How to use druid's animal shape in combat

[King of Nowhere]

there's na way a primary spellcaster like ye can survive in melee combat fer long if'n he hadn't prepared fer it
turns into huge bear
ah, right. Druid. Ne'er mind, then (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0353.html)


At least that's the theory. When trying to apply that principle to gaming sessions, it didn't work. I've seen that animal shape is extremely vulnerable; the druid is limited to animals with no more hd than he has, so he only gain hit points based on CON boosts; on the down side, he loses a crapload of AC because protective items and armor stop working, meaning that whatever is gained in hit points is offset by giving the foe the chance to power attack (he also loses CON-boosting items, so even that source of hit points is relative). Plus taking animal shape is one standard action, and most combats last less than five rounds, losing one is a big deal. I am DMing a campaing (currently at level 10) with occasional druid foes and there is a druid in the party, and we never could find any use for wild shape in combat. Since everyone is saying druids are so OP, I figure we're doing something wrong, and I'd like to understand it.

[Necroticplague]

A lot of these problems seem to originate from one cause: you aren't starting battle Wild Shaped. Wild shape lasts an incredibly long time, and cheap magic items can mitigate downsides. No reason you can't unequip magic items, enter combat form, then re-equip magic items at the start of the day.

Of course, even without that, there's wilding clasps for items, and the Wild property for armor, so it shouldn't be too hard to keep everything relevant up in all forms. And for what you do lose, druids can just cast a buff spells to compensate. In fact, Wild Armor+ animal NA typically gives them the highest AC in the party.

[Bronk]

Some good advice can be found on the very next page...

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0354.html

... stay in wild shape form and use natural spell feat to cast spells. If AC is still a problem (after using wild armor and wilding clasps as well), take a flying form and cast from out of reach.

They can function though the day by using a pearl of speech from the MIC.

Now, where is the druid's animal companion during the fight? There are a number of powerful choices, especially in conjunction with the 'share spells' feature.

[Fouredged Sword]

Yeah, with a pearl of speech, wildclasps, and natural spell there is no reason to ever not be bear.

The main advantage of wild shape is that it replaces 2 of your stats completely. You have no reason to put points into strength or dex as you will be in a form replacing those stats. This allows a cleric to be Wis/Con sad to the extreme, meaning you should have lots of HP for no other reason than you have an 18 con. You can ether wild clasp a monk's belt or your armor, meaning you should have high AC.

[Elkad]

A Pearl of Power and an arcane buddy to share Mage Armor is far cheaper than a wildling clasp.
Probably your go-to option for a couple levels.

[Eldariel]

Don't forget Monk's Belt. It's supereffective later on, particularly with Owl's Insight [Spell Compendium] and Greater Luminous Armor [Book of Exalted Deeds]. Or Wild Armorfor that matter: as it melds you lose all the restrictions and just keep the AC bonus. Greater Mage Armor [SC] and Bracers/Vesy of Armor also work.

[Bebbit]

I really like the Monk's Belt over armor because you don't have to deal with any penalties. Also, while you can pay to get your armor's AC upgraded, you pay absolutely nothing extra once you but the Monk's Belt. The AC bonus just keeps going up as your Wis increases.

Also, one of its strongest selling points IMO is that the AC from the belt also applies to Touch AC and works while Flat-footed. Plus the bonus it gives stacks with both Armor and Natural Armor bonuses.

[eggynack]

At the outset, you don't gain or lose HP based on constitution boosts. Wild shape doesn't alter your HP (aside from the healing that takes place). Could be a downside if you're weirdly assuming that HD raises to match your form, but it might well be an upside, stopping those lower HD choices from hitting you in the face. That being said, there're lots of good ways to use wild shape in combat. The things listed thus far are good. Staying in wild shape, using a monk's belt, wilding clasps in general, the animal companion, luminous armor, and so on. Another important element is simple form selection. Brown/polar bear is nice and all, but you can do better than a 15 on the AC front. Dinosaurs are pretty classically great at this. Deinonychus offers 17 AC in core, and the fleshraker gets you all the way to 20, both at medium. At large, something like a cave ankylosaurus can do well with 24 AC. Alternatively, you can go more offensive than a brown bear as well. Pounce forms, including a variety of big cats and, again, the fleshraker, can provide pretty solid damage offerings. And, in all of these cases, a buff spell like bite of the werebear or its other level'd cousins can help on both offense and defense.

