Making Every Caster Spontaneous

[lord pringle]

So, I often run for a lot of new players/people who don't like learning rules but love roleplaying. One thing I've found is that Spontaneous casters tend to go a lot better with that crowd than prepared casters, since they require less homework. So, I had the idea to just make all casters spontaneous. While I know that there are Archetypes that give spontaneous casting, they either don't exist (like Warpriest), give away more than they should (like Ley Line Guardian for Witch) or change the class significantly (Eldritch Scion for Magus).
Would anything break if I just made everything spontaneous? Ninth level casters would use sorcerer spells known and per day, sixth level casters would use bard spells known and per day and fourth level casters would use bloodrager spells known and per day.
I know that this would lower the power level, but I mean tier 2 and tier 1 are more or less the same thing.

[The_Jette]

Well... you'd be pretty much getting rid of Wizards, if you add spells known into the mix. Wizards can "know" any number of spells, by copying them into their spellbook. It gives them a flexibility that will be lost in this situation. It's not exactly a bad idea, though. How would you handle Clerics and Druids, who usually know all the spells available, and only have to ask in the morning for their new allotment? Will they choose their spells every morning, but be limited to Spells Known for how many they can "prepare" to cast spontaneously?

[noob]

Well the thing is that sorcerer casting is even more a chore for me: I never get to be able to chose spells when I pick from a too small list: I hesitate because I feel like if I was losing something if I do not pick up all the awesome stuff(like simulacrum: I can not not take it) so I wonder for hours which spell to pick unlike with wizard where I have lots of spell and know I learn more and then I can just prepare my list by picking random stuff(like how I prepare remove curse every day while I never say anybody cast bestow curse nor had to use that bestow curse but I pick it up) and then at the last moment prepare the spells I need and have all the free time spells I want.
So if you make everybody prepared caster spontaneous casters I think you can fix most of the trouble I face with the following changes:
You can when you have a lot of time cast any spell in a ritual book by following its procedures.
Rituals would then take 10 rounds or more to cast and would spend spell slots.
(this do all the down time spells you want)
Then you complete by adding one ritual that allows to change the spells known but which would take a week so that adventurers do not decide"I will change my spell list every day and still be a spontaneous spellcaster getting the best of the two worlds"
But if a player really wants to get the best of the two worlds he just have to play an arcanist.

[lord pringle]

Well... you'd be pretty much getting rid of Wizards, if you add spells known into the mix. Wizards can "know" any number of spells, by copying them into their spellbook. It gives them a flexibility that will be lost in this situation. It's not exactly a bad idea, though. How would you handle Clerics and Druids, who usually know all the spells available, and only have to ask in the morning for their new allotment? Will they choose their spells every morning, but be limited to Spells Known for how many they can "prepare" to cast spontaneously?

Wizards would just cast like Sorcerers, but with School Abilities instead of bloodlines. Clerics and Druids would just cast like Oracles. It's the simplest version of this I could think of, which is the whole purpose of this.

[The_Jette]

Wizards would just cast like Sorcerers, but with School Abilities instead of bloodlines. Clerics and Druids would just cast like Oracles. It's the simplest version of this I could think of, which is the whole purpose of this.

But, you said Wizards would have spells known, like the Sorcerer. How would that work?

[noob]

It would mean that they get spells known as per the sorcerer table of spells known instead of getting a spell-book with 2 spells per level where they can copy spells.

[lord pringle]

Well the thing is that sorcerer casting is even more a chore for me: I never get to be able to chose spells when I pick from a too small list: I hesitate because I feel like if I was losing something if I do not pick up all the awesome stuff(like simulacrum: I can not not take it) so I wonder for hours which spell to pick unlike with wizard where I have lots of spell and know I learn more and then I can just prepare my list by picking random stuff(like how I prepare remove curse every day while I never say anybody cast bestow curse nor had to use that bestow curse but I pick it up) and then at the last moment prepare the spells I need and have all the free time spells I want.
So if you make everybody prepared caster spontaneous casters I think you can fix most of the trouble I face with the following changes:
You can when you have a lot of time cast any spell in a ritual book by following its procedures.
Rituals would then take 10 rounds or more to cast and would spend spell slots.
(this do all the down time spells you want)
Then you complete by adding one ritual that allows to change the spells known but which would take a week so that adventurers do not decide"I will change my spell list every day and still be a spontaneous spellcaster getting the best of the two worlds"
But if a player really wants to get the best of the two worlds he just have to play an arcanist.

