NPCs that can take a beating

[SpamCreateWater]

I've been asked to create some way, way into the future upcoming NPCs.
I've gone down the "can take a beating" route after looking at Monk of the Long Death and Shadow Sorcerer.

I would like opinions what I've come up with and if there's anything that I've overlooked.

Aims:

Level 18 or under.
NPCs need to be hard to kill via HP damage. High AC/Saves obviously help, but the players seem to have gone HP damage to kill route.
They don't need to focus on offense - think "burn" phases from MMOs. They need to be killed within a certain time period and will do their hardest to not be.


Note that these NPCs will be facing 6+ PCs either alone with environmental advantage/critters or together. We can go a little bit ridiculous with how tanky they are.

Additional question: I'm sure I read that if someone takes more damage than they have of (remaining HP + Constitution score) then they automatically die with no save. Is this true?
EDIT: Answered by Contrast. Thank you.

Instant death is when damage takes you to zero and theres enough damage left over to exceed your maximum hit points. Typically only relevant for low level characters.


STR 08 / DEX 13 / CON 20 / INT 10 / WIS 12 / CHA 16

Important bits

Strength of the Grave (Shadow Sorcerer 1): CON Save (DC5+damage taken) damage reduces you to 0HP. Success and you drop to 1HP. Cannot use this ability if damage is radiant or from a critical.
Wearing Adamantine armour (I believe this gives immunity to critical hits?)
Mastery of Death (Monk of the Long Death 11): 1 ki point to avoid a killing blow. Drop to 1 HP instead of 0 HP. No action required.
Aura of Protection (Paladin 6): Add CHA to saves
Lucky feat
CON save is +14.


This character, every time they die due to HP damage, makes a CON save of 5+ damage taken to not die. They have a +14 CON.
If they fail this or are hit by radiant damage they can spend a ki point to not die.
They also have 3 rerolls.

Depending on playtests the DM and I were looking at a way to get immunity to radiant damage. Trading out Monk 6 immunity to damage and disease for immunity to radiant damage. Thoughts? Remember they may very well be facing 6+ PCs.




STR 12 / DEX 20 / CON 14 / INT 10 / WIS 16 / CHA 08

Important bits

Strength of the Grave (Shadow Sorcerer 1): CON Save (DC5+damage taken) damage reduces you to 0HP. Success and you drop to 1HP. Cannot use this ability if damage is radiant or from a critical.
Mastery of Death (Monk of the Long Death 11): 1 ki point to avoid a killing blow. Drop to 1 HP instead of 0 HP. No action required.
CON save is +8.
Unarmoured AC of 18. Can use reaction to gain +6 due to Defensive Duelist feat.
Monk 14 gives proficiency to saves for 7 / 11 / 8 / 6 / 9 / 5.
Can reroll a failed save.
Can Dash + Disengage as a bonus action. With Monk this gives huge movement speed.


This character, every time they die due to HP damage, makes a CON save of 5+ damage taken to not die. They have a +8 CON.
If they fail this or are hit by radiant damage they can spend a ki point to not die.
Using Tumble they have 110ft movement speed and don't cause attacks of opportunity.
Bard 3 for spells.




STR 12 / DEX 14 / CON 19 / INT 08 / WIS 14 / CHA 10

Important bits

Rage gives resistance to ALL damage bar psychic damage.
Wildshape is essentially another health pool.
Has base health of 227 (Toughness, Hill Dwarf give +3/lvl)
CON save is +10.
Dwarf Resilience to heal a HD whenever using Dodge.
Durable to heal a minimum of CON*2.
Can Dash + Disengage as a bonus action. With Monk this gives huge movement speed.


This character just has a lot of health, with an over time healing ability in Dwarf Resilience.
Note that I don't want to go Druid 18 for spellcasting while wildshaped.

I believe boar, or greater boar, has an ability to ignore damage that puts you below 1HP if it is only a tiny amount of damage?

