DM Help Designing Star-Fantasy Races [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-10, 05:27 PM

Make sure you noticed the ki-rin in VGtM.
Actually, I owe you a huge thank-you and a kudos for this comment. I was struggling to figure out what "hook" to give the Oriental Stars "cluster" in this setting as a racial hook, because I've had a very hard time coming up with Oriental Adventures races for vanilla D&D that don't boil down to some flavor of obake/hengeyokai, because apart from Oni they make up the bulk of the yokai species that actually easily transition to PC status - it's hard to come up with good crunch for things like the Futakuchi-onna or Kejoro.

What you've just inspired me to do is to go full-on "beastfolk in space!" with that cluster. Hengeyokai, Moon Rabbit-folk, Oriental Dragonborn, and Ki-rin-folk as government-sponsored priest-sages, for example.

It gives that territory and its races a nice, obvious "hat" to wear and a foundation to build from, which means it's fertile ground for me to sow ideas in.

I really can't thank you enough for this!

Also, you cemented the idea to make the "Coatl-born" into the last remnants of a lost civilization that once spanned a vast swathe of the galaxy, so thank you a lot for that.

It is always weird when there is that one species in the universe that needs a hazmat suit while everyone else is in pyjamas. But I like your justification for them being space nomads.
Technically speaking, they don't actually need the survival mantles in day-to-day life. It's a cultural quirk; they started out as a means of protection when their world became too toxic to live on (the period between realizing "we gotta get out of here!" and "ships are done, let's go!"), survived as a means of further protection during the early generations of space-borne nomadism, and now it's just become a cultural issue: don't take your suit off in front of strangers, that's something you reserve for intimate settings. They're a private and reserved sort of people; passionate, when they're alone together, but privacy is very important to them.

And technically speaking, treating various skin colors of humans like they are racially inferior is not an unheard of concept in fantasy. Doesn't make it a good idea. (the asari are also supposed to be agender, not feminine in the original trilogy.)
Okay, I really don't want to come off as hostile here, but I feel I need to say this: an argument that boils down to "I don't like this" is not, to me, a convincing argument. I honestly believe you are here in good faith and I'm going to talk about this sincerely. But, if in the end the debate boils down to you taking the stance "this is not to my taste", well, that is your right and I respect that, but likewise, please respect that I will not necessarily change the detail if I don't agree with you.

Well, what part of this race appeals to you? Making a list is a place to start.

Since I am impaitent, lemme throw out a suggestion: Perhaps this society is matriarchal, fulfilling the amazon role. To be like the Khajit, they have a fantastical caste system (which is quite pulpy sci-fi in my opinion) with different 'morphs' occupying different roles and having different rights in their society. Genetic manipulation is very common in this society, as are bio-weapons. Fertility is tightly controlled with hormones, surgery and other methods. Children are often reared in uterine replicators to ensure that a matriarch can continue her work and to properly monitor new children. Sex has very little to do with reproduction.

However, they're not terribly fond of outsiders, so actually getting to a planet settled by these people is going to be tough. That doesn't mean there aren't individuals who have decided to flee this society, particularly those of a warrior-caste and a laborer caste. The two are quite muscular and large, but those who know of the race can tell the two apart easily (ear shape, coat color, fang length, etc). Many decide to go into physically demanding jobs, such as mining, military work, and become bodyguards. Their keen senses (or some other feature) make them particularly valued as bodyguards.

I just can't find a way to introduce the concubine angle in. And even if you did want to, why wouldn't males be equally as valued as concubines as women? Or intersex individuals?
Getting on to more pleasant topics; this is actually a pretty handy comment. In a nutshell, what I wanted to do with this race was invoke some of the admittedly cheesy charm of the works that inspired me: catgirl amazons, with inspiration from the bizarre alien reproduction of the khaijit for some added "alienness".

Incidentally, the "concubine" angle was perhaps a poor choice of word. Essentially, it's the Bodyguard Babe trope - warlords and crime bosses take "Battlecats" as bodyguards as a show of power; "Look at me! See how powerful and awesome I am! I can make the fearsome Catamazons serve me and obey my every order! Fear me!" - you follow what I'm saying?

Anyway, here's what I'm thinking: the Felinoids are the artifically created daughters of "Cat-Dragons", feline-like magical beasts of draconic stature and power - and intelligence. Don't think "giant tiger with catgirl daughters", think "feline analogue to Smaug magically creating warforged for company". These "Clan-Mothers" are a mystery to other races; how they reproduce themselves, nobody knows, but they created the Felinoids from themselves: Felinoid creation-myths state that they did so because they were lonely, and wished for companionship that they cannot have from their own people. Thus, the Felinoids fight, hunt, feast, laugh and live for the amusement and happiness of their Clan-Mothers, eager to repay their beloved matriarchs for the great gift of life itself.

Maybe the Cat-Dragons themselves are all that's left of a near-extinct race; though unaging, their males were all killed, and whilst they can spawn Felinoids through magic, some limitation in the art means that they can only produce daughters by doing so. Just an aside thought, but the more I think about it, the more that actually makes sense to me.

Different castes, with different body-styles, definitely work, although the shaping of different sisterhoods is something done by the Clan-Mothers themselves. I really want to preserve the "Barbarian" motif with this race, so they're not great crafters or masters of magic themselves, depending on trade with other races for "shinies" (not necessary to survive, but a status symbol) and the gifts of the Clan-Mothers to sustain their people. This does simplify the list of castes, but still preserves the idea, I think.

This even explains why they leave; thirst for adventure and a desire to acquire status-boosting boosting treasures by serving amongst the "Star Peoples". Eventually, every merc plans on returning to the clans, to inspire her Mother and sisters with the stories of the things she has done.

And, maybe, for the rarest and most powerful of veteran adventurers, something greater lies in store. Proving their worth to receive the greatest secret and honor of their people; to undergo a magical transformation and become a new Clan-Mother.

If a species that once had males but now reproduces asexually can still have mating behaviours, it might not be such a stretch to imagine the asexual workers and soldiers of a bee-like colony also having such desires. It could even be useful as a mean to fraternize between colonies, or as it happens with alien species.
This is a D&D setting. Asexual reproduction methods do not have to mean being aromantic or incapable of sexual pleasure. Look at the Thriae of Pathfinder; only the queens need to mate with human men to produce offspring, but the sterile majority of the hive still feels sexual desire and romantic attraction, and they do fall in love with humans themselves.

Honest Tiefling

2017-06-10, 06:10 PM

Incidentally, the "concubine" angle was perhaps a poor choice of word. Essentially, it's the Bodyguard Babe trope - warlords and crime bosses take "Battlecats" as bodyguards as a show of power; "Look at me! See how powerful and awesome I am! I can make the fearsome Catamazons serve me and obey my every order! Fear me!" - you follow what I'm saying?

Still fetish fuel, but I'd argue far less creepy. Since this is something that occurs in real life, I could see space fantasy humans (and other human-like races) doing the same thing. Through I'd worry about balance issues if these catamazons are so powerful in comparison to other PC races. Also, would this mean that there should be a catamazon pirate queen or other catamazon raiders?

Maybe the Cat-Dragons themselves are all that's left of a near-extinct race; though unaging, their males were all killed, and whilst they can spawn Felinoids through magic, some limitation in the art means that they can only produce daughters by doing so. Just an aside thought, but the more I think about it, the more that actually makes sense to me.

If they have mammalian or mammalian like genetics, then females are XX and there might just not be a Y chromosome anywhere to replicate. Yes I know it's magic, but maybe the magic has limitations that work with genetics. Only question is, what wiped out the males? Perhaps this should remain a mystery.

Different castes, with different body-styles, definitely work, although the shaping of different sisterhoods is something done by the Clan-Mothers themselves. I really want to preserve the "Barbarian" motif with this race, so they're not great crafters or masters of magic themselves, depending on trade with other races for "shinies" (not necessary to survive, but a status symbol) and the gifts of the Clan-Mothers to sustain their people. This does simplify the list of castes, but still preserves the idea, I think.

I think having techno-magic overlords is sorta required for pulpy sci-fi, and turns them from what I would call 'Greenskinned space babes with unfortunate implications' to ' interesting race that just happens to be female'. Also gives plenty of plot hooks as well as an explanation for why males don't exist. Through removing the word concubine (which has implications of power) probably helps a bunch.

Nifft

2017-06-10, 06:22 PM

If you're looking for aliens that feel alien, then I highly recommend reading some good Sci-Fi, and working to emulate the creatures & people you find.

For example, A Fire Upon the Deep (by Vernor Vinge) gives us the Tines (a "pack" person, composed of several separate wolf-like creatures -- if the area was too noisy, the individuals couldn't communicate sufficiently to remain sapient, and each individual wolf-creature would behave as though confused); in some ways they'd be a playable swarm creature. It also gave us Skroderiders, which are six-wheeled potted plants that rely on external machinery (the "Skrode", or plant-pot) to augment their short-term memory buffers, and which are basically sentient but not sapient without the machinery. They're an example of a hybrid biological-cybernetic person, with a well-defined behavior mode when the parts are separated.

If you want specific inspirations from other games, then I'd recommend looking at Star Frontiers, in specific the Dralasite:
http://i.imgur.com/ofqN4yp.jpg

Naanomi

2017-06-10, 06:30 PM

I'm always a big fan of 'plant people' as well... maybe a species who spends their adult life as a 'magical tree' but their seeds are humanoids and travel extensively to find places to 'root' (which is based on magic stuff like galactic leylines and the like). This could be your 'ancient mysterious race'; with trees found in many worlds seemingly predating space travel of most races. Maybe central figures in Druidism?

Also, perhaps a small but strong race from a 'high gravity world'... small size but also +Str/Con mechanically? A good subversion of visual expectations

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-10, 06:39 PM

Still fetish fuel, but I'd argue far less creepy. Since this is something that occurs in real life, I could see space fantasy humans (and other human-like races) doing the same thing. Through I'd worry about balance issues if these catamazons are so powerful in comparison to other PC races.
In terms of power, they're supposed to be "great warriors" but not "mary sue" - like... crunch-wise, these girls would be akin to Orcs or Dwarves or Goliaths; +2 Strength and some "tough" type or combat boosting racial features. Say, +2 Strength, +1 Dex, free weapon proficiency, you follow?

Also, would this mean that there should be a catamazon pirate queen or other catamazon raiders?
Yes, definitely. The difference between merc and pirate is that one asks for money politely and the other demands it, really. Felinoids don't care much about the legalities of other races; personal glory and the protection of their people are their only priorities. (Gross oversimplification, but hopefully conveys the point: these are a renegade people, not exactly diplomatic masters.)

If they have mammalian or mammalian like genetics, then females are XX and there might just not be a Y chromosome anywhere to replicate. Yes I know it's magic, but maybe the magic has limitations that work with genetics. Only question is, what wiped out the males? Perhaps this should remain a mystery.
That works fine for me. I really think, the more we discuss it, that I honestly like and prefer the idea that their "Clan-Mothers" are a technically seperate species who, having lost their malefolk in some Mysterious Incident, now create Felinoids as surrogate daughters because that's the only option they've got. Heck, at this point, there may be some who don't even want to bring males of their own kind, because they see their current lifecycle and/or culture as superior.

I think having techno-magic overlords is sorta required for pulpy sci-fi, and turns them from what I would call 'Greenskinned space babes with unfortunate implications' to ' interesting race that just happens to be female'. Also gives plenty of plot hooks as well as an explanation for why males don't exist. Through removing the word concubine (which has implications of power) probably helps a bunch.
I was basically intending the cat-dragon clan-mothers to be their sci-sorcerer overlords to begin with, so I happily agree with you there.

And yeah, I'm happy to agree to remove the "concubine" term. Does it make sense that they may get up to sexual shenanigans, though? Cats do have that "hedonistic" association, and it's not unprecedented: I point you towards the Asari, whose Maiden stage stereotypically goes through a prolonged period of indulging itself as strippers and/or mercenaries before settling down for Motherhood after a few centuries.

I'm always a big fan of 'plant people' as well... maybe a species who spends their adult life as a 'magical tree' but their seeds are humanoids and travel extensively to find places to 'root' (which is based on magic stuff like galactic leylines and the like). This could be your 'ancient mysterious race'; with trees found in many worlds seemingly predating space travel of most races. Maybe central figures in Druidism?

Also, perhaps a small but strong race from a 'high gravity world'... small size but also +Str/Con mechanically? A good subversion of visual expectations
Hmm... plant people have never been a huge personal favorite, but that does sound like a good idea. And a "pint-sized powerhouse" race from a high-grav world would be unique, too, although I'm not sure of how to really treat it beyond just taking the Dwarf and making them Small instead of Medium...

Naanomi

2017-06-10, 06:48 PM

Hrm... small race... stats +2 Str/+1 Con... give them 'powerful build', resistance to non-magic bludgeoning damage, advantage in checks to avoid being shoved/forcefully moved, and a d4 unarmed 'pummeling' attack. Make them a super hardworking and somewhat arrogant race; mocking the 'lesser' races for being so weak despite being 'too big'... maybe they are a somewhat ubiquitous race, hired in work crews by every race (because they relish chances to 'show off their strength')

For plant people... +2 Wisdom/+1 Con... some spells that they get as they level up with Con as the casting stat (shillelagh at first, good berry and speak with plants later?) ... hold their breath twice as long, don't need to eat if they have access to soil... and maybe something about being hard to kill like... advantage on death saves

Millstone85

2017-06-10, 07:06 PM

I really can't thank you enough for this!You are most welcome!

Technically speaking, they don't actually need the survival mantles in day-to-day life. It's a cultural quirk; they started out as a means of protection when their world became too toxic to live on (the period between realizing "we gotta get out of here!" and "ships are done, let's go!"), survived as a means of further protection during the early generations of space-borne nomadism, and now it's just become a cultural issue: don't take your suit off in front of strangers, that's something you reserve for intimate settings. They're a private and reserved sort of people; passionate, when they're alone together, but privacy is very important to them.This gives me an idea. What if the Scavvers and the Aelfar were from the same dead world, and originally one people? The temptation of undeath would have become really strong when they first started living in such claustrophobic conditions. And if you go with my earlier idea of a Borg-like sort of undeath, with magical contraptions all over and through the corpse, then the two races share that "arcanotechnology" you spoke of. I wonder if Eberron has ever described the creation of warforged for the purpose of feeding a phylactery...

There could also be a third group, more druidically inclined, that durably adopted the traits of whatever beasts still survived in their toxic world. Most of them are similar to thri-kreen now, though other shapes exist. They could be called, say, the Laemirs.

I am stealing from a video game I didn't play but read about, Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth. Here the divergence happens after humans leave a dying Earth and start living on an alien world that is more sustainable but requires enclosed cities and hazmat suits. To get out of these, the path of Supremacy embraces robotic transhumanism, while the path of Harmony offers to mix our biology with that of the native wildlife (There are no Na'vi, but there is a sleeping Eywa). There is also the path of Purity, which is defined by the rejection of the other two and is also the only one that wants to completely terraform the planet. And yes, I know, it is no Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri lore.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-10, 07:08 PM

I'm basically worrying about the fluff at this point rather than the crunch, Naanomi. For example, the plant race; do I make up something completely new, or do I just slap Adu'jas (empathic elder race plant-people from Dragon #317) into space and call it a day?

Do appreciate you taking the time to offer your thoughts, though.

Naanomi

2017-06-10, 07:18 PM

Meh I would draw imagery and inspiration from a variety of sources, but I would (myself) make mostly new creations... that is the fun of worldbuilding after all!

Honest Tiefling

2017-06-10, 07:30 PM

And yeah, I'm happy to agree to remove the "concubine" term. Does it make sense that they may get up to sexual shenanigans, though? Cats do have that "hedonistic" association...

Well...I think this depends on the tastes of your group. If dirty humor, brothels, prostitution and the like are elements your group enjoys, go right ahead. Even if its not the tone you intend, the race selection is likely to be the first element of your setting that players will see and it might imply something you were not intending. Yes, it makes sense for social bonding that they'd be a sexual race, but a frank anthropological discussion of such features might not be at home in a campaign setting.

For most groups, I don't think everyone is comfortable with that tone. In which case, I'd just imply it. Mention how they are free-spirited and don't particularly care to conform to other's social norms. They'll probably get the gist of things.

As for the plant race, go with one of two routes: either take a race you like or think would match the tone of the setting. Or if you want to be lazy, poll your players. Some people enjoy coming up with their own race, so why not let them develop that race if they want to play it?

Admittedly, I like the Clan-Mothers better when there is the implication that they like their obedient daughters. That way their power is assured and they get to complain if their daughters bring home a plant person. She is putting her foot down and as long as you live on her planet, she will not tolerate any dang leafy coming here and spraying their pollen all over the place. Back in her day, daughters brought home a harem of men they had stolen, but noooooo....

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-10, 07:38 PM

Heh, true enough, AMNaanomi

You are most welcome!

This gives me an idea. What if the Scavvers and the Aelfar were from the same dead world, and originally one people? The temptation of undeath would have become really strong when they first started living in such claustrophobic conditions. And if you go with my earlier idea of a Borg-like sort of undeath, with magical contraptions all over and through the corpse, then the two races share that "arcanotechnology" you spoke of. I wonder if Eberron has ever described the creation of warforged for the purpose of feeding a phylactery...

There could also be a third group, more druidically inclined, that durably adopted the traits of whatever beasts still survived in their toxic world. Most of them are similar to thri-kreen now, though other shapes exist. They could be called, say, the Laemirs.

I am stealing from a video game I didn't play but read about, Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth. Here the divergence happens after humans leave a dying Earth and start living on an alien world that is more sustainable but requires enclosed cities and hazmat suits. To get out of these, the path of Supremacy embraces robotic transhumanism, while the path of Harmony offers to mix our biology with that of the native wildlife (There are no Na'vi, but there is a sleeping Eywa). There is also the path of Purity, which is defined by the rejection of the other two and is also the only one that wants to completely terraform the planet. And yes, I know, it is no Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri lore.
Firstly, sorry for not replying to you above, you replied whilst I was writing.

Secondly... it's an interesting idea, but I'm afraid I've got to turn it down. Aelfar are intended to be "recognizably" elfin, just creepy and wrong, like the Mul Daya elves from Zendikar, whilst with the "Scavvers", my physical inspiration all along were these two fanmade alternate quarian designs... I'd post the images if I could figure out how, or at least find them online...

Ah, here's one, at least: this was my inspiration for the head/face, I can't find the other, but it was fairly similar in terms of continuing the theme down the body.

http://www.fanpup.me/uploads/2/3/5/9/23592480/5596792_orig.jpg

...If that link doesn't work, it's #9 on this link here: http://www.fanpup.me/blog/11-talizorah-fan-concepts-that-are-better-than-the-game

Well...I think this depends on the tastes of your group. If dirty humor, brothels, prostitution and the like are elements your group enjoys, go right ahead. Even if its not the tone you intend, the race selection is likely to be the first element of your setting that players will see and it might imply something you were not intending. Yes, it makes sense for social bonding that they'd be a sexual race, but a frank anthropological discussion of such features might not be at home in a campaign setting.

For most groups, I don't think everyone is comfortable with that tone. In which case, I'd just imply it. Mention how they are free-spirited and don't particularly care to conform to other's social norms. They'll probably get the gist of things.

As for the plant race, go with one of two routes: either take a race you like or think would match the tone of the setting. Or if you want to be lazy, poll your players. Some people enjoy coming up with their own race, so why not let them develop that race if they want to play it?

Admittedly, I like the Clan-Mothers better when there is the implication that they like their obedient daughters. That way their power is assured and they get to complain if their daughters bring home a plant person. She is putting her foot down and as long as you live on her planet, she will not tolerate any dang leafy coming here and spraying their pollen all over the place. Back in her day, daughters brought home a harem of men they had stolen, but noooooo....
I literally don't have to worry about the taste of my group. I don't have a group. I can't get a group. I'm making this setting for the sheer personal enjoyment of making it.

Also... I must admit I don't follow where that final paragraph about the Clan-Mothers is coming from?

I do think it's a funny image, though.

Honest Tiefling

2017-06-10, 07:44 PM

Also... I must admit I don't follow where that final paragraph about the Clan-Mothers is coming from?

I do think it's a funny image, though.

Sorry if I was confusing. I meant that they might prefer the Felinoid offspring, so they could have utter power over their children, even if their orders were nonsensical.

As for the bedroom habits of these races, write what you want. Or you could write a version with only implied naughtiness, and have a separate document with more explicit details if you ever intend to run this at a later date.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-10, 07:50 PM

Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification.

Hmm... should I go ahead and do up a first proper draft of the races I have some concept of for their presence in this setting? Because you guys have all helped out with both the initial "aliens" and with the other, not-quite-so-alien races, from Xixchil-inspired surgical mantids to space orks to necromancer elves.

Honest Tiefling

2017-06-10, 07:53 PM

I'd read it. This setting is sounding pretty damn awesome already.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-10, 09:30 PM

Alright... this is my first major draft of races, they've all been percolating about in my head - names are my Kryptonite, so please remember that any name surrounded in quotation marks is a placeholder used because "hey, you!" gets confusing.

Also... I'm really struggling with deciding about whether or not to include religion/divine magic in this setting. I'm not very adept at theological developments and clerics have never really interested me as a class, which is a big reason why my post-apocalyptic fantasy setting, Malebolge (which I'm declaring is a planet in this setting's 'verse, ala Toril, Krynn and Oerth in Spelljammer), is a godless world. I could seriously use help with that.

Humans: ...I really have no solid ideas for these guys. I know they're everywhere, and fractious, but nothing more than beyond that. I'm not certain if I should explicitly tie them to Eden (Malebolge before it blew up) or if their origins are a mystery; maybe they evolved on many different worlds and spread out across the stars.

Aelfar: Space-faring elves whose world, Aelfheim, was ultimately destroyed by the very planar convergence that had given it life. Their people set forth on great living ships through the stars, spreading in different colony-fleets across the universe. Proud, haughty, cold and cruel, the aelfar are an arrogant people who believe in the utter superiority of their race over others. Their "science", such as it is, is founded on the principles of flesh-warping and necromancy; breeding living tools and enslaving the dead to create the backbone for a life of indolence and luxury. Plants, animals and fungi are shaped through magic into forms useful to Aelfar civilization, whilst even the bodies of the dead can be made to work until the Aelfar see fit to release them. Creepy as this is, aelfar are not inherently warlike or evil, and so they are content to live and let life - if left alone. Aelfar adventurers are often explorers, seeking other colonies founded since their people scattered across the galaxy, or else exiles as a result of the political intrigues that dominate their culture.
(Crunch-wise, these are Mul Daya Elves, although I might consider playing around and homebrewing stats.)

"Traggen": Hotheaded, aggressive, predatory humanoids who have a notably limited ability to sense pain, the traggen are a warlike and savage race of arcano-barbarians who respect only two things: strength, and the will to use it. Scattered and fractious, although they have no true empires or presence on the galactic stage, the traggen have long earned some level of grudging respect for their might and their aptitude as mercenaries, pirates and, on rare occasions, planet-crushing hordes.
(Thematically, these are the setting's Orcs; crunch-wise, use Half-Orc stats. This setting's equivalent of a half-orc would probably best be represented by the Goliath.)

"Dworg": When the last great traggen war ended, centuries ago, something unforseen happened. From amongst the winnowed ranks of the survivors, traggen of unusual intelligence and ambition arose. These traggen had learned the hard way that mere muscle and brutish rage could not prosper in a galaxy dominated by magic and order, and swore to take that power for themselves. Naming themselves the Dworg, "Heirs of Victory", they seek to create their own culture, one still giving strength and will its due respect, but realizing and embracing the fact that strength is not the providence of body alone. Their numbers are growing comparatively slowly, as they selectively breed and educate themselves and suitable "uplifted" members of their traggen progenitors, but the race is growing, and someday may be presenting a nasty surprise to a galaxy complacent about the true threat of the traggen.
(These are the setting's Scro; uplifted, intelligent, superior orcs, and would use my homebrew Scro crunch.)

"Xixixians": Mantis-like humanoids who evolved on a deadly, hostile jungle world, the xixixians grew to dominate their world not through physical might, but through superior intelligence, using teamwork and self-improvement to modify their bodies and improve their minds until they could outwit and outfight the predators and other dangers of their homeworld. Body modification is a religion to the xixixians, with each believing that their body is a temple of the soul and must be refined, honed and customized to better suit their true nature. This makes them about the only race with close ties or respect for the Aelfar, fellow masters of flesh-warping. Indeed, so ingrained is this belief in literal bodily refinement that not only is it used for ornamentation, but they have literally engineered themselves into different sub-species, based upon different philosophies about how much they should integrate into the greater galactic society.
(Essentially, Xixchil without the "stupidly individualistic" aspects of the fluff, and further inspiration taken from this pic here, which is basically a thri-kreen version of the infamous "furry meter": https://1d4chan.org/wiki/File:Buggy_chart.jpg "Purists" would be the 90% model, balancers the 70% model, and the most integration-focused/diplomatic corps caste would be the 50% model. Would need to homebrew racial stats for this.)

Vassals of the Glorious Celestial Lotus Empire: An array of many different races that are united under the leadership of the Celestial Lotus Emperor - basically, god-king oriental dragons. Really need a better name here, as this sounds less "pulp" and more "yellow peril".

"Ryujin": The most honored and respected of the Celestial Vassals, the glorious Ryujin were magically engineered directly from the Emperors themselves to serve as the soldiers and police who keep the peace in the Empire and fight against invaders from beyond - or seek to fuel the empire's expansion. Slender, agile, reptilian beings who combine strength and innate mystical adeptness. Propaganda claims that they were literally born of the Emperors, but it's unknown if this is true; they may be magically modified and enslaved humans instead. Adventurers are either stranded soldiers, scouts, or exiled ronin.
(Basically Dragonborn with an Oriental/Lung/Imperial Dragon basis and a dash of the Nagaji from PF. Maybe should discuss actually basing them off of PF's Imperial Dragons directly to figure out both crunch and fluff?)

"Ki'rinii": Elegant, graceful, wise and courteous, the ki'rinii were also created from the Emperors, like the Ryujin, but were made to be sages and scholars, strong in magic and wise enough to support the celestial bureaucracy that keeps the empire running.
(Ki-rin people... really not sure what else to do with them, but I know there's potential here.)

Hengeyokai: The vassal-races of the empire, assorted humanoid beasts with many strange and magical abilities of their own.
(Weak, I know; I basically want to use the various hengeyokai races - kitsunes, tanuki, jorogumo, itachi, bakeneko, mujina and kawauso - and give them all unique roles, because they were individual cultures before the Empire claimed them as its own, but I'm not sure where to start.)

Oni: Descendants of traggen who tried to conquer the empire, but who were conquered in turn. The Emperors took pity and sought to remake them into useful members of the Empire, but the process was... flawed. Too much traggen mentality remains, making them far more independent than the Empire likes. When the ryujin were created, the empire discarded them, and now they are outcasts without a true home or culture.

"Gyokutoans": The newest people to be brought into the Empire proper, the gyokutoans are a rabbit-like people still accepting their place in the great chain. Proud and fierce, but also passionate and fond of pleasures, the stereotypical gyokutoan is either a touchy yet disciplined warrior or a deceptively intelligent and sensual courtesan.
(Without a doubt the weakest of my "oriental space fantasy" races, these guys are inspired by the Japanese legend of the moon rabbit, but I'm not sure how to develop them from here.)

"Quetzalii": It is said that, in an age long gone, beautiful dragon-like beings called Couatl roamed the stars. Luminescent figures resembling winged serpents draped in feathers all the colors of the stars, they were staunch enemies of darkness and evil, who sought to bring light to the furthest reaches of the cosmos. The Couatl are gone, now. But their children remain; proud and honorable warrior-mystics who seek to carry on that legacy, bold explorers and dashing adventurer-archaeologists who seek to write their names in the stars.
(Essentially a couatl version of Dragonborn, but taking inspiration from 4e's depiction of the Couatl as a race whose "goodness" was born more of coincidence than the vanilla "they're just made of good" of previous editions.)

"Lotusians": One of the most ancient races still holding a presence in the galaxy today, the lotusians are a flower-draped and androgynous race of humanoid plants who have been peacemakers, diplomats and explorers since the galaxy was young. Never imperially minded, the lotusians fell into decline during the Dark Times, their numbers winnowed by wars and strife. Now, only a handful of the sacred grove-worlds, where the most ancient of their kind have taken root as immobile masses of vegetation that produce new generations from womb-pods in their bulk, remain to provide a slow trickle of new generations. Some lotusians have succumbed to despair, but others still keep up the good fight, adventuring to continue their ancestral mission of bring peace to all other races.

"Snapperjaws": During the Dark Times, some lotusians succumbed to rage, hostility or despair. Determined to protect themselves, they employed forbidden magics to make themselves more warlike, more suited for what they felt was needed: the ability to match the barbarism of the young races on their own terms. That experiment went hideously right. The snapperjaws are a savage and barbaric breed, which even traggen and felinoids regard with some disdain. Though far more fecund and adaptable than the lotusians, these savage plant-like beings have lost the keen minds of their ancestral stock. The stereotypical snapperjaw is little better than a beast, with only their weird, instinctive knack for salvaging arcanotechnology and strange plant-based bio-tech allowing them to spread across the stars. The best of them are mercenaries and thugs, the worst are little more than flesh-eating monsters that consider everything else mere prey. They are the one race that lotusians evidence true fear or even hatred for, but some of their ancient kin still hope that, even if they will never be part of the great groves again, they can still be brought into the light.

"Felinoids:" Proud, warlike and almost stubbornly savage, the felinoids are a race of all-female barbarians renowned across the galaxy as mercenaries, thugs, pirates, raiders and adventurers. On their home-worlds they organize in great clans, each centered around the Clan-Mother; these strange "cat-dragon" alien beings are all that remains of a long-lost race, although what brought them so low remains unknown. All female themselves, the Clan-Mothers use their mastery of sorcery and science to asexually spawn offspring, creating new generations of felinoids. As such, all felinoids revere and love their progenitors as literal mother-gods. In felinoid culture, their purpose is to love, serve and entertain their creators, who gave them the "First Great Gift" (life) and who will reward them with status and treasure in exchange for proving their worth. Indeed, the mightiest of all felinoids may be granted a supreme honor: transformation into a new Clan-Mother. This, then, fuels their drive to travel to the stars, to amass treasures and stories that will prove their love for the Clan-Mothers.

"Scavvers": Traveling the known stars in great colony-fleets, the Scavvers are an enigmatic race who never remove their protective enviro-armor suits save in the most intimate of positions. They are renowned and respected as master smiths, miners and, especially, lords of the mysterious sorcery-science of arcanotechnology: mining asteroids and moons, they trade valuable crafted goods across the worlds, commanding high prices and great respect - for their potent defense of their own lives if nothing else. Their homeworld was destroyed by some great apocalypse long ago; although welcome to settle anywhere, the truth is that they have developed a cultural fear to the very idea, believing their nomadic existence actually keeps their race safe from seeing it happen again.

"Voidstalkers": Mysterious and feared four-armed psionic warriors who draw upon the cold darkness between the stars through their mental arts. Ruthless, they have crafted a reputation as assassins without peer, bloody warrior-sages who believe that suffering and struggle are the keys to enlightenment. It's unknown if they have a home-world, but they are renowned travelers, popping up wherever they please. They gravitate towards the most lawless of regions, serving as mercenaries and killers for hire. But they do have their own strange codes of honor, and can make surprisingly loyal adventuring companions. Admittedly, the presence of a voidstalker tends to convey an impression that this party is disreputable at best, for it is well known they care more for bloodshed than for coin.

Kuulvheysoon

2017-06-10, 09:45 PM

Pull an eberron- have the primary force behind divine magic be faith based, not deity-based.

You can have clerics of themselves in Eberron- they believe that they can cast cure spells, so they can.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-10, 09:57 PM

Pull an eberron- have the primary force behind divine magic be faith based, not deity-based.

You can have clerics of themselves in Eberron- they believe that they can cast cure spells, so they can.

Hmm... not a bad suggestions, but, really, in that case, why not just go godless and replace clerics with Favored Soul Sorcerers, Theurge Wizards and Celestial Warlocks with refluffed origins ("angels, but no gods", in a nutshell)?

Naanomi

2017-06-10, 10:08 PM

Could humans have been the slave race in Eden, their population and influence exploded (to the galactic community's surprise) since the fall?

Honest Tiefling

2017-06-10, 10:13 PM

Hmm... not a bad suggestions, but, really, in that case, why not just go godless and replace clerics with Favored Soul Sorcerers, Theurge Wizards and Celestial Warlocks with refluffed origins ("angels, but no gods", in a nutshell)?

Because clerics and sorcerers play differently. I too like the Eberron idea if you aren't interested in gods, but why not make it that clerics don't feed off of THEIR faith, but the faith of their community? Basically, a Favored Soul believes so hard they get divine power, but a cleric uses rituals and magic from the faith of an entire community to gain power? Their connection and service to their people empowers them just as much as their people's faith in them.

Also, I'd rename the Loutsians. I mean, they are technically named after their genitalia. Maybe something something Tranquil? Paxos?

As for your unintended Yellow Peril, combine the Asian traits with another empire(s). Roman, Ottoman, or Aztec all work nicely. Smash names together until you get something you like, and steal heavily from both cultures. And perhaps consider a sun theme? They're in space, and so many cultures have a sun theme that it'd be easy to grab names and themes from other cultures. Could call it the Aurian empire or something, especially as a shorter, informal, name.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-10, 10:16 PM

Could humans have been the slave race in Eden, their population and influence exploded (to the galactic community's surprise) since the fall?

Eden is the "world" of my Malebolge setting. Humanity was literally the dominant race (well, they shared the world with dwarves) until an Aelfar colony-fleet showed up, they allowed the elves to settle, and then the dwarves and elves got into a war that blew the whole planet up, Fallout meets Mournland style.

So, if the humans in this setting have any connection to Eden/Malebolge, they're either descended from abductees taken by Old Power races, or from experimental space colonists who shipped off before the planet went kablooie, or who got teleported to other planets during the big kablooie, Rifts style.

Because clerics and sorcerers play differently. I too like the Eberron idea if you aren't interested in gods, but why not make it that clerics don't feed off of THEIR faith, but the faith of their community? Basically, a Favored Soul believes so hard they get divine power, but a cleric uses rituals and magic from the faith of an entire community to gain power? Their connection and service to their people empowers them just as much as their people's faith in them.

Also, I'd rename the Loutsians. I mean, they are technically named after their genitalia. Maybe something something Tranquil? Paxos?

As for your unintended Yellow Peril, combine the Asian traits with another empire(s). Roman, Ottoman, or Aztec all work nicely. Smash names together until you get something you like, and steal heavily from both cultures. And perhaps consider a sun theme? They're in space, and so many cultures have a sun theme that it'd be easy to grab names and themes from other cultures. Could call it the Aurian empire or something, especially as a shorter, informal, name.
:reverse-sigh: A point... I don't know, I really don't like clerics much.

Rename the lotusians? Hah! Like I said, everything needs a rename. Paxos...? Hmm, maybe could work.

The "Yellow Peril" thing was in reference to the empire's name. Again, Aurian Empire sounds pretty good, I'm cool with that.

So... do you have any thoughts on the racial concepts themselves? I really want to hear what you think now, given you were the first person to say that this setting sounded kind of neat.

Honest Tiefling

2017-06-10, 10:34 PM

:reverse-sigh: A point... I don't know, I really don't like clerics much.

Yes, but your players might. There's always the argument to throw things out for the sake of sanity/cohesion, but I would argue that before tossing major parts of the game out, consider if it can be modified to fit.

You haven't mentioned druids. Perhaps you could lump the two together as different ways of channeling natural magical ley lines of a planet. Just don't allow non-nature domains.

Humans: ...I really have no solid ideas for these guys. I know they're everywhere, and fractious, but nothing more than beyond that. I'm not certain if I should explicitly tie them to Eden (Malebolge before it blew up) or if their origins are a mystery; maybe they evolved on many different worlds and spread out across the stars.

If you don't have any ideas for them, why not have them be rare (or at least uncommon)? You have so many other races that humans can just be in the background, all generic-like for those who don't like playing fantastical races. Malebolge had them as a dominant race, so let's do something different.

Aelfar: Space-faring elves whose world, Aelfheim, was ultimately destroyed by the very planar convergence that had given it life. Their people set forth on great living ships through the stars, spreading in different colony-fleets across the universe. Proud, haughty, cold and cruel, the aelfar are an arrogant people who believe in the utter superiority of their race over others. Their "science", such as it is, is founded on the principles of flesh-warping and necromancy; breeding living tools and enslaving the dead to create the backbone for a life of indolence and luxury. Plants, animals and fungi are shaped through magic into forms useful to Aelfar civilization, whilst even the bodies of the dead can be made to work until the Aelfar see fit to release them. Creepy as this is, aelfar are not inherently warlike or evil, and so they are content to live and let life - if left alone. Aelfar adventurers are often explorers, seeking other colonies founded since their people scattered across the galaxy, or else exiles as a result of the political intrigues that dominate their culture.

I'd expand on these guys. They're proud, but don't feel the need to display it to 'lesser' creatures. They're cruel, but not evil. They're necromancers, but also indulge in plant-shaping. I'd also like to know their political structure, since player Aelfar are exiles. I do love me some necromancer elves, however, so this seems interesting.

Perhaps as a twist, have them have some positive political alliances instead of the whole hidden elf colony? Maybe there's a race or two they will trade with for luxuries and art and get along well with.

"Traggen": Hotheaded, aggressive, predatory humanoids who have a notably limited ability to sense pain, the traggen are a warlike and savage race of arcano-barbarians who respect only two things: strength, and the will to use it. Scattered and fractious, although they have no true empires or presence on the galactic stage, the traggen have long earned some level of grudging respect for their might and their aptitude as mercenaries, pirates and, on rare occasions, planet-crushing hordes.
(Thematically, these are the setting's Orcs; crunch-wise, use Half-Orc stats. This setting's equivalent of a half-orc would probably best be represented by the Goliath.)

Is the pain thing meant to be a positive attribute? That's actually a serious condition for humans, so perhaps exploring how their bodies would handle that might be interesting. I feel like this race needs some more exploration, other then being big, burly and aggressive. They do have to breed after all, so maybe some idea of their family structure?

Also, what would a Traggen look like? What is a Arcano-barbarian?

Sabeta

2017-06-10, 11:08 PM

snip

There's the ever infamous "Lesbian Lizzard" a species of Lizard which is entirely female, reproduces asexually, but still requires sexual stimulus to initiate the process. Hence, "Lesbian Lizard". I admittedly skimmed, but if your argument against amazonian catwomen is that their reproduction wouldn't make sense we have an Earth Precedent for such a thing. Always remember, Life finds a way.

That said what I've seen so far are just "space" recolors of normal D&D races. That alone is fine enough if that's what you want in your setting. The main difference between a space elf and a normal elf, is that a space elf probably won the war for planetary dominance against other sentient species. Much like Humans did ages ago. Creating a lore to acompany that is up to you.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-10, 11:18 PM

Yes, but your players might. There's always the argument to throw things out for the sake of sanity/cohesion, but I would argue that before tossing major parts of the game out, consider if it can be modified to fit.
Like I said: players, I don't need to worry about. I can't get anyone to let me play, never mind to let me DM.

You haven't mentioned druids. Perhaps you could lump the two together as different ways of channeling natural magical ley lines of a planet. Just don't allow non-nature domains.
I tend to forget about druids...only race that bugs me more than clerics... but, as mages who tap into astral ley-lines, that might work. Or I might just replace them with a Wizard tradition with similar "nature magic", like my Sidhe Scholar. Still, thanks for the suggestion.

If you don't have any ideas for them, why not have them be rare (or at least uncommon)? You have so many other races that humans can just be in the background, all generic-like for those who don't like playing fantastical races. Malebolge had them as a dominant race, so let's do something different.
Hmm... that's definitely a possibility; once these races are all fleshed out, there's 20-plus - I think the count is 22, if you subdivide all the hengeyokai - races, so humans can get by as the "generic guy" race.

...Wait a minute, how do you know about Malebolge?

I'd expand on these guys. They're proud, but don't feel the need to display it to 'lesser' creatures. They're cruel, but not evil. They're necromancers, but also indulge in plant-shaping. I'd also like to know their political structure, since player Aelfar are exiles. I do love me some necromancer elves, however, so this seems interesting.

Perhaps as a twist, have them have some positive political alliances instead of the whole hidden elf colony? Maybe there's a race or two they will trade with for luxuries and art and get along well with.
Is this a "fix this right now" comment, or a "this'll be good to address when you start focusing on expanding each races" comment? Sorry, just a little hard to read.

What I meant is that the Aelfar are not united as a people; there are lots of different aelfar communities scattered across the stars, but they don't keep in touch all that much. They're dimly aware that they're out there, but there's no galatic-spanning united empire, if that follows?

In comparison, they're much more open and positive with their non-aelfar neighbors - the Xixchil-expies in particular are close buddies.

Is the pain thing meant to be a positive attribute? That's actually a serious condition for humans, so perhaps exploring how their bodies would handle that might be interesting. I feel like this race needs some more exploration, other then being big, burly and aggressive. They do have to breed after all, so maybe some idea of their family structure?
Again, is this a question you want answered right now, or something to keep in mind for future development?

Yes, the "not overwhelmed by pain" thing is a positive trait - it's not so much that they don't feel it as it's not as debilitating. It's basically the fluff explanation for the "1/day, you can avoid being killed by a fatal blow" racial power, I forget what it's called off the top of my head.

Family structure... I'll need to think about it, but, honestly, my first reaction is that it's basically a "strength is hot" cluster-frak: strong traggen can have any other traggen then want, so long as that traggen wants to be had, and usually, if they're strong, that traggen is happy. Very anarchic polyamorous cluster-units; half warband, half harem.

Also, what would a Traggen look like?
I picture them as basically "good-looking orcs"; dark green skin (turning black in the Dworg), strongly built, taller than the human norm, claw-like nails, pronounced canines, rugged but not ugly features.

What is a Arcano-barbarian?
A D&Dification of "techno-barbarian"; someone who manages to maintain some semblance of high-tech equipment without properly understanding how it works or having a culture that seems like it should support it. For example, the Yuat'ja, who have a Stone Age hunter's style tribal culture, complete with emphasis on honor through bloodshed and the glory of melee combat, and yet also have energy blasters, invisibility cloaks and spacetravel.

Herobizkit

2017-06-11, 05:40 AM

Humans don't have a home world. It ceased to be however many eons ago.

Many humans have banded together in large space-faring vessels that double as living quarters (say, ST: TNG's Enterprise). Even rarer, some have chosen to inhabit whole space stations (like, say, ST: DS9).

Humans are generally charismatic and fairly adaptable to new situations (mechanically, they're Half-Elves). They possess a unique ability - the ability to procreate with any Humanoid race. Because of this, they are prized as slaves and often used as barter (at best) or expendable labor. Because of their relatively swift gestation period, a Human slave owner can keep a 'human mill' running for several generations at minimal cost. Some less scrupulous slave owners 'groom' a human to perform a specialized task, teaching them only what they need to know for their trade.

Planet-bound humans with no other intelligent life tend to devolve into a 'feral' state.

Millstone85

2017-06-11, 07:03 AM

Also... I'm really struggling with deciding about whether or not to include religion/divine magic in this setting. I'm not very adept at theological developments and clerics have never really interested me as a class, which is a big reason why my post-apocalyptic fantasy setting, Malebolge (which I'm declaring is a planet in this setting's 'verse, ala Toril, Krynn and Oerth in Spelljammer), is a godless world. I could seriously use help with that.What you could do is introduce one or more divine species. Here are a few, from least godlike to most godlike.

The Idols: They are gods because people regard them as such. It doesn't give them any magical power, just a lot of people willing to do their bidding. There may be many reasons why they came to be worshipped. Perhaps they are, or were at one point, far more advanced than their followers. Anyway, their clerics are just wizards with the status of priest.
Inspiration: the Goa'uld (SG-1), the Founders (DS9)

The Tulpas: Also called Faith-Eaters, they actually gain magical power from worship and may not exist at all without it. Some require prayers addressed specifically to them by name, from someone with knowledge of their myth. Others only need people to care about a particular concept, like "justice" or "the media". They redirect a part of their power toward their clerics.
Inspiration: the Ori (SG-1), the gods and personifications (Discworld)

The Precursors: A very ancient species, that may at one point have been the only sapient life in the known universe and have engineered the evolution of more. They are now a secretive people, still far far more advanced than any of the younger species, and often believed to direct the fate of their "children" from the shadows. Their clerics are wizards and often self-proclaimed priests.
Inspiration: the Ancients (SG-1), the Engineers (a very bad movie)

The Hyperlanders: These beings live in at least four spatial and two temporal dimensions. Most anything about them is ineffable, including why some of them answer prayers and empower clerics. It is perhaps this mystery that makes them very popular deities, often with several competing religions for what is presumably a single one of them. Any avatar they manifest is basically a puppet.
Inspiration: the Prophets (DS9), the Inheritors (Cºntinuum)

The Warpers: The Wish spell? Why yes, they know this cantrip. Very handy, no stress at all. And that's just the beginning of their spellcasting prowess. But most surprising is how convincing they are while polymorphed as a humanoid. You would think them regular guys and gals, only with the very fabric of reality at their fingertips. They have no clerics, but can be insufferable tricksters.
Inspiration: the Q (TNG), Mr. Mxyzptlk (DC)

The Guardians: Where others may gain power from a concept, they are this concept, and the reality behind it. If one of them were to disappear, so would an aspect of the universe as we know it. While many regard them as the true gods of the cosmos, most religions related to them have actually been founded around their clerics, who are very rare but also like demigods themselves.
Inspiration: the Auditors (Discworld), the Imperators (Nobilis)

I think many of the things you mentioned may already qualify as one or more of these.

Malebolge had them as a dominant race, so let's do something different.
...Wait a minute, how do you know about Malebolge?Because you told us.

Eden is the "world" of my Malebolge setting. Humanity was literally the dominant race (well, they shared the world with dwarves) until an Aelfar colony-fleet showed up, they allowed the elves to settle, and then the dwarves and elves got into a war that blew the whole planet up, Fallout meets Mournland style.

Honest Tiefling

2017-06-11, 01:15 PM

Like I said: players, I don't need to worry about. I can't get anyone to let me play, never mind to let me DM.

Try recruiting here. I doubt you'll have many issues, unless you aren't comfortable with a roll20/PbP game.

I tend to forget about druids...only race that bugs me more than clerics... but, as mages who tap into astral ley-lines, that might work. Or I might just replace them with a Wizard tradition with similar "nature magic", like my Sidhe Scholar. Still, thanks for the suggestion.

Wizards in the literal sense. I think this is a fine comprimise, as players could be a cleric or a druid without going against the vision of the setting.

...Wait a minute, how do you know about Malebolge?

I was quoting you earlier. You also have a link in your signature.

Is this a "fix this right now" comment, or a "this'll be good to address when you start focusing on expanding each races" comment? Sorry, just a little hard to read.

Probably my fault. This is more of a comment that a paragraph for an entire race and culture is a bit hard to judge. I do like the direction it's heading in and I do think others will as well, but it is very brief due to word limits.

What I meant is that the Aelfar are not united as a people; there are lots of different aelfar communities scattered across the stars, but they don't keep in touch all that much. They're dimly aware that they're out there, but there's no galatic-spanning united empire, if that follows?

Also a good approach, letting more chances to actually play a race.

In comparison, they're much more open and positive with their non-aelfar neighbors - the Xixchil-expies in particular are close buddies.

I'd expand on this. I do like the idea of humans being more of a background race for once, but that does mean the relationship between aliens needs to be fleshed out.

Again, is this a question you want answered right now, or something to keep in mind for future development?

Either or. This isn't meant to be an interrogation, just a discussion of ideas.

Yes, the "not overwhelmed by pain" thing is a positive trait - it's not so much that they don't feel it as it's not as debilitating. It's basically the fluff explanation for the "1/day, you can avoid being killed by a fatal blow" racial power, I forget what it's called off the top of my head.

That makes more sense. A race trait write up might be interesting as well. (And some people might be intrigued.)

Family structure... I'll need to think about it, but, honestly, my first reaction is that it's basically a "strength is hot" cluster-frak: strong traggen can have any other traggen then want, so long as that traggen wants to be had, and usually, if they're strong, that traggen is happy. Very anarchic polyamorous cluster-units; half warband, half harem.

Which means that unless Traggen have a natural inclination to bisexuality, that would raise the question of if there are bachelor herds of Traggen, much like what happens with deer and sea lions.

I picture them as basically "good-looking orcs"; dark green skin (turning black in the Dworg), strongly built, taller than the human norm, claw-like nails, pronounced canines, rugged but not ugly features.

That makes sense. I wonder if the Aelfar are considered attractive by human standards. It would be amusing that things that look 'human' are actually made to appeal to the Traggen instead.

A D&Dification of "techno-barbarian"; someone who manages to maintain some semblance of high-tech equipment without properly understanding how it works or having a culture that seems like it should support it. For example, the Yuat'ja, who have a Stone Age hunter's style tribal culture, complete with emphasis on honor through bloodshed and the glory of melee combat, and yet also have energy blasters, invisibility cloaks and spacetravel.

That...Raises a large question. How are magical/technological objects made and obtained?

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-11, 03:51 PM

Re: Herobizkit
Hmm, I don't know if I want to make them quite that much of a background race, but that suggestion that their unique ability is to interbreed with any of the other PC races on that list - and that this makes them very valuable as diplomats, courtesans and slaves - is definitely something I'll integrate. It's actually a trait that Malebolgian humans, so it reinforces that the two settings take part in the same universe.

Re: Millstone85
Hmm... you've given me an idea on sorting out this matter. In Malebolge, the "pseudo-divines" already work by contacting entities from other planes - powerful fiends, archangels, archfae, primordials, and so on. And, really, those are just "small gods" anyway.

What if, in "Starraider", the same principle is tweaked?

What I'm seeing is that the setting's gods are "Immortals"; entities who have attained not merely eternal life, but also a nature something like your Tulpas. People deify them, and that belief, mingled with their own powerful magical aura, becomes a specialized form of magic that the right invocations can tap. Clerics are essentially an evolution of warlocks, charged with not only serving the will of their patron Immortal, but also directly encouraging others to worship that Immortal.

Even better, even if all of the setting's gods work this way, there's still multiple ways of worship. Most of the galaxy knows a "standard" pantheon, of Immortals who sought ascendancy and gained power. But the denizens of the Aurian Empire worship a pantheon of God-Emperors, Felinoid clerics worship different aspects of their Clan-Mother depending on their Domain (in essence, each Felinoid Clan-Mother is a pantheon of one), and Lotusians? They don't worship anything as far as anyone can tell, but they talk of communing with and shifting the galactic leylines, which fits their theme of being the "galactic gardeners".

Re: Honest Tiefling
I actually can't play on Roll20: I tried once. My connection freaked out about it so hard I was connected for maybe 5 minutes out of every 60.

See above for my latest thoughts on bringing proper Clerics into the setting.

Well, honestly, if none of the barebones concepts are immediately screaming "this is awful!", I'd love to pick one or two and focus on starting to expand it with other lore like politics, culture, reproduction, whatever. I just need some poster interested in picking a race and getting started... hint, hint.

The trait I was referring to is Relentless Endurance; as I said, Traggen are literally "take half-orc crunch, make your character, you're done". My Scro homebrew crunch starts with Relentless Endurance and Powerful Build, off the top of my head, so that preserves the "these are a related species" angle.

Bisexuality is probably more common amongst traggen than the human norm - I have my issues with Golarion, but acknowledging there are alternate sexualities or non-binary genders doesn't bother me - but, yes, "bachelor herds" are a thing, too. Hell, where do you think the typical traggen warband/adventuring party gets its start?

The construction of magic items? Basically, same as any construction; you need resources, and individuals with the knowledge and skills to make them. "Magewrights" make up the bulk of such producers, Artificers are an adventuring analogue to the master magewrights. Traggen... are not a very scholarly people. Think the Orks of 40K; there are traggen artificers and magewrights, but it's more instinct and impulse than study and discipline, so what they produce has a very obvious "slapped together" aesthetic, although that's partially cultural, too.

Honest Tiefling

2017-06-11, 03:57 PM

That's weird. I've never had that issue with roll20. Maybe some tech nerd can come fix that for you.

As for going over the races, I don't mind helping at all. I just gotta know if you are doing a 'DnD in SPAAAAAAAAAACCCCCE' with bits of pulp Sci-Fi thrown in or a more Sci-Fi approach. I don't think there's anything wrong with either, but I do think that you should probably pick one or the other.

Lord Raziere

2017-06-11, 04:17 PM

There's the ever infamous "Lesbian Lizzard" a species of Lizard which is entirely female, reproduces asexually, but still requires sexual stimulus to initiate the process. Hence, "Lesbian Lizard". I admittedly skimmed, but if your argument against amazonian catwomen is that their reproduction wouldn't make sense we have an Earth Precedent for such a thing. Always remember, Life finds a way.

Actually they're called Whiptail Lizards and I've made a race based on them with all the societal, cultural economic, medical and political problems that would result from such reproduction, just being logical about how it would work and what would turn from the biology. Turns out they wouldn't be as genetically diverse as us, so they'd have to constantly reproduce for quantity rather than quality, constantly keep themselves clean to even more insane degree than us to prevent disease, they'd believe since all offspring are basically genetic clones of their parents that they have the same exact same capabilities and thus the children would inherit the jobs of the parent rightly or wrongly. Of course this constant reproduction leads to the elites of the society viewing the commoners as expendable and overpopulating their planet and thus constantly sending them out to establish colonies or to wage war on other species, the elites themselves would basically be nobles who compete with and probably kill each other to inherit their parents title, or extra elites would be sent out to lead the extra commoners to conquer somewhere else, and die in expendable droves.

So a lesbian lizard alien civilization would in fact be a dystopian oppressive society with an economy based on constant war and being even more obsessed with right of inheritance than any house in Westeros given all the offspring are genetic clones, and have resource problems given that they'd have to evolve from a desert-like planet. the exact opposite of a peaceful free love society of diplomacy. funny that.

Honest Tiefling

2017-06-11, 04:22 PM

...constantly keep themselves clean...

Wouldn't that make things worse, since a low level of contact with disease and other 'dirt' is needed for human immune systems to be healthy? Not to mention they could accidentally breed several strains of super-microbes that are effectively immune to chemical means of disinfection. Or do their immune systems work differently?

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-11, 04:24 PM

That's weird. I've never had that issue with roll20. Maybe some tech nerd can come fix that for you.
No, sadly, it's just a drawback to where I live. Bad enough being Australian - on the list of countries by internet speed, we rank 42nd - but I live in a rural estate, so I'm on satellite connection, which makes things even worse.

As for going over the races, I don't mind helping at all. I just gotta know if you are doing a 'DnD in SPAAAAAAAAAACCCCCE' with bits of pulp Sci-Fi thrown in or a more Sci-Fi approach. I don't think there's anything wrong with either, but I do think that you should probably pick one or the other.
D&D IN SPACE with pulp/80s sci-fi thrown in, for sure. Science fiction isn't a bad thing, but my intentions here are more of a "neo-Spelljammer capable of including analogues to PF's hypertech and Android, Lashunta and Kasatha PC races".

Honest Tiefling

2017-06-11, 04:28 PM

D&D IN SPACE with pulp/80s sci-fi thrown in, for sure. Science fiction isn't a bad thing, but my intentions here are more of a "neo-Spelljammer capable of including analogues to PF's hypertech and Android, Lashunta and Kasatha PC races".

Next question: What are you trying to do differently then PF/Spelljammer? That's not meant to be an insulting question, I just want to know what the setting is supposed to be.

And why don't you throw up a longer write up, I feel like I am grasping at straws without more information.

A lower tech version if you can get people willing is to comprimise with Discord for chat/Google Docs or Spreadsheet for a battle map. Isn't as pretty, but it can get the job done.

Squiddish

2017-06-11, 04:31 PM

Well, if you're going with things beyond player races, it would be nice to have some really alien aliens. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StarfishAliens) The plant aliens that seem to currently be between names and some of the others fall in that area, but a lot of these fall under rubber forehead aliens (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RubberForeheadAliens) (not that this is a bad thing, it would be ridiculously hard to accurately play something that isn't even life as we know it).

Some viable options include:

True hive mind (Completely decentralized--no queen, or at least not controlled by a queen)
Cephalopoids
Silicon based life
Artificial life
Worms
Amorphous beings

You could combine these. Silicon and artificial generally means robots, which could be worms or cephalopoids.

One option is a swarm of nanobots or microorganisms, falling under both true hive mind and amorphous beings.

Lord Raziere

2017-06-11, 04:34 PM

Wouldn't that make things worse, since a low level of contact with disease and other 'dirt' is needed for human immune systems to be healthy? Not to mention they could accidentally breed several strains of super-microbes that are effectively immune to chemical means of disinfection. Or do their immune systems work differently?

Oh they fear that as well, but they can't stop. Their scientists are just trying as hard as they can to come up with a solutions to stop those, it just hasn't happened yet. currently focusing on developing nano-robots for those.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-11, 05:05 PM

Next question: What are you trying to do differently then PF/Spelljammer? That's not meant to be an insulting question, I just want to know what the setting is supposed to be.
I... honestly don't know how to answer this. PF's space-fantasy elements just don't really click with me - they feel more like a PF analogue to D20 future than something that supports the "D&D in Space" motif. Spelljammer, I love it for being a non-planar world-hopping setting, but in the end, it's too campy and too obviously "Age of Sail in Space" in its motif.

I... really don't know how to explain what the setting is supposed to be. It's D&D under alien skies. Where ancient ruins may orbit dying suns and pirate kings gather the loot of a thousand worlds, ripe for the plucking. It's a place where science and sorcery are indistinguishable and often equally mysterious, where psychic elf-like matriarchs command mind-thralled hulking space orc slaves, and mechanical beings wield swords enwreathed in the same elemental fire that gives them life and soul, and brave adventurers travel between the stars on glimmer-scaled dragons whilst brandishing a sword in one hand and a pistol-like laser-wand in the other.

...Sorry, I really can't answer it better than that.

And why don't you throw up a longer write up, I feel like I am grasping at straws without more information.
A longer write-up of what? The setting? A race? Can you be a little more specific, please?

Honest Tiefling

2017-06-11, 05:08 PM

I... really don't know how to explain what the setting is supposed to be. It's D&D under alien skies. Where ancient ruins may orbit dying suns and pirate kings gather the loot of a thousand worlds, ripe for the plucking. It's a place where science and sorcery are indistinguishable and often equally mysterious, where psychic elf-like matriarchs command mind-thralled hulking space orc slaves, and mechanical beings wield swords enwreathed in the same elemental fire that gives them life and soul, and brave adventurers travel between the stars on glimmer-scaled dragons whilst brandishing a sword in one hand and a pistol-like laser-wand in the other.

That seems like a fine explanation to me. It is epic DnD in space with pulpy elements. Science is a thing, but it appears to be as mysterious as magic, so certain modern elements such as industrialization might not exist or be bizarre in their application. Or am I wrong?

A longer write-up of what? The setting? A race? Can you be a little more specific, please?

...Well, ****. I thought I put the word race in there, I'm sorry. If it's okay, let's tackle these races one at a time. We're already having massive quote walls.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-11, 05:17 PM

That seems like a fine explanation to me. It is epic DnD in space with pulpy elements. Science is a thing, but it appears to be as mysterious as magic, so certain modern elements such as industrialization might not exist or be bizarre in their application. Or am I wrong?
No, you basically got it spot on. Science and Sorcery are indistinguishable. Hell, for the most part, Science is Sorcery - technology is more of a trapping/aesthetic over an ultimately magical basis, like Eberron.

For example PF's Androids would fit right into this setting, but, fluff-wise, they're closer to warforged - hyper-advanced golems that have gained free will and independence at the cost of most of the traditional durability of the construct.

...Well, ****. I thought I put the word race in there, I'm sorry. If it's okay, let's tackle these races one at a time. We're already having massive quote walls.
Be happy to! Since you're being so helpful, please, go ahead and pick a race to start discussing - although hengeyokai maybe work better if broken up to constiuent species (kitsunes are different to tanuki which are different to jorogumo).

And that reminds me, the "psychic matriarch" and "fantasy android" are two "space fantasy race niches" to fill at some point, but I'd rather focus on the races listed on the last page first before worrying about that.

Link to race concept post for ease of reference: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22082385&postcount=41

Honest Tiefling

2017-06-11, 05:55 PM

Let's go back to the Aelfar, since they're first on the list. You mentioned they had multiple empires/colonies?

Also, a question: You don't want the Age of Sail feeling of Spelljammer, so how does this setting fix that issue? I ask because it could be a political thing, which would influence the history and culture of the races.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-11, 07:10 PM

Let's go back to the Aelfar, since they're first on the list. You mentioned they had multiple empires/colonies?
Heh! You decided to go full easy mode here, huh? Alright, let me see what I can share - this is going to be very stream-of-consciousness, because I tend to actually lose track of my ideas if I stop and think about them too much...

The Aelfar will tell you that the Sundering of the Exodus, when different colony-fleets went different ways after fleeing the death of their homeworld, was born of outside circumstances. And, this is true to an extent; space-storms and the like did play a large role in causing lone ships or whole groups to break away from the main fleet as it traveled towards its current domicile. But the truth is that a large part of the blame lies in aelfar arrogance and the simple fact that long-range communication was never a priority for them. By the time they managed to get a proper star-spanning network going, those who'd gotten lost along the way were scattered into the darkness of space; the "mainstream" community doesn't even know that any of these "strays" managed to survive.

Not that they'd care much, because even now, the aelfar are not exactly a united people. That's what happens when you're an entire race of aristocrats - there's literally no class divisions as such amongst the aelfar. You have the necromancer elves, who are basically the nobles, and you have the various engineered slave-beasts, which are, quite obviously, not going to be a political presence - how often does your computer get to vote on your income tax?

Incidentally, this means that "Aelfar Space" is a great origin point for "minor" PC races; experiments in more independent/intelligent slaves that may have failed, or worked too well, or even worked out as intended.

Aelfar society is a byzantine affair - the trope that comes to mind is "Deadly, Decadent Court". Aelfar group themselves in very large extended family units - Clans, Houses, whatever you want to call them - and these are essentially nations unto themselves that conduct both internal and external intrigue, mostly against other aelfar Houses.

Yeah, there are shades of drow culture in this, but it's essential that they're not as mindlessly obsessed with backstabbing treachery as the drow - they're not desperate to please an insane demon-goddess, after all.

Aelfar Houses are matriarchal, mostly out of symbolism: their cultural ideology is rooted in the concept that they are masters of life and death. As women, by giving birth, produce new life, they are seen as exemplifying this mastery. However, the active embrace of flesh-warping and biomancy has...influenced this. There are male House Heads... but, achieiving that position requires a sacrifice. To become able to access this highest of social ranks - in a nutshell, aelfar culture is like "male mayors are fine, male senate members are fine, but only a woman can be president" - an aelfar male has to undergo a ritualized "ascension" process, which boils down to either being transformed into a woman and undergoing a complete and successful pregnancy, or altering their anatomy to undergo a pregnancy whilst male. A House Head literally cannot claim the seat unless they've given birth at least once, and some of the more ambitious male House Heads do so more than once, for whatever reason.

Incidentally, in a "splatbook writeup" of the setting, there would be a huge sidebar here stating "yes, this is potentially some creepy crud; consider your players' feelings and adjust this aspect of the lore to suit your table!"

Despite what one might think, Aelfar culture is very much not a necrocracy. That's not to say sapient aelfar undead don't exist, but, culturally, they're inferior: undeath is seen as the route of a failure, someone who lacks the mojo to preserve their life any other way. Aelfar liches and mummies are forbidden by law from holding positions of political power and influence; an aelfar who chooses to become a lich is a very obsessed sage or even someone sentenced to this fate as the ultimate punishment.

Aelfarian longevity is assisted by their mastery of necromancy and flesh-warping. Of course, culturally, there are limits to what is acceptable; feasting on souls to sustain your youth is pretty much the height of unacceptable even to the most jaded aelfar House Head. Likewise, body-jacking younger aelfar is a hideous crime. You don't get to do that stuff. Period.

"Clone-jacking", on the other hand, where a young, soul-less body is produced in a uterine replicator for the explicit purpose of being a new host to an old soul, is legal. But "rejuvenated" aelfar are legally considered entirely new people by aelfar law. This means that such an aelfar cannot retain anything from their past life except maybe their membership in their old House, and even that can be renounced if they desire it or their House doesn't want them back. It's a brand new start... in every possible way. Many aelfar who undergo "rebirth" in that way don't even both to make an identical clone, to reinforce that by doing so, their old life is ending. New faces, new appearances - maybe even new genders, if they feel like it - it's rather like Gallifreyian Regeneration in Dr. Who, only without the ability to carry on the previous existence's life.

The Aelfar have a... complicated... relationship with the outside universe. A lot of their focus is directed inwards, for obvious reasons. But external diplomacy is a thing for many reasons. Outside factors can not only be a potential edge in the "great game" they play amongst their own kind, but the simple truth is that the novelty amuses and excites the Aelfar. After all, if you're going to live for eons, why do the same thing over and over again?

Novelty is a big commodity for these necromantic elves, and that really shouldn't be surprising when you think about it.

For obvious reasons, the "Xixixians" (and I desperately need help with a better name) attract a certain paternal fondness from the Aelfar, if with some condescending overtones. They see a kindred spirit and the bugs are eager to learn from the masters, so tutelage and trade are common.

Traggens amuse the aelfar, who see them as perfect playthings; easily bent to heel by enchantment spells if brute force is necessary, easily goaded by the skilled diplomat, and mindlessly violent enough to be huge fun as the war against each other, battle-beasts or anyone the aelfar sees fit to aim them at - yes, this has strained ties with the galaxy when they realize aelfar houses are behind traggen crusades.

Dworgs really don't like the aelfar, but when they're aware of them, the aelfar actually quite like them. The fact that these are "traggen with brains" intrigues and excites the aelfar, who consider them much better sport. Hells, if I ever do 5e crunch for the Tel-Amhothlan (elf/orc hybrids from Kingdoms of Kalamar), they would fit in perfectly as the fruit of the rare unions when aelfar persuade dworg "rival-friends" to give in to their feelings of Foe Yay. That's not to say there aren't traggen-born Tel-Amhothlan, but they're much rarer, as fewer aelfar see the traggen as being worth coaxing into bed.

Felinoids are similar to the traggen, as far as Aelfar are concerned: deliciously violent and primitive, and so much fun to play with.

Humans are fun; not as viable as sport as the traggen and felinoids, but amusing, and that adaptability has such interesting prospects. Aelfar being aelfar, this interest can range from trading agreements to trying to enslave and experiment upon humans to trying to get humans into bed.

Denizens of the Aurian Empire are mostly rivals, which in the aelfar viewpoint actually makes them valuable friends: testing their mettle against the military might of the Aurian Empire is a good way to while away the centuries.

For the same reason, Quetzalii and their tendency to hate aelfar makes them fun, although most consider them much more boring than dworgs - so prone to ranting about "the light" and all that nonsense.

Snapperjaws are basically slave-stock waiting to be tamed, as far as the aelfar are concerned. They haven't succeeded on a wide scale yet, but they've had results promising enough to keep the "kill them all, they're useless vermin" advocates to an easily ignored minority.

Lotusians make aelfar roll their eyes with their preaching, but the elves do respect the plant-sages. They just don't show it very openly. Still, they admire the lotusian pasion, and their knack for surviving.

Scavvers are... mostly under the aelfar radar. These space elves prefer bio-tech and necro-tech for their gear, so they don't have a lot of interest in the mekanikal artificering of the scavvers. They're not hostile, they just... don't usually interact.

Voidstalkers are a source of keen interest, and their assassins have often had profitable relationships amongst the aelfar Houses.

...And, I've basically run out of steam here, so I'll just leave this for when you return.

Also, a question: You don't want the Age of Sail feeling of Spelljammer, so how does this setting fix that issue? I ask because it could be a political thing, which would influence the history and culture of the races.
Really, my complaint about Spelljammer is the fact that it takes the "space is an ocean" theme too literally. The IEN is basically "the British Empire - but elves!", the Giff are parodies of British soldiers, etc. So, really, so long as the greater meta-culture isn't based on real-world cultures during the Age of Sail, that's not much of a problem as I'm seeing it.

