PDA

View Full Version : So what is this "Kender"?



CrackedChair
2017-06-10, 12:49 PM
I heard about a discussion on something called a Kender and how they are godawful, according to the post. Can somebody explain what they are?

Nifft
2017-06-10, 12:54 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kender_(Dragonlance)

What's annoying about them:


Curiosity

Hickman's primary contributions to the development of the kender were their curiosity and their tendency to "borrow" objects.[3] His desire for the skills of a thief, without the associated moral concerns raised by a "race of thieves", led to depicting kender as possessing a habit of finding things that have dropped into their pouches by accident, picking things up in the streets, finding "junk", and generally acquiring things that belong to other people.[3] This habit was justified in Dragonlance Adventures through Hickman's decision to provide the kender with enormous natural curiosity, a character trait which is also employed to provide the characters with lock picking skills and a tendency to "listen in on other's conversations".[11]

Kender are described as not believing that there is anything morally wrong with handling others' items,[12] although the habit may land them in considerable trouble with the owner of an object. In addition, they do not tend to pocket things like money, gems, and the like, as they are depicted as having little concept of monetary value.[11] Kender oppose actual thieving vehemently, and consider being called a thief a great insult to their dignity.[11][13]

As a side effect of these characteristics, kender can be difficult to play within the role-playing game, as their lack of interest in monetary gain is "a virtual anathema" to the manner in which characters of many other races are typically portrayed. It was recommended in The Mists of Krynn that kender be employed as non-player characters, with their kleptomania providing a convenient means for those running the game to introduce objects at critical times.[14]


Taunting

In Dragonlance Adventures, kender are described as masters at the art of insulting people, using a wide repertoire of taunts, sarcasm, rudeness, and insults. This is made possible due to the shocking insights into an individual's character flaws that a kender can gain through his or her intense curiosity. Kender are also described in Dragonlance Adventures as using this ability to taunt creatures, causing them to become irrational and attack wildly or fall into some kind of trap.[11]

In the computer game Champions of Krynn, kender are portrayed as "the only race that can taunt enemies, driving them into a rage ... and forcing them to focus their attacks on kender".[10] Hickman explained that this characteristic in the kender was created by the game group which was responsible for creating the original saga. Although they thought it was a simple feature, including it in subsequent books proved to be a long-term challenge.[3]


Imagine there's a race for that guy who always wants to steal other PC's stuff.

"But I'm just playing my character!"

That guy is a jerk.

That's Kender.

CrackedChair
2017-06-10, 12:57 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kender_(Dragonlance)

What's annoying about them:


Imagine there's a race for that guy who always wants to steal other PC's stuff.

"But I'm just playing my character!"

That guy is a jerk.

That's Kender.

Ah, so they are THE chaotic neutral PC.

And they steal stuff, and hide behind playing out a character.

Boy, I feel sorry for the table playing with one of those PC's.

Akodo Makama
2017-06-10, 01:11 PM
Ah, so they are THE chaotic neutral PC.

And they steal stuff, and hide behind playing out a character.

Boy, I feel sorry for the table playing with one of those PC's.

It's not the C that's the problem, it's the P.

Yora
2017-06-10, 01:13 PM
The way they are presented, kender strongly encourage player to troll the rest of the group by being annoying and disruptive. Things that are commonly regarded as unacceptible during play are presented as the proper way to play kenders.

CrackedChair
2017-06-10, 01:15 PM
I guess it's fine for now that we don't have official material for Dragonlance for 5th edition yet. I don't think many players would like some halfling-like person stealing taking their stuff and not giving it back, stating they are "in character".

Keltest
2017-06-10, 01:17 PM
The way they are presented, kender strongly encourage player to troll the rest of the group by being annoying and disruptive. Things that are commonly regarded as unacceptible during play are presented as the proper way to play kenders.

I think it would be more accurate to say that Kender provide a larger than usual shield for problem players to attempt to hide behind. A kender, properly played, is far more likely to steal a string of regular beads off your elven cloak than they are to steal your ancestral sword of messing up enemies real good. And they always give it back when confronted over it.

CrackedChair
2017-06-10, 01:20 PM
Ah, so that could be a proper way to play it out. I still might have a sense of unease with them though...

Honest Tiefling
2017-06-10, 01:40 PM
The way they are presented, kender strongly encourage player to troll the rest of the group by being annoying and disruptive. Things that are commonly regarded as unacceptible during play are presented as the proper way to play kenders.

And to make it worse, as they are presented, the kender are morons in addition to being trolls. They don't feel fear, so they'll just **** with stuff around them. The text IIRC, reads something along the lines of 'The most dangerous thing in Kyrnn is a kender saying 'oops!'. Kender are encouraged to endanger the party because they lack the basic survival instincts of a chipmunk and they got bored.

AND they hate thieves. Despite stealing everything. They can't understand that they are thieves because they keep taking items, or how this might be a problem they should fix. They get OFFENDED at being called thieves.

AND TO MAKE THINGS WORSE: Only really evil people hate them. All good people know that they are pure and good and blah blah blah. So if you murder one because it kept stealing important things like the paladin's sword that he needed to fight the zombie hoard about to eat the orphanage, YOU'RE the evil one, not the insane halfling twit.

And the cherry on top is that these things were invented because the creators wanted to make a thief race that wasn't evil. Because stealing things on purpose to save people is wrong, but stealing things because you are delusional and refuse to understand that you have problems and insist on 'helping' is a-okay.

Cluedrew
2017-06-10, 01:52 PM
ADHD, kleptomania and the lack of fear.

Yeah there hard to do properly, even many of the official books messed them up. I think the one thing people forget is that kender don't steal, they find. And if they find something of yours they will give it back. The Finders Guild for instance is a guild that holds things that kender turn in after having found around the city (I forget which city) and people go there looking for their missing stuff. And it is often their.

Lord Raziere
2017-06-10, 02:08 PM
And the cherry on top is that these things were invented because the creators wanted to make a thief race that wasn't evil. Because stealing things on purpose to save people is wrong, but stealing things because you are delusional and refuse to understand that you have problems and insist on 'helping' is a-okay.

Hm, I wonder if I can do better.

Thief Race that isn't evil! how to do? Well good is selfless, is so what would a selfless thief do?

Well they'd probably say "wow these nobles don't seem to need all this food, and these beggars are starving. lets redistribute. gluttony is a sin y'know"

or "hm, look at all this gold! do the nobles REALLY all of it? I think some should go to people who don't have any and can't get any money themselves. That getting too greedy and how is this money going to be useful to anyone hoarded up like this?"

......so an entire race of taking from people with an excess amount of stuff to give to people who need it. My god, fantasy socialists. They'd probably also give things that they themselves have that they don't need to people who do as well. their society would emphasize that its all about giving to others rather than taking away. its just that they don't see whats so wrong about taking things from people who are not sharing the excess stuff to give to everyone else. their sense of ownership would be about need rather than want. definitely better than Kender.

JAL_1138
2017-06-10, 02:08 PM
If you want to end a campaign, give a kender a Deck of Many Things. Sit back and watch the fireworks.

tomandtish
2017-06-10, 03:12 PM
The biggest key to playing a Kender correctly (or letting a player play one)? Generally no control over the "finding". IF they are specifically looking for something, that's one thing (with all the subsequent consequences). And note that any time Tas specifically tried to knowingly take a specific item, he felt bad about it both before and after.

But to duplicate how it normally works (Esp. with party members), once or twice a day just roll and see if they lifted some small item. Note that the Kender may not even be aware of this. If you read the novels a lot of this was almost "stream of consciousness". Tas often found things in his pouches that he had no conscious memory of taking.

The Kender's finding is not an intentional thing. It's really accidental. And they are as likely to take the broken piece of glass as they are the gem, because the broken piece of glass looks cool.

Âmesang
2017-06-10, 03:32 PM
I'm a just leave this here…


https://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/dnd/kender.png
** WARNING || PROFANE LANGUAGE **

EDIT: I feel like if I were to ever play a Kender I would A) tell the party ahead of time what kind of race they are (especially since I don't know how much DRAGONLANCE® material they're familiar with) and, B) ask them what minor, unimportant stuff they have ahead of time… so said kender might lift a silver piece because it has an interesting looking gash in it, but I would avoid anything particularly important.

…but I still feel like the entice concept is borked no matter what. :smallyuk:

dps
2017-06-10, 03:44 PM
When I was reading the Dragonlance novels, I found Tas incredibly annoying, just as a literary character. I can't imagine playing a campaign with a Kender as a party member.

Thrudd
2017-06-10, 04:00 PM
I think that the real origin of the Kender race is Tasslehoff. Someone came up with a funny, and somewhat annoying, personality for the Halfling thief character they were playing - and they decided that should be the description of the entire race, because they thought that was just so much fun. The same way all Dwarves are now dour and taciturn - because that's how Flint's player played him.

Honest Tiefling
2017-06-10, 04:10 PM
The Kender's finding is not an intentional thing. It's really accidental. And they are as likely to take the broken piece of glass as they are the gem, because the broken piece of glass looks cool.

Even so, its still a problem. You are talking about an entire race with severe memory issues who cannot actually remember what they are doing and the attention span of a gnat. Why would you EVER trust this type of person to remember how to disarm fatal traps? You'd probably have more luck chucking their dead corpse at the traps.

Noje
2017-06-10, 05:48 PM
AND TO MAKE THINGS WORSE: Only really evil people hate them. All good people know that they are pure and good and blah blah blah. So if you murder one because it kept stealing important things like the paladin's sword that he needed to fight the zombie hoard about to eat the orphanage, YOU'RE the evil one, not the insane halfling twit.
.

Not trying to start a alignment war, but punishing those who do wrong to you (intentionally or unintentionally) is not an inherently evil or good act. You're simply standing up for yourself and not letting people push you around. If someone put the lives of an entire orphanage at risk, you're damn right I would expect him to get lashed and imprisoned at the least.



And the cherry on top is that these things were invented because the creators wanted to make a thief race that wasn't evil. Because stealing things on purpose to save people is wrong, but stealing things because you are delusional and refuse to understand that you have problems and insist on 'helping' is a-okay.
.

Having a "thief race" of any kind is never going to result in anything but poor characterization. One of the most interesting things you can do with a thief is explore why they steal, and having a race that just does it "because that's their culture" is just frustrating. whatever characters you have of that race are immediately unrelatable because they don't have motivations for what they do. the Kajiiht from Skyrim have many thieves in their ranks because discrimination from other races gave them very few ways to sustain themselves. Why do the Kender steal? Because that's just what they do.

lunaticfringe
2017-06-10, 06:23 PM
It's best to think of small races in Dragonlance as droids. Just there for kids and 'comic' relief. Tinker Gnomes were kind of an annoying joke too.

Honest Tiefling
2017-06-10, 06:26 PM
It's best to think of small races in Dragonlance as droids. Just there for kids and 'comic' relief. Tinker Gnomes were kind of an annoying joke too.

Hey hey hey! R2D2 did stuff. He was helpful. Don't you dare start comparing that poor little droid to the idiocy of Kender and Tinker Gnomes.

lunaticfringe
2017-06-10, 06:41 PM
Hey hey hey! R2D2 did stuff. He was helpful. Don't you dare start comparing that poor little droid to the idiocy of Kender and Tinker Gnomes.

Fun Fact about R2: No one knows wtf he/she/it is saying. Are you really sure R2 is cool?

But I was talking about the other 90% of droids. Though small goofball that occasionally opens a door or disarms a trap sounds pretty 'Kendery' to me now that I think about it.

Cluedrew
2017-06-10, 06:58 PM
Don't you dare start comparing that poor little droid to the idiocy of Kender and Tinker Gnomes.Hey, hey, they (and the gully dwarves) were hilarious in my opinion. Of course I cannot defend the actual intelligence of any of these races but they were a good laugh. In the original trilogy, I feel they didn't do quite as good a job with any of them (especially kender) after that.

leoryff
2017-06-10, 07:13 PM
The existence of Tasselhoff Burrfoot justifies the creation of the Kender race four times over.

Lord Raziere
2017-06-10, 07:20 PM
The existence of Tasselhoff Burrfoot justifies the creation of the Kender race four times over.

*cracks up laughing*

No.

It does not.

Dragonlance in general is not that good of a setting really. Its basically every DnD trope taken to its most stupid extreme. Kender is just a particular standout microcosm of its wider problems and Tasselhoff is just exhibit A of all the problems of Kender.

leoryff
2017-06-10, 07:49 PM
*cracks up laughing*

No.

It does not.

Dragonlance in general is not that good of a setting really. Its basically every DnD trope taken to its most stupid extreme. Kender is just a particular standout microcosm of its wider problems and Tasselhoff is just exhibit A of all the problems of Kender.


I don't think we've been reading the same Dragonlance series.

Cluedrew
2017-06-10, 07:57 PM
Having read lots of books in Dragonlance, Dark Sun and Forgotten Realms, they rank in about that order. Dragonlance is perhaps the silliest of the three but if you are willing to laugh, that is what makes it so good.