Haven't chosen whether to go Moon or Land Druid... or some other variant that's out there.
A +1 CON item/tome would be brilliant, but cannot rely on it.


No spells or backgrounds have been taken into consideration for these builds. So let me know if something fits one of these.

There are a few abilities I looked at that I haven't used: Samurai's physical resistance (seems redundant with Barbarian... unless a spellcaster); Holy Aura spell; Circle of Power spell; Foresight spell; Armour of Agathys.

[Contrast]

Instant death is when damage takes you to zero and theres enough damage left over to exceed your maximum hit points. Typically only relevant for low level characters.

I'd also point out NPCs don't need to follow the rules for PCs. Feel free to mix and match. If you want to make direct HP damage less relevant there are a number of ways - find a reason to make them fight creatures who are incorporeal until the party achieves <objective> for example.

I am reminded of an encounter in the Baldurs Gate video game with a wizard who got trapped in a machine create by a mad mage. He was immortal while inside and the machine was impenetrable and he would use the machine to randomly summon monsters and magical effects to alleviate his boredom. The party needed to find a specific magical hammer with which to smash the machine and stop him.

[Specter]

Ancients Paladin. 21AC, resistance to magical damage, +CHA to saves... all of this at level 7. What else could you want?

[Quoxis]

Undead nightmare
Half-orc undying warlock (6+)-bear barbarian (3+)-bard (1+).
Focus on Dex and con for high AC, saves and hp. Dump str and int.
Cast armor of agathys for temp hp, rage for resistence to about everything (which essentially doubles how long aoa will last - and your opponents still take damage with each of their hits in melee), when you go down use your half-orc feature to stand up again, heal yourself (using bard spell with warlock slot), rage again, when you go down again grant yourself a bonus on the death saving throw with bardic inspiration, then when you make the save you get instant healing by the undying feature (1d8+con), and heal yourself again using spells or potions.

This is by no means optimized or anything, even i say it's a min-maxer's bull****, but i imagine it to be incredibly frustrating to fight. "WHY - WON'T - YOU - STAY - DEAD!"

Obviously long death monks can stand up multiple times more, but they lack a self healing factor.
Also: this build penalizes you for attacking as long as aoa is intact. You rarely get hit even though you may not even wear armor, and when you do you got temp hp to boot.


Ice king
The ultimate wall build - and it's mostly a wizard!
Fighter 1 - fey warlock 1 - abjuration wizard x
Focus on con, then dex or str to taste.
Wear heavy armor, cast armor of agathys with the highest wizard spell slot you have available (at 9th level it adds 45 temp hp and getting hit does the same amount of damage to the attacker!), and as an abjuration spell, aoa triggers the abjurers ward - which is basically armor that buffers hp, but doesn't count as temporary hp. That way an opponent has to first roll high enough to hit you (with defensive spells like shield, blur, mirror image etc. you can make that even more impossible), and if they do they first have to hack their way through your ward before taking down your icy spike armor of agathys, and only then they get the chance to hit you.
Consider this: you have a base AC of 20 (plate armor + shield), which can be heigthened or otherwise improved by spells (stone skin for resistence, mirror image, blur...), up to 45 temporary hp and a buffer of 2 times your wizard level + your int mod (maximum 41) before your actual hp get scratched. You have to look out for saving throw effects, but no weapon will be able to kill you in real combat.

[tieren]

Yuanti Pureblood Sea Sorceror - resistance to all magic, B/P/S, and fire, immunity to poison. Half damage from OA's, free movement with no OA's, etc...

[Bloodcloud]

Infernal warlock, using lots of disposable minions and a wand of fireball indiscriminately. He heals as he murders his minion.

[Quoxis]

Infernal warlock, using lots of disposable minions and a wand of fireball indiscriminately. He heals as he murders his minion.

That's evil and ironically quite fitting for a demon warlock.

[Corran]

Ancients Paladin. 21AC, resistance to magical damage, +CHA to saves... all of this at level 7. What else could you want?
1 level of shadow sorcerer and resilient con would pair well with this.