Alternatively, you could just not do any of that. Hitting enemies in the face directly with tooth and claw is good, but it's not the only or even necessarily the best way to use wild shape in combat. Take a high AC flying form (still likely using the monk's belt and luminous armor from before), preferably one with good maneuverability so you get hover, remain in that form all day, fly some distance above combatants, and let loose the pile of spells you would use otherwise, all while your animal companion beats face on the ground, taking advantage of those encounter changing spells. Desmodu hunting bat is the classic creature here, its high dexterity giving it both AC and initiative, but there's other options out there. Especially if you're picking up something like dragon wild shape at 12th (cause I can only assume that neither aberration nor exalted were gained at 9th). Mercury dragons, with their 250 ft. (good) movement speed and 24-26 AC are pretty sweet at this be far away plan, and dragons in general can offer a variety of neat defenses.

[Twurps]

Yeah, I'd have to second the desmodu hunting bat as a great form early on, not only for combat, but for regular adventuring. If something happens, either you have time to prepare, and can take bear/cat/dyno form if it suits you better. Or you can't prepare, meaning you're surprised, at which point reflex saves and initiative matter, And having +7 from dex alone on both without having to spend a single point of your point buy makes a huge difference. The flying and the higher (touch!)AC are just gravy at that point.

[King of Nowhere]

ok, so wild shape is not a "survive in melee if you hadn't prepared for it" card, but rather something that must be the focus of the whole build. also, pretty much everything you mentioned is not core, and we are mostly restricted to it (because we don't have manuals other than core and we're not the kind of minmaxers who would get all the books and read them all looking for advantages, not for any "DM banned this" reason. the "wild clasping" thing looks perfectly reasonable).

but the druid keeps his own hit points, good to know. So turning into a fast bird and flying away is still a viable option, that single attack of opportunity you'll take won't kill you.

[Necroticplague]

ok, so wild shape is not a "survive in melee if you hadn't prepared for it" card, but rather something that must be the focus of the whole build. also, pretty much everything you mentioned is not core, and we are mostly restricted to it (because we don't have manuals other than core and we're not the kind of minmaxers who would get all the books and read them all looking for advantages, not for any "DM banned this" reason. the "wild clasping" thing looks perfectly reasonable).

The wilding clasps and some of spells may not be Core, but a good chunk of the suggestions work Core too. Monks belt is core (lacking Clasps simply means putting it on ahead of time), Pearls of Powers like someone suggested are core, the buff spells a druid can use to compensate are Core, Wild Armor is Core, Natural Spell (so you don't need to exit Wild Shape ever) is Vore. While Pearl of Speech aren't core, the Medallion of Thought Projection is, and can substitute.

[Twurps]

ok, so wild shape is not a "survive in melee if you hadn't prepared for it" card, but rather something that must be the focus of the whole build. also, pretty much everything you mentioned is not core, and we are mostly restricted to it (because we don't have manuals other than core and we're not the kind of minmaxers who would get all the books and read them all looking for advantages, not for any "DM banned this" reason. the "wild clasping" thing looks perfectly reasonable).

but the druid keeps his own hit points, good to know. So turning into a fast bird and flying away is still a viable option, that single attack of opportunity you'll take won't kill you.

Taking 1 feat and buying appropriate equipment is hardly 'the focus of the whole build'. buying appropriate equipment is something that's relevant for every build (Wizards don't wear full-plate, fighters usually aren't the ones wielding the wands, Archers buy a bow, etc), and while your armor might cost you more, you won't need any weapons and you basically get a hefty stat boost for free saving money on stat boosting items. That just leaves the 1 feat investment. You still have all remaining feats, spells, skill-points and a familiar to devote to whatever else you want to achieve, supported by additional wild-shape forms if you want.

