Barbarian QoL increases?

[Tanuki Tales]

Just out of curiosity, what would you suggest needs to be added/improved to the Barbarian class to bring it up to Tier 3/Tier 2?

[Lorddenorstrus]

Just out of curiosity, what would you suggest needs to be added/improved to the Barbarian class to bring it up to Tier 3/Tier 2?

Well for one it can't reach tier 2. You'll notice tiers 1 and 2 are casters, or can do something similar. You'd have to give the barbarian spellcasting to be tier 2. So, you can't. Tier 3? martial maneuvers from ToB perhaps?

[Tanuki Tales]

Well for one it can't reach tier 2. You'll notice tiers 1 and 2 are casters, or can do something similar. You'd have to give the barbarian spellcasting to be tier 2. So, you can't. Tier 3? martial maneuvers from ToB perhaps?

Tier 1 and Tier 2 do not require spellcasting, they just require a bevy of available options to solve most situations that are easily accessible/interchangeable or at least wide enough in application.

The simple and lazy way to make something Tier 1 or 2 is just to slap spellcasting on it.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Tier 3? They're not that far off with the right ACFs. Pounce + Rage gives you decent offense, especially if you bump up the frequency you can Rage. Folding Trapkiller and some of the classic Intimidate options into the chassis would give you some helpful stuff that's not directly related to murder; some Strength and combat maneuver-related bonuses (say, +1/2 level to Strength checks, and no AoOs for attempting combat maneuvers while raging) would be even snazzier. You could maybe give them some scout-y stuff too-- actually, Barbarian//Scout would be a pretty solid T3 wilderness type all by itself.

Tier 2... good luck. Reeeaaalll good luck. It's hard to hit that level without spells-- you're talking about inventing some bat**** insane super-strength type stuff, the sort of things that can murder the occasional encounter and wreck strategic havok. Long-distance leaping, lifting and breaking huge objects, that sort of thing.

[Lorddenorstrus]

Tier 1 and Tier 2 do not require spellcasting, they just require a bevy of available options to solve most situations that are easily accessible/interchangeable or at least wide enough in application.

The simple and lazy way to make something Tier 1 or 2 is just to slap spellcasting on it.

Tier 1 ; Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, Artificer. Caster, Caster, Caster, Caster, Simulates all of the casters I listed before this. Erudite (Spell to Power Variant) Wow look at that, it casts spells.

Tier 2 ; Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Psion Caster, Caster, Psionics because those are so different than spells.. (Not really they're basically the same thing reflavored and using a point system rather than Vancian magic) Erudite, and Binder.

Wow would you look at that.. they all cast spells, emulate spell casting via breaking the item system of the game.. or use psionics which are cool psychic spells. I guess the deduction that tier 1 and 2 is basically the spellcasters are busted tier was to obvious for you. Try reading the list again.

[Tanuki Tales]

Tier 1 ; Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, Artificer. Caster, Caster, Caster, Caster, Simulates all of the casters I listed before this. Erudite (Spell to Power Variant) Wow look at that, it casts spells.

Tier 2 ; Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Psion Caster, Caster, Psionics because those are so different than spells.. (Not really they're basically the same thing reflavored and using a point system rather than Vancian magic) Erudite, and Binder.

Wow would you look at that.. they all cast spells, emulate spell casting via breaking the item system of the game.. or use psionics which are cool psychic spells. I guess the deduction that tier 1 and 2 is basically the spellcasters are busted tier was to obvious for you. Try reading the list again.

Your reading comprehension is astounding.

[ngilop]

Your reading comprehension is astounding.

OOH I CAN DO BLUE TYPE AS WELL AM I COOL NOW?


The point Grod and others tried to make that you seemed to have missed is simple.

You either need to give a class the equivalent of spells ( or things that are not spells but like totally are spells or run off spells (psionics and item creation)

or give them such absurd abilities that you might as well give them spells. So like being able to jump so far you can jump from the prime material and land in the Abyss or slap a dead body so hard it comes back to life. ( place shift/ rasie dead) ETC ETC.

But I would be 100% sure that everybody playing that sort of class would just say 'why did you give them spells but like totally not call them spells?'

In order to get them to tier 2.

Tier 3 is an easy enough fix honestly. Barbarian already have the combat schtrick down pat. You need to branch out their out of combat options to make them relevant in such situations.

[Tanuki Tales]

The point Grod and others tried to make that you seemed to have missed is simple.


The arrogance is adorable, but why even try to bring Grod into it?

I'm not the one who made the false equivalence that to be Tier 1 or 2, you must have spells. Instead of what Tier 1 and Tier 2 actually represents in terms of versatility and ease at solving multiple potential encounters with your built in kit and fewer expenditure of resources.

So, I reiterate:


The simple and lazy way to make something Tier 1 or 2 is just to slap spellcasting on it.

[ngilop]

The arrogance is adorable, but why even try to bring Grod into it?

I'm not the one who made the false equivalence that to be Tier 1 or 2, you must have spells. Instead of what Tier 1 and Tier 2 actually represents in terms of versatility and ease at solving multiple potential encounters with your built in kit and fewer expenditure of resources.