@OP: You might want to have a look at this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?524537-Can-We-Make-An-Immortal-Sorcerer&highlight=immortal) thread.

[JackPhoenix]

I don't see any NPC in this thread, only a bunch of PC character builds. Look up at the expected defenses for the appropriate CR, then use higher defensive CR at the cost of lower offensive CR to end up with whatever average value you need (you've already mentioned the enemy doesn't need to have great offensive power).

For a CR 18 creature, DMG indicated defenses should consist of AC 19 and 326-340 hp. At this CR, damage resistances doesn't even modify the resulting defensive CR value. Add magic resistance of legendary resistance if you're worried about spells. Saves apparently doesn't play a role in defensive CR, but you should still keep them at the usual proficiency + ability mod value.

DMG 273+

[Quoxis]

I don't see any NPC in this thread, only a bunch of PC character builds. Look up at the expected defenses for the appropriate CR, then use higher defensive CR at the cost of lower offensive CR to end up with whatever average value you need (you've already mentioned the enemy doesn't need to have great offensive power).

For a CR 18 creature, DMG indicated defenses should consist of AC 19 and 326-340 hp. At this CR, damage resistances doesn't even modify the resulting defensive CR value. Add magic resistance of legendary resistance if you're worried about spells. Saves apparently doesn't play a role in defensive CR, but you should still keep them at the usual proficiency + ability mod value.

DMG 273+

While this is a helpful and correct answer, it's not what the OP was asking for.
1) he was talking about "level", not CR
2) he was bringing up his own PC-like character builds. An NPC built with phb rules is still an NPC, and the given examples suggest he's looking for more tough builds in that style. That's why everyone is posting PC builds - it's what we were asked to post.

[Sigreid]

Shadow monk with a 2 level dip in warlock for devil's sight in a large room with lots of shadowy areas.

[MaxWilson]

Ancients Paladin. 21AC, resistance to magical damage, +CHA to saves... all of this at level 7. What else could you want?

Well, resistance to damage from spells anyway. Breath weapons, conjured monsters, magical weapons, beholder eye rays, etc. will still do full damage. Ancients' aura is good against PCs, Flameskulls, and archmages/liches, and that's pretty much it. (It would technically help you against a Pit Fiend's Fireball, but how often do Pit Fiends waste time casting Fireball when they do so much more damage with attacks? Only against mobs--and the mobs will probably still die despite the aura.)

Fortunately, the NPCs in question are needed to fight PCs. :)

[Sir cryosin]

I would go with druid circle of Shepherd with a few Awaken trees and a wood wart then summon giant owls or what ever you want. Next is a paladin OOA magic res , high AC, smite. Last bladesinger wizard keeps back and use spells only needing to melee at last resort.

[SpamCreateWater]

I don't see any NPC in this thread, only a bunch of PC character builds.

Unless I have been seriously misled on these forums an NPC is a Non-Player Character. A character not played by a player, but by the DM. How it is built is irrelevant.
If I have been misled as to the meaning of NPC, please let me know.

This point is mostly moot, though. Because whether or not I've been misled the characters posted will be played by the DM. They will use "PC character builds".



While this is a helpful and correct answer, it's not what the OP was asking for.
1) he was talking about "level", not CR
2) he was bringing up his own PC-like character builds. An NPC built with phb rules is still an NPC, and the given examples suggest he's looking for more tough builds in that style. That's why everyone is posting PC builds - it's what we were asked to post.

I will agree that people are being varying degrees of helpful and correct; however, there seems to be some confusion as to what I'm asking.

What I asked for was:

I would like opinions what I've come up with and if there's anything that I've overlooked.


With a side of:

Additional question: I'm sure I read that if someone takes more damage than they have of (remaining HP + Constitution score) then they automatically die with no save. Is this true?

Depending on playtests the DM and I were looking at a way to get immunity to radiant damage. Trading out Monk 6 immunity to damage and disease for immunity to radiant damage. Thoughts? Remember they may very well be facing 6+ PCs.

