leveling up in wild shape

[Baby Gary]

when you level up as a druid you gain 1d8+CON mod hit points, but what if I am in a high CON wild shape, like a bear or something like that has a high CON and I level up. The PHB says
Roll a Hit Die, add your characters Constitution modifier, and add the total roll to his or her hit pointsSo if I level up as a bear do I get extra HP?
this is in 3.5 btw

[eggynack]

Not really, on two levels. First, alternate form has you retain your original HP, and your original HP is determined by the statistics of your base form. Second, even if you did get more HP from the better con mod, it's not like reverting to your original form has some HP retaining property. When you switch back, your HP would be determined by your HD and con mod, because that's how HP rolls. It's not an especially "sticky" statistic, y'know? If we were talking something like feats or even skill points here, that'd be a bit more interesting, because the former is really static and I think the latter is based on int on level up as opposed to current int.

[John Longarrow]

This definitely falls into "Ask your DM first". Some run it where you POOF level!. Some run it where you take a week off to train up or something like that. Some have other mechanisms that would interfere with using an alternate form.

[eggynack]

This definitely falls into "Ask your DM first". Some run it where you POOF level!. Some run it where you take a week off to train up or something like that. Some have other mechanisms that would interfere with using an alternate form.
Due to the specific stat being boosted here, I don't think it's all that ambiguous. Absolute best case scenario, you get some extra HP until you next wild shape. More likely, you get nothing. HP in a wild shape has nothing to do with the statistics of the creature you're becoming.

[stanprollyright]

No. You retain your HP based on your base form even while wildshaped. When you level up it's YOUR (permanent) con mod, not your current form's.

[VisitingDaGulag]

FAQ says no so your DM will have a leg to stand on when he says no. But logically...

[Baby Gary]

I think some clarification is needed. I know that when I use wild shape I don't recalculate HP, but what if when I level up while I am wild shaped into an elephant, which has 21 CON, would I add the 5 from the elephants 21 CON to my NEW HP when I level up, or would I add the 2 from my characters 14 CON.

[stanprollyright]

I think some clarification is needed. I know that when I use wild shape I don't recalculate HP, but what if when I level up I am wild shaped into an elephant, which has 21 CON, would I add the 5 from the elephants 21 CON to my NEW HP when I level up, or would I add the 2 from my characters 14 CON.

2. The elephant's con modifier does not affect your HP.

[bekeleven]

I think you could support using 1D8 + Elephant's con modifier until the end of the current wild shape at most.

[hifidelity2]

This definitely falls into "Ask your DM first". Some run it where you POOF level!. Some run it where you take a week off to train up or something like that. Some have other mechanisms that would interfere with using an alternate form.

Agree - In most of the games I play in there is a time of "reflection" - so any XP / level gain happens at the end of an adventure / at a suitable point rather than mid battle

[Crake]

I think you could support using 1D8 + Elephant's con modifier until the end of the current wild shape at most.

This is pretty much it. You don't recalculate hit points when entering wildshape, but otherwise, the moment your con modifier changes back, your hit points are recalculated and your normal con modifier. At best you'd get an extra couple of hit points, but since HP is mutable based on a shifting con modifier, they wouldn't last particularly long.

[stanprollyright]

I would SO never let you do that as a DM. It encourages players "forgetting" to change their HP back, and turns the abstraction of "levelling up" into a concrete event that has different effects depending on whether it happens at 9:30 or 11:45.

[bekeleven]

I would SO never let you do that as a DM. It encourages players "forgetting" to change their HP back, and turns the abstraction of "levelling up" into a concrete event that has different effects depending on whether it happens at 9:30 or 11:45.

The problem is that leveling up while in wild shape has some real gameplay implications, specifically regarding feat selection. I bring this up in my master class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?477895).

[Maximum Carnage]

Is this a serious question?