You could devote a significantly larger portion of your build to 1 or more strong combat forms, but it's not a necessity and might take away from the versatility that makes a druid T1. (although between it's daily customizable spells, and daily customizable wild shapes, a druids versatility is hard to mess up in any build)

[Goaty14]

While we talk about feats/magic items (like the monk's belt mentioned earlier) you could also take intuitive attack (Book of Exalted Deeds) to add your Wis mod to BaB

At level 8, the druid gains the ability to wild shape into a large-size animal, additionally, you can wildshape continuously for 24 hours before gaining 3 new uses of wild shape (Wild Shape duration is 1 hour/level, sometime before lvl 8, the druid gets Wild shape 3/day, and 3*8 = 24, this just provides you only need 1 form for the whole day, or you know what you DEFINITELY want to be before using your next use) Why do I say this? Because when you enter battle, you can already have wildshaped

Now for the reason this thread exists: How do you use wild shape as a druid to survive in combat?

Presuming you don't have natural spell, your best option is to utilize the special attacks and the like of your new form.

You can't go wrong with a bear. Bears have good attacks, grapple modifiers, strength, and brown bears have track as a feat.

As for surviving, most people would suggest a bird or some other flying animal, while this is not a bad idea, I personally would suggest a wolverine, medium creature, but a climb/burrow speed 10 ft, and rage when it gets damaged, and additionally can take 10 on climb, its easy to get creative with this creature, and enemies can't cast spells at you, or fire projectiles while you're underground.

[stanprollyright]

The wilding clasps and some of spells may not be Core, but a good chunk of the suggestions work Core too. Monks belt is core (lacking Clasps simply means putting it on ahead of time), Pearls of Powers like someone suggested are core, the buff spells a druid can use to compensate are Core, Wild Armor is Core, Natural Spell (so you don't need to exit Wild Shape ever) is Vore. While Pearl of Speech aren't core, the Medallion of Thought Projection is, and can substitute.

The wild enchantement is core.

[Deophaun]

Also, if you're wild shaping ahead of time, you can always get barding instead of armor and have someone help you put it on after you've beared up. Magic items can be similarly donned after wild shaping provided you retain the appropriate body slot.


Natural Spell (so you don't need to exit Wild Shape ever) is Vore.
Kinky.

[SirNibbles]

Why is combat only lasting five rounds? Is every combat just a blitzkrieg?

As others have said, start combat Wild Shaped.

The Wild armour/shield enchantment (Dungeon Master's Guide, page 219) allows your gear to continue providing an AC bonus.

[stanprollyright]

Why is combat only lasting five rounds? Is every combat just a blitzkrieg?

That seems pretty normal to me, actually. Rare is the combat that lasts 10 or more.

[Eldariel]

Don't forget your other buffs. In Core, Greater Magic Fang on all you natural weapons (one for all before level 8) and Barkskin as appropriate. 10 min/level is usually precastable where you are not surprised.

Generally I use large Cat forms. The Pounce+Rake alpha is huge and dead enemies can't hit back. In Core, Multiattacl may be worth picking up.

But ya, Natural Spell alone is all you need. As you stay Wildshaped all day, you should build equipment around that anyways. Level 8 the combat potential really picks off with Large forms and GMF +2. Also Wild Dragonhide Fullplate or Monk's Belt is affordable.å

[eggynack]

ok, so wild shape is not a "survive in melee if you hadn't prepared for it" card, but rather something that must be the focus of the whole build. also, pretty much everything you mentioned is not core, and we are mostly restricted to it (because we don't have manuals other than core and we're not the kind of minmaxers who would get all the books and read them all looking for advantages, not for any "DM banned this" reason. the "wild clasping" thing looks perfectly reasonable).
Ya didn't say it was core. At medium, you'd be a bit screwed on the desmodu hunting bat in core front, but this druid has access to large forms so dire bat does the job just fine. Same 20 AC, +6 to initiative, and 40 ft. (good) movement speed. Pick up natural spell, and you basically just have this entire strategy down, of being a defensive flying creature that isn't where the opponents are, and doing so all the time. Items are harder, but there're some accessible to a core druid that wants to always be in wild shape (and they probably do). Wild armor was mentioned, ioun stones are reasonable, and metamagic rods of extend spell at various levels are always pretty decent because you can cast the buffs when you're normal style and have them up all day. Prayer bead of karma is reasonable as a buff routine thing as well. And, as was also mentioned, I think you can equip items after changing form, so monk's belt might remain on the table. Also, just pointing this out, it's not like you actually have to read all the books on a quest for advantages. That's what my fancy handbook is for.