No spells or backgrounds have been taken into consideration for these builds. So let me know if something fits one of these.



Note that I do appreciate the ideas for other builds. Please, keep them coming - preferably with some explanation of what it does and how it does it.

Edit: Special thanks to Quoxis for their explanation of these two interesting builds.

Undead nightmare
Half-orc undying warlock (6+)-bear barbarian (3+)-bard (1+).
Focus on Dex and con for high AC, saves and hp. Dump str and int.
Cast armor of agathys for temp hp, rage for resistence to about everything (which essentially doubles how long aoa will last - and your opponents still take damage with each of their hits in melee), when you go down use your half-orc feature to stand up again, heal yourself (using bard spell with warlock slot), rage again, when you go down again grant yourself a bonus on the death saving throw with bardic inspiration, then when you make the save you get instant healing by the undying feature (1d8+con), and heal yourself again using spells or potions.

This is by no means optimized or anything, even i say it's a min-maxer's bull****, but i imagine it to be incredibly frustrating to fight. "WHY - WON'T - YOU - STAY - DEAD!"

Obviously long death monks can stand up multiple times more, but they lack a self healing factor.
Also: this build penalizes you for attacking as long as aoa is intact. You rarely get hit even though you may not even wear armor, and when you do you got temp hp to boot.


Ice king
The ultimate wall build - and it's mostly a wizard!
Fighter 1 - fey warlock 1 - abjuration wizard x
Focus on con, then dex or str to taste.
Wear heavy armor, cast armor of agathys with the highest wizard spell slot you have available (at 9th level it adds 45 temp hp and getting hit does the same amount of damage to the attacker!), and as an abjuration spell, aoa triggers the abjurers ward - which is basically armor that buffers hp, but doesn't count as temporary hp. That way an opponent has to first roll high enough to hit you (with defensive spells like shield, blur, mirror image etc. you can make that even more impossible), and if they do they first have to hack their way through your ward before taking down your icy spike armor of agathys, and only then they get the chance to hit you.
Consider this: you have a base AC of 20 (plate armor + shield), which can be heigthened or otherwise improved by spells (stone skin for resistence, mirror image, blur...), up to 45 temporary hp and a buffer of 2 times your wizard level + your int mod (maximum 41) before your actual hp get scratched. You have to look out for saving throw effects, but no weapon will be able to kill you in real combat.

[Quoxis]

Edit: Special thanks to Quoxis for their explanation of these two interesting builds.


>makes humble bowing gesture<

Another possible build would be a variation of the ice king, just replace fighter and wizard with druid (you can in exchange level warlock a little higher, even up to getting a pact at lvl 3, though in your specific case you'll want to get 9th-level spells at lvl 18, so warlock 1/druid 17 is better). AoA and wildshape are beastly (pun intended), as the temp hp get on top of those of your new beast form, potentially prolonging it (also dinosaurs with ice spikes are awesome) and the on-hit damage to attackers makes you a fierce melee combattant. Note that wildshaped druids can keep concentration, so additional defensive spells (stone skin?) are still an option as with the ice king.

Another (rather well-known) mc is the druid-barbarian. Moon druid, wildshape, rage (best coupled with bear totem for resistence to about anything) makes for stronger attacks as well as basically twice the durability of your wildshape.

Also, as both of these builds are melee-oriented and have little ranged options you might want to invest in the sentinel feat to keep them close.

[SpamCreateWater]

>makes humble bowing gesture<

Another possible build would be a variation of the ice king, just replace fighter and wizard with druid (you can in exchange level warlock a little higher, even up to getting a pact at lvl 3, though in your specific case you'll want to get 9th-level spells at lvl 18, so warlock 1/druid 17 is better). AoA and wildshape are beastly (pun intended), as the temp hp get on top of those of your new beast form, potentially prolonging it (also dinosaurs with ice spikes are awesome) and the on-hit damage to attackers makes you a fierce melee combattant. Note that wildshaped druids can keep concentration, so additional defensive spells (stone skin?) are still an option as with the ice king.

