Good combat feats to share with a Mauler familiar?

[EisenKreutzer]

I'm building an Eldritch Guardian Mutation Warrior fighter with the Hand's Detachment feat to get a medium sized hand Mauler archetype familiar.

Eldritch Guardian gets to share combat feats with his familiar. The hand has the stats of a crawling hand, so it will have a huge Str score, a Dex of 5 (which I will boost by sharing my mutagen) and middling Con and HP. It also has the Grab and Strangle monster abilities.

What are some good combat feats to take that benefits both me and the hand?

[Alistaroc]

By RAW, I believe the Mauler archetype is incompatible with the Hand's Detachment feat.



The hand acts as a wizard’s familiar, using your character level as your effective wizard level, except it doesn’t gain the alertness, share spells, deliver touch spells, spell resistance, or scry on familiar abilities.


Battle Form (Su)

At 3rd level, a mauler gains the ability to transform into a larger, more ferocious form and back at will. In battle form, the mauler’s size becomes Medium and the mauler gains a +2 bonus to Strength (this stacks with the normal Strength adjustments for increasing in size).

This ability replaces deliver touch spells. Emphasis mine.
One could argue you can't replace an ability you don't have.
If however you treat the familiar as a standard familiar using the reading of Eldritch Guardian, it should work.

To answer your question though, Power Attack is given, and from there, Improved Bull Rush is always a good option with such high Strength (25 I believe), and even Improved Grapple could be good if you can stomach the feat tax.

[EisenKreutzer]

By RAW, I believe the Mauler archetype is incompatible with the Hand's Detachment feat.



Emphasis mine.
One could argue you can't replace an ability you don't have.
If however you treat the familiar as a standard familiar using the reading of Eldritch Guardian, it should work.


If you continue reading the Hand's Detachment feat, you'll see that if you have the familiar class feature, the hand can be taken as a familiar, thus gaining all normal familiar abilities including the deliver touch spell feature the Mauler needs to be compatible.

[Alistaroc]

Oh wow, my bad :smallredface:
Then I see no issue; you could certainly make your Hand an uber-grappler that holds the enemy while you wail away with... whatever you choose really. :smallbiggrin:

[EisenKreutzer]

I have toyed with grappling feats, but it's a steep feat tax and the hand already has both the Grab and Strangle abilities so I would get limited payoff.
I have a feeling that combat maneuvers would work well, but I'm unsure which direction to go in to benefit both me and the hand.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Dirty trick? Can't go wrong with dirty tricks.

[EisenKreutzer]

Dirty trick? Can't go wrong with dirty tricks.

Thats a good idea. I have tried to work this build in many different directions, from pure TWF to grappling and combat maneuvers. Dirty trick is a fairly powerful combat maneuver.

I'll look into it!

[stanprollyright]

Toughness. It's not a shareable combat feat but you should take it anyway. Mauler familiars have a habit of getting one-shotted.

[EisenKreutzer]

Toughness. It's not a shareable combat feat but you should take it anyway. Mauler familiars have a habit of getting one-shotted.

I'm solving that by taking Maulers Endurance. :)

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Toughness adds to both HP counts, since the familiar gets half of the master's HP.

[EisenKreutzer]

Toughness adds to both HP counts, since the familiar gets half of the master's HP.

Now that I think about it, HP is going to be a problem. With a Dex that low, the hand will have to rely on a pretty limited HP pool to stay alive.

Hmm, thats another basic feat I need to squeeze into the build. My archetypes make me lose two feats at 1st and 2nd level, and I need to invest three feats into the hand to get the companion.
That does not leave much room, especially since I have been trying to go for TWF to take advantage of the other Possessed Hand feats.

How would you build this character?

[stanprollyright]

TBH I'd skip the Hand feats. I know it's sad, but it really doesn't seem worth 3 feats over a normal Mauler. Foxes have decent stats in Battle Form.

Get a wand of Mage Armor to cast on it, because it will have pretty crappy AC and it will be much less complicated than trying to put armor on it, which it won't be proficient in. Mauler's Endurance looks good (I wish I had known about that when I played a Shaman). Toughness should help too. Share Power Attack and umm... Bull Rush?