CrackedChair
2017-06-10, 08:10 PM
*cracks up laughing*

No.

It does not.

Dragonlance in general is not that good of a setting really. Its basically every DnD trope taken to its most stupid extreme. Kender is just a particular standout microcosm of its wider problems and Tasselhoff is just exhibit A of all the problems of Kender.

Well, I never read about Dragonlance, but from what I heard, it had an 'Epic Fantasy' feel to it compared to the likes of the Heroic Fantasy feel of The Forgotten Realms and the Sword and Sorcery of Greyhawk. I am just a sucker for Epic Fantasy, to be honest...

(According to the 5th edition Dungeon master guide)

Nifft
2017-06-10, 08:13 PM
Well, I never read about Dragonlance, but from what I heard, it had an 'Epic Fantasy' feel to it compared to the likes of the Heroic Fantasy feel of The Forgotten Realms and the Sword and Sorcery of Greyhawk. I am just a sucker for Epic Fantasy, to be honest...

(According to the 5th edition Dungeon master guide)

I'm sure Dragonlance felt like Epic Fantasy for the group that played the campaign which got turned into the books.

(You aren't them, though. You will never get to be them.)

At the time they played that campaign, though, Dragonlance was just someone's lovingly crafted homebrew.

CrackedChair
2017-06-10, 08:39 PM
So wait, do Halflings and Kender exist together in Krynn or are the Halflings replaced by them?

Honest Tiefling
2017-06-10, 08:39 PM
So wait, do Halflings and Kender exist together in Krynn or are the Halflings replaced by them?

There are no halflings in Kyrnn, only kender. Kender were devised as a replacement for halflings.

CrackedChair
2017-06-10, 08:41 PM
Yondallha help me, I feel sorry for those people at the table who wanted to play a Halfling, only to realize they were replaced with these blighters.

leoryff
2017-06-10, 08:47 PM
Technically only the first few books were based on Weis and Hickman's games.

And they gave us draconians. Which are various levels of awesome.

lunaticfringe
2017-06-10, 08:50 PM
Technically only the first few books were based on Weis and Hickman's games.

And they gave us draconians. Which are various levels of awesome.

First Dragonarmy Bridging Company was hilarious to my 13 year old self. I'm a huge fan of Dragonlance Elf Killin.

CrackedChair
2017-06-10, 08:52 PM
But aren't Draconians evil Dragonborn? I mean if the Dragonborn are cursed, evil Dragonborn and the Kender are dangerous, blissful Halflings, then man, Krynn is weird.

Honest Tiefling
2017-06-10, 09:01 PM
Personally, I prefer Dragonborn to Draconians, since Draconians are likely to hurt their party when downed, and I don't even know why that is a racial trait.

CrackedChair
2017-06-10, 09:05 PM
So wait, Draconians explode when killed?

Or something among those lines? Man, those races in Dragonlance sure are out to spite us in one way or another...

lunaticfringe
2017-06-10, 09:08 PM
Personally, I prefer Dragonborn to Draconians, since Draconians are likely to hurt their party when downed, and I don't even know why that is a racial trait.

Yeah that was weird, it was mostly to troll PCs I think. I don't really like either, just Slith & Kang when written by Don Perrin. And that was like 20yrs ago so meh.

Max_Killjoy
2017-06-10, 09:09 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kender_(Dragonlance)

What's annoying about them:


Imagine there's a race for that guy who always wants to steal other PC's stuff.

"But I'm just playing my character!"

That guy is a jerk.

That's Kender.


The way they are presented, kender strongly encourage player to troll the rest of the group by being annoying and disruptive. Things that are commonly regarded as unacceptible during play are presented as the proper way to play kenders.


I think it would be more accurate to say that Kender provide a larger than usual shield for problem players to attempt to hide behind. A kender, properly played, is far more likely to steal a string of regular beads off your elven cloak than they are to steal your ancestral sword of messing up enemies real good. And they always give it back when confronted over it.


And to make it worse, as they are presented, the kender are morons in addition to being trolls. They don't feel fear, so they'll just **** with stuff around them. The text IIRC, reads something along the lines of 'The most dangerous thing in Kyrnn is a kender saying 'oops!'. Kender are encouraged to endanger the party because they lack the basic survival instincts of a chipmunk and they got bored.

AND they hate thieves. Despite stealing everything. They can't understand that they are thieves because they keep taking items, or how this might be a problem they should fix. They get OFFENDED at being called thieves.

AND TO MAKE THINGS WORSE: Only really evil people hate them. All good people know that they are pure and good and blah blah blah. So if you murder one because it kept stealing important things like the paladin's sword that he needed to fight the zombie hoard about to eat the orphanage, YOU'RE the evil one, not the insane halfling twit.

And the cherry on top is that these things were invented because the creators wanted to make a thief race that wasn't evil. Because stealing things on purpose to save people is wrong, but stealing things because you are delusional and refuse to understand that you have problems and insist on 'helping' is a-okay.


DING.

Kender are one of those things that give "but I'm just playing doing what my character would do" a bad name.

Honest Tiefling
2017-06-10, 09:12 PM
So wait, Draconians explode when killed?

Most of them do, yes. (Some just turn into stone to trap weapons, which can be really sucky when you're trying to loot)


Yeah that was weird, it was mostly to troll PCs I think. I don't really like either, just Slith & Kang when written by Don Perrin. And that was like 20yrs ago so meh.

I think it's a fine ability for the forces of darkness when they have an endless supply of mooks and need some cannon fodder you don't give a **** about. Except they don't have an endless supply of Draconians and I don't think Draconians were balanced well as a character race due to this drawback, but I could be wrong.

Thrudd
2017-06-10, 09:17 PM
So wait, Draconians explode when killed?

Or something among those lines? Man, those races in Dragonlance sure are out to spite us in one way or another...

Draconians predate Dragonborn by about two decades - so you might say they are the "original" Dragonborn or proto-dragonborn. They are all evil, created by the evil dragon goddess to serve evil dragons, and invented with powers specifically intended to be a powerful pain-in-the-ass for adventurers. Some of them explode when they die, some of them emit poison clouds, some of them have acid blood - you get where this is going.

Lord Raziere
2017-06-10, 09:25 PM
Ok. so heres why Dragonlance is bad:

We all know how stupid Kender are. They're an entire race of Jar-Jar Binks and Tasselhoff is no exception.

But what of the other races? Tinker Gnomes, that are the uselessnwess of Reed-Richards taken to its silliest most impractical extreme? Why not just erase them completely, since they have no effect on anything?

gully dwarves: lets take dwarves, the race that has proven to be perfectly fine race by itself, often being relatable and sympathetic no matter where they go because they the personification of "not broke, don't fix it" and gully dwarves well......why you shouldn't fix dwarves! they're dwarves but with added stupidity. because thats what a race needs: LESS intelligence and more stupid bumpkin shenanigans.

but thats small stuff. lets take a look at how screwed up the stuff thats supposed to be serious is.

first, the ridiculousness that is the Tower of High Sorcery. So your supposed to undergo a test and then pick whether your robes are white, red or black, or y'know good neutral or evil. Yeah, how smart. lets just allow people to choose Black without repercussions and do absolutely nothing about them. Nevermind how we could use the Black Robes as a trap for anyone who wants power and kill them instantly, no. That would be too logical, and why oh why aren't these evil wizards not just all picking white? or just.......taking up tailoring and making a white robe as a disguise? this entire system is stupid given that no one sane person would choose Black, its like asking someone whether they are going to blow up a building with those explosives they have there, no one in their right mind is going to answer "yes". in fact, why are the evil wizards going there in the first place? that will just draw attention to themselves.

but thats not the most stupid thing. lets look at the King priest of Paladine and what he did. he used a crown to become this mind-controlling leader, backed up by racist elves who thought they were perfect, and basically make an orwellian dystopia where everyone gets probed for thought crimes. this is supposed to disrupted the balance to make Good TOO powerful, which is illogical all by itself because this is clearly all evil. Yet the gods bring down their wrath not for this reason, no.

They bring down their wrath because the guy wanted to become a god. everything else? A-OK in their books! The good gods only problem with him was his hubris for trying to be one of them. So yeah, real "good" there. and how do they punish him?

by sending a meteor down in his face and ruining the entire world for everyone else as well. Wow. Are we sure this isn't a balance between evil and another evil? people question why and the gods leave and take away divine power. and then people feel sad because these jerks are gone. for some reason. that I do not comprehend. or ever will.

but thats not the stupidest part.

the stupidest part is the entire concept of a balance between good and evil at all, and how its executed. So lemme get this straight: our choices for the state of the world is either:
1. Good and Evil balanced thus eternal war between two sides that cannot coexist ever.
2. Evil, thus forever darkness and badness and all that selfish stupidity
3. Good, except its not actually good, its just a really shiny Lawful Evil pretending to be good crushing all thought crime to dust. So really, just Evil.

In short, no winning moves at all. your either eternally at war, eternally in a darwinian world of harsh survival, or eternally in a world of orwellian oppression. good isn't actually Good and is just another evil, and the best you can hope for is a world in constant conflict, suffering and so on. which isn't all that different from either of the other two scenarios, given that any oppressive regime would start violently putting down revolts sooner or later.

Meaning, the entire "balance of good and evil" concept of the setting is meaningless and is just there to make sure pointless conflict continues on forever without end, that failure is the only option and that all possible states of the world only strengthen evil, suffering and pain. there is absolutely no point to changing anything especially given the medieval stasis nature of the setting. or single guy does something stupid involving gods and just makes everything worse.

It is all the most stupid and thoughtless flaws of such fantasy (jerk gods that are supposedly "good", jar-jar-binks like characters and races, balance of good and evil, color-coded nonsense that would never actually fly) and takes them to stupid extremes for no reason. its all so artificial, contrived and fake that it doesn't feel like an actual world, just a poorly constructed thing of fantasy tropes that don't make sense.

because guess what? the people who created the setting, did what they did with Halflings to make them Kender, with the entire rest of the setting as well: take normal fantasy and all its flaws and then double down on the flaws while making it all seem as if its cutesy and campy to the point where you can't buy into anything about it and see no point in playing there, because everything has already been done like in Forgotten Realms, but with the above added nonsense. The only reason being that Forgotten Realms get more flack is because its the main setting and therefore gets the most updates and more people saying it sucks, when really both Dragonlance and FR are bad.

if you want a generic setting, you don't even need FR or Dragonlance anymore, you know the archetypes and can probably make it yourself easily.

CrackedChair
2017-06-10, 09:32 PM
Ok. so heres why Dragonlance is bad:

We all know how stupid Kender are. They're an entire race of Jar-Jar Binks and Tasselhoff is no exception.

But what of the other races? Tinker Gnomes, that are the uselessnwess of Reed-Richards taken to its silliest most impractical extreme? Why not just erase them completely, since they have no effect on anything?

gully dwarves: lets take dwarves, the race that has proven to be perfectly fine race by itself, often being relatable and sympathetic no matter where they go because they the personification of "not broke, don't fix it" and gully dwarves well......why you shouldn't fix dwarves! they're dwarves but with added stupidity. because thats what a race needs: LESS intelligence and more stupid bumpkin shenanigans.

but thats small stuff. lets take a look at how screwed up the stuff thats supposed to be serious is.

first, the ridiculousness that is the Tower of High Sorcery. So your supposed to undergo a test and then pick whether your robes are white, red or black, or y'know good neutral or evil. Yeah, how smart. lets just allow people to choose Black without repercussions and do absolutely nothing about them. Nevermind how we could use the Black Robes as a trap for anyone who wants power and kill them instantly, no. That would be too logical, and why oh why aren't these evil wizards not just all picking white? or just.......taking up tailoring and making a white robe as a disguise? this entire system is stupid given that no one sane person would choose Black, its like asking someone whether they are going to blow up a building with those explosives they have there, no one in their right mind is going to answer "yes". in fact, why are the evil wizards going there in the first place? that will just draw attention to themselves.

but thats not the most stupid thing. lets look at the King priest of Paladine and what he did. he used a crown to become this mind-controlling leader, backed up by racist elves who thought they were perfect, and basically make an orwellian dystopia where everyone gets probed for thought crimes. this is supposed to disrupted the balance to make Good TOO powerful, which is illogical all by itself because this is clearly all evil. Yet the gods bring down their wrath not for this reason, no.

They bring down their wrath because the guy wanted to become a god. everything else? A-OK in their books! The good gods only problem with him was his hubris for trying to be one of them. So yeah, real "good" there. and how do they punish him?

by sending a meteor down in his face and ruining the entire world for everyone else as well. Wow. Are we sure this isn't a balance between evil and another evil? people question why and the gods leave and take away divine power. and then people feel sad because these jerks are gone. for some reason. that I do not comprehend. or ever will.

but thats not the stupidest part.

the stupidest part is the entire concept of a balance between good and evil at all, and how its executed. So lemme get this straight: our choices for the state of the world is either:
1. Good and Evil balanced thus eternal war between two sides that cannot coexist ever.
2. Evil, thus forever darkness and badness and all that selfish stupidity
3. Good, except its not actually good, its just a really shiny Lawful Evil pretending to be good crushing all thought crime to dust. So really, just Evil.