Another (rather well-known) mc is the druid-barbarian. Moon druid, wildshape, rage (best coupled with bear totem for resistence to about anything) makes for stronger attacks as well as basically twice the durability of your wildshape.

Also, as both of these builds are melee-oriented and have little ranged options you might want to invest in the sentinel feat to keep them close.

I'm liking Druid/Warlock. Can't believe I hadn't thought of it. Thank you.

Druid/ Bear Totem Barbarian is one of the three builds originally posted. It is coupled with Dwarf Resilience, Durable, and 20 CON for mundane self heals when Dodging.

[CursedRhubarb]

I'd recommend taking a look at the Zealot Barbarian.

A Character Lvl 18 Human Variant with Resilient Wisdom Zealot would be a very rough opponent. Unending rage, resistance to non magic weapons, immune to death while raging, 6 rages, possible beefy AC, +3 die on crits, con save to deny dropping to 0hp, and Resilient Wis makes it more likely to pass those CC abilities, and if one does make it, can end it's rage to end the CC then rage again next turn if still has some HP It'd be tough to bring down simply because HP pretty much doesn't matter. It will be if they can get a CC through after wearing it down or can burn it before the CC ends.

[Kane0]

STR 12 / DEX 14 / CON 19 / INT 08 / WIS 14 / CHA 10

Important bits

Rage gives resistance to ALL damage bar psychic damage.
Wildshape is essentially another health pool.
Has base health of 227 (Toughness, Hill Dwarf give +3/lvl)
CON save is +10.
Dwarf Resilience to heal a HD whenever using Dodge.
Durable to heal a minimum of CON*2.
Can Dash + Disengage as a bonus action. With Monk this gives huge movement speed.


This character just has a lot of health, with an over time healing ability in Dwarf Resilience.
Note that I don't want to go Druid 18 for spellcasting while wildshaped.

I believe boar, or greater boar, has an ability to ignore damage that puts you below 1HP if it is only a tiny amount of damage?

Haven't chosen whether to go Moon or Land Druid... or some other variant that's out there.
A +1 CON item/tome would be brilliant, but cannot rely on it.



Wouldn't Barb 8 / Druid 10 or Barb 3 / Druid 10 / Rogue 5 be better?
You only need Moon Druid 10 for elemental forms, and i'm guessing you're not going to be doing too much casting between rage and wildshapes. The first option gives more HP and an extra ASI and the second nets you uncanny dodge to take even less damage, especially if you're not worried about attacking.

[SpamCreateWater]

I'd recommend taking a look at the Zealot Barbarian.

A Character Lvl 18 Human Variant with Resilient Wisdom Zealot would be a very rough opponent. Unending rage, resistance to non magic weapons, immune to death while raging, 6 rages, possible beefy AC, +3 die on crits, con save to deny dropping to 0hp, and Resilient Wis makes it more likely to pass those CC abilities, and if one does make it, can end it's rage to end the CC then rage again next turn if still has some HP It'd be tough to bring down simply because HP pretty much doesn't matter. It will be if they can get a CC through after wearing it down or can burn it before the CC ends.

I will look into it. Thank you for your input.


Wouldn't Barb 8 / Druid 10 or Barb 3 / Druid 10 / Rogue 5 be better?
You only need Moon Druid 10 for elemental forms, and i'm guessing you're not going to be doing too much casting between rage and wildshapes. The first option gives more HP and an extra ASI and the second nets you uncanny dodge to take even less damage, especially if you're not worried about attacking.