Honest Tiefling

2017-06-12, 02:46 PM

Not that they'd care much, because even now, the aelfar are not exactly a united people. That's what happens when you're an entire race of aristocrats - there's literally no class divisions as such amongst the aelfar. You have the necromancer elves, who are basically the nobles, and you have the various engineered slave-beasts, which are, quite obviously, not going to be a political presence - how often does your computer get to vote on your income tax?

Aelfar society is a byzantine affair - the trope that comes to mind is "Deadly, Decadent Court". Aelfar group themselves in very large extended family units - Clans, Houses, whatever you want to call them - and these are essentially nations unto themselves that conduct both internal and external intrigue, mostly against other aelfar Houses.

These two quotes are what confuses me. Do you mean that every Aelfar has equal rank, has equal rank from birth (with deeds deciding who is higher/lower), or that everyone is a noble? The Deadly Decadent Court tropes usually work with the idea of jockeying for status, which doesn't work if everyone has the same rank. Prestige might be a better thing to jockey for, which would lead to informal social standing.

Incidentally, this means that "Aelfar Space" is a great origin point for "minor" PC races; experiments in more independent/intelligent slaves that may have failed, or worked too well, or even worked out as intended.

I quite like this idea, because you ALWAYS get that one guy who wants to RP something strange, and this means they aren't immersion breaking. I'd consider making a few examples for players to choose from later down the line.

Yeah, there are shades of drow culture in this, but it's essential that they're not as mindlessly obsessed with backstabbing treachery as the drow - they're not desperate to please an insane demon-goddess, after all.

Drow vary a bit from edition and setting. I'd elaborate more on this point, because it'll show how far the Aelfar are willing to go to get a leg up and how insane their politics are. (Warning: I don't like drow)

Aelfar Houses are matriarchal, mostly out of symbolism: their cultural ideology is rooted in the concept that they are masters of life and death. As women, by giving birth, produce new life, they are seen as exemplifying this mastery. However, the active embrace of flesh-warping and biomancy has...influenced this. There are male House Heads... but, achieiving that position requires a sacrifice. To become able to access this highest of social ranks - in a nutshell, aelfar culture is like "male mayors are fine, male senate members are fine, but only a woman can be president" - an aelfar male has to undergo a ritualized "ascension" process, which boils down to either being transformed into a woman and undergoing a complete and successful pregnancy, or altering their anatomy to undergo a pregnancy whilst male. A House Head literally cannot claim the seat unless they've given birth at least once, and some of the more ambitious male House Heads do so more than once, for whatever reason.

I sorta like this, but I'm a sucker for fantasy and sci-fi exploring new territory. I would actually say if you are going to include this, expand on it. What personality traits are attributed to men and women? Are these men treated as full fledged women, or do they occupy a third gender role? What if other people felt like being a different gender for non-political reasons, temporary or not?

Despite what one might think, Aelfar culture is very much not a necrocracy. That's not to say sapient aelfar undead don't exist, but, culturally, they're inferior: undeath is seen as the route of a failure, someone who lacks the mojo to preserve their life any other way. Aelfar liches and mummies are forbidden by law from holding positions of political power and influence; an aelfar who chooses to become a lich is a very obsessed sage or even someone sentenced to this fate as the ultimate punishment.

Why would you bestow lichdom on someone with every reason to attack you? Perhaps a lesser form should be used, one that is...More controllable. So they're still useful, but not about to go on a rampage. I think inventing a new form of Undeath seems quite fitting for these guys.

Since Aelfar seems to be based on the norse word for elf, what if they were like Dragur and confined (magically, physically or otherwise) to a particular location? They can be useful, but the chances of them going on a rampage are minimized since they can't get up and leave. I don't know how confined Dragur were, but it's a start.

Aelfarian longevity is assisted by their mastery of necromancy and flesh-warping. Of course, culturally, there are limits to what is acceptable; feasting on souls to sustain your youth is pretty much the height of unacceptable even to the most jaded aelfar House Head. Likewise, body-jacking younger aelfar is a hideous crime. You don't get to do that stuff. Period.

What about jacking a young body of a enemy race as a spy?

"Clone-jacking", on the other hand, where a young, soul-less body is produced in a uterine replicator for the explicit purpose of being a new host to an old soul, is legal. But "rejuvenated" aelfar are legally considered entirely new people by aelfar law. This means that such an aelfar cannot retain anything from their past life except maybe their membership in their old House, and even that can be renounced if they desire it or their House doesn't want them back. It's a brand new start... in every possible way. Many aelfar who undergo "rebirth" in that way don't even both to make an identical clone, to reinforce that by doing so, their old life is ending. New faces, new appearances - maybe even new genders, if they feel like it - it's rather like Gallifreyian Regeneration in Dr. Who, only without the ability to carry on the previous existence's life.

Do their personalities also change, much like Dr. Who, or are they mentally the same?

The Aelfar have a... complicated... relationship with the outside universe. A lot of their focus is directed inwards, for obvious reasons. But external diplomacy is a thing for many reasons. Outside factors can not only be a potential edge in the "great game" they play amongst their own kind, but the simple truth is that the novelty amuses and excites the Aelfar. After all, if you're going to live for eons, why do the same thing over and over again?

Makes sense. Perhaps mix it with a obsession to master things, which might explain Aelfar artisans.

For obvious reasons, the "Xixixians" (and I desperately need help with a better name) attract a certain paternal fondness from the Aelfar, if with some condescending overtones. They see a kindred spirit and the bugs are eager to learn from the masters, so tutelage and trade are common.

What role do these Xixixians play? Are they pets, children, toys?

Also, Kixians?

Traggens amuse the aelfar, who see them as perfect playthings; easily bent to heel by enchantment spells if brute force is necessary, easily goaded by the skilled diplomat, and mindlessly violent enough to be huge fun as the war against each other, battle-beasts or anyone the aelfar sees fit to aim them at - yes, this has strained ties with the galaxy when they realize aelfar houses are behind traggen crusades.

If you do not have Traggen gladitorial matches, I'd be sad. They could breed Traggen like people breed dogs, making several distinct lineages with weird features.

Dworgs really don't like the aelfar, but when they're aware of them, the aelfar actually quite like them. The fact that these are "traggen with brains" intrigues and excites the aelfar, who consider them much better sport. Hells, if I ever do 5e crunch for the Tel-Amhothlan (elf/orc hybrids from Kingdoms of Kalamar), they would fit in perfectly as the fruit of the rare unions when aelfar persuade dworg "rival-friends" to give in to their feelings of Foe Yay. That's not to say there aren't traggen-born Tel-Amhothlan, but they're much rarer, as fewer aelfar see the traggen as being worth coaxing into bed.

This...Could be difficult territory for some, given the connotations. I'd consider giving some warning on this as well. Through what if a Aelfar wanted to high jack a Dworg/Aelfar hybrid body to commit some act they're really not supposed to?

Denizens of the Aurian Empire are mostly rivals, which in the aelfar viewpoint actually makes them valuable friends: testing their mettle against the military might of the Aurian Empire is a good way to while away the centuries.

I would assume this could lead to a bloody and unpleasant affair. Or do the Aelfar challenge the Aurians to duels? I would find it amusing if the Aelfar were trying to bribe Aurians into duelling them with a fleet or go to a planet and unleashing different soldiers. Criminals and the dishonored Aurians could basically be sacrified to amuse the Aelfar to stop an outright war.

Lotusians make aelfar roll their eyes with their preaching, but the elves do respect the plant-sages. They just don't show it very openly. Still, they admire the lotusian pasion, and their knack for surviving.

I imagine their bodies would be of particular interest, both scientifically and in bed.

Hope some of that helped.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-12, 03:50 PM

So many comments! Allow me to reply to them... :D

These two quotes are what confuses me. Do you mean that every Aelfar has equal rank, has equal rank from birth (with deeds deciding who is higher/lower), or that everyone is a noble? The Deadly Decadent Court tropes usually work with the idea of jockeying for status, which doesn't work if everyone has the same rank. Prestige might be a better thing to jockey for, which would lead to informal social standing.
What I mean is that every Aelfar is effectively a noble when compared to non-aelfar. Basically... the aelfar social pyramid is a fairly simple construct; the small top section reads 'aelfar', the larger bottom section reads 'everybody else' - although that's a gross simplification, because A: there's an incredibly fine-tuned array of nuanced social ranks governing the ranks of the aelfar themselves, and B: it's possible to get "honorary aelfar status" for a loyal minion or even an entertaining wild-card.

In a nutshell... there's no such thing as an "aelfar dirt farmer" within aelfar space. Even the lowliest aelfar still probably has slaves tending to their needs and regards themselves as a noble in comparison to other races. Impoverished patrician instead of a simple peasant, you follow me?

I quite like this idea, because you ALWAYS get that one guy who wants to RP something strange, and this means they aren't immersion breaking. I'd consider making a few examples for players to choose from later down the line.
Oh, yeah, sure. There's lots of room for minor races in this setting. Heck, one thing I've considered is that there's arace that specializes in abducting denizens of "lesser" (no spelljammer tech) worlds, which could be used for new races or even Malebolgian PCs in this setting.

Drow vary a bit from edition and setting. I'd elaborate more on this point, because it'll show how far the Aelfar are willing to go to get a leg up and how insane their politics are. (Warning: I don't like drow)
I didn't exactly mean anything by it. I was just acknowledging that, yes, some people are going to look at a matriarchal culture of black magic-using, slave-commanding, scheming, bored aristocrats and immediately say "they're drow!"

I sorta like this, but I'm a sucker for fantasy and sci-fi exploring new territory. I would actually say if you are going to include this, expand on it. What personality traits are attributed to men and women? Are these men treated as full fledged women, or do they occupy a third gender role? What if other people felt like being a different gender for non-political reasons, temporary or not?
Firstly, I just want to say that I'm glad I haven't offended you. Secondly... I actually don't have any idea for personality traits associated with each gender; are you okay with discussing possibilities? Thirdly, socially, I'm tempted to say that "mother-men" make up a third gender role; really, we need to more firmly distinguish just what the gender roles in society are. Finally, if an aelfar wants to swap genders for any reason, they can do so and get not so much as a second look: there's a ritual for males to females who want to claim the right to be a house head, because that's ceremonial, but the aelfar are master flesh-crafters who have centuries to explore the universe. Changing gender can be as casual as changing coats if they feel like it.

Why would you bestow lichdom on someone with every reason to attack you? Perhaps a lesser form should be used, one that is...More controllable. So they're still useful, but not about to go on a rampage. I think inventing a new form of Undeath seems quite fitting for these guys.

Since Aelfar seems to be based on the norse word for elf, what if they were like Dragur and confined (magically, physically or otherwise) to a particular location? They can be useful, but the chances of them going on a rampage are minimized since they can't get up and leave. I don't know how confined Dragur were, but it's a start.
Good point on that... in fact, there was a weaker lich called the Vassalich in Ravenloft; maybe that'd be good for a mechanical basis for the Draugr?

What about jacking a young body of a enemy race as a spy?
That's usually a different matter; such spies typically have their old body preserved in stasis and have to return to it in order to retake the place in society. Body-jacking foreign races for immortality is not normal, because doing so is to forfeit all place in aelfar society - it's like rebirth, but even worse, because a reborn aelfar is still given the basic rights as an aelfar, whilst a reincarnated one is an outsider who has to work to try and become an honorary aelfar first.

Do their personalities also change, much like Dr. Who, or are they mentally the same?
It depends on the individual. Some stubbornly maintain their old selves, some allow themselves some level of change, others allow themselves to undergo a total reinvention of who they were.

Makes sense. Perhaps mix it with a obsession to master things, which might explain Aelfar artisans.
Good idea!

What role do these Xixixians play? Are they pets, children, toys?

Also, Kixians?
Somewhere between students and children would be my kneejerk summary. Also, Kixian sounds pretty good! Thanks!

If you do not have Traggen gladitorial matches, I'd be sad. They could breed Traggen like people breed dogs, making several distinct lineages with weird features.
Heh, yes, the gladiatorial combat is a thing. Breeding distinct lineages could work... maybe even that'd be the setting's origin for the equivalent of goblinoids?

This...Could be difficult territory for some, given the connotations. I'd consider giving some warning on this as well. Through what if a Aelfar wanted to high jack a Dworg/Aelfar hybrid body to commit some act they're really not supposed to?
I'm sorry, but... I don't really understand your point here? I'm basically saying that aelfar find dworgs so entertaining that, for some, it manifests into a full-fledged love-affair. They would never rape "their" dworg, though courtship is definitely unusual to an outside perspective... Slap, Slap, Kiss is the first trope to come to mind.

And body-snatching a tel-amhothlan would be a huge crime, as much as doing the same to another aelfar. Ironically, as racist as they kind of are, the aelfar belief is that any creature with legitimate blood ties to the aelfar is another aelfar, and that includes in terms of legal protection. Aelfarian half-elves and tel-amhothlans are as much aelfar as purebloods, at least in mainstream culture.

I would assume this could lead to a bloody and unpleasant affair. Or do the Aelfar challenge the Aurians to duels? I would find it amusing if the Aelfar were trying to bribe Aurians into duelling them with a fleet or go to a planet and unleashing different soldiers. Criminals and the dishonored Aurians could basically be sacrified to amuse the Aelfar to stop an outright war.
What I mean is, like the T'au Empire in Warhammer 40,000, the Aurian Emire has a belief that its manifest destiny is to conquer and "enlighten" the universe. They go through periods of alternating diplomacy/realpolitik and outright expansion. These latter times are the most interesting to aelfar, to the point they have actually saved numerous worlds and lesser species by appearing out of nowhere to fight the Aurians back - not because they cared about the politics, but simply because the chance to test their soldiers against the universe's other major aggressive military power is too good to pass up.

I imagine their bodies would be of particular interest, both scientifically and in bed.
Heh, especially since getting an asexual, androgynous species that doesn't remotely reproduce in the mammalian fashion is quite a coup d'etat. Although, in fairness, sex and sexuality could be a very enticing (if taboo to confess) "deviancy" that many traveling lotusians (Didn't we rename them something? Paxorians?) secretly succumb to...

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-12, 06:26 PM

Just had this thought and felt I should share it...

In the setting of "Star-Raiders", I think the most defining definition would be "Points of Light" in the style of Warhammer 40,000: there are great empires whose politicking shapes the future of the universe, but even in the territory of those empires, authority can be a loose matter. Basically, most of the universe is lawless frontier territory, either due to corruption/indifference from imperial masters or due to simply not falling under the territorial banner of any great faction.

Essentially, "World of Adventure" is the defining setting trope here, as in 4e's Nentir Vale setting: the only difference between the corrupt cityscapes and the lawless wilderness is just what faces the danger wears.

Building on this, there's a very distinct hierarchy to racial presence in this setting. Think of it like... Mass Effect! You have the Council Races (Asari/Salarians/Turians/Humans) who dictate policy for the galaxy as a whole, the Citadel Races who obey the Council Races but receive protection for it, and the Outcast Races, who neither acknowledge the Council Races' authority nor benefit from their aid.

Take that basic concept, make it less unified and more "diplomacy between different imperial powers", ala Earth prior to World War 1 & 2, and you have the idea of how the galaxy more or less functions here.

For the crude outline of the hierarchy...

Great Race: Any race that possesses spelljamming capabilities and has established a united, organized hold over a significant number of planets or otherwise possesses a strong militaristic influence over the galaxy at large. These are the "big boys" of the galaxy, the policy dictators.

Minor Race: Any race that possesses spelljamming capabilities, but which is not capable of reliably influencing the galaxy at large, whether due to inferior numbers (Lotusians) or inherent disorganization (Traggen).

Lesser Race: Any race that does not possess spelljamming capabilities and thusly is at the bottom of the proverbial foodchain.

Vassal Race: Any Minor or Lesser Race that is directly under the authority and control of a Great Race.

The Aurian Empire is unique in that it's effectively a coalition of Minor Races that've gathered in collective strength under the God-Emperors to the extent of claiming Great Race status.

Honest Tiefling

2017-06-12, 06:33 PM

I'm sorry, but... I don't really understand your point here? I'm basically saying that aelfar find dworgs so entertaining that, for some, it manifests into a full-fledged love-affair. They would never rape "their" dworg, though courtship is definitely unusual to an outside perspective... Slap, Slap, Kiss is the first trope to come to mind.

Through it might be outright forced, I would say that there are enough questionable elements overall to warrant a warning in the final text. These are obviously not nice people, but I think it's better to acknowledge that this is morally grey territory.

I think I am getting what you are saying with the Points of Light, but I'm interested to know how this is accomplished. This is an era with presumed FTL travel and communication, so how do you get the lawlessness of certain regions? WH4K does it with the idea (I think, I don't play it) that humanity is essentially decaying and very distracted, as well as reality warping beings randomly showing up to mess with things causing communication issues.

So what has built this world to be in a state where 'border' worlds are more lawless?

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-12, 07:02 PM

Through it might be outright forced, I would say that there are enough questionable elements overall to warrant a warning in the final text. These are obviously not nice people, but I think it's better to acknowledge that this is morally grey territory.
I... think I'm getting at your complaint, your wording is a little hard to follow in the first sentence, but yeah, I agree that even if the couplings are voluntary, a side-bar noting that this is potentially very uncomfortable territory is warranted.

I think I am getting what you are saying with the Points of Light, but I'm interested to know how this is accomplished. This is an era with presumed FTL travel and communication, so how do you get the lawlessness of certain regions? WH4K does it with the idea (I think, I don't play it) that humanity is essentially decaying and very distracted, as well as reality warping beings randomly showing up to mess with things causing communication issues.

So what has built this world to be in a state where 'border' worlds are more lawless?
A significant part of it is whilst spelljamming allows for FTL travel, FTL communication isn't so reliable or quick. Not necessarily as bad as in WH40K, where your message to the next solar system might not be heard for 1000 years, but this is definitely not like Star Trek/Wars, where you can speak in real time to somebody on the other side of the galaxy with total ease.

Not helping is that there's no one over-arching galactic civilization. You've got big fish who want to be huge fish and medium fish who want to be big fish; that means war, strife, sabotage, plague and all sorts of other conflicts keep the lines of civilization flexible. Furthermore, the races with power tend to focus that power on their own turf, not on their neighbors.

There's no "Star Knights" who are responsible for keeping some universal justice system and maintaining galactic law and order under the directions of a benevolent universal government here. If you live in vassal space, you've got some local justice-keeping force of some kind, but their resources usually don't stretch enough to cover every single inch at all times, and they definitely don't have jurisdiction over the border.

It's kind of a Wild West situation. Live in the big civilized hotspots, and everything's hunky-dory; police are out and usually not corrupt, so you benefit. Live towards the frontier, and it might be a long time before the sheriff visits, so you better be prepared to look after yourself in case they aren't there when you need them. Live in the no-man's lands? Then out here, there's no justice, there's just you.

Hell, it's why adventurers flourish; same way bounty hunters and bandits did in the Wild West.

Does this help explain things?

So, what did you think of the other answers I gave about the Aelfar?

And what race do you want to tackle next when you feel the Aelfar have received enough treatment for the moment?

Honest Tiefling

2017-06-12, 07:35 PM

I wanted to tackle that issue, in case it would prohibit certain aspects of the world.

The idea that Aelfar are all pampered nobles is I think a good one, because you often get that in other settings without an explanation of how such wealth got generated.

As for the Aelfar, I personally like where they are going. If gender is going to be important, it would matter more then 'women good, men bad' that is often seen. You could handwave it that different colonies have different opinions on the matter, especially since people will have different ways of trying to deal with that issue at their table. It would also give Aelfar characters something to gripe about when meeting their own kin.

However, two points I want to address: The Drow of many a setting where socially competent. I get the feeling that since the Aelfar tend to put other races into neat little boxes and assume they'll take on whatever role for their enjoyment, they're going to be naturally sucky at working with members of other species that don't fit with their ideals. Or am I wrong?

Also, I do like the idea that they consider half-Aelfar to be fully members of their race. But this leads to an issue: What happens when these people continue to breed? Is there a cut-off point at which a person is no longer considered Aelfar, even if they have distant Aelfar heritage? How are these half-Aelfar treated?

One idea is that the half-Aelfar are often shuffled into diplomatic roles, since the century-lived leaders are too preoccupied with a complex century long war with the Aurians to figure out their language or their name right now.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-12, 09:06 PM

As for the Aelfar, I personally like where they are going. If gender is going to be important, it would matter more then 'women good, men bad' that is often seen. You could handwave it that different colonies have different opinions on the matter, especially since people will have different ways of trying to deal with that issue at their table. It would also give Aelfar characters something to gripe about when meeting their own kin.
Here's something I've been thinking: given how adept the aelfar are at flesh-crafting, what if it's not a case of gender roles? What if "Mother" is entirely separate from gender?

With the arts they've developed, these space elves (or space drow, however you prefer to think of them) can twist the natural laws in all sorts of ways. They can reproduce asexually through the magical equivalent of uterine replicators. Hrells, a female aelfar could be a biological father by having the right tools/spells used to fertilize another female's - or a male-mother's - ovum with her genes. Merely being capable of reproducing isn't, in and of itself, important.

Motherhood is sacred to the aelfar. Why? Becoming a mother, which they define as actually carrying a new life to term in one's body and giving birth to it, is a symbol. It's a display of power over life and death, of the courage to undertake the trials of pregnancy, of the fortitude to endure the pains of gestation and birth, and the strength to remain capable of active despite so heavy a burden.

In essence, it's not that the aelfar believe "women are better", it's that "mothers make better leaders". By undergoing this strictly defined take on motherhood, an aelfar is showing that she - or he - has the right stuff to be a good leader.

Motherhood doesn't automatically qualify you to be leader. But it is an essential component of the qualifications to be a leader. Like... having gone through the trials of pregnancy and birth is akin to having a diploma; it doesn't mean you'll get the job, but it does make you far more attractive than the candidate who didn't finish high school, you get what I'm saying?

However, two points I want to address: The Drow of many a setting where socially competent. I get the feeling that since the Aelfar tend to put other races into neat little boxes and assume they'll take on whatever role for their enjoyment, they're going to be naturally sucky at working with members of other species that don't fit with their ideals. Or am I wrong?
Yeah, pretty much; the aelfar aren't exactly your diplomatic race. Probably better to try a human or a lotusian if that's your thing.

Also, I do like the idea that they consider half-Aelfar to be fully members of their race. But this leads to an issue: What happens when these people continue to breed? Is there a cut-off point at which a person is no longer considered Aelfar, even if they have distant Aelfar heritage? How are these half-Aelfar treated?
Half-aelfar are a true-breeding race, and the aelfar blood is dominant - one part Eberron's treatment of half-elves, one part a logical side effect of all that necromantic and biomantic stuff the space-elves do. So, "breeding out" the aelfar takes a lot of sustained effort - 10 or so generations without ever mating with either another half-aelfar or a pureblood aelfar.

Even then, the smallest drop of aelfar blood is something their biomantic devices can tap into. One can petition an aelfar clan for membership by having your dormant aelfar heritage reactivated, switching your race to the appropriate halfbreed with the aid of their geno-machines.

...Of course, you don't want to make such a petition lightly, because if you don't have aelfar ancestry, the process will kill you in a very nasty wy.

One idea is that the half-Aelfar are often shuffled into diplomatic roles, since the century-lived leaders are too preoccupied with a complex century long war with the Aurians to figure out their language or their name right now.
Heh, yeah, although the tel-amhothlans might not be quite so good at it as their human-blooded equivalents, half-aelfar do make much better diplomats as a whole than aelfar tend to.

Honest Tiefling

2017-06-13, 03:47 PM

I sorta like the idea that the Aelfar are both or neither gender as they please, and they might be outright dismissive of any culture that ties sex and gender together, since they're pretty much living proof that doesn't have to be the case.

The idea that motherhood is tied to leadership qualities does make sense. I guess I like the idea of dropping a mother-leader onto the party who identifies, acts, and looks male. What, men can't be mothers? Oh right, you're from a less advanced species *scoff*. You poor things.

Have the Aelfar tried to uplift anything? That seems up their alley somehow.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-13, 04:41 PM

I sorta like the idea that the Aelfar are both or neither gender as they please, and they might be outright dismissive of any culture that ties sex and gender together, since they're pretty much living proof that doesn't have to be the case.
Heh, as our host's own webcomic lampoons, D&D elves are traditionally seen as androgynous; the Aelfar just take it up a notch or two in terms of functionality.

The idea that motherhood is tied to leadership qualities does make sense. I guess I like the idea of dropping a mother-leader onto the party who identifies, acts, and looks male. What, men can't be mothers? Oh right, you're from a less advanced species *scoff*. You poor things.
Yeah, plus, when you really think bout it, conventional gender roles don't make any sense for a species adept enough and jaded enough that they can switch between genders as they see it.

Have the Aelfar tried to uplift anything? That seems up their alley somehow.
I was about to say "no, but that's a good hook for a lesser/minor race", but then I stopped and thought... what bout the Kixians? Like, they may have acquired sapience on their own, but what if it's the Aelfar who've nurtured their culture's growth, accelerated their mastery over biotech, and provided them with the keys to spacetravel?

Heck, maybe the Kixians are actually the legacy of one lost aelfar colony, who created them and then died off whilst they were still in a comparatively primitive state? The aelfar houses thusly consider the Kixians to be "adoptive children" of a sort?

Honest Tiefling

2017-06-13, 05:41 PM

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-13, 06:19 PM

Well...You know what you said about half-Aelfar? Either they are accepted as Aelfar (or children of the Aelfar) because they were created, or someone snuck in some Aelfar genes for whatever reason. I get the feeling these guys are very much 'A wizardbio-mancer did it'. So they might BE part Aelfar in a very strange sense.

What do the Kixians think of their surrogate parents?

Hmm... I'm not really sure, honestly. I definitely feel there would be a strong appreciation for them, and respect as teachers, but they shouldn't be mirror-images of them, because I want to do homage to the more useful parts of the Xixchil who inspired them - I'll put that down below.

So, do you think maybe we're ready to transition from talking about the Aelfar to discussing the Kixians? Or are there more things we need to establish for these space-dark-elves?

Original Xixchil Fluff: Taken from Spelljammer: The Complete Spacefarer's Handbook

Xixchil are six-limbed insectoid beings with body structures much like that of a praying mantis. Their forward limbs are long and hook-like, with sharp retractable blades, while their center pair of limbs are smaller, and are often fitted with delicate mechanical manipulators.

The xixchil decorate themselves through surgical modification (see the Body Manipulation special proficiency described later). A typical xixchil will have gems, jewels, and precious metals fitted to its exo-skeleton and formed into exquisite and unique shapes.

The overriding xixchil philosophy is "survival of the fittest." Each individual is expected to improve itself through study and surgical modification. Xixchil surgeons can accomplish amazing transformations, allowing each xixchil to be a nearly unique being.

This philosophy extends to xixchil morality as well. An individual's allegiance is first to itself, then to its family, and finally to society. Xixchil adventurers will sometimes accord their party-mates the status of "family," but the xixchil are rarely willing to sacrifice themselves to help even then.

Adventuring xixchil wander the universe, seeking ever more prestige through experience and discovering more and more utilitarian "treasures." Xixchil aesthetics are much different from those of humans and demihumans, however. The xixchil find as much beauty in an efficient killing machine as a dwarf does in a well-fashioned piece of jewelry.

Xixchil MM Entry: http://www.lomion.de/cmm/xixchil.php

Honest Tiefling

2017-06-13, 07:00 PM

Hmm... I'm not really sure, honestly. I definitely feel there would be a strong appreciation for them, and respect as teachers, but they shouldn't be mirror-images of them, because I want to do homage to the more useful parts of the Xixchil who inspired them - I'll put that down below.

Well then. I can see what you mean by the selfishness being an issue. The teamwork thing is intriguing as well.

How does their bio-tech differ? That's probably an important question. I do like the idea of them being a subserviant race, but with the idea that some resent this division and want to strike out on their own.

So, do you think maybe we're ready to transition from talking about the Aelfar to discussing the Kixians? Or are there more things we need to establish for these space-dark-elves?

I think overall, the Aelfar are fine, except I guess I don't really understand how their war works with the Aurians. Other then that, I think they are established. Only thing left to do is to go over details like family structure, size, dwelling size and layout, clothing, food, and fashion.

Oh. Er. Religion. That...Should probably be a thing. They could do ancestor worship, with their ancestors watching over them through their DNA or something. Maybe a psychic genetic memory if you aren't too married to science.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-13, 07:19 PM

Well then. I can see what you mean by the selfishness being an issue. The teamwork thing is intriguing as well.

How does their bio-tech differ? That's probably an important question. I do like the idea of them being a subserviant race, but with the idea that some resent this division and want to strike out on their own.
Biotech: I was thinking that Kixians, like Xixchil, focus on self-improvement, whereas Aelfar focus on dominance. Basically, an Aelfar would create a living suit of armor to protect them, whilst a Kixian would rather harden her carapace to better serve as armor. Aelfar engineer other organisms to suit their needs, Kixians engineer themselves to suit their needs. Does that make sense?

Subservience: My original intentions is that the Kixians are technically an independent race; they do receive protection from the Aelfar, but, on paper, they're not direct servants of the Aelfar. Think we can preserve that?

On a different topic... in real life, female praying mantids are very much the dominant gender. Given that, and the aelfar's own... gender-related quirks... how might that affect the Kixians? I can kind of see them having ended up similar to the Khepri from Bas-Lag, where only females are sapient and the smaller males are tolerated for breeding but otherwise seen as the animals they are, or them having mutated into a parthenogenic race, or even a blend of the two; there are non-sapient males who can be used to produce genetically different offspring, but who are otherwise regarded as vermin - even being eaten by the females - but the ability for female Kixians to stimulate asexual reproduction in each other, or even inseminate each other, is growing due to bio-tech and cultural moves away from needing to put up with something so embarrassing as having to mate with an animal to create a child.

I think overall, the Aelfar are fine, except I guess I don't really understand how their war works with the Aurians. Other then that, I think they are established. Only thing left to do is to go over details like family structure, size, dwelling size and layout, clothing, food, and fashion.

Oh. Er. Religion. That...Should probably be a thing. They could do ancestor worship, with their ancestors watching over them through their DNA or something. Maybe a psychic genetic memory if you aren't too married to science.
Basically, every so often, the Aurians decide to launch an invasion; if they get wind of it, the Aelfar tend to immediately pop up and interpose. Sometimes the aelfar will even invade Aurian territory if they feel like it.

I'm actually kind of drawing a blank on all of those minor details, so I'd be happy to discuss them. Hmm... maybe family structure is based on the Maiden/Mother/Crone archetype? You have the Maidens, who are the individuals who haven't borne children and so are lowest on the totem pole; the Mothers, individuals who have given birth and thus make up the direct leadership of the family; and the Crones, aelfar liches who have chosen to embrace undeath as a way to guard and advise their children for eternity, essentially making them warrior-sages.

Religion... well, really, do you think they'd have one? Their whole philosophy basically champions them as the masters of life and death, divinely blessed with the might and thus the right to create, shape and destroy the living and the dead as they see fit. Still... narcissistic aspects don't mean a philosophy, religious or secular, can't be revered. Ancestor-worship through "the memories in the blood" does sound very much like them - this is far, far closer to Star Wars than Star Trek on the "scale of sci-fi hardness", after all.

Honest Tiefling

2017-06-13, 07:30 PM

Biotech: I was thinking that Kixians, like Xixchil, focus on self-improvement, whereas Aelfar focus on dominance. Basically, an Aelfar would create a living suit of armor to protect them, whilst a Kixian would rather harden her carapace to better serve as armor. Aelfar engineer other organisms to suit their needs, Kixians engineer themselves to suit their needs. Does that make sense?

Yeah, I think it's an interesting way to tackle it, and makes the two distinct.

Subservience: My original intentions is that the Kixians are technically an independent race; they do receive protection from the Aelfar, but, on paper, they're not direct servants of the Aelfar. Think we can preserve that?

That was bad word choice on my part. But them depending on the Aelfar for trade and protection while a faction desires independence seems good.

On a different topic... in real life, female praying mantids are very much the dominant gender.

Not...Really. Mantises don't have a social structure, and in some species don't tend to indulge in sexual cannibalism. Mantises in captivity tend to do this more often as the male cannot escape. Also, females prey on males because 1) the species wouldn't have evolved otherwise and 2) the females are larger.

Given that, and the aelfar's own... gender-related quirks... how might that affect the Kixians?

Since they're bug people, maybe it really doesn't occur to them that the Aelfar sexes would be anything like their own. Their pheromones are completely off and the ladies are too small. They're wise beings, but really funny looking ones that grow weird stuff on the tops of their heads. Looks nice, but weird to the touch.

I can kind of see them having ended up similar to the Khepri from Bas-Lag, where only females are sapient and the smaller males are tolerated for breeding but otherwise seen as the animals they are, or them having mutated into a parthenogenic race, or even a blend of the two; there are non-sapient males who can be used to produce genetically different offspring, but who are otherwise regarded as vermin - even being eaten by the females - but the ability for female Kixians to stimulate asexual reproduction in each other, or even inseminate each other, is growing due to bio-tech and cultural moves away from needing to put up with something so embarrassing as having to mate with an animal to create a child.

You already have a lady-only race. Since the Kixians already modify themselves to be useful, why not take a page from the Clownfish? Kixians could have different genders, as distinguished by their carapace or coloration. They just swap out the plumbing as needed to make the next generation because they are a practical people who want to swap genes to make their race stronger. They might have their leaders be female, as females become larger and sometimes it's good to have your leader a little harder to kill and as an artifact of contact with the Aelfar.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-13, 07:35 PM

Sorry, a poor choice of words: "dominant" was used as a shorthand for the fact that female mantids are larger than males, a biological adaptation caused by being egg-layers, and a reference to the fact that they do sometimes practice sexual cannibalism.

As for the reproductive issue... basically, we have one "matriarchal" bio-tech race in the Aelfar, and we know how that works out. What I was asking is: How might we give Kixians a gender aspect that likewise takes into account A: real-life mantids have much larger and fiercer females, B: its access to bio-modification and cultural doctrine of "your body is the temple of your soul; make it resplendent", and C: its cultural ties to the aforementioned Aelfar?

Simply saying that they switch genders as they see fit feels a little... off, to me. At the very least, it's just doing exactly the same thing as the Aelfar themselves do.

Honest Tiefling

2017-06-14, 02:00 PM

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-14, 04:15 PM

It could very well simply be to distinguish themselves from their Aelfar allies. The Aelfar are larger then life, masters of death, while the Kixians are a more subtle, down to earth people. Swapping genders repeatedly is against their ethos, each change is meant to be permanent, lasting, carefully planned, and well thought out. The Kixians perhaps like to think of themselves as being wise, patient and thoughtful, unlike the more fickle Aelfar. They do not think this way of thinking is superior, and has its strengths and weaknesses. However, by embracing it, not only do they have an identify, but they can compliment the actions and thoughts of their Aelfar allies, something that might be more important to them due to a higher drive to work together.

Maybe females dominate the military, something their men folk don't mind because they are naturally larger. If the Kixians are egg layers, then they could simply lay eggs before going off to battle, leaving them in the care of their men, who are more able to hide due to a smaller size. This doesn't accommodate the idea that females will attack males, but maybe that's an aspect best left out of the race that is very cooperative.

So, basically, Kixians follow the normal bug route of females being bigger, and that means females gravitate towards combat roles, but otherwise both sexes are present and normal?

...Eh, sure, let's go with that. It's actually a nice contrast to the Aelfar; on the one hand, we have elves whose genders are all weird, and on the other, we have alien bugs who, whilst not a perfect synch for our take on gender, are otherwise pretty normal.

Alright, so, what do you think of my idea about the Maiden/Mother/Crone family structure for Aelfar? And what other details do we need to establish for the Kixians? To reiterate, this is their concept summary from back on page 2:

Kixians: Mantis-like humanoids who evolved on a deadly, hostile jungle world, the xixixians grew to dominate their world not through physical might, but through superior intelligence, using teamwork and self-improvement to modify their bodies and improve their minds until they could outwit and outfight the predators and other dangers of their homeworld. Body modification is a religion to the xixixians, with each believing that their body is a temple of the soul and must be refined, honed and customized to better suit their true nature. This makes them about the only race with close ties or respect for the Aelfar, fellow masters of flesh-warping. Indeed, so ingrained is this belief in literal bodily refinement that not only is it used for ornamentation, but they have literally engineered themselves into different sub-species, based upon different philosophies about how much they should integrate into the greater galactic society.
(Essentially, Xixchil without the "stupidly individualistic" aspects of the fluff, and further inspiration taken from this pic here, which is basically a thri-kreen version of the infamous "furry meter": https://1d4chan.org/wiki/File:Buggy_chart.jpg "Purists" would be the 90% model, balancers the 70% model, and the most integration-focused/diplomatic corps caste would be the 50% model. Would need to homebrew racial stats for this.)

Honest Tiefling

2017-06-14, 04:54 PM

...Eh, sure, let's go with that. It's actually a nice contrast to the Aelfar; on the one hand, we have elves whose genders are all weird, and on the other, we have alien bugs who, whilst not a perfect synch for our take on gender, are otherwise pretty normal.

Yeah, so the Aelfar and the Kixians are similar, but not all samey.

Alright, so, what do you think of my idea about the Maiden/Mother/Crone family structure for Aelfar? And what other details do we need to establish for the Kixians? To reiterate, this is their concept summary from back on page 2:

I think I'm a little confused what you mean by this, perhaps you could expand on it? What decides which subrace you are, for instance?

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-14, 05:47 PM

I think I'm a little confused what you mean by this, perhaps you could expand on it? What decides which subrace you are, for instance?
Sorry, are you referring to the Aelfar or the Kixians here? I'll try and elaborate upon both...

Aelfar Genders:
In the distinctly non-traditional gender-based social system of the Aelfar, individuals are divided into three castes; Maiden, Mother, and Crone.

Members of the Maiden caste are individuals who have not borne offspring - they may have fathered offspring, but they have not carried a pregnancy to term. The only major social marker against this caste is that they are not allowed to hold high-level leadership positions. A Maiden could be come a sergeant, but not a general. Transitioning from Maiden to Mother is a simple, one-way process that requires formally petitioning for the right to do so, followed by undergoing a pregnancy.

Members of the Mother caste are individuals who have borne offspring. These are the political caste, from whose ranks the highest leaders of Aelfar society are drawn. They are the masters of the Houses - the extended, matrilinear family unit that is the foundation of aelfar society - and decide policy for the race as a whole, although there are many differing levels of status and power within their ranks.

Members of the Crone caste are a distinct rarity. These aelfar have chosen to remove themselves almost entirely from the structure of the Houses by embracing undeath. Although they can be respected for their skills and knowledge, they are forbidden from holding any form of formal office, rendering them powerless amongst the oft-Byzantine political struggles of their people.

Kixian Subraces:
The kixians are an insectoid race who are not only practitioners of flesh-crafting, but also have a racial philosophy of self-improvement and augmentation through its use. Exploring the galaxy has confronted them with the fact that most other races out there are very different looking to them. This has led to differing philosophies about integration with the galactic community (such as it is), revolving around a simple question: should they be willing to change how they look to better fit in with their neighbors? This has led to three distinctive sub-species of kixian.

Traditionalists believe that they have no need to change what they are just because they are different to the majority of galactic races. These kixians still maintain their native shape: a man-sized preying mantid with its central limbs having evolved from legs into surprisingly deft manipulators. These kixians stand out in the crowd and do often run into problem in environments that are built for more conventionally humanoid bodily configurations. They are stronger and tougher, but can run into social problems, as they truly look alien compared to most other races.

Integrators believe that since the universe so obviously favors the humanoid form, then their philosophy of Evolve Or Die demands they change themselves to suit. Although traits like chitinous plating, antennae and clawed digits makes their insect ancestry obvious, these are the most human-like of kixians, complete with more definitively humanoid facial traits (pupils in their eyes, mostly) and with only one set of arms. This gives them a huge advantage when it comes to interacting with other races, who can latch onto their similarities and ignore their differences, but it comes at the cost of many of the strengths of their more bestial relatives.

Harmonists believe that whilst the humanoid form is clearly advantageous, they shouldn't deny everything they were. Walking the middle-ground between Traditionalist and Integrator, Harmonists adhere to the bipedal body-structure and many humanoid norms, but retain far more insectile traits than Integrators do, such as possessing four arms and lacking pupils in their eyes. Currently, this faction holds a small minority in population, as its jack-of-all-trades master-of-none approach seems to have the most benefits from both their humanoid status and their ancestral armaments.

Crunch-wise, this'd be just like selecting your subrace in a normal D&D game, except there's provision to argue for an expensive procedure to be able to change your subrace.

Honest Tiefling

2017-06-15, 12:36 PM

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-15, 02:26 PM

The Aelfar genders make sense, except for the name. Since any male (or whatever) can give birth as much as they want, why the feminized names? Is it a relic of an older time? Or just the best translations that can be had with other races? Or even terms made up by other races that the Aelfar find terribly amusing to hear?
I was figuring they're old terms from before the race truly mastered flesh-crafting, when the race was more of a true matriarchy, and they linger because of tradition and it's funny to see the other races hurt themselves trying to understand them. Translation issues also make sense.

I'd argue Crone is a bad term given connotations, but since Undeath is seen as a colossal ****-up, that seems pretty on the nose.
I... don't really follow you here.

With the Kixians, are all born to a base race and modified later, or have the genes of the Harmonists/Intregators made them a true breeding subrace?
I was thinking initially that all kixians are born traditionalist and then choose to modify themselves at an early point in their lives, but maybe it makes more sense that the Harmonists and Integrators are true-breeding by now?

How do these three function together in a single society, since I assume that the Traditionalists have some physical advantages.
When the three races coexist together, they tend to take on different social roles; traditionalists in the military, integrators in fields that require lots of contact with other species (merchants, etc), harmonists in fields that keep the society working harmoniously.

That said, there are places where the three sub-species go their separate ways and have no contact with each other.

Also, are they exo- or endo-thermic? Do they have an advantage because diseases/toxins don't affect them the same way? Do they have green blood? They could present another advantage to the Aelfar, who presumably use bio-weaponry. Just make things that don't work on the Kixians, and there you go.
I have no idea on the exo/endothermic split; the former makes sense, given they're bugs who evolved on a jungle world, but given their biotech, they could have manipulated themselves to be at least partially endothermic by this point.

Resistance to disease and poison makes sense, between both their own biology and their self-improvement; it's a nice racial trait for their statblock.

Green blood sounds perfectly suitable as a flavor trait.

As for the procedure, I'd just allow the thing. This is Sci-fi, so some body modification seems pretty in line with the setting so far. However, that does raise the question of if mental stats are retained or not, which could lead to balance issues. Also, how long does it take for the genetic modification to work? It could simply be a plot point that takes years to undergo properly (Becoming an accidental genetic chimera is probably not a good thing, but I could be wrong), meaning that it is an effective retirement for most games.
What I was thinking was is that "bio-modding" could be a prolonged downtime activity - not sure of the rules for that, need to check the DMG later. It requires all your time and energy, but allows you to get the selected traits... of course, maybe that's better off being handwaved as just a way to get "boons"...

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-16, 12:38 PM

So, just trying to bump this; after the Kixians are sorted, which would you be most comfortable with discussing next? Felinoids, Scavvers or Quetzalii?

Honest Tiefling

2017-06-17, 03:43 PM

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-17, 03:56 PM

For the crone thing, I wasn't clear. I would normally say that crone with all of its negative connotations doesn't make sense for a social class, except that in this case, it would make sense it would have minor negative impact given that undeath isn't supposed to happen.
Yeah. Plus, "Crones" have been accorded honored titles in some "matriarchal/feminist" alien species/societies before, I think.

Why not do the Scavvers? I'd like to know what they look like. A player of one would know, and people might loot a dead body and sorta figure it out. Are they large or smaller then most other PCs? They could be a small race, as you don't seem to have one yet. Also, if you lived entirely on a ship being small is an advantage due to resource constraints.
So, firstly, are we still talking about the aelfar and/or kixians? You never commented on my replies before.

Anyway, appearance... hmm, perhaps Small size, which stems less from their height (although they are quite short, roughly 5ft at max), but more from their willowy build?

They were basically inspired by the quarians, so, by default, I see them having the same build and limb structure as that race.

Under the suit, soft, purple-pink tinged pale skin dominates. The face is basically that pic I mentioned way back; three flattened back-swept horns crowning the temples and forehead, upside-down teardrop ears, black sclera, small, flattish nose with large nostrils.

Basically, if a female scavver took off her helmet, I was figuring that this is the face you'd see staring back at you:
http://orig05.deviantart.net/a9c9/f/2012/075/9/9/my_wife__s_tali_zorah_redesign_in_3d_by_nebezial-d4szlc0.jpg

I'm open to redesigning if need be, but since this isn't the official face of the quarians in Mass Effect, I was hoping it could be gotten away with.

Honest Tiefling

2017-06-17, 04:37 PM

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-17, 06:01 PM

Over all, other then the issue of if the sub-speices of Kixian are true breeding or not, I think they seem fine. Perhaps the subraces can only interbreed with some help? Since they have bio-tech, that's an easy situation to overcome when in civilized reaches. How do they raise children, anyway?
Interbreeding requiring help makes a lot of sense, especially given it reinforces how they are a race undergoing division.

As for raising children... I'm open to suggestions; I don't particularly want the "lay an eggcase full of dozens of nymphs who go into a cannibalistic feeding frenzy upon hatching, then rear the 1 or 2 strong enough to survive" lore from the Xixchil, but I can be talked into it.

A question arises if they all live in the same regions or not. A giant bug and a humanoid would be hell for ergonomics, so would they even inhabit the same space ship?
I'd say that on planets, they'd probably share similar terrain but separate housing - sort of like ghettos. It is difficult to accommodate them in ships, which is probably one of the factors why they're starting to move apart as subspecies, but they're not that much different in size and stature that it's impossible.

As for that picture of Tali, I'd ask the creator. It looks like she's got her watermark on the bottom there. I wouldn't just make the Quarians version 2.0. What aspect of the Quarians do you like, and what don't you like?
Yeah, I'll do that. And I don't quite follow what you mean by "aspect"?

I like the idea of a mysterious, enigmatic race of space-faring nomads who are really good with arcanotech. I like the visuals of that pic because it's clearly alien, but not hideously so; it marks them as more than just "gnomes in space with a funny name", if that makes any sense? I like the idea of wearing ornately decorated enviro-armor as a practicality that has become, whilst still functional, a matter of privacy that strengthens their mysterious and spooky reputation.

I don't like the unfairness of the quarian situation, nor their obsession with going back to one single planet instead of doing the sensible thing and settling down somewhere else - hence why scavvers are nomads because they've become philosophically convinced it's safer than a planet-borne existence.

I can take or leave the fragility angle of quarians. Likewise, I like the quarian's exaggerated hourglass physiques, three-fingered hands and digitigrade legs for reinforcing that "alien, but not inhumanly so" appearance, but I don't consider them all exactly necessary.

Random thought: maybe a repto-mammal "status", with traits of both mammals and reptiles in their biology might be good? Still want to keep that face, but it might make an added contrast, since only the ryujin and quetzalii are reptilian races.

Honest Tiefling

2017-06-17, 07:15 PM

Interbreeding requiring help makes a lot of sense, especially given it reinforces how they are a race undergoing division.

Agreed there.

As for raising children... I'm open to suggestions; I don't particularly want the "lay an eggcase full of dozens of nymphs who go into a cannibalistic feeding frenzy upon hatching, then rear the 1 or 2 strong enough to survive" lore from the Xixchil, but I can be talked into it.

Why not go with communal breeding? They're a practical people. In their established areas, wise Kixians decide who will make for good, genetically compatible mates. They sometimes make hybrids of the subraces, to ensure that benefical mutations in one can be 'ported' over in a sense. In less established areas, they either go by genetic records or by phenotype as to what would make for a good match. But once 'born', a Kixian is raised by all members of the commune. Favoring one's genetic descendants means that you eschew genetic diversity in favor of primal instincts.

I'd say that on planets, they'd probably share similar terrain but separate housing - sort of like ghettos. It is difficult to accommodate them in ships, which is probably one of the factors why they're starting to move apart as subspecies, but they're not that much different in size and stature that it's impossible.

For some resource starved ships, I could imagine even slight differences being problematic. Are all of the sub-races meant to be playable?

Yeah, I'll do that. And I don't quite follow what you mean by "aspect"?

Theme, idea, flavor, any of it, really.

I like the idea of a mysterious, enigmatic race of space-faring nomads who are really good with arcanotech. I like the visuals of that pic because it's clearly alien, but not hideously so; it marks them as more than just "gnomes in space with a funny name", if that makes any sense? I like the idea of wearing ornately decorated enviro-armor as a practicality that has become, whilst still functional, a matter of privacy that strengthens their mysterious and spooky reputation.

Only question is, what has prevented them from taking it off? How could they be so monolithic, culturally?

I don't like the unfairness of the quarian situation, nor their obsession with going back to one single planet instead of doing the sensible thing and settling down somewhere else - hence why scavvers are nomads because they've become philosophically convinced it's safer than a planet-borne existence.

The first, I am not so sure what you mean. The second bit about not settling down doesn't make complete sense. Space Ships would require resources that could only be gathered at a planet, such as food or air.

I can take or leave the fragility angle of quarians. Likewise, I like the quarian's exaggerated hourglass physiques, three-fingered hands and digitigrade legs for reinforcing that "alien, but not inhumanly so" appearance, but I don't consider them all exactly necessary.

I'd shop around for more types of aliens, just to really pin down what you want. Why not shop around and look at your choices?

The fragility of the quarians should probably be left behind for a player race, unless they really get some good benefits that aren't game breaking to counter the massive penalty. I don't think 5e is the best system, so I'd just ignore it.

Random thought: maybe a repto-mammal "status", with traits of both mammals and reptiles in their biology might be good? Still want to keep that face, but it might make an added contrast, since only the ryujin and quetzalii are reptilian races.

What if it is the opposite? The picture has hair, after all. They could be much like the pangolin, which has reptile-looking scales that are actually hair. Another option would be more bird-like.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-17, 08:14 PM

Sorry for any posting issues - weird technical glitches been showing up on my end.

Why not go with communal breeding? They're a practical people. In their established areas, wise Kixians decide who will make for good, genetically compatible mates. They sometimes make hybrids of the subraces, to ensure that benefical mutations in one can be 'ported' over in a sense. In less established areas, they either go by genetic records or by phenotype as to what would make for a good match. But once 'born', a Kixian is raised by all members of the commune. Favoring one's genetic descendants means that you eschew genetic diversity in favor of primal instincts.
Hmm... could work, but, I'm not entirely sold on it...

For some resource starved ships, I could imagine even slight differences being problematic. Are all of the sub-races meant to be playable?
Yes, my plan was originally that all of the sub-races should be playable. Admittedly, the limitations of 5e may make the traditionalists impossible to play, given their different body-structure, which is basically 2e thri-kreen.

Only question is, what has prevented them from taking it off? How could they be so monolithic, culturally?
I was thinking that nothing has prevented them from taking it off. Rather, it's become a cultural icon, both for practicality and for modesty - they could be a very private race, so wearing the suits could be a matter of cultural modesty and decency.

Don't forget there are real-world cultures with similar attitudes when it comes towards dress.

The first, I am not so sure what you mean.
I'm talking about how, in Mass Effect lore, the quarians have historically gotten a raw deal: they were stripped of a place on the Citadel for the geth uprising, prohibited to settle anyway, barred from holding jobs... basically, if you talk to Tali and read up the quarian codexes through the trilogy, they talk about how a lot of the current Migrant Fleet culture is shaped by rather unfair treatment from the Council and other Citadel races.

The second bit about not settling down doesn't make complete sense. Space Ships would require resources that could only be gathered at a planet, such as food or air.
Well, in fairness, big enough ships can actually be self-sustaining through hydroponics.

I'd shop around for more types of aliens, just to really pin down what you want. Why not shop around and look at your choices?
Don't suppose you got any suggestions?

The fragility of the quarians should probably be left behind for a player race, unless they really get some good benefits that aren't game breaking to counter the massive penalty. I don't think 5e is the best system, so I'd just ignore it.
Well... given we have the canon examples of Small and Sunlight Sensitivity, is "You have Disadvantage on Constitution saving throws against Disease" really that big of an issue?

What if it is the opposite? The picture has hair, after all. They could be much like the pangolin, which has reptile-looking scales that are actually hair. Another option would be more bird-like.
Huh. Interesting suggestions...

Honest Tiefling

2017-06-17, 08:50 PM

Hmm... could work, but, I'm not entirely sold on it...

If they have a longer life span (perhaps a gift from the Aelfar), they could do what many animals do and have a couple in the same domicile as several unmated adults who help with child rearing. It's a bit more communal then the nuclear family set up. Could also be that Kixians don't really do private property like other races and have more communally owned kitchen/living room/etc, with only a singular private room for a couple/family unit.

Yes, my plan was originally that all of the sub-races should be playable. Admittedly, the limitations of 5e may make the traditionalists impossible to play, given their different body-structure, which is basically 2e thri-kreen.

I would give it a whirl, but I'm not very good with balance, sorry. I would look at homebrew to see if there is one you can borrow.

I was thinking that nothing has prevented them from taking it off. Rather, it's become a cultural icon, both for practicality and for modesty - they could be a very private race, so wearing the suits could be a matter of cultural modesty and decency.

Don't forget there are real-world cultures with similar attitudes when it comes towards dress.

Yes, but we also have cultures of people who do the exact opposite. Basically, the question is, why would no one know what they look like, and why do they all belong to this culture? All it takes is one dead Scavver being looted for some idea of what's under there.

The idea of a modest culture is intriguing, since Sci-Fi tends to go with the whole free love angle. I guess that is more 70's then 80's.

I'm talking about how, in Mass Effect lore, the quarians have historically gotten a raw deal: they were stripped of a place on the Citadel for the geth uprising, prohibited to settle anyway, barred from holding jobs... basically, if you talk to Tali and read up the quarian codexes through the trilogy, they talk about how a lot of the current Migrant Fleet culture is shaped by rather unfair treatment from the Council and other Citadel races.

Ah, that point. I was wondering if you meant that or the fact that Quarians are a very collective species or other events in the game. It unfortunately serves the narrative purpose of explaining why the Quarians were more culturally similar to one another with very little integration with others. A environmental issue might force the Scavvers to don suits to talk to other races, and seem mysterious and enforce the suit rule. Most people probably never seen a naked Scavver except in medical texts.

Well, in fairness, big enough ships can actually be self-sustaining through hydroponics.

They would have to be VERY large, and very carefully controlled. I would worry that disease could wipe out a single ship, unless great precautions were taken. However, the idea of massive Dyson spheres and the like is somewhat fitting to the genre and if pesky science isn't allowed to ruin the party, I could see a Space Fantasy setting just going with extremely large ships. Ever seen the Star Trek episode 'The World is Hollow, for I have touched the Sky'?

Well... given we have the canon examples of Small and Sunlight Sensitivity, is "You have Disadvantage on Constitution saving throws against Disease" really that big of an issue?

Sometimes? Disease in 5e seems non-existent, but in 3rd it was pretty spotty if it mattered. Disadvantage to disease and certain types of food might not be debilitating if there are no disease rules, just a flavor thing. No dieases when you assume the Aelfar and the Kixians would have bio-weaponry is a touch weird, however.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-17, 10:14 PM

If they have a longer life span (perhaps a gift from the Aelfar), they could do what many animals do and have a couple in the same domicile as several unmated adults who help with child rearing. It's a bit more communal then the nuclear family set up. Could also be that Kixians don't really do private property like other races and have more communally owned kitchen/living room/etc, with only a singular private room for a couple/family unit.
Hmm... I kept thinking it over, but, actually, the more I look at what you're saying here, the more that works well. That could even explain how kixians evolved to be social animals instead of cannibalistic loners like real mantids: originally, they were monogamous K-type breeders, but mated pairs willing to tolerate other breeding pairs to live alongside them and collectively look after the young prospered.

I would give it a whirl, but I'm not very good with balance, sorry. I would look at homebrew to see if there is one you can borrow.
Huh? Ehehehe... you haven't checked out my homebrew index, have you? I'm not a stranger to homebrewing by any means.

Yes, but we also have cultures of people who do the exact opposite. Basically, the question is, why would no one know what they look like, and why do they all belong to this culture? All it takes is one dead Scavver being looted for some idea of what's under there.

The idea of a modest culture is intriguing, since Sci-Fi tends to go with the whole free love angle. I guess that is more 70's then 80's.

Ah, that point. I was wondering if you meant that or the fact that Quarians are a very collective species or other events in the game. It unfortunately serves the narrative purpose of explaining why the Quarians were more culturally similar to one another with very little integration with others. A environmental issue might force the Scavvers to don suits to talk to other races, and seem mysterious and enforce the suit rule. Most people probably never seen a naked Scavver except in medical texts.
Point... I don't know, I'm kind of lost here. Maybe just dump the idea of them being mysterious and suited? That's really just a minor bit of window-trapping; the nomadic technomancers thing is far more integral to their racial identity.

Or it could be a spin; it's not that nobody knows what they look like as a species, it's just that showing your face to someone as an individual is very private. Funny cultural taboo; their equivalent of "you don't run around naked on the main street". Thus, less focus on covering up the body and more on obscuring the face for the sake of modesty - seeing a scavver unmasked/hooded could be as intimate as seeing somebody's genitals in... well, I presume most cultures in real life.

They would have to be VERY large, and very carefully controlled. I would worry that disease could wipe out a single ship, unless great precautions were taken. However, the idea of massive Dyson spheres and the like is somewhat fitting to the genre and if pesky science isn't allowed to ruin the party, I could see a Space Fantasy setting just going with extremely large ships. Ever seen the Star Trek episode 'The World is Hollow, for I have touched the Sky'?
Not off the top of my head, but I'm a big fan of the kind of sci-fi and fantasy where planet-ships and hollow worlds and the like fit right in, so I feel "world-ships" make a lot of sense for scavvers, especially if they've been building, growing and improving for generations upon generations.

Sometimes? Disease in 5e seems non-existent, but in 3rd it was pretty spotty if it mattered. Disadvantage to disease and certain types of food might not be debilitating if there are no disease rules, just a flavor thing. No dieases when you assume the Aelfar and the Kixians would have bio-weaponry is a touch weird, however.
I wouldn't give them a "certain foods are poisonous" weakness, that just becomes too much book-keeping, but... honestly, I don't really follow

Steampunkette

2017-06-18, 10:46 AM

So... Rather than throw spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks, you should probably break things down into Systemic and Story roles for the different species to occupy.

What mechanical roles need to be covered? Well. You need a races which "Exemplifies" each class, providing good bonuses to what that class does and generally creating a nice synergy. You should also make Flexible races, which are good at a selection of classes. Once you know which races have which stat bonuses, move on to story.

What story roles need to be covered? Ultimately that depends on the reality you're trying to create. In a game where Tech v Magic v Nature is a driving force for the story you'll need races which exemplify those story roles. But in a game where it's the Living fending off the Dead in a "Necrotic Assault" type storyline, such distinctions of Tech/Magic/Nature are far less relevant than things like undead knowledge, defensiveness, or how fast someone goes from "Hold the line" to "RETREAT!"

Farscape, for example, is one of the strongest "Star Fantasy" TV Shows that has existed thus far in Western Television. To create the appropriate blend of character races they needed a Warrior Culture, a Benign Religious culture, a Dominating culture, and a Political Culture as their core identities with Human as an outside observer looking in and providing an avenue for the audience to judge different aspects of the cultures as the story progressed and introduced further cultures and examined how the initial cultures interacted with them.

You'll see the same thing on every Star Trek, by the way. Star Wars, however, focuses on a core story without much exploration of different Cultures within the core narrative. Part of why it's a Space Opera.

Once armed with these two concepts, mechanical and story role, it's fairly easy to build out from the initial framework. Strong Techno-Race? Lots of cybernetics, might actually be a robot, perhaps a tiny creature in a robot suit, large strong people (or small high grav people) who use high tech to fight. Etc, etc, etc.

Each PC race created should be tied into the core story of the setting, to give the players a definite sense of connection to the world. Otherwise they're just tourists and the stakes of the game go down, dramatically.

Honest Tiefling

2017-06-18, 04:19 PM

Hmm... I kept thinking it over, but, actually, the more I look at what you're saying here, the more that works well. That could even explain how kixians evolved to be social animals instead of cannibalistic loners like real mantids: originally, they were monogamous K-type breeders, but mated pairs willing to tolerate other breeding pairs to live alongside them and collectively look after the young prospered.

On earth, most intelligent creatures tend to have at least some degree of social activity, with the Octopus being a strange exception.

Huh? Ehehehe... you haven't checked out my homebrew index, have you? I'm not a stranger to homebrewing by any means.

Well, my face is red. I would actually experiment with making a more drastic race. It isn't fitting with 5e general's theme, but it might work for this setting and the type of game YOU want to run.

Point... I don't know, I'm kind of lost here. Maybe just dump the idea of them being mysterious and suited? That's really just a minor bit of window-trapping; the nomadic technomancers thing is far more integral to their racial identity.

Or it could be a spin; it's not that nobody knows what they look like as a species, it's just that showing your face to someone as an individual is very private. Funny cultural taboo; their equivalent of "you don't run around naked on the main street". Thus, less focus on covering up the body and more on obscuring the face for the sake of modesty - seeing a scavver unmasked/hooded could be as intimate as seeing somebody's genitals in... well, I presume most cultures in real life.

I like the idea of modesty, and it including their face. I would have them focus on covering up both (because so far, there aren't a lot of conservative races thus far), but maybe the face is a larger taboo. They won't be mysterious, but they will be suited with a decent enough explanation for it. Maybe have a vague idea of some symbols or bits they like to put onto the suit, such as achievements or clan membership.

Not off the top of my head, but I'm a big fan of the kind of sci-fi and fantasy where planet-ships and hollow worlds and the like fit right in, so I feel "world-ships" make a lot of sense for scavvers, especially if they've been building, growing and improving for generations upon generations.

I think this would solve the issue of them being reluctant to do the more sensible option of getting some darn food.

I wouldn't give them a "certain foods are poisonous" weakness, that just becomes too much book-keeping, but... honestly, I don't really follow

5e doesn't have disease rules the way 3rd did, and usually treats them as a plot device, not something that would infect a normal party. So either the disease bit is handwaved, or it is a serious freaking problem. I would personally chuck it. Inspiration is fine, outright copying is a bit dull. Don't remake Quarians, make your own thing borrowing from them.

Which occurs to me, perhaps they have prehensile tails. Prehensile tails got a little kooky in Pathfinder if you have ever played that, (They usually weren't overpowered, but they were big boons), but you might be able to homebrew some benefit to a tail that isn't so...Well, OP isn't the right word, but perhaps game changing. (I'm referring to the fact that tiefling gunslingers with a tail could reload ammo in a way few other characters could. The gunslinger wasn't an OP class, but I don't know how far you want to go with the racial benefits. Then again, I am biased to the physical characteristics of a tiefling.

I would reconsider the idea that certain foods can't be consumed by all races. Not that a major component of food, such as certain proteins are toxic, just a few plants or animals. In a normal game, most food types would be available and not an issue. They could be exotic foods that could become a future plot point (such as sneaking a bit into food, but it might not detect as a poison via some means), but not completely debilitating for certain races.

I agree with Steampunkette on certain ideas, that for the game to mechanically work you will need at least one race to fit each class. However, I wouldn't really start with the idea of a Warrior Race or any of the others. Your future players have SEEN that, and it's a very shallow representation of an entire race and quickly leads to 'Plant of the Hats' where the hat is very shallow and bland. There will be some degree of that in racial selection as perceived by players, but I think it is a very limiting way to look at things.

For instance, the Felinids are a Barbarian race (with the presumed STR/CON boost), but they have a particular past and are from what is essentially, a potentially ruined culture ruled by mysterious entities. They're not exactly a typical warrior race in that sense, because their culture is dominated by mages, not other barbarians. Tech-race is not very interesting, and having different races specialized in different forms of tech is probably a better approach.

After all, the Klingons and Ferengi were both considered very poor races due to adhering strictly to 'Warrior Race' or 'Greedy Capitalist Race'. I doubt many fans of Star Trek really think distilling either to that hat is good writing.

EDIT: Speaking of Greedy Capitalists, what are the Aelfar and Kixian views of envriomentalism? Might be a way to distinguish them further, as the former would just screw around with things to suit their liking, while the Kixians might see more value in preserving varied forms of flora and fauna.

SECOND EDIT: So...If the Kixians are allied with the Aelfar, and they take on humanoid forms...Wouldn't that mean they'd probably use the Aelfar as their model for what a Humanoid looks like and what is required to look like an appealing humanoid?

Steampunkette

2017-06-18, 05:23 PM

Oh, no, Honest! I don't mean "Warrior Culture" I meant strictly mechanical in that sense.

The species that exemplifies Fighter stats could be any number of things. To go into Trek: Vulcans, for example, could have the +2 str and +1 con, be obsessed with logic and higher thought, and still be physically powerful people that make excellent fighter types.

The mechanical basis and then the story narrative don't need to have anything to do with one another, but every race should have both a mechanical consideration and an explicit role within the larger game story. Otherwise they might feel tacked on.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-18, 05:41 PM

I like the idea of modesty, and it including their face. I would have them focus on covering up both (because so far, there aren't a lot of conservative races thus far), but maybe the face is a larger taboo. They won't be mysterious, but they will be suited with a decent enough explanation for it. Maybe have a vague idea of some symbols or bits they like to put onto the suit, such as achievements or clan membership.
I like that idea; semi-transparent facial masks, or completely blank (magic is how they can see through them without visible eyeholes) and adorned with the identifier personal symbols? The suits themselves probably have similar intricate arrangements to convey things like family, marital status or even just beauty, ala those swirly designs on quarian suits.

As an aside, since you brought up the "conservative race" thing, I now can't shake the image that aelfar like to dress very, very skimpily, to show off their perfect physiques, untouched by the ravages of time or other hostile elements.

I think this would solve the issue of them being reluctant to do the more sensible option of getting some darn food.
So, the Scavver Fleet is more a case of World-Ships, large enough to support reasonable life, but still mobile? I like that image; it helps emphasize their nature as the "respected and powerful technomancer guys". Actually reminds me a little of the Eldar, which could be useful...

5e doesn't have disease rules the way 3rd did, and usually treats them as a plot device, not something that would infect a normal party. So either the disease bit is handwaved, or it is a serious freaking problem. I would personally chuck it. Inspiration is fine, outright copying is a bit dull. Don't remake Quarians, make your own thing borrowing from them.
Ah. Well, there are disease rules in the DMG, but yeah, I see what you mean. And if they have World-Ships to originate out of, they probably wouldn't have degraded immune systems. Modesty allows for the "exotic masked alien" appeal.

Which occurs to me, perhaps they have prehensile tails. Prehensile tails got a little kooky in Pathfinder if you have ever played that, (They usually weren't overpowered, but they were big boons), but you might be able to homebrew some benefit to a tail that isn't so...Well, OP isn't the right word, but perhaps game changing. (I'm referring to the fact that tiefling gunslingers with a tail could reload ammo in a way few other characters could. The gunslinger wasn't an OP class, but I don't know how far you want to go with the racial benefits. Then again, I am biased to the physical characteristics of a tiefling.
As a side-note, I tried to create prehensile tail rules for a 5e vanara, which originated in the D&D 3e Oriental Adventures. But, yeah, a prehensile tail is good; it fits with their "tech-monkey" racial basis (perhaps a little literally, but, hey, extra limbs are handy for techies), and even works well with my assumption that they'd be big on the setting's version of guns, whether as Gunsmith Artificers or as Archery-style Fighters/Rangers wielding firearms.

Hmm... starting to get a picture of the Scavver physique. Maybe keep the digitigrade legs and give them hooves or paws of some kind for feet? I'm getting a "techy elf" sort of feel from the race, and bizarre legs aren't uncommon amongst the fae - in one German region, dwarves were believed to have feet like chickens or geese, whilst the Glastig had the legs of a deer, satyr style.

I would reconsider the idea that certain foods can't be consumed by all races. Not that a major component of food, such as certain proteins are toxic, just a few plants or animals. In a normal game, most food types would be available and not an issue. They could be exotic foods that could become a future plot point (such as sneaking a bit into food, but it might not detect as a poison via some means), but not completely debilitating for certain races.
Heh, yeah, that's definitely too good a plot point to pass up, and it's not like it needs specific racial rules.