In short, no winning moves at all. your either eternally at war, eternally in a darwinian world of harsh survival, or eternally in a world of orwellian oppression. good isn't actually Good and is just another evil, and the best you can hope for is a world in constant conflict, suffering and so on. which isn't all that different from either of the other two scenarios, given that any oppressive regime would start violently putting down revolts sooner or later.

Meaning, the entire "balance of good and evil" concept of the setting is meaningless and is just there to make sure pointless conflict continues on forever without end, that failure is the only option and that all possible states of the world only strengthen evil, suffering and pain. there is absolutely no point to changing anything especially given the medieval stasis nature of the setting. or single guy does something stupid involving gods and just makes everything worse.

It is all the most stupid and thoughtless flaws of such fantasy (jerk gods that are supposedly "good", jar-jar-binks like characters and races, balance of good and evil, color-coded nonsense that would never actually fly) and takes them to stupid extremes for no reason. its all so artificial, contrived and fake that it doesn't feel like an actual world, just a poorly constructed thing of fantasy tropes that don't make sense.

because guess what? the people who created the setting, did what they did with Halflings to make them Kender, with the entire rest of the setting as well: take normal fantasy and all its flaws and then double down on the flaws while making it all seem as if its cutesy and campy to the point where you can't buy into anything about it and see no point in playing there, because everything has already been done like in Forgotten Realms, but with the above added nonsense. The only reason being that Forgotten Realms get more flack is because its the main setting and therefore gets the most updates and more people saying it sucks, when really both Dragonlance and FR are bad.

if you want a generic setting, you don't even need FR or Dragonlance anymore, you know the archetypes and can probably make it yourself easily.

Woah, that, erm, really speaks volumes of Dragonlance.

What is Dragonlance intended for, anyways? With a setting with cliches like that, I'd guess it might be intended for younger audiences...

Shadow_in_the_Mist
2017-06-10, 09:44 PM
Well, I'm not entirely sure if it's "intended", but, really, the War of the Lance (the initial three modules/novels) are essentially what happens if you try to with D&D for Mormonism what Narnia attempted to do for Christianity with fantasy literature.

Weiss & Hickmann were devout Mormons, and lots of Mormon beliefs/theology is used, sometimes blatantly - for example, that's the whole point of Goldmoon and Riverwind, who basically derive from the Mormon belief that the Native Americans descend from the Lost Tribe of Israel.

But, seriously, what Lord Raziere said about the Cataclysm and the "balance of good and evil" is exactly why I have never been able to truly like Dragonlance. The abysmal fluff for the "comedic relief" races plays its part, of course, but the fact it touts this claptrap as part of its background lore, it just incenses me.

I can't honestly be the only person who sees how morally messed up this is, right? I can't be the one guy in the D&D world who sees "The Balance had swayed too far towards Good" and goes "What the flipping (Censored)!?" - in what freaking world are you living in where racial pogroms, mind-reading inquisitions, and general persecution are somehow "Good" just because the people responsible believe they're serving the greater good?

I mean, hashbrowns on a stick, I hate to invoke Godwin's Law, but that's literally like saying the committers of anti-Semitic pogroms throughout history were well-intentioned extremists! They thought they were doing God's Work by exterminating the heretics who murdered Our Lord And Saviour Jesus Christ, after all!

Oh, and, somehow, it's the mortals' fault that the gods went away after the Cataclysm and we should feel bad that they left and we should want them back! From where I'm sitting, it looks pretty much like the opposite! Why the hosannah should we want the victim-blaming, self-righteous, moronic deities back if the Cataclysm was honestly their idea of the best way to handle the Kingpriest and his cronies?

I know that D&D alignment has always been a messed up tangle of worms and that getting rid of it was the best thing that 4e and 5e did, but seriously, if Dragonlance really is a look into the moral beliefs of its authors, that's actually kind of scary...

leoryff
2017-06-10, 09:52 PM
I will never understand how people can hate something so much and continue to read it in such detail.

lunaticfringe
2017-06-10, 09:53 PM
Most of them do, yes. (Some just turn into stone to trap weapons, which can be really sucky when you're trying to loot)



I think it's a fine ability for the forces of darkness when they have an endless supply of mooks and need some cannon fodder you don't give a **** about. Except they don't have an endless supply of Draconians and I don't think Draconians were balanced well as a character race due to this drawback, but I could be wrong.

A valid point, but I think you are missing one of the only truly awesomely evil things about Dragonlance. They weren't supposed to be an endless, they were supposed to be Not Good Guys. All those Draconians were supposed to be Good Dragons. Like a whole generation of Supreme Badass Smash Evil Dragons are exploding Satan worshipping foot soldiers of Doom. That's some evil genius stuff right there.

Keltest
2017-06-10, 09:54 PM
Ok. so heres why Dragonlance is bad:

We all know how stupid Kender are. They're an entire race of Jar-Jar Binks and Tasselhoff is no exception.

But what of the other races? Tinker Gnomes, that are the uselessnwess of Reed-Richards taken to its silliest most impractical extreme? Why not just erase them completely, since they have no effect on anything?

gully dwarves: lets take dwarves, the race that has proven to be perfectly fine race by itself, often being relatable and sympathetic no matter where they go because they the personification of "not broke, don't fix it" and gully dwarves well......why you shouldn't fix dwarves! they're dwarves but with added stupidity. because thats what a race needs: LESS intelligence and more stupid bumpkin shenanigans.

but thats small stuff. lets take a look at how screwed up the stuff thats supposed to be serious is.

first, the ridiculousness that is the Tower of High Sorcery. So your supposed to undergo a test and then pick whether your robes are white, red or black, or y'know good neutral or evil. Yeah, how smart. lets just allow people to choose Black without repercussions and do absolutely nothing about them. Nevermind how we could use the Black Robes as a trap for anyone who wants power and kill them instantly, no. That would be too logical, and why oh why aren't these evil wizards not just all picking white? or just.......taking up tailoring and making a white robe as a disguise? this entire system is stupid given that no one sane person would choose Black, its like asking someone whether they are going to blow up a building with those explosives they have there, no one in their right mind is going to answer "yes". in fact, why are the evil wizards going there in the first place? that will just draw attention to themselves.

but thats not the most stupid thing. lets look at the King priest of Paladine and what he did. he used a crown to become this mind-controlling leader, backed up by racist elves who thought they were perfect, and basically make an orwellian dystopia where everyone gets probed for thought crimes. this is supposed to disrupted the balance to make Good TOO powerful, which is illogical all by itself because this is clearly all evil. Yet the gods bring down their wrath not for this reason, no.

They bring down their wrath because the guy wanted to become a god. everything else? A-OK in their books! The good gods only problem with him was his hubris for trying to be one of them. So yeah, real "good" there. and how do they punish him?

by sending a meteor down in his face and ruining the entire world for everyone else as well. Wow. Are we sure this isn't a balance between evil and another evil? people question why and the gods leave and take away divine power. and then people feel sad because these jerks are gone. for some reason. that I do not comprehend. or ever will.

but thats not the stupidest part.

the stupidest part is the entire concept of a balance between good and evil at all, and how its executed. So lemme get this straight: our choices for the state of the world is either:
1. Good and Evil balanced thus eternal war between two sides that cannot coexist ever.
2. Evil, thus forever darkness and badness and all that selfish stupidity
3. Good, except its not actually good, its just a really shiny Lawful Evil pretending to be good crushing all thought crime to dust. So really, just Evil.

In short, no winning moves at all. your either eternally at war, eternally in a darwinian world of harsh survival, or eternally in a world of orwellian oppression. good isn't actually Good and is just another evil, and the best you can hope for is a world in constant conflict, suffering and so on. which isn't all that different from either of the other two scenarios, given that any oppressive regime would start violently putting down revolts sooner or later.

Meaning, the entire "balance of good and evil" concept of the setting is meaningless and is just there to make sure pointless conflict continues on forever without end, that failure is the only option and that all possible states of the world only strengthen evil, suffering and pain. there is absolutely no point to changing anything especially given the medieval stasis nature of the setting. or single guy does something stupid involving gods and just makes everything worse.

It is all the most stupid and thoughtless flaws of such fantasy (jerk gods that are supposedly "good", jar-jar-binks like characters and races, balance of good and evil, color-coded nonsense that would never actually fly) and takes them to stupid extremes for no reason. its all so artificial, contrived and fake that it doesn't feel like an actual world, just a poorly constructed thing of fantasy tropes that don't make sense.

because guess what? the people who created the setting, did what they did with Halflings to make them Kender, with the entire rest of the setting as well: take normal fantasy and all its flaws and then double down on the flaws while making it all seem as if its cutesy and campy to the point where you can't buy into anything about it and see no point in playing there, because everything has already been done like in Forgotten Realms, but with the above added nonsense. The only reason being that Forgotten Realms get more flack is because its the main setting and therefore gets the most updates and more people saying it sucks, when really both Dragonlance and FR are bad.

if you want a generic setting, you don't even need FR or Dragonlance anymore, you know the archetypes and can probably make it yourself easily.

The Cataclysm and surrounding lore are stupid things, admittedly (the Kingpriest was evil, full stop. That he paid lip service to Paladin doesn't make him and his actions Good), but the Tower of High Sorcery is perfectly fine because if you start murdering all the black robes, then the gods of magic will get mad at you and do all sorts of unpleasant things to you. Magic in dragonlance is a direct gift from the three cousin gods of magic, and they are pretty united in not wanting their wizards infighting based on the colors of their robes.

Thrudd
2017-06-10, 10:02 PM
They invented the setting for a series of AD&D modules they were planning (which developed out of D&D games they were playing), and then wrote books that followed the plot of the modules. Then the books were popular, and more people got hired to write more books fleshing out the setting further.
It's just another D&D setting, really. It was intended as a D&D adventure in a generic D&D world where the players fight some evil dragons, and kind of spiraled out of control.

It is quite juvenile in a lot of ways - I read the books when I was somewhere around 10-12 years old, and I thought Tasslehoff and the gnomes and the gully dwarves were hilarious. I also loved Ewoks ever since I saw RoTJ in the theater as a little boy. So yeah, I guess you could say Dragonlance is a setting that might have a lot of appeal to preteens, for its color-coded moral simplicity and built-in comic relief characters. When I looked at the books again as an older teen and as an adult, I could not find what I had enjoyed about them the first time.

Talakeal
2017-06-10, 10:05 PM
Not trying to start a alignment war, but punishing those who do wrong to you (intentionally or unintentionally) is not an inherently evil or good act. You're simply standing up for yourself and not letting people push you around. If someone put the lives of an entire orphanage at risk, you're damn right I would expect him to get lashed and imprisoned at the least.



Having a "thief race" of any kind is never going to result in anything but poor characterization. One of the most interesting things you can do with a thief is explore why they steal, and having a race that just does it "because that's their culture" is just frustrating. whatever characters you have of that race are immediately unrelatable because they don't have motivations for what they do. the Kajiiht from Skyrim have many thieves in their ranks because discrimination from other races gave them very few ways to sustain themselves. Why do the Kender steal? Because that's just what they do.

Kender are supposed to be childlike. If you replaced "kender" with "child" in the OP would you feel the same way?

leoryff
2017-06-10, 10:11 PM
I'd like to point to the Chaos War series in regards to decent subversions of the the black and white morality issues.

Max_Killjoy
2017-06-10, 10:17 PM
The Cataclysm and surrounding lore are stupid things, admittedly (the Kingpriest was evil, full stop. That he paid lip service to Paladin doesn't make him and his actions Good), but the Tower of High Sorcery is perfectly fine because if you start murdering all the black robes, then the gods of magic will get mad at you and do all sorts of unpleasant things to you. Magic in dragonlance is a direct gift from the three cousin gods of magic, and they are pretty united in not wanting their wizards infighting based on the colors of their robes.


Sounds more like a good cause for deicide.

Dragonexx
2017-06-10, 10:23 PM
Kender are a prime example of things that are okay in books and single-author narratives not translating at all into shared narratives. In a single author narrative, the author has everything planned out, so they have complete control over the characters actions.

In a shared narrative like a role-play, that doesn't exist. So character traits written for kender can easily be turned into an excuse to be a disruptive *******.

Also, yeah, dragonlance kinda of appeals to preteens and teenagers. I remember enjoying reading the books a while back. Looking back, it's basically, all the pretensions and assumptions about D&D taken to ridiculous extremes. Not unworkable, but it's at it's best when it's self-aware.