This is what I'm after! Thanks!
I've only just finished up a Rogue build for another idea, but never thought of going Rogue 5 for the tank.
I hadn't decided on Moon or Land because I was under the impression that Wild Shape's advantage was greatly lessened during mid levels. To be honest I haven't had the inclination to look through Wild Shape choices, but on this advice I may move it up a little on the list :smallsmile:

[furby076]

I'

Depending on playtests the DM and I were looking at a way to get immunity to radiant damage. Trading out Monk 6 immunity to damage and disease for immunity to radiant damage. Thoughts? Remember they may very well be facing 6+ PCs

No on this one. While a dm can do whatever they want, cherry picking class abilities to remove weaknesses is just flat out cheating. If you want your npc to have resistance to radiant damage then get them a magic item or spell that grants this protection (potion, scroll, wand, etc). Otherwise, screw adding a class, and choose the random abilities you want to give them.

remember, d&d isnt WOW. Heck, in the middle of combat, in WOW, you are regaining hp, magic points, action bar, etc during combat. That doesnt happen in d&d

[MrStabby]

Whilst I get that you want a PC style, the question about how willing to bend the rules or homebrew is a legitimate one.

The strict interpretation has been well covered. If you are willing to bend the rules somewhat I would suggest an arcane monk based losely on the 4 elements monk but with abilities swapped out.

Spells to be shield, misty step, counterspell, invisibility and others to keep the character safe.

[SpamCreateWater]

No on this one. While a dm can do whatever they want, cherry picking class abilities to remove weaknesses is just flat out cheating. If you want your npc to have resistance to radiant damage then get them a magic item or spell that grants this protection (potion, scroll, wand, etc). Otherwise, screw adding a class, and choose the random abilities you want to give them.

remember, d&d isnt WOW. Heck, in the middle of combat, in WOW, you are regaining hp, magic points, action bar, etc during combat. That doesnt happen in d&d

What you call "flat out cheating", others call house rules or homebrew. Altering one ability to fit a character concept is entirely different from throwing out everything; there's no need to exaggerate the issue.

There is no way that I am aware of to get immunity to radiant damage - the build already has resistance to radiant damage. In fact, one of the earlier iterations of the build had resistance to radiant damage from 2 or 3 different sources; this idea came about while spitballing how to remove redundancy. The idea stuck as the build continued to morph and the character behind the build developed.

I'm not entirely sure why you commented on WoW. Yes, I mentioned MMOs as an example for what people should visualise; however, your comment doesn't seem to correlate with anything else in your post.


Whilst I get that you want a PC style, the question about how willing to bend the rules or homebrew is a legitimate one.

The strict interpretation has been well covered. If you are willing to bend the rules somewhat I would suggest an arcane monk based losely on the 4 elements monk but with abilities swapped out.

Spells to be shield, misty step, counterspell, invisibility and others to keep the character safe.

It may be a legitimate one, but it's really not as bad as it has been made out to be.

I've not looked sideways at the 4 Elements Monk. The few times it's been mentioned the tone has been derisive.

[MrStabby]

What you call "flat out cheating", others call house rules or homebrew. Altering one ability to fit a character concept is entirely different from throwing out everything; there's no need to exaggerate the issue.

There is no way that I am aware of to get immunity to radiant damage - the build already has resistance to radiant damage. In fact, one of the earlier iterations of the build had resistance to radiant damage from 2 or 3 different sources; this idea came about while spitballing how to remove redundancy. The idea stuck as the build continued to morph and the character behind the build developed.

I'm not entirely sure why you commented on WoW. Yes, I mentioned MMOs as an example for what people should visualise; however, your comment doesn't seem to correlate with anything else in your post.



It may be a legitimate one, but it's really not as bad as it has been made out to be.

I've not looked sideways at the 4 Elements Monk. The few times it's been mentioned the tone has been derisive.

The 4 elements monk's main problem is that it's abilities are to use an action to do damage so it heavily overlaps/competes with the core class abilities. Swapping elemental spells that compete with core abilities for spells that compliment them should make it stronger.

[SpamCreateWater]

The 4 elements monk's main problem is that it's abilities are to use an action to do damage so it heavily overlaps/competes with the core class abilities. Swapping elemental spells that compete with core abilities for spells that compliment them should make it stronger.