I agree with Steampunkette on certain ideas, that for the game to mechanically work you will need at least one race to fit each class. However, I wouldn't really start with the idea of a Warrior Race or any of the others. Your future players have SEEN that, and it's a very shallow representation of an entire race and quickly leads to 'Plant of the Hats' where the hat is very shallow and bland. There will be some degree of that in racial selection as perceived by players, but I think it is a very limiting way to look at things.

For instance, the Felinids are a Barbarian race (with the presumed STR/CON boost), but they have a particular past and are from what is essentially, a potentially ruined culture ruled by mysterious entities. They're not exactly a typical warrior race in that sense, because their culture is dominated by mages, not other barbarians. Tech-race is not very interesting, and having different races specialized in different forms of tech is probably a better approach.

After all, the Klingons and Ferengi were both considered very poor races due to adhering strictly to 'Warrior Race' or 'Greedy Capitalist Race'. I doubt many fans of Star Trek really think distilling either to that hat is good writing.
I definitely agree with you; it's good to have different options for different classes, as I'm a huge opponent of the "never shall there be a square race in a round class" approach of pre-4e D&D, but starting with a basic and vanilla approach of "Planet of Hats" is... not the best way to handle it. As you said, Klingons didn't really take off until they got culturally fleshed out and diversified in TNG, whilst the Ferengi didn't get any love until DS9 made them more than a shallow "capitalism is bad!" flag.

EDIT: Speaking of Greedy Capitalists, what are the Aelfar and Kixian views of environmentalism? Might be a way to distinguish them further, as the former would just screw around with things to suit their liking, while the Kixians might see more value in preserving varied forms of flora and fauna.
Honestly? That's exactly what I would think: the aelfar's entire doctrine is "we are masters of life and death; all lesser creatures exist to serve us", or at least that's what itwas before they mellowed out after exposure to other sapients. Kixians would probably have more conservation-focused viewpoints, as their focus is on modding themselves.

SECOND EDIT: So...If the Kixians are allied with the Aelfar, and they take on humanoid forms...Wouldn't that mean they'd probably use the Aelfar as their model for what a Humanoid looks like and what is required to look like an appealing humanoid?
Probably. Why do you ask?

Honest Tiefling

2017-06-18, 06:13 PM

I like that idea; semi-transparent facial masks, or completely blank (magic is how they can see through them without visible eyeholes) and adorned with the identifier personal symbols? The suits themselves probably have similar intricate arrangements to convey things like family, marital status or even just beauty, ala those swirly designs on quarian suits.

It could even vary. With an entire species, someone has decided to be snooty and do things differently to distinguish themselves. Personally, I like the idea of them using semi-transparent masks, especially those who interact with other species. They're a little afraid of 'pranksters' dispelling the item (even if it is temporary), and perhaps the actual magic ones are reserved for those of great status/wealth. A high ranking diplomat might be gifted a mask handed down from person to person to better emote with other species for instance.

As an aside, since you brought up the "conservative race" thing, I now can't shake the image that aelfar like to dress very, very skimpily, to show off their perfect physiques, untouched by the ravages of time or other hostile elements.

Yeah, it's probably not politically correct to have a very intersex race , but if they are so into flesh crafting in that form, it makes perfect sense. A nudist sexually active intersex race is a PC nightmare, but probably isn't going to annoy most people, I imagine.

So, the Scavver Fleet is more a case of World-Ships, large enough to support reasonable life, but still mobile? I like that image; it helps emphasize their nature as the "respected and powerful technomancer guys". Actually reminds me a little of the Eldar, which could be useful...

I would actually imagine them as having larger, slower, worldships, battle ships and scouting ships of varying size. It might work for a PC party to have a ship that scouts ahead of the main fleet.

Hmm... starting to get a picture of the Scavver physique. Maybe keep the digitigrade legs and give them hooves or paws of some kind for feet? I'm getting a "techy elf" sort of feel from the race, and bizarre legs aren't uncommon amongst the fae - in one German region, dwarves were believed to have feet like chickens or geese, whilst the Glastig had the legs of a deer, satyr style.

Look at my username. Now tell me which option I'm probably going to pick. More seriously, I'd consider the choice based on what animal they are based on. Another option is talons or elongated toes, and I guess I like the idea of the tech grease-monkey hanging off of the ship they are working on? Might not be balanced, but I'm fond of it.

I definitely agree with you; it's good to have different options for different classes...

Well, I get to feel silly again! I think the idea of mapping classes to races, as it makes sure that each race is at least useful. Through I think some races could be used for more then one class, such as Barbarians and Fighters often making use of the same race. I'm going to try to map the races to commonly used stat bonuses.

Honestly? That's exactly what I would think: the aelfar's entire doctrine is "we are masters of life and death; all lesser creatures exist to serve us", or at least that's what itwas before they mellowed out after exposure to other sapients. Kixians would probably have more conservation-focused viewpoints, as their focus is on modding themselves.

I think that the Kixians and Aelfar make sense, but are becoming separate races, not elves, bug edition. Are there political factions wanting to spilt the two races apart?

Probably. Why do you ask?

Curious, and it does raise the question of if there would be Kixians based off of other humanoids. Also gives me a mental image of...Er. Aelfar are elves. But what do they LOOK like? Short? Tall? Beautiful? Ugly? Humanish? Non-human? Pale? Dark? Black?

EDIT: I’d define rough categories that’ll probably get you through a majority of character concepts as:

STR/CON: Useful for the Fighter and Barbarian classes.
DEX/CON: Good for rangers/rogues.
DEX/CHA: The most common attribute spread, good for paladins, sorcerers, bards, and warlocks.
STR/CHA: Nowadays, only good for the paladin, but it is pretty iconic for an iconic class.
CON/INT: Really only good for the wizard, but you need some sort of INT bonus for them. Also good for gishes.
DEX/INT: Definite Arcane Trickster choice, and good for other types of wizards.
DEX/WIS: Good for clerics, druids and well…Rangers.
STR/WIS: Good for both clerics and druids.

Now to map them.

Aelfar: Oddly, I don’t think Dex/int OR dex/wis works for these guys. They like to meld their bodies, so one would assume they are hardy or they seriously messed up their hat. They enjoy learning, but don’t seem wise.

Kixians: I think their hat of trying to understand the world around them makes them quite wisdom based. They want understanding, not mastery. Their subraces of Harmonist/Integrators/Traditionalists could be DEX/CON/STR accordingly, knocking out any wisdom based stat spread needed. This does mean they use a casting stat different from the Aelfar, which I think is a good thing if you ever wanted to do a Aelfar/Kixian game or enemy faction. Also, if clerics and druids are just astral mages, maybe the distinction between the two should be a bit fuzzier.

Traggen are brutes, so STR/CON. You could do subraces for these guys, since they do breed quickly. If you go that route, you could make the typical Traggen have an intelligence penalty while other breeds don’t so you COULD play a dumb bruiser, or not. Or they could have been made by the Aelfar or other people.

Dworg: Personally, I think these guys should be strength based. They could have two different major groups of mutation, since they don’t seem to have arisen from the same lineage. If you make one CHA/INT/WIS (since you need all three to form a proper society), you’d make all sorts of gishes and divine beatsticks happy.

Lotus Empire: I wanted to go into these guys, but I realize an issue: The empire seems like it would have subraces with mental stat boosts, which typically means casters. Is there a type of casting that would be favored by them? This seems like a setting where giving options to cast with different stats might be appropriate. Also, I wonder if the various Hengeyokai should be more mix n’ match to substitute for a human’s adaptability and ability to compensate for odd ability score choices.

Felinids: STR/CON, since they are a barbarian race.

Scavvers: If they have tails and you are going with a literal tech monkey, I think this is a definite DEX/INT race.

Voidstalkers: I think they could be DEX/WIS. They need dexterity for sneaking, and they seem to be cold, calculating and perceptive to me. Only issue is that psionics keys to intelligence.

I think this set up is only lacking in a DEX/CON and DEX/CHA race thus far.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-18, 10:33 PM

It could even vary. With an entire species, someone has decided to be snooty and do things differently to distinguish themselves. Personally, I like the idea of them using semi-transparent masks, especially those who interact with other species. They're a little afraid of 'pranksters' dispelling the item (even if it is temporary), and perhaps the actual magic ones are reserved for those of great status/wealth. A high ranking diplomat might be gifted a mask handed down from person to person to better emote with other species for instance.
Sounds good to me; I like the idea of a semi-transparent mask best myself...

Incidentally... I had a brief flash of a "fluff piece" involving an adventuring party in this setting featuring a scavver. Most importantly, it had her talking about her "exo-daemon", a sort of arcanotech "sprite" living in her suit, essentially a D&Dification of 40k's Machine-Spirits. Think this is something worth pursuing as a cultural hook?

Yeah, it's probably not politically correct to have a very intersex race , but if they are so into flesh crafting in that form, it makes perfect sense. A nudist sexually active intersex race is a PC nightmare, but probably isn't going to annoy most people, I imagine.
Really? I would have thought that there'd be a lot of "SJW!" complaints from the aelfar. Not that I care overmuch, because, really, it makes a lot of sense.

I would actually imagine them as having larger, slower, worldships, battle ships and scouting ships of varying size. It might work for a PC party to have a ship that scouts ahead of the main fleet.
Sounds sensible to me.

Look at my username. Now tell me which option I'm probably going to pick. More seriously, I'd consider the choice based on what animal they are based on. Another option is talons or elongated toes, and I guess I like the idea of the tech grease-monkey hanging off of the ship they are working on? Might not be balanced, but I'm fond of it.
I'm presuming that means hooves? And I don't directly want to base them on any one animal, especially since elongated toes kind of calls to mind the quarian foot. A sort of claw-hoof is the current image in my mind... maybe it'd help if I tried writing up my draft appearance of an unveiled scavver?

Well, I get to feel silly again! I think the idea of mapping classes to races, as it makes sure that each race is at least useful. Through I think some races could be used for more then one class, such as Barbarians and Fighters often making use of the same race. I'm going to try to map the races to commonly used stat bonuses.
I... don't really understand why you feel silly?

I think that the Kixians and Aelfar make sense, but are becoming separate races, not elves, bug edition. Are there political factions wanting to split the two races apart?
It definitely makes sense if there are, especially on the kixian side.

Curious, and it does raise the question of if there would be Kixians based off of other humanoids.
Hm... I can't really think that they'd honestly see that much of a difference in terms of the basic physical outline. I guess maybe scorpion/tentacle-tailed ones inspired by the scavvers or felinoids, but, for the most part, every other race is some variation of the same "one head, two arms, two legs, upright spinal column" template, so they probably wouldn't see enough "inspiration" in others.

Also gives me a mental image of...Er. Aelfar are elves. But what do they LOOK like? Short? Tall? Beautiful? Ugly? Humanish? Non-human? Pale? Dark? Black?
Well... in all honesty, I figured the Aelfar probably look like drow, but with colors more akin to the 4e version of Eberron's changelings; eerie pale-white skin, long flowing hair in washed out colors, from pink to green, elongated elven ears, slender frames, androgynous builds... beautiful, but also just a little uncanny valley - a bit too lifeless looking, if you follow me.

EDIT: I’d define rough categories that’ll probably get you through a majority of character concepts as:

STR/CON: Useful for the Fighter and Barbarian classes.
DEX/CON: Good for rangers/rogues.
DEX/CHA: The most common attribute spread, good for paladins, sorcerers, bards, and warlocks.
STR/CHA: Nowadays, only good for the paladin, but it is pretty iconic for an iconic class.
CON/INT: Really only good for the wizard, but you need some sort of INT bonus for them. Also good for gishes.
DEX/INT: Definite Arcane Trickster choice, and good for other types of wizards.
DEX/WIS: Good for clerics, druids and well…Rangers.
STR/WIS: Good for both clerics and druids.

Now to map them.

Aelfar: Oddly, I don’t think Dex/int OR dex/wis works for these guys. They like to meld their bodies, so one would assume they are hardy or they seriously messed up their hat. They enjoy learning, but don’t seem wise.

Kixians: I think their hat of trying to understand the world around them makes them quite wisdom based. They want understanding, not mastery. Their subraces of Harmonist/Integrators/Traditionalists could be DEX/CON/STR accordingly, knocking out any wisdom based stat spread needed. This does mean they use a casting stat different from the Aelfar, which I think is a good thing if you ever wanted to do a Aelfar/Kixian game or enemy faction. Also, if clerics and druids are just astral mages, maybe the distinction between the two should be a bit fuzzier.

Traggen are brutes, so STR/CON. You could do subraces for these guys, since they do breed quickly. If you go that route, you could make the typical Traggen have an intelligence penalty while other breeds don’t so you COULD play a dumb bruiser, or not. Or they could have been made by the Aelfar or other people.

Dworg: Personally, I think these guys should be strength based. They could have two different major groups of mutation, since they don’t seem to have arisen from the same lineage. If you make one CHA/INT/WIS (since you need all three to form a proper society), you’d make all sorts of gishes and divine beatsticks happy.

Lotus Empire: I wanted to go into these guys, but I realize an issue: The empire seems like it would have subraces with mental stat boosts, which typically means casters. Is there a type of casting that would be favored by them? This seems like a setting where giving options to cast with different stats might be appropriate. Also, I wonder if the various Hengeyokai should be more mix n’ match to substitute for a human’s adaptability and ability to compensate for odd ability score choices.

Felinids: STR/CON, since they are a barbarian race.

Scavvers: If they have tails and you are going with a literal tech monkey, I think this is a definite DEX/INT race.

Voidstalkers: I think they could be DEX/WIS. They need dexterity for sneaking, and they seem to be cold, calculating and perceptive to me. Only issue is that psionics keys to intelligence.

I think this set up is only lacking in a DEX/CON and DEX/CHA race thus far.

First, allow me to clarify something: the races of the Aurian Empire are united by culture, not biology. They have very different abilities and statblocks.

Secondly... I'm not sure how much detail to go in, but I'll try and explain what I was thinking for the crunch of various species...

Just some thoughts on mechanical support for these races...

Aelfar: These I think can probably be represented just fine mechanically by the Elf race with a new subrace taking the Mul Daya Magic trait, given its spell-like abilities consist of Chill Touch, Hex and Darkness. Or maybe I should make my own subrace for a better spell-like ability list? I'm unsure if I should embrace their "space drow" aspects by making them have Superior Darkvision and Sunlight Sensitivity or not. Anyway, I see the most iconic classes for this race be Wizard (Necromancer, Transmuter) or Warlock (Undying), and they are extremely strong willed, so maybe a +2 Int/+1 Cha ability score split? It's not unprecedented; the Zendikaran elves change their racial core modifier from +2 Dex to +2 Wis.

Traggen: These are, literally, refluffed Half-Orcs. They use the Half-Orc statblock from the PHB and the setting's fluff, and that works fine. So, you're right, they're a Str/Con race.

Dworg: I'm thinking of, likewise, using my 5e Scro statblock for these guys, because they are basically renamed, refluffed scro. The current draft of that is a +2 Str/+1 Wis race with Powerful Build, the Half-Orc's Relentless Endurance, and racial trait that gives them Advantage on Wis saves vs. Charm and Fear. You can find the 3.5 and 2e Scro statblocks on 1d4chan if you think this needs adjusting.

Kixian: For these guys, since you brought it up, Wis as their united statblock makes sense. What I'm thinking of doing, though, is perhaps make it +1 Wis and have the +2 be granted by the subrace. For the subraces, I would definitely go Charisma for Integrators (they're all about getting on with other humanoids), Strength or Constitution (or maybe +1 of each) for Traditionalists (they are the "savage" subrace), and for Harmonists... perhaps Intelligence, given they're all about contemplating and seeing the good side of things.

Ryujin: These are the enforcers of the Aurian Empire, its primary military arm abroad and its "peacekeepers" within. +2 Strength seems obvious, with maybe a +1 Wisdom (to reflect sharp senses and honing to spot liars, thieves and training) as the secondary.

Ki'rinii: The sages and scholars, my knee-jerk reaction to these guys would be +2 Wisdom and +1 Charisma, just like the sacred animals they receive.

Hengeyokai: This is a collection of various different races who, in a "normal" 5e game would share a single racial trait, the ability to shapeshift. Probably dump the shapeshifting angle, but each of these needs to be discussed individually. Their current drafts can be found in my Oriental Races thread in the Homebrew forum; the index in my signature will take you straight there.

Oni: In my head, these are a "magical traggen" offshoot, so my knee-jerk statblock would be +2 Str/+1 Cha; they're not studied or practiced, they're intuitive casters whose magic comes from within.

Gyokutoan: ...These guys, I honestly don't really have any solid ideas for. Hell, I'm barely sure of their culture, never mind their statblock - the first thing to honestly spring to mind when I consider them is a cross between Usagi Yojimbo and Bucky O'Hare!

Quatzalii: These are the Paladin Race, plain and simple. Strength/Cha, although I can see the argument to flip the numbers compared to Oni.

Lotusian: Sagely and intellectual, I could see these guys as Int/Wis or Wis/Cha, personally.

Snapperjaw: These are without a doubt the primary "barbaric" race of the setting. Str/Con, or Con/Dex.

Felinoid: I honestly see these as a Str/Dex race - strong and barbaric, but also possessed of feline agility. Could go the subrace approach, with some being swift (+Dex), some being hardy (+Con) and some being magical (+Int or Cha).

Scavver: For me, the iconic classes are Wizard and Artificer (especially Gunsmith), so my first choice would be +2 Int, +1 Dex.

Voidstalker: Since Wis is used as the "empathic" stat on occasion and as psionics does key off of Int, I think +2 Dex, +1 Int works better with these guys.

Honest Tiefling

2017-06-19, 02:04 PM

Incidentally... I had a brief flash of a "fluff piece" involving an adventuring party in this setting featuring a scavver. Most importantly, it had her talking about her "exo-daemon", a sort of arcanotech "sprite" living in her suit, essentially a D&Dification of 40k's Machine-Spirits. Think this is something worth pursuing as a cultural hook?

Since I don't know WH40k outside of memes, I think it would be worthwhile to elaborate. They could even be real!

Really? I would have thought that there'd be a lot of "SJW!" complaints from the aelfar. Not that I care overmuch, because, really, it makes a lot of sense.

The SJW moniker does not denote progress nor sanity. I would just present the Aelfar as is. Yeah, not the most politically correct, but I don't really see a culture of flesh shapers embracing motherhood with long lives without tons of people deciding to try different bits out. The nudity also makes sense. If you are into writing fiction, I'd suggest writing about Naked Grandpa. Nothing says 'Guys, nudity doesn't ogling hot women, other people are naked and you aren't supposed to be doing that' like reminding people that if nudity is the norm, Grandpa's nekkie too.

Basically, don't do what Cthulutech did.

I'm presuming that means hooves? And I don't directly want to base them on any one animal, especially since elongated toes kind of calls to mind the quarian foot. A sort of claw-hoof is the current image in my mind... maybe it'd help if I tried writing up my draft appearance of an unveiled scavver?

That'd be appreicated. You intend to write some stories about this? If so, maybe you should throw up a Google Doc, because I worry details are getting lost for new comers.

I... don't really understand why you feel silly?

Because I missed her point.

Hm... I can't really think that they'd honestly see that much of a difference in terms of the basic physical outline. I guess maybe scorpion/tentacle-tailed ones inspired by the scavvers or felinoids, but, for the most part, every other race is some variation of the same "one head, two arms, two legs, upright spinal column" template, so they probably wouldn't see enough "inspiration" in others.

They could be noted as not doing it because they can't just meddle with their genes every time they talk to a new humanoid. This Aelfar thing has been working and it might even honor the Aelfar.

Well... in all honesty, I figured the Aelfar probably look like drow, but with colors more akin to the 4e version of Eberron's changelings; eerie pale-white skin, long flowing hair in washed out colors, from pink to green, elongated elven ears, slender frames, androgynous builds... beautiful, but also just a little uncanny valley - a bit too lifeless looking, if you follow me.

Drow come in both short and tall flavors, depending on setting. 4e Changelings seem to have pale, near white skin tones and pastel hair colors. (I think I found the image you got your inspiration from). If I am not wrong (I didn't play 4e all that much), I think that is a fine coloration. You avoid the problem of the evil elves being cursed with dark skin tones, certainly. Through, what exactly does pink to green mean? Does that mean pink, purple, blue, green? Or pink, orange, yellow, green? Or just whatever?

First, allow me to clarify something: the races of the Aurian Empire are united by culture, not biology. They have very different abilities and statblocks.

Ah, makes more sense.

Aelfar: These I think can probably be represented just fine mechanically by the Elf race with a new subrace taking the Mul Daya Magic trait, given its spell-like abilities consist of Chill Touch, Hex and Darkness. Or maybe I should make my own subrace for a better spell-like ability list? I'm unsure if I should embrace their "space drow" aspects by making them have Superior Darkvision and Sunlight Sensitivity or not. Anyway, I see the most iconic classes for this race be Wizard (Necromancer, Transmuter) or Warlock (Undying), and they are extremely strong willed, so maybe a +2 Int/+1 Cha ability score split? It's not unprecedented; the Zendikaran elves change their racial core modifier from +2 Dex to +2 Wis.

Your own. They're flesh shapers. Give them fleshshapery things. Through I personally think the racial ability to cast a cantrip based off of one of the abilities you get a boost to works great too. Especially if the cantrip list is pulled from different spellcasting classes.

INT/CHA benefits no class, but isn't a bad split themetai. If the Aelfar are only really meant to have warlocks of the Undying patron...Maybe adjust the Undying Patron so that it keys off the same ability score as Wizards? Warlocks are funky in that you could argue for many different ability scores to work for their abilities, since they are a bit fuzzier then the Sorcerer or Wizard in my opinion. I fear that unless their racial abilities REALLY shine, they might be passed up for wizard PCs in favor of a better stat spread.

And screw the default. If people want the default, I don't really think this project is meant for them in the slightest. I figured this was meant for veterans to TTRPGs who want new shiny toys.

Dworg: I'm thinking of, likewise, using my 5e Scro statblock for these guys, because they are basically renamed, refluffed scro. The current draft of that is a +2 Str/+1 Wis race with Powerful Build, the Half-Orc's Relentless Endurance, and racial trait that gives them Advantage on Wis saves vs. Charm and Fear. You can find the 3.5 and 2e Scro statblocks on 1d4chan if you think this needs adjusting.

Not the best with balance, but this seems like a good start, through they are ideal clerics and middling fighters.

Kixian: For these guys, since you brought it up, Wis as their united statblock makes sense. What I'm thinking of doing, though, is perhaps make it +1 Wis and have the +2 be granted by the subrace. For the subraces, I would definitely go Charisma for Integrators (they're all about getting on with other humanoids), Strength or Constitution (or maybe +1 of each) for Traditionalists (they are the "savage" subrace), and for Harmonists... perhaps Intelligence, given they're all about contemplating and seeing the good side of things.

Yeah, the +2 charisma makes sense, if they train and alter themselves to be more charismatic. I just worry that much like the INT/CHA spread, WIS/CHA is equally as useless. Perhaps giving Harmonists some of the half-elven perks (which is a pretty good race for any CHA build) will even things out a bit. I like the idea of the Traditionalists getting WIS/STR/CON, as they might be facing some RP and physical set backs.

Through I think one could make the argument that if the Kixians are big on adaptation, they should be like Half-Elves in that they definitely get the wis boost, but the other one is floating. After all, wouldn't you have Kixians with massive strength to lift things for their society, while others are agile and others still ignore physical traits in favor of what they need? The more I think about it, the more I think they need at least one floating ability boost due to that trait.

Ryujin: These are the enforcers of the Aurian Empire, its primary military arm abroad and its "peacekeepers" within. +2 Strength seems obvious, with maybe a +1 Wisdom (to reflect sharp senses and honing to spot liars, thieves and training) as the secondary.

I assume some sort of Dragonborn with a asian bent and Wisdom in place of Charisma. Maybe getting rid of the breath weapon and replacing it with a spell? Not sure how magic is supposed to work with this emprire.

Ki'rinii: The sages and scholars, my knee-jerk reaction to these guys would be +2 Wisdom and +1 Charisma, just like the sacred animals they receive.

A scholarly race WITHOUT intelligence???? No, I think I have to disagree here, I think INT/WIS would be best. Rare, but you could put on a lot of benefits to make up for the weird spread. Unlike INT/CHA, wisdom saves come up and is keyed to perception, but surviving is sorta a high priority for casters.

+2 INT/+1 CHA/+1 WIS would be hard to balance, but is very amusing to me.

Oni: In my head, these are a "magical traggen" offshoot, so my knee-jerk statblock would be +2 Str/+1 Cha; they're not studied or practiced, they're intuitive casters whose magic comes from within.

In a weird way, I wonder if their stats should be considered in opposition to the Ryujin. The Ryujin are presumably the generals? One would assume that the race with the charisma boost would be the guys in charge. I would swap the two, making the Ryujin confident and natural born leaders, while the oni are stubborn and gain their magic through basic understanding and instinct. (I'm a little fuzzy on my Japanese folklore, if you couldn't already tell). Heck, since Dragonborn are mildly weak, I don't think anyone would care if you tacked on some extra INT or WIS to reflect draconic heritage.

Gyokutoan: ...These guys, I honestly don't really have any solid ideas for. Hell, I'm barely sure of their culture, never mind their statblock - the first thing to honestly spring to mind when I consider them is a cross between Usagi Yojimbo and Bucky O'Hare!

When in doubt, cheat. Their planet got destroyed or they are exiles from the Aurian empire. I would just make them a dex race with a speed boost and tack on any ability scores that need to be fleshed out later.

Quatzalii: These are the Paladin Race, plain and simple. Strength/Cha, although I can see the argument to flip the numbers compared to Oni.

What about CON/CHA? That way they can function as a paladin OR sorcerer race, unlike a STR/CHA race.

Lotusian: Sagely and intellectual, I could see these guys as Int/Wis or Wis/Cha, personally.

Subraces! Give me more subraces! Seriously, subraces are a good tool to help a race appeal to players. Since these guys are so old, is there any way for them to vary a bit? Their MO of being diplomats wants me to think of them as WIS/CHA, since you need empathy to be good at talking to people, usually. They should probably have Diplomacy/Insight as free bonus skills.

Snapperjaw: These are without a doubt the primary "barbaric" race of the setting. Str/Con, or Con/Dex.

I feel like the Felinoids are a better barbarian race. I sorta wonder if these guys would be better as CON/WIS and making them evilll space astral druids. Wisdom doesn't imply intelligence and they could, for the lack of a better word, be able to have sharp senses and an animal understanding of their environment. We also have STR/WIS, through...Are these meant to even be playable? I feel like an uplifted Snapperjaw that the Lotusian/Paxians are trying to save might be a better PC due to the lack of intelligence.

I have also noted a lack of stat penalties. 5e is indeed moving away from this, but both the Orc and the Kobold have them. If you make the races more appealing to the classes, I think there is a very good argument that you have a nice selection and some people really enjoy stat penalties.

Felinoid: I honestly see these as a Str/Dex race - strong and barbaric, but also possessed of feline agility. Could go the subrace approach, with some being swift (+Dex), some being hardy (+Con) and some being magical (+Int or Cha).

Again, any race with access to bio-engineering, in my opinion, should have sub-races. I like the idea of a STR/CON and a STR/DEX variant, so you can either pick for stats for your Fighter/Barbarian, or pick some racial goodies that the more dexterous version has, suitable to all tastes.

I freaking love casters, but I have to vote against the magical type. Their mages are supposed to be super mysterious cat-dragon things. I really like that concept, and I feel that without some reason, it would be better to separate the casters from the non-casters.

Then again, I feel like a Felinoid PC would probably be a pirate that slams opens the doors of a bar shouting 'BAR-PEON! BEER ME!'. Maybe I have the wrong idea, but I thought they tended to not care about other people's feelings or cultures, so a lack of WIS/CHA seems appropriate.

Voidstalker: Since Wis is used as the "empathic" stat on occasion and as psionics does key off of Int, I think +2 Dex, +1 Int works better with these guys.

Yeah, maybe I was off the mark here. Wisdom being both perception and empathy gets screwy, but I could see INT being there for a cold, calculating race. WIS just tends to favor more rogues, through these guys being +2 DEX/+1 INT makes them good for being Arcane Tricksters or Rogue/Psions, which I assume is sorta their hat.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-19, 03:05 PM

Since I don't know WH40k outside of memes, I think it would be worthwhile to elaborate. They could even be real!
Basically, in WH40K, humanity has descended into techno-barbarism. Science is the province of the Tech-priests, a religious order that reveres science, technology and logic without really understanding any of it - they actively decry innovation and experimentation as heresy. The foundation of their religion is an animistic worldview, in which every machine has its own spirit, which must be placated and respected in order to guarantee its continued functioning (rote maintenance and activation procedures cloaked in a lot of ritualistic bunkum). These are usually suggested by the fluff to be either non-existent or unrealized AI/VI type programs - to add to the irony, as Artificial Intelligence is one of the greatest heresies/sins/evils in the tech-priest's worldview.

That'd be appreicated. You intend to write some stories about this? If so, maybe you should throw up a Google Doc, because I worry details are getting lost for new comers.
Alright, I want to get this post out first because my internet is only really solid during off-peak - between 2 and 7 in the morning; it's 5:30 as I write this and I've been up 3 hours already... -but I'll do a draft "Scavver" appearance writeup later.

More of a vignette that popped into my head while I was walking. I talk to myself a lot - drowns out the tinnitus. Basically a mental motion picture of a band of Star-Raider (or whatever I call this setting) adventurers trying to recover an aelfar artifact and having to fight against the infestation of Moldies (like if Vegepgymies acted more like cannibal zombies).

A Gdoc? Sure, I was thinking it's getting time to set up something like that...

They could be noted as not doing it because they can't just meddle with their genes every time they talk to a new humanoid. This Aelfar thing has been working and it might even honor the Aelfar.
Well, yeah, obviously that as well. Really, they've probably settled into the use of a single human template out of practicality, but you're right, it could be seen as an appropriate homage to their patrons.

Drow come in both short and tall flavors, depending on setting. 4e Changelings seem to have pale, near white skin tones and pastel hair colors. (I think I found the image you got your inspiration from). If I am not wrong (I didn't play 4e all that much), I think that is a fine coloration. You avoid the problem of the evil elves being cursed with dark skin tones, certainly. Through, what exactly does pink to green mean? Does that mean pink, purple, blue, green? Or pink, orange, yellow, green? Or just whatever?
If the image you found is this one below, then yes, definitely. As for the colors, I basically just picked two and threw them out; I haven't read my 4e Eberron in a while, so I don't recall the colors.

As for height... tall and regal kind of fits their motif better, don't you think? I know D&D elves were traditionally shorter than humans, but, I see no reason to cling to that sacred cow above all others.

https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/eberron/images/9/93/Changeling1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140213160338

Just before we begin, talking crunch might be jumping the gun a little, although I am happy to engage in it if it helps with the fluff development.

Your own. They're flesh shapers. Give them fleshshapery things. Through I personally think the racial ability to cast a cantrip based off of one of the abilities you get a boost to works great too. Especially if the cantrip list is pulled from different spellcasting classes.

INT/CHA benefits no class, but isn't a bad split themetai. If the Aelfar are only really meant to have warlocks of the Undying patron...Maybe adjust the Undying Patron so that it keys off the same ability score as Wizards? Warlocks are funky in that you could argue for many different ability scores to work for their abilities, since they are a bit fuzzier then the Sorcerer or Wizard in my opinion. I fear that unless their racial abilities REALLY shine, they might be passed up for wizard PCs in favor of a better stat spread.

And screw the default. If people want the default, I don't really think this project is meant for them in the slightest. I figured this was meant for veterans to TTRPGs who want new shiny toys.
Hmm... complicates things a little, but I can definitely see your logic. Do you want me to go ahead and draft a statblock for the Aelfar, or should that wait?

Not the best with balance, but this seems like a good start, through they are ideal clerics and middling fighters.
I was actually trying to make them really good monks, because that's actually one of the two iconic classes for Scro (alongside multiclassed Cleric-Wizards). Hmm... subraces may be a good idea here after all...

Yeah, the +2 charisma makes sense, if they train and alter themselves to be more charismatic. I just worry that much like the INT/CHA spread, WIS/CHA is equally as useless. Perhaps giving Harmonists some of the half-elven perks (which is a pretty good race for any CHA build) will even things out a bit. I like the idea of the Traditionalists getting WIS/STR/CON, as they might be facing some RP and physical set backs.

Through I think one could make the argument that if the Kixians are big on adaptation, they should be like Half-Elves in that they definitely get the wis boost, but the other one is floating. After all, wouldn't you have Kixians with massive strength to lift things for their society, while others are agile and others still ignore physical traits in favor of what they need? The more I think about it, the more I think they need at least one floating ability boost due to that trait.
When you put it like that, +2 Wis as the static bonus makes sense, and half-elven or other diplomancy-related perks are definitely a good idea for Harmonist crunch.

I assume some sort of Dragonborn with a asian bent and Wisdom in place of Charisma. Maybe getting rid of the breath weapon and replacing it with a spell? Not sure how magic is supposed to work with this emprire.
Yes, "Chinese Dragonborn" is basically the foundation of their concept. I'm thinking to steal Pathfinder's Imperial Dragons and use them both as the God-Emperors and as the origin for the racial crunch of the Ryujin. I could try drafting crunch here, but maybe we should discuss fluff first?

A scholarly race WITHOUT intelligence???? No, I think I have to disagree here, I think INT/WIS would be best. Rare, but you could put on a lot of benefits to make up for the weird spread. Unlike INT/CHA, wisdom saves come up and is keyed to perception, but surviving is sorta a high priority for casters.

+2 INT/+1 CHA/+1 WIS would be hard to balance, but is very amusing to me.
...That statblock looks really good to me. I agree that balance would be hard for it, but I think that makes the most sense to use as a base.

In a weird way, I wonder if their stats should be considered in opposition to the Ryujin. The Ryujin are presumably the generals? One would assume that the race with the charisma boost would be the guys in charge. I would swap the two, making the Ryujin confident and natural born leaders, while the oni are stubborn and gain their magic through basic understanding and instinct. (I'm a little fuzzy on my Japanese folklore, if you couldn't already tell). Heck, since Dragonborn are mildly weak, I don't think anyone would care if you tacked on some extra INT or WIS to reflect draconic heritage.
It's more that the Ryujin are replacements; these guys used to be the cornerstone of the Imperial Army, but they were so hard to control that the Empire has turned against them.

When in doubt, cheat. Their planet got destroyed or they are exiles from the Aurian empire. I would just make them a dex race with a speed boost and tack on any ability scores that need to be fleshed out later.
I know their origins - they're the latest "integrated" race of the Aurian Empire and still struggling to try and regain their independence, but these guys definitely need to be talked about for fluff before we can crunch them, I think.

What about CON/CHA? That way they can function as a paladin OR sorcerer race, unlike a STR/CHA race.
Hmm... I think Couatls have some association with healing or life, so Con/Cha actually sounds really good.

Subraces! Give me more subraces! Seriously, subraces are a good tool to help a race appeal to players. Since these guys are so old, is there any way for them to vary a bit? Their MO of being diplomats wants me to think of them as WIS/CHA, since you need empathy to be good at talking to people, usually. They should probably have Diplomacy/Insight as free bonus skills.
Could always go with subspecies representing either different "breeds" created for different purposes (for example, a Wis/Dex race may be sprouted to serve as Monk-based defenders of the groves), or subspecies that have mutated as a result of philosophical divergences over the eons. Wis/Cha and free Insight/Persuasion definitely make sense for the "Archetypical" member of their species.

I feel like the Felinoids are a better barbarian race. I sorta wonder if these guys would be better as CON/WIS and making them evilll space astral druids. Wisdom doesn't imply intelligence and they could, for the lack of a better word, be able to have sharp senses and an animal understanding of their environment. We also have STR/WIS, through...Are these meant to even be playable? I feel like an uplifted Snapperjaw that the Lotusian/Paxians are trying to save might be a better PC due to the lack of intelligence.
You're right, I may be overstating their savagery... these guys are basically intended to be a shout out to/expy of the Florans from Starbound; primitive, violent and carnivorous plant-people who are, nonetheless, redeemable. In many ways, these guys would be more the Orks of the setting than the Traggen; the Traggen fight because they think fighting is fun and really aren't bad people once you get over it. Still... a complete ground-up reworking of their fluff may be required...

I have also noted a lack of stat penalties. 5e is indeed moving away from this, but both the Orc and the Kobold have them. If you make the races more appealing to the classes, I think there is a very good argument that you have a nice selection and some people really enjoy stat penalties.
The 5e Kobold and Orc are both exceptions to the rule. They are explicitly called out as such in Volo's Guide, and it even mentions that they're probably not balanced as a result. Stat penalties suck. Moving away from them was one of the smartest ideas 4e had and far more people complain about those two races bringing them back than approve. I'm sorry, but I'm not using them.

Again, any race with access to bio-engineering, in my opinion, should have sub-races. I like the idea of a STR/CON and a STR/DEX variant, so you can either pick for stats for your Fighter/Barbarian, or pick some racial goodies that the more dexterous version has, suitable to all tastes.

I freaking love casters, but I have to vote against the magical type. Their mages are supposed to be super mysterious cat-dragon things. I really like that concept, and I feel that without some reason, it would be better to separate the casters from the non-casters.

Then again, I feel like a Felinoid PC would probably be a pirate that slams opens the doors of a bar shouting 'BAR-PEON! BEER ME!'. Maybe I have the wrong idea, but I thought they tended to not care about other people's feelings or cultures, so a lack of WIS/CHA seems appropriate.
What I was meaning is that there could be Felinoid (and do you have any suggestion for a better race name? Please?) subspecies which fill the caster role. Don't get me wrong, most of their sisters are either scarred killers or whirling dervishes, but there could be some who have enough of their magical ancestry to supplement their combat skills (iconic class: Eldritch Knight Fighter), or the mental traits needed to open themselves to the Clan-Mother and draw upon her power for the good of the pack (iconic class: Theurge Wizard/Cleric).

And yeah, that's a fairly accurate summary of a Felinoid's behavior. If you've ever watched Outlaw Star, they're not an entire race of Aisha Clan-Clans (I loathe kender too much to make that mistake!), but she's pretty much a dead ringer for the stereotypical Felinoid. If perhaps a little less interested in flirting.

Yeah, maybe I was off the mark here. Wisdom being both perception and empathy gets screwy, but I could see INT being there for a cold, calculating race. WIS just tends to favor more rogues, through these guys being +2 DEX/+1 INT makes them good for being Arcane Tricksters or Rogue/Psions, which I assume is sorta their hat.
Pretty much; I see these guys being Arcane Tricksters, Shadow Monks and Mystics, traditionally Immortals, Nomads and Soul Knives. You know, if Soul Knife was a little stronger.

Honest Tiefling

2017-06-19, 03:47 PM

Basically, in WH40K, humanity has descended into techno-barbarism. Science is the province of the Tech-priests, a religious order that reveres science, technology and logic without really understanding any of it - they actively decry innovation and experimentation as heresy. The foundation of their religion is an animistic worldview, in which every machine has its own spirit, which must be placated and respected in order to guarantee its continued functioning (rote maintenance and activation procedures cloaked in a lot of ritualistic bunkum). These are usually suggested by the fluff to be either non-existent or unrealized AI/VI type programs - to add to the irony, as Artificial Intelligence is one of the greatest heresies/sins/evils in the tech-priest's worldview.

Ah, I didn't know that. I had some idea that the technopriests were bonkers and did things ritualistically, but not THAT far. So thanks for clearing that up.

I could see a reason to develop this sort of theme, and a reason not to. If technology is supposed to be a lost art, then it makes sense. It could be frustrating for players, but maybe that isn't the right type of player for this game. Are the Scavvers meant to understand their tech, be relearning it, or well...Scavenging it?

Hell, with all of the technomancy, maybe they just shove real spirits into their armor. Could be elemental, magical, or even just dead people. Hi, grandma!

Alright, I want to get this post out first because my internet is only really solid during off-peak - between 2 and 7 in the morning; it's 5:30 as I write this and I've been up 3 hours already... -but I'll do a draft "Scavver" appearance writeup later.

Fair enough. Our timezones also don't seem to match.

Well, yeah, obviously that as well. Really, they've probably settled into the use of a single human template out of practicality, but you're right, it could be seen as an appropriate homage to their patrons.

If the Aelfar are vain, it might appeal to them. Take a look at the orchid mantis, which does come in various colors. I could imagine the Kixians naturally having evolved showy colors to blend in with giant space flowers on their home world. Traditionalists like to meld their carapace as a form of art and personal expression, only changing it when they feel like they have undergone a serious personal transformation. Harmonists like to mimic the petal like colors of the Aelfar, feeling a sense of unity and because few humanoids outside of the Aelfar can really tell them apart if they aren't different colors.

As for height... tall and regal kind of fits their motif better, don't you think? I know D&D elves were traditionally shorter than humans, but, I see no reason to cling to that sacred cow above all others.

You could. It would certainly fit. Through I'd make the argument that going against type is equally as valid to play with troupes. Maybe they perceive themselves as tall and the perfect height and then there are all of these tall muscular weirdos all over the place. To them, they ARE tall, as they are taller then their ancestors. Beyond that just looks plain silly.

Just before we begin, talking crunch might be jumping the gun a little, although I am happy to engage in it if it helps with the fluff development.

I'm not the most focused of people, but I will argue that knowing what classes everyone is supposed to map to does help. Also, if we wind up with 12 paladin races and no sorcerer or rogue race, that's an issue. So getting a basic mix of classes is probably good, and then work out the kinks after their fluff.

Hmm... complicates things a little, but I can definitely see your logic. Do you want me to go ahead and draft a statblock for the Aelfar, or should that wait?

Aelfar, Kixian and Scavver, please. Since we have the fluff of those mostly figured out, it'll be interesting to see a playable version.

I was actually trying to make them really good monks, because that's actually one of the two iconic classes for Scro (alongside multiclassed Cleric-Wizards). Hmm... subraces may be a good idea here after all...

I would agree, also, they are mutations. Earlier, you mentioned a type of half-Aelfar half-Scro, as well as Aelfar breeding them. That could explain a few subraces in such a short period of time. Also, I have a bias to Elf/Orc hybrids, since players tend to inquire about them, but they are never expanded upon.

When you put it like that, +2 Wis as the static bonus makes sense, and half-elven or other diplomancy-related perks are definitely a good idea for Harmonist crunch.

Still argue that some floating bonuses for the rest make some sense as well. I assume they are a varied race, after all.

Yes, "Chinese Dragonborn" is basically the foundation of their concept. I'm thinking to steal Pathfinder's Imperial Dragons and use them both as the God-Emperors and as the origin for the racial crunch of the Ryujin. I could try drafting crunch here, but maybe we should discuss fluff first?

True. But let's at least nail down iconic classes and stats, since that helps me with a mental image and again, we need a playable selection of races. Do they lead the armies or do any sort of priestly stuff in relation to the God-Emperors? I mean, God-Emperor does sorta have god in the title. Having their 'priests' be 'warlocks' would also make sense if they are not Astral Leyline Mages.

...That statblock looks really good to me. I agree that balance would be hard for it, but I think that makes the most sense to use as a base.

I think it's a fun challenge, but let's tackle things one at a time. I think they are obviously meant as a mental race, and I think a lot of people would like that.

It's more that the Ryujin are replacements; these guys used to be the cornerstone of the Imperial Army, but they were so hard to control that the Empire has turned against them.

Curious as to why, because I feel like that would be a defining moment in their history. Admittedly, wisdom is always held as the stat being toted by the 'good' guys, so an inversion and giving it to the evil ones amuses me greatly.

I know their origins - they're the latest "integrated" race of the Aurian Empire and still struggling to try and regain their independence, but these guys definitely need to be talked about for fluff before we can crunch them, I think.

They could be just more open. A slot for a creative player to toy around with ideas.

Hmm... I think Couatls have some association with healing or life, so Con/Cha actually sounds really good.

Makes them hardy, as opposed to just strong.

Could always go with subspecies representing either different "breeds" created for different purposes (for example, a Wis/Dex race may be sprouted to serve as Monk-based defenders of the groves), or subspecies that have mutated as a result of philosophical divergences over the eons. Wis/Cha and free Insight/Persuasion definitely make sense for the "Archetypical" member of their species.

Well...You have large grove worlds with immobile members. I assume those are still sapient beings? Maybe these guys aren't subraces, as much as different life stages. Seedling/Sapling/Treant/Rooted or something like that.

You could even do some weird stuff like them grafting each other onto physically stronger members for the adventurous players who want to do that. I wouldn't make it a COMMON option, but if we're going with crazy bio-tech, let's go all the way.

They could just have a billion genders like the slime mold. Space plants don't have to be entirely plant like, and there are many different plants that do have male and female plants, such as the gingko. I personally prefer them to be monoicous, as they present an alternative, saner, option to the Aelfar's weird intersex behavior.

You're right, I may be overstating their savagery... these guys are basically intended to be a shout out to/expy of the Florans from Starbound; primitive, violent and carnivorous plant-people who are, nonetheless, redeemable. In many ways, these guys would be more the Orks of the setting than the Traggen; the Traggen fight because they think fighting is fun and really aren't bad people once you get over it. Still... a complete ground-up reworking of their fluff may be required...

Well, I think we have our next contender once we establish the Scavvers a bit more.

The 5e Kobold and Orc are both exceptions to the rule. They are explicitly called out as such in Volo's Guide, and it even mentions that they're probably not balanced as a result. Stat penalties suck. Moving away from them was one of the smartest ideas 4e had and far more people complain about those two races bringing them back than approve. I'm sorry, but I'm not using them.

Fair enough. I think some people get a kick out of a stat penalty, but I will vehemently agree that it should never be used for a majority of races.

What I was meaning is that there could be Felinoid (and do you have any suggestion for a better race name? Please?) subspecies which fill the caster role. Don't get me wrong, most of their sisters are either scarred killers or whirling dervishes, but there could be some who have enough of their magical ancestry to supplement their combat skills (iconic class: Eldritch Knight Fighter), or the mental traits needed to open themselves to the Clan-Mother and draw upon her power for the good of the pack (iconic class: Theurge Wizard/Cleric).

I'm really terrible with names, but...

Bastians (from Bast, obviously)
Sachmirians (from Sachmis, an alternative spelling of Sahkmet, who is sometimes associated with Bast, but is often depicted as a fierce warlike goddess of bloodlust, war, plagues, and healing. Keep in mind the Ancient Egyptians tended to view her as beating up disease, so...)
Samirians (from the above, with a few letters taken out)
Vanadirians (From Vanadis, which is another name for Freyja. She's not a cat god, but she is a goddess of magic, war, and does have a chariot pulled by cats.)
Durgans (From Durga, the hindu warrior goddess of motherhood and combating evil)

Unless I got the completely wrong idea, I do have to wonder about the mental stat for the 'Priestess' caste (that's not meant to be an exact term, just a way for me to refer the ones who tend to the Clan Mothers). The idea of a sort of tender and speaker of the Clan Mother is interesting, I like this. I can picture the Clan Mothers either choosing or only being able to communicate fully with the magically gifted subrace, and perhaps relying a lot on telepathy.

Ideas for Caste names: Huntresses, Warriors, Speakers. Obviously the first would be a translation, as a mono-gendered race would have no need for gendered words. But maybe they LIKE being considered female? I imagine that gender ideals seriously break down when you have so many races.

And yeah, that's a fairly accurate summary of a Felinoid's behavior. If you've ever watched Outlaw Star, they're not an entire race of Aisha Clan-Clans (I loathe kender too much to make that mistake!), but she's pretty much a dead ringer for the stereotypical Felinoid. If perhaps a little less interested in flirting.

"WENCH! DISROBE!"

Pretty much; I see these guys being Arcane Tricksters, Shadow Monks and Mystics, traditionally Immortals, Nomads and Soul Knives. You know, if Soul Knife was a little stronger.

Again, I do wonder if making a INT based shadow monk isn't a bad idea...I'm not fond of Monk/Warlock having as set of ability scores as the more defined Wizard, personally.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-19, 04:10 PM

Ah, I didn't know that. I had some idea that the technopriests were bonkers and did things ritualistically, but not THAT far. So thanks for clearing that up.

I could see a reason to develop this sort of theme, and a reason not to. If technology is supposed to be a lost art, then it makes sense. It could be frustrating for players, but maybe that isn't the right type of player for this game. Are the Scavvers meant to understand their tech, be relearning it, or well...Scavenging it?

Hell, with all of the technomancy, maybe they just shove real spirits into their armor. Could be elemental, magical, or even just dead people. Hi, grandma!
As I said earlier, in this setting, science is sorcery; more of an aesthetic than actually different to magic. So, what I was thinking is that "arcano-daemons" are a real thing - mostly, they're an excuse for the Scavvers to have magic items with intelligence as the norm. In origins, they're akin to familiars; ordinarily formless and mindless spirits imbued into physical gear and which develop intelligence and a personality as a result.

If the Aelfar are vain, it might appeal to them. Take a look at the orchid mantis, which does come in various colors. I could imagine the Kixians naturally having evolved showy colors to blend in with giant space flowers on their home world. Traditionalists like to meld their carapace as a form of art and personal expression, only changing it when they feel like they have undergone a serious personal transformation. Harmonists like to mimic the petal like colors of the Aelfar, feeling a sense of unity and because few humanoids outside of the Aelfar can really tell them apart if they aren't different colors.
Interesting, I definitely approve of that.

You could. It would certainly fit. Through I'd make the argument that going against type is equally as valid to play with troupes. Maybe they perceive themselves as tall and the perfect height and then there are all of these tall muscular weirdos all over the place. To them, they ARE tall, as they are taller then their ancestors. Beyond that just looks plain silly.
Hmm... I think I'll stick with making them taller than humans; scavvers fill the "short elf" role in many ways, I think.

I'm not the most focused of people, but I will argue that knowing what classes everyone is supposed to map to does help. Also, if we wind up with 12 paladin races and no sorcerer or rogue race, that's an issue. So getting a basic mix of classes is probably good, and then work out the kinks after their fluff.
Yeah, that's a reasonable argument, I'm in favor of that.

Aelfar, Kixian and Scavver, please. Since we have the fluff of those mostly figured out, it'll be interesting to see a playable version.
Alright. My time of strong connection is running out, so I'll get this to you and then work on the draft appearances and stats through the day.

I would agree, also, they are mutations. Earlier, you mentioned a type of half-Aelfar half-Scro, as well as Aelfar breeding them. That could explain a few subraces in such a short period of time. Also, I have a bias to Elf/Orc hybrids, since players tend to inquire about them, but they are never expanded upon.
Right. I was actually thinking that "Tel-Amhothlans" (name taken from the Kingdoms of Kalamar Elf/Orc) would have a seperate stat-block, though.

Still argue that some floating bonuses for the rest make some sense as well. I assume they are a varied race, after all.
I... don't quite follow what you're saying here?

True. But let's at least nail down iconic classes and stats, since that helps me with a mental image and again, we need a playable selection of races. Do they lead the armies or do any sort of priestly stuff in relation to the God-Emperors? I mean, God-Emperor does sorta have god in the title. Having their 'priests' be 'warlocks' would also make sense if they are not Astral Leyline Mages.
The Ryujin are the armies. These are the new soldier race, the backbone of the empire's military. Priest-commanders for their ranks do make sense.

I think it's a fun challenge, but let's tackle things one at a time. I think they are obviously meant as a mental race, and I think a lot of people would like that.
Agreed with this.

Curious as to why, because I feel like that would be a defining moment in their history. Admittedly, wisdom is always held as the stat being toted by the 'good' guys, so an inversion and giving it to the evil ones amuses me greatly.
Need to flesh it out, because I agree, but my basic idea is that the God-Emperors demand absolute loyalty and obedience, and oni... weren't very good at that. Too independent, too prone to rebellion or trying to subvert orders, too wiling to sympathize with their enemies.

They could be just more open. A slot for a creative player to toy around with ideas.
I don't follow what you mean by this?

Well...You have large grove worlds with immobile members. I assume those are still sapient beings? Maybe these guys aren't subraces, as much as different life stages. Seedling/Sapling/Treant/Rooted or something like that.

You could even do some weird stuff like them grafting each other onto physically stronger members for the adventurous players who want to do that. I wouldn't make it a COMMON option, but if we're going with crazy bio-tech, let's go all the way.

They could just have a billion genders like the slime mold. Space plants don't have to be entirely plant like, and there are many different plants that do have male and female plants, such as the gingko. I personally prefer them to be monoicous, as they present an alternative, saner, option to the Aelfar's weird intersex behavior.
What I'm thinking is to essentially borrow from the Adu'ja. Lotusians that choose to mature take root and become massive immobile plant-forms. These asexually produce new generations of lotusians from specialized flower or fruit-like wombs, at a very slow pace.

Adventuring lotusians are all one-gender in the sense that they are ungendered; they're not exactly sterile, but they have no ability to propagate unless they choose to make the game-ending decision to mature to the reproductive eform.

I'm really terrible with names, but...

Bastians (from Bast, obviously)
Sachmirians (from Sachmis, an alternative spelling of Sahkmet, who is sometimes associated with Bast, but is often depicted as a fierce warlike goddess of bloodlust, war, plagues, and healing. Keep in mind the Ancient Egyptians tended to view her as beating up disease, so...)
Samirians (from the above, with a few letters taken out)
Vanadirians (From Vanadis, which is another name for Freyja. She's not a cat god, but she is a goddess of magic, war, and does have a chariot pulled by cats.)
Durgans (From Durga, the hindu warrior goddess of motherhood and combating evil)

Unless I got the completely wrong idea, I do have to wonder about the mental stat for the 'Priestess' caste (that's not meant to be an exact term, just a way for me to refer the ones who tend to the Clan Mothers). The idea of a sort of tender and speaker of the Clan Mother is interesting, I like this. I can picture the Clan Mothers either choosing or only being able to communicate fully with the magically gifted subrace, and perhaps relying a lot on telepathy.

Ideas for Caste names: Huntresses, Warriors, Speakers. Obviously the first would be a translation, as a mono-gendered race would have no need for gendered words. But maybe they LIKE being considered female? I imagine that gender ideals seriously break down when you have so many races.
Of those, I like Vanadirians the best, personally. Sounds suitably exotic without being too tongue-twisting.

Agreed; I see the "Shamans" as literally and metaphoric ally being speakers for their telepathic clan mothers.

Personally, I'd say they like to be considered female; they technically are, after all, it's just that they have no native males. I'd actually say that Vanadirans could reproduce with humans and certain other male aliens, it's just the progeny of such is either a new Vanadiran (the majority of the time), or a male/female of the father's race.

Again, I do wonder if making a INT based shadow monk isn't a bad idea...I'm not fond of Monk/Warlock having as set of ability scores as the more defined Wizard, personally.
I... don't understand what you're talking about here.

Honest Tiefling

2017-06-19, 04:33 PM

Hmm... I think I'll stick with making them taller than humans; scavvers fill the "short elf" role in many ways, I think.

Yeah, that's probably a better argument. Tall would seem best so all of the INT races aren't terribly short.

Right. I was actually thinking that "Tel-Amhothlans" (name taken from the Kingdoms of Kalamar Elf/Orc) would have a seperate stat-block, though.

Argument for either arrangement, but if that is what you think is best, go with that. I do think some Aelfar breeds of Scro are a good basis of a subrace, and would establish the Aelfar as a major power.

I... don't quite follow what you're saying here?

I am not doing good at this communcation thing today, am I? I apologize in advance. But what I mean is that the Kixians, due to their nature of adapting themselves would be extremely varied. If their racial base was +1 WIS/+1 Float (with floating meaning any OTHER ability, much like a half-elf) with the subraces tacking on an additional ability score modifier, they could be varied. For instance, a traditonalist Kixian with the fighter class could do +1 WIS/+1 CON/+1 STR, which while not the most optimized wouldn't be awful for a fighter. A monk could make good use of +1 WIS/+1 DEX/+1 CON, as would a druid. A bard Harmonist could do +1 WIS/+1 DEX/+1 CHA and still be decent.

Are there bards in this setting? I could see an argument for and against.

The Ryujin are the armies. These are the new soldier race, the backbone of the empire's military. Priest-commanders for their ranks do make sense.

Need to flesh it out, because I agree, but my basic idea is that the God-Emperors demand absolute loyalty and obedience, and oni... weren't very good at that. Too independent, too prone to rebellion or trying to subvert orders, too wiling to sympathize with their enemies.

I think the traditional way of doing the spilt would be the the Oni are STR/CHA, with the Ryujin being STR/WIS. I love the idea of them being similar, but opposing each other in the mental stat. However, I'd argue that the Ryujin should be the STR/CHA, in that they have extreme amounts of willpower and are more charismatic as a second go. The Oni had empathy with others, which is often associated with wisdom. I see an argument for both, but I feel like I am not really helping if I don't mention the possibility.

Also, draconic bloodline sorcerer is still kinda a thing. Would that be thematically appropriate for a priest commander of the Ryujin armies?

I don't follow what you mean by this?

Sometimes, players like to play around with background elements. If the Gyokutoan are less defined and more varied, they allow a player to have more creative freedom within the setting as opposed to some of the other races, and they could be used in place of humans as the 'generic' race. The race you can slap most common backgrounds onto and still make sense, unlike the Aelfar who are very heavily defined.

What I'm thinking is to essentially borrow from the Adu'ja. Lotusians that choose to mature take root and become massive immobile plant-forms. These asexually produce new generations of lotusians from specialized flower or fruit-like wombs, at a very slow pace.

Adventuring lotusians are all one-gender in the sense that they are ungendered; they're not exactly sterile, but they have no ability to propagate unless they choose to make the game-ending decision to mature to the reproductive form.

Would that mean that a Lotusian only gains a gender in their traditional mindset once they become rooted? I could see an argument that it might be interesting for a race to actually take several years to define their own gender identity (and other aspects of their identity) rather then getting forced with one at birth that may or may not be accurate.

Would the rooted trees be telepathic? That would seem like a thing. Through maybe the plant people should also be telepathic, unless they have some sort of lungs? I would if you could get Lotusians on your ship to help convert CO2 back to oxygen...

Personally, I'd say they like to be considered female; they technically are, after all, it's just that they have no native males. I'd actually say that Vanadirans could reproduce with humans and certain other male aliens, it's just the progeny of such is either a new Vanadiran (the majority of the time), or a male/female of the father's race.

The problem is I could see with the gender issue is it does make sense for a majority of people with female bodies to identify as female. However, I never really got the impression that Vanadirans cared about other people's opinions, so their idea of what female is might come into conflict with what other races view as female. So in essence, most would be female, but they might decide that is an excuse to drink, grope at, piss on, steal, or ignite anything or anyone they want.

I... don't understand what you're talking about here.

Do you remember the Carmendine Monk feat from 3.5, where it made the monk Intelligence Based, not Wisdom Based? These guys seem great for Shadow Monks, but monks are wisdom based and that's an issue. Also, what would Ki even BE in this setting?

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-19, 05:36 PM

Yeah, that's probably a better argument. Tall would seem best so all of the INT races aren't terribly short.
Alright then. I just need to find the time and mojo to get the races written up, then. ;)

Argument for either arrangement, but if that is what you think is best, go with that. I do think some Aelfar breeds of Scro are a good basis of a subrace, and would establish the Aelfar as a major power.
Hmm... true, decisions, decisions...

I am not doing good at this communcation thing today, am I? I apologize in advance. But what I mean is that the Kixians, due to their nature of adapting themselves would be extremely varied. If their racial base was +1 WIS/+1 Float (with floating meaning any OTHER ability, much like a half-elf) with the subraces tacking on an additional ability score modifier, they could be varied. For instance, a traditonalist Kixian with the fighter class could do +1 WIS/+1 CON/+1 STR, which while not the most optimized wouldn't be awful for a fighter. A monk could make good use of +1 WIS/+1 DEX/+1 CON, as would a druid. A bard Harmonist could do +1 WIS/+1 DEX/+1 CHA and still be decent.
Ah! Yeah, that says a lot about the race, makes a lot of sense, and feels really fitting. Sold!

Are there bards in this setting? I could see an argument for and against.
Yes, there are bards here. It's a peculiar form of magic, but it's magic. And yes, you could do the equivalent of Bluegrass or Melodia from Silverhawks in this setting - at least, I wouldn't argue against it.

I think the traditional way of doing the spilt would be the the Oni are STR/CHA, with the Ryujin being STR/WIS. I love the idea of them being similar, but opposing each other in the mental stat. However, I'd argue that the Ryujin should be the STR/CHA, in that they have extreme amounts of willpower and are more charismatic as a second go. The Oni had empathy with others, which is often associated with wisdom. I see an argument for both, but I feel like I am not really helping if I don't mention the possibility.
Hmm... well, Dumbass Has A Point and Wisdom From The Gutter are tropes for a reason, and Oni do have a tendency to convert from evil in Japanese stories, so Str/Cha Ryujin and Str/Wis Oni sounds good to me.

Also, draconic bloodline sorcerer is still kinda a thing. Would that be thematically appropriate for a priest commander of the Ryujin armies?
Technically, yeah, although, given that Imperial Dragons are a very different beast - http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Imperial_dragon and http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary3/dragon.html - I would argue that a new version of the Draconic Bloodline is more fitting.

Sometimes, players like to play around with background elements. If the Gyokutoan are less defined and more varied, they allow a player to have more creative freedom within the setting as opposed to some of the other races, and they could be used in place of humans as the 'generic' race. The race you can slap most common backgrounds onto and still make sense, unlike the Aelfar who are very heavily defined.
Ah, now I see what you mean. Well, as my current plan for them is "reluctantly newly conquered vassal race with many still fighting for independence or having fled to the rest of the universe for safety", that's not necessarily incompatible, is it?

Would that mean that a Lotusian only gains a gender in their traditional mindset once they become rooted? I could see an argument that it might be interesting for a race to actually take several years to define their own gender identity (and other aspects of their identity) rather then getting forced with one at birth that may or may not be accurate.
Huh... now that you bring it up, that could be interesting.

Would the rooted trees be telepathic? That would seem like a thing. Through maybe the plant people should also be telepathic, unless they have some sort of lungs? I would if you could get Lotusians on your ship to help convert CO2 back to oxygen...
I was actually thinking pheromones that other lotusians have to "translate" for aliens, although telepathy with considerable effort works as a back-up, for the reproducing adults. For the "saplings" who're wandering the galaxy, probably best to have them speak conventionally.

The problem is I could see with the gender issue is it does make sense for a majority of people with female bodies to identify as female. However, I never really got the impression that Vanadirans cared about other people's opinions, so their idea of what female is might come into conflict with what other races view as female. So in essence, most would be female, but they might decide that is an excuse to drink, grope at, piss on, steal, or ignite anything or anyone they want.
Yeah; what I was basically thinking is "they call themselves female, but other races don't think of them as lady-like". Your typical Vanadiran is at best a Tomboy with a Girly Streak, and is more likely to be a Ladette. "Conventionally" feminine Vanadirans are a true rarity, and the closest most ever get is the Girly Bruiser archetype.

Do you remember the Carmendine Monk feat from 3.5, where it made the monk Intelligence Based, not Wisdom Based? These guys seem great for Shadow Monks, but monks are wisdom based and that's an issue. Also, what would Ki even BE in this setting?
Ah, I see. Yeah, that does make sense.

As for Ki, I'm going to take a leaf out of 4e's book and say it and psionic energy are one and the same, monks and mystics are just different ways of manipulating it.

Honest Tiefling

2017-06-19, 07:07 PM

Yes, there are bards here. It's a peculiar form of magic, but it's magic. And yes, you could do the equivalent of Bluegrass or Melodia from Silverhawks in this setting - at least, I wouldn't argue against it.

You do realize the pun of a Lotusian bard using the power of Bluegrass, right?

Now that I am seeing Lotusian more, I kinda like it, but Lotuses aren't trees. But maybe Space Lotuses are aquatic tree things.

Hmm... well, Dumbass Has A Point and Wisdom From The Gutter are tropes for a reason, and Oni do have a tendency to convert from evil in Japanese stories, so Str/Cha Ryujin and Str/Wis Oni sounds good to me.

So now we have a battle cleric/druid race. I could also see Ryujin becoming warlocks in the service of their god emperors, while Oni have to go with other means and tap into astral ley lines since they can't get patronage. Maybe the God-Emperors of Aurian took away their sorcererous bloodlines, so the only ones who have sorcery are the ones who got it from contact with magic, not descent. I doubt many people are going to care that a race without a charisma boost can't be sorcerers anyway.

Technically, yeah, although, given that Imperial Dragons are a very different beast - http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Imperial_dragon and http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary3/dragon.html - I would argue that a new version of the Draconic Bloodline is more fitting.

Only issue I see is that since the Draconic origin is often the better of the two vanilla bloodlines. I wouldn't be so picky about it, but Wild Mage is one of those 'love it or hate it' subclasses. It also requires more DM intervention (and just plain remembering to do things), so may not fit every table.

It also has the problem that it might not fit thematically with the world. Magic and technology are blurry lines, but if your magitech keeps exploding at random, that's a strange thing. It doesn't fit the air of exploration and the desire to know things that often permeates sci-fi and by extension, space fantasy. Could be from Far Realm magic with Lovecraftian undertones?
I have no idea how you feel about UA, so that might be an option.

Ah, now I see what you mean. Well, as my current plan for them is "reluctantly newly conquered vassal race with many still fighting for independence or having fled to the rest of the universe for safety", that's not necessarily incompatible, is it?

Yes and no. Not all back stories will fit, but I think a lot of 'common people thrust into adventure' type deals could work here. It doesn't need to be a perfect fit nor fit everything, just perhaps they are often farmers and colonists and are widespread, so the player has some leeway in their culture?

I was actually thinking pheromones that other lotusians have to "translate" for aliens, although telepathy with considerable effort works as a back-up, for the reproducing adults. For the "saplings" who're wandering the galaxy, probably best to have them speak conventionally.

Pheromones is a mundane solution that hasn't been done in this setting yet. So I think that's an even better way. Through I still wonder how Lotusian lungs work...

Yeah; what I was basically thinking is "they call themselves female, but other races don't think of them as lady-like". Your typical Vanadiran is at best a Tomboy with a Girly Streak, and is more likely to be a Ladette. "Conventionally" feminine Vanadirans are a true rarity, and the closest most ever get is the Girly Bruiser archetype.

I take it they don't see themselves that way, they are perfectly feminine and everyone else is just screwing it up!

As for Ki, I'm going to take a leaf out of 4e's book and say it and psionic energy are one and the same, monks and mystics are just different ways of manipulating it.

I feel like this is a very sci-fi way of handling it, so I think that works. Not sure how you'd make Voidstalkers into monks, but would that mean that some monks could be intelligence based, or perhaps certain subclasses? If monks are intelligence based, I wonder if Psion/monk builds become far better...

So...What is Scavver culture like? They are modest, but people just don't do modesty for the sake of modesty. What motivates them to do that?

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-20, 01:32 PM

You do realize the pun of a Lotusian bard using the power of Bluegrass, right?

Now that I am seeing Lotusian more, I kinda like it, but Lotuses aren't trees. But maybe Space Lotuses are aquatic tree things.
Yeah, I get the pun. The characters still fit, because they used an electronic guitar and a keytar to fire deadly sonic blasts at people... yeah, it was incredibly 80s.

We can keep the aquatic thing. I just said they become immobile plant-forms; an elder lotusian may be a gargantuan, flower-covered aquatic treant-expy.

So now we have a battle cleric/druid race. I could also see Ryujin becoming warlocks in the service of their god emperors, while Oni have to go with other means and tap into astral ley lines since they can't get patronage. Maybe the God-Emperors of Aurian took away their sorcererous bloodlines, so the only ones who have sorcery are the ones who got it from contact with magic, not descent. I doubt many people are going to care that a race without a charisma boost can't be sorcerers anyway.
Hmm... interesting idea.

Only issue I see is that since the Draconic origin is often the better of the two vanilla bloodlines. I wouldn't be so picky about it, but Wild Mage is one of those 'love it or hate it' subclasses. It also requires more DM intervention (and just plain remembering to do things), so may not fit every table.