Honest Tiefling
2017-06-10, 10:24 PM
A valid point, but I think you are missing one of the only truly awesomely evil things about Dragonlance. They weren't supposed to be an endless, they were supposed to be Not Good Guys. All those Draconians were supposed to be Good Dragons. Like a whole generation of Supreme Badass Smash Evil Dragons are exploding Satan worshipping foot soldiers of Doom. That's some evil genius stuff right there.

Yeah. They corrupted good dragons and made something sucky in comparison. Draconians aren't the equal of a dragon by far. Also, since they EXPLODE for DnD reasons, the armies of darkness can't use mixed unit tactics or recover arms. So they're not the Foot Soldiers of Doom, they're the Foot Soliders of Maybe We Should Follow A Goddess Who Knows What Clothes Are.

The 'balance' between good and evil in some settings really gets to me. It basically says you have to allow some evil or the world ends. I'm sorry Timmy, we can't bring your family back from the dead after orcs killed them because we need evil, or everything explodes. The connection between the imbalance and things going to **** don't always match up, like the Priest King getting obliterated because the gods got their collective panties in a twist.

Oh, and that Cataclysm? The one that nearly destroyed the world? Yeah, two good-aligned gods really only felt the need to inform ONE fallen Knight. So the fate of the world basically rested on one dude's shoulders who was already showing signs of being sorta evil. Let's just have him decide if thousands die or not, instead of informing multiple people.

Shadow_in_the_Mist
2017-06-10, 10:25 PM
The whole "wearing your alignment on your shirt" aspect of the robes was a stupid idea, but it's actually got a sensible basis: each tower focuses on two specific kinds of magic, so they work as a way of signifying "this is the kind of magic I have dedicated my life to mastering".

White Robes mark you as an Abjurer or a Diviner, Red Robes as an Illusionist or Transmuter, and Black Robes as an Enchanter or Necromancer.

If they'd focused on that and not so much being Good/Neutral/Evil, it actually wouldn't be so silly an idea, personally.

Lord Raziere
2017-06-10, 10:26 PM
The Cataclysm and surrounding lore are stupid things, admittedly (the Kingpriest was evil, full stop. That he paid lip service to Paladin doesn't make him and his actions Good), but the Tower of High Sorcery is perfectly fine because if you start murdering all the black robes, then the gods of magic will get mad at you and do all sorts of unpleasant things to you. Magic in dragonlance is a direct gift from the three cousin gods of magic, and they are pretty united in not wanting their wizards infighting based on the colors of their robes.

So the three gods of magic are idiots then?

Because evil people don't care about rules, not really. they're going to kill people to get secrets from white and red mages anyways regardless of whether its actually needed or not, because thats what Evil IS: Achieving selfish goals regardless of the cost to yourself, other people or the world and screw the consequences. Black mages are going to black mage and kill the white and red regardless.

the white and red gods are idiots because they haven't kicked the evil one out yet. the evil one can take advantage of the situation to just abuse his position to get all that he wants without red or white doing anything about it apparently like an evil god should, but apparently doesn't bother because he is an idiot. so if they're united in this, and the wizards are supposed to put morality aside, why are there three colors at all? just make them one god, make the wizards wear one kind of robe that signifies that they when they wear it, they are putting aside their morality good or evil to share knowledge with their fellow wizards without asking questions and you make mildly more sense than the current set up. Wizard Anonymity so to speak.

putting in three colors, just invites conflict and division while painting targets on the black wizards back, because any white wizard worth their intelligence stat can let their good aligned friends know and set up ambushes for their evil wizard enemies to die, and vice-versa. again, the entire setting is just barely disguised color-coded nonsense designed to make sure nothing but eternal conflict can be achieved.

Honest Tiefling
2017-06-10, 10:42 PM
the white and red gods are idiots because they haven't kicked the evil one out yet.

IIRC, the god of evil magic had a tendency to prefer working with the other two gods of magic and hated the other evil gods. He tended to try to keep things from breaking apart horribly, even if he did promote necromancy and revenge.

I don't know if he's ever done anything actually evil or if he's just faking it to seem dark and mysterious.

Talakeal
2017-06-11, 01:41 AM
Couple of things bugging me:

1: Gods going nude or near nude is cultural trope that is older than ancient Greece, hardly a peculiarity of Dragonlance.

2: Good People being "smart enough" to kill evil people on sight is exactly the sort of thing that caused the Cataclysm.

3: Someone can ge a good person and still hurt and oppress other good people, usually "for their own good" or to "save their soul" simply because they were raised in a different cultural or religious context.

Dappershire
2017-06-11, 02:46 AM
Ok. so heres why Dragonlance is bad:

snip.


Wow, that's a lot of hate. I expected it, seeing this is a Kender thread, but for DL alone?

Maybe I'm biased. I started playing when I was ten, 22 years ago. I've been playing the same Kender off and on ever since. So I'll focus on that first.

Yes, they take things. It can be annoying. Which is why a good effect is to have the DM simply switch some random gear from one character's list, into yours. Your fellow players, every rest period, or before every dungeon, can simply ask to look through the Kender's pouches for any missing stuff he may have "found". Literally takes two minutes, but adds entire levels of roleplay potential. The Kender will allow it, because yeah, he totally found what youre missing. Kept it safe this whole time.

Fearlessness. Sounds great, but has lots of complaints. Because for some reason you think an intelligent being who cares deeply about his fellow party members is going to endanger their lives by bopping every dragon on the nose because he can. (While funny on occasion, its only a viable technique if you plan on combatting the dragon already.) It's basically akin to the Paladin's immunity to fear. Sure, you can play it lawful stupid, and charge in to every threat without a plan. Or you can listen to the party leader, and let them tell you how your immunity might best be utilized. IE, bait.

Annoyance. Kender are famous for being annoying. Their curiosity. Their war starting insults. None of which has to be used against the party. Mooing at an enemy Minotaur is fine. Telling the party Draconian that he looks like the boots you got for your mother, is not.

Simply put; Kender aren't bad characters. They just attract annoying, immature players. If you have any experience at all, you know to avoid tables with those players, so any Kender you meet should be entertaining and fun. Also, Tasslehoff was amazeballs, you're all crazy.


As for the other races, Tinker Gnomes are an amazing concept. They introduce technology into a medieval fantasy, while being completely unusable for the most part. It answers the question "If this era has been going for so long, why hasn't anyone invented gunpowder?" We all know the answer is usually "shut up and put on your full plate", but this actually works to give us something few other RPGs bother with, other then to say "magic."
Gully Dwarves, despite the name, aren't Dwarves. That was a racist term used to mock actual dwarves. They are Aghar. Uneducated, cute/ugly little bastards, that live in garbage heaps and other places that civilized races don't care to live. They are incredible survivors, and despite living in very similar conditions to the Goblins of other RPGs, they aren't evil or violent. While they make for a very underoptimized PC, they are flavorful, and give answer to the question on what happens when you leave an entire culture on its own in horrible circumstances. Poverty, hunger, lack of social and mental skills. Likely inbreeding. Harmless. I've enjoyed my time playing one as a warrior.
The Tower of High Sorcery. Look at the name. High Sorcery. This is the place you go if you don't want to be a hedgewizard for the rest of your life. They monopolized magic. In fighting would destroy the political power that comes with that. Not to mention what has already been said. Wizards worship Gods. Wizardry is practically divine magic on its own on Krynn. I doubt he moons would be happy to see an entire third of wizards eradicated. That, and they work well together. Black robes with White with Red. Equals, just with different ideas on how Magic should be utilized.
I see your point about the Cataclysm Plot. I wont question it.
But the complaints about alignment are completely different then how I viewed them. I thought their was nothing cooler then when I learned about the Knights of Takhisis. Lawful Evil, fully functional Knighthood. Not just a mirror image of the Solamnic Order. Yeah, they had three tiers, but unlike the Solamnic's (white knights, shining armor) each branch of the Takhisis Knights actually did something. From the mages, to the clerics, to the warriors. All in armor. All eradicating crime and sorrow with an iron fist. They out Baned Bane(forgotten realms, not batman). Nobody had done anything like that at the time, and I thought it was flavorful and awesome.


Tl;dr Kender are far more fun to play and play alongside, then most give them credit for.

Elysiume
2017-06-11, 03:36 AM
Looking through another player's character sheet to see what they lifted off of me would maybe be amusing once. And never again. Out of character, I'd find it annoying. In character, I'd be pissed that someone was stealing my stuff, because no matter how they try to force it, kleptomania is not an endearing character trait.

Lord Raziere
2017-06-11, 04:15 AM
Couple of things bugging me:

1: Gods going nude or near nude is cultural trope that is older than ancient Greece, hardly a peculiarity of Dragonlance.

2: Good People being "smart enough" to kill evil people on sight is exactly the sort of thing that caused the Cataclysm.

3: Someone can ge a good person and still hurt and oppress other good people, usually "for their own good" or to "save their soul" simply because they were raised in a different cultural or religious context.

1: what does this have to do with anything? this point seems pretty random

2: No, Good people being "smart enough" to start applying hammers to everyone that should only be used in a certain few specific cases is what caused the Cataclysm. Thought-crime is hardly "on sight"

3. Evil by a different name. The Road to Hell is paved with good intentions, and mapped by ignorance, stubbornness, narrow-mindedness and stupidity. They either learn to change their context, widen it to figure out that they've screwed up and get educated, or they're just being apart of the problem. Ignorance because of your culture or religion only excuses the first time, not the second.

Keltest
2017-06-11, 07:07 AM
Sounds more like a good cause for deicide.

Shockingly enough, destroying the beings that manage a fundamental aspect of the world also tends to break that aspect.

Plus, you know, its the peak of ingratitude to get a gift like magic of all things and decide that youre going to kill the guys who gave it to you because you have to join a guild and use it responsibly if you want to use it.

Pugwampy
2017-06-11, 07:10 AM
Ahh Dragonlance . My favorite DND novels . I recall as 15 yr old asking my english teacher the same question , whats a Kender ?

His answer was pretty vague . His answer was along the lines of Mischievous stupid little buggers.

I made the connection with hobbits a bit later.

The fantasy books are awesome but I think it would be a nightmare to apply this world and lore to tabletop.

Keltest
2017-06-11, 07:12 AM
So the three gods of magic are idiots then?

Because evil people don't care about rules, not really. they're going to kill people to get secrets from white and red mages anyways regardless of whether its actually needed or not, because thats what Evil IS: Achieving selfish goals regardless of the cost to yourself, other people or the world and screw the consequences. Black mages are going to black mage and kill the white and red regardless.

Evil cares plenty about rules. You've confused evil with chaotic. Evil is selfish and seeks power but is perfectly capable of loyalty to a cause or person as well.

Plus, the ones who break the rules are declared renegades and hunted down by the entire rest of the guild and forced to either re-submit to the rules, or are killed really hard, depending on how much they've done. So it isn't like they just take their word for it that they'll play nice.

The goal is to protect the interest of magic and mages so that a wizard can walk down the street to buy a loaf of bread for lunch without being attacked by an angry mob.

goto124
2017-06-11, 07:31 AM
or are killed really hard

I like how this actually makes sense in a fantasy setting.

RazorChain
2017-06-11, 07:38 AM
Here is the problem

Most roleplayers see that the Kenders as a race are annoying gits. Now if your typical roleplayer decides to play a Kender he might tone down the "annyoing gittiness" of the race and be an annoying git "off screen" or be a comic sidekick. The player goes out of his way not to be a nuisance to the rest of the party.

Then we have a certain kind of player, let's call the type an annoying git. The annoying git sees a Kender and instantly falls for the race because it feels like it was written for him so he can channel all of his annoying gittiness through play! Now the annoying git starts to play a Kender and he cranks up being annoying git all the way to 11 and ends up having his character killed by the rest of the party or just kicked out of the group if he isn't a friend.

That is why Kenders don't exist if somebody asks me to play one.

Dappershire
2017-06-11, 08:10 AM
Plus, you know, its the peak of ingratitude to get a gift like magic of all things and decide that youre going to kill the guys who gave it to you because you have to join a guild and use it responsibly if you want to use it.

One of Raistlin's lesser known titles was Magic Dude of Ingratitude. True story.




Plus, the ones who break the rules are declared renegades and hunted down by the entire rest of the guild and forced to either re-submit to the rules, or are killed really hard, depending on how much they've done. So it isn't like they just take their word for it that they'll play nice.
.

Oh man, I forgot about that. I remember a game, our party had a White robe wizard. And we were hired to hunt down a renegade. Dude was an awesome guy. Using his magic to help local villagers rebuild farmland after its destruction. Saving lives and creating joy everywhere he went. Just didn't feel like joining up with a group. After the capture, our mage spent a week of travel trying to talk this guy into joining up. For the good of magic, for the people he could save. Basically putting down a bullet list of good things. Nothing worked. We turned him in, and he simply got turned over to the Black Robed leader. Probably more effective than bullet lists.

Max_Killjoy
2017-06-11, 09:25 AM
3: Someone can be a good person and still hurt and oppress other good people, usually "for their own good" or to "save their soul" simply because they were raised in a different cultural or religious context.