[EisenKreutzer]

TBH I'd skip the Hand feats. I know it's sad, but it really doesn't seem worth 3 feats over a normal Mauler. Foxes have decent stats in Battle Form.

Get a wand of Mage Armor to cast on it, because it will have pretty crappy AC and it will be much less complicated than trying to put armor on it, which it won't be proficient in. Mauler's Endurance looks good (I wish I had known about that when I played a Shaman). Toughness should help too. Share Power Attack and umm... Bull Rush?

I know it's not super optimal, but it's so weird and cool that I'm determined to make the Hand feats work. Plus, the TWF buff Hand's Autonomy grants is really good, and Hand's Sight is decent (and RAW works when the hand is detached).

I've looked at Bull Rush, but I don't think I get it. Is it really that useful?
I'm leaning more and more towards combat maneuvers for this build, especially since the hand gets Grab and Strangle for free.

Guess I'll just have to bite the bullet and work Power Attack and Toughness into the build.

[Ellrin]

Don't try to mix Hand's Detachment and TWF unless you have more than two arms. TWF requires a very dedicated build, meaning that when you detach your hand (and therefore can no longer wield an offhand weapon), you basically lose your entire schtick, and having a weaker-than-an-animal-companion flanking buddy is not going to make up for that even a little.

That said, if you've got a good UMD bonus and can get reliable access to scrolls of giant form, you can make up for this by casting it on yourself and your hand. You may be able to convince your DM that you get both your hands while polymorphed, and regeneration should also take care of your hand's squishiness. If your DM still wants you to be missing a hand while polymorphed, you can go with monstrous physique for yourself instead--there are plenty of monstrous humanoids with 4+ arms.

It'd also be pretty badass to rip your hand off and turn it into a troll.

[EisenKreutzer]

Don't try to mix Hand's Detachment and TWF unless you have more than two arms. TWF requires a very dedicated build, meaning that when you detach your hand (and therefore can no longer wield an offhand weapon), you basically lose your entire schtick, and having a weaker-than-an-animal-companion flanking buddy is not going to make up for that even a little.

That said, if you've got a good UMD bonus and can get reliable access to scrolls of giant form, you can make up for this by casting it on yourself and your hand. You may be able to convince your DM that you get a hand back while polymorphed, and regeneration should also take care of your hand's squishiness.

It'd also be pretty badass to rip your hand off and turn it into a troll.
See, I have a brilliant solution to this: The scizore. I just stick it on my stump after summoning my hand familiar monstrosity, and suddenly I can TWF again!

[Ellrin]

See, I have a brilliant solution to this: The scizore. I just stick it on my stump after summoning my hand familiar monstrosity, and suddenly I can TWF again!

I mean, if I were going to play it that way I'd use armor spikes, but there are solutions like that, too, to be fair.

[stanprollyright]

I've looked at Bull Rush, but I don't think I get it. Is it really that useful?
I'm leaning more and more towards combat maneuvers for this build, especially since the hand gets Grab and Strangle for free.

Bull Rush lets you reposition enemies over ledges, into corners, away from your squishies, and/or into flanking positions. Greater Bull Rush gives your allies AoOs, which is nice on a secondary character. Unlike tripping or disarming it works against every kind of creature as long as it isn't too large. If your checks are high enough, you can Bull Rush multiple enemies at a time. It's not my go-to combat maneuver, but it does have Power Attack as a prereq instead of Combat Expertise or Improved Unarmed.

[Aldrakan]

It's not my go-to combat maneuver, but it does have Power Attack as a prereq instead of Combat Expertise or Improved Unarmed.

Though that's less of an issue now that Dirty Fighting exists. You'd probably be flanking with your familiar a lot, so seems like a good thing to pick up. Also allows you to use any
Combat maneuver without AoO if you can flank so there's some flexibility there.

[stanprollyright]

Though that's less of an issue now that Dirty Fighting exists. You'd probably be flanking with your familiar a lot, so seems like a good thing to pick up. Also allows you to use any
Combat maneuver without AoO if you can flank so there's some flexibility there.

It's still an extra feat though, compared to Power Attack, which you were getting anyway.

[stack]

I would look at teamwork feats. Easier to leverage them when you control your teamwork buddy and share the feats. Many of them are combat feats. Broken wing gambit, tandem trip, etc.