It also has the problem that it might not fit thematically with the world. Magic and technology are blurry lines, but if your magitech keeps exploding at random, that's a strange thing. It doesn't fit the air of exploration and the desire to know things that often permeates sci-fi and by extension, space fantasy. Could be from Far Realm magic with Lovecraftian undertones?
I have no idea how you feel about UA, so that might be an option.
I just feel that an Imperial Dragon bloodline offers a more flavorful alternative.

As for Wild Mages... personally, for the reason you said, I think it makes sense if wild mages are very rare, usually associated with primitive planets and/or races - for example, traggen. I have some sorcerer subclasses homebrewed already, like the Arcanist (a "natural prodigy at magic" sorcerer) and the Voidsoul (a necromancy sorcerer), so I'm not verse to the idea of cooking up more new ones for the setting - or even subclasses for other classes. I thinking a "Gun Fuist" subclass for monks could be interesting.

Yes and no. Not all back stories will fit, but I think a lot of 'common people thrust into adventure' type deals could work here. It doesn't need to be a perfect fit nor fit everything, just perhaps they are often farmers and colonists and are widespread, so the player has some leeway in their culture?
Alright, cool, that's helpful... I think?

Pheromones is a mundane solution that hasn't been done in this setting yet. So I think that's an even better way. Through I still wonder how Lotusian lungs work...
Best not to go down that route, or you'll find yourself wondering how dragonborn don't kill themselves the first time they use their breath weapon.

I take it they don't see themselves that way, they are perfectly feminine and everyone else is just screwing it up!
Heh, pretty much.

I feel like this is a very sci-fi way of handling it, so I think that works. Not sure how you'd make Voidstalkers into monks, but would that mean that some monks could be intelligence based, or perhaps certain subclasses? If monks are intelligence based, I wonder if Psion/monk builds become far better...
In all honesty, I kind of think of the Mystic as more of "mystical monk" than the actual Monk is, given the latter's ki pool is so shallow that most of it is spent on kicking seven shades of snot out stuff with its bare hands. But, yeah, I get what you mean.

So...What is Scavver culture like? They are modest, but people just don't do modesty for the sake of modesty. What motivates them to do that?
I... don't really have any clue right now, I'm sad to say. It could be a religious commandment? The face in particular is an intimacy that should be shared only with the most worthy?

Anyway, I promised appearance & stat-block writeups, and here they are at last - oh, and good news; I got the go-ahead to use that variant quarian face from the artists who drew her! Now, I struggled a little here and there, but I'm pretty happy with the appearance write-ups.

Statblocks... could use some work, though. I like the Aelfar, but I found the Scavver in particular leaving me drawing a blank. But, hey, that's something we can discuss, right?

Aelfar
The Aelfar are a tall - averaging just over 6ft - race of humanoids who appear very similar to humans. The most prominent differences are their ears, which are elongated triangles in shape, akin to carving knife blades, and their coloration. An aelfar's skin is uniformly pale, almost marble like thanks to its white or light-gray tones. Their hair comes in a variety of unearthly colors, most commonly blue, green, red or yellow; vibrantly colored at birth, aelfarian hair fades in color as they mature, and most adults have lightly colored hair. The paler an aelfar's hair is, the older they are; a chalky white hue is seen only the eldest of their kind, those nearing their death of old age. Their eyes are the most brightly colored parts of them, coming various hues of lilac, silver, pink, red and blue.

To human eyes, aelfar look rather effeminate; they are slenderly built and waifish in appearance, with long, graceful, five-fingered hands. Making matters more confusing, aelfar have virtually no sexual dimorphism when compared to humans; males and females have similarly delicate facial features, with none of the obvious secondary or tertiary sexual traits that define humans, like jawline shape or shoulder width. This is not helped by the fact that, apart from their scalps, aelfar are naturally hairless, nor especially by the fact that aelfarian flesh-crafting lore makes modifying genders not much more of an effort than switching clothes. The aelfar race includes a sizable percentage of intersexual or fully hermaphroditic individuals. Add to this their unusual cultural stance on gender identities and it only becomes harder - "Mothers" usually have larger, more pronounced breasts and hips, for reproductive purposes, but this does not equate to the presence of female genitalia nor prevent a Mother from preferring male pronouns. For politeness, it's best to observe what an aelfar indicates they wish to be called and use those terms, regardless of apparent sex.

Aelfar take great pride in their appearance, and their clothing tastes run towards the minimalistic. The typical aelfar wears intricately woven arrays of strap-like cloth or veils, which conceals the genitalia but exposes most of the rest of the body. Fashion and practicality often conflict, but the aelfar do usually give some nods to practicality; only a truly skilled or impossibly arrogant aelfar warrior would go into battle wearing the same near-nonexistent ceremonial armor used in their dueling games.

Aelfar take a great deal of pride in their hair, and tend to grow it as long as they possibly can, working it into intricate braids. For respected matriarchs, the resultant train can require dedicated servants to carry it, stretching several times longer than its owner is tall.

Aelfar
Ability Score Modifiers: +2 Charisma, +1 Intelligence. Aelfar are a cunning and well-studied breed, but their ethereal - if alien - beauty and iron wills are far more prominent characteristics.
Size: Medium
Speed: 30 feet
Vision: Darkvision 60 feet
Artisan of Flesh and Bone: You have Proficiency in Medicine.
Survival of the Fittest: You increase your maximum hit points by +1, and gain a further +1 increase to maximum hitpoints with each level you gain.
Unholy Vitality: When spending Hit Dice to regain hit points during a short rest, you regain dice roll + Constitution score hit points per Hit Dice, instead of dice roll + Constitution modifier. Additionally, if you have a Lingering Injury (DMG pg 272), you will heal from that injury after completing three long rests, or two long rests if you can consume twice your daily requirement in food and water during each long rest.

Racial Feat: Aelfar Magic
Prerequisite: Aelfar race
Whilst not all aelfar embrace magic fully, many do pick up certain hexes that their species has an affinity for.
Effect: You gain the Dark Mastery racial trait.

Dark Mastery: You can cast the Chill Touch cantrip. At 3rd level, you can cast Cure Wounds as a 1st level spell. At 5th level, you can cast Entrhall as a 2nd level spell. When you cast Cure Wounds or Enthrall using this trait, you cannot use it again until you complete a long rest. Charisma is your casting ability score for spells cast with this trait.

Kixian
The kixians are a race of humanoid insects, who have split into three distinctive subspecies via the use of flesh-crafting techniques as a result of philosophical debates. The only thing all species have in common are the fact they are covered from head to toe in chitinous armor plating. The colors of this chitin vary wildly, depending on individual taste, though most packs tend to take on similar (though not identical) color-schemes, in a combination of primeval instinct and display of solidarity.

The Traditionalist kixian resembles nothing so much as a praying mantis the size of a person. There are subtle differences, however. First and foremost, whereas a true praying mantis stands on four legs, with its forelimbs modified into bladed grabbing limbs, this breed of kixian stands upright on only two legs, which sprout at the intersection of thorax and abdomen. The other two pairs of limbs are functioning arms; the topmost pair positioned at the top of the thorax, where a human's arms would be, and the second pair being positioned midway down the thorax. The uppermost arms still resemble those of their ancient predatory ancestors, consisting of a scythe-blade-like forearm with a wickedly sharp serrated edge. This pair of limbs is somewhat oversized, necessitating it be folded back against the upper arm, courtesy of an upside down elbow, in the characteristic mantis pose. The lower arms end in fundamentally human-like hands, although the elongated fingers are wickedly sharp at the tip, making them decent secondary melee weapons in a pinch. Most Traditionalists file these claws down for safety when interacting with other races, something that must be repeated as the claws sharpen themselves again through use. These lower arms have double-jointed elbows, allowing them to be bent normally and upside down, by human standards. The legs are exaggeratedly thin, digitgrade appendages, with two long, flexible toe-claws on the foot. The head has the classic upside-down pyramid shape of a mantis, complete with eyes and antennae, although with complicated mandibles that allow it to pronounce Common speech, admittedly with an accent that involves trilling Rs and hard, staccato clicks. Its abdomen is an elongated cylinder, identical in appearance to a mantid's, but lacking wings in any form.

The Harmonist kixian has sought to mold its shape into a more human-like approximation. Its legs, whilst still digitigrade, are shorter, thicker, and tucked directly under the body. Its head is now rounded and its face restructured to a more human-like form, although the lack of a nose, ears or pupils makes its face very alien-looking. Its upper arms have been modified; though still oversized in comparison to the lower arms, they are no longer bladed points, and instead end in clumsy, tri-taloned hands that serve to grasp, rend and shred. The abdomen is notably shorter, as more of the internal organs have been moved to the drastically thicker thorax - kixians of this kind are still impossibly wasp-waisted by human standards. Some female kixians of the Harmonist class have been known to modify themselves to the extent of having pseudo-breasts; these are completely non-functional in the biological sense, being merely breast-shaped mounds of exposed skin devoid of the normal chitious plating. However, they are fully functional in the sexual sense, being very sensitive and far more accessible than the traditional patches of exposed flesh used for stimulatory purposes. More Harmonist females take this mod for that purpose than for its original intended function of better blending into mammalian gender-norms. Still, it's a minority mod at best, though slowly gaining acceptance.

The Integrator kixian, on the other hand, is drastically altered from its ancestral form. Having lost their secondary arms altogether and having restructured their legs to a plantigrade format, they also have much more human-looking faces; chitinous plates, carefully cultivated, form crests and other shapes that emulate hair-style and ears. A similar plating of chitin between the eyes give some appearance of a nose. Most importantly, their primary eyes have pupils, which helps make them look much more human than one may expect. An Integrator's hands are functionally and visually identical to the manipulator-hands of a Traditionalist. Their abdomen is extremely small, almost vestigial, and their waists are much more human-like in shape to account for the increased presence of organs. The pseudo-breast mod is far more common amongst Integrator females, although still not universal; evidence suggests roughly 50% of females possess the trait, although the number is increasing.

In all species, females are notably larger than the males, a carry-over trait from their ancient ancestors. Harmonists and Integrators do not speak with the same "accent" as Traditionalists do - at least, not to the same degree. Integrators usually have no trace of the accent at all, unless they allow themselves to grow upset or they are speaking their traditional language.

Kixian, Core
Ability Score Modifiers: +1 Wisdom, +1 to one ability score of your choice
Size: Medium
Speed: 30 feet
Vision: Darkvision 60 feet
Subrace: Choose either the Traditionalist, Harmonist or Integrator subrace. This determines the rest of your racial abilities.

Kixian, Traditionalist
Ability Score Modifier: +1 Strength
Hunter's Instincts: You have Proficiency in Survival and Athletics.
Battle-Hardened Carapace: When unarmored, your natural AC is 13 + Dexterity modifier. When wearing armor that would give you a lower AC, you can choose to use your natural AC. A shield's benefits apply as normal whilst using your natural armor.
Scything Blades: Your Unarmed Strikes do 1d8 Slashing damage.

Kixian, Harmonist
Ability Score Modifier: +1 Intelligence
Rending Claws: Your Unarmed Strikes do 1d6 Slashing damage.
Hybrid Vitality: You increase your maximum hit points by +1, and gain a further +1 increase to maximum hitpoints with each level you gain.
Broadened Mind: You have Proficiency in one Wisdom or Intelligence skill of your choice.

Kixian, Integrator
Ability Score Modifier: +2 Charisma
Taloned Fingers: Your Unarmed Strikes do 1d4 Slashing damage.
Bred for Diplomacy: You have Proficiency in Deception and Persuasion.

"Scavver"
Scavvers are short, waifish, delicately built humanoids, perhaps more famous for their modesty than their appearance. For cultural reasons, scavvers find it unthinkable to expose bare skin to others, especially the face, which is reserved only for the most private and intimate of settings. In casual settings, scavvers traditionally wear long gloves and sock-like appendages under flowing robes; as such apparel is often impractical, most instead settle for all-concealing "body-glove" style suits, which are the most recognizable of scavver apparel.

Despite common assumptions otherwise, scavvers are actually not prudish, nor are they asexual. Although modesty demands the body be covered, that doesn't mean they can't be... enticing whilst clothed. For example, skin-tight body-gloves that leave nothing to the imagination, or layers of translucent veils that provide a tantalizing hint of the body beneath, whilst still covering everything from view. These would be considered very daring, but not scandalous - so long as the scavver retains that most iconic emblem of their people, their mask. The naked face is the most intimate of sights in scavver culture, granted only to lovers and children.

If one were to somehow see a scavver undressed, then they would see a small, sylphish humanoid. A scavver's face is not too dissimilar to a human's, in terms of its outline, although there are fine differences. Their almond-shaped eyes have black sclera and vibrantly colored irises, whilst their noses are comparatively subtle and sharp. Their large ears resemble upside-down teardrops, with a sharply pointed, conical lobe and a wide, flattened oval for the upper part of the ear. Back-sweeping, chitinous horn-like growths that lie close against the scalp add a further sense of alienness; females have three horns, with one on each temple and a third in the center of the forehead, whilst males only have the two horns on the temples. The skin itself is a pale, blue-tinged white, uncomfortably like a frozen corpse in the opinions on some particularly sensitive souls. Attached to a human-like torso are two slender arms ending in delicate, three-fingered hands with particularly long and expressive digits, excellently suited for fine work. Not least of which because the outer fingers are actually opposeable thumbs. The legs are digitigrade, ending in a three-toed, hoof-like paw; a single massive central toe with a powerful curving nail dominates the foot, with a smaller toe to either side of the foot. Finally, the most obviously inhuman feature of all, one visible even through their usual apparel: all scavvers sport long, prehensile tails, serpentine in shape.

Scavvers are an advanced form of monotreme; though the females sport breasts and suckle their offspring on milk, and both sexes are warm-blooded, they are egg-layers.

Scavver
Ability Score Modifiers: +2 Intelligence, +1 Dexterity
Size: Small
Speed: 30 feet
Vision: Normal
Arcanotech Expertise: You add double your Proficiency bonus to any Intelligence check relating to magical or technomagical items.
Prehensile Tail: You have a prehensile tail, which you can use as a tertiary hand. You can wield a weapon in it, following the normal rules for wielding multiple weapons (PHB pg 195).
Tinker: As per the Rock Gnome racial trait (PHB pg 37).

Honest Tiefling

2017-06-20, 03:53 PM

We can keep the aquatic thing. I just said they become immobile plant-forms; an elder lotusian may be a gargantuan, flower-covered aquatic treant-expy.

Somehow seems appropriate to me. I also like the idea of aquatic treants.

I just feel that an Imperial Dragon bloodline offers a more flavorful alternative.

As for Wild Mages... personally, for the reason you said, I think it makes sense if wild mages are very rare, usually associated with primitive planets and/or races - for example, traggen. I have some sorcerer subclasses homebrewed already, like the Arcanist (a "natural prodigy at magic" sorcerer) and the Voidsoul (a necromancy sorcerer), so I'm not verse to the idea of cooking up more new ones for the setting - or even subclasses for other classes. I thinking a "Gun Fuist" subclass for monks could be interesting.

Not saying to not change it, just make sure it's very functional and usable for many different sorcerers. Through if you intend other bloodlines, that's not an issue. Neither Scro nor Traggen have a CHA stat boost, and I am pretty sure neither would have any castery goodies. Would another race be appropriate? Maybe Scavvers nuked their planet with wild magic? Through they have the same issue.

Through, ah, I am guessing no sorcerer is a sorcerer from descent?

Alright, cool, that's helpful... I think?

I think I am not being clear. I think keeping the Gyokotan as a more vaired race that is plentiful with different colonies will help people develop their own colony of these guys. Just if players want to.

Best not to go down that route, or you'll find yourself wondering how dragonborn don't kill themselves the first time they use their breath weapon.

True, but if you stab a Lotusian in the chest area and they DON'T have lungs, I would assume you'd just feel a little silly for not understanding their biology.

I... don't really have any clue right now, I'm sad to say. It could be a religious commandment? The face in particular is an intimacy that should be shared only with the most worthy?

As I sit here, covered in sunscreen, I do wonder if maybe their planet had a lot of sun. If we toss out science, they could have originated from a planet with two suns and they were originally cave dwelling creatures that put on clothes to venture outside. That, or to explain their vision, they came from a very cold planet, so getting any sun was important. They just kept culturally going with the whole idea of keeping clothes on and went with it.

I wouldn't do the religious angle unless you want to expand on their religion, which could be interesting. Since they have some sort of machine-spirits which are real, maybe they are animists? Don't flash your goodies at the spirit that lives in the console, please, they don't like it.

You ah, also realize that the Aelfar making bigger boobs for child rearing isn't really logical, right? Boobs of all sizes make equivalent amounts of milk. Size is related to muscle tissue and body fat, not the actual gland. It would make more sense if the process of becoming pregnant causes that, as it does in humanoids with the hormones.

I also note you aren't going with the idea of them being sensitive to light. I personally liked that, as it might have meant they adapted to being on a ship or were just from a dark planet or were just plain nocturnal. (maybe even a rogue planet!). However, there would be the concern that such an issue could easily be fixed with sunglasses or transitional lenses in the 80's space fantasy. Then again, it sorta reminded me of the Cardassians, so maybe I am biased?

As for the Aelfar stats, I feel like constitution based stuff is good for pretty much any class. Oddly, they'd make for good Wild Mages because you could more easily recover from a mistake and probably not be all that bad as a paladin/sorcerer hybrid. They aren't as attractive for a wizard, but...Would the Aelfar be wizards or sorcerers? Nothing says a sorcerer has to be wildly ignorant about magic. Maybe they felt like grafting on an innate sorcerous talent to their race. Are they a race that would value an innate talent and skill with magic, or would they prefer centuries of study? I can really see an Aelfar bard, wielding both expertise in magic and deadly grace. I might be on the wrong track, however.

I am not going to pretend that I am great at balance, but I worry that they are a bit weaker as they are more about mitigating damage and recovering during downtime (which some tables just handwave). Maybe tack on an extra skill to make them more in line with a half elf? Could represent study if they are more studious.

The Scavvers on the other hand...I really think that their expertise could quickly get out of hand. I don't know how often Technomagical items will appear, or how you intend to handle alternate skill checks, but I think that might be going a little too far. I would swap it with a free Expertise from a selected list, so it still has the flavor and can't be used to get expertise in perception, but it won't be quite so powerful. Also, it would make multiple Scavvers a little redundant.

Wielding a weapon in their tail implies it is more like the tails of 4e tieflings (which were huge), which I think is an interesting choice. However, I could see a problem that someone tries to put a minigun onto their tail. I don't know if that is supposed to be a valid response, but I think limiting it to a special type of weapon (like a tail blade) or light weapons might prevent someone climbing and attacking someone with a flamethrower attached to their butt. Also, what about making sleight of hand checks or reloading weapons?

EDIT: Added more, as plans changed.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-20, 06:55 PM

Not saying to not change it, just make sure it's very functional and usable for many different sorcerers. Through if you intend other bloodlines, that's not an issue. Neither Scro nor Traggen have a CHA stat boost, and I am pretty sure neither would have any castery goodies. Would another race be appropriate? Maybe Scavvers nuked their planet with wild magic? Through they have the same issue.
Would another race be appropriate for what? Wild Magic? I figure it's probably pretty common amongst humans, snapperjaws (yeah, they don't have a Cha bonus, but not all races are optimised for some classes, right?), traggen and "strong-blooded" vanadirans, myself.

Through, ah, I am guessing no sorcerer is a sorcerer from descent?
Sorry, I think you got your words wrong here? What do you mean?

I think I am not being clear. I think keeping the Gyokotan as a more varied race that is plentiful with different colonies will help people develop their own colony of these guys. Just if players want to.
Oh, I can agree with that stance. There's plenty of possibilities for newfound colonies or even remnants of the old Gyokotan territories that haven't fallen under Aurian Control yet.

True, but if you stab a Lotusian in the chest area and they DON'T have lungs, I would assume you'd just feel a little silly for not understanding their biology.
It's not so much they don't have lungs as they're not as vital an organ as they are for humans. :P

As I sit here, covered in sunscreen, I do wonder if maybe their planet had a lot of sun. If we toss out science, they could have originated from a planet with two suns and they were originally cave dwelling creatures that put on clothes to venture outside. That, or to explain their vision, they came from a very cold planet, so getting any sun was important. They just kept culturally going with the whole idea of keeping clothes on and went with it.
Hm... cold-worlders actually has a promising start to it. Clothing was necessary for survival, and maybe that's even why they left; their sun was dying, perhaps artificially destabilised, and their world was becoming too cold even for their technology to make it livable? Which further explains the worldships: this way, they will never be at the whims of a single sun again.

I wouldn't do the religious angle unless you want to expand on their religion, which could be interesting. Since they have some sort of machine-spirits which are real, maybe they are animists? Don't flash your goodies at the spirit that lives in the console, please, they don't like it.
I'm not a huge expert on religion, it honestly kind of leaves me cold, but if we go with the exo-daemon angle, maybe the two can support each other somehow?

You ah, also realize that the Aelfar making bigger boobs for child rearing isn't really logical, right? Boobs of all sizes make equivalent amounts of milk. Size is related to muscle tissue and body fat, not the actual gland. It would make more sense if the process of becoming pregnant causes that, as it does in humanoids with the hormones.
What I was saying in that writeup is that many Mothers exaggerate the process as a status symbol; as you've said, breast size increases due to a side-effect of pregnancy hormones, so bumping up breasts, whilst not a practical buff, can, for many Mothers, be an obvious way to signal their status - "See these tits? I have undertaken the great duty and suckled children, I am a Mother, I am to be respected".

After all, our own racial attraction to big boobs, despite size not equating to efficiency, stems from instinctive appraisal of and attraction to that phenomena, so in a culture where being a biological mother is Important, many would see it as making sense to emphasize what nature has given them as a permanent show of status, you follow me?

It's not that they grow bigger tits to become Mothers, it's that many Mothers exaggerate their bustiness with flesh-crafting to make it obvious at a glance that they are Mothers.

I also note you aren't going with the idea of them being sensitive to light. I personally liked that, as it might have meant they adapted to being on a ship or were just from a dark planet or were just plain nocturnal. (maybe even a rogue planet!). However, there would be the concern that such an issue could easily be fixed with sunglasses or transitional lenses in the 80's space fantasy. Then again, it sorta reminded me of the Cardassians, so maybe I am biased?
I was kind of unsure if we should give them Sunlight Sensitivity, but then, it would heighten the "Drow in Space" angle, so... yeah, if you agree it's a good idea, I'm happy to add that in, and maybe bump them up to Superior Darkvision.

Honest Tiefling

2017-06-20, 07:39 PM

Would another race be appropriate for what? Wild Magic? I figure it's probably pretty common amongst humans, snapperjaws (yeah, they don't have a Cha bonus, but not all races are optimised for some classes, right?), traggen and "strong-blooded" vanadirans, myself.

...I like the idea of it being a Vanadiran thing. Their Clan Mothers have learned to focus the chaotic energies, but the weaker Vanadirans haven't always mastered this.

Then again, I think I'm just stuck on the idea of a Vanadiran screaming 'I'M A WILD MAGE! FIGHT ME, YOU COWARDLY WEAKLINGS!'

Sorry, I think you got your words wrong here? What do you mean?

In that sorcerers are not born because a outsider or other magical creature diddled their great-grand-pappy. Seems like some bloodlines should be 'gifted' due to the genre, but not because of interspecies canoodling.

Oh, I can agree with that stance. There's plenty of possibilities for newfound colonies or even remnants of the old Gyokotan territories that haven't fallen under Aurian Control yet.

I think that is perfect to leave as a less defined race for player input. Also makes things move alive if events are currently unfolding.

It's not so much they don't have lungs as they're not as vital an organ as they are for humans. :P

"You, uh...Know that I can breathe partially through my skin, right? Do you need some help or a moment to reconsider your life choices?"

Hm... cold-worlders actually has a promising start to it. Clothing was necessary for survival, and maybe that's even why they left; their sun was dying, perhaps artificially destabilised, and their world was becoming too cold even for their technology to make it livable? Which further explains the worldships: this way, they will never be at the whims of a single sun again.

Again, fitting for the genre, through I'd make it that it happened over thousands of years. A gradual chill of the world might have affected their farming so badly they had to leave before things went full Hoth. And yeah, that makes sense. Why hope for the perfect planet when you can MAKE it?

I'm not a huge expert on religion, it honestly kind of leaves me cold, but if we go with the exo-daemon angle, maybe the two can support each other somehow?

They could just worship the exo-demons in such a way that they respect their exo-demons and view them as a part of their world ships (another reason planets are dumb). They don't think these spirits are all-powerful, but seek harmony with such helpful spirits that have been their allies for untold generations. They could be machine elementals, even.

Also, maybe Scavvers should have some resistance to cold or be adapted to cold environments? The former can be useful and the latter could just be a fun RP thing for Hoth adventures.

What I was saying in that writeup is that many Mothers exaggerate the process as a status symbol; as you've said, breast size increases due to a side-effect of pregnancy hormones, so bumping up breasts, whilst not a practical buff, can, for many Mothers, be an obvious way to signal their status - "See these tits? I have undertaken the great duty and suckled children, I am a Mother, I am to be respected".

I never thought I'd say this as a reason for bigger ta-tas that does make sense. But what prevents a non-pregnant Aelfar from increasing her bust size to appear pregnant? Or add on some extra boobs? (Bow before me, for I have triplets!) Actually, how would Aelfar feel about multiple births?

After all, our own racial attraction to big boobs, despite size not equating to efficiency, stems from instinctive appraisal of and attraction to that phenomena, so in a culture where being a biological mother is Important, many would see it as making sense to emphasize what nature has given them as a permanent show of status, you follow me?

That also makes sense. Through our attraction to them is a result of them being a signal of fertility and possibly a signal that a potential mate has sufficient body fat for reproduction. Also, there have been many time periods where bigger wasn't always better. I would imagine that SOME restraint should be shown here, else they're going to look like telephone poles with beachballs tacked on...And I doubt anyone could take that seriously.

I was kind of unsure if we should give them Sunlight Sensitivity, but then, it would heighten the "Drow in Space" angle, so... yeah, if you agree it's a good idea, I'm happy to add that in, and maybe bump them up to Superior Darkvision.

Again, I sorta like the idea of them having differences to highlight their origin on different planets. Would also mean their ships are naturally dark. Also mean that the Kixians aren't bothered by their ships at all, which is a nice touch.

Before I touch the Kixians, however, how would their arm-blades interact with the monk class? I don't think there is a consensus on how it is supposed to work.

Also, I don't agree with the armor bonus of the Traditionalists. While it makes a lot of sense, it is something that would only be used by casters, as everyone else could equip magical armor to get something better. For a Barbarian, using that over Unarmored Defense would only net a +1 AC (assuming 14 constitution) if they choose to go unarmored. I think the Composite Plating of the Warforged is better if the race is meant to appeal to figher/rangers/barbarians and not casters. I don't think having the trait grant more AC at a higher level would be a bad choice, since I have heard that the Warforged can be a little weak.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-20, 09:21 PM

Firstly, sorry for not answering these in my last post; I didn't realize you'd edited whilst I was trying to get it written and posted.

Also, I realised I forgot to metion this before, but I'm quie comfortable with UA stuff, so presume things like the Celestial Warlock, the Theurge Wizard and the Favored Soul Sorcerer all exist in this setting.

As for the Aelfar stats, I feel like constitution based stuff is good for pretty much any class. Oddly, they'd make for good Wild Mages because you could more easily recover from a mistake and probably not be all that bad as a paladin/sorcerer hybrid. They aren't as attractive for a wizard, but...Would the Aelfar be wizards or sorcerers? Nothing says a sorcerer has to be wildly ignorant about magic. Maybe they felt like grafting on an innate sorcerous talent to their race. Are they a race that would value an innate talent and skill with magic, or would they prefer centuries of study? I can really see an Aelfar bard, wielding both expertise in magic and deadly grace. I might be on the wrong track, however.
I'd say that Aelfars are equally likely to be both Sorcerers and Wizards. They are naturally magical (+2 Cha), and so Sorcery is very common in their ranks, but they prize studied, honed, practiced skill - talent can only carry you so far on its own, and hard work will beat somebody who just coasts by on natural gifts in the end.

I am not going to pretend that I am great at balance, but I worry that they are a bit weaker as they are more about mitigating damage and recovering during downtime (which some tables just handwave). Maybe tack on an extra skill to make them more in line with a half elf? Could represent study if they are more studious.
Hmm... I just don't know. It'd be handy if we could get another mind or two in who has an interest in this kind of crunch.

The Scavvers on the other hand...I really think that their expertise could quickly get out of hand. I don't know how often Technomagical items will appear, or how you intend to handle alternate skill checks, but I think that might be going a little too far. I would swap it with a free Expertise from a selected list, so it still has the flavor and can't be used to get expertise in perception, but it won't be quite so powerful. Also, it would make multiple Scavvers a little redundant.
Hmm... that's a promising idea, it could work better.

Wielding a weapon in their tail implies it is more like the tails of 4e tieflings (which were huge), which I think is an interesting choice. However, I could see a problem that someone tries to put a minigun onto their tail. I don't know if that is supposed to be a valid response, but I think limiting it to a special type of weapon (like a tail blade) or light weapons might prevent someone climbing and attacking someone with a flamethrower attached to their butt. Also, what about making sleight of hand checks or reloading weapons?
Per the rules I referenced, you can't use an off-hand weapon unless it has the Light weapon property. So, you could tail-fight with a dagger or a sickle, but not a greatsword. Though you have a point that more explicitly stating "one-handed weapons only" works better to ensure no munchkin will try and abuse their poor DM.

Those are good ideas, to have the tail be useful for picking pockets and reloading, but I'm just not sure how to handle the crunchy side of writing that up. Any suggestions?

...I like the idea of it being a Vanadiran thing. Their Clan Mothers have learned to focus the chaotic energies, but the weaker Vanadirans haven't always mastered this.

Then again, I think I'm just stuck on the idea of a Vanadiran screaming 'I'M A WILD MAGE! FIGHT ME, YOU COWARDLY WEAKLINGS!'
Heh, it is an amusing image, isn't it? ;)

In that sorcerers are not born because a outsider or other magical creature diddled their great-grand-pappy. Seems like some bloodlines should be 'gifted' due to the genre, but not because of interspecies canoodling.
Ah, I see! Yeah, sorcery in this setting is a case of just natural racial ability, not so much extraplanar influence. Still occasionally interspecies cannoodling, but more along the lines of "great-great-grandma was an elf, so I'm an Enchanter".

I think that is perfect to leave as a less defined race for player input. Also makes things move alive if events are currently unfolding.
Goody.

Again, fitting for the genre, through I'd make it that it happened over thousands of years. A gradual chill of the world might have affected their farming so badly they had to leave before things went full Hoth. And yeah, that makes sense. Why hope for the perfect planet when you can MAKE it?
Yeah, what I meant is accelerated on a stellar scale; normally, it takes billions of years for a star to burn out and go cold, this one went down in several tens of thousands of years.

They could just worship the exo-demons in such a way that they respect their exo-demons and view them as a part of their world ships (another reason planets are dumb). They don't think these spirits are all-powerful, but seek harmony with such helpful spirits that have been their allies for untold generations. They could be machine elementals, even.
Ooh, very interesting! An awesome bit of flavor for a race where things like "intelligent +1 armor" are normal.

Also, maybe Scavvers should have some resistance to cold or be adapted to cold environments? The former can be useful and the latter could just be a fun RP thing for Hoth adventures.
If they're frost-world refugees, then yeah, it makes sense they're naturally resistant to the cold.

Heck, when I first envisioned them as more quarian expies, I was thinking of giving them some sort of toughness-related racial traits, representing a cultural doctrine of getting arcanotech implants that grant hazard resistance - detoxing blood, protection from vacuum exposure, stuff like that.

I never thought I'd say this as a reason for bigger ta-tas that does make sense. But what prevents a non-pregnant Aelfar from increasing her bust size to appear pregnant? Or add on some extra boobs? (Bow before me, for I have triplets!)
Technically, nothing - or, we could make it that the crafting techniques for such means that they need existing pregnancy-triggered hormones to work their magic. But, even if they can get themselves boosted like that, they still have to prove they ARE Mothers by showing off the offspring they've supposedly birthed, or just being tested to see if they have given birth - aelfar do have arcane gizmos that can check that kind of thing. Plus, of course, claiming Motherhood under false pretexts is a serious crime...

Actually, how would Aelfar feel about multiple births?
Quite respectable. They wouldn't normally go to the extent of breeding like rabbits - you might get the occasional Mother who tries to go for Octomom or bigger litters, but she's a lone freak doing so for her own kinkiness rather than anything near the norm - but, having the drive and tenacity to go through an even more arduous pregnancy than normal does give a sort of street cred.

Think of it as being... tasteful posturing. You want to show off what you've got, and the more you got, the more respectable you have, but if you go overboard into ostentation, you look like a fool and lose respect. Theoretically, an aelfar could use flesh-crafting to carry a dozens-strong litter to term, producing something like a hundred kids in a go... but her peers would think that she's out of her mind, and shun her as a show-off, a fool, a try-hard and a poser. You follow me?

That also makes sense. Through our attraction to them is a result of them being a signal of fertility and possibly a signal that a potential mate has sufficient body fat for reproduction. Also, there have been many time periods where bigger wasn't always better. I would imagine that SOME restraint should be shown here, else they're going to look like telephone poles with beachballs tacked on...And I doubt anyone could take that seriously.
Yeah; as with the breeding thing, it's the balance between "respectable showing off" and "ostentatious poser"; not even all Mothers do up their breast size, and even those that do normally keep it just more prominent - like, if the norm for Aelfars is B-cups, then Mothers normally average D-cup to DD-cup. Huge breasts and multiple breasts can be worn as a status thing, but too large or too many, and they just end up looking silly, which is a bad thing in the Byzantine-style competitive social structure of the Aelfar.

Again, I sorta like the idea of them having differences to highlight their origin on different planets. Would also mean their ships are naturally dark. Also mean that the Kixians aren't bothered by their ships at all, which is a nice touch.
True enough.

Before I touch the Kixians, however, how would their arm-blades interact with the monk class? I don't think there is a consensus on how it is supposed to work.
My default assumption is "use the better damage value". So, a low-level Kixian Monk does more damage with Martial Arts than another race's Monk, but they don't maintain that headlong position.

Honest Tiefling

2017-06-20, 09:45 PM

Per the rules I referenced, you can't use an off-hand weapon unless it has the Light weapon property. So, you could tail-fight with a dagger or a sickle, but not a greatsword. Though you have a point that more explicitly stating "one-handed weapons only" works better to ensure no munchkin will try and abuse their poor DM.

Issue is, if the Scavver is only using one weapon, those rules wouldn't apply. And yes, someone will try to wield a flame thrower with their butt.

Those are good ideas, to have the tail be useful for picking pockets and reloading, but I'm just not sure how to handle the crunchy side of writing that up. Any suggestions?

If there are guns, I really doubt this class is oriented to melee classes. With only +1 dex, it isn't even a superb rogue class. It could be added as a racial bonus, especially if their expertise is nerfed to a single skill. I'd put a weight limit on how much it could steal, because I think a tail sneaking out and stealing a greatsword might be a bit much.

Ah, I see! Yeah, sorcery in this setting is a case of just natural racial ability, not so much extraplanar influence. Still occasionally interspecies cannoodling, but more along the lines of "great-great-grandma was an elf, so I'm an Enchanter".

Yeah, given the Aelfar, that does make sense.

Yeah, what I meant is accelerated on a stellar scale; normally, it takes billions of years for a star to burn out and go cold, this one went down in several tens of thousands of years.

Ah. My bad. Given things like the history of Kyrpton and Wrath of Kahn, I did think you meant the world got screwed over quickly.

Ooh, very interesting! An awesome bit of flavor for a race where things like "intelligent +1 armor" are normal.

I imagine being naked around items that will comment on you getting fat might lead to some issues, yeah. "Oh, it's not THAT cold in here, is it? Is this why you never bring a date back home?"

Heck, when I first envisioned them as more quarian expies, I was thinking of giving them some sort of toughness-related racial traits, representing a cultural doctrine of getting arcanotech implants that grant hazard resistance - detoxing blood, protection from vacuum exposure, stuff like that.

An idea I had was that one of these races (either them or the Aelfar) would be like the Dragonborn in that they didn't have proper subraces, but a choice of a single feature from a list to represent additions or enhancements.

Technically, nothing - or, we could make it that the crafting techniques for such means that they need existing pregnancy-triggered hormones to work their magic. But, even if they can get themselves boosted like that, they still have to prove they ARE Mothers by showing off the offspring they've supposedly birthed, or just being tested to see if they have given birth - aelfar do have arcane gizmos that can check that kind of thing. Plus, of course, claiming Motherhood under false pretexts is a serious crime...

Potentially triggering territory, but...What about stillbirths? That might really upset some players (since many would be facing fertility issues or know those who do), but...Should it be addressed?

Quite respectable. They wouldn't normally go to the extent of breeding like rabbits - you might get the occasional Mother who tries to go for Octomom or bigger litters, but she's a lone freak doing so for her own kinkiness rather than anything near the norm - but, having the drive and tenacity to go through an even more arduous pregnancy than normal does give a sort of street cred.

Would that mean that higher ranking Aelfar are twins? Twins for humans can lead to some complications, but I assume the Aelfar fixed that issue already. Through what would they think of a genetic chimera?

Think of it as being... tasteful posturing. You want to show off what you've got, and the more you got, the more respectable you have, but if you go overboard into ostentation, you look like a fool and lose respect. Theoretically, an aelfar could use flesh-crafting to carry a dozens-strong litter to term, producing something like a hundred kids in a go... but her peers would think that she's out of her mind, and shun her as a show-off, a fool, a try-hard and a poser. You follow me?

I imagine there would be outright laws against this. For humans, breast milk and colostrum are very important, so even if she had a small army of nannies there could be problems. Since they are immortal and you probably don't want too many of them, perhaps they want quality over quantity.

Yeah; as with the breeding thing, it's the balance between "respectable showing off" and "ostentatious poser"; not even all Mothers do up their breast size, and even those that do normally keep it just more prominent - like, if the norm for Aelfars is B-cups, then Mothers normally average D-cup to DD-cup. Huge breasts and multiple breasts can be worn as a status thing, but too large or too many, and they just end up looking silly, which is a bad thing in the Byzantine-style competitive social structure of the Aelfar.

...D and DD in my opinion might be high, given how the beachball and telephone look has some...Connotations. However, those aren't really exact measurements (as I learned from a female friend complaining about shopping and putting a bra on my head). Since adding additional weight in the front would lead to back problems, maybe they have a emphasis on grace to additionally discourage that?

My default assumption is "use the better damage value". So, a low-level Kixian Monk does more damage with Martial Arts than another race's Monk, but they don't maintain that headlong position.

What about using those arm-blades to deal slashing damage? I think that could be an interesting feature to encourage Kixian monks, but probably not stupidly overpowered.

What level is this setting meant for?

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-20, 10:35 PM

Issue is, if the Scavver is only using one weapon, those rules wouldn't apply. And yes, someone will try to wield a flame thrower with their butt.
...I think we have a misunderstanding. What I'm saying is, the ONLY kind of weapon a scavver can use with its tail is a one-handed Light weapon. You could maybe use a pistol with it, I don't know that might be too silly, but definitely you can't use it for something two-handed.

If there are guns, I really doubt this class is oriented to melee classes. With only +1 dex, it isn't even a superb rogue class. It could be added as a racial bonus, especially if their expertise is nerfed to a single skill. I'd put a weight limit on how much it could steal, because I think a tail sneaking out and stealing a greatsword might be a bit much.
Thing is, doesn't the fact that they count as Small already impair things like that? I don't know, maybe I should try rewriting the tail-related traits?

Ah. My bad. Given things like the history of Kyrpton and Wrath of Kahn, I did think you meant the world got screwed over quickly.
YEah, I mean centuries of visible decline to prepare, accept, and make arrangements to escape. Not "boom, it comes out of nowhere and nobody realized it".

I imagine being naked around items that will comment on you getting fat might lead to some issues, yeah. "Oh, it's not THAT cold in here, is it? Is this why you never bring a date back home?"
...I have a sudden inkling that, although technically a very religious people, scavvers may come off as rather irreverent to other races...

An idea I had was that one of these races (either them or the Aelfar) would be like the Dragonborn in that they didn't have proper subraces, but a choice of a single feature from a list to represent additions or enhancements.
Hmm... yes, that could work, quite well in fact.

Potentially triggering territory, but...What about stillbirths? That might really upset some players (since many would be facing fertility issues or know those who do), but...Should it be addressed?
Addressed... where? Here on the forum? In the official setting book? Because I honestly wasn't thinking about it in any more detail beyond it happens, if very rarely, and it's seen as a sad event; the aspirant Mother is still awarded her rank, but she will probably be something of an object of pity amongst her kin until she has had a living child.

Would that mean that higher ranking Aelfar are twins? Twins for humans can lead to some complications, but I assume the Aelfar fixed that issue already. Through what would they think of a genetic chimera?
Twins are probably a higher percentage of the population amongst aelfar than amongst humans, being born doesn't exactly give you rank by default.

I don't know what you mean about a genetic chimera in this sense, though.

I imagine there would be outright laws against this. For humans, breast milk and colostrum are very important, so even if she had a small army of nannies there could be problems. Since they are immortal and you probably don't want too many of them, perhaps they want quality over quantity.
They would definitely value quality over quantity. As I said, "hyper-pregnancy" would be an act of decadence and deviance; not strictly illegal, except perhaps at certain impossible sizes, but something that would make other clan-mothers turn up their noses. Anything over triplets is very rare. Anything involving double digits is all but unheard of, and is essentially social suicide; it marks a Mother as either very powerful, very desperate, or very mad.

Also, don't forget the bio-tech angle here; theoretically, an aelfar matriarch could have dozens of human slaves modified to pump out milk with cow-plus level productivity.

...D and DD in my opinion might be high, given how the beachball and telephone look has some...Connotations. However, those aren't really exact measurements (as I learned from a female friend complaining about shopping and putting a bra on my head). Since adding additional weight in the front would lead to back problems, maybe they have a emphasis on grace to additionally discourage that?
Definitely agree with the focus on grace. What I'm trying to say is that Mothers do tend to favor a more voluptuous build, but even so, not to the extent of some big breast fetish hentai pin-up.

What about using those arm-blades to deal slashing damage? I think that could be an interesting feature to encourage Kixian monks, but probably not stupidly overpowered.
I don't follow what you mean here? I'm saying that kixian monks do inflict slashing damage with their martial arts, but they don't reach higher dice than other non-monks do.

What level is this setting meant for?
It should be an all-levels available setting, just like Spelljammer. You can start out as a farm-boy with ambitions in the nearest space port and make your way up to world-conquering/liberating superhero.

Honest Tiefling

2017-06-20, 10:56 PM

...I think we have a misunderstanding. What I'm saying is, the ONLY kind of weapon a scavver can use with its tail is a one-handed Light weapon. You could maybe use a pistol with it, I don't know that might be too silly, but definitely you can't use it for something two-handed.

Oh, definitely agreed, just if you don't specify, someone will do it.

Thing is, doesn't the fact that they count as Small already impair things like that? I don't know, maybe I should try rewriting the tail-related traits?

Maybe. I think if it is dexterous enough to wield a dagger, you should be able be able to do other things. The race shouldn't be overpowered, but then again...How many times will wielding something in an extra hand actually come up? PCs don't usually lose limbs and most of the time both arms are perfectly functional.

...I have a sudden inkling that, although technically a very religious people, scavvers may come off as rather irreverent to other races...

For some reason I think a computer snarking at people is also fitting for this genre.

Addressed... where? Here on the forum? In the official setting book? Because I honestly wasn't thinking about it in any more detail beyond it happens, if very rarely, and it's seen as a sad event; the aspirant Mother is still awarded her rank, but she will probably be something of an object of pity amongst her kin until she has had a living child.

Well, wherever you are writing this down. And that works well. They aren't supposed to be nice people.

I don't know what you mean about a genetic chimera in this sense, though.

The phemenon of a person having two different genomes as a result of arising from different genomes.

They would definitely value quality over quantity. As I said, "hyper-pregnancy" would be an act of decadence and deviance; not strictly illegal, except perhaps at certain impossible sizes, but something that would make other clan-mothers turn up their noses. Anything over triplets is very rare. Anything involving double digits is all but unheard of, and is essentially social suicide; it marks a Mother as either very powerful, very desperate, or very mad.

Instead of crazy cat ladies, this culture has crazy baby ladies.

Also, don't forget the bio-tech angle here; theoretically, an aelfar matriarch could have dozens of human slaves modified to pump out milk with cow-plus level productivity.

True, that's a good point and

Definitely agree with the focus on grace. What I'm trying to say is that Mothers do tend to favor a more voluptuous build, but even so, not to the extent of some big breast fetish hentai pin-up.

Thank goodness. Through do you mean a voluptous build, or a relatively voluptious build? Also, how long are these people pregnant for?

I don't follow what you mean here? I'm saying that kixian monks do inflict slashing damage with their martial arts, but they don't reach higher dice than other non-monks do.

That they can decide which type of damage they do, depending on the limbs chosen. Having a racial trait that becomes useless after a few levels (since even the unarmed attacks for non-monks will become an inferior option) would be quite a bummer. Especially for a setting with potentially higher level characters!

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-20, 11:12 PM

Oh, definitely agreed, just if you don't specify, someone will do it.
True enough.

Maybe. I think if it is dexterous enough to wield a dagger, you should be able be able to do other things. The race shouldn't be overpowered, but then again...How many times will wielding something in an extra hand actually come up? PCs don't usually lose limbs and most of the time both arms are perfectly functional.
Alright, I'll post up a rewritten version of Prehensile Tail and maybe a first draft of "Arcanotech Implants" when I can.

For some reason I think a computer snarking at people is also fitting for this genre.
Heh, yeah, pretty much.

The phemenon of a person having two different genomes as a result of arising from different genomes.
I think I understand. Honestly, they wouldn't bat an eye at it; with aelfar reproductive tech being what it is, aelfars with three or more biological parents (admittedly these are often, but not always, politically motivated in their conception) and aelfars with two biologically female parents are no weirder than those born to the standard male/female pairing.

Instead of crazy cat ladies, this culture has crazy baby ladies.
Yeah, pretty much. Aelfar are definitely not your standard dying elf race.

Thank goodness. Through do you mean a voluptous build, or a relatively voluptious build? Also, how long are these people pregnant for?
I mean relatively voluptuous. An aelfar matriarch could give herself literally breasts the size of watermelons and buttocks the size of Japanese cooking pumpkins, but she would not, because that'd be obscenely ostentatious by the standards of her people.

That they can decide which type of damage they do, depending on the limbs chosen. Having a racial trait that becomes useless after a few levels (since even the unarmed attacks for non-monks will become an inferior option) would be quite a bummer. Especially for a setting with potentially higher level characters!
What I'm saying is that a Kixian monk has two choices for their Unarmed Strikes: Bludgeoning Damage or Slashing Damage.

Bludgeoning Damage Unarmed Strikes use their Martial Arts damage dice.

Slashing Damage Unarmed Strikes use the higher of their racial damage dice or the Martial Arts damage dice. So a 1st level Traditionalist kixian monk can do 1d8 slashing damage, but a 20th level one does 1d10 slashing damage that counts as magic for piercing damage reduction.

Max_Killjoy

2017-06-21, 01:04 PM

Actually they're called Whiptail Lizards and I've made a race based on them with all the societal, cultural economic, medical and political problems that would result from such reproduction, just being logical about how it would work and what would turn from the biology. Turns out they wouldn't be as genetically diverse as us, so they'd have to constantly reproduce for quantity rather than quality, constantly keep themselves clean to even more insane degree than us to prevent disease, they'd believe since all offspring are basically genetic clones of their parents that they have the same exact same capabilities and thus the children would inherit the jobs of the parent rightly or wrongly. Of course this constant reproduction leads to the elites of the society viewing the commoners as expendable and overpopulating their planet and thus constantly sending them out to establish colonies or to wage war on other species, the elites themselves would basically be nobles who compete with and probably kill each other to inherit their parents title, or extra elites would be sent out to lead the extra commoners to conquer somewhere else, and die in expendable droves.

So a lesbian lizard alien civilization would in fact be a dystopian oppressive society with an economy based on constant war and being even more obsessed with right of inheritance than any house in Westeros given all the offspring are genetic clones, and have resource problems given that they'd have to evolve from a desert-like planet. the exact opposite of a peaceful free love society of diplomacy. funny that.

Now suddenly drop the wildcard element of germline and/or inheritable genetic engineering into that culture. Boom. :smallbiggrin:

(Can be an independent breakthrough, or something that happened soon after first contact with "aliens"...)

Wouldn't that make things worse, since a low level of contact with disease and other 'dirt' is needed for human immune systems to be healthy? Not to mention they could accidentally breed several strains of super-microbes that are effectively immune to chemical means of disinfection. Or do their immune systems work differently?

Unless I've missed something, "superbugs" don't evolve immunity to brute-force chemical disinfection. Bleaches, strong soaps, etc, will kill just about any microbe, for the same reasons they'll kill us (or make us sick) if ingested or absorbed. The trick in antibiotics, etc, is finding compounds that kill the infectious microbes without killing the patient, and that fine line is the space into which microbes evolve resistance.

If everyone in a line of descent has the same exact genome, then they all share the same vulnerabilities to the same microbes. If there's no mixing of genetic makeup in the host/target organisms, and thus no variations in their immune makeup, the microbial line only ever has to adapt to attack that one target, and entire families are vulnerable.

So keeping disease-causing microbes suppressed outside the body becomes far more important.

(There's no reason why an alien immune system would need "dirt" to learn to function, not all real-world Earth immune systems work that way.)

Honest Tiefling

2017-06-21, 01:05 PM

Alright, I'll post up a rewritten version of Prehensile Tail and maybe a first draft of "Arcanotech Implants" when I can.

It'd be much appreciated. Would the implants be racially restricted? I think that is eaiser and could be explained that they are limited geographically and few races would put an implant into a member of another race. And due to that aversion, putting an implant into a another race could have some side effects...

I think I understand. Honestly, they wouldn't bat an eye at it; with aelfar reproductive tech being what it is, aelfars with three or more biological parents (admittedly these are often, but not always, politically motivated in their conception) and aelfars with two biologically female parents are no weirder than those born to the standard male/female pairing.

After thinking about this, you might want to have some crossbreeding rules. I could recount things people have done, but I don't want to start whinging here when we have a goal! But yes, people do weird stuff with cross-breeding. So I have to ask, how common would crossbreeds be, and what crossbreeds could exist? What would be the rules of such?

Yeah, pretty much. Aelfar are definitely not your standard dying elf race.

Admittedly, I was never a fan of this troupe because if it is handled badly, you make your elves into Giant Pandas who refuse to bonk one another.

I mean relatively voluptuous. An aelfar matriarch could give herself literally breasts the size of watermelons and buttocks the size of Japanese cooking pumpkins, but she would not, because that'd be obscenely ostentatious by the standards of her people.

...."Oh. My. God. Becky, look at her butt!"

Sorry, I had to.

What I'm saying is that a Kixian monk has two choices for their Unarmed Strikes: Bludgeoning Damage or Slashing Damage.

Bludgeoning Damage Unarmed Strikes use their Martial Arts damage dice.

Slashing Damage Unarmed Strikes use the higher of their racial damage dice or the Martial Arts damage dice. So a 1st level Traditionalist kixian monk can do 1d8 slashing damage, but a 20th level one does 1d10 slashing damage that counts as magic for piercing damage reduction.

Okay. I think I got confused. I like this feature, because it effectively scales with their level and is a feature that is useful throughout their career. I would also reword the racial ability to make it clear this is how it is intended, as it would affect how the race should be balanced.

Through how are the World Ships and other ships of the Scavvers ruled? The Quarians had a militaristic structure, but if the Scavvers are perfectly happy with their awesome world ship and have tons of resources, that doesn't make sense.

I'd also be interested in what sorts of art froms are present. And before you say that's not a part of adventuring, you need art in a campaign setting to make it seem more alive and to have awesome things to steal.

Max_Killjoy

2017-06-21, 01:26 PM

Max_Killjoy

2017-06-21, 01:32 PM

I'm always a big fan of 'plant people' as well... maybe a species who spends their adult life as a 'magical tree' but their seeds are humanoids and travel extensively to find places to 'root' (which is based on magic stuff like galactic leylines and the like). This could be your 'ancient mysterious race'; with trees found in many worlds seemingly predating space travel of most races. Maybe central figures in Druidism?

What if they're very very long-lived, and spend part of their life in a fairly human-sized bipedal form, but have to find one of these "places of power" to put down roots from time to time to recharge, or when they want to reproduce?

Max_Killjoy

2017-06-21, 02:24 PM

I would just present the Aelfar as is. Yeah, not the most politically correct, but I don't really see a culture of flesh shapers embracing motherhood with long lives without tons of people deciding to try different bits out. The nudity also makes sense. If you are into writing fiction, I'd suggest writing about Naked Grandpa. Nothing says 'Guys, nudity doesn't ogling hot women, other people are naked and you aren't supposed to be doing that' like reminding people that if nudity is the norm, Grandpa's nekkie too.

Sometimes artfully presented minimal clothing is more flattering to the form than outright nudity, and it sounds like the point is exhibition of excellence, rather than titillation, so perhaps that's another way of handling that aspect.

As for gender and sexuality, they way these people have been described, I can see them regarding physical gender as no more important or core to identity than shirt color or whatever is to most of us.

I do wonder... it sounds like they have artificial wombs and other means of reproduction -- why actually giving birth "the old way" still so important to them?

Honest Tiefling

2017-06-21, 03:00 PM

What if they're very very long-lived, and spend part of their life in a fairly human-sized bipedal form, but have to find one of these "places of power" to put down roots from time to time to recharge, or when they want to reproduce?

I think Max Killjoy has a lot of good ideas, but since it isn't my setting, I didn't know how to respond. But this idea, I love and feel the need to address. If becoming Rooted is the only way to reproduce, it could lead to a sad event where the Lotusian has to say goodbye to every person they have met that isn't one of their kind. Given their tendency to be diplomats and explorers, it would stand to reason that many Lotusians enjoy the presence of other species. But if they are to continue their existence, they must sacrifice their relationships with these people. Sure, they could talk through others, but they'll know it just isn't the same, and not everyone could drop things on the frontier to go back to go scuba diving on the Lotusian worlds.

Furthermore, these rooted Lotusians would also be unable to explore. After years, possibly centuries of exploring, adventure and meeting new and exciting people, they're now...Done. Never again to experience that. The lake they are in is their world now and they might grow resentful of the younger Lotusians they have birthed because they are free. They don't know what it is like to never be able to travel or to speak to their friends again. They just can't understand that sacrifice.

Now, in some ways, this tragedy should be explored. However, given that everyone else is running around with potentially created machine spirits and escaped a dying world or are masters of flesh crafting, it seems weird that the Lotusians never fixed this issue. I would find it interesting if the Lotusians did once exist in this fashion, where once rooted you could never go back. The despair and rage they experienced could have been the event that led to the creation of the Snapperjaws, especially if younger Lotusians wanted to experience freedom and didn't always obey the Rooted ones utterly.

I just spent centuries knowing that everyone I had met in my youth had died and I had no way to prevent their suffering or even be there for them. Their friends and family died for me and I could not even know their fate. I was trapped within my own body. My own descendants could not understand, and they ignored my pleas to help those people. Now I will uproot myself and make others feel as I once did. You will know what it is like to have your freedom, your identity and your body changed. You will know pain as I have felt pain, and if I cannot make you feel as I did, you will feel pain in any way I can.

Changing the Lotusians so they could once again experience freedom could have also occurred due to a favor from another race, such as the Aurian Empire, Aelfar or the Kixians. There are a lot of ways it could go, but the idea that the Lotusians have a myriad of opinions on the matter could make for some interesting roleplay.

Max_Killjoy

2017-06-21, 03:23 PM

I think Max Killjoy has a lot of good ideas, but since it isn't my setting, I didn't know how to respond. But this idea, I love and feel the need to address. If becoming Rooted is the only way to reproduce, it could lead to a sad event where the Lotusian has to say goodbye to every person they have met that isn't one of their kind. Given their tendency to be diplomats and explorers, it would stand to reason that many Lotusians enjoy the presence of other species. But if they are to continue their existence, they must sacrifice their relationships with these people. Sure, they could talk through others, but they'll know it just isn't the same, and not everyone could drop things on the frontier to go back to go scuba diving on the Lotusian worlds.

Furthermore, these rooted Lotusians would also be unable to explore. After years, possibly centuries of exploring, adventure and meeting new and exciting people, they're now...Done. Never again to experience that. The lake they are in is their world now and they might grow resentful of the younger Lotusians they have birthed because they are free. They don't know what it is like to never be able to travel or to speak to their friends again. They just can't understand that sacrifice.

Now, in some ways, this tragedy should be explored. However, given that everyone else is running around with potentially created machine spirits and escaped a dying world or are masters of flesh crafting, it seems weird that the Lotusians never fixed this issue. I would find it interesting if the Lotusians did once exist in this fashion, where once rooted you could never go back. The despair and rage they experienced could have been the event that led to the creation of the Snapperjaws, especially if younger Lotusians wanted to experience freedom and didn't always obey the Rooted ones utterly.

I just spent centuries knowing that everyone I had met in my youth had died and I had no way to prevent their suffering or even be there for them. Their friends and family died for me and I could not even know their fate. I was trapped within my own body. My own descendants could not understand, and they ignored my pleas to help those people. Now I will uproot myself and make others feel as I once did. You will know what it is like to have your freedom, your identity and your body changed. You will know pain as I have felt pain, and if I cannot make you feel as I did, you will feel pain in any way I can.

Changing the Lotusians so they could once again experience freedom could have also occurred due to a favor from another race, such as the Aurian Empire, Aelfar or the Kixians. There are a lot of ways it could go, but the idea that the Lotusians have a myriad of opinions on the matter could make for some interesting roleplay.

Even if they don't have to put down roots forever, just for say 50 years to reproduce, and then they get to go out and wander again*... it still would mean they'd need to leave everyone they know behind, and the world "out there' would change and move without them, for that 50 years.

* maybe they need the energy from the "place of power" to reproduce, but not otherwise, in a less parasite-ish way similar to how mosquitoes only need blood to reproduce.

E: I'm trying to get through the thread in detail, it's hard to read some of the mega-posts on my work laptop and follow the conversation. :smallbiggrin: So if I repeat something someone's said or seem to have ignored where the conversation has already gone, it's not intentional.

Honest Tiefling

2017-06-21, 03:31 PM

Even if they don't have to put down roots forever, just for say 50 years to reproduce, and then they get to go out and wander again*... it still would mean they'd need to leave everyone they know behind, and the world "out there' would change and move without them, for that 50 years.

Very true! So either version would work if the idea I presented is used.

* maybe they need the energy from the "place of power" to reproduce, but not otherwise, in a less parasite-ish way similar to how mosquitoes only need blood to reproduce.

Could be a 'place of power' (80's space fantasy after all), or it could just be the right conditions. Planets vary, and you probably don't want to have your baby in the equivalent of Death Valley. The water needs to be just right and plenty of carbon dioxide and oxygen for the widdle seedlings as well as plenty on-hand nutrients. If they have some sort of restriction or issue reproducing, that might influence them to think that each individual is precious, and life is not a gift to be wasted. That might help explain why they are so diplomatic, as they have see the struggle to make sure their young are taken care of, and know the bonds of family aren't unique to them. Heck, it could be a past issue that was solved but still heavily resonates in their culture.

Perhaps a 'place of power' isn't so much required, as heavily desired? Perhaps being Rooted in a place of power means they get better offspring and they want their offspring to have every chance they can get. They wouldn't be very expansionist, as they could only settle a handful of worlds. More worlds wouldn't really benefit them the same way, so why bother?

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-21, 03:38 PM

It'd be much appreciated. Would the implants be racially restricted? I think that is eaiser and could be explained that they are limited geographically and few races would put an implant into a member of another race. And due to that aversion, putting an implant into a another race could have some side effects...
What I'm essentially thinking with Arcano-Implant is that it's a racial feature; basically, every scavver gets modded at some point in their youth, either as a coming of age ritual or just a nececessity to deal with injury or whatever. These implants can't be exactly duplicated by other races; they're tailored for scavver biology.

That's not to say that arcanotech implants are unavailable to all species, but these would be treated as a kind of magic item.

After thinking about this, you might want to have some crossbreeding rules. I could recount things people have done, but I don't want to start whinging here when we have a goal! But yes, people do weird stuff with cross-breeding. So I have to ask, how common would crossbreeds be, and what crossbreeds could exist? What would be the rules of such?
Just in knee-jerk reaction, crossbreeds are semi-common; they're not going to replace purebreeds by a long shot, but they're hardly unheard of.

As for the rules... this is a shorthand, I can go into more detail when I've had time to think.

Humans can interbreed with anything. Literally, anything. However, except with some compatible species, most reproduction results in either-or offspring. If a kixian hooks up with a human and she lays her egg, she will get what are, functionally, either a pure kixian (although probably one step closer to the Integrator format) or a pure human.

Aelfar are definitely more inter-compatible than is normal, though not to the same extent as humans. They do have better access to flesh-crafting (see below) and they do tend to have a better chance of providing hybrids.

Lotusians and Snapperjaws normally can't crossbreed with anything - but that may change as we rework them. Although humans may be able to do it, since that's one of humanity's "hats".

Vanadirans can be impregnated by most species, although 90% of such pregnancies produce female vanadirans with minor traits (coloration, personality, etc) inherited from the father, and the remaining 10% produce either male or female offspring of the father's race.

Other races are a more case-by-case basis; fertile with some, infertile with most.

Flesh-crafting can be used to overcome reproductive difficulties. The simplest option is to take material from both parents and combine it to create a working hybrid in a uterine replicator. Far more complex is a long regime of what amounts to geno-therapy, permanently (unless they get themselves changed back deliberately, of course) rendering them interfertile only with each other.

Admittedly, I was never a fan of this troupe because if it is handled badly, you make your elves into Giant Pandas who refuse to bonk one another.
True enough.

Okay. I think I got confused. I like this feature, because it effectively scales with their level and is a feature that is useful throughout their career. I would also reword the racial ability to make it clear this is how it is intended, as it would affect how the race should be balanced.
Yeah, sure, that makes sense. And no worries on the confusion.

Through how are the World Ships and other ships of the Scavvers ruled? The Quarians had a militaristic structure, but if the Scavvers are perfectly happy with their awesome world ship and have tons of resources, that doesn't make sense.
Hmm... perhaps a council of either clan-elders or senior technomancers? Basically, the people who have the training to keep the World Ships running and growing are the ones in charge?

I'd also be interested in what sorts of art forms are present. And before you say that's not a part of adventuring, you need art in a campaign setting to make it seem more alive and to have awesome things to steal.
Agreed. Not an artistic person myself, but I'll put some thought into this.

Since this is space fantasy, and features actual technomancy, I'd suggest as an alternative that the "artificial intelligences" are actually artificial spirits -- spirits created from scratch to fulfill a specific purpose in a machine or system.

The spirits of the dead, however, might be kept in icons... either kept in family homes as a techno-version of ancestor shrines, or gathered in great Wisdom Vaults where some past expert or sage could be summoned up to share their knowledge.
That's... essentially what I was going for. "Tech-spirits" are akin to familiars; they're mindless, formless entities formed from raw magical energy, given consciousness through rituals and the influence of the physical shell they are bound into.

E: Putting an artificial spirit in a living body would be considered taboo, perhaps. As would putting a "natural" spirit in a machine.

E2: This makes me think of a plot seed with a rogue faction of flesh-shapers getting together with a rogue faction of scavvers to create an artificial body and inhabit it with an artificial spirit.
Nice idea, I agree with this wholeheartedly.

What if they're very very long-lived, and spend part of their life in a fairly human-sized bipedal form, but have to find one of these "places of power" to put down roots from time to time to recharge, or when they want to reproduce?
Hmm, having to use the leylines to reproduce makes sense; it further adds to why they're a rare race and explains their interest in cultivating the ley-lines.

Sometimes artfully presented minimal clothing is more flattering to the form than outright nudity, and it sounds like the point is exhibition of excellence, rather than titillation, so perhaps that's another way of handling that aspect.

As for gender and sexuality, they way these people have been described, I can see them regarding physical gender as no more important or core to identity than shirt color or whatever is to most of us.

I do wonder... it sounds like they have artificial wombs and other means of reproduction -- why is actually giving birth "the old way" still so important to them?
Firstly, that's exactly what I had in mind; it's not bout being nude, it's about artful presentation and minimalism - to the aelfar, that's even more tantalizing than actually just showing everything off.

Secondly, that is exactly right.

For your final comment, at this point, it's tradition. They didn't start out being able to do all this stuff with life-shaping, they just developed it before their original homeworld went kablooie. They've never really forgotten their roots - with their extended lifespans and abilities at cheating death, like most elves, they're socially rather conservative. It's just their culture doesn't mesh up at all with what we humans think of as conservative.

I think Max Killjoy has a lot of good ideas, but since it isn't my setting, I didn't know how to respond. But this idea, I love and feel the need to address. If becoming Rooted is the only way to reproduce, it could lead to a sad event where the Lotusian has to say goodbye to every person they have met that isn't one of their kind. Given their tendency to be diplomats and explorers, it would stand to reason that many Lotusians enjoy the presence of other species. But if they are to continue their existence, they must sacrifice their relationships with these people. Sure, they could talk through others, but they'll know it just isn't the same, and not everyone could drop things on the frontier to go back to go scuba diving on the Lotusian worlds.

Furthermore, these rooted Lotusians would also be unable to explore. After years, possibly centuries of exploring, adventure and meeting new and exciting people, they're now...Done. Never again to experience that. The lake they are in is their world now and they might grow resentful of the younger Lotusians they have birthed because they are free. They don't know what it is like to never be able to travel or to speak to their friends again. They just can't understand that sacrifice.

Now, in some ways, this tragedy should be explored. However, given that everyone else is running around with potentially created machine spirits and escaped a dying world or are masters of flesh crafting, it seems weird that the Lotusians never fixed this issue. I would find it interesting if the Lotusians did once exist in this fashion, where once rooted you could never go back. The despair and rage they experienced could have been the event that led to the creation of the Snapperjaws, especially if younger Lotusians wanted to experience freedom and didn't always obey the Rooted ones utterly.

I just spent centuries knowing that everyone I had met in my youth had died and I had no way to prevent their suffering or even be there for them. Their friends and family died for me and I could not even know their fate. I was trapped within my own body. My own descendants could not understand, and they ignored my pleas to help those people. Now I will uproot myself and make others feel as I once did. You will know what it is like to have your freedom, your identity and your body changed. You will know pain as I have felt pain, and if I cannot make you feel as I did, you will feel pain in any way I can.

Changing the Lotusians so they could once again experience freedom could have also occurred due to a favor from another race, such as the Aurian Empire, Aelfar or the Kixians. There are a lot of ways it could go, but the idea that the Lotusians have a myriad of opinions on the matter could make for some interesting roleplay.
Agree so much; some very good ideas.

And in fact, that's an excellent idea for exploring both the Lotusians and the Snapperjaws. Hells, making it that "Seedbearers" are no longer required to be stationary, even if they do still end up turning into the treants to the "Saplings'" wilden, could even be why the lotusians are experiencing a resurgence.

...You guys keep moving faster than I can keep up with, so I'll end this here, but I just want to say that your input is most valuable, Max_Killjoy, and I'm happy to welcome you to the team, if that's what you're interested in.

Max_Killjoy

2017-06-21, 03:45 PM

I mean relatively voluptuous. An aelfar matriarch could give herself literally breasts the size of watermelons and buttocks the size of Japanese cooking pumpkins, but she would not, because that'd be obscenely ostentatious by the standards of her people.

I suspect one of them doing that might hear stage whispers of "How gauche! Really." behind their back.

My impression so far is that there's an aspect of "art form" to how they view flesh-shaping, and the trick wouldn't be "as big as possible", but "exactly big enough, just the right curve, just the right etc". There might even be competing artistic traditions, and "languages" of art that are meant to convey certain signals and messages.