Just because they think they're good, or have what they think of as good intentions, doesn't make them good. Not only are intent and action both important... if they're willing to hurt, oppress, and control people "for their own good", they're probably not all that good anyway. Far too much evil has been done while the people doing it said "this is for your own good" for anyone being truly honest with themselves to see that as justification.



Kender are supposed to be childlike. If you replaced "kender" with "child" in the OP would you feel the same way?

Adult kender aren't children, though. If they want to interact with the adult world as adults, they need to be adult-like, not child-like.

Max_Killjoy
2017-06-11, 09:48 AM
The Cataclysm and surrounding lore are stupid things, admittedly (the Kingpriest was evil, full stop. That he paid lip service to Paladin doesn't make him and his actions Good), but the Tower of High Sorcery is perfectly fine because if you start murdering all the black robes, then the gods of magic will get mad at you and do all sorts of unpleasant things to you. Magic in dragonlance is a direct gift from the three cousin gods of magic, and they are pretty united in not wanting their wizards infighting based on the colors of their robes.



Sounds more like a good cause for deicide.



Shockingly enough, destroying the beings that manage a fundamental aspect of the world also tends to break that aspect.

Plus, you know, its the peak of ingratitude to get a gift like magic of all things and decide that youre going to kill the guys who gave it to you because you have to join a guild and use it responsibly if you want to use it.



Oh man, I forgot about that. I remember a game, our party had a White robe wizard. And we were hired to hunt down a renegade. Dude was an awesome guy. Using his magic to help local villagers rebuild farmland after its destruction. Saving lives and creating joy everywhere he went. Just didn't feel like joining up with a group. After the capture, our mage spent a week of travel trying to talk this guy into joining up. For the good of magic, for the people he could save. Basically putting down a bullet list of good things. Nothing worked. We turned him in, and he simply got turned over to the Black Robed leader. Probably more effective than bullet lists.



Sounds like it needs to be broken. Sounds like their idea of "responsible" includes doing more to go after people who just want to use magic in peace, than to stop people who openly declare their intention to do evil.

But then, in myth and fiction, most gods are terrible creatures who the mortals would be better off without.

Keltest
2017-06-11, 10:34 AM
Sounds like it needs to be broken. Sounds like their idea of "responsible" includes doing more to go after people who just want to use magic in peace, than to stop people who openly declare their intention to do evil.

But then, in myth and fiction, most gods are terrible creatures who the mortals would be better off without.

People who want to just use magic in peace are perfectly allowed to. Its only the ones who want to achieve SUPREME MAGICAL POWER that need to go through the Order or get brought into line. If youre content never casting anything stronger than a fireball, they wont force you to do anything.

digiman619
2017-06-11, 11:19 AM
Kender are supposed to be childlike. If you replaced "kender" with "child" in the OP would you feel the same way?

Two things: 1) While child soldiers are unfortunately a real thing, as a general rule, most parties don't approve of them. Moreover, actual child soldiers have more discipline than Kender do, and b) ignoring child soldiers as a concept, you know why this analogy fails? Because eventually, an actual child will grow up (assuming they don't die in the mean time, obviously). How long was Tas an adventurer. Did he ever change? Did he at any point in the narrative even hint that he was even capable of it?

Lord Raziere
2017-06-11, 11:20 AM
Evil cares plenty about rules. You've confused evil with chaotic. Evil is selfish and seeks power but is perfectly capable of loyalty to a cause or person as well.

Plus, the ones who break the rules are declared renegades and hunted down by the entire rest of the guild and forced to either re-submit to the rules, or are killed really hard, depending on how much they've done. So it isn't like they just take their word for it that they'll play nice.

The goal is to protect the interest of magic and mages so that a wizard can walk down the street to buy a loaf of bread for lunch without being attacked by an angry mob.

Well you are right in the sense that why would evil break the rules, when all the rules laid out already benefit evil and only evil?

Good/Evil Balance: this means that Good is not succeeding in the goal of making the world a better place because Evil exists and is hurting people, and war is hell. Evil Wins
Evil: this means Good has failed and Evil rules in its most purest form, of darwinian survival. Evil Wins
Good: this just means good has failed in a different manner, only causing oppression and the gods destroying everything because the people below aren't living up to their standards, which is not Good at all. Evil Wins.

while white and red mages? they could conduct their research without needing the protection, because they are WHITE and RED MAGES. Good and Neutral. Evil Mages are the only ones benefiting. So, an Evil Mage can conduct whatever screwed up research they want in the name of wizard science without a White Mage doing anything about it, but a White Mage would be doing the same exact same research regardless of whether Black Robes exist or not meaning:

Black Robes: Hey White Rober, I'm going to find a few innocent villagers? I need to test how many I really need to sacrifice to summon a demon. Here. In This tower. Just letting you know, since you can't do anything about it, because they're not wizards like us. Bye.
White Robes: You......freaking.... monster. Guess I can't do anything about it.

goto124
2017-06-11, 11:33 AM
Why do literally Evil mages even need to exist again? Oh right, because we need to keep an Evil god who needs to be there because... I'm not sure. Balance of Good and Evil? Where Good is closer to a tyrannical Lawful Evil and Evil is still evil?

Keltest
2017-06-11, 11:37 AM
Well you are right in the sense that why would evil break the rules, when all the rules laid out already benefit evil and only evil?

Good/Evil Balance: this means that Good is not succeeding in the goal of making the world a better place because Evil exists and is hurting people, and war is hell. Evil Wins
Evil: this means Good has failed and Evil rules in its most purest form, of darwinian survival. Evil Wins
Good: this just means good has failed in a different manner, only causing oppression and the gods destroying everything because the people below aren't living up to their standards, which is not Good at all. Evil Wins.

while white and red mages? they could conduct their research without needing the protection, because they are WHITE and RED MAGES. Good and Neutral. Evil Mages are the only ones benefiting. So, an Evil Mage can conduct whatever screwed up research they want in the name of wizard science without a White Mage doing anything about it, but a White Mage would be doing the same exact same research regardless of whether Black Robes exist or not meaning:

Black Robes: Hey White Rober, I'm going to find a few innocent villagers? I need to test how many I really need to sacrifice to summon a demon. Here. In This tower. Just letting you know, since you can't do anything about it, because they're not wizards like us. Bye.
White Robes: You......freaking.... monster. Guess I can't do anything about it.

Yes, I suppose if you assume that the black robes have absolutely no restrictions on what they do, it comes off as being in their favor.

Or, we could assume that the rules are meant to keep the peace between different factions of mages rather than to actively protect the absolute most evil wizard from repercussions.

Nifft
2017-06-11, 11:52 AM
Why do literally Evil mages even need to exist again? Oh right, because we need to keep an Evil god who needs to be there because... I'm not sure. Balance of Good and Evil? Where Good is closer to a tyrannical Lawful Evil and Evil is still evil?

The balance of good vs evil in DCS never really made sense to me, but it was a central setting conceit, and apparently many people found it usable in their games.

Lord Raziere
2017-06-11, 11:59 AM
Yes, I suppose if you assume that the black robes have absolutely no restrictions on what they do, it comes off as being in their favor.

Or, we could assume that the rules are meant to keep the peace between different factions of mages rather than to actively protect the absolute most evil wizard from repercussions.

Yes but if they are EVIL, why does there need to be peace between them and Good anyways? Any research they want to do, a White or Red Mage won't want to know because what the Black Mage want to know is probably something horrible. Just because there are rules, doesn't mean they serve their purpose well. People have been abusing rules since the dawn of time for their own advantage. Who are the people most likely to do that? Black Robes. Who are the people most likely to trick White and Red Robes into getting into trouble for breaking the rules and thus killed? Black Robes. Who are the most likely to take over once that is done? Black Robes.

At no point does Evil have any actual reason to play nice. Whatever happens, they win. In the current situation, they win. Because all the evil wizards are free to do their experiments for their evil ends. and your adorable if you think they're going to be honest about conducting experiments that are against the rules. Peace With Evil is just a victory for an evil that hasn't killed you yet. Thats why its called Evil.

Keltest
2017-06-11, 12:06 PM
Yes but if they are EVIL, why does there need to be peace between them and Good anyways? Any research they want to do, a White or Red Mage won't want to know because what the Black Mage want to know is probably something horrible. Just because there are rules, doesn't mean they serve their purpose well. People have been abusing rules since the dawn of time for their own advantage. Who are the people most likely to do that? Black Robes. Who are the people most likely to trick White and Red Robes into getting into trouble for breaking the rules and thus killed? Black Robes. Who are the most likely to take over once that is done? Black Robes.

At no point does Evil have any actual reason to play nice. Whatever happens, they win. In the current situation, they win. Because all the evil wizards are free to do their experiments for their evil ends. and your adorable if you think they're going to be honest about conducting experiments that are against the rules. Peace With Evil is just a victory for an evil that hasn't killed you yet. Thats why its called Evil.

why on earth would you think that a black robe is incapable of research that a white robe would be interested in? do they not need antidotes for toxins? stronger defense spells? good scrying devices? most wizards, including black robes, aren't interested in conquest or domination, they just want to further their understanding and control of magic.

Lord Raziere
2017-06-11, 12:12 PM
why on earth would you think that a black robe is incapable of research that a white robe would be interested in? do they not need antidotes for toxins? stronger defense spells? good scrying devices? most wizards, including black robes, aren't interested in conquest or domination, they just want to further their understanding and control of magic.

Then why are they Black Robes? that sound like a Red Robe motivation to me. If the evil god isn't going to do anything and the evil mages aren't going to do anything, what is the point of their existence? They're just stupid and pointless and therefore should but cut out entirely.

While any White Robe worth their salt would figure out a way to get all that without needing an Evil person to help them. It would be harder yes, but Good isn't always easy. Thats the point of good: sticking to it despite the difficulty. That includes not making deals with devils like Black Robes.

dps
2017-06-11, 12:12 PM
The existence of Tasselhoff Burrfoot justifies the genocide of the Kender race four times over.

Fixed your post. :smalltongue:

As for the Dragonlance novels and setting, well, I never played a campaign in the setting, but I did read the novels. They were OK for what they were, which wasn't exactly juvenile fiction nor adult fantasy--they were essentially the novelization of a campaign, at least to start out.

I didn't have a problem with the concept of the test to chose which robe you wore, but IIRC, it wasn't that you chose which robe to wear; it was more that Magic tested you and picked for you. I don't think that was really made explicit, but it was the subtext as I recall (and if I'm wrong, well, it's been a long time since I read a Dragonlance novel, so I may be mis-remembering, or maybe I just misinterpreted things at the time).

I think the biggest problem with the novels in retrospect is that they sort of codified the Lawful Stupid interpretation of Paladins.

Keltest
2017-06-11, 12:19 PM
Then why are they Black Robes? that sound like a Red Robe motivation to me. If the evil god isn't going to do anything and the evil mages aren't going to do anything, what is the point of their existence? They're just stupid and pointless and therefore should but cut out entirely.

While any White Robe worth their salt would figure out a way to get all that without needing an Evil person to help them. It would be harder yes, but Good isn't always easy. Thats the point of good: sticking to it despite the difficulty. That includes not making deals with devils like Black Robes.

Black robes are selfish and seek knowledge for the sake of having power. White robes are altruistic and seek knowledge for helping others. Red robes are largely unmoved by either motivation, but seek knowledge for knowledge's sake. Power doesn't have to come in the form of slaughter or conquest. Honestly, you sound like everything you know about evil was learned from a Saturday morning cartoon.

Lord Raziere
2017-06-11, 12:29 PM
Black robes are selfish and seek knowledge for the sake of having power. White robes are altruistic and seek knowledge for helping others. Red robes are largely unmoved by either motivation, but seek knowledge for knowledge's sake. Power doesn't have to come in the form of slaughter or conquest. Honestly, you sound like everything you know about evil was learned from a Saturday morning cartoon.

And you talk as if DnD in all its alignment stupidity ISN'T a saturday morning cartoon but with actual death. Thats hilarious. :smallamused:

If I speak of cartoonish evil, its because the setting is cartoonish. The Wizards of this tower are cartoonishly naive, the good gods are cartoonishly stupid, the King Priest cartoonishly crazy, the evil cartoonishly card carrying, the kender cartoonishly annoying, the gully dwarves cartoonishly stupid, the Tinker Gnomes cartoonishly useless, the knights cartoonishly lawful stupid, the whole setting a big mass of stupidly written camp that doesn't make sense if you think about for two seconds much like a Silver Age comic.

If you want better evil, get rid of alignment and don't try to pretend any color-coded nonsense has any grounds for subtlety.

