Minotaur Marines

[TotallyNotEvil]

So, we have half a hundred minotaurs heavily indebted to us and living on our proto-kingdom, but they aren't really doing anything.

And we have a small navy, in a "magic is just coming back" setting, where most adults have 3~4 HD, and are thus fodder for most monsters out there.

Here's the idea: use minotaurs as elite shocktroopers for our boats. Good for taking other mundane vessels and helping our own ships surviving the dreaded naval random encounter tables.

Could it be done? If so, how? What kind of skill point distribution, feats and equipment would make them effective in such a role?

Cheaper is better.

They being medieval-equivalent of Space Marines is gravy, yes.

[Zaq]

What kind of resources do you have? Can you give them magical gear or expensive nonmagical gear (vehicles, etc.)? I know that cheaper is better, but there's a big gradient there.

I guess I'm not really sure what you want the minotaurs to be accomplishing. Are they protecting these 3-4 HD humanoids from monsters, or are you the monsters raiding these humanoids? How many are you planning to deploy at once against any given threat? You say that they're "elite shocktroopers"—what do you have in mind, specifically? (Are they scouting ahead and softening up targets a day or two in advance of you, or are they engaging most targets about when you do, or are they leading the charge with the expectation that your group will join them in a matter of minutes or rounds rather than hours or days, or what?) Do you need to delegate authority at all, or are you planning on directing them yourself, or something else? If you do delegate authority to them, how much do you trust them (both from a loyalty perspective and from a tactical savviness perspective)? How will you communicate with them if you send them out without you?

Can you customize their builds at all? Do any of them have class levels? When you're dealing with a large number of critters (50 is a large number, though like I said, I'm not sure how many you're expecting to have on the field at once), a force multiplier like a Bard or a Marshal can go a long way, as I'm sure I hardly need to tell you.

Basically, you're going a fair bit outside the paradigm of "3-6 PC adventurers working in close concert with each other." Which is fine, but it means that a lot of the baseline assumptions we have about the game aren't necessarily as valuable as they are for a "traditional" setup. You need to figure out what you're trying to accomplish in the game world and what that's going to look like at the table.

[TotallyNotEvil]

We might be able to slowly roll out +1 breastplates for them, starting with the better ones, a baseline of Least Arrow Deflection Crystal on MW breastplates and maybe Least Weapon Crystals for officers could be achieved. We have a stable portal to the Plane of Molten Skies, from which we can access the Ciry of Brass, so equipping them with mundane but fairly high quality gear won't be much of a problem.

We have a mundane navy we are slowly filling with wondrous beings, like a tiny bard fey commandeering her own galley.

I was of a mind to add a small number of minotaurs to allow for better and easier boarding actions, countering any special trick the opposition might have in their sleeves, like a captain with a level or two in hedge mage/adept. Say, three or four on smaller vessels. They should also add a level of protection against sea perils, but that's secondary.

Seeing twelve foot tall bullmen with axes as big as you are tall jumping over the railing will likely make the "surrender" part of the deal far easier to accept.

They weren't born minotaurs, but experimented by demons until they became ones, so they have anger management problems and are rather simple-minded. We are hoping natural born ones will not have these problems, but some of the smarter ones came with calm emotions manacles that they use day-to-day.

The average one is not likely to have class levels, no, but we can probably induce a barbarian level or two with training, given their natural tendencies.

We have a proto-kingdom, an island nation with 4-5 thousand people.

They are part of a project we are running to bring our own counters to large numbers of monsters some species have access to, like demons and illithids, that can field a relatively large amount of Schir and Sahuagin.

See my other thread "Griffon Knights" for another part of it.

But yes, we should be able to cherry pick their builds to some extent, swapping feats and skill points.

[nintendoh]

Make sure they have ranks in swim. All you need is one drowning for the stupid angry barbs to say no. Also heavy armor and water not good. Breast plates have quick release pull tabs. Potions of water breathing cost how much? Boarding actions are all well and good but how much naval combat is at that range. Sea critters yes but back in the day they softened up ships and fortifications via bombardment. Give them magical dodgeballs. That was a simpsons reference. There has to be a way to make "to hit" based on str for thrown weapons. A couple of volleys of alchemist fire would deter a mundane ship. Do not forget the bull strength "haha" and grappling hooks. Most period navy fighters are going to be light armor dex builds. Take that into account.

[TotallyNotEvil]

Yeah, the setting is ASOIAF meets D&D.

Naval combat consists of ramming the enemy ship in order to sink it, or ramming it in order to unload your cargo of angry soldiers.

[schreier]

You could read up on the Dragonlance minotaurs - they're actually a seafaring race.

The main campaign setting book is official.

[Gildedragon]

Get a few to go into War Weaver (Spellguard optional).
Little huddles make castings of Water Breathing and other buffs (heart of earth, heart of water) super efficient and cheap for buffing teams

[TotallyNotEvil]

You could read up on the Dragonlance minotaurs - they're actually a seafaring race.

