Is DMM worth it even if you can't stack nightsticks?

[Sam K]

Currently playing a crusader/cloistered cleric, going into RKV (obviously), and I'm looking over my feats. I've always been a firm believer in the power of DMM, but when I'm doing the maths now I'm not so certain. I've talked with my DM and he won't allow me to stack nightsticks (which I think is a fair interpretation).

So when I do the maths, my char has 14 charisma, for a total of 5 turn undead attempts. I could get a nightstick (4 extra attempts) and a reliquary holy symbol (2 extra attempts for a divine feat and 5 ranks in knowledge: religion). I could fit in extra turning as well, but not until the higher levels (probably not before 12, at least). So for half of my characters career, I would be looking at 11 turn undead attemps. That's only enough to quicken two spells, or persist one (if I had gone the persist way - retraining feats is an option, so I still could). Even with extra turning, I'm looking at two persisted spells, or three quickened, every day. That doesn't seem like a huge payout for 3 feats (4 if going persist).

For a pure cleric I could see it being more viable, but as a RKV I have other things to spend turn undead on: extra actions! I also have law devotion, and I'm considering travel devotion later on - all of this can really eat up the turning attempts. So, what's the verdict of the playground? Is DMM worth it when you can't stack nightsticks AND have other uses for turn undead attempts? Am I missing some other way I could add more turn undead attempts?

[noob]

RKV can turn a standard action into a swift which is really nice.
But with persist there is awesome shenanigans like persist antimagic zone+initiate of mystra.

[Anthrowhale]

With a rod of Extend spell you can double the number of persisted spells.

If you get the Rebuke Dragons ACF at cloistered cleric 1 and then later take Sacred Exorcist 1 again you can double the number of persisted spells again.

If you take the Spell Domain and then use Draconic Polymorph[Tome Dragon] with the feat Assume Supernatural Ability, you can reduce the cost by 2. Later, Shapechange (from the Animal domain) allows reducing the cost by 3 again doubling the number. Easy Metamagic [persistent spell] reduces costs by 1. The spell 'Manifest Life' plausibly reduces costs by 1 again.

With all these, the cost is 2 from your pool per persistent spell with two pools and casting spells only every other day. See http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?526397-Warmage-vs-Favored-Soul for a dumpster dive of good spells to persist.

Several of these tricks assist other uses of Turn Undead. The value of persist can be quite high with good spell choice but it's not clear to me that you should use _all_ slots for persistent spell.

[Esprit15]

My favorite use of it was being an archivist, dipping cloistered cleric, and then death delver. Yes, I was two caster levels behind, but I decided that domains were more useful for meeting prerequisites than the spells I would get. However, with both a turn and rebuke pool, anything that gave turn attempts basically got double return. Extra Thurning, Reliqary Holy Symbol, a single Night Stick, even a Cloak of Charisma +6, each became so much more useful. Combined with a Rod of Extend and he was persisting a comical amount of spell levels. Didn't get to the point that he could Persist 9th levels, but only because the campaign ended before he even needed to. As it turns out, 84 levels of Persist go plenty far.

[danielxcutter]

Who says you have to do Persistomancy? DMM: Extend is a perfectly good feat for gish builds.

[John Longarrow]

Question you'd want to answer first to help in your decision making; what is your role in the party?

Depending on what you are trying to have your character DO in game you can answer what helps you do that better.

[Sam K]

Question you'd want to answer first to help in your decision making; what is your role in the party?

Depending on what you are trying to have your character DO in game you can answer what helps you do that better.

Very good point there. It's a solo campaign, so "every darn role and then some" :) My character does have some followers (currently a beatstick and a skillmonkey), but they aren't always available the way a PC party is, so I need to be able to keep my options quite open. But looking at building on my strengths, frontliner/divine spellcaster are the areas where my character shines. Hits like a truck that just killed and ate another truck, and has good wisdom. In a classic party (beatstick, skillmonkey, arcane caster, divine caster) I imagine him being the 5th wheel, in a good way: able to support whomever is currently struggling.

Some pretty cool ideas here, although sadly much of it don't apply to my situation right now. It's too late to take rebuke dragons since I've already taken my first level of cleric. As for domains, I have to obide by the lore of the RKV so I can only take domains granted by Wee Jas - which doesn't include the spell domain (I tried to get that approved, no luck though).



Who says you have to do Persistomancy? DMM: Extend is a perfectly good feat for gish builds.

Considering this, though I'm wondering if DMM is actually worth it for extend. Extend only raises the spell level by one, so it might be better to skip DMM and just use a higher level spell slot.

[Malimar]

Who says you have to do Persistomancy? DMM: Extend is a perfectly good feat for gish builds.
I'm a fan of DMM: Reach Spell, myself. You never know when you'll want to hit somebody 30' away with a bestow curse or a slay living, especially if you're not a high enough level to be able to prepare those as Reach Spells natively.

[lord_khaine]

I would say that Quickening a spell for free is already very good, its easily worth an investment of a couple feats. And your getting 2 free quickens for 3 feats.
Thats something that leaves you free to spend your regular action on a maneuver instead, or smacking someone around (often the same thing).

[Anthrowhale]

It's too late to take rebuke dragons since I've already taken my first level of cleric. As for domains, I have to obide by the lore of the RKV so I can only take domains granted by Wee Jas - which doesn't include the spell domain (I tried to get that approved, no luck though).


Plausibly, Psychic Reformation deals with the first, while this page (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/we/greyhawkdeities.html) might deal with the second.

[Zombulian]

Short answer?
Yes.
Long answer?
Yeeeeeeeeessssssssssss.