So, I reiterate:

thanks for the compliment. I find your purposefulness on ignoring what myself, others, and Grod have already stated is adorable as well.

Please, read what I wrote and what grod wrote about what it takes to get a class to tier 2.

HINT: it did not say anything about giving them spell casting.

[Tanuki Tales]

thanks for the compliment. I find your purposefulness on ignoring what myself, others, and Grod have already stated is adorable as well.

Please, read what I wrote and what grod wrote about what it takes to get a class to tier 2.

You keep trying to drag Grog into this, when I never commented or have said anything in detraction to his response to the thread. :smallconfused:

[ngilop]

Uhmm. I am not dragging grod into this.

he literally posted in this thread I have no idea how you are utterly unable to view his post.

allow me to quote it for you so that you might be able to read it in all of it's glory.

Tier 3? They're not that far off with the right ACFs. Pounce + Rage gives you decent offense, especially if you bump up the frequency you can Rage. Folding Trapkiller and some of the classic Intimidate options into the chassis would give you some helpful stuff that's not directly related to murder; some Strength and combat maneuver-related bonuses (say, +1/2 level to Strength checks, and no AoOs for attempting combat maneuvers while raging) would be even snazzier. You could maybe give them some scout-y stuff too-- actually, Barbarian//Scout would be a pretty solid T3 wilderness type all by itself.

Tier 2... good luck. Reeeaaalll good luck. It's hard to hit that level without spells-- you're talking about inventing some bat**** insane super-strength type stuff, the sort of things that can murder the occasional encounter and wreck strategic havok. Long-distance leaping, lifting and breaking huge objects, that sort of thing.

[Tanuki Tales]

Uhmm. I am not dragging grod into this.

he literally posted in this thread I have no idea how you are utterly unable to view his post.

allow me to quote it for you so that you might be able to read it in all of it's glory.

What we're having here is obviously a failure of communication.

I fully understand what you're saying, but you seem to fail to understand me. :smalltongue:

[Lorddenorstrus]

What we're having here is obviously a failure of communication.

I fully understand what you're saying, but you seem to fail to understand me. :smalltongue:

No we understand what you're saying, it's just moronic and ignoring everything everyone else has said.

[SirNibbles]

Spellcasting = extra power and extra versatility = better tier

There are few things that give so much power and versatility as spellcasting.

A Barbarian solves problems by hitting things with a big stick. A Sorcerer solves problems by casting whatever spell is best for the situation. Usually, this gives a better result than hitting things with a big stick can, since hitting things with a big stick can't solve all problems equally (or at all).

[Telonius]

In order to make them Tier 2, you'd need to give them abilities that would solve nearly every encounter, but have a limited availability; or completely break the campaign in a limited number of circumstances. There are very few things in 3.5 that come remotely close to doing that, that aren't spells or spell-like things (like psionics and binding vestiges). The only thing that I can think of (that already somewhat exists in the game) would be along the lines of granting at-will Polymorph, and even that's edging up against spellcasting, for any spell-ish (Ex) abilities. Otherwise you're going to need to homebrew some seriously crazy abilities.

[Jormengand]

In order to make them tier 3, copy and paste the rogue's skills/level and class skill list onto the barbarian and you're borderline there.

In order to make them tier 2, you need to have things like large amounts of DR/- and resistance to everything, the ability to break any obstacle (or person) in their way, faster movement than a hasted monk on some kind of dangerous illegal drug, the ability to stop flying creatures from flying (or just shoot/throw things at them and make them dead), and all the skills the rogue can do, only better, as a basic starter.

Consider a quest like, uh, let's say the Seven Tombs quest from Diablo II because I'm feeling lazy - you need to grab three artifacts from an underground burrow full of horrible vermin, a tomb full of undead necromancers (and undead who have been/are being thereby necromanced), find the tomb of an ancient sage in the hidden Canyon of the Magi, and then combine the three to bypass a wall that leads you to the Big Bad's bigger brother, and kill him. As it happens, by the time you show up, he's not there, but he's left the quest's final boss to fight you. A tier 2 class like a sorcerer will scry the big bad, teleport to his location, and kill him with frankly overpowered spells. The barbarian would have to be able to go "Oh yeah, the tomb of Tal Rasha? The ancient sage guy? Yeah, I know where that is, lemme show you", then go into the tomb, smash straight through the wall (with none of the artefacts), and cut the big bad to shreds. And that still isn't bypassing the quest as fast as the sorcerer, but it will have to do. Because that's the power of T2: being able to bypass plot devices entirely.

[Tanuki Tales]

No we understand what you're saying, it's just moronic and ignoring everything everyone else has said.

Pointing out that you can be Tier 1 or Tier 2 without spellcasting is not ignoring you. It's just pointing out you're wrong.

As Grod kindly pointed out in his post (see, now I am referencing his reply), super strength Incredible Hulk shenanigans Ex/Su abilities could be used.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Um, for the record, I'm mostly with Tanuki here.