E: the idea of all these hidden messages, layers within layers, subtle signals that other cultures just don't have the refinement to understand... I think it fits in with the idea of the aelfar as an ancient, conservative, intricate culture. Think of some of the imperial courts of our past, where the fabric, cut, and color of one's garments was sending precise signals that those who grew up in the court could receive intuitively, but those from outside were clueless about... ( "The loutish boars. Really. No one of their station should be wearing green..." )

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-21, 03:49 PM

I suspect one of them doing that might hear stage whispers of "How gauche! Really." behind their back.

My impression so far is that there's an aspect of "art form" to how they view flesh-shaping, and the trick wouldn't be "as big as possible", but "exactly big enough, just the right curve, just the right etc". There might even be competing artistic traditions, and "languages" of art that are meant to convey certain signals and messages.
Very much so.

And, indeed, that's definitely key to the race; it's not just about power, it's about art. They are masters of life and death, flesh and bone, blood and sinew... but, power wielded clumsily is wasted and vulgar. To display strength with precision and control, that is the measure of a true superior being.

Honest Tiefling

2017-06-21, 03:51 PM

My impression so far is that there's an aspect of "art form" to how they view flesh-shaping, and the trick wouldn't be "as big as possible", but "exactly big enough, just the right curve, just the right etc". There might even be competing artistic traditions, and "languages" of art that are meant to convey certain signals and messages.

...So in this setting, it would be perfectly valid for Aelfar to discuss over dinner what is the ideal balance between aesthetics and function for boobs. And of course, a good chunk of the guests would be technically discussing their own man-boobs if they felt like being male that century.

I really shouldn't be so amused by this, especially since this is supposed to be a serious setting, but I'm still amused by it.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-21, 03:55 PM

Max_Killjoy

2017-06-21, 03:57 PM

...You guys keep moving faster than I can keep up with, so I'll end this here, but I just want to say that your input is most valuable, Max_Killjoy, and I'm happy to welcome you to the team, if that's what you're interested in.

I'm scratching my worldbuilding and brainstorming itch. :smallbiggrin:

It's your setting, so I'm just putting out ideas as they come to me.

(PS, see edit in my post above.)

Max_Killjoy

2017-06-21, 04:11 PM

Max_Killjoy

2017-06-21, 04:20 PM

...So in this setting, it would be perfectly valid for Aelfar to discuss over dinner what is the ideal balance between aesthetics and function for boobs. And of course, a good chunk of the guests would be technically discussing their own man-boobs if they felt like being male that century.

I really shouldn't be so amused by this, especially since this is supposed to be a serious setting, but I'm still amused by it.

Heh, well, 80s space fantasy isn't without its own share of silliness too. It doesn't have to be gloom and doom all the time.

There's always a potential for a certain sort of subtle body-horror or cross-cultural "gives me the shivers" when dealing with a culture that views skin and flesh and bone as a canvas...

(Please let's not get into the Tzimesce or the Dark Eldar, with their anything-but-subtle body horror...)

Honest Tiefling

2017-06-21, 05:26 PM

(Please let's not get into the Tzimesce or the Dark Eldar, with their anything-but-subtle body horror...)

Not familiar with either, but I think I get the gist of things. Maybe to balance out their vanity and horror elements, we should consider giving them some positive traits.

For instance, what if an Aelfar was born with a defect (that is not genetic, because I have no idea how that would ever occur with these people)? I assume that given their focus upon their own race and anything with Aelfar DNA being a member, they'd go out of their way to fix the issue.

Through, if they have such a concern for their own members, how are they a deadly decadent court? Or are children, pregnant people and those who are nursing just completely off the table for such things? Or is it a intricate court where fortunes are made based on one's cunning, intellect and grace, but they don't tend to assassinate each other very often? Or are the stakes higher as one's status goes higher, so lower ranking nobles might sabotage each other slightly, but queens and the like play a very different, deadly, game? Or the deadly part only comes in sanctioned duels?

Admittedly, not a big fan of the drow despite their fashionable coloration, since you'd think they'd be hard pressed to replenish their numbers.

Also, have these guys fixed any plagues? Maybe they have, with some claiming it was an altruistic act, while others claim it was simply for the challenge of it?

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-21, 08:09 PM

The idea of all these hidden messages, layers within layers, subtle signals that other cultures just don't have the refinement to understand... I think it fits in with the idea of the aelfar as an ancient, conservative, intricate culture. Think of some of the imperial courts of our past, where the fabric, cut, and color of one's garments was sending precise signals that those who grew up in the court could receive intuitively, but those from outside were clueless about... ( "The loutish boars. Really. No one of their station should be wearing green..." )
Indeed. That's a key part of my vision of the race.

Not familiar with either, but I think I get the gist of things. Maybe to balance out their vanity and horror elements, we should consider giving them some positive traits.

For instance, what if an Aelfar was born with a defect (that is not genetic, because I have no idea how that would ever occur with these people)? I assume that given their focus upon their own race and anything with Aelfar DNA being a member, they'd go out of their way to fix the issue.

Through, if they have such a concern for their own members, how are they a deadly decadent court? Or are children, pregnant people and those who are nursing just completely off the table for such things? Or is it a intricate court where fortunes are made based on one's cunning, intellect and grace, but they don't tend to assassinate each other very often? Or are the stakes higher as one's status goes higher, so lower ranking nobles might sabotage each other slightly, but queens and the like play a very different, deadly, game? Or the deadly part only comes in sanctioned duels?

Admittedly, not a big fan of the drow despite their fashionable coloration, since you'd think they'd be hard pressed to replenish their numbers.

Also, have these guys fixed any plagues? Maybe they have, with some claiming it was an altruistic act, while others claim it was simply for the challenge of it?
Yes, they would try to fix the defect.

Hmm... Honestly, my answer swings somewhere between your 2nd and 3rd thoughts - of the two, the third is probably closest to the truth.

Yes, most definitely.

Max_Killjoy

2017-06-21, 09:51 PM

Well... it's not as if "feminine monogender race for whom sex and reproduction are independent" is that unheard of a concept in fantasy. I can easily name two races who fit that bill - the Blind Warrior-Women of Altaria, from RIFTS, and the Asari of Mass Effect, know there was a third such race from some sci-fi game in the 90s - Star Commander, I think it was called, and I'm sure there's others.

Plus... even if the backdrop is stars & planets rather than dungeons & ruins, this is still D&D. Have you seen some of the stuff that passes for biology in this game? Hard science isn't exactly the building block of the game here.

But... I am open to discussing fixing them. My basic intention with the race is to throw together the Ctarl-Ctarl of Outlaw Star, the Khaijit of Elder Scrolls (where, depending on moon-phase, kittens produced by any female khaijit can grow up to be house-cats, dire tigers, or cat-people), and the Altarian Warrior-Women and see if I can come up with something suitably pulpy/80s.

Something to keep in mind with asexual reproduction -- the alternative exists for reasons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_sexual_reproduction#Promotion_of_gene tic_variation

Max_Killjoy

2017-06-21, 10:11 PM

I... honestly don't know how to answer this. PF's space-fantasy elements just don't really click with me - they feel more like a PF analogue to D20 future than something that supports the "D&D in Space" motif. Spelljammer, I love it for being a non-planar world-hopping setting, but in the end, it's too campy and too obviously "Age of Sail in Space" in its motif.

I... really don't know how to explain what the setting is supposed to be. It's D&D under alien skies. Where ancient ruins may orbit dying suns and pirate kings gather the loot of a thousand worlds, ripe for the plucking. It's a place where science and sorcery are indistinguishable and often equally mysterious, where psychic elf-like matriarchs command mind-thralled hulking space orc slaves, and mechanical beings wield swords enwreathed in the same elemental fire that gives them life and soul, and brave adventurers travel between the stars on glimmer-scaled dragons whilst brandishing a sword in one hand and a pistol-like laser-wand in the other.

...Sorry, I really can't answer it better than that.

That's pretty evocative, actually. It's a great starting point to explain what you're after.

It sounds like a world where there's light, but maybe not always the "right" colors... and shining at odd angles, casting long strange deep shadows.

The Aelfar will tell you that the Sundering of the Exodus, when different colony-fleets went different ways after fleeing the death of their homeworld, was born of outside circumstances. And, this is true to an extent; space-storms and the like did play a large role in causing lone ships or whole groups to break away from the main fleet as it traveled towards its current domicile. But the truth is that a large part of the blame lies in aelfar arrogance and the simple fact that long-range communication was never a priority for them. By the time they managed to get a proper star-spanning network going, those who'd gotten lost along the way were scattered into the darkness of space; the "mainstream" community doesn't even know that any of these "strays" managed to survive.

Not that they'd care much, because even now, the aelfar are not exactly a united people. That's what happens when you're an entire race of aristocrats - there's literally no class divisions as such amongst the aelfar. You have the necromancer elves, who are basically the nobles, and you have the various engineered slave-beasts, which are, quite obviously, not going to be a political presence - how often does your computer get to vote on your income tax?

Incidentally, this means that "Aelfar Space" is a great origin point for "minor" PC races; experiments in more independent/intelligent slaves that may have failed, or worked too well, or even worked out as intended.

Aelfar society is a byzantine affair - the trope that comes to mind is "Deadly, Decadent Court". Aelfar group themselves in very large extended family units - Clans, Houses, whatever you want to call them - and these are essentially nations unto themselves that conduct both internal and external intrigue, mostly against other aelfar Houses.

Yeah, there are shades of drow culture in this, but it's essential that they're not as mindlessly obsessed with backstabbing treachery as the drow - they're not desperate to please an insane demon-goddess, after all.

Aelfar Houses are matriarchal, mostly out of symbolism: their cultural ideology is rooted in the concept that they are masters of life and death. As women, by giving birth, produce new life, they are seen as exemplifying this mastery. However, the active embrace of flesh-warping and biomancy has...influenced this. There are male House Heads... but, achieiving that position requires a sacrifice. To become able to access this highest of social ranks - in a nutshell, aelfar culture is like "male mayors are fine, male senate members are fine, but only a woman can be president" - an aelfar male has to undergo a ritualized "ascension" process, which boils down to either being transformed into a woman and undergoing a complete and successful pregnancy, or altering their anatomy to undergo a pregnancy whilst male. A House Head literally cannot claim the seat unless they've given birth at least once, and some of the more ambitious male House Heads do so more than once, for whatever reason.

Incidentally, in a "splatbook writeup" of the setting, there would be a huge sidebar here stating "yes, this is potentially some creepy crud; consider your players' feelings and adjust this aspect of the lore to suit your table!"

Despite what one might think, Aelfar culture is very much not a necrocracy. That's not to say sapient aelfar undead don't exist, but, culturally, they're inferior: undeath is seen as the route of a failure, someone who lacks the mojo to preserve their life any other way. Aelfar liches and mummies are forbidden by law from holding positions of political power and influence; an aelfar who chooses to become a lich is a very obsessed sage or even someone sentenced to this fate as the ultimate punishment.

Aelfarian longevity is assisted by their mastery of necromancy and flesh-warping. Of course, culturally, there are limits to what is acceptable; feasting on souls to sustain your youth is pretty much the height of unacceptable even to the most jaded aelfar House Head. Likewise, body-jacking younger aelfar is a hideous crime. You don't get to do that stuff. Period.

"Clone-jacking", on the other hand, where a young, soul-less body is produced in a uterine replicator for the explicit purpose of being a new host to an old soul, is legal. But "rejuvenated" aelfar are legally considered entirely new people by aelfar law. This means that such an aelfar cannot retain anything from their past life except maybe their membership in their old House, and even that can be renounced if they desire it or their House doesn't want them back. It's a brand new start... in every possible way. Many aelfar who undergo "rebirth" in that way don't even both to make an identical clone, to reinforce that by doing so, their old life is ending. New faces, new appearances - maybe even new genders, if they feel like it - it's rather like Gallifreyian Regeneration in Dr. Who, only without the ability to carry on the previous existence's life.

The Aelfar have a... complicated... relationship with the outside universe. A lot of their focus is directed inwards, for obvious reasons. But external diplomacy is a thing for many reasons. Outside factors can not only be a potential edge in the "great game" they play amongst their own kind, but the simple truth is that the novelty amuses and excites the Aelfar. After all, if you're going to live for eons, why do the same thing over and over again?

Novelty is a big commodity for these necromantic elves, and that really shouldn't be surprising when you think about it.

For obvious reasons, the "Xixixians" (and I desperately need help with a better name) attract a certain paternal fondness from the Aelfar, if with some condescending overtones. They see a kindred spirit and the bugs are eager to learn from the masters, so tutelage and trade are common.

Traggens amuse the aelfar, who see them as perfect playthings; easily bent to heel by enchantment spells if brute force is necessary, easily goaded by the skilled diplomat, and mindlessly violent enough to be huge fun as the war against each other, battle-beasts or anyone the aelfar sees fit to aim them at - yes, this has strained ties with the galaxy when they realize aelfar houses are behind traggen crusades.

Dworgs really don't like the aelfar, but when they're aware of them, the aelfar actually quite like them. The fact that these are "traggen with brains" intrigues and excites the aelfar, who consider them much better sport. Hells, if I ever do 5e crunch for the Tel-Amhothlan (elf/orc hybrids from Kingdoms of Kalamar), they would fit in perfectly as the fruit of the rare unions when aelfar persuade dworg "rival-friends" to give in to their feelings of Foe Yay. That's not to say there aren't traggen-born Tel-Amhothlan, but they're much rarer, as fewer aelfar see the traggen as being worth coaxing into bed.

Felinoids are similar to the traggen, as far as Aelfar are concerned: deliciously violent and primitive, and so much fun to play with.

Humans are fun; not as viable as sport as the traggen and felinoids, but amusing, and that adaptability has such interesting prospects. Aelfar being aelfar, this interest can range from trading agreements to trying to enslave and experiment upon humans to trying to get humans into bed.

Denizens of the Aurian Empire are mostly rivals, which in the aelfar viewpoint actually makes them valuable friends: testing their mettle against the military might of the Aurian Empire is a good way to while away the centuries.

For the same reason, Quetzalii and their tendency to hate aelfar makes them fun, although most consider them much more boring than dworgs - so prone to ranting about "the light" and all that nonsense.

Snapperjaws are basically slave-stock waiting to be tamed, as far as the aelfar are concerned. They haven't succeeded on a wide scale yet, but they've had results promising enough to keep the "kill them all, they're useless vermin" advocates to an easily ignored minority.

Lotusians make aelfar roll their eyes with their preaching, but the elves do respect the plant-sages. They just don't show it very openly. Still, they admire the lotusian pasion, and their knack for surviving.

Scavvers are... mostly under the aelfar radar. These space elves prefer bio-tech and necro-tech for their gear, so they don't have a lot of interest in the mekanikal artificering of the scavvers. They're not hostile, they just... don't usually interact.

Voidstalkers are a source of keen interest, and their assassins have often had profitable relationships amongst the aelfar Houses.

...And, I've basically run out of steam here, so I'll just leave this for when you return.

You're really off to a great start with this.

Somewhere in the thread I got the idea that the Scavvers and the Aelfar were somehow related in their distant origins, that they had left their original homeworld(s) for related reasons or something -- was that someone else's idea that was bouncing around, or something you'd mentioned along the way? IMO, there's a lot to be said for some connection, mistrust, and/or relationship between the masters of flesh-magic and the masters of tech-magic.

Honest Tiefling

2017-06-22, 12:38 PM

Somewhere in the thread I got the idea that the Scavvers and the Aelfar were somehow related in their distant origins, that they had left their original homeworld(s) for related reasons or something -- was that someone else's idea that was bouncing around, or something you'd mentioned along the way? IMO, there's a lot to be said for some connection, mistrust, and/or relationship between the masters of flesh-magic and the masters of tech-magic.

Along this vein, the Scavvers have horn like protrusions from their skulls. Presumably the Oni would as well. Is there a hint of relation between the two?

And to be fair, oni and tielfings have had a shared ancestry anyway in DnD for a few editions...

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-22, 04:47 PM

That's pretty evocative, actually. It's a great starting point to explain what you're after.

It sounds like a world where there's light, but maybe not always the "right" colors... and shining at odd angles, casting long strange deep shadows.
Why, thank you!

Somewhere in the thread I got the idea that the Scavvers and the Aelfar were somehow related in their distant origins, that they had left their original homeworld(s) for related reasons or something -- was that someone else's idea that was bouncing around, or something you'd mentioned along the way? IMO, there's a lot to be said for some connection, mistrust, and/or relationship between the masters of flesh-magic and the masters of tech-magic.
No... nothing about a direct connection was ever mentioned or implied before you. They both lost their worlds, but their species aren't related - they even lost them in different ways.

Along this vein, the Scavvers have horn like protrusions from their skulls. Presumably the Oni would as well. Is there a hint of relation between the two?

And to be fair, oni and tielfings have had a shared ancestry anyway in DnD for a few editions...
Wasn't particularly planning on it; the Oni are supposed to be mutated traggen, created and then discarded by the Aurian Empire.

Max_Killjoy

2017-06-22, 05:51 PM

Honest Tiefling

2017-06-22, 06:54 PM

I must have misread something, then. Regardless, it does make a point of contrast between the two cultures.

Agreed. Are any races related? It might help flesh out a race you are having issues with.

And what are the Scavver 'Horns'? Personally, I would find it amusing if the Oni had tusks, as opposed to the Scavvers, who have a more horn-like structure. Then again, maybe having people poach Oni for their ivory would be too silly.

As for continuing the thread, let's go back to the Scavvers. They're little artic techmonkies, with strong respect for their technology due to spirits inhabiting it. They're modest, since their culture derived from one wearing a lot of clothes and because they have a lot of snarky tech lying around complaining at them.

1) What of gender? Yeah, we have some interesting options in the Aelfar and Lotusians, but we don't know what their view of it is.

2) What are their views of the environment? Perhaps they don't have a high respect for nature, because nature on their world kept trying to eat them. Why preserve dumb animals and useless plants at the expense of sapient life? Especially when that life tries to eat your children constantly? Would also be another pro for the whole world ship thing. No space dingos trying to eat your babies.

3) Maybe they hate vermin. They like their world ships nice and clean, and a vermin infestation is from some idiot bringing one on board. These things have no use or purpose to them, and therefore must be eradicated.

4) Are other people allowed on their world ships? I imagine if you are doing a space fantasy world ship there is room to spare, but things aren't built for them.

5) No race other then the Lotusians seem to have scent. Who would have scent? I feel like this shouldn't be the scavver to make them more Greasemonkey and less actual monkey, but perhaps the Oni should have scent?

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-23, 04:48 AM

Agreed. Are any races related? It might help flesh out a race you are having issues with.
Hmm... just thinking about it...

Oni and Dworgs are both offshoots of the Traggen race.

Snapperjaws are an offshoot of the Lotusian race.

It might perhaps be interesting if Quetzalii are actually the origin point for Ryujin - that, much like how the Aurian God-Emperors originally made Oni by corrupting/mutating Traggen, they similarly perverted the Quetzalli to create their new slave-soldiers, repeating history.

In fact, back on page 2, I think the original concept of the Quetzalii is that they were humans, originally, but used ancient rites/relics to transform themselves into the semblance of and/or heirs to a now-extinct race of (somewhat misconceptually perceived as) benevolent beings - basically an adaptation of the 3.5 lore for Dragonborn, but using Coatls intead of Dragons. So, whilst Quetzalii can propagate themselves, they can also transform human volunteers into new members of their race as well.

This would make Ryujin originate as either humans or Quetzalii, although they are now their own independent race - it's more of the difference between Apes and Humans, whilst the Traggen-Dworg/Oni split is more of a Neanderthal/Cro-magnon level of difference.

There aren't any other races off the top of my head that I was thinking are directly related to each other, although that is something we should maybe discuss?

And what are the Scavver 'Horns'? Personally, I would find it amusing if the Oni had tusks, as opposed to the Scavvers, who have a more horn-like structure. Then again, maybe having people poach Oni for their ivory would be too silly.
Scavver horns are chitinous growths; they serve no practical purpose, but may have been mating displays in their primordial ancestors. Oni horns are reinforced bone and are sharp & durable enough to be used as weapons.

As for continuing the thread, let's go back to the Scavvers. They're little artic techmonkies, with strong respect for their technology due to spirits inhabiting it. They're modest, since their culture derived from one wearing a lot of clothes and because they have a lot of snarky tech lying around complaining at them.
Yeah, that's more or less how they're shaping up to be.

1) What of gender? Yeah, we have some interesting options in the Aelfar and Lotusians, but we don't know what their view of it is.
I was thinking that, for scavvers, they're fairly normal. Being monotremes removes a lot of the inherent "gender vulnerability" of a more mammalian organism - their young gestate externally in eggs, after all - and so that makes them fairly gender indifferent. Men and women exist, but there's no real reason to push them to different roles.

That said, in most egg-laying species, the females are larger than the males, to better cope with the act. Not saying that scavvers would be outright matriachal - if anything, they would probably be more techno-magocrical, relying on the leadership of those best adept at manipulating the arcane sciences and sorceries that sustain their existence - but it might be simple biology that the female scavvers are bigger than the males.

2) What are their views of the environment? Perhaps they don't have a high respect for nature, because nature on their world kept trying to eat them. Why preserve dumb animals and useless plants at the expense of sapient life? Especially when that life tries to eat your children constantly? Would also be another pro for the whole world ship thing. No space dingos trying to eat your babies.
That... actually makes a lot of sense, especially when you consider it further fuels why they'd prefer World Ships to living on inhabited worlds, particularly if we emphasize their homeworld's status as a Death World - which makes the Kixians and their love of their similarly lethal homeworld really incomprehensible to them, and furthermore builds a sense of common ground with the Aelfar, who suffer no lower life save that which they can master.

In fact, given their Iconic Class is the Artificer, who have the ability to create a lesser construct helper as a universal class feature... maybe most animal and even many plant lifeforms on the World Ships are mekanikal constructs? Clearly machine-based, but somehow acting like plants and animals?

...As I say this, and I'll hope you both forgive me, this blend of masked figures and preferring mekanikal life to organic is kind of reminding me of the Quintessons, which may be fruitful territory to explore.

3) Maybe they hate vermin. They like their world ships nice and clean, and a vermin infestation is from some idiot bringing one on board. These things have no use or purpose to them, and therefore must be eradicated.
That makes all too much sense.

4) Are other people allowed on their world ships? I imagine if you are doing a space fantasy world ship there is room to spare, but things aren't built for them.
Hmm... I'd say that direct access is probably very restricted. Scavvers are the friendliest neighbors in the world, so long as you reciprocate their "this is your side of the fence, this is mine, we don't cross over, see?" attitude. They never fail to be polite when landing on other worlds to trade or do whatever, but they are fiercely protective of the independence and sovereignty of their homes.

Respect that, and you got no problem. Indeed, once they feel comfortable enough that they can trust you, they'll allow you aboard: it's just not something they extend automatically to everybody. And violating trust of that level? Ohhh boy. They don't ever forget, or forgive.

5) No race other then the Lotusians seem to have scent. Who would have scent? I feel like this shouldn't be the scavver to make them more Greasemonkey and less actual monkey, but perhaps the Oni should have scent?
I would argue that all of the "beastfolk" races - ryujin, ki'rinii, hengeyokai, quetzalii, kixians, gyokutans, vardirans, the lotusians, the snapperjaws and the oni should have scent abilities. The snapperjaws retain it because of their lotusians (maybe just call 'em "Veshy", plural and singular?) ancestry, the beastfolk have it because they're more "animalistic", and oni had it engineered into them by the God-Emperors to better blend in.

I'd also argue that pheromone "language" is probably most important amongst the veshy, the snapperjaws and the oni, whilst for the beastfolk races, it's more an added level of nuance to body language and spoken communication.

Max_Killjoy

2017-06-23, 08:16 AM

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-23, 05:46 PM

The scavvers don't have to hold a monolithic opinion on a lot of things... those different ships and fleets also present the possibility of different subcultures.

Maybe some of the big ships maintained zoos, trying to preserve the life of their native world.

Hmm... you know, that actually does make a lot of sense. The antipathy towards vermin and parasites probably is more monolithic, but, you're right, scavvers could run the gambit from "desperately preserving what they can of the old world" to "artificial life is superior".

Also, can we come up with a better name? "Scavver" really derives from "Scavenger", and I'm not sure that it works as a name if this race isn't desperately clinging to existence on the fringes of society like the quarians were.

Max_Killjoy

2017-06-23, 06:19 PM

Hmm... you know, that actually does make a lot of sense. The antipathy towards vermin and parasites probably is more monolithic, but, you're right, scavvers could run the gambit from "desperately preserving what they can of the old world" to "artificial life is superior".

Also, can we come up with a better name? "Scavver" really derives from "Scavenger", and I'm not sure that it works as a name if this race isn't desperately clinging to existence on the fringes of society like the quarians were.

Maybe part of what of what makes them somewhat frustrating to deal with for other cultures is that you can think you know all the ins and outs and quirks of dealing with them... and then you run into a group from another fleet.

As for that name, here's some brainstorming:

Katikarat
Relojero
Zegarmistrz
Shasovnik
Demjimêr
Kelloseppä

When I'm stuck for a name, I start throwing words that are related to the thing I'm trying to name into Google Translate, until something inspires me, and then play with it until I like the result.

Each of those words is "clockmaker" in another language.

Or maybe they don't share names for certain things in their own language, for reasons related to why they don't show their skin, or because names have power, or...

Maybe "scavver" was an insulting name someone else applied to them in the distant past, and they decided to own it.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-24, 07:36 PM

That's a pretty neat idea, and it makes sense. Different world-fleets being unique sounds like a good angle to me.

Also, from your sample names, I think Rollejero catches my attention the most.

Now... I wanted to wait until Honest_Tiefling was back to bring this up, but I feel I should just go ahead and share it. I've been doing some thinking about the Tanuki race of the Aurian Empire, and here's something that came to me: in the myths, as I recall, tanuki are very fond of sake, and they're frequently depicted carrying a sake gourd (which, admittedly, is based on their status as symbols of good luck). Morever, they're actually considered one of the more magically powerful breeds of hengeyokai, even better at shapeshifting than kitsunes are.

So, what if the "role" the tanuki play in the Aurian empire is as a race of alchemists? The Aurians have a big "fantasy Orient in space" motif, and alchemy was very important in China (and, to a lesser extent, Japan) - they would essentially be the empire's "tech guys", responsible for many of their basic magical gears and medicines.

If that works... here's an expansion that's more controversial: given that tanuki are rather heavily gender-aspected in their traditional mythos, perhaps one way of homaging it is to have it that the God-Emperors have manipulated the tanuki race; females are now kept under close control, and dosed with alchemical concoctions that cause 90% of all tanuki to be born male. This stranglehold over the reproductive abilities of the race forces the tanuki to obey the God-Emperors loyally and serve them, or else risk extinction.

There's also the possibility of this leading to a "third" gender that basically amounts to "expendable" males repurposed into comfort women used to keep the majority of males who'll never win breeding rights under control, but that's probably too dark and/or fetish fuelly to be taken seriously.

Max_Killjoy

2017-06-25, 10:44 AM

That's a pretty neat idea, and it makes sense. Different world-fleets being unique sounds like a good angle to me.

Also, from your sample names, I think Rollejero catches my attention the most.

Mess around with it a bit, tweak it to fit.

Now... I wanted to wait until Honest_Tiefling was back to bring this up, but I feel I should just go ahead and share it. I've been doing some thinking about the Tanuki race of the Aurian Empire, and here's something that came to me: in the myths, as I recall, tanuki are very fond of sake, and they're frequently depicted carrying a sake gourd (which, admittedly, is based on their status as symbols of good luck). Morever, they're actually considered one of the more magically powerful breeds of hengeyokai, even better at shapeshifting than kitsunes are.

So, what if the "role" the tanuki play in the Aurian empire is as a race of alchemists? The Aurians have a big "fantasy Orient in space" motif, and alchemy was very important in China (and, to a lesser extent, Japan) - they would essentially be the empire's "tech guys", responsible for many of their basic magical gears and medicines.

If that works... here's an expansion that's more controversial: given that tanuki are rather heavily gender-aspected in their traditional mythos, perhaps one way of homaging it is to have it that the God-Emperors have manipulated the tanuki race; females are now kept under close control, and dosed with alchemical concoctions that cause 90% of all tanuki to be born male. This stranglehold over the reproductive abilities of the race forces the tanuki to obey the God-Emperors loyally and serve them, or else risk extinction.

There's also the possibility of this leading to a "third" gender that basically amounts to "expendable" males repurposed into comfort women used to keep the majority of males who'll never win breeding rights under control, but that's probably too dark and/or fetish fuelly to be taken seriously.

While normally I'd avoid "planet of hats (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlanetOfHats)" worldbuilding like I'd avoid the plague, or gas station sushi... in the case of your Aurian Empire with its Confucian undertones and "quasi-deity" rulers, I think it makes sense.

There's some risk in using alchemy and medicine as the heavy-handed means of enforcing the loyalty of the people who are also your best and brightest in those fields and do most of that work.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-26, 01:58 AM

Max_Killjoy

2017-06-26, 10:42 AM

I forgot to bring this up... essentially, what I'm thinking about on a meta-level is that the Couatls, the Aurian Emperors and the Vanadiran Clan-Mothers represent the last remnants of ancient "dragon-gods", dragon-like demi-deities who once ruled the universe. Furthermore, they all contrast each other by being morally gray, and yet exhibiting it in different ways.

For the Couatls, they're remembered as a force of good, when the truth was their battling evil was mostly due to finding it fun and as part of a complex social manuevering system than anything.

The Clan-Mothers are supposed to be relatively "human"; they created the Vanadirans for kinship and company, because they were lonely, and they do care for their daughters... but they still enjoy how those daughters will fight, bleed and kill to try and express their love and worship for the beings who gave birth to them.

The Aurians truly mean well, and there should be some positive traits to the Empire as well. But, they are arrogant, full of over-inflated egos, and willing to squash dissent because of that superiority - "I know what's best, so shut up and do what I say", in a nutshell, which causes them to lean the most heavily towards black of the three, just as the Couatls, due to being dead and somewhat taken out of context, lean the most towards being white.

Does this make sense to you all?

It makes sense to me.

Is it widely understood that they're the remnants? Do they use this as a validation of their power, in the way that a king might claim descent from a semi-mythical hero or demigod, or the founder of an ancient dynasty?

Or are their origins "secret knowledge", or lost in the fog of the long-distant past?

Do the two remaining "ruling castes" make different / competing claims as to why the old empire fell, as to who is the legitimate inheritor of the "ruling mandate", etc?

Do the two "ruling castes" have access to secret knowledge, science, etc, from the old empire that isn't shared with any of their subjects, and allows them to maintain their edge? This might answer how the Aurians are able to manipulate the reproduction of the Tanuki, who are supposed to be their empire's "alchemists" and "physicians", without the Tanuki easily overcoming it.

Max_Killjoy

2017-06-26, 09:26 PM

No... nothing about a direct connection was ever mentioned or implied before you. They both lost their worlds, but their species aren't related - they even lost them in different ways.

Found it -- I knew I wasn't crazy (at least as it relates to this particular thing).

This gives me an idea. What if the Scavvers and the Aelfar were from the same dead world, and originally one people?

I also saw your subsequent reply.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-26, 10:41 PM

It makes sense to me.

Is it widely understood that they're the remnants? Do they use this as a validation of their power, in the way that a king might claim descent from a semi-mythical hero or demigod, or the founder of an ancient dynasty?

Or are their origins "secret knowledge", or lost in the fog of the long-distant past?

Do the two remaining "ruling castes" make different / competing claims as to why the old empire fell, as to who is the legitimate inheritor of the "ruling mandate", etc?

Do the two "ruling castes" have access to secret knowledge, science, etc, from the old empire that isn't shared with any of their subjects, and allows them to maintain their edge? This might answer how the Aurians are able to manipulate the reproduction of the Tanuki, who are supposed to be their empire's "alchemists" and "physicians", without the Tanuki easily overcoming it.

Their origins are considered "secret knowledge", something only a handful of dedicated sages or conspiracy theorists have managed to wrinkle out; the World That Came Before, for lack of a better term, is something they keep tightly locked to themselves.

They're not technically the same species, just to clarify, they were just "powers" during the time of old. Its... I'm not really sure how to explain it better. They aren't biologically related, but they had similar heights; both lost everything, both are now rebuilding from the ground up - at least, the God-Emperors of the Aurians are. The Clan-Mothers have given up empire-building as a mug's game, because they saw how iot ultimately caused the annihilation of their species.

And yes, most definitely. Whether Aurian or Clan-Mother, they both have access to their own unique ancient hyper-magics and technosorceries and other occultic edges that no other modern powers can hope to emulate.

How to put this... basically, in a setting where everybody else is restricted to 9th level spells, these two (and maybe the most ancient of Paxians (Lotusians, trying for a better name)) can still cast 10th and 11th level spells, ala the Arcane Age of Forgotten Realms.

Max_Killjoy

2017-06-26, 11:59 PM

Alright... this is my first major draft of races, they've all been percolating about in my head - names are my Kryptonite, so please remember that any name surrounded in quotation marks is a placeholder used because "hey, you!" gets confusing.

About all I have for this is my previous suggestion to play around in Translate until something clicks, and then tweak it to fit the setting. Setting I was working on (at present, I'm kinda slogged to a slow crawl under the weight of creating an entire world and a system for it) I based all the ancient names of deities and places and species on Sumerian, and the "modern" on Greek, since the world/setting is supposed to have a feeling of a Hellenistic Greek feel layered over an ancient Mesopotamian feel.

Also... I'm really struggling with deciding about whether or not to include religion/divine magic in this setting. I'm not very adept at theological developments and clerics have never really interested me as a class, which is a big reason why my post-apocalyptic fantasy setting, Malebolge (which I'm declaring is a planet in this setting's 'verse, ala Toril, Krynn and Oerth in Spelljammer), is a godless world. I could seriously use help with that.

I think a "fantasy" setting without classic D&D-type "intelligent but hyper-petty spell battery" deities is a great idea, especially a "darkish 80s/pulp space fantasy" setting. However, I'd either parcel out some of the important "divine" spells to other sorts of spellcasters (even if that's making "heal" a techno-alchemical potion and "create food" a techno-alchemical "bottle of meal pills"), or allow divine magic along "Eastern philosophical lines" rather than "Western theistic" as defaulted in many fantasy settings. Or, see below in my responses for the celestial empire.

Humans: ...I really have no solid ideas for these guys. I know they're everywhere, and fractious, but nothing more than beyond that. I'm not certain if I should explicitly tie them to Eden (Malebolge before it blew up) or if their origins are a mystery; maybe they evolved on many different worlds and spread out across the stars.

Maybe humans are one of the few species that spontaneously achieved interstellar-level tech without help, and "bootstrapped" themselves (variation on Brin's Uplift setting where it's almost unheard of for a species to evolve intellect independently). Or they discovered a lost cache of ancient tech in the solar system and "got out" on their own that way.

If humans really did seem to evolve independently, maybe in a "space fantasy" setting humans are the result of the universe trying to "understand itself", or they're the universe's "antibodies" in response to something "infecting" it.

Or the seemingly spontaneous independent evolution is really the result of the lost empire or its enemies planting a ticking timebomb all over the galaxy as a last-ditch plan for vengeance, seeding the primitive life of countless worlds with the evolutionary template for humans to eventually arise... only something went wrong and humans aren't total world-devouring galaxy-burning monsters... :smalltongue:

Aelfar: Space-faring elves whose world, Aelfheim, was ultimately destroyed by the very planar convergence that had given it life. Their people set forth on great living ships through the stars, spreading in different colony-fleets across the universe. Proud, haughty, cold and cruel, the aelfar are an arrogant people who believe in the utter superiority of their race over others. Their "science", such as it is, is founded on the principles of flesh-warping and necromancy; breeding living tools and enslaving the dead to create the backbone for a life of indolence and luxury. Plants, animals and fungi are shaped through magic into forms useful to Aelfar civilization, whilst even the bodies of the dead can be made to work until the Aelfar see fit to release them. Creepy as this is, aelfar are not inherently warlike or evil, and so they are content to live and let life - if left alone. Aelfar adventurers are often explorers, seeking other colonies founded since their people scattered across the galaxy, or else exiles as a result of the political intrigues that dominate their culture.
(Crunch-wise, these are Mul Daya Elves, although I might consider playing around and homebrewing stats.)

Discussed at length already, I really like where you're going with these guys. ( http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22118249&postcount=128 )

"Traggen": Hotheaded, aggressive, predatory humanoids who have a notably limited ability to sense pain, the traggen are a warlike and savage race of arcano-barbarians who respect only two things: strength, and the will to use it. Scattered and fractious, although they have no true empires or presence on the galactic stage, the traggen have long earned some level of grudging respect for their might and their aptitude as mercenaries, pirates and, on rare occasions, planet-crushing hordes.
(Thematically, these are the setting's Orcs; crunch-wise, use Half-Orc stats. This setting's equivalent of a half-orc would probably best be represented by the Goliath.)

Is their society more well-rounded behind the scenes than they sound here, with "Traggen" who build stuff and make things and operate things and keep stuff going? If not, did they have these sorts at one time, only to have them fade from the culture after the "Traggen" were in space and able to sell their violent services in exchange for stuff other species made, and/or take what they wanted from other cultures? If they never had them, who gave these guys guns and a way off their planet? If they're launching interstellar wars, how do they get around between planets, and fight space battles -- are they able to make their own warships, or are they stealing ships and hiring merc crews to do the tech work?

( Also, what's an "arcano-barbarian"? )

"Dworg": When the last great traggen war ended, centuries ago, something unforseen happened. From among the winnowed ranks of the survivors, traggen of unusual intelligence and ambition arose. These traggen had learned the hard way that mere muscle and brutish rage could not prosper in a galaxy dominated by magic and order, and swore to take that power for themselves. Naming themselves the Dworg, "Heirs of Victory", they seek to create their own culture, one still giving strength and will its due respect, but realizing and embracing the fact that strength is not the providence of body alone. Their numbers are growing comparatively slowly, as they selectively breed and educate themselves and suitable "uplifted" members of their traggen progenitors, but the race is growing, and someday may be presenting a nasty surprise to a galaxy complacent about the true threat of the traggen.
(These are the setting's Scro; uplifted, intelligent, superior orcs, and would use my homebrew Scro crunch.)

These sound far more dangerous in a technologically (or arcanotechnologically) advanced setting.

"Xixixians": Mantis-like humanoids who evolved on a deadly, hostile jungle world, the xixixians grew to dominate their world not through physical might, but through superior intelligence, using teamwork and self-improvement to modify their bodies and improve their minds until they could outwit and outfight the predators and other dangers of their homeworld. Body modification is a religion to the xixixians, with each believing that their body is a temple of the soul and must be refined, honed and customized to better suit their true nature. This makes them about the only race with close ties or respect for the Aelfar, fellow masters of flesh-warping. Indeed, so ingrained is this belief in literal bodily refinement that not only is it used for ornamentation, but they have literally engineered themselves into different sub-species, based upon different philosophies about how much they should integrate into the greater galactic society.
(Essentially, Xixchil without the "stupidly individualistic" aspects of the fluff, and further inspiration taken from this pic here, which is basically a thri-kreen version of the infamous "furry meter": https://1d4chan.org/wiki/File:Buggy_chart.jpg "Purists" would be the 90% model, balancers the 70% model, and the most integration-focused/diplomatic corps caste would be the 50% model. Would need to homebrew racial stats for this.)

Do they have the "classic" insect-people hive-ish traits? "Caste" makes it sound like that might be the case. If so, then perhaps the different forms are "hatched" that way to fill different roles.

Or maybe that's too spot-on the common trope.

I think I like the idea of it being different philosophies that they're choosing to follow, and individuals are having germ-line modifications made to themselves so that they also pass them along to their offspring, making this a divergent species with many subspecies, that which aren't all inter-fertile between the extremes. Gives them a source of diversity and internal conflict that's somewhat counter to trope for insect-people, and a way to give players more choices in the game.

Vassals of the Glorious Celestial Lotus Empire: An array of many different races that are united under the leadership of the Celestial Lotus Emperor - basically, god-king oriental dragons. Really need a better name here, as this sounds less "pulp" and more "yellow peril".

How about just "Dragon Kings"... and "The Great Dragon King, Sovereign of the Stars, Almighty of Ages, Most Infinite Magesty" for the foremost of their number. :smallbiggrin: (I hope you'll forgive me the liberty of using that name for them in the rest of this post for the sake of brevity.)

Also, I can see them promoting the idea that right order, respect and loyalty, and each person knowing their proper place in the world, leads to prosperity and harmony for all. They (and their followers, all educated to believe) would insist that a Tanuki is happiest and best as a technoalchemist, because that is their proper role as decreed by the heavenly mandates, or some such. Lather rinse repeat for each of the the "proper place" of each "assimilated" species under their rule.

Perhaps at this point the Dragon Kings, or the Great Dragon King (etc etc) specifically, are so powerful and "enlightened", and/or the reverence that most of their subjects grant them so numerous and overwhelming, that it serves as a fount of divine spellcasting.

"Ryujin": The most honored and respected of the Celestial Vassals, the glorious Ryujin were magically engineered directly from the Emperors themselves to serve as the soldiers and police who keep the peace in the Empire and fight against invaders from beyond - or seek to fuel the empire's expansion. Slender, agile, reptilian beings who combine strength and innate mystical adeptness. Propaganda claims that they were literally born of the Emperors, but it's unknown if this is true; they may be magically modified and enslaved humans instead. Adventurers are either stranded soldiers, scouts, or exiled ronin.
(Basically Dragonborn with an Oriental/Lung/Imperial Dragon basis and a dash of the Nagaji from PF. Maybe should discuss actually basing them off of PF's Imperial Dragons directly to figure out both crunch and fluff?)

"Ki'rinii": Elegant, graceful, wise and courteous, the ki'rinii were also created from the Emperors, like the Ryujin, but were made to be sages and scholars, strong in magic and wise enough to support the celestial bureaucracy that keeps the empire running.
(Ki-rin people... really not sure what else to do with them, but I know there's potential here.)

I think I like the idea of both being born from the blood of the Dragon Kings, in a totally alchemical process, rather than being modified humans. If these are to be the most trusted and loyal servants, blessed to stand in the very presence of the Dragon Kings, then I doubt the Dragon Kings would sully that with "low blood" from humans.

I'd imagine that the vassal species below almost never see, hear, or encounter the Dragon Kings directly.

Hengeyokai: The vassal-races of the empire, assorted humanoid beasts with many strange and magical abilities of their own.
(Weak, I know; I basically want to use the various hengeyokai races - kitsunes, tanuki, jorogumo, itachi, bakeneko, mujina and kawauso - and give them all unique roles, because they were individual cultures before the Empire claimed them as its own, but I'm not sure where to start.)

"Gyokutoans": The newest people to be brought into the Empire proper, the gyokutoans are a rabbit-like people still accepting their place in the great chain. Proud and fierce, but also passionate and fond of pleasures, the stereotypical gyokutoan is either a touchy yet disciplined warrior or a deceptively intelligent and sensual courtesan.
(Without a doubt the weakest of my "oriental space fantasy" races, these guys are inspired by the Japanese legend of the moon rabbit, but I'm not sure how to develop them from here.)

I like this as a way to fit in all sorts of "beast people" species in a "space fantasy" appropriate way, and I'm in favor of basing their "proper role" in the Empire on their mythical traits as you did with the Tanuki. Not weak, IMO.

Oni: Descendants of traggen who tried to conquer the empire, but who were conquered in turn. The Emperors took pity and sought to remake them into useful members of the Empire, but the process was... flawed. Too much traggen mentality remains, making them far more independent than the Empire likes. When the ryujin were created, the empire discarded them, and now they are outcasts without a true home or culture.

Maybe instead of discarding them, the Dragon Kings use them as a sort of "fire and forget" weapon, unleashing them on worlds they want neutralized but don't want to bother with administrating or "enlightening" after knocking out whatever is bothering them there. "It's useless to us, a nuisance really... just let the Oni have it", with the added implied threat of unleashed terror-troops that gives the Kings to lend weight to their words when dealing with recalcitrant worlds and would-be enemies.

Or perhaps the Tragger, with their respect for might, take in small family-bands of Oni to supplement their own strength.

Or perhaps the Dworg see them as wasted potential and have been taking them in and integrating them.

"Quetzalii": It is said that, in an age long gone, beautiful dragon-like beings called Couatl roamed the stars. Luminescent figures resembling winged serpents draped in feathers all the colors of the stars, they were staunch enemies of darkness and evil, who sought to bring light to the furthest reaches of the cosmos. The Couatl are gone, now. But their children remain; proud and honorable warrior-mystics who seek to carry on that legacy, bold explorers and dashing adventurer-archaeologists who seek to write their names in the stars.
(Essentially a couatl version of Dragonborn, but taking inspiration from 4e's depiction of the Couatl as a race whose "goodness" was born more of coincidence than the vanilla "they're just made of good" of previous editions.)

Another possible spot for some divine spellcasting, as they're warrior-mystics trying to carry on the mission of their lost progenitors -- progenitors who might serve as a focus for a variation of ancestor "worship".

"Lotusians": One of the most ancient races still holding a presence in the galaxy today, the lotusians are a flower-draped and androgynous race of humanoid plants who have been peacemakers, diplomats and explorers since the galaxy was young. Never imperially minded, the lotusians fell into decline during the Dark Times, their numbers winnowed by wars and strife. Now, only a handful of the sacred grove-worlds, where the most ancient of their kind have taken root as immobile masses of vegetation that produce new generations from womb-pods in their bulk, remain to provide a slow trickle of new generations. Some lotusians have succumbed to despair, but others still keep up the good fight, adventuring to continue their ancestral mission of bring peace to all other races.

I had not read this when I made my earlier suggestions. Perhaps my idea of a "rooted" individual getting up and going back out into the galaxy can be combined with the idea of permanently-rooted individuals and the seed/womb pods. Given that this is space fantasy, perhaps a powerful-enough ancient can spawn a mobile "node" that's much like a normal individual, but with a mental/soul connection that stretches as far as the "seedling" might wander, letting the ancient see the worlds anew.

Hmmm... perhaps tapping into the hidden ley-lines of the galaxy, the ancients can grant spells -- again, not "gods" in the classic sense, but here's a species that would be interested in spreading healing and light to the galaxy, and that has a good source for such already woven into what you've come up with.

"Snapperjaws": During the Dark Times, some lotusians succumbed to rage, hostility or despair. Determined to protect themselves, they employed forbidden magics to make themselves more warlike, more suited for what they felt was needed: the ability to match the barbarism of the young races on their own terms. That experiment went hideously right. The snapperjaws are a savage and barbaric breed, which even traggen and felinoids regard with some disdain. Though far more fecund and adaptable than the lotusians, these savage plant-like beings have lost the keen minds of their ancestral stock. The stereotypical snapperjaw is little better than a beast, with only their weird, instinctive knack for salvaging arcanotechnology and strange plant-based bio-tech allowing them to spread across the stars. The best of them are mercenaries and thugs, the worst are little more than flesh-eating monsters that consider everything else mere prey. They are the one race that lotusians evidence true fear or even hatred for, but some of their ancient kin still hope that, even if they will never be part of the great groves again, they can still be brought into the light.

Mary Mary, quite contrary, how does your garden grow... :smalleek:

"Felinoids:" Proud, warlike and almost stubbornly savage, the felinoids are a race of all-female barbarians renowned across the galaxy as mercenaries, thugs, pirates, raiders and adventurers. On their home-worlds they organize in great clans, each centered around the Clan-Mother; these strange "cat-dragon" alien beings are all that remains of a long-lost race, although what brought them so low remains unknown. All female themselves, the Clan-Mothers use their mastery of sorcery and science to asexually spawn offspring, creating new generations of felinoids. As such, all felinoids revere and love their progenitors as literal mother-gods. In felinoid culture, their purpose is to love, serve and entertain their creators, who gave them the "First Great Gift" (life) and who will reward them with status and treasure in exchange for proving their worth. Indeed, the mightiest of all felinoids may be granted a supreme honor: transformation into a new Clan-Mother. This, then, fuels their drive to travel to the stars, to amass treasures and stories that will prove their love for the Clan-Mothers.

The presence of the Clan-Mothers gets around a lot of the normal objections to monogender asexually-reproducing intelligent species. The Clan-Mothers can surely tweak the genes of their daughters to grant them improvement, variation, and novel traits.

I really don't have a problem with them being lusty and hedonistic, since they've a culture of seeking entertainment, stories, and the "biggest" life possible, with no familial complications or implications to get in the way. What I can't see them ever being is servile or submissive to anyone other than a Clan-Mother.

"Scavvers": Traveling the known stars in great colony-fleets, the Scavvers are an enigmatic race who never remove their protective enviro-armor suits save in the most intimate of positions. They are renowned and respected as master smiths, miners and, especially, lords of the mysterious sorcery-science of arcanotechnology: mining asteroids and moons, they trade valuable crafted goods across the worlds, commanding high prices and great respect - for their potent defense of their own lives if nothing else. Their homeworld was destroyed by some great apocalypse long ago; although welcome to settle anywhere, the truth is that they have developed a cultural fear to the very idea, believing their nomadic existence actually keeps their race safe from seeing it happen again.

Much discussed already, I really like these guys, with their "artificial intellect" pets and their love of arcanotech, their very private and reserved natures, their "encounter" suits, their preference for colder environments, their potentially diverse culture due to the nature of the fleets, being one of the more "normal" cultures compared to the rest, being gender-egalitarian monotremes, etc. If I were playing in this setting, this is the first species I'd use for a character, I think.

Something I just thought of for them you could "borrow", that I used for a species in my "medium-hardness" SF setting -- maybe they need to wear breath masks when around others because in what most species consider a normal atmosphere, they can suffer from hyperoxia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperoxia), since they long ago adapted to first the thinning oxygen content of their dying world, and then to a more efficient lower oxygen environment in their ships, and now an earth-standard oxygen content can literally poison them with too much of a good thing.

They were called "Flaer", they evolved from an arboreal species on a cool, dim world orbiting a smaller star than our Sun -- shortish, lithe people, with less sexual dimorphism than humans; they liked it cooler than most humans typically do; they had big dark eyes with pupils that could open very wide and were sensitive to infrared as well as "visible" light (so they also needed goggles in "normal" light levels), and had big pointed ears that gave them great passive hearing, and active echolocation that could be focused as a stunning blast of sound at close range... and they were more at home in zero-gee than baseline humans because of their ancestors moving around in three dimensions all the time. They were often competitors to humans in asteroid and debris field mining, and the more prejudiced humans (and others) called them "squeakers" because of barely-audible noise from their echolocation, or "anteaters" because of their ubiquitous masks and hoses and goggles, and accused them of being "wreckers" and "scrappers" and thieves. The normal masks had built-in adapters to allow them to echolocate, but interfered with the sound burst, so they had to risk taking off their masks to use it in a fight. Human miner-thugs quickly learned that yanking off a "squeaker's" mask in a brawl was a good way to end up in the infirmary with hearing damage and a splitting headache.

"Voidstalkers": Mysterious and feared four-armed psionic warriors who draw upon the cold darkness between the stars through their mental arts. Ruthless, they have crafted a reputation as assassins without peer, bloody warrior-sages who believe that suffering and struggle are the keys to enlightenment. It's unknown if they have a home-world, but they are renowned travelers, popping up wherever they please. They gravitate towards the most lawless of regions, serving as mercenaries and killers for hire. But they do have their own strange codes of honor, and can make surprisingly loyal adventuring companions. Admittedly, the presence of a voidstalker tends to convey an impression that this party is disreputable at best, for it is well known they care more for bloodshed than for coin.

Hmmm... I need more to go on here.

Max_Killjoy

2017-06-27, 12:02 AM

Their origins are considered "secret knowledge", something only a handful of dedicated sages or conspiracy theorists have managed to wrinkle out; the World That Came Before, for lack of a better term, is something they keep tightly locked to themselves.

They're not technically the same species, just to clarify, they were just "powers" during the time of old. Its... I'm not really sure how to explain it better. They aren't biologically related, but they had similar heights; both lost everything, both are now rebuilding from the ground up - at least, the God-Emperors of the Aurians are. The Clan-Mothers have given up empire-building as a mug's game, because they saw how it ultimately caused the annihilation of their species.

And yes, most definitely. Whether Aurian or Clan-Mother, they both have access to their own unique ancient hyper-magics and technosorceries and other occultic edges that no other modern powers can hope to emulate.

How to put this... basically, in a setting where everybody else is restricted to 9th level spells, these two (and maybe the most ancient of Paxians (Lotusians, trying for a better name)) can still cast 10th and 11th level spells, ala the Arcane Age of Forgotten Realms.

I figured that the Couatl, the ancestors of the Clan-Mothers, and the ancestors of the Aurian "Dragon Kings" were three different species, who all survived the Fall of the old world and the Dark Times -- sorry if I implied otherwise.

As the plant-people are dedicated to Peace (as a whole), I can see them adopting the name "Paxians" so long ago that only the most ancient trees, almost entire groves unto themselves, have any idea what they were called before.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-27, 04:44 AM

I think a "fantasy" setting without classic D&D-type "intelligent but hyper-petty spell battery" deities is a great idea, especially a "darkish 80s/pulp space fantasy" setting. However, I'd either parcel out some of the important "divine" spells to other sorts of spellcasters (even if that's making "heal" a techno-alchemical potion and "create food" a techno-alchemical "bottle of meal pills"), or allow divine magic along "Eastern philosophical lines" rather than "Western theistic" as defaulted in many fantasy settings. Or, see below in my responses for the celestial empire.
I think we actually discussed this and you haven't seen it yet, but just in case:

The current plan I have is that, one, Theurge Wizards, Favored Soul Sorcerers and Celestial Warlocks are a thing in this setting. This, alongside Alchemist Artificers, provides a general source of healing and other restoratives. I can't recall if I decided to add Clerics & Druids in as well or if the aforementioned arcano-divinists are replacing them entirely. Presuming we go with both, Cleric/Druid characters are race restricted.

Clerics can be either Vanadirans (Life, Tempest, War), Paxians (Life, Light, Knowledge, Nature), or Ki'rinii (Light, Knowledge, War).

Druids can only be Paxians and only take the Circle of the Land.

There is room to discuss and refine this, but both "semi-divine arcanists" and, if they exist, true divine casters should be a rarity.

Maybe humans are one of the few species that spontaneously achieved interstellar-level tech without help, and "bootstrapped" themselves (variation on Brin's Uplift setting where it's almost unheard of for a species to evolve intellect independently). Or they discovered a lost cache of ancient tech in the solar system and "got out" on their own that way.

If humans really did seem to evolve independently, maybe in a "space fantasy" setting humans are the result of the universe trying to "understand itself", or they're the universe's "antibodies" in response to something "infecting" it.

Or the seemingly spontaneous independent evolution is really the result of the lost empire or its enemies planting a ticking timebomb all over the galaxy as a last-ditch plan for vengeance, seeding the primitive life of countless worlds with the evolutionary template for humans to eventually arise... only something went wrong and humans aren't total world-devouring galaxy-burning monsters... :smalltongue:
All good possibilities. Humanity tends to be the most mysterious and unknown of races, so I see no wrong with preserving that tradition here. ;)

Is their society more well-rounded behind the scenes than they sound here, with "Traggen" who build stuff and make things and operate things and keep stuff going? If not, did they have these sorts at one time, only to have them fade from the culture after the "Traggen" were in space and able to sell their violent services in exchange for stuff other species made, and/or take what they wanted from other cultures? If they never had them, who gave these guys guns and a way off their planet? If they're launching interstellar wars, how do they get around between planets, and fight space battles -- are they able to make their own warships, or are they stealing ships and hiring merc crews to do the tech work?

( Also, what's an "arcano-barbarian"? )
Traggen, in my head, are currently a lot like Warhammer 40,000's Orks. There are dedicated tek-boys and the like, but their knowledge is more instinctive and they don't pass things on or refine them like other races do. Think of... Warcraft's Goblins, for lack of a better comparison; they make stuff, but their focus is on the "making", not on the "how does this work", so their stuff tends to be very rough and function-over-form.

An alternative example: if every other race in the setting is using tech that looks like the Protoss, then traggen gear looks more like the Terran Confederacy.

Also "arcano-barbarian" is an adaptation of "techno-barbarian" to a setting that runs on sorcery rather than science. They use it, but they don't really understand how it works and they surround it with a lot of hokum. Additionally/alternatively, having the tech doesn't stop them from living in ways we would consider primitive. For example, the Yuat'ja of Predator have interstellar travel, energy blasters and personal invisibility shields, but their culture is fundamentally Stone Age and revolves around hunting other creatures for social status, with great emphasis on melee combat due to it being "more honorable".

These sound far more dangerous in a technologically (or arcanotechnologically) advanced setting.
Like I've said, the Dworg are basically this setting's version of the Scro from Spelljammer, whose defining concept was "what if orcs got sick of being the punching bag for more civilized races, got off their butts, ditched their backwards culture that was holding them back, and picked themselves up to meet the other races as equals?"

Do they have the "classic" insect-people hive-ish traits? "Caste" makes it sound like that might be the case. If so, then perhaps the different forms are "hatched" that way to fill different roles.

Or maybe that's too spot-on the common trope.

I think I like the idea of it being different philosophies that they're choosing to follow, and individuals are having germ-line modifications made to themselves so that they also pass them along to their offspring, making this a divergent species with many subspecies, that which aren't all inter-fertile between the extremes. Gives them a source of diversity and internal conflict that's somewhat counter to trope for insect-people, and a way to give players more choices in the game.
No, kixians are not a "hive race". There are no queens - males and females pair up, produce young and rear them with extended family units called packs, and there's no "hivemind" modifying each individual to be a tool in the overall society.

How about just "Dragon Kings"... and "The Great Dragon King, Sovereign of the Stars, Almighty of Ages, Most Infinite Majesty" for the foremost of their number. :smallbiggrin: (I hope you'll forgive me the liberty of using that name for them in the rest of this post for the sake of brevity.)

Also, I can see them promoting the idea that right order, respect and loyalty, and each person knowing their proper place in the world, leads to prosperity and harmony for all. They (and their followers, all educated to believe) would insist that a Tanuki is happiest and best as a technoalchemist, because that is their proper role as decreed by the heavenly mandates, or some such. Lather rinse repeat for each of the the "proper place" of each "assimilated" species under their rule.

Perhaps at this point the Dragon Kings, or the Great Dragon King (etc etc) specifically, are so powerful and "enlightened", and/or the reverence that most of their subjects grant them so numerous and overwhelming, that it serves as a fount of divine spellcasting.
We settled on Aurians for a reason, but that's certainl a valid name. :P

And yes, that's exactly what I was thinking; it's the whole reason why I began to cotton onto the idea of making the Aurians an "Oriental Adventures add-in" to the setting.

At the very least, they could be Patrons for Celestial Pact Warlocks, I agree.

Basically, I'm thinking that the Dragon Kings are based on the different Imperial Dragons, which are Asian-based dragons, from Pathfinder. Depending on how that turns out, that might effect their impact as "living gods".

I think I like the idea of both being born from the blood of the Dragon Kings, in a totally alchemical process, rather than being modified humans. If these are to be the most trusted and loyal servants, blessed to stand in the very presence of the Dragon Kings, then I doubt the Dragon Kings would sully that with "low blood" from humans.

I'd imagine that the vassal species below almost never see, hear, or encounter the Dragon Kings directly.
I do agree that "produced from the aether" (or at least dragon blood) makes more sense given their exalted role and the Dragon Kings' egos. Doesn't necessarily mean they didn't pilfer the foundational mechanics/lore from the Clan-Mothers and the Couatls, of course, but still.

And most definitely agree.

I like this as a way to fit in all sorts of "beast people" species in a "space fantasy" appropriate way, and I'm in favor of basing their "proper role" in the Empire on their mythical traits as you did with the Tanuki. Not weak, IMO.
I don't want to try and push the race envelop too large, at least not early on, but there's actually a fair array of different beastly yokai in Japan, so there's lot more ground for fitting in beast-folk races as part of the Aurians than any other way.

I mean, could you see a race based off of the Mares of Diomedes working as a failed soldier-slave race from before the Oni were created?

Maybe instead of discarding them, the Dragon Kings use them as a sort of "fire and forget" weapon, unleashing them on worlds they want neutralized but don't want to bother with administrating or "enlightening" after knocking out whatever is bothering them there. "It's useless to us, a nuisance really... just let the Oni have it", with the added implied threat of unleashed terror-troops that gives the Kings to lend weight to their words when dealing with recalcitrant worlds and would-be enemies.

Or perhaps the Tragger, with their respect for might, take in small family-bands of Oni to supplement their own strength.

Or perhaps the Dworg see them as wasted potential and have been taking them in and integrating them.
What I mean is that, for the most part, oni have been phased out of the official army. You're right, they do use them as fire and forget weapons too, but the breeding programs have stopped, oni have been taken from their ranks (or butchered if deemed too rebellious)... it's obvious that they're the oucasts of the empire now, and the ryujin are the new hotness.

Though, yes, traggen and dworg are both willing to accept their "cousins" into their bands.

Another possible spot for some divine spellcasting, as they're warrior-mystics trying to carry on the mission of their lost progenitors -- progenitors who might serve as a focus for a variation of ancestor "worship".
I actually first conceived of the Quetzalii as more or less "a race of Space Paladins", so, yeah, the warrior-mystic thing definitely fits. :P

I had not read this when I made my earlier suggestions. Perhaps my idea of a "rooted" individual getting up and going back out into the galaxy can be combined with the idea of permanently-rooted individuals and the seed/womb pods. Given that this is space fantasy, perhaps a powerful-enough ancient can spawn a mobile "node" that's much like a normal individual, but with a mental/soul connection that stretches as far as the "seedling" might wander, letting the ancient see the worlds anew.

Hmmm... perhaps tapping into the hidden ley-lines of the galaxy, the ancients can grant spells -- again, not "gods" in the classic sense, but here's a species that would be interested in spreading healing and light to the galaxy, and that has a good source for such already woven into what you've come up with.
You're right, they do work well as the primary "clerical" (or at least theurgical) race in the setting. And that's an interesting idea about the seedlings having mental links to their progenitors that allow them to see the universe anew... actually works well with their big "we are all interconnected" philosophy, yes?

Mary Mary, quite contrary, how does your garden grow... :smalleek:
I... do not follow what you're saying here at all.

The presence of the Clan-Mothers gets around a lot of the normal objections to monogender asexually-reproducing intelligent species. The Clan-Mothers can surely tweak the genes of their daughters to grant them improvement, variation, and novel traits.

I really don't have a problem with them being lusty and hedonistic, since they've a culture of seeking entertainment, stories, and the "biggest" life possible, with no familial complications or implications to get in the way. What I can't see them ever being is servile or submissive to anyone other than a Clan-Mother.
That's right. Add in that they can also mate with outsider races to produce "genetically varied but still pure" vanadirans, Asari-style, and the usual genetic deadlock isn't a problem here.

Point... I'm not entirely sure if there's any reason to preserve the "often end up as bodyguards" thing - it was essentially born out of my vision of them as akin to Asari, who in Mass Effect are known to spend their Maiden stage as strippers, mercs and assassins.

Much discussed already, I really like these guys, with their "artificial intellect" pets and their love of arcanotech, their very private and reserved natures, their "encounter" suits, their preference for colder environments, their potentially diverse culture due to the nature of the fleets, being one of the more "normal" cultures compared to the rest, being gender-egalitarian monotremes, etc. If I were playing in this setting, this is the first species I'd use for a character, I think.

Something I just thought of for them you could "borrow", that I used for a species in my "medium-hardness" SF setting -- maybe they need to wear breath masks when around others because in what most species consider a normal atmosphere, they can suffer from hyperoxia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperoxia), since they long ago adapted to first the thinning oxygen content of their dying world, and then to a more efficient lower oxygen environment in their ships, and now an earth-standard oxygen content can literally poison them with too much of a good thing.
Hm... nah, I think not. Offers potential for rule complications; I think we'll stick with the established "showing your face is something you do only in intimate situations" modesty rule. Preserves the mystique, doesn't force players into potential complications.

Hmmm... I need more to go on here.
When I have something more for these guys, I'll share it. They were basically Dark Templar Protoss with a little Kasatha thrown in. Maybe they can end up being pruned, I don't know yet.

I figured that the Couatl, the ancestors of the Clan-Mothers, and the ancestors of the Aurian "Dragon Kings" were three different species, who all survived the Fall of the old world and the Dark Times -- sorry if I implied otherwise.

As the plant-people are dedicated to Peace (as a whole), I can see them adopting the name "Paxians" so long ago that only the most ancient trees, almost entire groves unto themselves, have any idea what they were called before.
Ah, sorry, I just wasn't sure that it was clear.

And yeah, I really like "Paxians" (or "Paxa" for singular, maybe?) as a name much better.

Max_Killjoy

2017-06-27, 08:27 AM

I... do not follow what you're saying here at all.

Snapperjaws are utterly contrary to the general Paxian philosophy, and when thinking about contrary plants, the old nursery rhyme popped into my head. I was imagining that line scrawled in blood on the wall of a ship found dead in space...

That's right. Add in that they can also mate with outsider races to produce "genetically varied but still pure" vanadirans, Asari-style, and the usual genetic deadlock isn't a problem here.

Point... I'm not entirely sure if there's any reason to preserve the "often end up as bodyguards" thing - it was essentially born out of my vision of them as akin to Asari, who in Mass Effect are known to spend their Maiden stage as strippers, mercs and assassins.

I'm thinking it's just the Clan-Mothers who can do that, yes?

On the body-guard and stripper thing... that might just be an oversimplification in popular culture of the time, based on Felinoids gravitating to the most exiting, daring, gallant, over-the-top jobs they can get.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-27, 10:21 AM

Snapperjaws are utterly contrary to the general Paxian philosophy, and when thinking about contrary plants, the old nursery rhyme popped into my head. I was imagining that line scrawled in blood on the wall of a ship found dead in space...
Ah, I see. It's just that the comment looked like the Snapperjaws actually spooked you a little.

I'm thinking it's just the Clan-Mothers who can do that, yes?
Actually, no, the ability to mate with other species Asari-style is something possessed by the common Vanadirans - I brought it up in my recent "crossbreeding" post on this page or the one before, not sure. Theoretically the Clan-Mothers could do it to, but becoming the consort to one would be a pretty epic quest - at least as epic as one to woo an elder dragon in normal D&D, and probably more so.

On the body-guard and stripper thing... that might just be an oversimplification in popular culture of the time, based on Felinoids gravitating to the most exiting, daring, gallant, over-the-top jobs they can get.
Huh, that actually makes a lot of sense.

Max_Killjoy

2017-06-27, 11:32 AM

Actually, no, the ability to mate with other species Asari-style is something possessed by the common Vanadirans - I brought it up in my recent "crossbreeding" post on this page or the one before, not sure. Theoretically the Clan-Mothers could do it to, but becoming the consort to one would be a pretty epic quest - at least as epic as one to woo an elder dragon in normal D&D, and probably more so.

OK, I misinterpreted something and thought the Clan-Mothers had a reproductive monopoly.

Think I found the post you're referring to -- http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22118228&postcount=127

On the subject of interbreeding, if this were a science fiction setting (as opposed to space fantasy) I'd wonder if the general interfertility of the different species pointed to some genetic meddling by the "lost empire" in the deep past. For the sort of setting I think you're going for, it doesn't matter as much, crossbreeding is just a thing that happens in many fantasy settings, and if it fits what you want, go for it.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-27, 03:22 PM

OK, I misinterpreted something and thought the Clan-Mothers had a reproductive monopoly.

Think I found the post you're referring to -- http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22118228&postcount=127

On the subject of interbreeding, if this were a science fiction setting (as opposed to space fantasy) I'd wonder if the general interfertility of the different species pointed to some genetic meddling by the "lost empire" in the deep past. For the sort of setting I think you're going for, it doesn't matter as much, crossbreeding is just a thing that happens in many fantasy settings, and if it fits what you want, go for it.

For vanadiran breeding, this how it works in a nutshell:

The Clan-Mothers produce the vast majority of new vanadirans - I personally like the mental image that, in contrast to the cold, mechanical "vats of goo" type approach of the Aurians, Clan-Mothers literally give birth to their daughters, but I won't stick to that if it's too controversial.

However, vanadirans are not "asexual" in the "no sexual desire" sense - they are monosexual, because they have no ability to pass on male sex chromosones of their own species. That means they feel sexual desire. Which means they get horny. There's no shame in this in vanadiran culture, it's just natural. It does mean that the sexual norm for their species kind of amounts to lesbian sister/sister incest, but hey, it's not like it's hurting anyone. They do find it confusing how popular same-clan vanadiran porn can be in the wider galaxy, though.