[EisenKreutzer]

I would look at teamwork feats. Easier to leverage them when you control your teamwork buddy and share the feats. Many of them are combat feats. Broken wing gambit, tandem trip, etc.

I have been looking at them, but none of the seem to pack enough of a punch.
If you had to pick two teamwork feats that were also combat feats to share with a pet, what would they be?

[stack]

Broken wing gambit and maybe the one that doubles flanking bonuses? Tandem trip if building a tripper. I'm not an expert in them.

Probably a Hunter guide somewhere that analyzes them since sharing teamwork feats with a pet is what they live for.

[HamaYumi]

Not related, but Spirit's Gift provides a once a day 1 minute/level shaman spirit animal ability to your familiar. that means dr 5/adamantine or blur 20% miss chance to your familiar during a boss fight.

As for combat feats, I would suggest Dirty Fighting/Outflank to help with the accuracy for both you and the hand.

[Florian]

You´ll want Coordinated Charge and maybe Coordinated Maneuvers, Barrage of Styles with Stick Together and Tandem Trip being optional.
Maybe dip a bit into Master of Many Styles Monk to have two Styles active and go For Brute Style and Bulette Style - if not, just go Brute Style and combo with the hand (i.e. charge together, trip, overrun and stomp together). I didn't´t check for archetype stacking, but Drill Sergeant would allow to share Weapon Training with your hand and on a Mutagen Warrior, you´d go into the Close group anyways.

[EisenKreutzer]

You´ll want Coordinated Charge and maybe Coordinated Maneuvers, Barrage of Styles with Stick Together and Tandem Trip being optional.
Maybe dip a bit into Master of Many Styles Monk to have two Styles active and go For Brute Style and Bulette Style - if not, just go Brute Style and combo with the hand (i.e. charge together, trip, overrun and stomp together). I didn't´t check for archetype stacking, but Drill Sergeant would allow to share Weapon Training with your hand and on a Mutagen Warrior, you´d go into the Close group anyways.

Thanks for the help! I will definitely look into those feats.
Sadly, Drill Sergeant does not stack with the Eldritch Guardian archetype, which is central to this build.

[Florian]

Thanks for the help! I will definitely look into those feats.
Sadly, Drill Sergeant does not stack with the Eldritch Guardian archetype, which is central to this build.

Just be advised that you´re making a "rookie mistake" when it comes to Fighters. Yes, this class has a bad rep due to lack of out-of-combat options, but it´s more or less the only class that can combo/N1 chain with itself by default. You´re going into two very "flashy" archetypes, sacrificing 5 feats to do so, meaning you´ll never reach the full potential of sticking to one of those archetypes, nor will you gain the raw killing power that a "plain" Fighter can achieve.

Edit: Don´t get me wrong - You can build on Eldritch Guardian _or_ Mutation Warrior, but not both.

[EisenKreutzer]

Just be advised that you´re making a "rookie mistake" when it comes to Fighters. Yes, this class has a bad rep due to lack of out-of-combat options, but it´s more or less the only class that can combo/N1 chain with itself by default. You´re going into two very "flashy" archetypes, sacrificing 5 feats to do so, meaning you´ll never reach the full potential of sticking to one of those archetypes, nor will you gain the raw killing power that a "plain" Fighter can achieve.

Edit: Don´t get me wrong - You can build on Eldritch Guardian _or_ Mutation Warrior, but not both.

Yeah, the more I look at it, the more Mutation Warrior seems to get in the way. It's a neat idea, but I think I'm giving up too much. The rules reading for sharing the mutagen with the familiar is sketchy anyway.

[Florian]

Yeah, the more I look at it, the more Mutation Warrior seems to get in the way. It's a neat idea, but I think I'm giving up too much. The rules reading for sharing the mutagen with the familiar is sketchy anyway.

Personally, I´d not rule the mutagen as a "spell" to be useable with the Share Spells class feature. It´s too specific for that. Mutagen Warrior is a good archetype for very focused builds. I gm´d Iron Gods and had the (miss)fortune to see what a Mutagen Warrior/Savage Warrior with a two-level dip into Barbarian, high CHA and Eldritch Heritage can do and the result was impressive, ended up like some WH40K Genestealer Hybrid that could rip thru anything.