[Twurps]

While we talk about feats/magic items (like the monk's belt mentioned earlier) you could also take intuitive attack (Book of Exalted Deeds) to add your Wis mod to BaB

At level 8, the druid gains the ability to wild shape into a large-size animal, additionally, you can wildshape continuously for 24 hours before gaining 3 new uses of wild shape (Wild Shape duration is 1 hour/level, sometime before lvl 8, the druid gets Wild shape 3/day, and 3*8 = 24, this just provides you only need 1 form for the whole day, or you know what you DEFINITELY want to be before using your next use) Why do I say this? Because when you enter battle, you can already have wildshaped

Now for the reason this thread exists: How do you use wild shape as a druid to survive in combat?

Presuming you don't have natural spell, your best option is to utilize the special attacks and the like of your new form.

You can't go wrong with a bear. Bears have good attacks, grapple modifiers, strength, and brown bears have track as a feat.

As for surviving, most people would suggest a bird or some other flying animal, while this is not a bad idea, I personally would suggest a wolverine, medium creature, but a climb/burrow speed 10 ft, and rage when it gets damaged, and additionally can take 10 on climb, its easy to get creative with this creature, and enemies can't cast spells at you, or fire projectiles while you're underground.

In this great handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?472737-Updated-Master-of-Many-Forms-Bible-official-wild-shape-rules-(recovered)) you can find rules for what you get from wildshaping. Both feats (track) and extraordinary abilities (rage) are not amongst them.
The guide also has a great section on useful forms you can turn into. Just keep in mind the guide is primarily written for masters of many forms, who eventually gain the (ex) abilities of creatures they wildshape into.

[eggynack]

In this great handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?472737-Updated-Master-of-Many-Forms-Bible-official-wild-shape-rules-(recovered)) you can find rules for what you get from wildshaping. Both feats (track) and extraordinary abilities (rage) are not amongst them.
The guide also has a great section on useful forms you can turn into. Just keep in mind the guide is primarily written for masters of many forms, who eventually gain the (ex) abilities of creatures they wildshape into.
Feat style track is probably an extraordinary special quality, so it is indeed inaccessible. Might be attainable through enhance wild shape, but this core context eliminates that as a possibility. Rage, however, at least as it appears on something like a wolverine, is specifically an extraordinary special attack. Unlike Ex special qualities, these are accessible through wild shape.

[Twurps]

Feat style track is probably an extraordinary special quality, so it is indeed inaccessible. Might be attainable through enhance wild shape, but this core context eliminates that as a possibility. Rage, however, at least as it appears on something like a wolverine, is specifically an extraordinary special attack. Unlike Ex special qualities, these are accessible through wild shape.

Oops, my bad. didn't notice rage was in the special attack category.

[King of Nowhere]

By the way, I was not familiar with monk's belt. I assumed it was something that let you use WIS bonus for AC as if you were a monk, but I looked up the description and it's not really what it said:

This simple rope belt, when wrapped around a character’s waist, confers great ability in unarmed combat. The wearer’s AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher. If donned by a character with the Stunning Fist feat, the belt lets her make one additional stunning attack per day. If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk. This AC bonus functions just like the monk’s AC bonus.
monks have an AC bonus of 1 every 5 levels, and that is the AC of a 5th level monk. adding your WIS bonus to AC is a different class ability, and the belt does not bestow monk's class abilities. The way i read it, it absolutely should not confer that ability. Especially because 13000 gp to have clerics and druids gain the full benefits of +5 full plate without any of the flaws really seem way too good.