This is why DMs hate their players sometimes... If they were to allow you to take the extra CON points for gaining a level in your form, what is to stop you from wild shaping whenever you're 50 xp off from leveling up? This is trying to squeeze optimization out of a character that doesn't need it.

Enjoy being one of the most OP classes in the game, and leave well enough alone.

[Psyren]

Is this a serious question?

This is why DMs hate their players sometimes... If they were to allow you to take the extra CON points for gaining a level in your form, what is to stop you from wild shaping whenever you're 50 xp off from leveling up? This is trying to squeeze optimization out of a character that doesn't need it.

Enjoy being one of the most OP classes in the game, and leave well enough alone.

There's no need to assume malice without evidence. Some people are genuinely unclear on the rules; it's not as if the rulebooks use the most meticulous standard of writing.

[Maximum Carnage]

There's no need to assume malice without evidence. Some people are genuinely unclear on the rules; it's not as if the rulebooks use the most meticulous standard of writing.

It just seems to me that people care more about what their character looks like on paper, whereas you should be concerned about how your character interacts with the DM's world.

Every game I've ever hosted or played in, there's a PC who wants to be Mr Big**** who can do everything.

Maybe you are correct, and our OP was just unclear, but I highly doubt that's the case. I assumed his thought process was, "How can I get more health without any consequences. Hmm... Maybe I'll abuse an unclear rule." Some thought clearly went into this.

In my opinion, this is why 3.5 is dying, and there are no DMs to be found. Instead of playing for the joy of companionship or role playing, people are min/maxing like it's nobody's business, just in hopes of being the most powerful PC in the party.

[Baby Gary]

It just seems to me that people care more about what their character looks like on paper, whereas you should be concerned about how your character interacts with the DM's world.

Every game I've ever hosted or played in, there's a PC who wants to be Mr Big**** who can do everything.

Maybe you are correct, and our OP was just unclear, but I highly doubt that's the case. I assumed his thought process was, "How can I get more health without any consequences. Hmm... Maybe I'll abuse an unclear rule." Some thought clearly went into this.

In my opinion, this is why 3.5 is dying, and there are no DMs to be found. Instead of playing for the joy of companionship or role playing, people are min/maxing like it's nobody's business, just in hopes of being the most powerful PC in the party.

But what is the problem with being the most powerful? it is very fun (for me at least) to create OP characters, but both my current DMs like having OP enemies for us to fight. Also I am in NO WAY creating anything too OP, druids are inherently powerful, but my druid is not Pun Pun, the Emerald Legion, the Omicifier, or even the d2 crusader (who is not as powerful as the other ones). So what if some manipulating of an unclear rule when into this, it is only a 3 more HP per level, not anything like an infinity bonus to saves, skills, and attack, nor is it anything like bring immune to EVERY TYPE OF DAMAGE. If you have a problem with that go say that, but don't go critiquing what I thought of without critiquing any of the other way more OP stuff. Also this forum a lot of optimizing in it, why are you even using this section if you don't like optimizing? it just doesn't make a ton of sense.

[Maximum Carnage]

But what is the problem with being the most powerful? it is very fun (for me at least) to create OP characters, but both my current DMs like having OP enemies for us to fight. Also I am in NO WAY creating anything too OP, druids are inherently powerful, but my druid is not Pun Pun, the Emerald Legion, the Omicifier, or even the d2 crusader (who is not as powerful as the other ones). So what if some manipulating of an unclear rule when into this, it is only a 3 more HP per level, not anything like an infinity bonus to saves, skills, and attack, nor is it anything like bring immune to EVERY TYPE OF DAMAGE. If you have a problem with that go say that, but don't go critiquing what I thought of without critiquing any of the other way more OP stuff. Also this forum a lot of optimizing in it, why are you even using this section if you don't like optimizing? it just doesn't make a ton of sense.

Because it's a slippery slope kiddo. You literally just admitted to "manipulating" an unclear rule. 3 hit points here, an extra spell slot there. Soon your whole party will be comprised of homebrew epi-optimized gods.