To hit Tier 1/2, you need a wide range of exceptionally powerful abilities-- not just tactically, but strategically. You need class features that let you win not just encounters, but entire adventures. The easiest way to do that is with spells, or a comparable ability like powers, but that's hardly the only way.

I once saw a homebrew class that let you shapeshift into just about any monster out there... including their (Su) abilities. That gives them access to all sorts of crazy stuff-- true seeing, spawn creation, mind control, planar travel, telepathy, all kinds of save-or-lose abilities, AoE blasts, astral projection... they were absolutely a Tier 1 class, with no spells attached. I wrote my own "mundane" Tier 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?307285-The-Myth-Tier-1-quot-Mundane-quot-Challenge-Accepted!)-- it did things like jump halfway across a continent, punch people so hard they lost their memory, mind control people just by talking to them, sit in a room and deduce what someone across the world was doing with perfect accuracy, build forts and cities single-handedly, that sort of absurdity.

So, yeah, you could make a T2 class without spells, or at least something in that general vicinity; it's just hard, and it's the sort of thing that usually makes DMs scream about "brokenness" more than casters do.

[SirNibbles]

Um, for the record, I'm mostly with Tanuki here.

To hit Tier 1/2, you need a wide range of exceptionally powerful abilities-- not just tactically, but strategically. You need class features that let you win not just encounters, but entire adventures. The easiest way to do that is with spells, or a comparable ability like powers, but that's hardly the only way.

I once saw a homebrew class that let you shapeshift into just about any monster out there... including their (Su) abilities. That gives them access to all sorts of crazy stuff-- true seeing, spawn creation, mind control, planar travel, telepathy, all kinds of save-or-lose abilities, AoE blasts, astral projection... they were absolutely a Tier 1 class, with no spells attached. I wrote my own "mundane" Tier 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?307285-The-Myth-Tier-1-quot-Mundane-quot-Challenge-Accepted!)-- it did things like jump halfway across a continent, punch people so hard they lost their memory, mind control people just by talking to them, sit in a room and deduce what someone across the world was doing with perfect accuracy, build forts and cities single-handedly, that sort of absurdity.

So, yeah, you could make a T2 class without spells, or at least something in that general vicinity; it's just hard, and it's the sort of thing that usually makes DMs scream about "brokenness" more than casters do.

I feel like that breaks immersion more than just giving them spells.

Jumping across the continent? You have to exert an absurd amount of force in a single instant. Unless the ground is very hard, you're going to sink into it a bit (and you're going to leave a crater anyhow). Unless your bones are unbreakable, they will instantly shatter. Your muscles will tear themselves apart. Your body will burn away from the air resistance if you try to go that fast. When you land, your bones will break again. It doesn't matter, because you died when you pushed off the ground.

[ngilop]

Grod, I see your point..

that you can make a class without spells.


but like my original post in this thread's example.

yoou basically duplicate spells but fluff them to be EX abilities.


deduce what someone across the world was doing with perfect accuracy to me seems like you just went Divination only lets not call it that but instead call it 'dude knows stuff, yo'

or mind control people just by talking to them looks to be suggestion only lets call it 'babe has the goods'

TO me when the abilities you give the class is basically spell just refluffed, in my opinion it still just spells. one just slapped the EX: tag on them and called them different names.

you want a good example of 'mundane' tier 1 take a gander at Xefas mythis stuff.

[Jormengand]

you want a good example of 'mundane' tier 1 take a gander at Xefas mythis stuff.

I never really saw mythos as mundane either, mainly because I've mostly seen it used to lob mountains at people, but there we go...

[Waker]

Bumping a Barbarian up that many tiers without magic is tricky.
-More skill points and skills. 6 or 8, plus some non-smashy skills.
- More feats. Not like a fighter, but rather Brawler from PF. While raging, grant extra feats to suit the situation.
-Ignore size restrictions. Special attacks like tripping and grappling can't be used against xxl enemies, ignore that while raging.

There are of course many other requirements but I'm about to walk out the door. I'll add more later.

[Grod_The_Giant]

(On topic: I think gestalting Barbarian//Scout is your best, easiest bet-- you get plenty of skills and plenty of combat punch, along with some neat utility abilities here and there)


yoou basically duplicate spells but fluff them to be EX abilities.
I mean, you do it more thoughtfully than just saying "lol it's (Ex) Teleport lol," certainly. My Myth's leap-teleport, for instance, takes time, has you make Strength checks to smash through ceilings, and allows to to generate a shockwave on arrival. His earthquake-stomp leaves gaping chasms everywhere that have to be climbed out of, instead of slamming shut; his super-deduction requires you to make a Knowledge check and has modifiers for differing levels of knowledge. By my memory, that's the same sort of things the Mythos does-- spell-caliber effects with meaningful non-spell quirks.


I feel like that breaks immersion more than just giving them spells.