[Daefos]

By the way, I was not familiar with monk's belt. I assumed it was something that let you use WIS bonus for AC as if you were a monk, but I looked up the description and it's not really what it said:

monks have an AC bonus of 1 every 5 levels, and that is the AC of a 5th level monk. adding your WIS bonus to AC is a different class ability, and the belt does not bestow monk's class abilities. The way i read it, it absolutely should not confer that ability. Especially because 13000 gp to have clerics and druids gain the full benefits of +5 full plate without any of the flaws really seem way too good.

Both the Wisdom-to-AC and scaling bonus are listed under the same class feature. The key part is at the end.

This AC bonus functions just like the monk’s AC bonus.
You gain the AC bonus of a monk, and a monk's AC bonus includes their Wisdom score. If it was based on class features (which it doesn't reference) and didn't give you Wisdom-to-AC (which it does) like you're suggesting, then it would be a 13,000gp item that does literally nothing because the monk's entire AC bonus is one ability.

[Bronk]

Don't forget, the monk's belt also gives you unarmed strikes as a fifth level monk. Druids with the belt can use lethal iterative unarmed strikes, then follow those up with their natural attack routine as secondaries. They can then increase all of their damage further with a fanged ring.

[jdizzlean]

While we talk about feats/magic items (like the monk's belt mentioned earlier) you could also take intuitive attack (Book of Exalted Deeds) to add your Wis mod to BaB

.

that lets you use WIS instead of STR, you don't get both, but on a drood, that could work in your favor depending on your form

[Fouredged Sword]

that lets you use WIS instead of STR, you don't get both, but on a drood, that could work in your favor depending on your form

If you are going to be wildshapeing and casting bite of the X, you are much more likely to have super high strength than have a wisdom over the strength score you can achieve trivially at any given level..

For example, at level 8 you can wildshape into a rhino and cast bite of the wereboar and end up with a 30 str, +15 natural armor, double damage on a charge, and +32 extra HP from a con boost.

Basically you turn into an ubercharger on par with almost any level 8 fighter with two actions and no preparation. Want to grapple? Well turn into a octopus instead. A fighter spends an entire build to do something you can switch into and out of multiple times per day. If you took the natural spell feat you are even still a druid. The reason I think you feel this isn't powerful is that melee, no matter how well built, pales in comparison to simply being a tier one caster. While a bear of some sort is the iconic wildshape, most of the time there is a better form you can find by turning past B in the monster manual.

[Deophaun]

Basically you turn into an ubercharger on par with almost any level 8 fighter with two actions and no preparation.
So the fight's already (half) over, then?

This is why the bite of line is subpar, even though the numbers are big. It's better to have good numbers when you need them than great numbers two rounds later.

[Eldariel]

So the fight's already (half) over, then?

This is why the bite of line is subpar, even though the numbers are big. It's better to have good numbers when you need them than great numbers two rounds later.

Well, depends. Sometimes you have surprise, door, distance or whatever that makes the opportunity cost of buffing rather low.

[stanprollyright]

For example, at level 8 you can wildshape into a rhino and cast bite of the wereboar and end up with a 30 str, +15 natural armor, double damage on a charge, and +32 extra HP from a con boost.

You don't get extra HP from wild shape.

[Deophaun]

Well, depends. Sometimes you have surprise, door, distance or whatever that makes the opportunity cost of buffing rather low.
While true, the problem is I call most of those situations "fight's I've already won before starting." Spells that are best at helping me win already won fights aren't that useful.

The "bite of" series only really comes into play if you have a way to cast them as a free or swift action. Then they're pretty good.

[Eldariel]

While true, the problem is I call most of those situations "fight's I've already won before starting." Spells that are best at helping me win already won fights aren't that useful.

The "bite of" series only really comes into play if you have a way to cast them as a free or swift action. Then they're pretty good.

True, but it depends. Sometimes the enemy can be numerically overwhelming, where grand equalizer is necessary. Extra numbers can occasionally be really important and sometimes even worth a combat action: say you need to melee a dragon. And of course, they're great if you can persist it.