Max_Killjoy
2017-06-11, 01:10 PM
And you talk as if DnD in all its alignment stupidity ISN'T a saturday morning cartoon but with actual death. Thats hilarious. :smallamused:

If I speak of cartoonish evil, its because the setting is cartoonish. The Wizards of this tower are cartoonishly naive, the good gods are cartoonishly stupid, the King Priest cartoonishly crazy, the evil cartoonishly card carrying, the kender cartoonishly annoying, the gully dwarves cartoonishly stupid, the Tinker Gnomes cartoonishly useless, the knights cartoonishly lawful stupid, the whole setting a big mass of stupidly written camp that doesn't make sense if you think about for two seconds much like a Silver Age comic.

If you want better evil, get rid of alignment and don't try to pretend any color-coded nonsense has any grounds for subtlety.

I have to agree here -- color-coding takes the inanity of alignment and cranks it up to 11.

Nifft
2017-06-11, 01:15 PM
I have to agree here -- color-coding takes the inanity of alignment and cranks it up to 11.

5 out of 7 chromatic dragons agree.

Honest Tiefling
2017-06-11, 01:26 PM
1: what does this have to do with anything? this point seems pretty random

That was directed to me, and about Takhisis usually not wearing anything more then a bikini. But in my opinion, if you want to use the excuse that ancient cultures did it, they also had fruit and veg on full display as well as chunkier women with unibrows.There's also no mention of normal people going naked, so it can't be a cultural thing. If your character looks like fan service slapped onto a cheesy Heavy Metal album with few male counterparts, yeah, I'm calling it what it is: Fanservice for no logical reason.

Does anyone remember the Black Robes...Doing anything? The only Black Robes doing things I can think of was Dalamar and...People not in the main books.

I'd also like to mention my hatred for the Lord Toade character, who has the dumbest name and cartoonish proportions. Even Disney villians are more subtle then this!

Keltest
2017-06-11, 02:00 PM
That was directed to me, and about Takhisis usually not wearing anything more then a bikini. But in my opinion, if you want to use the excuse that ancient cultures did it, they also had fruit and veg on full display as well as chunkier women with unibrows.There's also no mention of normal people going naked, so it can't be a cultural thing. If your character looks like fan service slapped onto a cheesy Heavy Metal album with few male counterparts, yeah, I'm calling it what it is: Fanservice for no logical reason.

Does anyone remember the Black Robes...Doing anything? The only Black Robes doing things I can think of was Dalamar and...People not in the main books.

I'd also like to mention my hatred for the Lord Toade character, who has the dumbest name and cartoonish proportions. Even Disney villians are more subtle then this!

Any wizard that make waves will tend to be branded a renegade because the Order is specifically designed to prevent that. A former black robe did help engineer draconians, and some of them worked with Takhisis' armies before they figured out that she is a lying liar who lies and doesn't like them.

JadedDM
2017-06-11, 05:10 PM
There's a lot to cover here, so I'll just speak up on the stuff that caught my eye.

Margaret Weis isn't a Mormon. Tracey Hickman and his wife, Laura are, but Weis is not. I'm not sure what she is...(I want to say Lutheran, but I'm not sure). This isn't really important, I just wanted to clear that up.

Second, keep in mind Dragonlance was made back in the 80s. This was back in the days of 1E, when alignment was very black and white (back when people actually spoke an alignment language; i.e., a Lawful Good person could speak the Lawful Good language, and only other Lawful Good people could understand it). In other words, alignment was simple and decidedly not subtle. Just like most D&D games were back then. That doesn't excuse it, but it does explain why things seem so weird by modern sensibilities. It's basically values dissonance.

Oh, and for the Wizards of High Sorcery, Black Robed Mages may be evil, but they must still follow the rules. The members of the three Orders are united in their love of magic, and the magic is far more important to them than anything else. Thus, Black Robes do not go out into towns and start fireballing people or experimenting on innocents, etc. If they did, it would give magic a bad name, which would cause all mages to suffer. The magic trumps alignment.

Not everyone who refuses to join becomes a renegade to be hunted down, either. Dabblers are fine (those who never exceed 2nd level spells). Likewise, a mage who did nothing to harm the cause of magic likely would never wind up on the Conclave's radar. The story about the party that hunted down a renegade who was doing nothing wrong strikes me as odd. How did that person even get noticed by the Conclave? Did he go around yelling, "I'm a renegade, woo!" Or was he doing something that was harmful to the cause of magic? Because if all he did was quietly live his life, using his magic to help others, the Conclave likely would have just left him alone.

Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of weird and kind of dumb stuff in Dragonlance. The whole 'too much Good is bad' thing never made any sense to me at all, for instance. But I think a lot of people are attacking the setting with broad strokes, and not realizing there's more nuance there than people give it credit for.

goto124
2017-06-12, 01:36 AM
So would a Kender be a Black Robe, White Robe, or Red Robe?

TripleD
2017-06-12, 01:40 AM
And you talk as if DnD in all its alignment stupidity ISN'T a saturday morning cartoon but with actual death. Thats hilarious. :smallamused:

If I speak of cartoonish evil, its because the setting is cartoonish. The Wizards of this tower are cartoonishly naive, the good gods are cartoonishly stupid, the King Priest cartoonishly crazy, the evil cartoonishly card carrying, the kender cartoonishly annoying, the gully dwarves cartoonishly stupid, the Tinker Gnomes cartoonishly useless, the knights cartoonishly lawful stupid, the whole setting a big mass of stupidly written camp that doesn't make sense if you think about for two seconds much like a Silver Age comic.

If you want better evil, get rid of alignment and don't try to pretend any color-coded nonsense has any grounds for subtlety.

What I find kind of funny is that the actual DnD cartoon deliberately tried to avoid "cartoonish evil" (there's a behind the scenes feature where one of the writers talked about being inspired by "Japanese cartoons" and wanted to create antagonists with more nuanced motivation) despite existing at the same time as Dragonlance.

Keltest
2017-06-12, 07:23 AM
So would a Kender be a Black Robe, White Robe, or Red Robe?

Red, because any self respecting wizard would stab the kender that learned magic for the greater good of all wizards.

Cluedrew
2017-06-12, 07:48 AM
That just made me realize Elan is actually kender like. He is missing the kleptomania and the complete lack of fear (the former might definitely make a difference) but the child like nature is defiantly there. He also does some "oops" things over the story.

gkathellar
2017-06-12, 09:06 AM
Conceptually, they're repulsive because they attempt to solve the issues with a race of thieves by making a race of Not Thieves - that is to say, thieves, but with the ethical issues of thievery removed essentially by equal parts mental disability ("they do it by accident, they don't understand") and fiat ("it's in their nature, but like not in a way with unfortunate implications or anything").

In practice, they're repulsive because they're the Purity Sue version of the AD&D thief: impossibly skilled, morally faultless, and always forgiven for their shenanigans regardless of how unlikely that is. They are obnoxious as literary characters and toxic at the table.


That just made me realize Elan is actually kender like. He is missing the kleptomania and the complete lack of fear (the former might definitely make a difference) but the child like nature is defiantly there. He also does some "oops" things over the story.

Critically, though, this is seen in-story as a character flaw, not an endearing plus, which makes it a lot more tolerable.

LibraryOgre
2017-06-12, 11:29 AM
No one flanderizes kender quite like people who don't like kender. To be fair, though, the second worst are probably the authors of Dragonlance books.

Tasslehoff's "oops" moments are seen as an annoying character flaw... many, many, many times. His friends will even assign members of their group to keep an eye on him, because they know about his character flaws, and account for them. But he's also shown to be very loyal, clever, kind, and usefully fearless (not simply "I ignore danger", but "I ignore danger to help my friends, and am generally successful at doing so."). His fearlessness helped to galvanize the White Stone Council by doing something that no one else would consider... smashing a dragon orb. His curiosity gets them out of trouble as often as it gets them in trouble (q.v. the High Clerist's Tower, where his unwillingness to listen to the command of "don't explore" lead to the discovery of the Dragon Orb and the killing rooms).

And, of course, we know that not all kender are like this. Aside from simple "They can't all be like this, because places like Kendermore exist and don't starve to death", we have characters like Loraine, the mother of Tarli Half-Kender, who passed as human enough that a Knight of Solamnia didn't suspect she was kender, just small. Kronin Thistleknot organized and led a successful resistance against the Black Dragon army.

Kender tend to get pigeonholed as this incredibly chaotic race, but it's often ignored that they are also good, and that's in a world where the Big Thing is the conflict between Good and Evil. Good, in D&D, is a quantifiable and detectable thing. And kender are that. While they can be annoying, and many players use them as an excuse to be obnoxious, they can be used well.

GungHo
2017-06-12, 11:42 AM
I will never understand how people can hate something so much and continue to read it in such detail.

What would you have expected us to compare it to at the time? It was basically a YA series. Would you give your kids Elric of Melnibone?

halfeye
2017-06-12, 12:08 PM
What would you have expected us to compare it to at the time? It was basically a YA series. Would you give your kids Elric of Melnibone?
I first read an Elric story at about the age of thirteen I think. Young Adult stories are generally not very good, Potter on the other hand is horrific, in a good way. I don't think that the Elric stories are worse than Potter.

LibraryOgre
2017-06-12, 12:44 PM
I first read an Elric story at about the age of thirteen I think. Young Adult stories are generally not very good, Potter on the other hand is horrific, in a good way. I don't think that the Elric stories are worse than Potter.

If they were coming out today, the Valdemar books by Mercedes Lackey would be classed YA. I even jokingly call Arrows of the Queen "Pony Fiction (http://www.theonion.com/article/sixth-grader-begins-work-on-pony-trilogy-4204)", based on an old Onion article. Then, in book 2, she goes into a psychic sex haze with her mentor as her control of her mental powers deteriorates, then the third book, there's bunch of rape and torture.

But the first book? Totally reads like Pony Fiction.

Nifft
2017-06-12, 12:51 PM
If they were coming out today, the Valdemar books by Mercedes Lackey would be classed YA. I even jokingly call Arrows of the Queen "Pony Fiction (http://www.theonion.com/article/sixth-grader-begins-work-on-pony-trilogy-4204)", based on an old Onion article. Then, in book 2, she goes into a psychic sex haze with her mentor as her control of her mental powers deteriorates, then the third book, there's bunch of rape and torture.

Sounds like a better love story than Twilight.

Not sure what it has to do with Kender, though.

LibraryOgre
2017-06-12, 01:04 PM
Sounds like a better love story than Twilight.

Not sure what it has to do with Kender, though.

Topic drift; the discussion included dismissing Chronicles as being YA.

JadedDM
2017-06-12, 03:52 PM
So would a Kender be a Black Robe, White Robe, or Red Robe?
None of the above. Kender lack the patience to spend years studying old, dusty tomes to learn magic. They love magic, just don't want to be bothered to learn any.

Max_Killjoy
2017-06-12, 04:00 PM
None of the above. Kender lack the patience to spend years studying old, dusty tomes to learn magic. They love magic, just don't want to be bothered to learn any.

So... "sorcerer" or "warlock"? ( :smallwink: )

Lord Raziere
2017-06-12, 04:03 PM
So... "sorcerer" or "warlock"? ( :smallwink: )

Depends, are supernatural beings foolish enough to make a contract with a Kender, or lay with a Kender? Somehow, I don't know which is worse.

LibraryOgre
2017-06-12, 05:14 PM
None of the above. Kender lack the patience to spend years studying old, dusty tomes to learn magic. They love magic, just don't want to be bothered to learn any.

In AD&D, sure, but once you move into WD&D, it's not as cut and dried. I'd figure most of them would be White Robes, much like most elves are White Robes... a generally good race is going to produce a higher percentage of White robes than the other two, just like most kender priests are going to be Good.

Honest Tiefling
2017-06-12, 05:19 PM
In AD&D, sure, but once you move into WD&D, it's not as cut and dried. I'd figure most of them would be White Robes, much like most elves are White Robes... a generally good race is going to produce a higher percentage of White robes than the other two, just like most kender priests are going to be Good.

I think a race with such severe memory issues that they cannot recall stealing a bunch of objects on a near daily issue shouldn't be described as good...They're pretty delusional as a race. And they have such poor impulse control they make toddlers look mature.

Unless you want to go for the whole 'Evil will always triumph because good people apparently have massively debilitating mental disorders'.

Dragonexx
2017-06-12, 05:27 PM
No one flanderizes kender quite like people who don't like kender. To be fair, though, the second worst are probably the authors of Dragonlance books.

Tasslehoff's "oops" moments are seen as an annoying character flaw... many, many, many times. His friends will even assign members of their group to keep an eye on him, because they know about his character flaws, and account for them. But he's also shown to be very loyal, clever, kind, and usefully fearless (not simply "I ignore danger", but "I ignore danger to help my friends, and am generally successful at doing so."). His fearlessness helped to galvanize the White Stone Council by doing something that no one else would consider... smashing a dragon orb. His curiosity gets them out of trouble as often as it gets them in trouble (q.v. the High Clerist's Tower, where his unwillingness to listen to the command of "don't explore" lead to the discovery of the Dragon Orb and the killing rooms).