Jumping across the continent? You have to exert an absurd amount of force in a single instant. Unless the ground is very hard, you're going to sink into it a bit (and you're going to leave a crater anyhow). Unless your bones are unbreakable, they will instantly shatter. Your muscles will tear themselves apart. Your body will burn away from the air resistance if you try to go that fast. When you land, your bones will break again. It doesn't matter, because you died when you pushed off the ground.
It's a point of perspective, I guess. I'm sure you've heard all the guy at the gym/mundanes-already-break-some-laws-of-physics stuff already, but... 3.5 is not well suited for emulating reality at higher levels. It just... isn't. Why don't my Fighter's bones break when he jumps a mile straight up? For the same reason they don't when he gets clubbed in the face by a five-ton giant. Because if the party Wizard gets to be Dr. Strange, then the Barbarian certainly ought to get to be the Hulk.

"Mundane" is also just a bad term in these discussions; it really should be "martial." Because you're not mundane as a high-level Fighter; you're Beowulf, or Rama, or Hercules, or Cú Chulainn, or, you know... that sort of figure.

[ngilop]

(On topic: I think gestalting Barbarian//Scout is your best, easiest bet-- you get plenty of skills and plenty of combat punch, along with some neat utility abilities here and there)


I mean, you do it more thoughtfully than just saying "lol it's (Ex) Teleport lol," certainly. My Myth's leap-teleport, for instance, takes time, has you make Strength checks to smash through ceilings, and allows to to generate a shockwave on arrival. His earthquake-stomp leaves gaping chasms everywhere that have to be climbed out of, instead of slamming shut; his super-deduction requires you to make a Knowledge check and has modifiers for differing levels of knowledge. By my memory, that's the same sort of things the Mythos does-- spell-caliber effects with meaningful non-spell quirks.


It's a point of perspective, I guess. I'm sure you've heard all the guy at the gym/mundanes-already-break-some-laws-of-physics stuff already, but... 3.5 is not well suited for emulating reality at higher levels. It just... isn't. Why don't my Fighter's bones break when he jumps a mile straight up? For the same reason they don't when he gets clubbed in the face by a five-ton giant. Because if the party Wizard gets to be Dr. Strange, then the Barbarian certainly ought to get to be the Hulk.

"Mundane" is also just a bad term in these discussions; it really should be "martial." Because you're not mundane as a high-level Fighter; you're Beowulf, or Rama, or Hercules, or Cú Chulainn, or, you know... that sort of figure.

bolded the relevant part for my reply :)

I understand and I do agree. But, the point is you are just replicating spells and re-fluffing them to be more mundane-esque abilities. SO it is exactly like whats been stated you need spells to bring something into the game breaking teirs of 1 & 2. whether or not you call them spells or myths or whatever xefas calls his creations abilities.

and I 100% agree with what a high level mundane character should be. I mean dang, he should be able to cleave reality and go into the underworld. But what do you end up doing? just giving them the spell Gate.. but with a different name and some cool fluff to go along with it
OR you give them time stop and call it heroic rush or some nonsense like that

(FYI both of the above examples are what I have done for my big fighter project)


As much as I hate to admit it, you literally have to give mundanes ( or martials as you put it) spells, but with another name and some fluff that makes them not-spells.

Tier 3 can be done totally without spells or stuff that is not spells but really is. to get the game and campaign breaking power, ability, and versatility of tiers 1 and 2 you need spells. Even though they might not take the form of actual spells, its the same principal.

[Buufreak]

In order to make them tier 3, copy and paste the rogue's skills/level and class skill list onto the barbarian and you're borderline there.

In order to make them tier 2, you need to have things like large amounts of DR/- and resistance to everything, the ability to break any obstacle (or person) in their way, faster movement than a hasted monk on some kind of dangerous illegal drug, the ability to stop flying creatures from flying (or just shoot/throw things at them and make them dead), and all the skills the rogue can do, only better, as a basic starter.

Consider a quest like, uh, let's say the Seven Tombs quest from Diablo II because I'm feeling lazy - you need to grab three artifacts from an underground burrow full of horrible vermin, a tomb full of undead necromancers (and undead who have been/are being thereby necromanced), find the tomb of an ancient sage in the hidden Canyon of the Magi, and then combine the three to bypass a wall that leads you to the Big Bad's bigger brother, and kill him. As it happens, by the time you show up, he's not there, but he's left the quest's final boss to fight you. A tier 2 class like a sorcerer will scry the big bad, teleport to his location, and kill him with frankly overpowered spells. The barbarian would have to be able to go "Oh yeah, the tomb of Tal Rasha? The ancient sage guy? Yeah, I know where that is, lemme show you", then go into the tomb, smash straight through the wall (with none of the artefacts), and cut the big bad to shreds. And that still isn't bypassing the quest as fast as the sorcerer, but it will have to do. Because that's the power of T2: being able to bypass plot devices entirely.

Dnd: where we compare power by who can do a tomb rush the fastest.

[Jormengand]

Dnd: where we compare power by who can do a tomb rush the fastest.

In fairness, I did complete that quest mere hours before posting. I could have chosen another one.

Though perhaps the D&D-based neverwinter nights is a better example - a wizard would be able to scry on the four important creatures of importance, teleport in and get them, and then leave (though not at the levels at which the first chapter takes place admittedly).

[Zanos]

Any homebrew that makes classes tier 1 or 2 without spells looks very suspiciously like spell-casting, so saying that slapping spells on stuff is the "lazy way" to make high tier classes is fallacious, it's pretty much the only way.