[stanprollyright]

Even one "free" Persist/Quicken per day is still worth it.

[danielxcutter]

Even one "free" Persist/Quicken per day is still worth it.

This. Turn Undead doesn't do that much, and Rebuke is only a bit better, not to mention that RKV doesn't advance effective turning levels. With DMM, you can save higher-level slots for more powerful spells, or apply metamagic to spells that are normally to high-level to do that. Especially Persist, if it's used on a round/level spell like, say, Divine Power.

[stanprollyright]

This. Turn Undead doesn't do that much, and Rebuke is only a bit better, not to mention that RKV doesn't advance effective turning levels. With DMM, you can save higher-level slots for more powerful spells, or apply metamagic to spells that are normally to high-level to do that. Especially Persist, if it's used on a round/level spell like, say, Divine Power.

Not only is all day Divine Power worth 3 feats on its own, but also you still have Persist Spell. Just at the regular cost, which is still worthwhile.

[danielxcutter]

Not only is all day Divine Power worth 3 feats on its own, but also you still have Persist Spell. Just at the regular cost, which is still worthwhile.

3 feats? Could you explain, please?

[stanprollyright]

3 feats? Could you explain, please?

Extend Spell, Persist Spell, Divine Metamagic.

EDIT: My point is, even if those feats were "Dumb Prereq, Dump Prereq, DIVINE POWER ALL DAY" it'd still be a worthy feat chain. But since it's not, Extend Spell and Persist Spell are even worthy on their own.

[danielxcutter]

Extend Spell, Persist Spell, Divine Metamagic.

EDIT: My point is, even if those feats were "Dumb Prereq, Dump Prereq, DIVINE POWER ALL DAY" it'd still be a worthy feat chain. But since it's not, Extend Spell and Persist Spell are even worthy on their own.

Oh, I thought you meant that there was a 3-feat chain that was as good as DP. Yeah, Persisted Divine Power is awesome.

[stanprollyright]

Oh, I thought you meant that there was a 3-feat chain that was as good as DP. Yeah, Persisted Divine Power is awesome.

And then there's Quickened 9ths...even just one/day is worth it. So yeah. DMM is amazing.

[danielxcutter]

And then there's Quickened 9ths...even just one/day is worth it. So yeah. DMM is amazing.

Forget the cheese, the look on the DM's face when you do that would be worth it.

[Fizban]

Free metamagic is the most powerful thing you can add to the most powerful classes in 3.5. Divine Metamagic is free metamagic.

[Sam K]

This. Turn Undead doesn't do that much, and Rebuke is only a bit better, not to mention that RKV doesn't advance effective turning levels. With DMM, you can save higher-level slots for more powerful spells, or apply metamagic to spells that are normally to high-level to do that. Especially Persist, if it's used on a round/level spell like, say, Divine Power.

For a pure cleric I completely agree with that - once you're past fighting 1hd undead, turn/rebuke doesn't do much. However, for a RKV I feel it's slightly different as they can get something else from turn undead that's very powerful: extra swift actions! And using more turning attempts they can turn these swift actions into standard actions for ANYONE THAT NEEDS AN EXTRA STANDARD ACTION (white raven tactics). Likewise, persisted divine power on a pure cleric is made of extra-strength awesomesauce, but the RKV gets 11 class levels with full BAB (1 crusader and 10 RKV) and better hp. It's not the same amazing transformation, as a pure cleric (especially a cloistered cleric) goes from bad to win at melee, while a RKV goes from pretty good to win. And since a RKV also has initiator levels, it's not quite as vital to get the full iteratives, as a RKV will often only make a single attack at its' highest BAB.

Still, I'm taking the responses I've gotten as a clear indication that the forum consensus is that DMM (quicken or persist) is indeed worth it on a RKV even if I can't stack nightsticks :)

[Dagroth]

With a rod of Extend spell you can double the number of persisted spells.

If you get the Rebuke Dragons ACF at cloistered cleric 1 and then later take Sacred Exorcist 1 again you can double the number of persisted spells again.

If you take the Spell Domain and then use Draconic Polymorph[Tome Dragon] with the feat Assume Supernatural Ability, you can reduce the cost by 2. Later, Shapechange (from the Animal domain) allows reducing the cost by 3 again doubling the number. Easy Metamagic [persistent spell] reduces costs by 1. The spell 'Manifest Life' plausibly reduces costs by 1 again.

With all these, the cost is 2 from your pool per persistent spell with two pools and casting spells only every other day. See http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?526397-Warmage-vs-Favored-Soul for a dumpster dive of good spells to persist.

Several of these tricks assist other uses of Turn Undead. The value of persist can be quite high with good spell choice but it's not clear to me that you should use _all_ slots for persistent spell.

This is good. I made a thread on getting the most Turn Attempts possible once... A DMM Persist focused Cleric rarely gets a starting Wisdom over 16 because every point of Charisma Bonus is 2 more Turn Attempts.


My favorite use of it was being an archivist, dipping cloistered cleric, and then death delver. Yes, I was two caster levels behind, but I decided that domains were more useful for meeting prerequisites than the spells I would get. However, with both a turn and rebuke pool, anything that gave turn attempts basically got double return. Extra Thurning, Reliqary Holy Symbol, a single Night Stick, even a Cloak of Charisma +6, each became so much more useful. Combined with a Rod of Extend and he was persisting a comical amount of spell levels. Didn't get to the point that he could Persist 9th levels, but only because the campaign ended before he even needed to. As it turns out, 84 levels of Persist go plenty far.

Just remember that your Cleric Turning needs to be either Rebuke Dragons or Channel Incarnum (Azurin Race).