So, when a vanadiran goes out into the galaxy, she's not a blushing, naive little virgin. She knows what sex is, she's not afraid of it, and she's probably had it before. And sometimes, when there's no other vanadirans around, she gets in the mood, and aliens... well, a lot of them don't look too bad. Exotic, that's the word.

Of course, since all the plumbing works fine, there's just normally nobody around to use it, sometimes... accidents happen.

It's pretty common for traveling vanadirans to return to the homeworlds after having put on a great deal of weight, only to then leave a few months later back to their old selves and with a new kitten crawling around in the clan's creche. Or just show up with one or more kittens in tow.

There's no real stigma to this, although it does invite some good-natured teasing. Indeed, pregnant vanadirans are something of minor celebrities amongst their kind, and it's not unheard of for travelers to have set out with some ambiguous goal of having a kitten or two of their own.

Max_Killjoy

2017-06-27, 07:16 PM

For vanadiran breeding, this how it works in a nutshell:

The Clan-Mothers produce the vast majority of new vanadirans - I personally like the mental image that, in contrast to the cold, mechanical "vats of goo" type approach of the Aurians, Clan-Mothers literally give birth to their daughters, but I won't stick to that if it's too controversial.

However, vanadirans are not "asexual" in the "no sexual desire" sense - they are monosexual, because they have no ability to pass on male sex chromosones of their own species. That means they feel sexual desire. Which means they get horny. There's no shame in this in vanadiran culture, it's just natural. It does mean that the sexual norm for their species kind of amounts to lesbian sister/sister incest, but hey, it's not like it's hurting anyone. They do find it confusing how popular same-clan vanadiran porn can be in the wider galaxy, though.

So, when a vanadiran goes out into the galaxy, she's not a blushing, naive little virgin. She knows what sex is, she's not afraid of it, and she's probably had it before. And sometimes, when there's no other vanadirans around, she gets in the mood, and aliens... well, a lot of them don't look too bad. Exotic, that's the word.

Of course, since all the plumbing works fine, there's just normally nobody around to use it, sometimes... accidents happen.

It's pretty common for traveling vanadirans to return to the homeworlds after having put on a great deal of weight, only to then leave a few months later back to their old selves and with a new kitten crawling around in the clan's creche. Or just show up with one or more kittens in tow.

There's no real stigma to this, although it does invite some good-natured teasing. Indeed, pregnant vanadirans are something of minor celebrities amongst their kind, and it's not unheard of for travelers to have set out with some ambiguous goal of having a kitten or two of their own.

Other than the fertility, that's in line with the impression I had of them -- that to them, wanting something is enough to justify trying to get it (although justifying particular means might be a different story), and that they're a culture with very few taboos and utilitarian morality. When I used the word "asexual", it was in the reproductive sense (the older sense that's been in biology for a very long time).

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-27, 11:31 PM

It's cool; I just wanted to clear up what I have planned for them in terms of bringing forth new generations.

Irony is, whilst I know what the Couatls and the Aurians look like, I don't have the faintest clue what the Clan-Mothers should look like. Something feline, and yet with a trace of dragon. Any suggestions?

Aside from that... well, I really don't know where to go from here. I wonder what happened to the Tiefling, this is the longest he's gone without speaking so far...

Max_Killjoy

2017-06-28, 10:54 AM

Irony is, whilst I know what the Couatls and the Aurians look like, I don't have the faintest clue what the Clan-Mothers should look like. Something feline, and yet with a trace of dragon. Any suggestions?

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/d2/cc/6d/d2cc6d7513117d1403e96115a98fa218.jpg

OK... so far image searches are coming back with a lot of... chaff. Yes, let's be generous and call it "chaff".

You're thinking humanoid, still, for the Clan-Mothers, or something a bit further afield?

Aside from that... well, I really don't know where to go from here. I wonder what happened to the Tiefling, this is the longest he's gone without speaking so far...

Yeah, I was just wondering why everyone else disappeared.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-28, 01:54 PM

Honestly? I was thinking something more feral or beast-like. More like a feline equivalent of Falkor, or the 4e Orium & Cobalt Dragons (who frankly have a really "big cat" look to them anyway) if they had fur, you know?

It's weird, really - he's been the only stable poster here for ages, and then, after you join in, he suddenly takes off. I'm hoping it's just real life in the way.

Lord Raziere

2017-06-28, 01:59 PM

I dunno where everyone else went, but I'm back now.

uh, yeah, thanks for pointing out that genetic engineering thing to make things unpredictable, Max for the whiptail lizard race.

as for the Asari style race here....well Asari style reproduction does avoid the lack of genetic diversity problem. but lets see....what are the actual problems such a society? would it really be as utopian as one would think? lets see.

well since they're diplomats and whatnot, and thus constantly trying to Not Be war, they're not At War. But here is the thing: just because you don't have war doesn't mean there isn't problems. You still need an economy, you need to make deals, and your race is good at making them and be tricksy and lying and untrustworthy and what not and so on. so it should be no surprise that this Asarai-like race are hardcore capitalists. lets call these Asarans. they'd just be constantly bombarding people with ads and propaganda through their tv, wanting them to buy everything. now since actually restricting trade would lead to conflict and violence and people being labelled criminals and dying, everything is legal. now combine this with promiscuity and free love and prostitution is completely legal and a big business, if not outright sex slave trade. drugs of all sorts are legally available and distributed about. the entire civilization of the Asarans becomes real decadent and hedonistic.

but of course, problems arise from this. people on drug fueled rampages not in their right minds kill people or have accidents on the road, it happens. people lose money from constantly gambling, fueling their drug addiction and working low-paying jobs that the Asarans pay as little as possible on to save money. the upper crust of society is corrupt and greedy and the lower rungs of society is impulsive and constantly looking for the next pleasurable thing while just trying to survive. the entire civilization is one big Las Vegas, worse, there are lot of con artists and scammers out there. Snake oil salesmen peddling false cures, people selling shoddy or fake goods and equipment and people get screwed out of their money. Celebrities get shown, trotted out then thrown away once their 15 minutes of fame are up. the police are overwhelmed by constant crimes committed in impulsive moments by the poor that its hard for them to investigate the ones the rich are committing in secret as a part of their well-tuned plans- assuming that your one of the people who can pay for the police to enforce the law for you at all, what, did you think that was free?

thus the Asarans spread through the galaxy through decadence, advertising, catering to every desire no matter how sick and twisted and exploiting everything they can to get more money. while sure they're not at war, that just means the conflict is internal. sure there is opportunity to Asaran lesbian lovin', but only if you have the money and are okay with the soulless hedonism of it all.sure everyone comes to the Asarans, but only because they got all the money and know how to sell everything. there is good reasons why you should suspect that they're lying cheating jerks, and of course all the corporations are competing against each other using subterfuge to get more money and employ expendable mercenaries to help them carry out such covert high risk missions.

in short: an Asari style race would actually lead to a Shadowrun verging on anarcho-capitalism. hey still technically better than the oppressive whiptail lizard lesbians who are constantly at war right?

Max_Killjoy

2017-06-28, 03:18 PM

Honestly? I was thinking something more feral or beast-like. More like a feline equivalent of Falkor, or the 4e Orium & Cobalt Dragons (who frankly have a really "big cat" look to them anyway) if they had fur, you know?

Start with something like a wemic.
http://www.gemmaline.com/races/wemic.gif

Maybe play with the number of limbs and body shape:
http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140719004606/phaeselis/images/7/7d/Aurumvorax.jpg

Make the face and head more wilden-like:
http://dungeonsmaster.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/RacesWildenFemale.png

Mix in some elements like a different number of eyes or saurian feet/hands or facial scales or something.

Mongobear

2017-06-28, 04:10 PM

Are you familiar at all with the Warhammer 40k universe?

TL;DR It is a futuristic setting taking place in the Year 40000, with Earth-based Humans expanding out into space, encountering many types of alien races, and everyone basically going to war with everyone else.

There are close to a dozen different races/factions last time I checked in on the setting, and a lot of them could be borrowed from/altered to fit your races.

Imperium of Man - could easily be re-fluffed as your Asian dragonborn group, Many sub-factions with similar tech/weaponry but each homeworld has a small bit of their own flavor to differentiate them from each other.

Imperial Guard - Basically the US Armed Forces 40000 years from now. Think Starship Troopers' marines, with a **** ton of tanks and other armored vehicles. Literally their best tactic is "pile enough bodies on the enemy and they will die eventually."

Eldar - Literally highly technological Space Elves. They are one of the most ancient races, being Immortal as long as they get their 'spirit stones' back to their homeworld. Excel at lightning attacks due to their frail frames, and has a caste based society with many different warrior groups praised by their society that excel at different forms of combat. The 'necromancy' fluff is even there as well, since they manipulate soul energies to extend their lives, and create artificial bodies to guard their powerful soul mages.

Dark Eldar - Space Drow. Twisted and corrupted Eldar that raid, enslave, and torture their victims out of sheer delight of inflicting pain. Also uses a ton of poisoned weapons, and mutated beasts to hunt their pray.

Tau - Frail Humanoids with a hyper-advanced technology. They have foot soldiers, but the majority of their warriors enter a fight in mecha suits similar to Gundams (if you know what those are) Their weapons are much more stable than Humanities, and capable of doing similar damage from longer range or without the risk of catastrophic failure. Politically, hey don't deliberately wish to fight anyone, but they do require you to join their empire willingly to be left alone, "for the greater good" have many sub-races and other cultures that have joined their side, including some of Humanity.

Necrons - Undead Robots in Space. Made of some sort of ancient metal capable of regenerating itself from even the deadliest of wounds. Slow silent and methodical, only a few of their highest ranking leaders are capable of communication, which they usually don't. Their weapons fire a highly focused beam of radiation with literally de-atomizes their victims. Created by uber powerful "Space Gods" known as the C'tan which are capable of devouring entire star systems in a short time.

Orks - Big dumb oafs, in space. Exactly what you'd think of when you hear Orcs, but capable on interstellar travel by strapping big rockets to boulders and launching themselves towards a bright shiny star. The bigger the Orc, the more minions they have, and quite literally they follow the big guy into battle. Many of their weapons and technology is scavenged from battlefields and repurposed or duct-taped together to work... somehow.

Tyranids - If StarCraft's Zerg, Aliens' Xenomorphs, and Starship Troopers Bugs mixed DN and had a baby. They don't have an agenda other than "Eat and Move on" Nobody knows what they want or where they're from, but everyone knows when they show up, worlds are eaten.

Squats - Not much is known about them, they haven't been officially mentioned since the 80s, but they were basically Space Dwarves. A lot of their weaponry was similar to that of Humanity, and they may have even been from Earth, but a lot of info has been lost.

The Inquisition - A subgroup of the Imperium of Man tasked with hunting down Heretics, Rogue Mages, and Daemonic tainted traitors. They all have their own specialized weaponry and tactics, each focused to be the best at killing their main targets.

Chaos/Daemons - Traitors to the Imperium of Man, sworn to the service of the 4 Gods of Chaos. Formerly devout followers of the Imperium of Man, now horribly mutated and depraved raiders, murderers, and warmongers bent on destroying everything they once fought to protect. They're allied ith Demonic minions of their gods, which manifest by possession and summoning rituals to spread terror throughout the universe, each focuses on a type of Sin or method of punishment taken to the extreme.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-28, 06:45 PM

I maybe should rename this thread and redo the first post, given that there's a pretty solid band of races to derive from already.

Now, from here, I was thinking maybe we could discuss either the Vanadirans or the Aurian Empire in more detail; which would you prefer, Killjoy?

I actually have been doing some thoughts on expanding both the races present amongst the Aurians - adhering to a plan of sticking to Japanese and, if anyone knows of any, Chinese mythological beasts; for example, the Imori - and on further refining their niches, if that helps...

Also, links for Pathfinder's Imperial Dragons, which are important to both the Aurian God-Emperors and the Ryujin:
http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Imperial_dragon
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary3/dragon.html

@Lord Raziere
I take it you haven't quite followed along with the development of the Vanadirans? I don't blame you if that's so, this thread has gotten pretty long.

@Mongobear
I'm familiar with it, yes.

Mongobear

2017-06-28, 07:00 PM

@Mongobear
I'm familiar with it, yes.

I skipped over a lot of the discussion just because of the sheer amount of wordage, but what I was getting at with bringing up WH40k was to maybe borrow some societal/political/technological aspects from them for your own races.

Aelfar for Eldar, Tau or Imperium for the Asian Dragon Empire guys, Orks for the big krogan type guys, etc.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-28, 08:04 PM

I skipped over a lot of the discussion just because of the sheer amount of wordage, but what I was getting at with bringing up WH40k was to maybe borrow some societal/political/technological aspects from them for your own races.

Aelfar for Eldar, Tau or Imperium for the Asian Dragon Empire guys, Orks for the big krogan type guys, etc.

As a matter of fact, the T'au (as they're called now) and their "elightened manifest destinied tyranny" with its Asiatic trappings was a huge influence on the Aurian Empire.

In fact... allow me to share my thoughts on the Aurian Empire lest I lose them entirely...

Thought the first: in Chinese mythology, and to a lesser extent Japanese (I think), the gods tended to actually rely on alchemical concoctions or magical tokens to preserve their own immortalities. What if the God-Emperor(s) actually can't sustain themselves eternally, and rely on a special alchemical concoction to live? This would further explain the importance of keeping the tanuki dependent on the Empire to survive as a people, especially if the necessary ingredients only grow on the tanuki homeworlds and/or only tanuki can mix the formula.

Thought the second: The Ryujin and the Ki'rinii are, in my mind's eye, the most important of all the vassal races. Like... picture the Aurian Empire as being akin to the Jade Empire (or whatever it's called) in Exalted: the Aurian(s) are the Scarlet Dragon Empress, but the Ryujin and the Ki'rinii are analogous to the Dragon-Blooded Exalted. They have different positions and responsibilities, but they are as close as you can get to the top of the social pyramid when there's somebody else at the peak.

From here, it just devolves into a stream of random ideas about the various aurian vassal races, so I'll just let my fingers talk as they will, lest I forget...

Tanuki we seem to have a solid identity for as the major supplies of alchemy, medicine and healing.

Kitsunes... not sure entirely what to do with these. Maybe the majority of the race is involved in running the "Celestial Beaucracy", but, borrowing a little Western fox symbolism, there's also a very high percentage of rogues, renegades and rebels in their ranks?

Gyokutoans (http://yokai.com/gyokuto/) - well, those who remain under the empire's thumb - are probably the empire's breadbasket. Their role in life is to farm; an empire needs food and drink to survive, after all.

Imori (http://yokai.com/imori/), envisioned here as more of a man-sized (or at least Small sized) lizardfolk variant, I'm thinking are a samurai-inspired culture who mostly serve as the Empire's Bushi - that is, the comparatively expendable foot-soldiers being directed by the more important Ryujin generals. One thought to help make them unique is to play with the idea of geckos regenerating their tails; Imori may not necessarily grow their tails incessantly, but a long tail is a source of pride, and chopping it off is used either as a formal punishment, to settle duels, or both. One could play around with the genders a little here. For example, like real lizards, it's the females who are bigger, so they tend to be the dominant warriors. Or there's one idea I saw elsewhere, but I'm pretty sure it can't be used here.

Hmm... I once brought up the Mares of Diomedes - savage, flesh-eating mares of unnatural strength, speed and vitality from Greco-Romanic Mythology. In an ordinary setting, I could easily see these as as a matriarchal/amazonian race that was created by a mad wizard who wanted to use them as super soldiers, mixing horse and ogre (or at least orc) with a dash of wolf. I would probably say that they can't fit the "Oriental" theme of the Aurians... but, there is a yokai, Mezu (http://yokai.com/mezu/), who appears as a horse-headed oni. Maybe the two can blend together somehow? I'd see these carnivorous mare amazons as either a replacement for oni, or another failed soldier race, like the oni.

Speaking of potentially rebellious vassals, what if the Hakutaku (http://yokai.com/hakutaku/) are some sort of sagely, multi-eyed minotaur-esque people (human-faced, ox-faced, I can go either way) who may in fact be secretly seeking to rebel against the Empire, exploiting their position as teachers and occultic scholars?

When it comes to Mujina (http://yokai.com/mujina/)... well, there's a lot of synchronicity between badgers and dwarves, so maybe they fill a similar "miners and metal workers" niche akin to the dwarves?

Given the incredible speed associated with the Itachi (http://yokai.com/itachi/), I can easily see them as messengers, couriers and scouts.

Not sure what to do with the Kawauso (http://yokai.com/kawauso/)... maybe exploit the "otters are playful" thing and they're mostly seen as entertainers?

Jorogumo (http://yokai.com/jorougumo/) and/or Tsuchigumo (http://yokai.com/tsuchigumo/)... I don't know, really I don't. I can kind of see the former as essentially a race of kunoichi, though.

Maybe is best to avoid the Bakeneko (http://yokai.com/bakeneko/), Nekomata (http://yokai.com/nekomata/), and Kasha (http://yokai.com/kasha/), given we have amazon catgirls in the form of Vanadirans...

Max_Killjoy

2017-06-28, 08:38 PM

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-29, 12:51 AM

Heck, since the vanadiran already went in a different direction, I'd be tempted to keep this in the ready-file and adapt it for a different culture when an appropriate species comes up. Might be just a tad over the top, and I'd make this one side of them, with the other side being that they do produce a lot of master negotiators and arbitrators who can help you work out a deal when the alternative is another 10 years of war, or your company and another company suing each other back and forth until you're both bankrupt.

Oh, I see your point there. Not entirely sure it'll come up, but it is definitely an interesting - and arguably more realistic - spin on the Asari. Although admittedly it was pretty obvious in ME2 and 3 that they were really a bunch of crooks who liked to think of themselves as being better.

So, your thoughts on the Aurian stuff I posted?

Lord Raziere

2017-06-29, 01:55 AM

Heck, since the vanadiran already went in a different direction, I'd be tempted to keep this in the ready-file and adapt it for a different culture when an appropriate species comes up. Might be just a tad over the top, and I'd make this one side of them, with the other side being that they do produce a lot of master negotiators and arbitrators who can help you work out a deal when the alternative is another 10 years of war, or your company and another company suing each other back and forth until you're both bankrupt.

Sure, whatever makes it fun for you. I just thought it was good way to interpret the usual trope of a diplomat lesbian species or whatever. I imagine there are probably pockets of people within that society who try be kinder and good and such, they're just not in positions of power.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-29, 10:12 PM

So, just trying to bump this, I really don't know where everyone's gone...

Much as I want feedback on the stuff I posted before, here's a Vanadiran question that's been bugging me for weeks:

What are we going to make them look like?

Personally, I was hoping to go with a more "C'tarl-C'tarl" inspired sort of look; keeps them distinct from the "animals with humanoid body-frames" of the Aurian Vassals and it fits that 80s cheeze better. Besides, Aisha Clan-Clan was a pretty big inspiration in coming up with the race as a whole, and Thundercats was... well, not particularly appealing artwork for the most part.

Max_Killjoy

2017-06-30, 12:00 AM

I'm going to respond to your post about the Aurians and their servant species tomorrow, haven't been able to really look at it today.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-06-30, 08:51 PM

Looking forward to hearing from you, Killjoy, though anyone who wants to comment on them is welcome to do so.

I wonder why I get so much more in the way of commentary here than I have for either of my threads actually placed in the World Homebrewing forum...

Honest Tiefling

2017-07-01, 03:47 PM

Much as I want feedback on the stuff I posted before, here's a Vanadiran question that's been bugging me for weeks:

What are we going to make them look like?

Personally, I was hoping to go with a more "C'tarl-C'tarl" inspired sort of look; keeps them distinct from the "animals with humanoid body-frames" of the Aurian Vassals and it fits that 80s cheeze better. Besides, Aisha Clan-Clan was a pretty big inspiration in coming up with the race as a whole, and Thundercats was... well, not particularly appealing artwork for the most part.

I'm back! Sorry about not posting, but some idiot injured their ankle, and that idiot was me.

As for the lesbian diplomat species...I'd lean to no. I really like the idea of a Vanadiran with a bright red mohawk smashing beer cans against her head while shooting everything she doesn't like. Very 80's to me, but I might be a little biased due to the Heavy Metal film. The idea of automatically linking the feminine with feelings is sorta a trope I think needs to die. That, and the Lotusians exist, so another diplomatic species would need a bit more to distinguish the two.

Problem is, women don't pass on the sex determining chromosome, at least not in mammals. However, they are cat-dragon people, so maybe their sex chromosomes work differently. They reproduce with anything else via space magic, I would just give them the X/0 system that some mammals use. The Vanadiran passes on a X chromosome, and since the space magic doesn't confer much genetic material of the father (since the result was usually a Vanadiran, if I remember correctly), any sex chromosome potentially passed on is essentially rejected, resulting in a X0, which is female for the Vanadirans. Male might be XY, since there was the idea that the male sex chromosome was lost.

Or the Vanadiran body simply registers any male sex chromosome as a biological threat, and tries to terminate the pregnancy before it can implant in the uterus, or that the uterus just plains reject that. That's probably not scientifically sound, but I could see an argument that the Clan-Mothers didn't exactly want males returning and put in a system to prevent their birth.

I'd avoid the incest angle, since these ladies are supposed to be very family oriented. They could just have contact with other clans to avoid this, since Clan Mothers might be jealous, but that doesn't prevent them from trying to hook up their widdle babies and prying into their relationships. Besides, having your daugther boink someone from the neighboring clan is a good way to get all of the juicy gossip!

As for the issue of the Clan Mothers giving direct birth...They're telepathic epic level bad***es. I don't really think the trope of 'bare foot and pregnant' applies since they can crush lesser species with their minds without lifting a paw. But perhaps honored Vanadirans are allowed to carry a pregnancy to term.

Personally, I guess I viewed them as a bit more bestial. Muscular (Aisha isn't muscular), amazonian women with digitigrade legs, a tail and more feline ears. Probably slitt pupils, even if larger cats often have round pupils. Probably furred, or maybe having them have more hair than human woman, where the hair on their head blends into hair on their shoulders, neck and upper back. Fangs would be adorable and are a must. Even if they don't have claws, I could see them having thicker fingernails. Obviously, I am quite mistaken over all, so that's just how I saw them.

However, why not make them a funky color? I am pretty sure that fits the genre. They could be red/pink/purple for instance. (Okay, I find the idea of amazonian women in girly colors, so sue me.) Spots might be a cute homage to the idea of leopard print that was so popular. Perhaps they often use Mohawks and other distinctive hair styles. I could also see them having a tapteum, because I love the image of someone shining a flashlight in the dark and seeing a bunch of eyes of grinning amazonian cat-women that think that a night on the town involves incendiaries...

I feel like some race needs four arms. I could see this being put onto a Traggen-derived race, or these guys if you need them to be more distinct. Dragons usually have 6 limbs, so it might be an idea.

I think we actually discussed this and you haven't seen it yet, but just in case:

The current plan I have is that, one, Theurge Wizards, Favored Soul Sorcerers and Celestial Warlocks are a thing in this setting. This, alongside Alchemist Artificers, provides a general source of healing and other restoratives. I can't recall if I decided to add Clerics & Druids in as well or if the aforementioned arcano-divinists are replacing them entirely. Presuming we go with both, Cleric/Druid characters are race restricted.

Clerics can be either Vanadirans (Life, Tempest, War), Paxians (Life, Light, Knowledge, Nature), or Ki'rinii (Light, Knowledge, War).

Druids can only be Paxians and only take the Circle of the Land.

As someone who enjoys clerics/druids, you did mention the leyline idea for them in that they are basically nature-wizards. I don't think the current set up is bad, but a little restrictive. If the Oni were once a part of the Aurian empire, maybe they could have a corrupt form of leyline magic that they resorted to once their patrons booted them out and stopped allowing them to have warlock or sorcerers power. I guess I also like the idea of the rabbit-folk having their own pantheon of ancestor spirits or rituals that the Aurian empire is trying to crush.

For druids...I think Paxian only makes sense, but I would add in the Circle of the Moon, Shepard, and Twilight. Moon could be refluffed as transforming the body into different plant creatures, not actual animals. A Paxian suddenly becoming a massive Treant makes sense to me. Shepard could be reluffed as a psychic thing, bonding with allies and improving them via psychic powers or the leyline magic. (since the spirits summoned don't actually do anything but make an aura). I'd just replace their summoning lists with plant creatures by saying 'that's not a bear, it's a plant creature that resembles a bear'.

And the circle of Twilight drains the life force of the fleshy ones and summons their spirits back to speak. If the Snapperjaws have any enmity with the Aelfar, I could see plenty of their kind choosing to become evil Twilight druids to drain life and end the unnatural Aelfar.

Through I still think that the Kixians should also be druids, given that they use magic to be in tune with their environment. Otherwise, their stats and their favored classes don't make sense, as they have a wisdom bonus but are wizards, sorcerers or another charisma based spellcasting class.

As for the Lotusians/Snapperjaws, I don't see an issue with the names. Veshy could perhaps be an alternative name, or the real name if you don't like the other ones. For Scavvers, I feel like Scaver with its obvious origin should be a pejorative for the race itself. Some ideas:

Roljero
Rolijir
Rolljuvin
Vollejero
Vollunjer
Jallir

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-07-01, 07:19 PM

I'm back! Sorry about not posting, but some idiot injured their ankle, and that idiot was me.
Hey, it's alright; glad to have you back. And ouch, sorry to hear that.

As for the lesbian diplomat species...I'd lean to no. I really like the idea of a Vanadiran with a bright red mohawk smashing beer cans against her head while shooting everything she doesn't like. Very 80's to me, but I might be a little biased due to the Heavy Metal film. The idea of automatically linking the feminine with feelings is sorta a trope I think needs to die. That, and the Lotusians exist, so another diplomatic species would need a bit more to distinguish the two.
Just to be clear, there was no intention on my part or Killjoy's part on reworking Vanadirans into an Asari-style "lesbian diplomat" race. Killjoy was merely suggesting that Raziere's idea could be used for its own race in the future, although I agree that with both the Vanadirans and the Paxians, it's not exactly a pressing concept.

Problem is, women don't pass on the sex determining chromosome, at least not in mammals. However, they are cat-dragon people, so maybe their sex chromosomes work differently. They reproduce with anything else via space magic, I would just give them the X/0 system that some mammals use. The Vanadiran passes on a X chromosome, and since the space magic doesn't confer much genetic material of the father (since the result was usually a Vanadiran, if I remember correctly), any sex chromosome potentially passed on is essentially rejected, resulting in a X0, which is female for the Vanadirans. Male might be XY, since there was the idea that the male sex chromosome was lost.

Or the Vanadiran body simply registers any male sex chromosome as a biological threat, and tries to terminate the pregnancy before it can implant in the uterus, or that the uterus just plains reject that. That's probably not scientifically sound, but I could see an argument that the Clan-Mothers didn't exactly want males returning and put in a system to prevent their birth.
Honestly, do we need to worry overmuch about the scientific rationale behind something in a setting where you could literally surf the solar winds and have swordfights with a marilith pirate queen on a crumbling castle sinking into the orbit of an exploding planet? Those aren't exactly very scientifically accurate things to do.

I'd avoid the incest angle, since these ladies are supposed to be very family oriented. They could just have contact with other clans to avoid this, since Clan Mothers might be jealous, but that doesn't prevent them from trying to hook up their widdle babies and prying into their relationships. Besides, having your daughter boink someone from the neighboring clan is a good way to get all of the juicy gossip!
Here's the thing, though; since there's nothing harmful about such relationships - vanadirans can't impregnate each other - why would they be taboo? You could just as easily argue that sex with one's clan-members is a healthy act of family bonding, cementing the ties between sisters.

Though I still agree that love affairs between different clans are very much the norm, and help keep the clan feuding and battles from ever getting too out of hand.

As for the issue of the Clan Mothers giving direct birth...They're telepathic epic level bad***es. I don't really think the trope of 'bare foot and pregnant' applies since they can crush lesser species with their minds without lifting a paw. But perhaps honored Vanadirans are allowed to carry a pregnancy to term.
I'm... afraid I don't follow your logic here. I can't figure out if you're arguing for or against the Clan-Mothers to directly give life to their children.

Personally, I guess I viewed them as a bit more bestial. Muscular (Aisha isn't muscular), amazonian women with digitigrade legs, a tail and more feline ears. Probably slitt pupils, even if larger cats often have round pupils. Probably furred, or maybe having them have more hair than human woman, where the hair on their head blends into hair on their shoulders, neck and upper back. Fangs would be adorable and are a must. Even if they don't have claws, I could see them having thicker fingernails. Obviously, I am quite mistaken over all, so that's just how I saw them.
That's... pretty much exactly what I was saying in terms of look.

When I said "C'tarl-C'tarl", I basically meant they were more along the lines of humans with bestial traits, rather than full-blown anthropomorphic animals - compare the difference between pretty much any Google Image search for "catgirl" vs Pathfinder's Catfolk.

Digitigrade, paw-footed amazons with cat tails, cat ears, slit pupiled eyes that glow in the dark, fangs and claws is exactly the image I had in mind for them. I like the "big hair" approach, to further cement the "more human-leaning" aspect, because shoulder-manes are unique, and because... well, let's be honest, the 80s were a time of freaking humongous hairdos, weren't they?

However, why not make them a funky color? I am pretty sure that fits the genre. They could be red/pink/purple for instance. (Okay, I find the idea of amazonian women in girly colors, so sue me.) Spots might be a cute homage to the idea of leopard print that was so popular. Perhaps they often use Mohawks and other distinctive hair styles. I could also see them having a tapteum, because I love the image of someone shining a flashlight in the dark and seeing a bunch of eyes of grinning amazonian cat-women that think that a night on the town involves incendiaries...
There is nothing more 80s than the image of an amazon catgirl with a neon leopard-print mohawk. :P Or, in more explicit terms, I like the idea of giving them funky, alien/neon colors, a fondness for mohawks and other "glam rock" inspired hairdos, and a love of spots, stripes and rosettes, either on their fur or on their clothes or both.

I feel like some race needs four arms. I could see this being put onto a Traggen-derived race, or these guys if you need them to be more distinct. Dragons usually have 6 limbs, so it might be an idea.
The voidstalkers were literally envisioned as four-armed mercenaries and assassins with some Predator-esque fixations on the holiness of the arts of killing. Does that count?

As someone who enjoys clerics/druids, you did mention the leyline idea for them in that they are basically nature-wizards. I don't think the current set up is bad, but a little restrictive. If the Oni were once a part of the Aurian empire, maybe they could have a corrupt form of leyline magic that they resorted to once their patrons booted them out and stopped allowing them to have warlock or sorcerers power. I guess I also like the idea of the rabbit-folk having their own pantheon of ancestor spirits or rituals that the Aurian empire is trying to crush.
Priest classes have never been my thing, so I'm really grateful for the opinion of others. Oni... could make sense, they might even be one of the few races in this setting who reach to the other planes* - Warlock heavy, and now that you bring it up, I also like the idea that one of the things marking the Gyokuto as reluctant additions is their attempt to preserve ancestral religions.

*Basically, I have a World Axis-inspired multiverse that this fits into. This is setting is more or less my version of Spelljammer, and much like Spelljammer, its residents focus on material space rather than the worlds beyond. It's not that they don't know that there are other realities, just that what happens in this reality is far more important than what's going on in heaven & hell - just like how Spelljammer doesn't really give two coppers for Planescape.

For druids...I think Paxian only makes sense, but I would add in the Circle of the Moon, Shepard, and Twilight. Moon could be refluffed as transforming the body into different plant creatures, not actual animals. A Paxian suddenly becoming a massive Treant makes sense to me. Shepard could be reluffed as a psychic thing, bonding with allies and improving them via psychic powers or the leyline magic. (since the spirits summoned don't actually do anything but make an aura). I'd just replace their summoning lists with plant creatures by saying 'that's not a bear, it's a plant creature that resembles a bear'.
Well, the "reskin animals as plant monsters" actually shows up in 4e's Underdark for one locale, and I liked that, so these explanations all make sense to me.

And the circle of Twilight drains the life force of the fleshy ones and summons their spirits back to speak. If the Snapperjaws have any enmity with the Aelfar, I could see plenty of their kind choosing to become evil Twilight druids to drain life and end the unnatural Aelfar.
Interesting idea...

Through I still think that the Kixians should also be druids, given that they use magic to be in tune with their environment. Otherwise, their stats and their favored classes don't make sense, as they have a wisdom bonus but are wizards, sorcerers or another charisma based spellcasting class.
Hmm, you have a point. It is more optimal that way, and perhaps their transformations tend to be plant and insect reskins of various animals?

As for the Lotusians/Snapperjaws, I don't see an issue with the names. Veshy could perhaps be an alternative name, or the real name if you don't like the other ones. For Scavvers, I feel like Scaver with its obvious origin should be a pejorative for the race itself. Some ideas:

Roljero
Rolijir
Rolljuvin
Vollejero
Vollunjer
Jallir

Hmm... personally, I like Veshy as the original unified race name, but in modern times, the peaceful ones are called Paxians and the feral ones are called... I don't know, Florans?

Also, Jallir sounds like a great name for the Scavvers to actually be called.

Max_Killjoy

2017-07-01, 07:26 PM

As a matter of fact, the T'au (as they're called now) and their "elightened manifest destinied tyranny" with its Asiatic trappings was a huge influence on the Aurian Empire.

In fact... allow me to share my thoughts on the Aurian Empire lest I lose them entirely...

Thought the first: in Chinese mythology, and to a lesser extent Japanese (I think), the gods tended to actually rely on alchemical concoctions or magical tokens to preserve their own immortalities. What if the God-Emperor(s) actually can't sustain themselves eternally, and rely on a special alchemical concoction to live? This would further explain the importance of keeping the tanuki dependent on the Empire to survive as a people, especially if the necessary ingredients only grow on the tanuki homeworlds and/or only tanuki can mix the formula.

This would mean that the tanuki date back to the lost empire and are at least as old as a species as the Emperors, or that the Emperors weren't immortal at the fall of the lost empire and suborned the tanuki at some point in their own (the Emperors) rise to power.

Musing on this... if the "scavvers" are the arcanotech experts, and the Aelfar are the flesh-shaping experts... what if the Emperors are "soul magic" experts, manipulating the energy of life, and are immortal or at least largely ageless due to that mastery?

Thought the second: The Ryujin and the Ki'rinii are, in my mind's eye, the most important of all the vassal races. Like... picture the Aurian Empire as being akin to the Jade Empire (or whatever it's called) in Exalted: the Aurian(s) are the Scarlet Dragon Empress, but the Ryujin and the Ki'rinii are analogous to the Dragon-Blooded Exalted. They have different positions and responsibilities, but they are as close as you can get to the top of the social pyramid when there's somebody else at the peak.

As we discussed earlier, I think the Ryujin and the Ki'rinii are probably the only two species where an individual has more than a slim chance of ever directly interacting with the Emperors. All other species, it's rare, and would only happen for those rare individuals who did something extraordinary or even epic... accomplishment or error.

From here, it just devolves into a stream of random ideas about the various aurian vassal races, so I'll just let my fingers talk as they will, lest I forget...

Tanuki we seem to have a solid identity for as the major supplies of alchemy, medicine and healing.

Kitsunes... not sure entirely what to do with these. Maybe the majority of the race is involved in running the "Celestial Bureaucracy", but, borrowing a little Western fox symbolism, there's also a very high percentage of rogues, renegades and rebels in their ranks?

I'd probably go with their traditional roles as spies and messengers, rather that bureaucrats, but also, yes, have more than their fair share of double and triple agents, of playing both ends against the middle, of trying to do their duty while also protecting others, etc. Play up the complexity, the duplicity, the helpful/hurtful duality, etc.

Instead, I'd make some members of every species the "functionaries" and bureaucrats of their caste, serving under the Ki'rinii in the Celestial Bureaucracy. Or find another species to slot into that caste of middle managers and gophers. Um... are there gopher yokai? :smallbiggrin: I wonder how long it would take gamers to get that joke. "Wait, the guys all running around with the paperwork and insisting we fill out forms are gophers?" :smallwink:

Gyokutoans (http://yokai.com/gyokuto/) - well, those who remain under the empire's thumb - are probably the empire's breadbasket. Their role in life is to farm; an empire needs food and drink to survive, after all.

From the legend on the page you linked to, I have a thought that maybe... they're where the Emperors draw from to take the "life energy" they use to maintain their own immortality, and work some of their secret magics. In addition to being the source of much massed labor, farming or otherwise. So they're both the farmers, and the farmed.

Imori (http://yokai.com/imori/), envisioned here as more of a man-sized (or at least Small sized) lizardfolk variant, I'm thinking are a samurai-inspired culture who mostly serve as the Empire's Bushi - that is, the comparatively expendable foot-soldiers being directed by the more important Ryujin generals. One thought to help make them unique is to play with the idea of geckos regenerating their tails; Imori may not necessarily grow their tails incessantly, but a long tail is a source of pride, and chopping it off is used either as a formal punishment, to settle duels, or both. One could play around with the genders a little here. For example, like real lizards, it's the females who are bigger, so they tend to be the dominant warriors. Or there's one idea I saw elsewhere, but I'm pretty sure it can't be used here.

Based on the legend of the "gecko soldiers", one could go a darker path. The legendary Imori are the ghosts of warriors turned into geckos, so what if the Imori in your setting are brought back again and again, to keep fighting, facing horrible death after horrible death as soldiers in their masters' galaxy-spanning wars, as long as the "life magic" of the Empire can bring them back from whatever state they're in when their bodies are recovered. To be demoted into their ranks is a threatened punishment, and a few of their number earn promotion into the higher castes...

So the Gyokutoans and the Imori both also serve to lend some darkness to the "dark 80s space fantasy" setting, and illustrate the alien morality and inhumanity of the Emperors and the Empire.

Hmm... I once brought up the Mares of Diomedes - savage, flesh-eating mares of unnatural strength, speed and vitality from Greco-Romanic Mythology. In an ordinary setting, I could easily see these as as a matriarchal/amazonian race that was created by a mad wizard who wanted to use them as super soldiers, mixing horse and ogre (or at least orc) with a dash of wolf. I would probably say that they can't fit the "Oriental" theme of the Aurians... but, there is a yokai, Mezu (http://yokai.com/mezu/), who appears as a horse-headed oni. Maybe the two can blend together somehow? I'd see these carnivorous mare amazons as either a replacement for oni, or another failed soldier race, like the oni.

Perhaps make the horse-headed the gaolers and torturers of the Empire, responsible for overseeing the imprisoned and the enslaved? (I can see the Empire using a lot of slave labor as punishment.) It would fit their legend. They were once a species/culture that had a lot of raiders and slavers, until the Empire conquered them in response to a raid on an Imperial border world.

Speaking of potentially rebellious vassals, what if the Hakutaku (http://yokai.com/hakutaku/) are some sort of sagely, multi-eyed minotaur-esque people (human-faced, ox-faced, I can go either way) who may in fact be secretly seeking to rebel against the Empire, exploiting their position as teachers and occultic scholars?

I can see them being scholars and sages, but don't go overboard with the rebellion thing. I'd probably just have a small number of rebels mixing all the species / castes. Indoctrination and acculturation are strong, and most people in the Empire probably believe that their Dragon Kings / God Emperors are simply enacting proper order. That's why they're willing to toil or die for the greater good. Too many rebels, and the Empire is probably ripe for toppling.

When it comes to Mujina (http://yokai.com/mujina/)... well, there's a lot of synchronicity between badgers and dwarves, so maybe they fill a similar "miners and metal workers" niche akin to the dwarves?

Given that they're somewhat nondescript and overlap with the tanuki otherwise, I agree that you can use this species to fill the "miner caste".

Given the incredible speed associated with the Itachi (http://yokai.com/itachi/), I can easily see them as messengers, couriers and scouts.

Messengers, harbingers, and low-level ambassadorial functionaries.

Not sure what to do with the Kawauso (http://yokai.com/kawauso/)... maybe exploit the "otters are playful" thing and they're mostly seen as entertainers?

Jorogumo (http://yokai.com/jorougumo/) and/or Tsuchigumo (http://yokai.com/tsuchigumo/)... I don't know, really I don't. I can kind of see the former as essentially a race of kunoichi, though.

Maybe is best to avoid the Bakeneko (http://yokai.com/bakeneko/), Nekomata (http://yokai.com/nekomata/), and Kasha (http://yokai.com/kasha/), given we have amazon catgirls in the form of Vanadirans...

The otter-people can be a niche species, with their role in fisheries.

The spider-people... eh, it's getting crowded, and there's nothing about them that screams "give them X role".

Bakeneko, well, yes, you do have the Vanadirans... so what if the Bakeneko are descended from Vanadarian POWs? They don't NEED the Clan-Mothers to reproduce, and they breed "true" with the males of any species they're compatible with, so their descendants could still be around.

Max_Killjoy

2017-07-01, 07:29 PM

For Scavvers, I feel like Scaver with its obvious origin should be a pejorative for the race itself. Some ideas:

Roljero
Rolijir
Rolljuvin
Vollejero
Vollunjer
Jallir

Did you mess around in google translate like I did? :smallwink:

Honest Tiefling

2017-07-01, 07:47 PM

Did you mess around in google translate like I did? :smallwink:

Why would I when a person increadibly handsome and talented person already did the work for me? I just altered the word you found.

Honestly, do we need to worry overmuch about the scientific rationale behind something in a setting where you could literally surf the solar winds and have swordfights with a marilith pirate queen on a crumbling castle sinking into the orbit of an exploding planet? Those aren't exactly very scientifically accurate things to do.

True, but we could just say that through some mechanism, Vanadrans mostly only give birth to female offspring, and not mention sex chromosomes.

Here's the thing, though; since there's nothing harmful about such relationships - vanadirans can't impregnate each other - why would they be taboo? You could just as easily argue that sex with one's clan-members is a healthy act of family bonding, cementing the ties between sisters.

Because that's a trigger for many people, so this setting might not have broad appeal. Perhaps to lessen it, the Clan mothers are chimera in the sense they have multiple genomes? Why limit yourself! And there could be a taboo against clan members raised together having relationships, but not within a clan. So two Vanadirans that were raised as more direct sisters would be considered incestuous due to their closer bond, but not a clan member raised elsewhere or by another group. How large are these clans?

I'm... afraid I don't follow your logic here. I can't figure out if you're arguing for or against the Clan-Mothers to directly give life to their children.

For, since I don't really think you could use the argument that they're kept helpless if they could level a city while being pregnant.

Digitigrade, paw-footed amazons with cat tails, cat ears, slit pupiled eyes that glow in the dark, fangs and claws is exactly the image I had in mind for them. I like the "big hair" approach, to further cement the "more human-leaning" aspect, because shoulder-manes are unique, and because... well, let's be honest, the 80s were a time of freaking humongous hairdos, weren't they?

What's cheesy sci-fi without giant pink mohawks? Liking this style.

The voidstalkers were literally envisioned as four-armed mercenaries and assassins with some Predator-esque fixations on the holiness of the arts of killing. Does that count?

100%, but I think the Vanadirans already have an image. Fierce!

Priest classes have never been my thing, so I'm really grateful for the opinion of others. Oni... could make sense, they might even be one of the few races in this setting who reach to the other planes* - Warlock heavy, and now that you bring it up, I also like the idea that one of the things marking the Gyokuto as reluctant additions is their attempt to preserve ancestral religions.

Yeah, I think for a game it's better to have more options then less. Would the Voidstalkers have a religion, and what about the Scavvers? Could they be clerics of a powerful machine spirit or even of a group of machine spirits? Do clerics NEED gods in this setting?

Hmm, you have a point. It is more optimal that way, and perhaps their transformations tend to be plant and insect reskins of various animals?

While I could see this of the Veshy...I am more thinking that Kixians should be clerics. The transformation thing doesn't really gel with me, unlike the planty Paxians. Maybe some sort of homebrewed clerics with druid spells? Or replacing Wildshape with something else entirely?

Hmm... personally, I like Veshy as the original unified race name, but in modern times, the peaceful ones are called Paxians and the feral ones are called... I don't know, Florans?

Thornlings as an insult, or Dross/Drossians as their actual name. I got the latter from Droseraceae, which is a family of carnivorous plants. Heck, that could be their in-setting reason for such a name, as they idealize these aggressive plants. (Which might really be aggressive!)

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-07-01, 07:51 PM

This would mean that the tanuki date back to the lost empire and are at least as old as a species as the Emperors, or that the Emperors weren't immortal at the fall of the lost empire and suborned the tanuki at some point in their own (the Emperors) rise to power.
Or, perhaps, the God-Emperors found their powers eventually insufficient to sustain them on their own, and enslaved the tanuki as a source of external rejuvenation? Sort of like what happened with the Skeksis in The Dark Crystal?

Musing on this... if the "scavvers" are the arcanotech experts, and the Aelfar are the flesh-shaping experts... what if the Emperors are "soul magic" experts, manipulating the energy of life, and are immortal or at least largely ageless due to that mastery?
That definitely gives them a unique niche, and it certainly fits with their belief in themselves as the supreme rulers of all things chosen to bring the cosmos into alignment.

As we discussed earlier, I think the Ryujin and the Ki'rinii are probably the only two species where an individual has more than a slim chance of ever directly interacting with the Emperors. All other species, it's rare, and would only happen for those rare individuals who did something extraordinary or even epic... accomplishment or error.
Agreed. I'm basically saying that these two races are literally the top of the hierarchy, partially outside of the normal bureaucracy, which is emphasized by the fact they can actually see the Emperors.

I'd probably go with their traditional roles as spies and messengers, rather that bureaucrats, but also, yes, have more than their fair share of double and triple agents, of playing both ends against the middle, of trying to do their duty while also protecting others, etc. Play up the complexity, the duplicity, the helpful/hurtful duality, etc.
Hmm, point, that does sound and feel like a better fit for kitsunes.

Instead, I'd make some members of every species the "functionaries" and bureaucrats of their caste, serving under the Ki'rinii in the Celestial Bureaucracy. Or find another species to slot into that caste of middle managers and gophers. Um... are there gopher yokai? :smallbiggrin: I wonder how long it would take gamers to get that joke. "Wait, the guys all running around with the paperwork and insisting we fill out forms are gophers?" :smallwink:
No, there's no gopher yokai. There's two flying squirrel yokai. The bureaucracy as the most "egalitarian" field of the empire does make a certain amount of sense...

From the legend on the page you linked to, I have a thought that maybe... they're where the Emperors draw from to take the "life energy" they use to maintain their immortality. In addition to being the source of much massed labor, farming or otherwise. So they're both the farmers, and the farmed.
There's a certain fittingness to what you say, but isn't it also perhaps a little too grimdark? I do agree the Aurians are leaning towards the Black, but if they literally farm their own minions like food for this, then that kind of robs them of all sympathy, doesn't it?

Based on the legend of the "gecko soldiers", one could go a darker path. The legendary Imori are the ghosts of warriors turned into geckos, so what if the Imori in your setting are brought back again and again, to keep fighting, facing horrible death after horrible death as soldiers in their masters' galaxy-spanning wars, as long as the "life magic" of the Empire can bring them back from whatever state they're in when their bodies are recovered. To be demoted into their ranks is a threatened punishment, and a few of their number earn promotion into the higher castes...
That is an awesome and creepy idea. I do still kind of want to keep the samurai lizardfolk, or are you saying that's what they still are?

Perhaps make the horse-headed the gaolers and torturers of the Empire, responsible for overseeing the imprisoned and the enslaved? (I can see the Empire using a lot of slave labor as punishment.)
Hmm... maybe wait for Honest Tiefling to share his opinions on the matter.

I can see them being scholars and sages, but don't go overboard with the rebellion thing. I'd probably just have a small number of rebels mixing all the species / castes. Indoctrination and acculturation are strong, and most people in the Empire probably believe that their Dragon Kings / God Emperors are simply enacting proper order. That's why they're willing to toil or die for the greater good. Too many rebels, and the Empire is probably ripe for toppling.
Good point. I want to make it clear that the Empire isn't invulnerable, a player's campaign could see them toppled, but you're right, it can't be too brittle.

Given that they're somewhat nondescript and overlap with the tanuki otherwise, I agree that you can pull your "miner caste" from this species.
Messengers, harbingers, and low-level ambassadorial functionaries.
The otter-people can be a niche species, with their role in fisheries.
The spider-people... eh, it's getting crowded, and there's nothing about them that screams "give them X role".
Maybe wait until Honest Tiefling can comment here before we make a decision, either way.

Bakeneko, well, yes, you do have the Vanadirans... so what if the Bakeneko are descended from Vanadarian POWs?
Oh-ho-ho! That sounds promising. If we establish a vendetta between the Aurian Emperors and the Vanadiran Clan-Mothers, the existence of Bakeneko (and/or variants) from "corrupted" Vanadirans could be a very good racial basis to work from!

True, but we could just say that through some mechanism, Vanadrans mostly only give birth to female offspring, and not mention sex chromosomes.
That's basically what I had with the whole "90% of vanadiran-born children are female vanadirans, the remainder are of their father's species" thing, isn't it?

Because that's a trigger for many people, so this setting might not have broad appeal. Perhaps to lessen it, the Clan mothers are chimera in the sense they have multiple genomes? Why limit yourself! And there could be a taboo against clan members raised together having relationships, but not within a clan. So two Vanadirans that were raised as more direct sisters would be considered incestuous due to their closer bond, but not a clan member raised elsewhere or by another group. How large are these clans?
I see clans as getting very large, hundreds of individuals strong - it depends on various factors, like how many kittens the Clan-Mother has chosen to bear in recent decades.

Or could just not mention the fact very much? I mean, I definitely agree that it can make sense to do the "directly raised together - not acceptable for sexual partners" thing, but still, the rationale for the taboo is just hard to fit into an in-universe sensibility for me.

We have incest as a taboo because inbreeding produces non-viable children. That's not a problem the vanadirans have to worry about. Is it really that big a deal, if they don't rub it into people's faces? Hell, the fact that they're a species where lesbianism is the norm is pretty triggering for some people.

For, since I don't really think you could use the argument that they're kept helpless if they could level a city while being pregnant.
Oh, good. I really like the idea of the Clan-Mothers literally giving birth to their children. Really emphasizes the close bond they have and their fundamentally maternal nature.

Plus, be honest, who in their right mind wants to go up against a heavily pregnant demigod-level tiger-dragoness? Even if you're okay with looking like a heel, you have just pissed off one of the most protective - and powerful - mothers in the universe; does that sound even remotely like a good idea?

What's cheesy sci-fi without giant pink mohawks? Liking this style.
Good; I won't deny there's some fetish fuel to it, but let's face it, we've had cheesecake elves in D&D since the beginning - what's wrong with hot glam-rocker amazon catgirls in light of that?

100%, but I think the Vanadirans already have an image. Fierce!
Huh? Sorry, I don't follow you.

Yeah, I think for a game it's better to have more options then less. Would the Voidstalkers have a religion, and what about the Scavvers? Could they be clerics of a powerful machine spirit or even of a group of machine spirits? Do clerics NEED gods in this setting?
Hmm, what if the Jallir world-ship "exo-daemons" are essentially a meta-pantheon? Each world-ship's "soul" is a chief god, with other major exo-daemons relating to major system functions forming the gods of the rest of the pantheon - look at Zeus with Hades, Gaea and Poseidon, for example.

Voidstalkers...? Probably more of a psionic philosophy than a true theology, although they could be devoted enough to murder and bloodshed to have functionally god-like entities who empower War and Death clerics.

While I could see this of the Veshy...I am more thinking that Kixians should be clerics. The transformation thing doesn't really gel with me, unlike the planty Paxians. Maybe some sort of homebrewed clerics with druid spells? Or replacing Wildshape with something else entirely?
Yeah, clerics of nature and life definitely make more sense than druids for the Kixians.

Thornlings as an insult, or Dross/Drossians as their actual name. I got the latter from Droseraceae, which is a family of carnivorous plants. Heck, that could be their in-setting reason for such a name, as they idealize these aggressive plants. (Which might really be aggressive!)
Thornling as the insult/common name and Drossian as their true name works fine for me!

Max_Killjoy

2017-07-01, 10:55 PM

Or, perhaps, the God-Emperors found their powers eventually insufficient to sustain them on their own, and enslaved the tanuki as a source of external rejuvenation? Sort of like what happened with the Skeksis in The Dark Crystal?

Yes... as they aged beyond counting, even the Emperors found they could not maintain their forms indefinitely (perhaps because of something lost with the Fall and the Dark Times), and had to search the myriad worlds of the cosmos for a great secret that would sustain them. I doubt the Tanuki even know how important the Elixir is, or why they're making it.

Or, perhaps... as they age, they continue to grow in power, until after millennia had past they started losing control, in one instance consuming an entire city in a conflagration of absorbed and unleashed "life energy". The Elixir isn't what gives them their power, it's what keeps their power from eventually destroying them. An alternative, just thinking out loud with these.

That definitely gives them a unique niche, and it certainly fits with their belief in themselves as the supreme rulers of all things chosen to bring the cosmos into alignment.

And I think it gives those who really do believe that their leaders are "God-Emperors" that little bit of evidence to point to.

Agreed. I'm basically saying that these two races are literally the top of the hierarchy, partially outside of the normal bureaucracy, which is emphasized by the fact they can actually see the Emperors.

Yeah, that was more me re-iterating for anyone who might have missed it in the big exchanges.

No, there's no gopher yokai. There's two flying squirrel yokai. The bureaucracy as the most "egalitarian" field of the empire does make a certain amount of sense...

I could not resist the pun.

I figure that the bureaucracy is mixed because farmers need farm administrators, miners need mine administrators, etc, and those management positions are filled with those who know the field they're administrating. It's higher up the org chart that the administrators often don't care how it gets done or why it didn't get done, they have their numbers to meet and their careers to advance.

There's a certain fittingness to what you say, but isn't it also perhaps a little too grimdark? I do agree the Aurians are leaning towards the Black, but if they literally farm their own minions like food for this, then that kind of robs them of all sympathy, doesn't it?

Yeah, it does up the grimdark quotient. It was something that came to me reading the legend of the rabbit giving his life to feed the stranger. Just file it away, and don't use it if it doesn't fit what you're looking for.

That is an awesome and creepy idea. I do still kind of want to keep the samurai lizardfolk, or are you saying that's what they still are?

Maybe more ashigaru or ji-samuri, to the Ryujin samurai?

Oh-ho-ho! That sounds promising. If we establish a vendetta between the Aurian Emperors and the Vanadiran Clan-Mothers, the existence of Bakeneko (and/or variants) from "corrupted" Vanadirans could be a very good racial basis to work from!

It gives the Clan-Mothers and their followers a specific reason to hold a grudge against the Empire. And it lends a certain air of tragedy when Vanadians are forced to fight their long-lost and "brainwashed" Bakeneko cousins.

There's probably an ongoing effort by some clans to subvert and rescue the Bakeneko, and/or use them as a fifth column. Infiltrating the Bakeneko would make a hell of a mission for a Vanadiran PC.

Hmm, what if the Jallir world-ship "exo-daemons" are essentially a meta-pantheon? Each world-ship's "soul" is a chief god, with other major exo-daemons relating to major system functions forming the gods of the rest of the pantheon - look at Zeus with Hades, Gaea and Poseidon, for example.

I'd expect the "scavvers" to be pretty agnostic / areligious. First of all, they know how those spirits were created -- they did it, or their ancestors did. Second, when their world died, they well could have thought that their gods died with it, or thought that their gods had abandoned them and their world to wither away. The techno-spirits are their tools/pets/friends/whatever, depending on the individual scavver's viewpoint, but they're sure not gods. IMO.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-07-02, 01:05 PM

Yes... as they aged beyond counting, even the Emperors found they could not maintain their forms indefinitely (perhaps because of something lost with the Fall and the Dark Times), and had to search the myriad worlds of the cosmos for a great secret that would sustain them. I doubt the Tanuki even know how important the Elixir is, or why they're making it.

Or, perhaps... as they age, they continue to grow in power, until after millennia had past they started losing control, in one instance consuming an entire city in a conflagration of absorbed and unleashed "life energy". The Elixir isn't what gives them their power, it's what keeps their power from eventually destroying them. An alternative, just thinking out loud with these.
Both possibilities. I think I personally lean more towards the former... what do you guys think?

I could not resist the pun.

I figure that the bureaucracy is mixed because farmers need farm administrators, miners need mine administrators, etc, and those management positions are filled with those who know the field they're administrating. It's higher up the org chart that the administrators often don't care how it gets done or why it didn't get done, they have their numbers to meet and their careers to advance.
Heh, no need to apologize. ;p

And yeah, when you put it like that, it really does mke sense that the bureaucracy as a whole is perhaps the one egalitarian option for advancement in a being's life, just as in real-world China.

Yeah, it does up the grimdark quotient. It was something that came to me reading the legend of the rabbit giving his life to feed the stranger. Just file it away, and don't use it if it doesn't fit what you're looking for.
Well... personally, I think it's a little too grim. I don't know, what do you guys all think?

Maybe more ashigaru or ji-samuri, to the Ryujin samurai?
I don't really understand the reference, sorry?

It gives the Clan-Mothers and their followers a specific reason to hold a grudge against the Empire. And it lends a certain air of tragedy when Vanadians are forced to fight their long-lost and "brainwashed" Bakeneko cousins.

There's probably an ongoing effort by some clans to subvert and rescue the Bakeneko, and/or use them as a fifth column. Infiltrating the Bakeneko would make a hell of a mission for a Vanadiran PC.
Well, that's presuming the Bakeneko still look that much like vanadirans, but you're right, it is a great hook for interactions and for PCs to use. I'm sure that HT would be more than willing to talk about how to make the Vanadirans work as a culture and do their "Evil Chinese/Japanese Knockoffs" in the bargain. :P

I'd expect the "scavvers" to be pretty agnostic / areligious. First of all, they know how those spirits were created -- they did it, or their ancestors did. Second, when their world died, they well could have thought that their gods died with it, or thought that their gods had abandoned them and their world to wither away. The techno-spirits are their tools/pets/friends/whatever, depending on the individual scavver's viewpoint, but they're sure not gods. IMO.
Well... I wouldn't be quite so sure. I mean, look at the Roman Empire; most of the religious ceremonies around the deified emperors were not so much matters of faith as a sign of political loyalty and something to rally the populace behind - like singing the National Anthem or saluting the National Flag today. Jallir "religion" could be quite mercenary in nature; "we give you these rituals, which make you stronger, and in return you use that power to help us, and if you betray us, we will replace you" sort of thing?

Honest Tiefling

2017-07-02, 06:19 PM

Or, perhaps, the God-Emperors found their powers eventually insufficient to sustain them on their own, and enslaved the tanuki as a source of external rejuvenation? Sort of like what happened with the Skeksis in The Dark Crystal?

I sorta like the idea that the god-emperors aren't as unified as they'd like people to assume. So some might have issues with this, but decide that their morals aren't as important as maintaining the empire for the safety of their peoples. So some are super-into the whole using Tanuki like this, while others are freeing Tanuki to serve them instead but never in an open way.

That definitely gives them a unique niche, and it certainly fits with their belief in themselves as the supreme rulers of all things chosen to bring the cosmos into alignment.

I like the idea of rotting undeath/spirit undeath being split. Rot is another form of life, after all, for bio-weapons and useful processes for the Aelfar.

No, there's no gopher yokai. There's two flying squirrel yokai. The bureaucracy as the most "egalitarian" field of the empire does make a certain amount of sense...

You could base it on history, where any member who passes a test becomes able to become a bureaucrat and advances as their abilities allow. Of course, getting the education and time to take the test is a different matter, so while it seems egalitarian on the surface, it isn't completely. And once passed, you are in 100%.

There's a certain fittingness to what you say, but isn't it also perhaps a little too grimdark? I do agree the Aurians are leaning towards the Black, but if they literally farm their own minions like food for this, then that kind of robs them of all sympathy, doesn't it?

So not all god-emperors do this? As suggested before, maybe they want to fight off Traggen, Pirates, Oni, and the Aelfar/Kixian alliances. Sure, having some people being harvested is bad, but if you have to weigh 100 people against several million...

You could make it a willing sacrifice. Someone gets too many debts or an illness that can't be treated or wants to increase the prestige of their family. So they sign up for the sacrifice and only willing people are taken in. Still dark, but a little less grimdark.

That is an awesome and creepy idea. I do still kind of want to keep the samurai lizardfolk, or are you saying that's what they still are?

Since the idea of souls being reincarnated for an endless series of battles is kinda grimdark, why don't we try to lighten it up? See, souls are reincarnated under the guidance of the god emperors. You did good, you get bumped up a caste/race. You did poorly, you go down. Soldiers DO get reincarnated over and over again, but much like the Samurai, they have a position of prestige and wealth. If you REALLY didn't like your situation, you could just try to go up/down (with the idea some priests of the Merciful and Benevolent God-Emperors would take the odd request to go down a rank for their mental health).

They could also try to cultivate these warriors to be of the mindset that sure, last time didn't go so well, but you just get back up and go at it again. If the race is longer lived, they could actually get to know old family members and friends, and possibly even have bonds that transcend death. Sure, they have some training issues, but it doesn't take all that long to get back into the game, gaining glory and prestige.

Also, I'd find it hilarious if people used reincarnation to administer bonsai and wisteria, since those can take centuries to become truly impressive. Have you seen Titanfall 2? The tutorial occurs in a environment that is obviously Japanese-inspired, so I think it would be good to crib some ideas from.

Hmm... maybe wait for Honest Tiefling to share his opinions on the matter.

Hey, it's YOUR setting, we're only trying to help.

Good point. I want to make it clear that the Empire isn't invulnerable, a player's campaign could see them toppled, but you're right, it can't be too brittle.

If the empire is large, toppling is impossible over the span of a single player character's life. Liberating a planet, colony or getting revenge on a particular person within the empire seem like better goals...That might get some inside help from others in the Empire. (Oh, these people really don't appreciate our guidance and help. It does sadden us, but we shall let them free. Once they have suffered without our protection, we shall welcome back our wayward children into our loving embrace...)

Oh-ho-ho! That sounds promising. If we establish a vendetta between the Aurian Emperors and the Vanadiran Clan-Mothers, the existence of Bakeneko (and/or variants) from "corrupted" Vanadirans could be a very good racial basis to work from!

I like the idea of a three-way war that is conducted primarily through skirmishes, sabotage, spying and diplomacy between the Vanadirans, the Aelfar/Kixians and the Aurian empire.

That's basically what I had with the whole "90% of vanadiran-born children are female vanadirans, the remainder are of their father's species" thing, isn't it?

Pretty much. But I wonder if it should have an effect on the child's personality.

I see clans as getting very large, hundreds of individuals strong - it depends on various factors, like how many kittens the Clan-Mother has chosen to bear in recent decades.

Sincerely doubt that they'd all be raised together then.

Or could just not mention the fact very much? I mean, I definitely agree that it can make sense to do the "directly raised together - not acceptable for sexual partners" thing, but still, the rationale for the taboo is just hard to fit into an in-universe sensibility for me.

I'd gloss it over with them being 'liberated' and prone to 'flaunting taboos'. When you only have a paragraph, focusing on the wrong details gives the wrong impression...

We have incest as a taboo because inbreeding produces non-viable children. That's not a problem the vanadirans have to worry about. Is it really that big a deal, if they don't rub it into people's faces? Hell, the fact that they're a species where lesbianism is the norm is pretty triggering for some people.

True, if the Asari are any indication. I'd just gloss it over, because it's not a huge part of them.

Oh, good. I really like the idea of the Clan-Mothers literally giving birth to their children. Really emphasizes the close bond they have and their fundamentally maternal nature.

And makes them different from the Aelfar.

Plus, be honest, who in their right mind wants to go up against a heavily pregnant demigod-level tiger-dragoness? Even if you're okay with looking like a heel, you have just pissed off one of the most protective - and powerful - mothers in the universe; does that sound even remotely like a good idea?

If you stat it, they will kill it. Just make it clear it's a really dumb idea, regardless of their pregnant status.

Good; I won't deny there's some fetish fuel to it, but let's face it, we've had cheesecake elves in D&D since the beginning - what's wrong with hot glam-rocker amazon catgirls in light of that?

I think this only becomes an issue if it is overly explicit, non-nonsensical, or focused on a single gender/body type. (See Cthulutech for what I consider an inept way to handle fan service...) Maybe Traggen are super hot-dudes or something. Or maybe the Oni.

Huh? Sorry, I don't follow you.

Fierce, as in the word used by Beyonce. Wrong decade, but so appropriate.

Hmm, what if the Jallir world-ship "exo-daemons" are essentially a meta-pantheon? Each world-ship's "soul" is a chief god, with other major exo-daemons relating to major system functions forming the gods of the rest of the pantheon - look at Zeus with Hades, Gaea and Poseidon, for example.

I like this idea, even if it means that the Jallir are worshipping the life support system. To them it might make sense, that actually DOES something useful. Who thought mountains or glaciers were a good idea?

Voidstalkers...? Probably more of a psionic philosophy than a true theology, although they could be devoted enough to murder and bloodshed to have functionally god-like entities who empower War and Death clerics.

I like the idea that they have a philosophy, and have clerics of that philosophy, if you are okay with godless clerics. I love the idea of Leyline wizards, and if there was a game set in this setting, I would probably lean to that interpretation.

Later, I shall do a write up for clerics/druids of all races as a suggestion.

EDIT: I am so far behind...

Both possibilities. I think I personally lean more towards the former... what do you guys think?

I think it should be decided for its impact on the setting. Are Tanuki playable? And if so, why would they be let free? What mechanism is used to keep them dependent on the Empire? Maybe another force (Traggen, Aelfar, Oni, or Vanadirans, through I like the idea of Kixians doing it backed by Aelfar allies) wrecked their homeworld. The Aurian empire stepped in and is helping to make it back into the paradise it once was. The Tanuki KNOW that they would not have survived without the Aurian empire. Maybe whatever happened also made changes to the Tanuki themselves, and they needed help to even survive on the most basic level. The Aurians of course, run many, many, many schools to properly educate young Tanuki...Helping them, but also grooming them to fit into the empire.

If the Tanuki make something the emperors need, two things are going to happen with the average party: 1) The party will steal/sabotage it or 2) the party will drink it. I feel like the first should not be so grievous that interrupting a single shipment will cause utter chaos, and do something a bit more interesting then kill the party member drinking it. They do soul magic, right? Maybe they need the drink to actually travel to the underworld safely (Etheral? Astral?) or they need it to communicate with all of the souls in their city. They aren't fleshcrafters, so I don't think they should well...Explode with life energy. But given that China/Japan (which I think are the two greatest inspirations) are highly animistic, perhaps they put souls around the city. Become a gate for 50 years and be forgiven of a crime and if you do your job well, you get promoted a caste when you do have a body. However, this mixture is needed to contact these spirits to keep things running.

It would also mean that any player who drank it would either have their soul go to the underworld, which might be highly unpleasant, or have an argument with a lamp post while the rest of the party looks on in confusion.

As for Kitsune, I don't really know much Chinese or Japanese mythology (I...Don't really think I can count Pom Poko as a source?), but there is the famous trope of a Kitsune posing as a beautiful woman to marry a samurai. There is also the trope of them being associated with grain, possibly due to them removing pests. Which gives me an idea: Secret Police. Some are good-hearted, seeking out criminals involved in slavery, drug trafficking and other criminals and bringing them to justice much like a Council Spectre. Others are well...Secret Police. They root out the vermin of the Aurian Empire, using shapeshifting and trickery. I could easily see a team of Kitsune being a crime/urban adventure as they bring criminals to justice.

However, if you don't want the Aurian empire to seem evil, I think you might want to consider some bad guys. I like the idea of a three-way conflict, but having outside forces that necessitate protection and are a source of crime/corruption will go far to make the measures these people might do make a lot more sense. For instance, if Dworgs are often inter-galactic crime lords, having a Kitsune shapeshifter trying to stop them is a lot different from them just spying on their own people.

As for the Imori, I like the idea of them being soldiers constantly reborn as discussed above. But perhaps if they do well, they get promoted to higher and higher ranks with each promotion. Could even have a different species of Gecko or even snake (since snakes are much more positive in China/Japan, as they are one animal of the Zodiac and Fuwa is a chinese goddess that is part snake.)