Fair enough, I guess I've just never felt that way. To me (and I think some of my players) it's the exact opposite, where I panic about needing to prepare the exact right spells in the exact right amount every time my character sleeps, instead of just doing it once and then fixing my mistakes every 5 levels. That said, I do like the idea of making rituals a big part, perhaps even granting a bonus on them to formerly prepared classes.

But, you said Wizards would have spells known, like the Sorcerer. How would that work?

Literally the exact same way it works for sorcerers? They know spells and cast them when they want. I don't see the confusion, I guess.

[Recherché]

Also how would you want to handle cleric domains? You could add them to the list of spells known but that would give them an odd leg up on oracle. You could give them a choice of domain spells as well which would put them more even with oracle.

That said I'd be pretty unhappy either way with a spontaneous cleric. Divine casters have a lot of healing spells that are only useful after someone's been hit by a specific condition. With a spontaneous cleric I'd either have to choose between knowing Raise Dead and having it hog a spells known slot all the time when most days it's useless. Or I could never learn it and let a party member get screwed over when someone finally foes die.

[lord pringle]

Also how would you want to handle cleric domains? You could add them to the list of spells known but that would give them an odd leg up on oracle. You could give them a choice of domain spells as well which would put them more even with oracle.
My first thought would be to give them their domains just as spells known, but you're right. Maybe just give them one of the two?

That said I'd be pretty unhappy either way with a spontaneous cleric. Divine casters have a lot of healing spells that are only useful after someone's been hit by a specific condition. With a spontaneous cleric I'd either have to choose between knowing Raise Dead and having it hog a spells known slot all the time when most days it's useless. Or I could never learn it and let a party member get screwed over when someone finally foes die.

Don't Oracles have the exact same problem?

[Recherché]

Don't Oracles have the exact same problem?

Yes and it hurts them too. Most oracles get around this by letting someone else take care of the status effects and focusing on another aspect of divine casting themselves or using scrolls for this. However if regular prepared clerics just aren't available it makes it much more difficult to deal with things like negative levels and curses.

[stanprollyright]

If people like spontaneous casters better, they should play spontaneous casters. You don't have to ban prepared casters.

[Florian]

But, you said Wizards would have spells known, like the Sorcerer. How would that work?

Ever looked at the Arcanist? Spell book to spells known mechanic...

[noob]

In the world of spontaneous casters an arcanist is a wizard.
Oh and in the world of wizards the arcanist is a wizard too!

[Grod_The_Giant]

For Clerics and other domain users, I'd say either have the domain spells count against your spells known, or simply add them to your class list.

The ritual suggestion is a good one, though. Perhaps allow all formerly prepared casters to learn a limited number of spells (1/level, say) as rituals, in addition to the normal ones. Rituals would take, oh, one hour to cast, and you could use [casting stat] rituals/day. Wizards have to put them in their spellbook, Clerics and Druids just know them. That gives you some space for obscure divinations and status healers while still getting a full load of regular-use spells, though it does also make spontaneous casters look bad... so maybe cut one spell/level/day off the prepared casters?

[JoeElf]

If people are having trouble during character creation with any type of core class character, I like the Pathfinder book Strategy Guide. It has a nice suggestion of spells and feats for any class. The one exception is Fighter doesn't have the options for the Armor and Weapon Master's Handbook, and no Unchained Rogue options. It is core-only.

It has a listing of spells I like for every class. So if you need to help casters build a Sorceress, the spells and feats options are there.

[JoeElf]

If you want an Intelligence-based sorcerer:
Official: Sorcerer Archetypes‎ > ‎Wildblooded‎ > ‎Mutated Bloodlines ‎ > ‎ Sage

If you want more spells known than the standard sorcerer:
Official feat: Expanded Arcana

3rd party feat from Rogue Genius Games: Extra Spells Known

Make available the Page of Spell Knowledge more easily.

For increased spell variety, allow all spontaneous casters to take the Human version of Favored Class Bonus that allows learning an extra spell at each class level-up [but one spell level lower than can be cast].