden for killing patrols ... er, silently.

I personally love the silence spell. Unfortunately, every DM I've ever played with will move the character out of the area of effect and then blast me with spell x. The radius is only 20 feet, most characters move 25 feet or more, and every one of them seems to know exactly which direction to move in so they can clear the affected area. I think the spell may have a visible area of effect, it's uncanny.

Quoxis

2017-11-22, 02:16 AM

I personally love the silence spell. Unfortunately, every DM I've ever played with will move the character out of the area of effect and then blast me with spell x. The radius is only 20 feet, most characters move 25 feet or more, and every one of them seems to know exactly which direction to move in so they can clear the affected area. I think the spell may have a visible area of effect, it's uncanny.

Have the party brute grapple them then, or restrain them otherwise (difficult terrain, certain spells by other party members...). No movement out of silence is pretty debilitating for most spellcasters, if they don't happen to be at-will-teleporters or sorcerers with a subtle misty step.

krugaan

2017-11-22, 03:40 AM