I personally like the idea of the Mezu being guardians and gaolers. It does fit the mythology of China/Japan, and gives them a unique role. They could also be combined with the Tikbalang, which is a creature that lurks in forests and mountains. They could be both hardy guardians, especially devoted to guarding frontiers and guarding new colonies. They would be the Ranger to the Ryujin's or Imori's fighter.

As for the Spider, I don't know how China depicts them, but Japan often associates them with illusions and trickery. They could either be fake (as in, the Aurian Empire just has rumors of a race that doesn't actually exist) or they were previously tricksters and pirates that were uplifted by the Aurian Empire into productive members of (their) society. They could also be another race that was deemed unsuitable and left to their own devices. Their extra limbs and the mental magic thing could also link them to the Voidstalkers, because why wouldn't they just convert everybody?

I sorta like the latter idea, with a dash of the former: They're a rumor everyone thinks is made up, but it turns out the Aurians DID capture some Voidstalkers and make them into their vassals.

The Mujina/Badgers being miners and the Kawauso being aquaculture/mariners are good ideas. I don't think everyone needs to be super detailed, because like the Gyokutoans, they could be more vague for a renegade or simple backstory. I sorta like the idea of the more rebellious Gyokutoans trying to build bridges with the Mujina and Kawauso populations to form a stronger Alliance. Preventing/Aiding such would be an excellent campaign idea, and you could have a group of the three different races so everyone could find a class they like. Now I'm being reminded of Deep Space Nine...

As for the Bakeneko/Kasha/Nekomata thing, I like the idea of the Aurians learning from their mistakes with the Traggen. They have the idea that they are going to make 3 different subraces to see which is better. There are hints to these individuals they need to prove their worth and loyalty, with the winner being accepted or even given higher status. Alternatively, the magic that infuse the Vanadirans from their birth from a Demigoddess reacted oddly with Aurian magic, accidentally creating multiple forms. Perhaps the Aurians just decided to go with it, trying to find out which one is superior for the needs of their Empire.

I kinda like the idea that no one race are performers. With such a diverse empire, people like to see their own race represented on the holo-vids and in music. The God-Emperors secretly meddle with performers to promote those groups that have many different individuals to promote a shared cultural identity and sense of unity.

If there are any recent additions, I'd lump them into a group of races/colonies that need to prove themselves. The God-Emperors are wise, but they aren't going to assign a role to a race without careful consideration! And these people need time to adjust to the rules and traditions of the empire. Earning a place is a massive achievement for a race, and is not earned in mere decades! This is a good catch-all for any race that doesn't immediately spark inspiration or for players to suggest a Yokai race.

Max_Killjoy

2017-07-02, 09:21 PM

I don't really understand the reference, sorry?

https://www.tofugu.com/japan/ashigaru/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashigaru
http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?18444-Were-the-ashigaru-and-ji-samurai-considered-samurai

Well... I wouldn't be quite so sure. I mean, look at the Roman Empire; most of the religious ceremonies around the deified emperors were not so much matters of faith as a sign of political loyalty and something to rally the populace behind - like singing the National Anthem or saluting the National Flag today. Jallir "religion" could be quite mercenary in nature; "we give you these rituals, which make you stronger, and in return you use that power to help us, and if you betray us, we will replace you" sort of thing?

Which isn't really religion or an act of faith, it's purely striking a bargain. It's a warlock move, not a priest move.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-07-02, 10:54 PM

I sorta like the idea that the god-emperors aren't as unified as they'd like people to assume. So some might have issues with this, but decide that their morals aren't as important as maintaining the empire for the safety of their peoples. So some are super-into the whole using Tanuki like this, while others are freeing Tanuki to serve them instead but never in an open way.
Maybe it'd help if we discussed the God Emperors in particular?

What I'm kind of leaning towards is that there are five of them; one for each of the five Imperial Dragons. In a mirror of the bureaucracy below them, the Sovereign Dragon is the "King of Kings" whom they all report to (perhaps grudgingly?) and the Forest, Sky, Sea and Underworld Dragons each have different areas of jurisdiction. Sound promising?

I like the idea of rotting undeath/spirit undeath being split. Rot is another form of life, after all, for bio-weapons and useful processes for the Aelfar.
Makes sense; one could argue that the Aelfar may not even like acknowledging the existence in the souls of their creations at their most extreme, given that their culture grew up around magically bred, shaped and reanimated animals, plants & fungus.

You could base it on history, where any member who passes a test becomes able to become a bureaucrat and advances as their abilities allow. Of course, getting the education and time to take the test is a different matter, so while it seems egalitarian on the surface, it isn't completely. And once passed, you are in 100%.
Sounds the best way to do it to me.

So not all god-emperors do this? As suggested before, maybe they want to fight off Traggen, Pirates, Oni, and the Aelfar/Kixian alliances. Sure, having some people being harvested is bad, but if you have to weigh 100 people against several million...

You could make it a willing sacrifice. Someone gets too many debts or an illness that can't be treated or wants to increase the prestige of their family. So they sign up for the sacrifice and only willing people are taken in. Still dark, but a little less grimdark.
Hrrmm... maybe. I think I'll shelve this until we discuss the God-Emperors in particular more, I'm really not so invested in this particular idea.

Since the idea of souls being reincarnated for an endless series of battles is kinda grimdark, why don't we try to lighten it up? See, souls are reincarnated under the guidance of the god emperors. You did good, you get bumped up a caste/race. You did poorly, you go down. Soldiers DO get reincarnated over and over again, but much like the Samurai, they have a position of prestige and wealth. If you REALLY didn't like your situation, you could just try to go up/down (with the idea some priests of the Merciful and Benevolent God-Emperors would take the odd request to go down a rank for their mental health).

They could also try to cultivate these warriors to be of the mindset that sure, last time didn't go so well, but you just get back up and go at it again. If the race is longer lived, they could actually get to know old family members and friends, and possibly even have bonds that transcend death. Sure, they have some training issues, but it doesn't take all that long to get back into the game, gaining glory and prestige.

Also, I'd find it hilarious if people used reincarnation to administer bonsai and wisteria, since those can take centuries to become truly impressive. Have you seen Titanfall 2? The tutorial occurs in a environment that is obviously Japanese-inspired, so I think it would be good to crib some ideas from.
Hmm... that could work a lot.

Hey, it's YOUR setting, we're only trying to help.
I'm sorry? I don't know what I said that was offensive, but please, accept my sincere apologies.

If the empire is large, toppling is impossible over the span of a single player character's life. Liberating a planet, colony or getting revenge on a particular person within the empire seem like better goals...That might get some inside help from others in the Empire. (Oh, these people really don't appreciate our guidance and help. It does sadden us, but we shall let them free. Once they have suffered without our protection, we shall welcome back our wayward children into our loving embrace...)
Yeah, that's closer to the scale I have planned for them, very good point.

I like the idea of a three-way war that is conducted primarily through skirmishes, sabotage, spying and diplomacy between the Vanadirans, the Aelfar/Kixians and the Aurian empire.
It makes a change from their usual fighting with space pirates, thornlings, oni renegades, rebels, aelfar, and guerilla warriors from whatever system they've currently got their sights set on. :D

Pretty much. But I wonder if it should have an effect on the child's personality.
Oh, sure, but I'd say it'd be a pretty endless argument if it's nature or nurture that tends to make vanadiran-mothered prone to aggressive self-esteem and a love of combat. ;)

Sincerely doubt that they'd all be raised together then.
Well, technically, it depends on how the Clan-Mothers produce new kittens. One at a time every few days/weeks/months/years? In litters of two or three dozen? Depending on how many younglings are born at once, you could have creches devoted to particular "broods".

I'd gloss it over with them being 'liberated' and prone to 'flaunting taboos'. When you only have a paragraph, focusing on the wrong details gives the wrong impression...

True, if the Asari are any indication. I'd just gloss it over, because it's not a huge part of them.
Yeah, that really makes the most sense - I was basically intending to mention it in passing. Like, "Because of the monosexual nature of the vanadiran race, and their unusual family structure, the generally liberated nature of the species means they unwittingly flaunt some taboos held by many other races".

And makes them different from the Aelfar.
I'm not entirely sure I follow your argument here?

If you stat it, they will kill it. Just make it clear it's a really dumb idea, regardless of their pregnant status.
I was basically speaking hyperbole, but I do see your point.

I think this only becomes an issue if it is overly explicit, non-nonsensical, or focused on a single gender/body type. (See Cthulutech for what I consider an inept way to handle fan service...) Maybe Traggen are super hot-dudes or something. Or maybe the Oni.
I think I get and understand what you're saying here, although I admit I don't follow the Cthulhutech reference.

Incidentally, yeah, I'd say that Traggen, Scro and Oni are pretty much a race of strong, fiercely handsome guys and hot amazon women - I like "hot warrior" orcs more than "hideously ugly brutes", if they're not supposed to be demon-type abominations in lieu of a proper race.

Fierce, as in the word used by Beyonce. Wrong decade, but so appropriate.
I'm Australian. I haven't the faintest (foghorn) who that is. Still leaving me in the dark here.

I like this idea, even if it means that the Jallir are worshipping the life support system. To them it might make sense, that actually DOES something useful. Who thought mountains or glaciers were a good idea?
I can see your view, but I can also see Max Killjoy's that this is technically more of a Warlock style relationship than a cleric's. If you guys are comfortable, we can debate the matter.

I like the idea that they have a philosophy, and have clerics of that philosophy, if you are okay with godless clerics. I love the idea of Leyline wizards, and if there was a game set in this setting, I would probably lean to that interpretation.

Later, I shall do a write up for clerics/druids of all races as a suggestion.
Godless clerics is fine - or maybe they're not godless? Maybe they believe that the psyches of those who truly dedicate themselves to the martial arts (in the sense of "the art of death and battle") can live on and amalgamate together into a single "godhead"? Sort of like how daemons are formed in 40K?

And a clerical/druidic writeup would be an interesting suggestion; I'm all for it.

I think it should be decided for its impact on the setting. Are Tanuki playable? And if so, why would they be let free? What mechanism is used to keep them dependent on the Empire? Maybe another force (Traggen, Aelfar, Oni, or Vanadirans, through I like the idea of Kixians doing it backed by Aelfar allies) wrecked their homeworld. The Aurian empire stepped in and is helping to make it back into the paradise it once was. The Tanuki KNOW that they would not have survived without the Aurian empire. Maybe whatever happened also made changes to the Tanuki themselves, and they needed help to even survive on the most basic level. The Aurians of course, run many, many, many schools to properly educate young Tanuki...Helping them, but also grooming them to fit into the empire.
Ideally, I'd like to make as many of the races playable as possible, including tanuki.

Why are they free? Because not all tanuki are necessary to the process; they had the bad luck to be the initial creators, and the Aurians would rather not appear vulnerable by spreading that information. So long as the bulk of the race is aligned to the empire, the loss of individuals is nothing to even notie.

Well, what I was originally planning is that the messed up gender ratio and a stranglehold over access to the breedable females was to be used as the control mechanism, but we can abandon that and find a new angle if that's uncomfortable.

Hmm... you know, that's actually an interesting rationale to establish genuine loyalty, or at the least the seeds thereof, in the tanuki race. Could be an escape aelfar plague - or they could be an aelfar slave-race that escaped their makers and sought refuge in the empire? Or they could have just been nearly eliminated by more primitive and predatory kixians, perhaps before they were "re-educated" themselves by the aelfar, and they still hold that ancestral grudge?

If the Tanuki make something the emperors need, two things are going to happen with the average party: 1) The party will steal/sabotage it or 2) the party will drink it. I feel like the first should not be so grievous that interrupting a single shipment will cause utter chaos, and do something a bit more interesting then kill the party member drinking it. They do soul magic, right? Maybe they need the drink to actually travel to the underworld safely (Etheral? Astral?) or they need it to communicate with all of the souls in their city. They aren't fleshcrafters, so I don't think they should well...Explode with life energy. But given that China/Japan (which I think are the two greatest inspirations) are highly animistic, perhaps they put souls around the city. Become a gate for 50 years and be forgiven of a crime and if you do your job well, you get promoted a caste when you do have a body. However, this mixture is needed to contact these spirits to keep things running.

It would also mean that any player who drank it would either have their soul go to the underworld, which might be highly unpleasant, or have an argument with a lamp post while the rest of the party looks on in confusion.
Definitely agree that hitting one shipment should not be an empire-wrecking event.

As for drinking it... well, personally, I was thinking that The Serum works more or less like that stuff in Pathfinder - what is is, Sun Lotus Elixir? So, you drink it, it'll cure any disease you have, it'll heal all your wounds, and then it'll restore you to the prime of your youth. But that's a once-off deal. You reset the clock once... what do you do when you realize that you're aging again? Perhaps even faster that before? After all, the God-Emperors have their own spiritual powers to counteract things, but that doesn't mean that you can't be hit with a permanent "age at 10 times the normal rate" drawback to consuming The Serum. And once you've drunk all of it that you stole... then what?

As for Kitsune, I don't really know much Chinese or Japanese mythology (I...Don't really think I can count Pom Poko as a source?), but there is the famous trope of a Kitsune posing as a beautiful woman to marry a samurai. There is also the trope of them being associated with grain, possibly due to them removing pests. Which gives me an idea: Secret Police. Some are good-hearted, seeking out criminals involved in slavery, drug trafficking and other criminals and bringing them to justice much like a Council Spectre. Others are well...Secret Police. They root out the vermin of the Aurian Empire, using shapeshifting and trickery. I could easily see a team of Kitsune being a crime/urban adventure as they bring criminals to justice.
I absolutely love this idea.

However, if you don't want the Aurian empire to seem evil, I think you might want to consider some bad guys. I like the idea of a three-way conflict, but having outside forces that necessitate protection and are a source of crime/corruption will go far to make the measures these people might do make a lot more sense. For instance, if Dworgs are often inter-galactic crime lords, having a Kitsune shapeshifter trying to stop them is a lot different from them just spying on their own people.
It's not so much I want the Aurians to not seem evil as I don't want them to be cartoonishly evil, do you follow? Because nobody's really 100% good (okay, the Paxians and the Quetzalii are pretty close, but they still stumble and fall) in this universe. Does that make sense?

As for the Imori, I like the idea of them being soldiers constantly reborn as discussed above. But perhaps if they do well, they get promoted to higher and higher ranks with each promotion. Could even have a different species of Gecko or even snake (since snakes are much more positive in China/Japan, as they are one animal of the Zodiac and Fuwa is a chinese goddess that is part snake.)
You know... a mini-tier of soldierly ranks based on different reptile-folk could work pretty nicely. III like this idea a lot.

I personally like the idea of the Mezu being guardians and gaolers. It does fit the mythology of China/Japan, and gives them a unique role. They could also be combined with the Tikbalang, which is a creature that lurks in forests and mountains. They could be both hardy guardians, especially devoted to guarding frontiers and guarding new colonies. They would be the Ranger to the Ryujin's or Imori's fighter.
Hmm... interesting. Because Mezu is a pretty flat figure in mythology, maybe we can also meld in aspects of the Mares of Diomedes? I rather like the ideas that can bring in, if you're okay with me elaborating on that.

As for the Spider, I don't know how China depicts them, but Japan often associates them with illusions and trickery. They could either be fake (as in, the Aurian Empire just has rumors of a race that doesn't actually exist) or they were previously tricksters and pirates that were uplifted by the Aurian Empire into productive members of (their) society. They could also be another race that was deemed unsuitable and left to their own devices. Their extra limbs and the mental magic thing could also link them to the Voidstalkers, because why wouldn't they just convert everybody?

I sorta like the latter idea, with a dash of the former: They're a rumor everyone thinks is made up, but it turns out the Aurians DID capture some Voidstalkers and make them into their vassals.
I wouldn't necessarily make them corrupted Voidstalkers, but that's actually a pretty good idea, with them being a "secret" everything thinks is fake, but actually isn't.

The Mujina/Badgers being miners and the Kawauso being aquaculture/mariners are good ideas. I don't think everyone needs to be super detailed, because like the Gyokutoans, they could be more vague for a renegade or simple backstory. I sorta like the idea of the more rebellious Gyokutoans trying to build bridges with the Mujina and Kawauso populations to form a stronger Alliance. Preventing/Aiding such would be an excellent campaign idea, and you could have a group of the three different races so everyone could find a class they like. Now I'm being reminded of Deep Space Nine...
Good points, very good points.

As for the Bakeneko/Kasha/Nekomata thing, I like the idea of the Aurians learning from their mistakes with the Traggen. They have the idea that they are going to make 3 different subraces to see which is better. There are hints to these individuals they need to prove their worth and loyalty, with the winner being accepted or even given higher status. Alternatively, the magic that infuse the Vanadirans from their birth from a Demigoddess reacted oddly with Aurian magic, accidentally creating multiple forms. Perhaps the Aurians just decided to go with it, trying to find out which one is superior for the needs of their Empire.
Ooh, really like these ideas.

I kinda like the idea that no one race are performers. With such a diverse empire, people like to see their own race represented on the holo-vids and in music. The God-Emperors secretly meddle with performers to promote those groups that have many different individuals to promote a shared cultural identity and sense of unity.
Very good points, and when you put it like that, I really like that myself.

Thanks a ton for the links, by the way, Killjoy... I really hope that doesn't come off as insulting as it feels...

Max_Killjoy

2017-07-03, 12:24 AM

I'm sorry? I don't know what I said that was offensive, but please, accept my sincere apologies.

I think HT just meant that we're here to provide ideas and feedback, you don't have to feel obligated to wait for one of us to comment -- it's your world.

Thanks a ton for the links, by the way, Killjoy... I really hope that doesn't come off as insulting as it feels...

I figured you just meant what you said.

They were posted in hopes of explaining what I meant by making the geckos ashigaru.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-07-03, 10:07 PM

So... I said earlier in this thread that there is a "meta-cosmology" to this setting, sort of like how Spelljammer and Planescape take place in the same multiverse, but I was wondering if I should share the wider cosmology?

In the end, I figured it couldn't hurt, but hopefully this does actually turn out to be useful... And it reminds me that I do need to try and find the motivation to get back to work on the Malebolge as well...

The Twisting Nether: This strange void-like realm, a place of swirling multi-hued mists, ghostly voices, and weird "bubbles" of abandoned reality, is most well-known for its unique ability to allow one to literally walk to any other plane in existence. As a "transitive plane", many sages argue the proposition that is a spiritual reflection of the physical space in which the material worlds orbit. It is no place for the unwary or the weak to travel; beyond its own native hazards, many strange and unearthly extraplanar beings dwell here.

The Feywild: A weird and mystical land, a place of maddening beauty and terrifying glamor. This primal realm seemed to be the very incarnation of life, a place where plants, animals and magic all thrived with an intensity unmatched on most worlds (those that aren't strongly connected to it, of course). Its denizens, the fae, operated by their own peculiar rules and rituals, making them unpredictable and driven by extremely intense emotions.

The Maelstrom: Believed to be the raw building blocks of creation, the Maelstrom or Elemental Chaos is an infinitely vast plane where elemental matter and energy twists and shapes itself in fashions alien even to all but the most magical of worlds. Moving forests of iron, rivers of lightning, floating continents drifting icy anti-lava, and other such wonders are born from the turbulence, sometimes lasting for thousands of years, other times barely lasting an hour before being dissolved into the next miraculous display of elemental majesty.

The Shadowfell: Least understood of the various realms, the Shadowfell is the dark counterpart to the Feywild. Here, in what are sometimes known as the Lands of Eternal Darkness, death is all. The souls of the dead make their final journey, vanishing to whatever mysterious fates await them, and strange entities of death, undeath and madness dwell in the endless night.

The Infernum: None have ever been able to satisfactorily discern if this strange, awful realm is in fact a plane in its own right or some particularly dismal corner of the Shadowfell or Twisting Nether. Its inhabitants refer to themselves as demons, grotesque beings caught up in an eternal war against both their own kind and against the denizens of the Paradiso - a race that the fiends claim were their progenitors, eons ago.

The Paradiso: At first glance a beautiful realm of crystal and precious metals, Paradiso hides a darkness behind its gilt. Like its dark mirror the Infernum it's unclear exactly where this realm lies in the cosmos. Its proud and haughty denizens, the angels, are known for both their absent-minded contempt for most mortal beings and for their eternal feud against the demons.

Max_Killjoy

2017-07-03, 10:16 PM

You noted that there are as few as five "Dragon Emperors", which brings to mind a few separate questions.

1) Is that the total of the Aurian population, all that survived from the lost time? (Ideas for why they haven't "made more"... all five survivors are male, or all five are female, and they find the idea of producing offspring with a lesser race or using a machine repugnant... the elder magic that made them immortal also made them sterile... they're pathologically insecure when it comes to the thought of creating upstart princes so they refuse to reproduce... they're so emotionally and intellectually removed from the drives of mortal beings that they feel no urge to have progeny... )

2) Any thought given to the possibility of lower ranks of actual Aurians, Dragon Kings or Dragon Lords between the Dragon Emperors and the highest tier of subject species?

3) How many Clan-Mothers are there? (This will also inform the answer to the above question regarding often / fast the individual Clan-Mothers have offspring.)

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-07-03, 10:38 PM

You noted that there are as few as five "Dragon Emperors", which brings to mind a few separate questions.

1) Is that the total of the Aurian population, all that survived from the lost time?
Well, in honestly, I would say yes. I think it makes them feel more "godly" if there really are only the one of each Imperial Dragon species, don't you? There's nothing to "dilute" that aura of specialness, and it helps them feel more "special" than the comparatively more common Clan-Mothers.

2) Any thought given to the possibility of lower ranks of actual Aurians, Dragon Kings or Dragon Lords between the Dragon Emperors and the highest tier of subject species?
As I said, I'm kind of leaning towards the idea that there's literally only 5 Aurians in existence. Though, depending on how you guys react to that, I can definitely see a lower "court" of less powerful and less important - although still far more important than any vassal race - aurians too.

3) How many Clan-Mothers are there? (This will also inform the answer to the above question regarding often / fast the individual Clan-Mothers have offspring.)
Hmm... I was thinking there's actually a fair few of these, especially if we preserve the idea that a vanadiran could potentially be mutated into a Clan-Mother in her own right (analogous to the "become a dragon/demigod/demiurge/etc" epic destinies in 4e). I'd say at least 12 to 18 of them, easily.

Max_Killjoy

2017-07-03, 11:26 PM

Well, in honestly, I would say yes. I think it makes them feel more "godly" if there really are only the one of each Imperial Dragon species, don't you? There's nothing to "dilute" that aura of specialness, and it helps them feel more "special" than the comparatively more common Clan-Mothers.

As I said, I'm kind of leaning towards the idea that there's literally only 5 Aurians in existence. Though, depending on how you guys react to that, I can definitely see a lower "court" of less powerful and less important - although still far more important than any vassal race - aurians too.

I'm good with there only being five left, each the last survivor of its (sub)species. It's more that I ask some of these questions to make sure there's an answer -- because they're the questions that players will ask if they dig into the setting the way I dig into settings. And it's the sort of question to which the answer will affect other decisions, and facts of the setting.

Edited the above post, probably while you were replying, so here's what I added:

Ideas for why they haven't "made more"... all five survivors are male, or all five are female, and they find the idea of producing offspring with a lesser race or using a machine repugnant... the elder magic that made them immortal also made them sterile... they're pathologically insecure when it comes to the thought of creating upstart princes so they refuse to reproduce... they're so emotionally and intellectually removed from the drives of mortal beings that they feel no urge to have progeny... they're distinct enough that they can't interbreed... they don't trust each other enough to do so...

Hmm... I was thinking there's actually a fair few of these, especially if we preserve the idea that a vanadiran could potentially be mutated into a Clan-Mother in her own right (analogous to the "become a dragon/demigod/demiurge/etc" epic destinies in 4e). I'd say at least 12 to 18 of them, easily.

Makes sense, and I'd keep the "promotion" possibility for Vanadirans.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-07-03, 11:41 PM

I'm good with there only being five left, each the last survivor of its (sub)species. It's more that I ask some of these questions to make sure there's an answer -- because they're the questions that players will ask if they dig into the setting the way I dig into settings. And it's the sort of question to which the answer will affect other decisions, and facts of the setting.
Hey, I don't mind answering queries like this. I appreciate you doing so.

Edited the above post, probably while you were replying, so here's what I added:

Ideas for why they haven't "made more"... all five survivors are male, or all five are female, and they find the idea of producing offspring with a lesser race or using a machine repugnant... the elder magic that made them immortal also made them sterile... they're pathologically insecure when it comes to the thought of creating upstart princes so they refuse to reproduce... they're so emotionally and intellectually removed from the drives of mortal beings that they feel no urge to have progeny... they're distinct enough that they can't interbreed... they don't trust each other enough to do so...

All good possibilities, but here's another: perhaps they can't. Maybe the ki'rinii and the ryujin are the closest they've managed to come, but, like the Clan-Mothers, whatever's made them immortal has rendered them incapable of creating more exact replicas of themselves?

Makes sense, and I'd keep the "promotion" possibility for Vanadirans.
Agreed, although that's more of a campaign end-goal than anything, wouldn't you agree?

Max_Killjoy

2017-07-03, 11:52 PM

Hey, I don't mind answering queries like this. I appreciate you doing so.

All good possibilities, but here's another: perhaps they can't. Maybe the ki'rinii and the ryujin are the closest they've managed to come, but, like the Clan-Mothers, whatever's made them immortal has rendered them incapable of creating more exact replicas of themselves?

I thought I had that one in my list. :smallwink:

Agreed, although that's more of a campaign end-goal than anything, wouldn't you agree?

Yes -- it's possible it hasn't happened in living memory, or in the memories of anyone that anyone alive ever knew. It's a behind-the-curtain fact of the setting, and in-character it's a legend, a story told about the one time...

FreddyNoNose

2017-07-04, 12:32 AM

I haven't read all the posts but has anyone mentioned Barlowe's Guide to Extraterrestrials?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barlowe%27s_Guide_to_Extraterrestrials

Honest Tiefling

2017-07-04, 03:35 PM

I think HT just meant that we're here to provide ideas and feedback, you don't have to feel obligated to wait for one of us to comment -- it's your world.

Pretty much! Here to help, but you shouldn't feel obligated to pay attention to us. We're here to help, not wrest control.

I would post more, but I have a three-page document on clerics and druid suggestions and I think we need to discuss this warlock/cleric thing. Now, clerics are a good class, and can fulfill that healer role. Hey man, I have my biases!

The way I would see it is that a cleric is a servant that answers to the gods. They might put aside their own identity and legacy to better serve the gods. They dedicate their entire lives to worship, rituals and understanding the great God-Emperors. They are clerics, and their duties are to tend to the needs of the God Emperors, not the people.

Warlocks on the other hand could be like Favored Souls. The Aurian God-Emperors see someone promising and see their fate written in the stars. They bless this person with great power, but also burden them with great responsibility. They are often tasked with a particular quest, after which they can decide what to do with their lives and their reward. Others are kept in the service of the God-Emperors, for their skills are needed for the betterment of their people.

So both classes exist and are priestly, but not nearly the same thing. Still wish for Ley-line druids!

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-07-04, 08:50 PM

Pretty much! Here to help, but you shouldn't feel obligated to pay attention to us. We're here to help, not wrest control.

I would post more, but I have a three-page document on clerics and druid suggestions and I think we need to discuss this warlock/cleric thing. Now, clerics are a good class, and can fulfill that healer role. Hey man, I have my biases!

The way I would see it is that a cleric is a servant that answers to the gods. They might put aside their own identity and legacy to better serve the gods. They dedicate their entire lives to worship, rituals and understanding the great God-Emperors. They are clerics, and their duties are to tend to the needs of the God Emperors, not the people.

Warlocks on the other hand could be like Favored Souls. The Aurian God-Emperors see someone promising and see their fate written in the stars. They bless this person with great power, but also burden them with great responsibility. They are often tasked with a particular quest, after which they can decide what to do with their lives and their reward. Others are kept in the service of the God-Emperors, for their skills are needed for the betterment of their people.

So both classes exist and are priestly, but not nearly the same thing. Still wish for Ley-line druids!

Since this is set in the same overarching cosmology as my Malebolge setting, I trust you will forgive me referencing to the rules I established there?

Throughout the Multiverse, there are Powers. Beings of great mystical might, such that they can share this magic with those who are willing to serve or bargain with them. Call them gods if you wish; many think of themselves that way, although they are far closer to 4e's depiction of the gods - powerful, but not all omnipotent, and mortal in their way. You can potentially slay Codricuhn the Blood Storm... potentially. More likely, your bodies will join the billions of others who tried and failed, your bones tangled amongst the chains that slow but fail to halt his inexorable advance towards the annihilation of all that is, was and will ever be.

The Warlock, the Cleric, the Favored Soul and the Theurge all draw upon these Powers - the precise methodology of "how" determines what you are.

Warlocks make bargains with Powers. They agree to terms and offer goods or services beforehand, after which they are usually given a fairly "hands-off" approach to their power, assuming they're given any further contact at all.

Clerics offer servitude: they bend the proverbial (and sometimes literal) knee and vow to live in a way that their Power demands and to dedicate their lives to achieving the goals of that Power.

This does mean the Cleric/Warlock divide can be rather thin in some places - on the planet of Malebolge, Warlocks have effectively replaced Clerics entirely, as the magocratic cultures that once ruled that world bred a certain...distrustful independence, let us say.

The Theurge does not do either of these. These wizards use arcane rituals to remotely tap into and draw upon the magics of Powers. This is why they cannot wield such power as adeptly as a Cleric (aka, why Theurges have such a slow access to Cleric spells). They may give some honor to the Power(s) they draw from, but they are not as subservient in the relationship as a Cleric.

The Favored Soul in comparison simply uses such magic instinctively. Why they can do so is always up for debate, and in truth probably differs between each individual.

Druidic magic is a different form of magic entirely. Druids learn to tap into the underlying magical energies of the world - which are, themselves, part and parcel of the Leylines that run through the universe. Many believe that the Leylines are the source of all life, and that this is why druidic magics are so closely tied to life's rawest expressions; plants and animals.

Sooo.... yeah. This is my overarching viewpoint for how the "Divine Magic Users" fit into the overall cosmology of my various settings. Does this help at all? Is it at all relevant?

Max_Killjoy

2017-07-04, 09:40 PM

I haven't read all the posts but has anyone mentioned Barlowe's Guide to Extraterrestrials?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barlowe%27s_Guide_to_Extraterrestrials

I hadn't mentioned it, but I do have a copy right here behind me on the big bookshelves.

Probably more of a source of inspiration, than of direct ideas.

Honest Tiefling

2017-07-05, 02:06 PM

Since this is set in the same overarching cosmology as my Malebolge setting, I trust you will forgive me referencing to the rules I established there?

Well, I don't really know why I'd take offense by this, so go right ahead.

Sooo.... yeah. This is my overarching viewpoint for how the "Divine Magic Users" fit into the overall cosmology of my various settings. Does this help at all? Is it at all relevant?

I didn't actually find it different from my own suggestion, in that clerics are servants, warlocks are granted power. (based off of Ancient Egyptian religion, where priests were often too busy making sure gods didn't go on rampages to tend to the spiritual needs of the people) I also like the idea of a Warlock being more common and trusted, as opposed to the cleric.

Here are some suggestions, to tie clerics and druids into the setting:

Aelfar/Kixians
Aelfar used to have religious practices, but these have since have died out in most, but not all, Aelfar settlements. Their ancient religion has been kept alive mostly by the Kixians. Many Aelfar think this is backwards, but many also accept that like them, their religion is something that is living and changing as suits the needs of their people.
The Aelfarian/Kixian religion focuses on self-improvement and understanding and has little basis in morality. For them, religion is a path to guide one to power, not based in ethics. They worship a small pantheon of powers focused on self-mastery and understanding.
Domains: Life, Nature, Arcana, Protection

Aurian Empire
How could one be a god-emperor if they do not have worshippers? Priests of the Aurian empire are not priests as many other people would think of them. They tend to the needs of the Aurian Emperors and are scholars, sages, and attendants, not preachers. Many do little more than maintain shrines and temples used in the rituals of the God-Emperors, and rarely leave such domains. Those who do are often given a mission by a God-Emperor, usually to escort and spiritually guide a person of importance (perhaps even a Warlock).
All worship the Aurian God-Emperors, so why would they need to convert people? They also do not learn social graces like a bureaucrat or a courtier, as their time is best spent learning how to tend to their duties. Humility is a large part of their lifestyle, as contact with the God-Emperors might cause their priests to overstep their bounds as servants of the gods as they have been granted a honor most people can never hope to achieve.
Domains: Life, Grave, Tempest, Knowledge

Gyokutoans
Gyokutoans revere their ancestors, and have a pantheon of heroes. By emulating these heroes and their great deeds, they become closer to their ancestral patron and access their powers. Not all heroes are kind, and some are seen outright as villains or anti-heroes. Opinions on the heroes varies greatly throughout the Gyokutoan colonies. Before Aurian domination, many of these priests tended to fight with one another, but most now operate under an unofficial truce until their people are freed.
Domains: Any. Each hero would have a singular domain, but there should be enough heroes to cover them all. Players might enjoy the opportunity to make their own. Given the number of heroes, it would be likely that popular domains would have multiple heroes.

Scavvers
Scavvers don’t revere a singular god, but the pantheon associated with their world ship, which are both singular and multiple entities. As they take a machine spirit with them coupled with tech built on their home ship, they are connected to their people and their home. Religion is seen as the support and connection to their kin, and focuses more on familial ties then a moral philosophy.
Domains: Forge, Tempest, Light, Protection, Knowledge

Paxians/Drossians
These guys don’t have a strong clerical tradition, but do have druidic traditions. They believe that ‘Priest’ magic is using totems and rituals to access the Astral Leylines, while they are more direct. Being as diplomatic as they are, they are quick to remind others that neither method is superior to one another, and the usage of such magic is far more important.
Drossians don’t really care about anyone else’s opinion, and find that the leylines make for an excellent weapon against others.
Paxian Druid Circles: Moon, Land, Shepard
Drossian Druid Circles: Moon, Land, Twilight

Traggen/Dworg/Oni
After their Exile, (Or what the Oni more likely call their liberation), they were cut off from their source of power. While many would be satisfied with their considerable physical prowess, many Oni sought another form of power for revenge or to simply survive without their patrons. Most turned to the Leyline magic, followers of the ideals of strength, revenge, and survival.

Some Oni and Dworg, desperate for power, consumed the sap of many Paxians and/or Drossians (they didn’t make much of a distinction at the time) in a ritual called the Harvesting. These druids believe they have gained the power to access the leylines by consuming the Veshy. These druids, called the Harvesters, seek power and dominance and are often considered monsters for hunting down the Veshy…Through many are secretly hired to get rid of the Drossians. Many use the sap of a Veshy (or other plant creature when the former is not available) to enter dream like states during rituals to advance their powers.
Domains: War, Nature, Life, Trickery
Druid Circles: Land, Dream

Vanadirans
Vanadirans believe they have an innate connection to the magic of their mothers. The religious trappings of other races confuse them, as they simply reach out to their racial magic. Their priests are often called ‘Incarnates’ as an approximate translation. Incarnates simply do as their instincts demand, being protective and loyal to their clans.

Most Incarnates are associated with War and Life, as that is the calling of the Vanadirans. Each clan draws their Incarnate magic from their Clan Mother, but since the Clan Mothers are different, each Clan has an additional domain as appropriate to the Clan Mother.
Domains: Life, War, and one determined by their clan.

Voidstalkers
For these guys, I like the idea of them having a caste of people called Deathspeakers. They are not leaders of their kind, but are seen as wise if crazed sages that peer into the darkness between the stars to hear the whispers of ancient and terrible powers, and don’t always come back…Right. They obey the whispers of something beyond the stars, only glanced in the Void. They are as feared as they are respected, and often given a wide berth.

Deathspeakers represent ancient traditions and religion that formed the basis of current Voidstalker philosophy. Many Voidstalkers eschew these ancient practices in preference of cold, calculating discipline, but are still respected in their society, if given a large berth. Some find value in mastering or besting their techniques, but it is slowly dying out.
Others still have learned to combine the two paths, through those who do so are seen as overly ambitious or desperate, as they have tossed caution into the wind in their pursuit of power. Almost all who do so do it in secret, and some are even exiled if they have reached a position of power. (These guys would mechanically be Theurge Wizards, because Int bonus).
Domains: Trickery, Death, Grave, War

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-07-05, 03:00 PM

I'm very impressed. The "Warlocks are more trusty than Clerics" thing is actually a quirk of that one isolated world rather than a meta-setting wide statement, but still, you've come up with some very good ideas.

...And I'm going to hate myself for what this is going to do to you, but have you checked out the new Plane Shift: Amonkhet article? There's five new Domains there - Solidarity, Knowledge, Strength, Ambition, and Zeal - and those might actually be worth checking out to see if they could influence your suggestions here.

Max_Killjoy

2017-07-05, 03:25 PM

Honest Tiefling

2017-07-05, 03:43 PM

...And I'm going to hate myself for what this is going to do to you, but have you checked out the new Plane Shift: Amonkhet article? There's five new Domains there - Solidarity, Knowledge, Strength, Ambition, and Zeal - and those might actually be worth checking out to see if they could influence your suggestions here.

*chugs tea* LET'S DO THIS.

I assume MOST of those ideas are workable (except maybe the Traggen/Oni), so I'm going to add in domains here. Also, each race will have a default 5 domains.

Aelfar/Kixian: Life, Nature, Arcana, Protection, Ambition

Aurian: Life, Grave, Tempest, Knowledge, Solidarity

Scavvers/Jallir: Forge, Tempest, Light, Protection, Knowledge, Solidarity

I personally think this combo works for both the Animist and the 'Ship/crew as a living god' options presented, depending on which one gets accepted.

Traggen/Oni/Dworg: War, Ambition, Strength, Trickery, and Life.

Since the leylines for clerical powers aren't a thing, I think they should tap into powers that are brutal and violent. Make it a bit of a mystery! It would also be interesting to have to 'free' Traggen and Demi-Traggens from the clutches of an evil god. That seems pretty 80's. The Life domain could represent some of these mysterious powers that are more benevolent to muddy the waters.

Vanadirans Life, War, Strength, Zeal and one determined by their clan.

Voidstalkers Trickery, Death, Grave, War, Ambition

The word Zeal makes more sense for these guys, but nothing about that domain is subtle, so I have replaced it with the Ambition domain. Ambition to kill seems logical to me.

Overall, the Gyokutoans make it so that ANY domain, even new ones, are allowed. Life gets a lot of support, but I don't think that's a bad thing. The healer role may not be as necessary, but we don't know the impact of having space guns is on this setting. Also, many people appreciate having a healer around. Most seem to either favor blasting or smacking, which...Is probably not a bad thing. Scavvers have both, and Vanadirans should probably be leaning to hitting things, not not hitting things.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-07-05, 03:58 PM

If the "scavvers" aren't areligious, as I was thinking earlier, then my second choice would be animism and ancestor spirits, not "gods".

Hmmm... if they had to leave their oldest ancestors behind on their frozen and withered world, maybe there's still a priesthood there. Maybe the fleets or individuals make pilgrimages their to honor their ancestors and leave offerings at their shrines. Maybe surviving on the surface alone or in small groups is a right of passage when they come of age.

Just brainstorming.
Technically, we're agreed on that. The "ship-spirits", the exo-daemons, they're basically working from the same techno-animism as the Adeptus Mechanicus in 40K.

Hmm... I'm not necessarily sure about it being a culture wide thing, but I could definitely see a sect of, for example, Grave Clerics or Paladin analogues thereof*, who make religious pilgrimages to the Frozen World to placate/remember the spirits of the generations left behind.

*Come to think of it, couldn't we make a Paladin Oath analogous to the Raven Queen Paladins of 4th edition? Paladins whose driving doctrine is that the dead should rest in peace and who seek to battle the undead and necromancers above all foes?

Hmm... this may be muddying the issue, but given the spirit-possessed nature of the WorldShips of the Jarill, maybe we could adapt the City Cleric Domain and the Ghost in the Machine Warlock Patron from the Modern Magic Unearthed Arcana? These are intended for a D20 Modern Urban Fantasy sort of setting, but if magitek is so prevalent, I think with some tinkering and reskinning, those could work here...

Only problem is if you go to a "primitive" world and you wind up unable to use those class features... :(

Since the leylines for clerical powers aren't a thing, I think they should tap into powers that are brutal and violent. Make it a bit of a mystery! It would also be interesting to have to 'free' Traggen and Demi-Traggens from the clutches of an evil god. That seems pretty 80's. The Life domain could represent some of these mysterious powers that are more benevolent to muddy the waters.
That definitely makes sense to me, and yeah, I thought your old ideas all sounded a pretty good fit.

Honest Tiefling

2017-07-05, 04:56 PM

Hmm... I'm not necessarily sure about it being a culture wide thing, but I could definitely see a sect of, for example, Grave Clerics or Paladin analogues thereof*, who make religious pilgrimages to the Frozen World to placate/remember the spirits of the generations left behind.

I like this idea, because you run less into the issue of a race possessing a singular culture/religion. I really like the idea of some throw-backs or other cultures existing. They don't need to be common, just a way to flesh out the world.

*Come to think of it, couldn't we make a Paladin Oath analogous to the Raven Queen Paladins of 4th edition? Paladins whose driving doctrine is that the dead should rest in peace and who seek to battle the undead and necromancers above all foes?

What if this sect was more open to other races? Perhaps after the Aelfar and their Kixian allies have ravaged certain sects of space, this sect has gained allies among those victims. Outcasts might find it safer to work with them, even if they don't share beliefs. Perhaps the Gyokuotan, with their hero worship, seek to make sure everyone gains the afterlife they deserve. Especially those branded criminals by the Aurians. Certain sects of Dworg, while vastly in the minority, have joined up with their Traggen underlings to give themselves a higher calling.

Hmm... this may be muddying the issue, but given the spirit-possessed nature of the WorldShips of the Jarill, maybe we could adapt the City Cleric Domain and the Ghost in the Machine Warlock Patron from the Modern Magic Unearthed Arcana? These are intended for a D20 Modern Urban Fantasy sort of setting, but if magitek is so prevalent, I think with some tinkering and reskinning, those could work here...

Only problem is if you go to a "primitive" world and you wind up unable to use those class features... :(

I sorta like the idea that a sect of priests dedicated to maintaining the World Ships get the City domain. They swear a vow never to leave their world-ships, and are in service to them. Through most of the Jarill who sign up for this don't particularly mind these restrictions because they enjoy a luxurious life while continuously working on their dream project! Screw going outside! All of your tools and things to fix are right here! Not all options from UA need to be player options, after all.

Through I could see an urban/criminal campaign happening on a World Ship where those two class options would be allowed, even if they are banned for most campaigns, just like how Aquatic options exist but are usually bad ideas.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-07-05, 05:06 PM

I like this idea, because you run less into the issue of a race possessing a singular culture/religion. I really like the idea of some throw-backs or other cultures existing. They don't need to be common, just a way to flesh out the world.
Glad you approve, because, yeah, when you put it like that, it really helps out a lot.

What if this sect was more open to other races? Perhaps after the Aelfar and their Kixian allies have ravaged certain sects of space, this sect has gained allies among those victims. Outcasts might find it safer to work with them, even if they don't share beliefs. Perhaps the Gyokuotan, with their hero worship, seek to make sure everyone gains the afterlife they deserve. Especially those branded criminals by the Aurians. Certain sects of Dworg, while vastly in the minority, have joined up with their Traggen underlings to give themselves a higher calling.
That's definitely a good idea. I mean, I'd make a "Grave Knight Oath" or whatever it'd be called - any suggestions? Oath of the Tomb? - something you can slot into any campaign setting within reason, but giving it a place within this one where multiple races could join up, makes a lot of sense.

Actually... going off on a tangent, is it a bad thing that, whilst I want to focus on this setting as its own thing, I can also see it being used to feed other "contained" settings? Like, Malebolge and my Chainmail-inspired setting are both "sub-worlds" in this setting (think Krynnspace, Realmsspace, Oerthspace), but I can cross-pollinate those other settings with things taken from this one, such as having a world with a "Catgirl Amazon" race whose lore is that they're Vanadirans who got stranded here and have forgotten their origins amongst the stars?

I sorta like the idea that a sect of priests dedicated to maintaining the World Ships get the City domain. They swear a vow never to leave their world-ships, and are in service to them. Through most of the Jarill who sign up for this don't particularly mind these restrictions because they enjoy a luxurious life while continuously working on their dream project! Screw going outside! All of your tools and things to fix are right here! Not all options from UA need to be player options, after all.

Through I could see an urban/criminal campaign happening on a World Ship where those two class options would be allowed, even if they are banned for most campaigns, just like how Aquatic options exist but are usually bad ideas.
When you put it like that... yeah, it makes sense the City Clerics and Machine-Ghost Warlocks would be a flavor thing, but not something a player could actually use except in a very specific campaign. As you said, that's why things like water-restricted atlanteans and merfolk have never really gotten any attention except for sourcebooks focused on aquatic campaigns.

Honest Tiefling

2017-07-05, 05:16 PM

Glad you approve, because, yeah, when you put it like that, it really helps out a lot.

Awww, thank you! We're here to help.

That's definitely a good idea. I mean, I'd make a "Grave Knight Oath" or whatever it'd be called - any suggestions? Oath of the Tomb? - something you can slot into any campaign setting within reason, but giving it a place within this one where multiple races could join up, makes a lot of sense.

Do you mean a mechanical name, or a in-game name? I'd keep the mechanical name in line with the others to avoid confusion. The in-game one you can play around with.

Through if you live on an ice-world, fire magic makes a lot of sense. If you can arcano-scientifically prove that doing things to the body doesn't affect the soul and have high enough populations that moving graveyards to less needed areas is a problem, cremation also makes sense. Also in most settings you can't raise ashes as an undead. So why not Order of the Pyre?

In-game, they could be Pyromancers or Pyros for short. Obviously, they would be called Pyromaniacs as well, (despite having a very good reason and not really possessing that disorder) since some people might not be happy about rogue members running around immolating an entire building to get rid of a Space Vampire.

Actually... going off on a tangent, is it a bad thing that, whilst I want to focus on this setting as its own thing, I can also see it being used to feed other "contained" settings? Like, Malebolge and my Chainmail-inspired setting are both "sub-worlds" in this setting (think Krynnspace, Realmsspace, Oerthspace), but I can cross-pollinate those other settings with things taken from this one, such as having a world with a "Catgirl Amazon" race whose lore is that they're Vanadirans who got stranded here and have forgotten their origins amongst the stars?

Not at all. I can see how a 80's inspired setting might be good for other people to plunder for their campaigns.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-07-05, 06:04 PM

Awww, thank you! We're here to help.

Do you mean a mechanical name, or a in-game name? I'd keep the mechanical name in line with the others to avoid confusion. The in-game one you can play around with.

Through if you live on an ice-world, fire magic makes a lot of sense. If you can arcano-scientifically prove that doing things to the body doesn't affect the soul and have high enough populations that moving graveyards to less needed areas is a problem, cremation also makes sense. Also in most settings you can't raise ashes as an undead. So why not Order of the Pyre?

In-game, they could be Pyromancers or Pyros for short. Obviously, they would be called Pyromaniacs as well, (despite having a very good reason and not really possessing that disorder) since some people might not be happy about rogue members running around immolating an entire building to get rid of a Space Vampire.

Not at all. I can see how a 80's inspired setting might be good for other people to plunder for their campaigns.

I'm really glad that you guys are here to help. I... don't suppose maybe I could get your help with another project or two I'm struggling with?

And I mean a mechanical name - you know, how the canon Paladin subclasses are Oath of Ancients, Devotion, Vengeance and Crown?

And thanks, that is a relief; I mean, I know it's silly to worry when it's my own meta-setting, but still, sometimes I get caught up into a tizzy over things like that.

Honest Tiefling

2017-07-05, 06:08 PM

I'm really glad that you guys are here to help. I... don't suppose maybe I could get your help with another project or two I'm struggling with?

Depends on what it is, I am sure the two of us could help with some world building or the like.

And I mean a mechanical name - you know, how the canon Paladin subclasses are Oath of Ancients, Devotion, Vengeance and Crown?

Order of the Pyre, or Order of Cremation seem good to me.

And thanks, that is a relief; I mean, I know it's silly to worry when it's my own meta-setting, but still, sometimes I get caught up into a tizzy over things like that.

Sometimes you just need some encouragement as well. This is looking good so far!

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-07-05, 06:24 PM

Depends on what it is, I am sure the two of us could help with some world building or the like.
Well, there's two things I really want to do.

The first is finish up my Malebolge setting. I actually have this more or less figured out, but it'd mean the world to me if I could get some comments or critiques, and just know there's somebody I can bat ideas around with when I'm feeling unsure.

The second is another world-building project, a "world at war", inspired by 3e's Chainmail setting. I could really use folks willing to swap ideas and talk about it with, just like we're doing here.

So... would you, or Killjoy, or anyone here be interested in helping me out on those?

Order of the Pyre, or Order of Cremation seem good to me.
Oh? Why those and not, say, Oath of the Tomb?

I gotta head into town now and I'll be away all day, but since you're so much more a fan of divine classes than I am, I'd really appreciate it if you could bend your talents to drafting up tenets for this oath. You know, the flavorful pseudo-mechanic that 5e has used to replace the "Must Be Lawful Good" of the classic Paladin?

Sometimes you just need some encouragement as well. This is looking good so far!
Thanks so much - you're right, that's a huge part of why my Malebolge project ground to a halt; plenty of stuff figured out or planned, no motivation to complete it.

Max_Killjoy

2017-07-05, 06:34 PM

I sorta like the idea that a sect of priests dedicated to maintaining the World Ships get the City domain. They swear a vow never to leave their world-ships, and are in service to them. Through most of the Jarill who sign up for this don't particularly mind these restrictions because they enjoy a luxurious life while continuously working on their dream project! Screw going outside! All of your tools and things to fix are right here! Not all options from UA need to be player options, after all.

Through I could see an urban/criminal campaign happening on a World Ship where those two class options would be allowed, even if they are banned for most campaigns, just like how Aquatic options exist but are usually bad ideas.

Depending on how big the World Ships are and what sort of campaign you wanted, you could base most of the campaign in that one ship, and still have endless NPCs to meet and deep recesses of the ships to explore.

The "spirit of the World Ship" could have some reason to send one of its followers out on a mission, maybe it foresees needing some rare part or it wants something hand-delivered to another ship.

I can almost see these spirits being a little like the ships' AIs in Schlock Mercenary.

Oh, another idea for a campaign... a world ship has been found adrift and empty, a ghost ship that once housed, what, millions? The PCs are sent in to establish a foothold for the reclamation crew, and then the "recolonization". They have this vast endless ship to explore, and they keep getting hints that it's not as empty as it seems, and they're trying to figure out the Something Terrible that happened and why everyone is just gone without a trace. A big mission might be to make it to the AI/spirit core and repair/reboot it, and see if it knows anything.

There were no communication, no distress or warning beacons, nothing. The ship just turned up this way, maybe found at an automated fuel processing station somewhere, or turning up out of the blue at a populated system, as if it had been set for one last jump by the missing crew...

Honest Tiefling

2017-07-05, 06:52 PM

The first is finish up my Malebolge setting. I actually have this more or less figured out, but it'd mean the world to me if I could get some comments or critiques, and just know there's somebody I can bat ideas around with when I'm feeling unsure.

The second is another world-building project, a "world at war", inspired by 3e's Chainmail setting. I could really use folks willing to swap ideas and talk about it with, just like we're doing here.

Sure, but let's have a new thread. I think this thread is scaring off new comers, unfortunately.

Oh? Why those and not, say, Oath of the Tomb?

Because tombs are necromancer bait, and a logistical issue for modern cities when graveyards sit on valuable real estate or fall into disrepair.

I gotta head into town now and I'll be away all day, but since you're so much more a fan of divine classes than I am, I'd really appreciate it if you could bend your talents to drafting up tenets for this oath. You know, the flavorful pseudo-mechanic that 5e has used to replace the "Must Be Lawful Good" of the classic Paladin?

I uh, play Wizards/Clerics/Druids in that order, but why not give it a shot?

Tenets of the [TBD]
Hospitality: When one is capable of doing so, give shelter, warmth and food to those who are not your enemy freely and without debt.
Purity: Do not practice any magic that binds the souls of the dead. Treat none who practice such abhorrent arts be your kin. If you are found in the presence of such abominations, be it only to further serve the interests of the Order of [Insert name here].
Freedom: Free those souls bound to this world so that they may know peace.
Beauty: Do not desecrate the bodies of the dead, or memorials left in their honor. If they must be moved or altered, do your utmost to improve them.

Not sure if those are too loosely worded, but I wanted to avoid the traditional scenario of a paladin unable to tolerate the presence of other people. I also wanted to give them a chance to be more chaotic/evil, in that they could feasibly trick your enemies into thinking you are an ally.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-07-06, 01:47 AM

Sure, but let's have a new thread. I think this thread is scaring off new comers, unfortunately.
Suits me just fine, they already have their own threads anyway over in the Worldbuilding forum:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?516536-Malebolge-Post-Apocalyptic-Fantasy

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?527952-Need-Factions-for-a-Neo-Chainmail-Setting

Because tombs are necromancer bait, and a logistical issue for modern cities when graveyards sit on valuable real estate or fall into disrepair.
Good point. Oath of the Pyre does make more sense that way... though, I must confess, it kind of makes me think of Dark Souls.

I uh, play Wizards/Clerics/Druids in that order, but why not give it a shot?

Tenets of the [TBD]
Hospitality: When one is capable of doing so, give shelter, warmth and food to those who are not your enemy freely and without debt.
Purity: Do not practice any magic that binds the souls of the dead. Treat none who practice such abhorrent arts be your kin. If you are found in the presence of such abominations, be it only to further serve the interests of the Order of .
Freedom: Free those souls bound to this world so that they may know peace.
Beauty: Do not desecrate the bodies of the dead, or memorials left in their honor. If they must be moved or altered, do your utmost to improve them.

Not sure if those are too loosely worded, but I wanted to avoid the traditional scenario of a paladin unable to tolerate the presence of other people. I also wanted to give them a chance to be more chaotic/evil, in that they could feasibly trick your enemies into thinking you are an ally.
Hmm... not bad, not bad. Still... if you don't mind, I might try my own hand at them?

Depending on how big the World Ships are and what sort of campaign you wanted, you could base most of the campaign in that one ship, and still have endless NPCs to meet and deep recesses of the ships to explore.

The "spirit of the World Ship" could have some reason to send one of its followers out on a mission, maybe it foresees needing some rare part or it wants something hand-delivered to another ship.

I can almost see these spirits being a little like the ships' AIs in [I]Schlock Mercenary.
I don't get the reference, but those are some very good ideas, I really like.

Oh, another idea for a campaign... a world ship has been found adrift and empty, a ghost ship that once housed, what, millions? The PCs are sent in to establish a foothold for the reclamation crew, and then the "recolonization". They have this vast endless ship to explore, and they keep getting hints that it's not as empty as it seems, and they're trying to figure out the Something Terrible that happened and why everyone is just gone without a trace. A big mission might be to make it to the AI/spirit core and repair/reboot it, and see if it knows anything.

There were no communication, no distress or warning beacons, nothing. The ship just turned up this way, maybe found at an automated fuel processing station somewhere, or turning up out of the blue at a populated system, as if it had been set for one last jump by the missing crew...
This... is awesome. Seriously, awesome. You're really giving me confidence that this setting is something people could actually play in!

Max_Killjoy

2017-07-06, 06:43 AM

I don't get the reference, but those are some very good ideas, I really like.

http://www.schlockmercenary.com/
http://ovalkwiki.com/Artificial+Intelligence

This... is awesome. Seriously, awesome. You're really giving me confidence that this setting is something people could actually play in!

It's an entire galaxy filled with a host of varied and complex three-dimensional cultures and the toyboxes of both fantasy and space fiction... the problem isn't finding ideas for a campaign, the problem is figuring out which ones to use. :smallwink:

Honest Tiefling

2017-07-06, 12:14 PM

Suits me just fine, they already have their own threads anyway over in the Worldbuilding forum:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?516536-Malebolge-Post-Apocalyptic-Fantasy

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?527952-Need-Factions-for-a-Neo-Chainmail-Setting

Good point. Oath of the Pyre does make more sense that way... though, I must confess, it kind of makes me think of Dark Souls.

Is...This a good thing or a bad thing? I just can't figure out a way to get rid of bodies fast enough to prevent Necromancy that isn't fire. Also, you'd probably want fire magic on an ice world for many different reasons.

Hmm... not bad, not bad. Still... if you don't mind, I might try my own hand at them?

Of course! They definitely need refinement anyway. I think paladin oaths should be playable with a normal group for instance, and I worry these oaths aren't good for that.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-07-06, 03:38 PM

It's an entire galaxy filled with a host of varied and complex three-dimensional cultures and the toyboxes of both fantasy and space fiction... the problem isn't finding ideas for a campaign, the problem is figuring out which ones to use. :smallwink:
You really know how to make a guy feel confident about his work. :D I can't wait to see you guys in the other threads.

Is...This a good thing or a bad thing? I just can't figure out a way to get rid of bodies fast enough to prevent Necromancy that isn't fire. Also, you'd probably want fire magic on an ice world for many different reasons.
I only know Dark Souls from the music videos that MiracleOfSound has up on YouTube, but I think they're awesome, so no, it's no problem. Really, Dark Souls has some pretty awesome symbolism with fire as a literal metaphor for life.

Of course! They definitely need refinement anyway. I think paladin oaths should be playable with a normal group for instance, and I worry these oaths aren't good for that.
Alright, I'll try and get an alternative take on the Oath of the Pyre written up as soon as I can.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-07-07, 03:07 AM

Alright, sorry this took so long, but this has been one hell of a day... gotta say, I was kind of hoping to see you guys in the other threads too...

Anyway, I took inspiration from the Oaths of Ancients and Vengeance, both of whom have more "flavorful" tenets, along with dim memories of the creed of the Raven Queen in 4th edition.

Oath of the Pyre, Draft 1
Whilst many Paladins swear oaths based on greater ideals, some paladin orders are more militant in nature. Though no less devout than their kin, paladins militant focus more on opposing some particular form of evil, viewing this as the truest wickedness to oppose.

Also known as the Oath of the Grave, Tomb or Sepulcher, depending on cultural trappings, paladins of the Oath of the Pyre seek to oppose the great defiling force that is necromancy. Often formed amidst worshippers of deities who govern the cycle of life, such as the Raven Queen or Wee Jas, these paladins - frequently known as deathslayers, tomb guards, dawnbringers and torchbearers - seek to defend the peaceful sleep of the dead and to hunt down those who break the cycle of existence. Necromancers and free-willed undead such as vampires, death knights and liches are the great enemies that these paladins seek to battle, whilst others seek out lesser undead to end their torment, or guard burial sights against invasion and defilement. Some paladins for these orders are grim and stoic, whilst others are vibrant, believing in passionately enjoying the time they have available to them. All are united by common cause.

Tenets of the Oath of the Pyre
The creed of the dawnbringers is simple and pure, focused on preserving the sanctity of death and warding against those who would defile it.

The Dead Should Sleep: When the dead rise from their graves and walk amongst the living, seek out the reason why and shepherd them back into their rest eternal.

All Things Have Their Time: Everything is born, lives, and ultimately dies. Do not seek to break this cycle for selfish reasons, nor suffer others to tear it asunder.

Fear Not The Reaper: Accept the end with dignity, when it comes, and teach others to do likewise.

Defile Not The Tomb: The sanctity of the grave is paramount. Seek to seal breaches and restore the tomb, that the dead may have their dignity.

Honor The Fallen: All shall join the ranks of the dead in time. Remember those who have fallen and treat the dead with respect.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-07-07, 06:26 PM

So, just trying to bump this out of paranoia; anything particular we should be focusing on now? It's kind of hard for me to keep track.

Also... maybe I should try drafting up the "setting handbook" for this setting, as in my Malebolge topic?

Max_Killjoy

2017-07-07, 10:14 PM

When you start getting into crunch on classes, I'm a little lost... I abandoned D&D sometime in the early 3e days and haven't been back to do more than peruse a little.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-07-08, 08:47 AM

When you start getting into crunch on classes, I'm a little lost... I abandoned D&D sometime in the early 3e days and haven't been back to do more than peruse a little.

Sure, that's fair enough. Although I don't quite understand why you're bringing it up now? Apart from that long-ago attempt at statting up the first three races, everything so far has been focused on flavor-building, not anything crunchy.

Max_Killjoy

2017-07-08, 09:59 AM

Sure, that's fair enough. Although I don't quite understand why you're bringing it up now? Apart from that long-ago attempt at statting up the first three races, everything so far has been focused on flavor-building, not anything crunchy.

Maybe I misread some of the posts working on the paladin variants. Was responding regarding why I hadn't posted.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-07-08, 01:40 PM

Nah, the focus has been creating the tenets, which is the flavor side of the paladin concept - 5e's actually decent replacement for the ridiculous alignment restrictions of pre-4e. Speaking of which, what do you think of my efforts?

And I wonder what happened to the Honest Tiefling? Hope he hasn't broken both his ankles now...

Max_Killjoy

2017-07-08, 07:37 PM

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-07-09, 02:16 PM

I don't know anything about tenets... I feel like I should maybe get a copy of 5e just so I'm not flying blind.

That... might be helpful, yeah. I had no idea you were coming in blind. But, let me see if I can't be a little helpful - these are the canon Tenets for each of the four Oaths we've gotten so far (ignoring the Blackguard-esque subclasses):

Oath of Devotion:
Honesty: Don't lie or cheat. Let your word be your promise.

Courage: Never fear to act, though caution is wise.

Compassion: Aid others, protect the weak, and punish those who threaten them. Show mercy to your foes, but temper it with wisdom.

Honor: Treat others with fairness, and let your honorable deeds be an example to them. Do as much good as possible while causing the least amount of harm.

Duty: Be responsible for your actions and their consequences, protect those entrusted to your care, and obey those who have just authority over you.

Oath of the Ancients:
Kindle the Light: Through your acts of mercy, kindness and forgiveness, kindle to the light of hope in the world, beating back despair.

Shelter the Light: Where there is good, beauty, love and laughter in the world, stand against the wickedness that would swallow it. Where life flourishes, stand against the forces that would render it barren.

Preserve Your Own Light: Delight in song and laughter, in beauty and art. If you allow the light to die in your own heart, you can't preserve it in the world.

Be The Light: Be a glorious beacon for all who live in despair. Let the light of your joy and courage shine forth in your deeds.

Oath of Vengeance:
Fight The Greater Evil: Faced with a choice of fighting my sworn foes or combating a lesser evil, I choose the greater evil.

No Mercy For The Wicked: Ordinary foes might win my mercy, but my sworn enemies do not.

By Any Means Necessary: My qualms can't get in the way of exterminating my foes.

Restitution: If my foes wreak ruin on the world, it is because I failed to stop them. I must help those harmed by their misdeeds.

Oath of the Crown:
Law: The law is paramount. It is the mortar that holds the stones of civilization together, and it must be respected.

Loyalty: Your word is your bond. Without loyalty, oaths and laws are meaningless.

Courage: You must be willing to do what needs to be done for the sake of order, even in the face of overwhelming odds. If you don't act, who will?

Responsibility: You must deal with the consequences of your actions, and you are responsible for fulfilling your duties and obligations.

So, I should really try and make some sort of organized write-up of all the things we've established in this thread so far, shouldn't I? Maybe see if that can't help narrow down what we're missing, like how space travel can be done?

Max_Killjoy

2017-07-09, 09:17 PM

That... might be helpful, yeah. I had no idea you were coming in blind. But, let me see if I can't be a little helpful - these are the canon Tenets for each of the four Oaths we've gotten so far (ignoring the Blackguard-esque subclasses):

Oath of Devotion:
Honesty: Don't lie or cheat. Let your word be your promise.

Courage: Never fear to act, though caution is wise.

Compassion: Aid others, protect the weak, and punish those who threaten them. Show mercy to your foes, but temper it with wisdom.

Honor: Treat others with fairness, and let your honorable deeds be an example to them. Do as much good as possible while causing the least amount of harm.

Duty: Be responsible for your actions and their consequences, protect those entrusted to your care, and obey those who have just authority over you.

Oath of the Ancients:
Kindle the Light: Through your acts of mercy, kindness and forgiveness, kindle to the light of hope in the world, beating back despair.

Shelter the Light: Where there is good, beauty, love and laughter in the world, stand against the wickedness that would swallow it. Where life flourishes, stand against the forces that would render it barren.

Preserve Your Own Light: Delight in song and laughter, in beauty and art. If you allow the light to die in your own heart, you can't preserve it in the world.

Be The Light: Be a glorious beacon for all who live in despair. Let the light of your joy and courage shine forth in your deeds.

Oath of Vengeance:
Fight The Greater Evil: Faced with a choice of fighting my sworn foes or combating a lesser evil, I choose the greater evil.

No Mercy For The Wicked: Ordinary foes might win my mercy, but my sworn enemies do not.

By Any Means Necessary: My qualms can't get in the way of exterminating my foes.

Restitution: If my foes wreak ruin on the world, it is because I failed to stop them. I must help those harmed by their misdeeds.

Oath of the Crown:
Law: The law is paramount. It is the mortar that holds the stones of civilization together, and it must be respected.

Loyalty: Your word is your bond. Without loyalty, oaths and laws are meaningless.

Courage: You must be willing to do what needs to be done for the sake of order, even in the face of overwhelming odds. If you don't act, who will?

Responsibility: You must deal with the consequences of your actions, and you are responsible for fulfilling your duties and obligations.

So, I should really try and make some sort of organized write-up of all the things we've established in this thread so far, shouldn't I? Maybe see if that can't help narrow down what we're missing, like how space travel can be done?

Thank you for the summaries -- that at least gives me an idea. (Sadly, there are no official PDFs of the 5e PH, and the online material just gives the one Oath for the Paladin.)

The details of space travel, FTL, space combat, etc, were on my list of things to ask about.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-07-09, 11:06 PM

Thank you for the summaries -- that at least gives me an idea. (Sadly, there are no official PDFs of the 5e PH, and the online material just gives the one Oath for the Paladin.)

The details of space travel, FTL, space combat, etc, were on my list of things to ask about.

Well... I don't know how much of this I'm allowed to say, but I suggest checking on 4chan's /tg/ board. You may find a thread for 5e that can help.

As for the details of space travel... well, I don't particularly have anything solid yet. I know that vessels are the norm, but on the other hand, I also like the image of various magical creatures that can literally be ridden between the stars - that's a very 80s motif, isn't it? To have celestial steeds or winged drakes or other, weirder beasties (remember Silverhawks, where the big bad rode a half-motorcycle half-space squid?) just feels... right, wouldn't you agree?

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-07-10, 05:09 PM

Alright, let's see about starting off that booklet/note summary...

Star-Raiders Prelude & Key Design Notes:
Stretching into infinity like a sea of starlight, the Galaxy of Aether abounds in wonder and terror, beauty and madness. Untold races claim this meta-realm as their home, some traveling freely between the worlds, most locked forever into a blessedly ignorant obliviousness as to the wider realms beyond their birthworld. But, from one end of the galaxy to the next, from the shining WorldShips of the Jirall to the shadowy courts of the Aelfar, from the peaceful paradises of the Verdant Expanse to the benighted, ruin-choked worlds of the Ghoul Stars, there are those who look to the stars with determination and drive. Whether out of nobility or avarice, cruelty or curiosity, these souls seek to leave their old lives behind and step forth into Aether, to seek out the strange and the new, the lost and the ancient. These people, no matter their race, have the drive to become Star-Raiders...

A Galaxy Fantastic: The Galaxy of Aether is a space opera setting, where the normal rules of science, technology and nature do not apply. Civilizations may occupy flat worlds, or planet-sized trees adrift in the void. Castles float on the horizon of dying stars and orbit crumbling worlds. Elegant vessels sail solar winds, and space-faring reavers ride star-drakes whilst brandishing chain-axe and blaze-pistol. The stars are made of wonder and magic, and never shackle themselves to the mundanities of other, more earthly galaxies.

One Man, In The Right Place And Time, Can Move Worlds: Great and mighty are the powers that be in Aether, but none so monolithic as to be invincible. A bold, true adventurer can effect great changes, if they have the courage to step forward, the wisdom to know when to strike, and the power to bring their strike home.