If you want to make a better barbarian I would give it full maneuver progression from Devoted Spirit and Iron Heart. And would you look at that, maneuvers are very suspiciously like spell-casting! Neat.

For basic QoL, start with making rage HP THP that are lost first.

[Jormengand]

I suppose this is the point where I nominate tricks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?433533-quot-I-will-crush-you-puny-mage!-quot-(3-5-hypermundane-class-PEACH)), which look suspiciously less like spellcasting and more like feats that don't suck, isn't it?

[Buufreak]

In fairness, I did complete that quest mere hours before posting. I could have chosen another one.

Though perhaps the D&D-based neverwinter nights is a better example - a wizard would be able to scry on the four important creatures of importance, teleport in and get them, and then leave (though not at the levels at which the first chapter takes place admittedly).

You well could. Or you could pick any of the D2 rushes that are often traded for forge drops. My point being just like some were better suited for those tasks, so too are some better suited for dnd tasks. That's the whole point of the teir system I thought. Pointing out in an orderly fashion which classes get the most done in order of efficiency and effectiveness.

[stanprollyright]

The Barbarian concept is more than just a really strong guy. Give him shapeshifting, a la Bear Warrior, but more forms. Different sizes and movement modes and perception modes that double as disguises. Let him call upon the spirits of his ancestors for divination, utility buffs, and summon them to combat.

Still doesn't quite break into tier 2, but getting close.

[Gruftzwerg]

I would like to ask the question: Why would you do that? (Bringing Barb 20 on T1/2 lvl)
I mean, I see no reason for it.

If you wanna play on T1/2 power lvl with muscles > polymorph/shapeshift or just straight "polymorph any object" to make it permanent (with some cheese).

If you wanna include the Rage ability, there is a spell for it.

And since classes aren't a label on your forehead, why?

Noone forces you to build your T1 Conan as barabrian 20 and the effort of homebrew needed just would blast my mind.

Before I would take the task to homebrew this, I would stick to "storytelling RPG" with no rules & rolls at all. I have done this kind of rpg sessions too and had fun. More fun than homebrewing something into T1 I would imagine.

edit:
on a sidenote, if the reason is to play together with T1/2, that task is even simpler to solve. I really don't get the reason behind this. :smallbiggrin:

[Dagroth]

If the Tome of Battle Maneuver list contained many abilities that did things the way spells do (more status effects, more scaling DCs, more area effects, more battlefield control, more ranged abilities)... and more non-feat ways existed to gain more maneuvers known...

Then it would be possible to build a ToB-type character that was Tier 2.

Then take the Crusader chassis, modify the class abilities to be Rage & Barbarian-like... swap Tiger Claw for Devoted Spirit...

You could create a ToB-Barbarian class... still wouldn't be T-2 though.

[Eldariel]

bolded the relevant part for my reply :)

I understand and I do agree. But, the point is you are just replicating spells and re-fluffing them to be more mundane-esque abilities. SO it is exactly like whats been stated you need spells to bring something into the game breaking teirs of 1 & 2. whether or not you call them spells or myths or whatever xefas calls his creations abilities.

and I 100% agree with what a high level mundane character should be. I mean dang, he should be able to cleave reality and go into the underworld. But what do you end up doing? just giving them the spell Gate.. but with a different name and some cool fluff to go along with it
OR you give them time stop and call it heroic rush or some nonsense like that

(FYI both of the above examples are what I have done for my big fighter project)


As much as I hate to admit it, you literally have to give mundanes ( or martials as you put it) spells, but with another name and some fluff that makes them not-spells.

Tier 3 can be done totally without spells or stuff that is not spells but really is. to get the game and campaign breaking power, ability, and versatility of tiers 1 and 2 you need spells. Even though they might not take the form of actual spells, its the same principal.

What even is a 'spell'? To me it looks like you're just using it as an umbrella term for spell effects available or possible in the game. Which, given that spells can do anything, would mean that anything is basically replicating a spell effect. This appears to be a useless definition: it reduces the meaning of the word to 'everything'.

Of course it's impossible to make T1 without spells under such definition. But why use such? Everything only has spell effects anyways. Even a punch is just a spell. I find it silly to focus on the 'what' and ignore the 'how'. Indeed, something being a minute-long ritual and invoking some mystic energy feels quite different from someone punching really hard. The Hulk is fundamentally different from Dr. Strange even though both have cosmic level powers.

[Lans]

Giving the barbarian an ability to get a pet seems like a way to go if you want tier 2. Make it use leadership style rules but be based off of strength instead of charisma.

[stanprollyright]

Giving the barbarian an ability to get a pet seems like a way to go if you want tier 2. Make it use leadership style rules but be based off of strength instead of charisma.

Rangers and Paladins have pets, doesn't make them Tier 2. It actually seems like it would double down on the whole "Barbarian fight good. other stuff hard." Now they fight extra good with a bear friend. Doesn't expand your options too much.