And, of course, we know that not all kender are like this. Aside from simple "They can't all be like this, because places like Kendermore exist and don't starve to death", we have characters like Loraine, the mother of Tarli Half-Kender, who passed as human enough that a Knight of Solamnia didn't suspect she was kender, just small. Kronin Thistleknot organized and led a successful resistance against the Black Dragon army.

Kender tend to get pigeonholed as this incredibly chaotic race, but it's often ignored that they are also good, and that's in a world where the Big Thing is the conflict between Good and Evil. Good, in D&D, is a quantifiable and detectable thing. And kender are that. While they can be annoying, and many players use them as an excuse to be obnoxious, they can be used well.

I will add to this, in that in the books, the traits people tend to associate with kender aren't as universal as one might think. Take Nightshade Pricklypear (http://dragonlancenexus.com/lexicon/index.php?title=Nightshade_Pricklypear), who isn't good at stealing things, and is actually kinda cowardly at times. He can commune with the dead, and helps many of them come to terms with their deaths. He's naive and kinda silly like most kender, though in different ways.

Keltest
2017-06-12, 05:44 PM
I think a race with such severe memory issues that they cannot recall stealing a bunch of objects on a near daily issue shouldn't be described as good...They're pretty delusional as a race. And they have such poor impulse control they make toddlers look mature.

Unless you want to go for the whole 'Evil will always triumph because good people apparently have massively debilitating mental disorders'.

Its not that they have memory issues, its more like they have massive ADD and a desire to examine things hands on. A kender will pick up something cool, fully intending to put it back, and then see something else cool and pocket the item out of reflex in order to free up their hands. If they actually pay attention to something (like, say, a lock) then they can remember it perfectly well.

Talakeal
2017-06-12, 06:30 PM
Wow, who knew a debate about Kender would be so polarizing. I am really having to tiptoe around here to avoid breaching forum rules with real world examples.

Personally, Dragonlance is my overall favorite fantasy series, so I am probably a bit biased, and I do agree that it has its flaws.


About Gods and Clothes:
Yeah, I am sure it is fan service, but the way you phrased it made it seem more like an attack on the character rather than the authors / artists. Still, I don't think that fan service / admiration or idealization of the human form is a bad thing, it has been a motif in art, especially religious art, at least since the days of the ancient Greeks.
I also see it as a bit of a double standard, but maybe I am a little overly sensitive to the issue and am probably reading a lot more into it than you meant. To relate an anecdote about why that might be, in my campaign world the nature deities don't wear clothes. When the PCs met the Horned King, god of the land, they didn't even mention his nudity. When they met one of his daughters they literally slut shamed her, as in called her a slut and chastised her for her nudity and (perceived) promiscuity. She reacted like they were rude children and midly chastised them, which caused them to swear an oath against her and went around burning her temples to the ground, which eventually led to a TPK and the group breaking up when one of the party members refused to help in the resultant slaughter. So yeah, bad experiances.

About Kender:
I really don't think that the fact that I child won't ever group up, or even if they are an adult with the mind of a child, excuses violence against them. Also, Tasslehoff does change over time. In Legends he even talks about how after seeing so many friends die he has started to see the world in a different light and can no longer relate to his own people as they never take anything seriously, and when you see him around other Kender he is definitely acting more like a parent (or at least a cool babysitter) rather than a child. One of my friends (who is indeed one of the problem Kender players we all know) doesn't like the later books in the series because Tasslehoof doesn't act like himself anymore.

About Morality:
In my opinion someone who does the wrong thing for the right reason is still a good person, they are just misguided. If you look at the alignment descriptions in the PHB I believe RAW backs me up on this, but it is open for debate. Hard to use analogies without bringing up RL religion or politics, so I will try and use a (not especially great) fantasy example:

Who is more evil here:
A bandit who unknowingly attacks and kills an evil assassin who was disuised as an innocent old man for the sole purpose of robbing him?
Or the king's loyal guard who has to make a split second decision and kills an innocent old man because he mistook him for an evil assassin who was threatening his liege?

In my opinion it is the former, and I think this is the logic the authors of DL were going with, but if you are using a consequentialist view of philosophy you may disagree.

I imagine if you took a poll of the forum a large portion of the user base would agree with the king priest that genocide is ok as long as it is directed towards an evil race (that argument sure seems to crop up in our monthly alignment wank thread), so it is hardly a fringe idea even if I don't agree with it.

Which is not to say that the whole Cataclysm and balance of good and evil thing makes perfect sense to me, but gods are weird. Again, trying to avoid RL religions and sticking to fantasy examples, you have the Wall of the Faithless on the Forgotten Realms, Athena cursing people for BEING raped in her temple, and even in our own OoTS you have the gods repeatedly ignoring Miko's prayers for guidance but then all twelve of them showing up to strip her of her powers the instant she acts on her own (poor) judgment.


So yeah, that is all just my opinion. Feel free to disagree, but we should probably let the issue rest as it is just going to lead to thread derailment, arguing, or RL analogies that will get the thread locked.

Agrippa
2017-06-12, 06:32 PM
Depends, are supernatural beings foolish enough to make a contract with a Kender, or lay with a Kender? Somehow, I don't know which is worse.

"You get to be a superhero by believing in the hero within you and summoning him or her forth by an act of will. Alternately, you could do as Jon did: Fall into a nuclear reactor and hope for the best." - Adrian Veidt/Ozymandias

I'd say that falling into the fantasy equivalent of a nuclear reactor and hoping for the best is an acceptable backstory for a D&D sorcerer.

Honest Tiefling
2017-06-12, 06:38 PM
Yeah, I am sure it is fan service, but the way you phrased it made it seem more like an attack on the character rather than the authors / artists. Still, I don't think that fan service / admiration or idealization of the human form is a bad thing, it has been a motif in art, especially religious art, at least since the days of the ancient Greeks.
I also see it as a bit of a double standard...

Again, when you have an absence of a culture (and nature deities would have their own culture) where nudity is accepted and a lack of nude, attractive dudes, I'm just going to say that the only reason Takhisis looks that way is DEM TITTIES. Early DnD was really bad for rendering female (and only female) characters characters as fan service, which this is related to. You can give as many reasons for nude gods in your own setting, but sometimes fan service is just obviously fan service.

As for Kender sorcerers, I do wonder how they'd even get the discipline to master that. You'd think plenty of them would explode due to their own impulsiveness.

Lord Raziere
2017-06-12, 06:50 PM
As for Kender sorcerers, I do wonder how they'd even get the discipline to master that. You'd think plenty of them would explode due to their own impulsiveness.

Which is why you don't see any: they all blew up. Thats why there are no Kender spellcasters.

And guess what about old myths Talakeal: they're screwed up. some things are just stupid, and stupid is stupid. There is no need to defend it just because its precedent, its just stupid. there is no need to defend anything that seems weird to your point of view but just is popular for no reason, if its stupid, criticize it. thats all that matters. Anthena punishing people for being raped in temple? its just stupid. like many things. like Dragonlance.

CrackedChair
2017-06-12, 06:56 PM
Isn't Takhisis supposed to be Tiamat? I mean, something on one of those 5th edition books I read might have referred to her as Tiamat herself...

Honest Tiefling
2017-06-12, 06:59 PM
Isn't Takhisis supposed to be Tiamat? I mean, something on one of those 5th edition books I read might have referred to her as Tiamat herself...

She's based on Tiamat (the DnD version, not the real world one) and got conflated with her in 4th edition as far as I know. 5th didn't undo much of 4th, so she's still probably Tiamat.

Talakeal
2017-06-12, 07:00 PM
Isn't Takhisis supposed to be Tiamat? I mean, something on one of those 5th edition books I read might have referred to her as Tiamat herself...

She is the DL version of Tiamat. Whether or not they are distinct beings really depends on which edition and which campaign setting you are using. IIRC several of the DL gods were originally versions of generic D&D gods, like Paladine is Bahamut and Chemosh is Orcus.

FreddyNoNose
2017-06-12, 07:04 PM
The way they are presented, kender strongly encourage player to troll the rest of the group by being annoying and disruptive. Things that are commonly regarded as unacceptible during play are presented as the proper way to play kenders.

And sometimes to the groups benefit! Sometimes...

lunaticfringe
2017-06-12, 07:12 PM
Isn't Takhisis supposed to be Tiamat? I mean, something on one of those 5th edition books I read might have referred to her as Tiamat herself...

I'm sure some Dragonlance die hards will argue for this but Takhisis is dead.

Arbane
2017-06-12, 08:03 PM
"D&D alignment system shown to be nonsensical, Film at 11."

As for the main topic, I'll just say that I've often thought that if I had to play in a game with Kender, I'd play a NE Druid who worships Natural Selection.

Dragonexx
2017-06-12, 08:04 PM
Depends, are supernatural beings foolish enough to make a contract with a Kender, or lay with a Kender? Somehow, I don't know which is worse.

Sorcery in Dragonlance isn't based on supernatural heritage, but on being "attuned to the world" or something to do with Chaos.

leoryff
2017-06-12, 08:17 PM
Wow, who knew a debate about Kender would be so polarizing. I am really having to tiptoe around here to avoid breaching forum rules with rule world examples.

Personally, Dragonlance is my overall favorite fantasy series, so I am probably a bit biased, and I do agree that it has its flaws.

.......


So yeah, that is all just my opinion. Feel free to disagree, but we should probably let the issue rest as it is just going to lead to thread derailment, arguing, or RL analogies that will get the thread locked.


Basically this.

Lord Torath
2017-06-13, 07:27 AM
Kender could be clerics. At least in 1e/2e AD&D.

Psyren
2017-06-13, 08:43 AM
About Kender:
I really don't think that the fact that I child won't ever group up, or even if they are an adult with the mind of a child, excuses violence against them. Also, Tasslehoff does change over time. In Legends he even talks about how after seeing so many friends die he has started to see the world in a different light and can no longer relate to his own people as they never take anything seriously, and when you see him around other Kender he is definitely acting more like a parent (or at least a cool babysitter) rather than a child. One of my friends (who is indeed one of the problem Kender players we all know) doesn't like the later books in the series because Tasslehoof doesn't act like himself anymore.


But this in itself is quite telling - it shows that on a subconscious level, even the setting's own authors/creators realized that a typical kender mindset is incompatible with adventuring. Thus, their iconic Kender ends up being the least Kender-like Kender of them all.

And that's totally fine - adventurers are meant to be the extraordinary, or at least eccentric, minority of their peoples (how many people would walk up to you on the street and declare "I'm an adventurer!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0206.html) after all?) The problem is that the mechanical DL books do nothing to steer you away from being that annoying and downright detrimental kind of Kender. And gods help you if you haven't read all the way to the later Dragonlance novels where Tasslehoff matures a little.

Thus the backlash against Kender is not only justified conceptually, but tends to surface in actual play.

nweismuller
2017-06-13, 09:35 AM
Aside from simple "They can't all be like this, because places like Kendermore exist and don't starve to death"

My conclusion, after reading the novels, was more surprise that Kendermore didn't starve to death. Kender as presented would make terrible farmers and wouldn't be good at attracting traders for food imports. They'd do all right as 'gypsies' dependent on settled communities of other races, although most settled communities of other races would likely dread such a thing and may well take steps to bar them. They might also work decently well as hunter-gatherers, but I'm pretty sure that they weren't conceptualised as hunter-gatherer tribes (unlike gully dwarves).

Edit: I guess maybe if we assume that the economy of Kendermore is dependent on herding? They just might make efficient enough herdsmen not to starve, which would imply interesting things about the traditional kender diet (much heavier on meat and cheese than one might expect, almost entirely lacking in bread and vegetables).

GungHo
2017-06-13, 09:40 AM
Topic drift; the discussion included dismissing Chronicles as being YA.

I wasn't really dismissing it. I was explaining it. The guy was asking "why would you guys have read Chronicles so much/so closely if you hated it". We had no idea it was "bad" because we didn't have a lot of a base on which to say "this is schlock" because we were all young when we first read it and it was an entry point into fantasy literature. At >40 years old, yes you look at things a lot differently and you can be savage critically, but to transfer that onto an 8 year old is a big ask, because all that stuff was cool when we were 8.

Keltest
2017-06-13, 09:57 AM
My conclusion, after reading the novels, was more surprise that Kendermore didn't starve to death. Kender as presented would make terrible farmers and wouldn't be good at attracting traders for food imports. They'd do all right as 'gypsies' dependent on settled communities of other races, although most settled communities of other races would likely dread such a thing and may well take steps to bar them. They might also work decently well as hunter-gatherers, but I'm pretty sure that they weren't conceptualised as hunter-gatherer tribes (unlike gully dwarves).

Edit: I guess maybe if we assume that the economy of Kendermore is dependent on herding? They just might make efficient enough herdsmen not to starve, which would imply interesting things about the traditional kender diet (much heavier on meat and cheese than one might expect, almost entirely lacking in bread and vegetables).