Nothing Lasts Forever: Aether is a place of motion and turmoil. That which has stood for centuries today may be toppled and reduced to dust on the wind tomorrow. No matter how mighty the empires of the present, all are built upon the ruins of those that came before them, and some day, they too shall be the foundation for powers new.

Mysteries Abound: Through time and strife, through conspiracy and heresy, and a thousand causes besides, the Aether is a galaxy abounding in ancient ruins and long-lost secrets. Beyond the know stars lie countless worlds, unseen and unheard by the greater galaxy, further shrouding knowledge in the cloak of ignorance.

Opportunities and Threats: In a galaxy so vast and yet so untouched, there are endless dangers, but equally endless potential. Pirate kings gather the loot of a thousand world. Whole planets are lost to armies of the restless dead. A butcher's son can become the king of an empire that stretches across the stars, or be food for some void-stalking horror.

Science is Sorcery: Though the denizens of Aether may wield what looks like technologies at a glance, science is just another form of sorcery. Mighty clockwork engines pull motive force from solar winds or the galactic leylines, filigreed handles turn magical energy into cutting plasma or bolts of force, beings of metal and cogs bear hearts and souls - no matter how scientific something may appear, sorcery lies at its heart.

Power Flows To Those Who Wield It: Great are the rewards to be had from exploring the Aether. Wealth, power, glory, fame and fortune are there to be had by those driven to seize them. Become a blessing or a curse, a savior or a destroyer; be what you will, but if you have the strength, you will find all your dreams come true.

Death Claims The Weak: Great are the rewards, but so too are the risks. For every soul that finds its fortune, a thousand more plunge shrieking into the ever-night. Gamble with your life if you will, but know that the house always holds the ace.

Aelfar Notes:
* Visually and thematically are "space elves", but mechanically have evolved beyond that.
* Extensive fleshcrafting and necrocrafting based proficiency has had many influences on their culture.
* Aelfar are genderfluid; whilst they technically operate under a matriarchal social structure, with reverence given to "mothers" (defined as "individuals who have successfully given birth to biological offspring), their gender identity, gender titles and physical gender have no direct correlation to each other.
* In fact, aelfar genders translate into common most accurately as "Maiden, Mother and Crone".
* Aelfar society organizes itself into "houses", matriarchal extended families descending from a single leader.
* Aelfar society is technically one made entirely of aristocrats; there are differences in rank, but all manual labor is carried out by flesh-crafted slave-races, giving the aelfar a endless time to concentrate on political intrigue.
* Due to their belief that they are the masters of life and death, aelfar do not get on with most other races, being prone as a culture to doing everything from treating them like children (at best) to treating them like resources, although the attitudes towards the latter end of the spectrum are generally discouraged.
* Because of their skill at healing and reanimating, aelfar have a much more casual attitude towards death than other races do.
* Their skills have made aelfar quite skeptical of undeath; they do not immortality through undeath, and becoming a sapient undead will disempower an aelfar in society forever more.
* The primary way of cheating death when their life-extension treatments fail is to transfer their soul into an artificially grown aelfar body. Legally, this new body is a new individual, which means falls to the very bottom of aelfar society; it has the same basic rights as any aelfar, but retains no wealth, no power, no political influence.
* Central to the ideal of aelfar society is the importance of family, which they define directly through blood ties. A single drop of blood is all it takes to legally claim a position amongst the aelfar race.
* Aelfar enjoy war as a great entertainment. This pits them frequently against the expansionist efforts of the Aurian Empire, and gives them a certain love-hate relationship with the traggen.

Kixian Notes:
* An insectoid race who evolved on a jungle-like death world that happened to be rich in reagents and mutagens useful in flesh-crafting, the kixians developed an instinctive knack for bio-modding.
* A social species, kixians are monogamy-preferring breeders who form tight social groups called "packs" during adolescence, which work together to support each other, including helping breeding members of the pack raise children.
* Their mutual use of flesh-crafting has led to an unusually strong bond between kixians and aelfar, although the latter can take a somewhat patronizingly "maternal" outlook that the kixians privately find annoying.
* Exposure to the wider galaxy and the prevalence of the humanoid form has led to philosophy-based modding of the kixian race, dividing them into three subraces based on how much they feel they should change their bodies to match what is clearly a more universally useful design.

Jarill Notes:
* Conceptually, can be described as one part Quarian and one part Craftworld Eldar.
* Humanoid monotremes who were forced to flee their homeworld when their sun cooled with unnatural (by stellar standards) speeds, rendering it an icy tomb.
* Now exist in enormous fleets centered on planetoid-sized "WorldShips", which roam freely through the cosmos.
* Masters of arcanotechnology - the science-aspected sorcery of producing magical artifacts and items, which they use to secure trading rights wherever they go.
* Cultural belief is big on personal modesty; a face is something to be reserved for the most intimate of moments. Always go masked, and wear concealing robes or body-suits, depending on context.
* Prehensile tails are an important tool in their work, and a key part of their body language.
* Create artificial entities, "Exo-Daemons", more or less as magitek familiars. The mightiest of these, those responsible for running the WorldShips, are effectively man-made gods.

Paxian Notes:
* Ancient, peaceful race of humanoid plants.
* Were once a mighty empire, but fell from power and glory; are only just starting to make a resurgence.
* View themselves as "tenders of the galactic garden", due to their special affinity for sensing, tapping into and manipulating the galactic leylines. Seek to promote diplomacy, peace, understanding and harmony wherever they go.
* Take up a more sessile form in order to reproduce, which can only be done in places where the leyline energy is strong - usually a nexus of at least two leylines.

Drossian Notes:
* Barbaric, carnivorous offshoot race of the Paxians.
* Engineered themselves to be more warlike during "The Fall", but it backfired and reduced them to bloodthirsty savages.

Aurian Empire Notes:
* Ruled over by the "God Emperors" - five powerful figures based on Pathfinder's five species of Imperial Dragon.
* Chinese style bureaucratic empire; Emperors are on top, bureaucracy keeps everything running harmoniously, other races have their place.
* Rujin and Ki'rinii races were created from the Aurians as direct enforcers, making them the most valuable races.
* Embraces the "Oriental Adventures in Space" motif and mixes it with being "The Beastfolk Faction"; various vassal races are Oriental-themed/flavored beastman races, such as kitsunes, tanuki, hakutaku, mezu, etc.
* Borrows slightly from the T'au Empire; have a self-proclaimed Manifest Destiny to conquer the galaxy, but genuinely believe that they will do good things by doing so.
* Need to more closely examine and discuss the empire's vast array of vassal races.

Vanadiran Notes:
* Magically crafted daughters of the last few survivors of an ancient race of draconic felines; these "Clan-Mothers" are essentially demigods, who rule over the race's homeworld (Vanadira?)
* The Clan-Mothers literally give birth to their children, which cements a close bond.
* The vanadirans themselves can be described as "neo-barbarian catgirl amazons" - Amazonian, muscular human(ish) women with fur-covered, digitigrade legs ending in paw-like feet, cat-like ears atop their heads, a cat's tail at the base of their spine, slit-pupiled eyes that glow in the dark, cute little fangs, clawed fingers, wild-growing hair that sprouts from the shoulders and neck as well as the head, 80s style neon coloring.
* Vanadirans believe that their purpose is to thank their clan-mothers by leading interesting lives; they fight ceremonial wars amongst each other and go out to become adventurers or bandits in order to be able to create entertaining stories.
* Vanadirans may perhaps use hair length as a status symbol? The longer one's locks, the more skilled one is, because they've gone so long without getting it sheared off by a victorious rival?
* The vanadirans themselves can reproduce with males from other races, but can't produce males of their own race - they lack the right chromosomes. Xeno-fathered pregnancies with almost always produce a vanadiran daughter, or else a child (either sex, slightly favoring female births) of the father's race.

Honest Tiefling

2017-07-10, 06:01 PM

Sorry, was busy for a bit. I think we were on clerics/paladins/druids last we checked? Through I did pitch the idea of a Harvester Druid (An Oni/Oni-kin druid who feasted on the sap of a Veshy to obtain power), not sure if that was accepted yet.

Through that does bring us to the question of, what are those guys like? They're Space Orcs, but I think we can go a little farther then that. We can keep the bulk of them as space pirates/raiders, but I do wonder about a faction of civilized Traggenkin to show that the race is more dimensional.

Also, what are the slave races of the Aelfar? Player races? Some non-sapient race? Weaker races that are technically playable? Might be good material for a DM or someone looking for a build challenge.

And given the Origin of Vanadiran, let's call their homeworld...Frayir. Having people come from a country/planet named after their race has always bugged the crap out of me unless there is a good reason.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-07-10, 06:58 PM

Sorry, was busy for a bit. I think we were on clerics/paladins/druids last we checked? Through I did pitch the idea of a Harvester Druid (An Oni/Oni-kin druid who feasted on the sap of a Veshy to obtain power), not sure if that was accepted yet.
We sort of tend to drift randomly from topic to topic; mostly, I've been waiting for you to get back and comment on all the things I brought up the last time you were here. For example, the redrafted Oath of the Pyre Tenets.

And I'm pretty sure I said I could see "Harvesters" as Druids - a new Circle or not - who stem from traggenkin who drink Veshy sap to mutate themselves and gain access to the leylines.

Through that does bring us to the question of, what are those guys like? They're Space Orcs, but I think we can go a little farther then that. We can keep the bulk of them as space pirates/raiders, but I do wonder about a faction of civilized Traggenkin to show that the race is more dimensional.
That's kind of what the Dworg are supposed to be, but yeah, discussing Traggen, Dworg and maybe Oni is definitely a goal to set.

Also, what are the slave races of the Aelfar? Player races? Some non-sapient race? Weaker races that are technically playable? Might be good material for a DM or someone looking for a build challenge.
Mostly, an excuse for DMs to slot in races to the setting, either as PCs or monsters. For example, "Moldies" (renamed Vegepygmies) are a aelfar slave-race that went wrong and became a galactic nuisance - sort of a space zombie plague that crops up wherever the DM thinks is appropriate, you follow me?

And given the Origin of Vanadiran, let's call their homeworld...Frayir. Having people come from a country/planet named after their race has always bugged the crap out of me unless there is a good reason.
Frayir sounds like a good name to me.

Max_Killjoy

2017-07-11, 08:51 PM

Brainstorming, maybe have different means of FTL travel for different cultures/species.

Travel the leylines between points in space.
A web of warpgates / wormholes (might be one and the same as the above).
A drive that slips the ship into another "level" of reality/space, and has a visual effect like submerging a submarine, including the ability to "peek" back into normal space like using a periscope.
Spacefolding, requires powerful magic to warp the fabric of space and time.
Navigator-mages using a "wish engine" (Like, the wish spell, "I wish we were at ______")
Straight up teleportation.
Chaos-drives, drop the ship into another dimension; points in the other dimension move around, so that they're "next to" random parts of normal space, and moving to the right points to get to the places you want to go takes a special gift that only rare people have -- no one else really understands or can even stand to directly experience the other dimension, so other crew and passengers never "look out the window"

Max_Killjoy

2017-07-12, 01:36 PM

As for the details of space travel... well, I don't particularly have anything solid yet. I know that vessels are the norm, but on the other hand, I also like the image of various magical creatures that can literally be ridden between the stars - that's a very 80s motif, isn't it? To have celestial steeds or winged drakes or other, weirder beasties (remember Silverhawks, where the big bad rode a half-motorcycle half-space squid?) just feels... right, wouldn't you agree?

I'm suddenly thinking of Lobo riding a "chopper" through space.

The nature of space itself has to be different from reality to really make this sort of thing feasible -- just to "ride" to Earth's moon is equivalent to riding around Earth's equator almost 10 times. To "ride" from here to the nearest star is about 933 million times around the equator.

It's your setting, never let my hyper-analytical nature discourage the "zeitgeist" you want for it, but understand where it needs to be fundamentally different.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-07-12, 07:24 PM

I'm suddenly thinking of Lobo riding a "chopper" through space.

The nature of space itself has to be different from reality to really make this sort of thing feasible -- just to "ride" to Earth's moon is equivalent to riding around Earth's equator almost 10 times. To "ride" from here to the nearest star is about 933 million times around the equator.

It's your setting, never let my hyper-analytical nature discourage the "zeitgeist" you want for it, but understand where it needs to be fundamentally different.

Thanks... I think? I'm not entirely sure if you're respecting my wishes or gently chastising me for them here...

Brainstorming, maybe have different means of FTL travel for different cultures/species.

Travel the leylines between points in space.
A web of warpgates / wormholes (might be one and the same as the above).
A drive that slips the ship into another "level" of reality/space, and has a visual effect like submerging a submarine, including the ability to "peek" back into normal space like using a periscope.
Spacefolding, requires powerful magic to warp the fabric of space and time.
Navigator-mages using a "wish engine" (Like, the wish spell, "I wish we were at ______")
Straight up teleportation.
Chaos-drives, drop the ship into another dimension; points in the other dimension move around, so that they're "next to" random parts of normal space, and moving to the right points to get to the places you want to go takes a special gift that only rare people have -- no one else really understands or can even stand to directly experience the other dimension, so other crew and passengers never "look out the window"

Alright, after giving it some thought, here's the system for FTL that I'm currently envisioning:

At its base, as a D&D setting, this universe is based on Magic, not Physics - the stars, for example, are enormous masses of pure Radiant energy that emanate from one-way portals out of the Elemental Chaos. The eventual healing of the portal is what causes a star to cool and shrink before dying. Black holes are enormous, unstable planar gates that can lead to anywhere in the multiverse, from the "planes we know" to parallel realities and more. Of course, being unstable means you're not very likely to survive the trip through the black hole in the first place.

The universe is suffused with a "luminiferous aether", a mystical substance - closest probably to plasma, if you had to compare it to any real-world element - that emanates from the Twisting Nether and permeates the material plane. This substance - let's call it the Phlogiston - travels many times faster than mere light does. The standard form of space travel is to attenuate one's physical mass to phlogiston, allowing one to move through it by partially de-synching one's self with the material universe.

"Starbeasts" can do this instinctively, a natural arcano-biological trait. Starjammers (a generic term for space-faring vessels) do this through the use of enchanted devices built into the vessel itself.

There are two ways of synching with the phlogiston. "Skimming" involves only lightly grasping the phlogiston, just enough to move at intense speeds. This is the slowest form of FTL in the setting - think of it as being analogous to the space-faring parts of Mass Effect 2, 3 and Andromeda - this is your "in-system travel speed". "Diving", as the name suggests, is to immerse one's vessel much deeper in the phlogiston. In this state, one's vessel exists halfway between the material plane and the nether plane; this drastically increases speed compared to skimming, but has its own drawbacks. For one, it's still comparatively slow - compare to the FTL method used in MEA to get from the Milky Way to Andromeda. It makes inter-system travel possible, but is not the fastest way of doing so, more or less akin to Warp Speed or Hyperspace from Star Trek and Star Wars. Secondly, it's not combat viable; taking damage whilst phlog-diving is extremely dangerous because of how it can disrupt the magical field; at best, you'd end up teleported to a random spot in the multiverse. At worst, your fragments will be scattered across the multiverse in a very quick but very painful death.

Phlogiston-travel is the norm throughout the galaxy. Miniaturization, though, is a problem; making the arcanotech you need to synch with the phlogiston is easy enough, but compacting it? That's harder. For example, if you want an analogue to Vulture's wing-pack from Spiderman: Homecoming that can phlog-skim? You'd need to be about as rich as Tony Stark. Want one that can phlog-dive? ...You could buy an Earth-like planet for that much. Personal, artificial phlog-capable transports are very much a sign of the wealthy and powerful; trained starbeasts are more common.

For much quicker travel, one uses Rift-Gates. These are, essentially, gargantuan, space-based teleportation circles that the various galactic powers create. These allow ships to instantly travel from one Rift-Gate to the other. Of course, one can only go between the gates that are linked to the network (and each network is normally guarded, to prevent sabotage by their enemies), and creating them takes a lot of time and money.

There are also Warp-Thrones; ship-based arcanotech that essentially allows a ship to teleport without needing a Rift-Gate. This is pretty much lost technology, so the only ships with this kind of tech are ancient relics from The Before Ages - or the Jarill WorldShips, but they guard access to Warp-Throne technology very carefully. Even then, blindly teleporting is a very dangerous gamble, so it's main use is in systems where you're familiar with the layout of the land.

These factors all contribute to make interstellar travel possible, but keep the galaxy a place of mystery and wonder; the uncharted regions aren't easy to get to, and even traveling between charted territory isn't perfectly instantaneous. Lot of plot materials that way, don't you think?

So, what do you all think?

Max_Killjoy

2017-07-12, 09:03 PM

Thanks... I think? I'm not entirely sure if you're respecting my wishes or gently chastising me for them here...

Very much the respecting.

And pointing out that sometimes, by my nature, I'm going to drain the magic out of something by analyzing it to death.

Alright, after giving it some thought, here's the system for FTL that I'm currently envisioning:

At its base, as a D&D setting, this universe is based on Magic, not Physics - the stars, for example, are enormous masses of pure Radiant energy that emanate from one-way portals out of the Elemental Chaos. The eventual healing of the portal is what causes a star to cool and shrink before dying. Black holes are enormous, unstable planar gates that can lead to anywhere in the multiverse, from the "planes we know" to parallel realities and more. Of course, being unstable means you're not very likely to survive the trip through the black hole in the first place.

The universe is suffused with a "luminiferous aether", a mystical substance - closest probably to plasma, if you had to compare it to any real-world element - that emanates from the Twisting Nether and permeates the material plane. This substance - let's call it the Phlogiston - travels many times faster than mere light does. The standard form of space travel is to attenuate one's physical mass to phlogiston, allowing one to move through it by partially de-synching one's self with the material universe.

"Starbeasts" can do this instinctively, a natural arcano-biological trait. Starjammers (a generic term for space-faring vessels) do this through the use of enchanted devices built into the vessel itself.

There are two ways of synching with the phlogiston. "Skimming" involves only lightly grasping the phlogiston, just enough to move at intense speeds. This is the slowest form of FTL in the setting - think of it as being analogous to the space-faring parts of Mass Effect 2, 3 and Andromeda - this is your "in-system travel speed". "Diving", as the name suggests, is to immerse one's vessel much deeper in the phlogiston. In this state, one's vessel exists halfway between the material plane and the nether plane; this drastically increases speed compared to skimming, but has its own drawbacks. For one, it's still comparatively slow - compare to the FTL method used in MEA to get from the Milky Way to Andromeda. It makes inter-system travel possible, but is not the fastest way of doing so, more or less akin to Warp Speed or Hyperspace from Star Trek and Star Wars. Secondly, it's not combat viable; taking damage whilst phlog-diving is extremely dangerous because of how it can disrupt the magical field; at best, you'd end up teleported to a random spot in the multiverse. At worst, your fragments will be scattered across the multiverse in a very quick but very painful death.

Phlogiston-travel is the norm throughout the galaxy. Miniaturization, though, is a problem; making the arcanotech you need to synch with the phlogiston is easy enough, but compacting it? That's harder. For example, if you want an analogue to Vulture's wing-pack from Spiderman: Homecoming that can phlog-skim? You'd need to be about as rich as Tony Stark. Want one that can phlog-dive? ...You could buy an Earth-like planet for that much. Personal, artificial phlog-capable transports are very much a sign of the wealthy and powerful; trained starbeasts are more common.

For much quicker travel, one uses Rift-Gates. These are, essentially, gargantuan, space-based teleportation circles that the various galactic powers create. These allow ships to instantly travel from one Rift-Gate to the other. Of course, one can only go between the gates that are linked to the network (and each network is normally guarded, to prevent sabotage by their enemies), and creating them takes a lot of time and money.

There are also Warp-Thrones; ship-based arcanotech that essentially allows a ship to teleport without needing a Rift-Gate. This is pretty much lost technology, so the only ships with this kind of tech are ancient relics from The Before Ages - or the Jarill WorldShips, but they guard access to Warp-Throne technology very carefully. Even then, blindly teleporting is a very dangerous gamble, so it's main use is in systems where you're familiar with the layout of the land.

These factors all contribute to make interstellar travel possible, but keep the galaxy a place of mystery and wonder; the uncharted regions aren't easy to get to, and even traveling between charted territory isn't perfectly instantaneous. Lot of plot materials that way, don't you think?

So, what do you all think?

I'll mull it over some more.

First thought, I'm happy that the Jarill are the ones with the "teleportation" tech, it gives them another edge to explain their free movement and self-sovereignty in a galaxy full of secret-science control-freak superstates, marauding warmongers, and catpeople.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-07-12, 10:50 PM

First thought, I'm happy that the Jarill are the ones with the "teleportation" tech, it gives them another edge to explain their free movement and self-sovereignty in a galaxy full of secret-science control-freak superstates, marauding warmongers, and catpeople.

I have to confess, I find it hilarious that alongside the traggen, aelfar and aurians, you mention vanadirans as one of the great and terrible threats that this galaxy has to offer. :P

Max_Killjoy

2017-07-13, 09:09 AM

I have to confess, I find it hilarious that alongside the traggen, aelfar and aurians, you mention vanadirans as one of the great and terrible threats that this galaxy has to offer. :P

The humor was somewhat intentional... plus they're heavy-metal-catgirls, they're dangerous as hell, man. :smallwink:

On the subject of riding starbeasts and the nature of space... what's the air situation?

You mention ships... given the feel you're going for, I'm guessing these aren't "age of sail" looking things? Since you've heard of the Tau, have you looked at Battlefleet Gothic? The aesthetic of some of those ships might fit what you're going for on some of the cultures.

I'm trying to find images of ships I saw somewhere that where long and angular and pointy all over and had big triangular "rigging" sticking off, that might also fit the spacerock heavy metal look you want.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-07-13, 12:57 PM

The humor was somewhat intentional... plus they're heavy-metal-catgirls, they're dangerous as hell, man. :smallwink:

Hah! Too true. You know, maybe it'd be helpful if I started putting together "codexes" for the Jarill and Vanadirans at least? Like... check out my Malebolge topic, you'll see what I mean.

On the subject of riding starbeasts and the nature of space... what's the air situation?

My kneejerk reaction is that, by default, there's no air in space. Starbeasts have the ability to "breathe" phlogiston, but bestowing this on a rider is a rare trait. For the most part, you need magic, either in the form of a potion (ala Lovecraft's Byakhees and Space-Mead, at least in Call of Cthulhu) or a talisman. It's another reason why star-ships are the dominant form of travel; much easier to install air-generators into them.

You mention ships... given the feel you're going for, I'm guessing these aren't "age of sail" looking things? Since you've heard of the Tau, have you looked at Battlefleet Gothic? The aesthetic of some of those ships might fit what you're going for on some of the cultures.

I'm trying to find images of ships I saw somewhere that where long and angular and pointy all over and had big triangular "rigging" sticking off, that might also fit the spacerock heavy metal look you want.

I'm familiar with Battlefleet Gothic, to an extent, and yeah, some of them could fit. I think the Dominion Ships of 4e's "Secrets of the Plane Above" are a good basis to start from as well, since whilst they do have an obvious "boat" basis, they look designed for traveling through the sea of stars as well. Unfortunately, my google-fu is weak, so I can't show them to you.

Honest Tiefling

2017-07-13, 03:05 PM

The humor was somewhat intentional... plus they're heavy-metal-catgirls, they're dangerous as hell, man. :smallwink:

I for one, would be very sad if the pink mohawked cat-women with leopard print 80's fashion were NOT a major threat.

As for space travel, I think it's better to work backwards. We need to strike a balance between having a fleet show up whenever the PCs decide to play Space Pirate, and having to spend months near the same dang planet. And the fact that the PCs and anyone with any sense of tactics would be tempted to sacrifice thousands of lives to get a hold of a Warp Throne.

Suggestions:
1) Phlogiston/Aether (The latter was space air in Lovecraft, I think?) allows FTL travel, but travelling between star systems is still slow, to explain why space piracy is still a thing.
2) Need some sort of 'Impluse Drive' ala Star Trek for shorter voyages
3) Rift gates exist...But the name rift implies a portal somewhere. Maybe an additional issue is that well, it sorta maybe kinda goes through a nasty dimension so only very well-made, maintained ships with a skillful crew can successfully use them. Other ships risk damage, destruction and showing up in the wrong spot. But what race would control them? I nominate the Veshy. They're peaceful, neutral and probably smart enough to levy the gates to get people to calm down and listen to diplomacy. Else, I'd say the Jarill is the best option, due to their technomancy. Or split the difference, and have the Veshy have naturally occurring plant rift gates on planets, and the Jarill figured out a way to make giant space ones because **** planets.
4) Warp Thrones should exist, but in my opinion not be operational at the beginning of the campaign. Let them be legendary loot one spends a campaign

As for the notes I missed...

1) Kixians are Monogamous...Why? As a contrast to the Aelfar, who probably have the Matriarchs take on many different lovers for genetic diversity in their offspring?

2) Veshy and Traggen-Kin need to be tackled next.

3) I think we need a better write up on the Aurians. I forget if we were going with the soul magic option or not. They seem VERY complex.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-07-13, 03:49 PM

I for one, would be very sad if the pink mohawked cat-women with leopard print 80's fashion were NOT a major threat.
I can't tell if you're joking or not here...

As for space travel, I think it's better to work backwards. We need to strike a balance between having a fleet show up whenever the PCs decide to play Space Pirate, and having to spend months near the same dang planet. And the fact that the PCs and anyone with any sense of tactics would be tempted to sacrifice thousands of lives to get a hold of a Warp Throne.
I do agree that, in general, things operating at the Speed of Plot is best. We want the options that facilitate Plot, not hinder it.

Suggestions:
1) Phlogiston/Aether (The latter was space air in Lovecraft, I think?) allows FTL travel, but travelling between star systems is still slow, to explain why space piracy is still a thing.
...You mean, exactly like what I said the standard Phlogiston-drives already accomplish?

2) Need some sort of 'Impluse Drive' ala Star Trek for shorter voyages
...Again, do you mean like the "skimming" method of phlogiston sailing, which is literally "as fast as the player's ship in the planet-to-planet segments of Mass Effect"? That's the whole point of it; to be a "slow" FTL speed for planet-to-planet travel.

3) Rift gates exist...But the name rift implies a portal somewhere. Maybe an additional issue is that well, it sorta maybe kinda goes through a nasty dimension so only very well-made, maintained ships with a skillful crew can successfully use them. Other ships risk damage, destruction and showing up in the wrong spot. But what race would control them? I nominate the Veshy. They're peaceful, neutral and probably smart enough to levy the gates to get people to calm down and listen to diplomacy. Else, I'd say the Jarill is the best option, due to their technomancy. Or split the difference, and have the Veshy have naturally occurring plant rift gates on planets, and the Jarill figured out a way to make giant space ones because **** planets.
Eh... no, I don't think so. The whole point of Rift-Gates as I created them was to be a safe, stable way of easily getting around the galaxy at high speeds, ala the Mass Relays.

That's not to say they're entirely risk free. After all, you need to guard them against saboteurs; don't want an enemy hacking into your network so they can teleport through your network into your backyard. Or shut the network down. Or destabilize the gates so they turn into black holes, or huge portals to another plane.

All of the major galactic powers - the Veshy, the Aurians, the Aelfar - they've got their own separate networks.

4) Warp Thrones should exist, but in my opinion not be operational at the beginning of the campaign. Let them be legendary loot one spends a campaign
Which is pretty much exactly what I said a few posts above; they're literally Legendary tier loot. You're not getting your hands on one by default unless that's the campaign's key plot hook. The Jarill won't share their tech, nobody else can make them, so you gotta find them.

As for the notes I missed...

1) Kixians are Monogamous...Why? As a contrast to the Aelfar, who probably have the Matriarchs take on many different lovers for genetic diversity in their offspring?
Pretty sure we established this a couple of pages ago? I think mostly it was to avoid the cliche of mantids practicing sexual and internecine cannibalism.

2) Veshy and Traggen-Kin need to be tackled next.
True... I don't know, maybe it'd be better if we picked one race at a time, covered all that needed figuring out, and I did up a Codex - literally a "Player's Guide to X" writeup - for that race before moving on?

Personally, I'd prefer to tackle the Jarill or Vanadirans first with such a treatment, just because they're the most interesting to me at this point in time.

3) I think we need a better write up on the Aurians. I forget if we were going with the soul magic option or not. They seem VERY complex.
Yeah, the aurians were honestly a little hard to sum up. I forgot some stuff and... well, their conversation's been a bit of a mess. Don't suppose one of you would care to make a better cliff-notes summary?

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-07-14, 05:01 AM

So, I was doing a little mental planning of the Vanadiran codex and, long story short, does anyone know the name of the art style that Frank Frazetta, artist for a lot of Conan pinups & covers, used? I just think it'd be really fitting if that style of artwork, alongside the "pin-up pieces" in the back of many Conan comics, was the primary art style favored by Vanadiran painters, since "space pirate neo-barbarian catgirls" could practically come out of a pulp fantasy novel themselves.

Max_Killjoy

2017-07-14, 08:46 AM

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-07-15, 06:17 AM

Ah, well, thank you for looking, Max_Killjoy.

In the spirit of doing something useful, here's a more in-depth examination of the Aurian Empire... I will try to denominate clearly aspects that are things I am unsure of and want to discuss in greater detail, but, for now, take this as "fact" about the empire proper.

I can and will discuss and potentially change establish facts, if you guys call me out on something that you feel could be changed or should be changed or whatever. This is just the current draft and open to revision, you follow me?

I wanted to get everything done in one post, but I'm fading out over here, so I posted the first two segments - I'll write & post the Vassal Races segment when I wake up.

The Aurian Empire
A Brief Overview
The Aurian Empire is unique amongst the "powers" of the galaxy in that it is not a mono-racial faction.

The Aurian Empire refers to a group of five demi-divine dragons - in Pathfinder terms, a group of Great Wyrm Imperial Dragons, one from each of the five species, all with Mythic Ranks - who have established themselves as "God-Emperors" over a fairly vast swathe of the galaxy.

The Aurian Empire is an overarching culture, but it is is not, strictly speaking, a "race" in the way that Jarill or Aelfar or Vanadirans are.

The Aurian Empire's overarching theme is "Oriental Adventures", or what TVtropes would call "Far East" - a Cultural Chop-Suey of Japanese and Chinese themes, with other Southeast Asian elements for flavoring.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FarEast

It's secondary theme is "Beastfolk", as the most recogizable and PC-suitable yokai tend to be obake and hengeyokai. That's not to say that we can't add other yokai to the vassal races, if we can pull them off - for example, Tsukumogami-based Living Construct races...

Its tertiary theme is "Morally Gray Adversary" - their culture's sense of Manifest Destiny makes them easy to use for antagonistic purposes, but they're not pure evil and should have admirable, even good potrayals as possible. You can certainly play as an Aurian rebel or would-be reformer... but an Aurian Loyalist PC or even campaign shouldn't be impossible either.

Imperial Society
The fundamental "style" of the Aurian Empire is more or less based on medieval China: the God-Emperors on top, and a caste-based system below, with every caste having its designated place (farmer, soldier, merchant, etc) and an enormous and powerful bureaucracy that helps keep the empire running.

This "Celestial Bureaucracy" motif goes all the way to the top; to borrow some Japanese terminology, not only are the Daimyos of Underworld, Forest, Sea and Sky in charge of different aspects of the empire, they all are ultimately subordinate to the wishes of the Shogun of Heaven.

The God-Emperors as a whole can be summed up as "Well Intentioned Extremists". They wish to bring peace, order and harmony to the galaxy... and the best way to do that, they have decided, is to conquer the galaxy and make other races either learn to fit into their place or be destroyed.

Manifest Destiny is a cornerstone of imperial society, as a result of this. Compare them to the T'au from Warhammer 40,000: good intentions, kind of arrogant, can be blinded by their own holiness - or just indoctrinated, depending on precise place in the empire.

Cultural assimilation is preferred to annihilation. Although the Emperors do demand deification from their subjects, they have realized over long centuries that forcing a total cultural erasure tends to merely delay assimilation. As such, official imperial policy is that conquered peoples are allowed to maintain as many of their original cultural traits as possible, so long as these do not contradict with mandatory imperial culture.

Particularly, in religious practices, whilst some extremists do push a more hardline interpretation, policy from the Emperors themselves is that the faithful merely need to insert the Emperors into their existing pantheon at the top. The Emperor of Forest would rather a conquered people be educated to see their existing nature gods as his direct servants than have to butcher them until they forsake their old gods in favor of him exclusively.

The Emperors maintain a stranglehold on magical power in the Aurian Empire. Aurians are taught that magic flows from the God-Emperors, and that all of its powers are only availible because the Emperors have generously gifted them to the galaxy.

For this reason, Clerics proliferate in the Aurian Empire, and are the dominant form of magic user. Of wizards, theurges re the most common, for reasons that should be obvious.

Non-theurge wizards still have a strong religious bent; different traditions are considered to draw upon and require devotion to different emperors.

Sorcerers are also pretty common, but are culturally encouraged to think of themselves as "favored souls" - not literally the subclass of that name, but believing themselves to have been ordained by the Emperors for a destined purpose.

Artificers mostly pursue the path of the Alchemist.

Whilst quite magically adept, the Aurian Empire favors a more "esoteric" approach to magitek than the Jarill would. For example, an airshield generator made by a jarill would probably be an intricately assembled engine-like affair of mechanical pieces and crystals. The aurian equivalent would be a jade tablet inscribed with prayers to the Emperor of Sky, or a jeweled bonsai tree.

The Aurian Emperors
The Aurian Emperors are demi-divine beings who resemble oriental dragons. Like the Vanadiran Clan-Mothers, they are survivors from "The Lost Age", a previous era of different races that were all but wiped out by some great calamity - sort of akin to 40k's "War in Heaven" (Old Ones vs. Necrons) or the effects of the Reaper Cycle in Mass Effect.

The Emperors collectively wield powerful and unique magical abilities. Each has their own speciality, bt they all share a common aspect to manipulate spiritual energies - the stuff of the soul itself.

That said, the Emperor of Heaven secures total dominion in the empire because this dragon has exclusive access to the ultimate power of soul-magic: the creation of new souls. The Emperor of the Underworld can resurrect and reincarnate, the Emperor of Forest can create new forms of animal and plants, but only the Emperor of Heaven can create completely new, thinking, intelligent beings from nothing. The other Emperors can usually twist and modify races to better suit their dominion, but only the Emperor of Heaven create entirely new races from scratch, as with the Ryujin and the Ki'rinii.

The Emperors are very powerful, but not truly immortal. They rely on a special alchemical formula, "the Elixir Vitae", which sustains and rejuvenates them. They won't die because of missing a dose, but without regular access to it, they would slowly weaken, losing power and vitality.

Honest Tiefling

2017-07-15, 05:58 PM

I can't tell if you're joking or not here...

I'm really not. Having a campaign of fighting (or being) 80's punk cat-girl barbarians sounds fun to me!

...You mean, exactly like what I said the standard Phlogiston-drives already accomplish?

Well, yes. I meant the whole suggestion, not the bits of it.

Eh... no, I don't think so. The whole point of Rift-Gates as I created them was to be a safe, stable way of easily getting around the galaxy at high speeds, ala the Mass Relays.

That's not to say they're entirely risk free. After all, you need to guard them against saboteurs; don't want an enemy hacking into your network so they can teleport through your network into your backyard. Or shut the network down. Or destabilize the gates so they turn into black holes, or huge portals to another plane.

Hrm. That does make sense, that they're dangerous already. The more I think about it, I think this is a good idea. Rift Gates would exist, but nowhere near a battlefront or frontier. So you can have your jet-setting space nobles and all of the lovely adventures (which, technically, feel more 60's/70's to me, due to the Bond influence, but close enough?) more that would make, but I doubt many people would want such a thing anywhere near a dangerous place. So, the frontiers are not only dangerous, but take a longer time.

All of the major galactic powers - the Veshy, the Aurians, the Aelfar - they've got their own separate networks.

I wonder, is it possible to hack into the Rift Gates operated by another species? You did mention it, but I'd like to know more about it, since there is a 100% chance a PC will try to do it.

Which is pretty much exactly what I said a few posts above; they're literally Legendary tier loot. You're not getting your hands on one by default unless that's the campaign's key plot hook. The Jarill won't share their tech, nobody else can make them, so you gotta find them.

Which leads to the question of why the Jarill aren't the dominant military force, if they can move around as they please and take what they want. Or why there hasn't been an alliance to secure one.

Pretty sure we established this a couple of pages ago? I think mostly it was to avoid the cliche of mantids practicing sexual and internecine cannibalism.

Which I don't disagree with. Starting to think you should make a google doc, since shifting through several pages is difficult. I'm a crummy writer, so I am not going to offer my sub-par writing skills.

So! Next race! Traggen! I think we need to tackle the first issue, in that their gender politics are quite...Orcish. Perhaps as a suggestion, they have four genders much like the side-botched lizard (http://humoncomics.com/side-blotched-lizard). (warning: That particular page is SFW, but other pages of that comic are not). See, outsiders just assume all males work as the Alpha (orange) males, as they are the most powerful and the most likely to start raiding other places to get more stuff to have a bigger harem. And most outsiders just assume that the gamma (yellow) males are females. Still quite sexist, but a little less likely to be an assumption of any beliefs on our parts.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-07-15, 08:31 PM

I'm really not. Having a campaign of fighting (or being) 80's punk cat-girl barbarians sounds fun to me!
Oh, cool. I'm glad that you like them so much.

Hrm. That does make sense, that they're dangerous already. The more I think about it, I think this is a good idea. Rift Gates would exist, but nowhere near a battlefront or frontier. So you can have your jet-setting space nobles and all of the lovely adventures (which, technically, feel more 60's/70's to me, due to the Bond influence, but close enough?) more that would make, but I doubt many people would want such a thing anywhere near a dangerous place. So, the frontiers are not only dangerous, but take a longer time.
Precisely. The presence of a Rift-Gate basically denotes a "big city" sort of region. Plus, it plays into the "mysterious and dangerous border countries" feel of the frontiers, you know?

I wonder, is it possible to hack into the Rift Gates operated by another species? You did mention it, but I'd like to know more about it, since there is a 100% chance a PC will try to do it.
Yes, it is possible to hack Rift-Gates. Of course, this is not easy, what with the dedicated 24/7 guards, the layer after layer of protective spells, the inherent difficulty of understanding the underlying spell mechanics and how to tweak them...

Oh, and don't forget that if you screw it up, you have a very real chance of causing the Rift-Gate to destabilize and turn into a black hole whilst you're standing at ground zero.

Which leads to the question of why the Jarill aren't the dominant military force, if they can move around as they please and take what they want. Or why there hasn't been an alliance to secure one.
As I said in my earlier post, teleporting isn't entirely perfect - blind jumps can be fatal, easily. It's a great defensive tool for their WorldShips, but for offensive purposes? Not so much. They're stuck mapping the galaxy out by way of phlogiston sailing, and using teleportation to retrace their steps.

Plus, the biggest reason is that they don't want to. Why would they want to fight wars with anyone? Dead people won't give them money for stuff they make. They don't want to take territory from anybody. War is literally no purpose in their society.

That said, their teleporting abilities do give them a distinct combat edge, which is why no other power has managed to conquer them, despite how enticing having exclusive access to their stuff would be.

Which I don't disagree with. Starting to think you should make a google doc, since shifting through several pages is difficult. I'm a crummy writer, so I am not going to offer my sub-par writing skills.
My internet speed refreshes in about 18 hours, so I do intend to start up a google-doc for this project as a whole... although I would appreciate if you clarify exactly what you think it should be used for, because I have a sneaking suspicion we have different intentions/plans/ideas in mind.

So! Next race! Traggen! I think we need to tackle the first issue, in that their gender politics are quite...Orcish. Perhaps as a suggestion, they have four genders much like the side-botched lizard (http://humoncomics.com/side-blotched-lizard). (warning: That particular page is SFW, but other pages of that comic are not). See, outsiders just assume all males work as the Alpha (orange) males, as they are the most powerful and the most likely to start raiding other places to get more stuff to have a bigger harem. And most outsiders just assume that the gamma (yellow) males are females. Still quite sexist, but a little less likely to be an assumption of any beliefs on our parts.
I'm not entirely sure we should move on to Traggen just yet. Like I keep saying, maybe it'd be helpful to the project if we actually spent some time putting together and filling out the details for the races we've talked about to this point before charging off to new ones?

That said... I'm not really digging that suggestion, sorry.

Honest Tiefling

2017-07-15, 08:45 PM

Oh, and don't forget that if you screw it up, you have a very real chance of causing the Rift-Gate to destabilize and turn into a black hole whilst you're standing at ground zero.

Not sure I'd go with this, because it would mean that a VERY dedicated team of saboteurs could basically salt the earth. I think the idea of ripping the world and gate apart would make for a very interesting scenario of looting the remnants of a Rift Gate explosion.

Remember, if you fluff it, the PCs WILL weaponize it.

As I said in my earlier post, teleporting isn't entirely perfect - blind jumps can be fatal, easily. It's a great defensive tool for their WorldShips, but for offensive purposes? Not so much. They're stuck mapping the galaxy out by way of phlogiston sailing, and using teleportation to retrace their steps.

Plus, the biggest reason is that they don't want to. Why would they want to fight wars with anyone? Dead people won't give them money for stuff they make. They don't want to take territory from anybody. War is literally no purpose in their society.

Okay, makes sense. Why are they so peaceful? Do they have good access to resources? Maybe I'm just a touch cynical.

That said, their teleporting abilities do give them a distinct combat edge, which is why no other power has managed to conquer them, despite how enticing having exclusive access to their stuff would be.

That's...Something that definitely needs to be a thing. Yeah, I could see it being a way to explain why people haven't ganged up on them yet to steal their stuff.

My internet speed refreshes in about 18 hours, so I do intend to start up a google-doc for this project as a whole... although I would appreciate if you clarify exactly what you think it should be used for, because I have a sneaking suspicion we have different intentions/plans/ideas in mind.

Either a write up of the setting as is, or just a 'codex' of sorts for the races thus discussed.

I'm not entirely sure we should move on to Traggen just yet. Like I keep saying, maybe it'd be helpful to the project if we actually spent some time putting together and filling out the details for the races we've talked about to this point before charging off to new ones?

Fair point. Which race do we need to go back to? I think the Aelfar/Kixian/Vanadirans were off to a good start. The Aurian empire? I think we got a bit side tracked with them.

That said... I'm not really digging that suggestion, sorry.

Hey, they can't all be winners!

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-07-15, 10:56 PM

Not sure I'd go with this, because it would mean that a VERY dedicated team of saboteurs could basically salt the earth. I think the idea of ripping the world and gate apart would make for a very interesting scenario of looting the remnants of a Rift Gate explosion.

Remember, if you fluff it, the PCs WILL weaponize it.
Point taken. Basically, I was trying to say that Rift-hacking is difficult in the extreme and can go hideously wrong.

Okay, makes sense. Why are they so peaceful? Do they have good access to resources? Maybe I'm just a touch cynical.
Why would they need to fight? Territory means nothing to them - they fly wherever they want to go. Resources? Besides trade, which is very good for them, being... whatever the term is, space-farers gives them access to the vast and easily accessible mineral wealth of the uncharted regions. Conquest? They don't want to live on sessile planets, so why shed all that blood for them? Honor? They're not traggen, they don't glorify war and killing or make it synonymous with strength and power. With those primary reasons to fight over anything gone, all that's left is self-defense.

That's...Something that definitely needs to be a thing. Yeah, I could see it being a way to explain why people haven't ganged up on them yet to steal their stuff.
Indeed, which is one of the big reasons why I figured on giving it to them.

Either a write up of the setting as is, or just a 'codex' of sorts for the races thus discussed.
Huh. Not so different to what I had planned. Well, when the document is set up, I'll share it here and hopefully we can reshape whatever results into something more legible.

Fair point. Which race do we need to go back to? I think the Aelfar/Kixian/Vanadirans were off to a good start. The Aurian empire? I think we got a bit side tracked with them.
I... don't really know. I still need to fix up the Aurian "list of stuff we know". Really, it depends on what you want; I was thinking I could pick one of the first three and try and do a first draft racial codex for them, just so we can have a clearer view of what they look like so far and where their weak spots might be.

Hey, they can't all be winners!
Thank you for understanding. We will discuss traggen genders/sexuality when we get to them, I promise.

Max_Killjoy

2017-07-15, 11:13 PM

What you're saying about the Jarill / "scavvers" is exactly what I was thinking about why they haven't conquered or been conquered.

They're impossible to pin down, and their homes can pretty much vanish without a trace. Other than their mining operations for the duration of use, they have nothing they can't run off with at a moment's notice.

They don't bother taking planets, planets are places where you need to dig the useful stuff out of holes in the dirt, and then haul it back up a gravity well. Space is full of places no one else wants where there are asteroids and comets full of all the stuff the Jarill need to make new things for use and trade, rocks and comets that the Jarill are better than anyone else at mining, but without the "messy" planets that draw in all the "mudder" cultures.

They don't need to take stuff from anyone else, there's always someplace else to get stuff. Space is really big and full of places no one else wants to bother with.

And for the "big governments", there's more incentive to interact peacefully with the Jarill than there is to start a war with them. War with the Jarill means they stop trading with you... and they're the masters of the revenge strike, popping in to your system, dropping kinetic strikes on your planets (big rocks going fast), and then going away before you can do anything about it.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-07-16, 04:46 AM

Very good points, Max_Killjoy.

Aurian Vassal Races
I'll freely admit that not a lot of attention has been specifically focused on any one vassal race, so these notes are going to come off as pretty bare-bones. Each needs some more detailed fleshing out in the future.

Also, whilst we have discussed these sporadically throughout the last couple of pages, a lot of these notes are ideas I just came up with now.

Kitsune
Elegant, quick-witted, charming and sly, kitsunes are mostly useful to the empire in the role of secret police, rooting out criminals and subversives of all natures and crimes.

Tanuki
The tanuki are legendary for their skills as alchemists, brewers, chefs and party animals.

They may have a strong connection to the Elixir Vitae; either they're the only ones trusted with making it, or its primary ingredient grows on their homeworld, we haven't really decided which.

One possibility I brought up is that, in reflection of their strongly male identity in mythology, tanuki in this setting may have an over-abundance of males. Now, this is a potentially troubling idea, so I want to discuss with you guys first whether it makes sense to start with.

The other big thing needing discussing here is, if that is the case, then why?

Originally, I suggested that the Aurian Emperors may have modded tanuki to have fewer females in a way to exercise greater control over the race - but, I'm wondering if this isn't too hamfistedly evil a method. After all, there are other options.

For a start, tanuki could just be naturally "alien" in their genders. Either males are just naturally more common than females - something that does happen in real life species as well as fictious aliens - or they have some alien gender(s) that means that, despite reproducing on their own just fine, most/all of them have their most infamously masculine physical trait (or at least seem to have it).

Or, if we keep the "artificially induced gender disparity" thing, it could be something the tanuki did to themselves and which, in a display of how little the Aurian Emperorers care so long as you toe the line, the Empire doesn't care enough about to step in and fix. Under this route, it could either be a case of patriarchy shooting itself in the foot - the classic "if everybody's having sons, then there's no daughters to wed those sons too for to make grandkids" dilemma that is so infamously afflicting China and India today - or an example of Female Misogynist Matriarchy. The "tanuki were patriarchal, used alchemy to make sons more reliably born, but lost control of the potion and haven't been able to come up with an antidote yet" version makes more logical sense, honestly.

Imori
In a nutshell, the Imori can be summed up as "samurai lizardfolk", although these comparatively small, sleek reptilians have more in common with skinks or geckoes than the hulking, craggy, primordial lizardfolk of other settings.

Imori are valuable to the Aurian Empire because they are the primary militaristic branch of the empire. Already having a militaristic culture that worshipped strength as embodied in martial prowes, discipline and loyalty, the imori clans were easily assimilated into the military of the Aurian Empire.

One of the key elements binding their loyalty to the Empire is their admiration for the Ryujin, who are to Imori what, stereotypically, elves are to humans; more accurately, it's the promise that a worthy imori, one who has proven himself or herself in battle, may receive the coveted honor of being anointed in dragon's blood, earning the transformation from an imori into a ryujin - or at least the advancement of their heir, should their worth be established post-mortem.

Note: In the thread, we discussed the idea of a hiearchy of different reptilian warriors. On reflection, I thought that sounded a little implausibly convoluted; I think lizardfolk foot soldiers seeking to win glory and be promoted to dragonfolk samurai is simpler, easier and more concise, yes? Plus, in at least Chinese mythology, dragons are so magical that they can easily transform other races - hence the (oft-cut) segment from Journey to the West where Monkey and friends need a dragon's urine for medicine (don't ask) and the dragon complains he can't even take a leak in the river without turning some random carp into new dragons.

An idea I brought up that nobody really commented on was the possibility that, in recognition of the gecko's tail-shedding, tail length could be exaggerated amongst imori, and its length a source of pride and status - if you commit a wrongdoing, or lose a duel, or whatever, the punishment is so much of your tail.

Likewise, imori could be a species which is egalitarian, but where females are larger, recognizing the real-world sexual dimorphism of lizards.

Gyokutans
Rabbitfolk who mostly serve the empire as its breadbasket, producing food and drink that is distributed throughout the empire to keep its population fed.

Original plan for these guys is that they are a comparatively recent addition to the Empire, for an obligatory "Aurian rebel/freedom fighter" PC source, but... I don't know, maybe they don't make sense that way?

Mujina
Steadfast, stubborn and expert diggers, the mujina are essentially "the dwarves" of the Aurian Empire if not the setting as a whole, being masters of stonework and metalwork.

Itachi
The itachi are a fast-moving, agile and predatory species from a densely forested world. Though useful to the Empire as couriers and rangers, they have long lamented the magical practices that they were forced to give up by the Empire. There is a profound rebellious streak amongst the itachi, and they fall easily into roles such as rebel, smuggler and assassin.

Kawauso
Playful and carefree, the kawauso may be an offshoot of the itachi, either evolved to prey upon the riverways and oceans of their world, or else remolded to serve the will of the Emperor of Sea. Though many live a humble life providing aquaculture to feed the Empire, their natural aquatic instincts also translate well to star-ships and they are some of the best pilots in the Imperial Space Navy.

Jorogumo/Tsuchigumo
A highly mysterious and enigmatic race, which mainly believe does not actually exist. Jorogumo, reputedly, serve as both a source of enchanted silk garb and deadly assassins and ninja. Tsuchigumo are a rare mutant offshoot of jorogumo, supposedly bred to serve as powerful, terrible warriors.

Bakeneko/Nekomata/Kasha
The source of great enmity between the Aurian Empire and the Vanadirans, the Bakeneko are descendants of former Vanadirans captured and "reeducated" into the services of the Empire. The three different species represent different forms of mutation from the Vanadiran base-stock; Bakenekos are the most common, Nekomatas are believed to descend from Vanadiran witches, and Kasha are a specialized strain bred by the Emperor of Underworld.

Mezu
A violent and primitive race of beastfolk, mezurin (or whatever we deign to name them) resemble, for lack of better words, a cross between a humanoid horse and an anthropomorphic wolf, creating something with fundamentally horse-like features, but with predatory fangs, a billowing tail, and half-hoof half-claw paws for feet.

It's unknown if mezurin are a conquered race or a created one, but it is known that they have replaced the onstable and unpredictable oni as the Empire's heavy troopers, due to their ruggedness and affinity for all manner of rough terrin. They are also heavily used as guards, particularly in regards slave-labor camps(?) and penal legions.

Note: In the mythology, the Mezu was literally an oni servitor of the gods of hell with a horse's face. Perhaps we can cross-pollinate with the Mares of Diomedes for racial & cultural expansion?

Hakutaku
Three-eyed ox-people (we need to establish if they re human-faced or ox-faced), the hakutaku have a strong, natural affinity for magic and a culture that values learning, scholasticism, peace and magic. They are of great value to the Empire as sages, mystics, teachers and scholars, although they do have something of a rivalry with the ki'rinii.

Oni
Created by magically mutating captured traggen raiders, the oni were the backbone of the Aurian Empire's military might for some time. However, the process could never eliminate the fundamental traggen nature of their creations. Rowdy, wild, chaotic, the oni would not bow to their makers, and so were ultimately discarded in favor of the ryujin.

Precise differeces between oni and traggen that don't amount to cosmetics still need to be established.

It's possible, even probable, that even after having been discarded, the oni still serve the Empire indirectly, as their depredations are easy justification for the Empire to annex vulnerable worlds under pretext of assistance, or at least to cover the deployment of spies and secret agents.

Ryujin
One of the two most high-ranked races in the Empire, the Ryujin are humanoid dragons born from the blood of the God-Emperors. They hold absolute authority in the empire, forming the primary source of aristocrats, and being elevated in rank by virtue of their birthright. Think of how, in Exalted, the Dragon-Blooded Clans are the premier aristocrats of their world, even if there are non-Dragon-Blood nobles as well.

Visually, Ryujin have a semblance to dragonborn, their nearest analogue in most worlds. However, their forms are different, representing their Imperial Dragon ancestry, with slender, almost serpentine builds, fluted horns and almost leonic snouts compared to the more beak-like maws of the common dragonborn.

There are five distinct subspecies of Ryujin, one for each God-Emperor. Though on paper all are equal, in truth, each considers itself slightly superior to its kinfolk.

Proud of their status, but aware of their vulnerabilities, ryujin jostle constantly for power, glory and honor. The games of the celestial court can be harsh and cruel, and more than one ryujin has been either forced to flee to the strange worlds beyond the imperial borders or deliberately exiled there.

Ki'rinii
Humanoid ki'rins, the ki'rinii are the second of the "great races" of the Aurian Empire, marked by their metaphysical and perhaps literal descent from the God-Emperors.

In contrast to the ryujin, who serve through military might, the ki'rinii are philosopher-priests and sages, bureaucrats and wise-women.

Honest Tiefling

2017-07-16, 12:56 PM

And for the "big governments", there's more incentive to interact peacefully with the Jarill than there is to start a war with them. War with the Jarill means they stop trading with you... and they're the masters of the revenge strike, popping in to your system, dropping kinetic strikes on your planets (big rocks going fast), and then going away before you can do anything about it.

I personally would find it amusing if the Jarill found it poetic to destroy planets with bits of other planets. What a sorry way to live!

Kitsune
Elegant, quick-witted, charming and sly, kitsunes are mostly useful to the empire in the role of secret police, rooting out criminals and subversives of all natures and crimes.

I feel as if this could go one of two ways: The first being that the Kitsune have a 'cover' in that they are usually servants of high-ranking castes or courtiers to disguise their activities. The other is that they have no cover because the Aurian empire isn't doing anything wrong! They are protecting their charges!

Also, Kitsune maybe should be able to shapeshift, (I know the Japanese version can, I think the Korean/Chinese version can as well?) so having a cover isn't as important to them because you never meet a Kitsune in Kitsune form on the job.

Tanuki
The tanuki are legendary for their skills as alchemists, brewers, chefs and party animals.

I feel like a strong culture of hospitality would be welcome here. Perhaps even an inclination to chubbier figures ala the WoW Pandaren.

Also, the idea of them being alchemists is a fun twist on one of their most famous abilities: Instead of turning leaves into money, they turn leaves into profit.

They may have a strong connection to the Elixir Vitae; either they're the only ones trusted with making it, or its primary ingredient grows on their homeworld, we haven't really decided which.

Doesn't even have to be decided. My proposal of them suffering a past event and turning (or being turned) to the empire still stands, even if the exact nature of their relationship to the Elixier Vitae is never defined. I would imagine that the areas PCs would likely come from (Roving bands of Vanadiran raiders, Space Pirates, or Gyokutoan rebels) wouldn't be likely to know the truth. I doubt most of the Empire would.

One possibility I brought up is that, in reflection of their strongly male identity in mythology, tanuki in this setting may have an over-abundance of males. Now, this is a potentially troubling idea, so I want to discuss with you guys first whether it makes sense to start with.

Personally, I don't think anyone will fault you for removing their gigantic....Yeah. Perhaps they are sexist? I don't know how the Aurians feel about that. On the one hand, I sorta like the idea that to the God-Emperors, the differences in sex for their mortal wards is really quite insignificant. I also like the idea that they are a practical, wise people, so instead of splitting up labor by sex it makes more sense to pay attention to personal aptitude then to squishy bits. It also presents a different approach then the Traggen, Aelfar, and Vanadirans. And if everyone is overly concerned with people's sex and what profession they have it does get a little weird.

It could also just be a matter of confusion. Fertility rituals were the ranking priest would don a costume to show exaggerated genitals would certainly confuse outsiders if they didn't realize that the priest was a female. Perhaps with a chubbier figure and thick, plush, fur it's a little harder to tell what is going on underneath. Or Tanuki, being Tanuki, like to spread their fertility rituals and shock outsiders at the same time and a figure or ritual associated with exaggerated genitals became a favored pastime of drunk Tanuki partying in other people's lands.

Another possibility is that unlike the real-life Tanuki, males have glossier, more colorful morphs. With the advent of genetic manipulation, women felt that men shouldn't be the only ones with a lovely golden or reddish coat instead of their drab gray. Having a procedure done to get the male coat is quite fashionable as well as confusing for outsiders. If the Tanuki are fond of pranks (as they well should be), they might find it quite amusing to go as far as to use perfumes to mask their sex to further confuse others as a joke.

Or, the event that caused them to be dependent on the Empire was perpetuated by the Aelfar, who unleashed a plague that caused them to be greatly sexually dimorphic. Males lost their sense of smell and became larger, while females retained their scent and remained small. Not all Tanuki go by such standards, but it is traditional for a female to handle the cooking, brewing and household affairs due to being less clumsy and having a sense of smell. Males are associated with money outside of the household, because being big and intimidating, they are less likely to get mugged. Males are more common outside of their home world not due to a sense of keeping the women home, but because they still dominate trade. Which would preserve the connection between a male tanuki's sack and his sack of money. (and of course, much like the Japanese Samurai class, traditional male tanuki hand over any money they made to their spouse.)

Unlike the other vassal races, the tanuki's sexually dimorphism might be seen as highly aberrant. Even if the Tanuki are quite dimorphic some females might find it funny or safer to pose (or given Tanuki powers, to become as strong) as a male. Tanuki do possess a shapeshifting ability in many stories, after all.

Originally, I suggested that the Aurian Emperors may have modded tanuki to have fewer females in a way to exercise greater control over the race - but, I'm wondering if this isn't too hamfistedly evil a method. After all, there are other options.

I feel it is quite evil, easy to mistake as political commentary that wasn't intended, and far too unsubtle for the God-Emperors. Also a good way to make the Tanuki defect.

For a start, tanuki could just be naturally "alien" in their genders. Either males are just naturally more common than females - something that does happen in real life species as well as fictious aliens - or they have some alien gender(s) that means that, despite reproducing on their own just fine, most/all of them have their most infamously masculine physical trait (or at least seem to have it).

Well, hyenas have a psuedo-phallus. If Tanuki are shape shifters maybe they just become male or male-ish when convenient. Stuck outside without a bathroom? Yeah, better become male. Want to write your name in the snow? No problem! Female bathroom has longer lines? Quick fix to that!

You rejected the idea of several male genders earlier, but what if that applied to the Tanuki? See, depending on the food the mother eats, her sons wind up as Alpha/Beta/Gamma males. Outsiders mistake females for gamma males, despite this class of males actually resembling females.

Or, if we keep the "artificially induced gender disparity" thing, it could be something the tanuki did to themselves and which, in a display of how little the Aurian Emperorers care so long as you toe the line, the Empire doesn't care enough about to step in and fix. Under this route, it could either be a case of patriarchy shooting itself in the foot - the classic "if everybody's having sons, then there's no daughters to wed those sons too for to make grandkids" dilemma that is so infamously afflicting China and India today - or an example of Female Misogynist Matriarchy. The "tanuki were patriarchal, used alchemy to make sons more reliably born, but lost control of the potion and haven't been able to come up with an antidote yet" version makes more logical sense, honestly.

Again, I would shy away from this unless you intend to make political discourse.

Shadow_in_the_Mist

2017-07-16, 02:44 PM

I personally would find it amusing if the Jarill found it poetic to destroy planets with bits of other planets. What a sorry way to live!
Agreed on that. It does make a lot of sense.

I feel as if this could go one of two ways: The first being that the Kitsune have a 'cover' in that they are usually servants of high-ranking castes or courtiers to disguise their activities. The other is that they have no cover because the Aurian empire isn't doing anything wrong! They are protecting their charges!

Also, Kitsune maybe should be able to shapeshift, (I know the Japanese version can, I think the Korean/Chinese version can as well?) so having a cover isn't as important to them because you never meet a Kitsune in Kitsune form on the job.
Hmm... hard to say; really, I'm kind of having a hard time picturing the kitsunes as an entire race of spies, couriers and diplomats.

If it helps, this is my current draft of the kitsune statblock in general D&D 5e play; apart from ignoring the Hengeyokai racial trait, because I'm not seeing the "turn into aniomal or human shape" being that useful in a setting this multi-racial, I feel it's pretty solid, and it may help us figure out what to do with kitsunes.

Kitsune
Ability Score Modifiers: +2 Charisma, +1 Intelligence
Size: Medium
Speed: 30 feet
Vision: Darkvision 60 feet
Foxfire: You know the Produce Flame and Dancing Light cantrips, which you can cast with Charisma. At 3rd level, you can cast Faerie Fire with this trait as a 1st level spell once per long rest, again using Charisma as your casting ability score.
Trickster’s Guile: You have Proficiency in Charisma (Deception).
Hengeyokai: Fox

Racial Feat: Fox Magic
Some kitsune are more magical than others. Through deliberate meditation or just the whims of fate, you are amongst those kitsune whose magical potency is naturally greater.
Prerequisite: Race - Kitsune
Effect: Choose one of the Tails listed below. At 3rd level, you gain the ability to cast a single spell determined by that tail. At 5th level, you gain a second spell also determined by that tail. Finally, at 9th level, you gain a third and final spell determined by that tail. Spells cast through this feat are cast at their minimum caster level and use Charisma as their spellcasting ability score. Spells cast through this feat can be used once, and then you must complete a long rest before you can cast them again.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Each time you select it, you must select a new Tail to gain.
Special: When you first select a Tail through this feat, you gain an additional tail. You gain a second tail when you gain a spell at 9th level due to this feat. Extra tails are visible in fox and hybrid form and may, at the DM’s discretion, grant you Advantage on Charisma checks against other yokai, who recognize their numbers as a sign of power.

Tail of Charm: Charm Person at 3rd level, Suggestion at 5th level, Hypnotic Pattern at 9th level.
Tail of Wrath: Blindness/Deafness at 5th level, Bestow Curse at 9th level.
Tail of Fire: Burning Hands at 3rd level, Aganazzar's Scorcher at 5th level, Fireball at 9th level.
Tail of Malice: Crown of Madness at 5th level, Fear at 9th level.

I feel like a strong culture of hospitality would be welcome here. Perhaps even an inclination to chubbier figures ala the WoW Pandaren.

Also, the idea of them being alchemists is a fun twist on one of their most famous abilities: Instead of turning leaves into money, they turn leaves into profit.
Both the hospitality-pride as a cultural quirk makes sense, as tanuki are generally portrayed as very friendly (or at least amusingly oafish) in myths, and the chubbier figure makes sense; tanuki in real life are pretty fluffy, and in mythology, the round belly of the tanuki is itself one of the reasons why it's a symbol of good fortune. Specifically, it represents being bold and calmly decisive.

Doesn't even have to be decided. My proposal of them suffering a past event and turning (or being turned) to the empire still stands, even if the exact nature of their relationship to the Elixier Vitae is never defined. I would imagine that the areas PCs would likely come from (Roving bands of Vanadiran raiders, Space Pirates, or Gyokutoan rebels) wouldn't be likely to know the truth. I doubt most of the Empire would.
Point... maybe drop that connection then, as you said.

Personally, I don't think anyone will fault you for removing their gigantic....Yeah. Perhaps they are sexist? I don't know how the Aurians feel about that. On the one hand, I sorta like the idea that to the God-Emperors, the differences in sex for their mortal wards is really quite insignificant. I also like the idea that they are a practical, wise people, so instead of splitting up labor by sex it makes more sense to pay attention to personal aptitude then to squishy bits. It also presents a different approach then the Traggen, Aelfar, and Vanadirans. And if everyone is overly concerned with people's sex and what profession they have it does get a little weird.

It could also just be a matter of confusion. Fertility rituals were the ranking priest would don a costume to show exaggerated genitals would certainly confuse outsiders if they didn't realize that the priest was a female. Perhaps with a chubbier figure and thick, plush, fur it's a little harder to tell what is going on underneath. Or Tanuki, being Tanuki, like to spread their fertility rituals and shock outsiders at the same time and a figure or ritual associated with exaggerated genitals became a favored pastime of drunk Tanuki partying in other people's lands.

Another possibility is that unlike the real-life Tanuki, males have glossier, more colorful morphs. With the advent of genetic manipulation, women felt that men shouldn't be the only ones with a lovely golden or reddish coat instead of their drab gray. Having a procedure done to get the male coat is quite fashionable as well as confusing for outsiders. If the Tanuki are fond of pranks (as they well should be), they might find it quite amusing to go as far as to use perfumes to mask their sex to further confuse others as a joke.

Or, the event that caused them to be dependent on the Empire was perpetuated by the Aelfar, who unleashed a plague that caused them to be greatly sexually dimorphic. Males lost their sense of smell and became larger, while females retained their scent and remained small. Not all Tanuki go by such standards, but it is traditional for a female to handle the cooking, brewing and household affairs due to being less clumsy and having a sense of smell. Males are associated with money outside of the household, because being big and intimidating, they are less likely to get mugged. Males are more common outside of their home world not due to a sense of keeping the women home, but because they still dominate trade. Which would preserve the connection between a male tanuki's sack and his sack of money. (and of course, much like the Japanese Samurai class, traditional male tanuki hand over any money they made to their spouse.)

Unlike the other vassal races, the tanuki's sexually dimorphism might be seen as highly aberrant. Even if the Tanuki are quite dimorphic some females might find it funny or safer to pose (or given Tanuki powers, to become as strong) as a male. Tanuki do possess a shapeshifting ability in many stories, after all.
Yeah... I think the real issue why I'm considering the matter is, one, my exposure to the decidedly less than PG-13 rated Golarion setting, and two, my familiarity with Trials in Tainted Space - don't ask about it here, and don't look it up; it's very much Not Safe For Work. It's... probably best to leave out that particular reference, because it's too easy to become magical realmy. I don't know, what do you think, Max_Killjoy? Or anyone else keeping up with this thread?

I feel it is quite evil, easy to mistake as political commentary that wasn't intended, and far too unsubtle for the God-Emperors. Also a good way to make the Tanuki defect.
Aggred; on reflection, it just does not make sense.

Well, hyenas have a psuedo-phallus. If Tanuki are shape shifters maybe they just become male or male-ish when convenient. Stuck outside without a bathroom? Yeah, better become male. Want to write your name in the snow? No problem! Female bathroom has longer lines? Quick fix to that!

You rejected the idea of several male genders earlier, but what if that applied to the Tanuki? See, depending on the food the mother eats, her sons wind up as Alpha/Beta/Gamma males. Outsiders mistake females for gamma males, despite this class of males actually resembling females.
I appreciate the sentiments, but... nah, neither really feels right for a tanuki.

Again, I would shy away from this unless you intend to make political discourse.
I don't know... I do get the logic that maybe it's best to just remove the testicle reference altogether, or go with your "it stems from a tanuki fertility deity and/or rites honoring said deity", and I'm happy to stick with it.

That said, in a world where magic is real, it's logical that people can abuse it out of just not thinking things through - our own world history is proof of that. And, as I said, strong cultural selection for one gender has had a real problematic outcome in our world today; places like China and India genuinely are facing issues where the cultural preference for sons has led to a severe deficit of women. So, it isn't really that implausible on pure logic that you could have a species that screwed itself over by playing around with magic in pursuit of cultural beliefs that, whoopsy, turned out to be not such a bright idea.

So... yeah, I could personally see & use tanuki as a male-favoring/masculine "weird gendered" race, but I admit that's magical realm contaminated. Unless you and Max_Killjoy have a change of opinions, let's stick with this idea:

The tanuki are a bawdy people whose most beloved deity/deities sport exaggerated testes, so icons of those and religious ceremonies where priests wear exaggerated genitalia have become infamous.