[Barstro]

when you level up as a druid you gain 1d8+CON mod hit points, but what if I am in a high CON wild shape, like a bear or something like that has a high CON and I level up. The PHB saysSo if I level up as a bear do I get extra HP?

I'm a touch confused about how this is even a question;


Roll a Hit Die, add your characters Constitution modifier, and add the total roll to his or her hit points
1) Your character's Constitution Modifier is written on your character sheet.

2) In case #1 didn't make it clear; nothing that I found in Wild Shape or Beast Shape suggests that you get the animal's con. It clearly states that you take the form and some specific bonuses or abilities if they apply. Nothing I saw (granted, it was a quick search) even mentions Constitution at all until you get to Beast Shape IV (then it's clearly a +2 while shaped).

Unless I'm missing something (quite likely) I wouldn't even give you the "limited time bonus" for being in Wild Shape when you level unless you were in Beast Shape IV - Large Magical Beast.
EDIT; Despite searching "DnD Wild Shape" I looked at Pathfinder instead of 3.5. My bad.

[eggynack]

Optimization is about more than actually doing the thing in question. A lot of it is about understanding the essence of this extremely complicated game. Form changing is super wonky, so poking at its nature can get us to some really cool stuff. The thing where you get permanent HP obviously doesn't work, for repeatedly stated reasons. But the hours of HP thing? It could be real, and it opens up a few important questions regarding alternate form's functioning, as well as about the general nature of the game.

The core question being, what does it mean to retain your hit points? It's not something I've thought about overmuch, and maybe it should be thought about. Does it mean that your hit points are necessarily and inextricably tied to whatever they would be if you were in your base form? Or is it instead just an instantaneous process, opening you up to stuff afterwards. We all have this intuition about what the phrase means, but without analysis there's little rigor to it. We're the Wile E Coyote praying that everything will work fine if we just don't look down.

In fact, I just came up with a possibly even weirder and more interesting question, one with some serious impact on how the game functions, and one that can maybe be exploited under certain readings. So, assume a druid with 10 constitution, because whatever, and let's assume, on a totally rules illegal but mathematically friendly basis, that they are at level one, meaning 8 HP straight up. They wild shape into a brown bear, so now they have 19 constitution. They still have 8 HP, and we know that to be the case unambiguously. Then they put on an amulet of health +2. The intuitive understanding of this dynamic would be that you gain +1 HP, leaving the druid at 9.

But what's interesting to ask, what I'm not entirely sure I know the answer to, is where that 9 HP is coming from. The simple answer, what we mentally go with, is that the +2 applies directly to the base form for the purposes of HP, but is that correct? What I'm aiming towards here, the weird unintuitive result that prompted all this talk, is, the druid is getting +1 HP from constitution, but the druid in no way has 12 constitution. They have 21 constitution. There are so many ways to read this. Does the druid actually gain no HP from constitution, because nothing that happens to HP after wild shape counts? Do they gain one HP, because we're reading this new source of constitution entirely separately? Does the constitution weirdly catch up with itself, meaning now you get the full benefit of the bear's constitution?

Again, we'd guess the second one. But, while there's a sense to that, something about it feels wrong. Specifically, is constitution, as a statistic, meant to be considered in a wholly additive manner? Meaning, it doesn't matter precisely what your constitution is. All that matters is that your constitution changes, assuming a certain base constitution. I guess there's another reading of the +1 HP situation. That the way it works is that you just take any HP related to this particular constitution source and cross it out. One bothersome thing about that to me is that wild shape doesn't provide bonuses to constitution. It just gives you a new constitution, with all that implies, and then tells you to retain your HP.

Maybe I can make this whole argument in two sentences, and if I can, I may have gone overboard. Let's try it. The ability tells you to retain your hit points. The question is, for how long?