Interesting. I was always a fan of Pathfinder's Qinggong Monk archetype, or any archetype that allowed the Monk to have (very) limited 'spellcasting'. It's an excellent concept and I hope it can be realised in 5e.

I think I will go play around with this Monk Path and, if we find it to be underwhelming, I'll put forth your idea and try it out again.

Thank you.

[Theoboldi]

I have nothing useful to add in regards to builds, but out of curiosity, is there any particular reason you want to build these NPCs like you would PCs? It just seems a little odd to go through all that trouble if you're willing to just homebrew useful and necessary abilities onto them anyways. :smallconfused:

Not saying it's bad, of course, since you clearly are having a lot of fun with the theorycrafting at least. Just wondering if that's the whole reason for it.

[Lombra]

You can't make an elegantly sturdy NPC that can threaten an high level party by himself. I suggest to not use class levels. Get inspiration fron high level monsters and NPCs to decide caster level, HPs and modifiers, decide the flavour and build around it eith what makes sense for the character, not for the rules.
Ultimately, to make it work against multiple opponents give it either legendary actions or lair actions, 6 rounds of beating are too much for anything without such things.
It's good to have class-based ideas, but I'd advise to use them just for concepts, PvP is really not good (read: fun) especially at high levels.
If legendary/lair actions are not your thing consider periodical summons like the ones of some devils.

[SpamCreateWater]

I have nothing useful to add in regards to builds, but out of curiosity, is there any particular reason you want to build these NPCs like you would PCs? It just seems a little odd to go through all that trouble if you're willing to just homebrew useful and necessary abilities onto them anyways. :smallconfused:

Not saying it's bad, of course, since you clearly are having a lot of fun with the theorycrafting at least. Just wondering if that's the whole reason for it.

There is one homebrewed ability that came about due to a discussion on redundancy - a discussion that was done in conjunction with the DM. I don't go out and make up abilities willy-nilly. I don't see why people jump to this assumption that I'm rewriting reality, changing the rules of the game, and therefore should do away with classes.

But yes, I enjoy building characters (NPCs or PCs) using classes available :smallsmile: The DM, knowing this, asked if I wanted to build some late game NPCs. This may be a holdover from 3.5 or purely my own experiences with NPCs, but I've always built them with class levels.


You can't make an elegantly sturdy NPC that can threaten an high level party by himself. I suggest to not use class levels. Get inspiration fron high level monsters and NPCs to decide caster level, HPs and modifiers, decide the flavour and build around it eith what makes sense for the character, not for the rules.
Ultimately, to make it work against multiple opponents give it either legendary actions or lair actions, 6 rounds of beating are too much for anything without such things.
It's good to have class-based ideas, but I'd advise to use them just for concepts, PvP is really not good (read: fun) especially at high levels.
If legendary/lair actions are not your thing consider periodical summons like the ones of some devils.

As I said in my first post, they will either be "alone with environmental advantage/critters" or "together". This means that they either have advantages that offset the fact that it's 1v6 (traps for example); they will have multiple critters (so not alone); or they'll have the other tanky NPCs (so not alone).
I also said that "they don't need to focus on offense" and mentioned "'burn' phases from MMOs". Essentially this boils down to the encounter most likely being timed - where the party has to take down the character within a time frame. They'll be hindered, of course, because who wants to stand there and mob someone for 6+ turns? Where's the fun in that?

This leads in to your suggestions. I was aware of Legendary actions, but don't know too much on Lair actions - as far as I'm concerned, though, these are currently not issues for me. More likely than not they'll never be issues for me as the DM will be the one creating the scenario. In any case, you specifically calling the actions out makes me realise I should read up on the actions to understand them properly. So, thank you for that.

I don't understand where the thought that this will be PvP comes from :smallconfused: Like, I am genuinely flabbergasted. I have asserted from the thread title onwards that these are NPCs. Can you please tell me what I have written that gave you this impression?