The main campaign setting book is official.
Oho, that sounds promising.

Get a few to go into War Weaver (Spellguard optional).
Little huddles make castings of Water Breathing and other buffs (heart of earth, heart of water) super efficient and cheap for buffing teams
Unfortunately, they'd need to be able to cast 3rd level spells to enter the PrC.

[Blu]

Hi, I read your other post.

First, how much can a griffon carry?
A minotaur weights around 700 pounds, plus equipments.
How much available are griffons?

If you have a way to carry those minotaurs airborne, you could make a fairly efficient force to disrupt armys by training them to use Spiked chains and teaching them Combat reflexes since minotaurs don't have a penalty to their Dex(assuming they could have something along the lines of 14 dex in each). With a reach of 20 ft, droping some in the midlle of an enemy force could probably disrupt them long enough for your army to do some damage.

[Gildedragon]

Oho, that sounds promising.

Unfortunately, they'd need to be able to cast 3rd level spells to enter the PrC.

Wizard 3 + sanctum spell?
Precocious Apprentice, Wizard 1, Sanctum Spell?

[TotallyNotEvil]

Hi, I read your other post.

First, how much can a griffon carry?
A minotaur weights around 700 pounds, plus equipments.
How much available are griffons?

If you have a way to carry those minotaurs airborne, you could make a fairly efficient force to disrupt armys by training them to use Spiked chains and teaching them Combat reflexes since minotaurs don't have a penalty to their Dex(assuming they could have something along the lines of 14 dex in each). With a reach of 20 ft, droping some in the midlle of an enemy force could probably disrupt them long enough for your army to do some damage.
The Griffon Knights are supposed to be a order of nobles. I don't think up introducing Minotaurs will help their case :smalltongue:

We do have a dead gorgon around whom we plan to Revivify, Charm and make it breed.

Get that mount's feat that allow them to carry riders of the same size, and you have inception bull cavalry.

[Vizzerdrix]

Look into gnome calculus (weapon-a&eg) to give your bulls 50 foot range with alchemicals. Auran masks are another alchemy device that should give them 5 or 10 minutes of air if they fall in. Tower shields may be a better investment than armor, along with destana and the other overlays from oriental adventures. Then at least they dont loose all their ac if they fall in.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Minotaurs have quite some natural armor and are never caught flat footed, which helps avoid the heavy armor issue. They like using large axes, which may not be very practical on a ship, but are still deadly with shorter weapons or their bare hands, which is nice. They are large creatures though (even if only barely so at 7 foot or something), and that in combination with the horns might not be very helpful when fighting over anything but the deck of a ship. They're compact for the power they offer, but all of the internal spaces of ships designed for humans are often too low for even humans to walk upright in, so minotaurs are probably not quite compact enough. So... how good would they be at knuckle walking? It's also hard for them to use their charge attacks in small spaces like that. On the plus side, they really like maze like layouts and spaces and they never get lost.

I see some pros and cons but I definitely don't see minotaurs as the only troops aboard a ship, maybe just attach a single 6-8 minotaur squad to every 30+ men platoon or something, let them do the heavy lifting on the initial boarding, then send them to wherever the enemy keeps their largest cannons. There might be space enough for them to maneuver there, and their physical strength would really help in disrupting any current or future cannon fire.

They could be great at attacking fortresses though, those are generally just a bit roomier then ships to allow for bigger troop movements, at least until the enemy realizes you're going to raid them all with minotaurs. Being chased by maze navigating murder bulls in there would be absolutely horrifying.

[Coidzor]

How small of a navy are we talking? What sorts of vessels would you and your enemies possess?

Biremes and Triremes? Viking Longships? Galleys? Galleons? Cogs and Barques?

[TotallyNotEvil]

It's the ASOIAF world. Aka, Game of Thrones.

No cannons, just a few ballistae and catapults on top of the really long ships, naval combat being more about ramming and boarding than anything.

So warships are mostly galleys with a ton of oars, carrying many soldiers, and merchant vessels are more varied with a mix of galleons and cogs and the odd galley, highly dependant on the kind of journey one expects to make and their wealth.

So far, our navy as it is is small, half a dozen vessels, but we plan to, well, loot the Royal Fleet.

But yes, we don't intend to crew entire ships with minotaurs, just use them to make our captain' jobs of capturing vessels and plunder much, much easier, while adding some security to the vessel. 3-6 minotaurs in most ships with a handler to compliment the onboard fighting force.

Human sailors should be around 3-4 HD experts with maybe a level of warrior. A Minotaur in +1 breastplate and three good feats goes a long way in this world.

I'm looking for suggestion on that crunch side of things. Are there any particularly good feats or tricks for that kind of action?

[Coidzor]

Knockback or Shock Trooper might be of interest if they can qualify.

Bull-Rushing to put holes in groups of enemies or even do that and knock them prone can do a fair bit.

Might also be able to knock people into the drink, depending upon positioning and ship width.