[Buufreak]

Rangers and Paladins have pets, doesn't make them Tier 2. It actually seems like it would double down on the whole "Barbarian fight good. other stuff hard." Now they fight extra good with a bear friend. Doesn't expand your options too much.

Unless he got a pet with tons of ex and su abilities, at which point the pet is innately better than the PC, which brings us back to our argument that seems to be going nowhere.

[Lans]

Unless he got a pet with tons of ex and su abilities, at which point the pet is innately better than the PC, which brings us back to our argument that seems to be going nowhere.

It really just needs 1 good ability under Jaronks definition. Under other definitions I think the barbarians set abilities could get there.

It would have to be based off CR or HD instead of ecl to get you there though.

[Keltest]

What even is a 'spell'? To me it looks like you're just using it as an umbrella term for spell effects available or possible in the game. Which, given that spells can do anything, would mean that anything is basically replicating a spell effect. This appears to be a useless definition: it reduces the meaning of the word to 'everything'.

Of course it's impossible to make T1 without spells under such definition. But why use such? Everything only has spell effects anyways. Even a punch is just a spell. I find it silly to focus on the 'what' and ignore the 'how'. Indeed, something being a minute-long ritual and invoking some mystic energy feels quite different from someone punching really hard. The Hulk is fundamentally different from Dr. Strange even though both have cosmic level powers.

In as much as "spell" is a specific word with a meaning that is being used loosely here, what this is, is largely a semantic argument that doesn't address the greater point that breaking into T2 or T1 requires abilities that are supernatural in origin and effect. The label you attach to these reality-warping effects is largely irrelevant; you need to warp reality in some way, shape or form to get into T1 or T2.

[Deophaun]

In as much as "spell" is a specific word with a meaning that is being used loosely here, what this is, is largely a semantic argument that doesn't address the greater point that breaking into T2 or T1 requires abilities that are supernatural in origin and effect. The label you attach to these reality-warping effects is largely irrelevant; you need to warp reality in some way, shape or form to get into T1 or T2.
Or you can just go into quantum mechanics and up the incredibly improbable possibilities into the probable, such as whether or not you spontaneously appear in the BBEG's chamber due to the waveform of all the particles that compose your body just happening to settle on that outcome.

Nothing supernatural about it.

It is true that at that level you're playing a comic book character which messes with the traditional sword-and-sorcery genre, but magic was always constrained there as well, and RPGs have been removing the limits on that side of the equation for a long time with little objection.

[Kitsuneymg]

From what I remember, frank and k made a set of source books that included a (at the time) t1 fighter, t2 monk and barbarian, and a really great paladin. http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Races_of_War_(3.5e_Sourcebook)/Warriors_with_Class Seems to have the classes.

As I said, this was long ago, and probably 3.0. So it might need more to keep up with 3.5 wizard cheese. But take a look and start from there for your t2 barbarian.

[Jormengand]

Or you can just go into quantum mechanics and up the incredibly improbable possibilities into the probable, such as whether or not you spontaneously appear in the BBEG's chamber due to the waveform of all the particles that compose your body just happening to settle on that outcome.

Nothing supernatural about it.

Would you like your character to use the healing effects of crystals and chakras while you're at it? Or are you just going to stick to horribly abusing quantum theory until it gives you the result you want?

Although this does give me an idea for a class...

[logic_error]

Hmm.

A lazy way you say?

UMD. Access to friends that are artificers.

Might be enough :P.

To really give them class features, generally being able to break action economy and initiative order is another thing. So give them means to break out of initiative order; something like Uncanny Reflexes, where they are harder to surprise and act first in the order Allow Rage to add haste like effects. A bit of plot armor in form of immunity to mind-affecting while raging, spell resistance while raging. These will add resource based temporary buffs that emulate caster killers that can give wizards some trouble a la Conan.

[Eldariel]

In as much as "spell" is a specific word with a meaning that is being used loosely here, what this is, is largely a semantic argument that doesn't address the greater point that breaking into T2 or T1 requires abilities that are supernatural in origin and effect. The label you attach to these reality-warping effects is largely irrelevant; you need to warp reality in some way, shape or form to get into T1 or T2.

Supernatural as in practically impossible in reality? Sure. But the source can be completely "mundane" superstrength, voice of gods or whatever. In the case of the Hulk, an elixir for instance. In the case of Heracles, a divine forebear. No reason such things need to be magical in any given settings.

[Lans]

Another way is the totem/fetish route where the effect is more the product of the creatures body part, the barbarian just sets up his trophy.

[Buufreak]

In as much as "spell" is a specific word with a meaning that is being used loosely here, what this is, is largely a semantic argument that doesn't address the greater point that breaking into T2 or T1 requires abilities that are supernatural in origin and effect. The label you attach to these reality-warping effects is largely irrelevant; you need to warp reality in some way, shape or form to get into T1 or T2.

So we are taking an idea of an unnatural effect, a "supernatural" one, if you will, and are explaining it with theoretical science? Someone needs a scientific theory history lesson.

[Deophaun]

Would you like your character to use the healing effects of crystals and chakras while you're at it? Or are you just going to stick to horribly abusing quantum theory until it gives you the result you want?
Have you been to this board before? Horribly abusing the rules is what we do.