Edit: @Barstro: This is 3.5, not PF. The two operate differently, especially as regards wild shape. I haven't checked the exact way leveling is phrased as regards HP, but a lot of your arguments are based on this specific operation of wild shape.

[Barstro]

Edit: @Barstro: This is 3.5, not PF. The two operate differently, especially as regards wild shape. I haven't checked the exact way leveling is phrased as regards HP, but a lot of your arguments are based on this specific operation of wild shape.
I thought I looked at 3.5. My bad.


The creature gains the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) of its new form. It retains the mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha) of its original form. Apply any changed physical ability score modifiers in all appropriate areas with one exception: the creature retains the hit points of its original form despite any change to its Constitution.

I'd amend my #2 above to show that the Constitution Score of the creature does not affect hit points. Still seems clear to me. Con bonus to HP is still based on the character's Con, not the creature's Con.

[bekeleven]

It just seems to me that people care more about what their character looks like on paper, whereas you should be concerned about how your character interacts with the DM's world.

Every game I've ever hosted or played in, there's a PC who wants to be Mr Big**** who can do everything.

Maybe you are correct, and our OP was just unclear, but I highly doubt that's the case. I assumed his thought process was, "How can I get more health without any consequences. Hmm... Maybe I'll abuse an unclear rule." Some thought clearly went into this.

In my opinion, this is why 3.5 is dying, and there are no DMs to be found. Instead of playing for the joy of companionship or role playing, people are min/maxing like it's nobody's business, just in hopes of being the most powerful PC in the party.

"Hey, I can do all sorts of new things by taking levels in a prestige class instead of my base class."

"You actually take levels in orcus."

[eggynack]

I'd amend my #2 above to show that the Constitution Score of the creature does not affect hit points. Still seems clear to me. Con bonus to HP is still based on the character's Con.
That's not precisely how it's phrased though. The way it's put, when you use an alternate form ability, like wild shape, you retain your hit points. I return to my last post in wondering how long you're supposed to retain your hit points. Is the retaining effect permanent, something that goes on as long as you're in a different form? Does it give way various effects that add HP, and to what extent? It's weird.

[bekeleven]

That's not precisely how it's phrased though. The way it's put, when you use an alternate form ability, like wild shape, you retain your hit points. I return to my last post in wondering how long you're supposed to retain your hit points. Is the retaining effect permanent, something that goes on as long as you're in a different form? Does it give way various effects that add HP, and to what extent? It's weird.

As the official wild shape understander, I can say with mathematical certainty: If you level up while wild shaped, you gain no HP for that level.

[eggynack]

As the official wild shape understander, I can say with mathematical certainty: If you level up while wild shaped, you gain no HP for that level.
That would be such an amazing result. I feel like there's probably a self consistent reading of this whole thing that matches our intuition about it, but I also feel like there are several also self consistent readings that are totally insane.

[Psyren]

I'm a touch confused about how this is even a question;


1) Your character's Constitution Modifier is written on your character sheet.

2) In case #1 didn't make it clear; nothing that I found in Wild Shape or Beast Shape suggests that you get the animal's con. It clearly states that you take the form and some specific bonuses or abilities if they apply. Nothing I saw (granted, it was a quick search) even mentions Constitution at all until you get to Beast Shape IV (then it's clearly a +2 while shaped).

Unless I'm missing something (quite likely) I wouldn't even give you the "limited time bonus" for being in Wild Shape when you level unless you were in Beast Shape IV - Large Magical Beast.

I think OP is playing 3.5 though I may be wrong.

Though given both the OP's post and eggy's, I'm doubly glad I moved onto Pathfinder, where the designers have both freedom and incentive to continue injecting sanity into the system via clarifications. I'm firmly of the opinion that a rules-heavy needs this kind of thing to survive, because however much in the minority some of the more ridiculous RAW interpretations can be, they still get magnified by the internet over time and drive people away from the system eventually, or turn them off from picking it up.