Is 5e so far removed from 3.5 that it's unfathomable for DMs to build NPCs using actual class levels without the thought that it's bad-wrong-fun? (By actual I mean NOT 3.5 Commoner and Warrior)

[Lombra]

As I said in my first post, they will either be "alone with environmental advantage/critters" or "together". This means that they either have advantages that offset the fact that it's 1v6 (traps for example); they will have multiple critters (so not alone); or they'll have the other tanky NPCs (so not alone).
I also said that "they don't need to focus on offense" and mentioned "'burn' phases from MMOs". Essentially this boils down to the encounter most likely being timed - where the party has to take down the character within a time frame. They'll be hindered, of course, because who wants to stand there and mob someone for 6+ turns? Where's the fun in that?

This leads in to your suggestions. I was aware of Legendary actions, but don't know too much on Lair actions - as far as I'm concerned, though, these are currently not issues for me. More likely than not they'll never be issues for me as the DM will be the one creating the scenario. In any case, you specifically calling the actions out makes me realise I should read up on the actions to understand them properly. So, thank you for that.

I don't understand where the thought that this will be PvP comes from :smallconfused: Like, I am genuinely flabbergasted. I have asserted from the thread title onwards that these are NPCs. Can you please tell me what I have written that gave you this impression?



Is 5e so far removed from 3.5 that it's unfathomable for DMs to build NPCs using actual class levels without the thought that it's bad-wrong-fun? (By actual I mean NOT 3.5 Commoner and Warrior)

Oh ok I thought that you were looking for a mainly solo boss, but open to minor helps from minions and such.

Lair Actions are basically Legendary Actions but are available to the monster/npc only if he is wothin a certain distancr from his Lair.

I addressed PvP because the classes are designed to be player characters and don't really fit against each others since they are all designed to cooperate with the party, so it's exactly the same experience as doing PvP, player class vs player class, and it doesn't work out well, or not as well as a specifically designed NPC with the DMG rules. Not having to stock to PHB classes allows you to fit in things that are thematically correct without mich effort, while being restrained by a class may make it difficult.

[SpamCreateWater]

Oh ok I thought that you were looking for a mainly solo boss, but open to minor helps from minions and such.

Lair Actions are basically Legendary Actions but are available to the monster/npc only if he is wothin a certain distancr from his Lair.

I addressed PvP because the classes are designed to be player characters and don't really fit against each others since they are all designed to cooperate with the party, so it's exactly the same experience as doing PvP, player class vs player class, and it doesn't work out well, or not as well as a specifically designed NPC with the DMG rules. Not having to stock to PHB classes allows you to fit in things that are thematically correct without mich effort, while being restrained by a class may make it difficult.

It is no problem :smallsmile:

Mmm. From what I've seen I like the Legendary (and Lair) action rules. There's just certain characters that need that extra push because they are truly epic.

I think I understand what you're saying, but I have to disagree with pretty much everything.

The classes have abilities that allow them to cooperate, yes; but they can cooperate with their own allies as easily when being run by the DM as they could if run by a player within a party.
PvP means Player vs Player. Even in the context of D&D - check every forum mentioning PvP ever - it's Player (that is not the DM) vs Player (that is not the DM); and not Player Class (run by Player) vs Player Class (run by DM).
The DMG specifically calls out using classes in the PHB for NPCs and monsters.
I don't think "because it's harder" is a reason to not use a rule set. Constraints drive ingenuity and inspiration; and I, as said above, enjoy creating characters using these rules.

[Kane0]

By the way if you want a good benchmark try a level 18 Hill Dwarf Champion Fighter using these feats: Tough, Heavy Armor Mastery and optionally Dwarven Resilience, Durable and Resilient (Wisdom).

20 Con, solid AC, high HP with regeneration and reduces 3 damage from every hit taken. Dwarven resilience also lets him both dodge and heal some extra with a single action if he isn't bothered with attacking. Then you have Action surge, Indomitable, Second Wind and Defense Fighting Style to round things out on top of that.

If you can bulid something that improves on that you're doing well.