[Keltest]

Supernatural as in practically impossible in reality? Sure. But the source can be completely "mundane" superstrength, voice of gods or whatever. In the case of the Hulk, an elixir for instance. In the case of Heracles, a divine forebear. No reason such things need to be magical in any given settings.

Again, saying "well you can refluff it so it isn't actually called magic!" is missing the point. You need abilities beyond those you get just from using your weapons and skill points to break into T1 and T2.

[Jormengand]

Have you been to this board before? Horribly abusing the rules is what we do.

There's a difference between "The rules of D&D are technically written than way; how can I mess with that?" and "Quantum theory doesn't work this way but I'm gonna pretend it does because it fits my perspective."


Again, saying "well you can refluff it so it isn't actually called magic!" is missing the point. You need abilities beyond those you get just from using your weapons and skill points to break into T1 and T2.

Right, but there's a massive difference between "Things which are not weapons or skill points" and "Things which are magic." Whirlwind attack isn't magic. Grappling isn't magic. Talking isn't magic. Armour isn't magic. Rage isn't magic. There are a whole lot of things which aren't magic but which aren't weapons or skill points.

[Deophaun]

Again, saying "well you can refluff it so it isn't actually called magic!" is missing the point. You need abilities beyond those you get just from using your weapons and skill points to break into T1 and T2.
Interesting dichotomy. Well, if walking on a cloud, slipping through an impenetrable barrier, running across a ceiling, swimming up a waterfall, and reading minds are kosher...

But we've now determined that the Barbarian's Rage ability is already magic, because it isn't granted through using a weapon or skill points.

There's a difference between "The rules of D&D are technically written than way; how can I mess with that?" and "Quantum theory doesn't work this way but I'm gonna pretend it does because it fits my perspective."
"The rules of D&D" include the laws of physics. It's in the DMG. So, if the laws of physics are technically written that way, we can ask "how can I mess with that?" Take the concept of the preternatural and apply it to quantum mechanics and you wind up with comic book heroes.

Or are you objecting that comic book heroes are fully grounded in known applications of science; gamma radiation really does make people big and green when angry and the LHC has confirmed the existence of the Speed Force?

[Cosi]

In combat, the Barbarian needs better numbers, and somewhat better defenses, but there's not really any problem with "get angry" as a combat option all the way up to 20th. You might want to give him some kind of abilities to make combat less "I hit it really, really hard" and more interesting, but you can make a viable Wizard-level Barbarian on just "unstoppable ball of rage".

As far as non-combat goes, I think the Druid list is probably the place to start. You could go with elemental spells plus divinations and give it some kind of spirit world type deal. Maybe like Abjuration + Divination + Elements?


I would like to ask the question: Why would you do that? (Bringing Barb 20 on T1/2 lvl)

Because you want a Barbarian class that is balanced with the Wizard class and think buffing stuff is better than nerfing stuff? Like, I don't understand what part of this is confusing you. It might not be the best solution, but it's certainly not a particularly baffling one.


From what I remember, frank and k made a set of source books that included a (at the time) t1 fighter, t2 monk and barbarian, and a really great paladin. http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Races_of_War_(3.5e_Sourcebook)/Warriors_with_Class Seems to have the classes.

As I said, this was long ago, and probably 3.0. So it might need more to keep up with 3.5 wizard cheese. But take a look and start from there for your t2 barbarian.

No, the Tomes are all 3.5 content. IIRC, they actually came out fairly close to the end of 3.5. It's just that 3e was a really long time ago.

In any case, Frank and K pretty vocally reject JaronK's tiers (at least, Frank does), so their Fighter isn't really designed to be "Tier One". Their classes are designed to play with a competent -- but not abusive -- Wizard out of the box, based on the SGT as a performance target. Also, they kind of cheat some by giving the Barbarian a pet Wizard to handle the strategic layer.

[Psyren]

I'd get T3 Barbarian by:

1) Starting with PF Barbarian
2) Let them swap out rage powers every morning or give them a "Forgotten Trick"-style floating power.

Or I could just play Bloodrager.

[Sam K]

To reach T2, you seem to need to have a limited number of tricks with flexibility and power equal or close to that of spells. That's what most of the T2 classes have in common: they can pick a wide variety of flexible and powerful abilities, but they can only have a limited amount of them and they cannot easily change the abilities they have. It doesn't really matter if the abilities are supernatural as D&D define it: a T2 character with Ex abilities is still T2.

Breaking the action and HP economy completely (multiple guaranteed kills a round, regardless of defences) doesn't make you T2 - it makes you a VERY EFFICIENT T3 because you're really only good at killing. Likewise, even if you get a very limited selection of supernatural abilities that likely won't get you to T2: a crusader can heal and become almost immune to HP damage: by feats they can also teleport and become invisible (the coolest shadow hand maneuvers

I would say that any "QoL" improvement to the barb that makes them T2, would over-shadow the existing abilities of the barbarian class to the point where it would no longer be "Barb that is T2" but rather "T2 class that can also rage". Which is a pretty cool concept all in all. But it wouldn't feel much like the 3.5 Barbarian class anymore.