A couple books take a look at Kendermore. There are some farms (the owners take them comically seriously, and don't really understand why nobody else does) but not a lot, a lot of fruit trees (apples are called out in particular), and herding.

Also, Kendermore just doesn't have a huge population. The town is geographically a lot larger than the population demands because the kender like building things (or more accurately, like starting buildings) and they just put them wherever they feel like it. Wanderlust tends to ensure that the majority of the world's kender population is anywhere but Kendermore.

Psyren
2017-06-13, 01:15 PM
Also, aren't Kender literally walking Sues who get special attention from Bahamut Paladine? He keeps their homeland afloat with generous plot subsidies.

CharonsHelper
2017-06-13, 01:41 PM
The same way all Dwarves are now dour and taciturn - because that's how Flint's player played him.

Gimli sort of leaned that way too, especially before Lothlorien mellowed him out.

Dappershire
2017-06-13, 01:43 PM
So would a Kender be a Black Robe, White Robe, or Red Robe?


I don't think there was ever a robed Kender. Something about their life force being incompatible with a lot of spell types. Time, especially, but that was only the most written about. Kender weren't the only ones either.



But this in itself is quite telling - it shows that on a subconscious level, even the setting's own authors/creators realized that a typical kender mindset is incompatible with adventuring. Thus, their iconic Kender ends up being the least Kender-like Kender of them all.


Thus the backlash against Kender is not only justified conceptually, but tends to surface in actual play.


Not really. All they show is that Kender characters are capable of growth. Sometimes dramatically so, as there is an entire community that lost their fearlessness, after a Dragon murdered 3/4s the population.

Thrudd
2017-06-13, 02:14 PM
Gimli sort of leaned that way too, especially before Lothlorien mellowed him out.

Right. Not really a strong recommendation for the world-building that went into Dragonlance.

I loved those books as a kid, I read them probably between the ages of 10 and 14. When I tried to reread them around 30 (going on a binge of rereading every book I owned and every fantasy and sci-fi in the local library), I couldn't even get though the first one. I can re-read Lord of the Rings and all of Tolkien's stuff. I'll reread Howard's Conan stories, Dying Earth, and Game of Thrones. But for some reason stuff like DL, FR, Shannara, Iron Tower, I just couldn't bring myself to get into it anymore.

CharonsHelper
2017-06-13, 02:39 PM
But for some reason stuff like DL, FR, Shannara, Iron Tower, I just couldn't bring myself to get into it anymore.

Some Drizzt stuff is okay if you go into it like a popcorn action flick - though I agree that I enjoyed it a lot more in high school. It can be fun if you don't take it at all seriously. (I will say - for all his failings - RA Salvatore is the king at making over-the-top ridiculous fight scenes seem cool and reasonable while you're actually reading them.)

I couldn't even enjoy Shannara in high school though - maybe because I'd already read Tolkein and I saw it for the pale shadow that it is. But I did read the first three - because they were on my English class's reading list my junior year. (My teacher hadn't read them since he was a kid - and at my scathing review he started them and pretty much agreed with me.)

JadedDM
2017-06-13, 04:25 PM
Also, aren't Kender literally walking Sues who get special attention from Bahamut Paladine? He keeps their homeland afloat with generous plot subsidies.
Were that the case, wouldn't they have been wiped out now that Paladine is no longer a god?

FreddyNoNose
2017-06-13, 05:40 PM
Gimli sort of leaned that way too, especially before Lothlorien mellowed him out.

Back in the days of Snow White they were pimps who sang hello to their ho.

Psyren
2017-06-13, 06:01 PM
Not really. All they show is that Kender characters are capable of growth. Sometimes dramatically so, as there is an entire community that lost their fearlessness, after a Dragon murdered 3/4s the population.

Right, and such growth is catalyzed by the horrors posed by adventuring (or rampaging monsters.) Which is totally fine. The problem is that the kender PCs the gaming books encourage you to roll are the preternaturally annoying, happy-go-lucky kind, not the mature kind that are capable of recognizing true danger when their companions do.


Were that the case, wouldn't they have been wiped out now that Paladine is no longer a god?

Nah, I'm fairly certain he left his Sue race a perpetual insurance policy before stepping down.

CharonsHelper
2017-06-13, 06:14 PM
Back in the days of Snow White they were pimps who sang hello to their ho.

Well - some of them were still pretty Grumpy. :smallbiggrin:

CrackedChair
2017-06-13, 06:22 PM
Well - some of them were still pretty Grumpy. :smallbiggrin:

And others Stabby.

That last one might be a bit too short for a Dwarf. Though.

FreddyNoNose
2017-06-13, 06:43 PM
Well - some of them were still pretty Grumpy. :smallbiggrin:

LOL well played

Keltest
2017-06-13, 07:56 PM
Right, and such growth is catalyzed by the horrors posed by adventuring (or rampaging monsters.) Which is totally fine. The problem is that the kender PCs the gaming books encourage you to roll are the preternaturally annoying, happy-go-lucky kind, not the mature kind that are capable of recognizing true danger when their companions do.

I'm almost positive that one of the rulebooks includes information on how to play an afflicted Kender, which is strictly a roleplaying difference.

Shadow_in_the_Mist
2017-06-13, 08:27 PM
I'm almost positive that one of the rulebooks includes information on how to play an afflicted Kender, which is strictly a roleplaying difference.

Races of Ansalon (D&D 3.5) had stats for Afflicted Kender and Half-Kender alongside True Kender, who had been the only playable Kender form in previous depictions in Dragon #101, Dragonlance Adventures, and The Complete Book of Gnomes & Halflings, although I think maybe Afflicted Kender appeared in that last one too? Need to double check... nope, I was wrong, Afflicted Kender didn't exist prior to 3e.

Talakeal
2017-06-13, 08:30 PM
Races of Ansalon (D&D 3.5) had stats for Afflicted Kender and Half-Kender alongside True Kender, who had been the only playable Kender form in previous depictions in Dragon #101, Dragonlance Adventures, and The Complete Book of Gnomes & Halflings, although I think maybe Afflicted Kender appeared in that last one too? Need to double check... nope, I was wrong, Afflicted Kender didn't exist prior to 3e.

Iirc afflicted wrre introduced in SAGA which predated 3e by several years.

dps
2017-06-13, 08:50 PM
Some Drizzt stuff is okay if you go into it like a popcorn action flick - though I agree that I enjoyed it a lot more in high school. It can be fun if you don't take it at all seriously. (I will say - for all his failings - RA Salvatore is the king at making over-the-top ridiculous fight scenes seem cool and reasonable while you're actually reading them.)

I couldn't even enjoy Shannara in high school though - maybe because I'd already read Tolkein and I saw it for the pale shadow that it is. But I did read the first three - because they were on my English class's reading list my junior year. (My teacher hadn't read them since he was a kid - and at my scathing review he started them and pretty much agreed with me.)

I read the Dragonlance stuff right as I was finishing college, at a later age apparently than most others here. But even then, they were just light reading for me compared to some of the other stuff I was reading at the time. I guess I mostly read them because I have a younger brother who was reading them. I did like the better than the Drizzt stuff or the Shannara books--I read 1 book in each of those series and was never interested in reading more of them. But then again, I don't think I read any of the Dragonlance books past the Chronicles trilogy, either.

lightningcat
2017-06-14, 12:02 AM
Kenders were good for at least one thing. 3e and later halflings are basically kender with the worst burrs filed off instead of just being hobbits with the serial numbers filed off.
After all, the Complete Book of Gnomes and Halflings actually has sections on "Why most halflings are homebodies" and "Why some halflings pursue adventure". Although this sectional also mentions what was taken to 11 in the kender wanderlust, and it fading as they grow older.

Psyren
2017-06-14, 12:21 AM
I'm almost positive that one of the rulebooks includes information on how to play an afflicted Kender, which is strictly a roleplaying difference.


Races of Ansalon (D&D 3.5) had stats for Afflicted Kender and Half-Kender alongside True Kender, who had been the only playable Kender form in previous depictions in Dragon #101, Dragonlance Adventures, and The Complete Book of Gnomes & Halflings, although I think maybe Afflicted Kender appeared in that last one too? Need to double check... nope, I was wrong, Afflicted Kender didn't exist prior to 3e.

More like Fixed Kender amirite

Lord Raziere
2017-06-14, 12:35 AM
More like Fixed Kender amirite

When your fantasy race needs collective psychological trauma to become bearable to interact and play as, I think thats a good case for revising the race altogether to be something more reasonable. Because if Tasslehoff is so relatively reasonable compared to other Kender, if his entire thing is taking off the race's hat and thats what makes him good, just discard the hat. There would be little to no change. You could make Tasslehoff's learning fear to be a personal journey rather than just him becoming something more than just another Kender, and it would probably be better for it.

goto124
2017-06-14, 08:32 AM
I think I got it...

Kenders would just steal the robe!

LibraryOgre
2017-06-14, 09:14 AM
Iirc afflicted wrre introduced in SAGA which predated 3e by several years.

You are correct. There's also the Kendar, of Chorane, and the Marak Kender of Taladas. Much like the "mad gnomes", who got a bit more screen time, they were variations on the standard kender, usually associated with either an environmental change (the Kendar) or a cataclysm (Marak Kender, Afflicted Kender).

FreddyNoNose
2017-06-14, 02:24 PM
And others Stabby.

That last one might be a bit too short for a Dwarf. Though.

Might that be stumpy? The Dwarf who lost his legs in an Elf Tossing Contest?

FreddyNoNose
2017-06-14, 02:30 PM
I think I got it...

Kenders would just steal the robe!

No not steal. Try it on to see how it would look in the mirror and then got distracted. Later they figured to put the robe in a backpack for safekeeping.

FreddyNoNose
2017-06-14, 02:31 PM
When your fantasy race needs collective psychological trauma to become bearable to interact and play as, I think thats a good case for revising the race altogether to be something more reasonable. Because if Tasslehoff is so relatively reasonable compared to other Kender, if his entire thing is taking off the race's hat and thats what makes him good, just discard the hat. There would be little to no change. You could make Tasslehoff's learning fear to be a personal journey rather than just him becoming something more than just another Kender, and it would probably be better for it.

This reeks of some kind of Kender Genocide!

Max_Killjoy
2017-06-14, 02:46 PM
This reeks of some kind of Kender Genocide!

Kendercide?

Kendocide?

FreddyNoNose
2017-06-14, 02:57 PM
Kendercide?

Kendocide?

You see it too! People being unfair to Kender!!!!!

Just say no to Kendercide!

Keep Calm and no Kendercide!

CrackedChair
2017-06-14, 03:45 PM
Jeezy creezy, everybody hates Kender, don't they?

I mean, they are annoying as hell, which would have at least gave them a clue that they are really not appreciated for their acting, but still...

Lord Raziere
2017-06-14, 04:36 PM
You see it too! People being unfair to Kender!!!!!

Just say no to Kendercide!

Keep Calm and no Kendercide!

Wow, you think this is genocide? kender aren't real dude, stop overreacting. and no we're not being unfair to them, if the way you have to mentally correct an entire species in canon is "give them all fear-based psychological damage" thats bad writing and shouldn't be there in the first place, you should write the species so that they're a good species in the first place, so that y'know, you don't annoy the entire group just for playing a character, if your annoying an entire group for "just playing a character" thats bad design, because either the person is being honest and that kind of roleplaying is inherently annoying or the person is being dishonest and knows they can use that as an excuse to abuse the roleplaying for their own kicks and giggles. Either possibility is not good.

Thrudd
2017-06-14, 04:41 PM
Jeezy creezy, everybody hates Kender, don't they?

I mean, they are annoying as hell, which would have at least gave them a clue that they are really not appreciated for their acting, but still...

Just read the books and decide for yourself. You shouldn't take anyone's opinion about this stuff as a fact. You might really like "Dragonlance Chronicles", a lot of people did. Then you can decide if others' judgements about kender are fair or accurate to the fiction.

FreddyNoNose
2017-06-14, 04:47 PM
Wow, you think this is genocide? kender aren't real dude, stop overreacting..

It is called humor.

Psyren
2017-06-14, 05:18 PM
Wow, you think this is genocide? kender aren't real dude, stop overreacting. and no we're not being unfair to them, if the way you have to mentally correct an entire species in canon is "give them all fear-based psychological damage" thats bad writing and shouldn't be there in the first place, you should write the species so that they're a good species in the first place, so that y'know, you don't annoy the entire group just for playing a character, if your annoying an entire group for "just playing a character" thats bad design, because either the person is being honest and that kind of roleplaying is inherently annoying or the person is being dishonest and knows they can use that as an excuse to abuse the roleplaying for their own kicks and giggles. Either possibility is not good.

I think he was being tongue-in-cheek.

I agree with you that Kender are poorly designed though. (Not necessarily poorly written - they do exactly what they're meant to do from a story aspect - it's just the whole "game"/"PC" part where they fall flat.)

FabulousFizban
2017-06-17, 02:03 AM
Nothing! Its nothing. Forget you heard the word.