[Gruftzwerg]

To reach T2, you seem to need to have a limited number of tricks with flexibility and power equal or close to that of spells. That's what most of the T2 classes have in common: they can pick a wide variety of flexible and powerful abilities, but they can only have a limited amount of them and they cannot easily change the abilities they have. It doesn't really matter if the abilities are supernatural as D&D define it: a T2 character with Ex abilities is still T2.

Breaking the action and HP economy completely (multiple guaranteed kills a round, regardless of defences) doesn't make you T2 - it makes you a VERY EFFICIENT T3 because you're really only good at killing. Likewise, even if you get a very limited selection of supernatural abilities that likely won't get you to T2: a crusader can heal and become almost immune to HP damage: by feats they can also teleport and become invisible (the coolest shadow hand maneuvers

I would say that any "QoL" improvement to the barb that makes them T2, would over-shadow the existing abilities of the barbarian class to the point where it would no longer be "Barb that is T2" but rather "T2 class that can also rage". Which is a pretty cool concept all in all. But it wouldn't feel much like the 3.5 Barbarian class anymore.

totally agree here.
Imho if somebody in my group (where we have 3 changing DMs) would want a T2 Barb, he would just end with a well build Barb-gish. No need to homebrew the class into nirvana. As said, nothing forces you to build your "barbarian fluff" character as Barb 20. Build him gish, refluff the magic more into barbarian style.
What about a runescarred berserker? Or an abjurant champion? There are some Barb gish builds out there that are already doing fine imho.

Imho, I see no reason why "every class 20" has to be the same powerlvl. Nothing forces you to go single class. Infact 3.5 is implying to multiclassing and prc for diversity.

[stanprollyright]

Idk about Tier 2, but I could make a Tier 1 Barbarian easy. Give him 19 Druid levels. :smalltongue:

[Sam K]

Imho, I see no reason why "every class 20" has to be the same powerlvl. Nothing forces you to go single class. Infact 3.5 is implying to multiclassing and prc for diversity.

I would go as far as saying that it's a good thing that classes vary in their possible impact. One of the charming things with D&D is that you can play the traditional HP economy based party (where combat is a game of who runs out of HP first, and wizards cast maximized fireballs with no metamagic reducers), OR you can play superheroes (where combat is a game of counters and rocket tag), OR you can play Demigods and Dragons (where combat doesn't happen because you just retconjured whomever tries to attack you out of existance).

I do wish the gap was a bit narrower though, and that mundane classes had easier ways to get up to at least high T3.

[DEMON]

Let's do something mildly crazy and see where we can go from there: ACF chaining (and some rules bending)!

Crafty Hunter ACF costs you everything Rage-y and gives you the ranger's Favored Enemy and Archery Combat Style class features. Now let's trade the Combat Style for the ranger's Wildshape ACF. That's a pretty need start.

Trap sense -> Trapkiller ACF is a pretty obvious choice, as it gives you an our of combat utility feature. Lion Totem's Pounce is another such feature, but might be redundant with Wildshape, so you might want to keep your Fast Movement (or trade it for another option).

Now let's manifest the Wolf Totem (and give up our damage reduction), getting Track and a bonus to survival (helps Trapkiller as well), for some more out of combat usefulness.

At this point you're only left with Uncanny Dodge and maybe Fast Movement... and Illiteracy, of course.

There's a bunch of ACFs these can be traded for, such as View Spirit World and Awesome Charge.

And if you manage to get your DM drunk, ask him nicely to give you back Rage, at least in some limited form, such as Berserker Strength... and buy him some more drinks.

[SirNibbles]

Let's do something mildly crazy and see where we can go from there: ACF chaining (and some rules bending)!

Crafty Hunter ACF costs you everything Rage-y and gives you the ranger's Favored Enemy and Archery Combat Style class features. Now let's trade the Combat Style for the ranger's Wildshape ACF. That's a pretty need start.

Trap sense -> Trapkiller ACF is a pretty obvious choice, as it gives you an our of combat utility feature. Lion Totem's Pounce is another such feature, but might be redundant with Wildshape, so you might want to keep your Fast Movement (or trade it for another option).

Now let's manifest the Wolf Totem (and give up our damage reduction), getting Track and a bonus to survival (helps Trapkiller as well), for some more out of combat usefulness.

At this point you're only left with Uncanny Dodge and maybe Fast Movement... and Illiteracy, of course.

There's a bunch of ACFs these can be traded for, such as View Spirit World and Awesome Charge.

And if you manage to get your DM drunk, ask him nicely to give you back Rage, at least in some limited form, such as Berserker Strength... and buy him some more drinks.

Can you do that? I feel like choosing a Ranger ACF when you're not a Ranger is kind of against the rules for ACFs.

[DEMON]

Can you do that? I feel like choosing a Ranger ACF when you're not a Ranger is kind of against the rules for ACFs.

ACF chaining - The belief that getting a feature from another class allows you to trade if for that class' ACF.

Many UA ACFs trade class features between classes.

We don't have an official church... yet :smallbiggrin: