Concept: cantrip fighter

[Mjolnirbear]

Inspired by the Maximum Cantrips thread, I decided to create the most usable character I could with all the useful cantrips, skipping overlapping effects.

So far, these are the overlapping effects:
*Vicious Mockery, Frostbite
*Hand of Radiance, Sword Burst, Thunderclap
*Thorn Whip, Lightning Lure
*Prestidigitation, druid craft, thaumaturgy (the effects don't overlap, but they're all the same idea, pick the one that best suits)

This puts all the cantrips I want at 15:
Eldritch Blast, Friends, GFB, Guidance, Mage Hand, Mending, Minor Illusion, Mold Earth, Produce Flame, Shape Water, Toll the Dead, and one each from the overlap groups.


For more fun and because I like kicking things in the head, I want it a melee range combatant. This means either hex blade or stone sorcerer. With these two, I'd need cha and con only and could dump almost anything. It could be done with bladesinger, but it's less MAD with the first two.

Probably need at least two feats: warcaster and magic initiate.

Play-wise it'd come online at 6: 3war and 3sorc,and depending on race have either 6 or 7 cantrips.

At level seven would come 3 more from Magic initiate and level 4 caster.

Warlock 5 for Extra Attack.
Arcane Cleric level 1 is the next most efficient dip, giving both cleric and wizard cantrips. At this point I could conceivably continue in sorc or warlock forever.

Tough enough for melee, uses cha for attacks, extra attack, quickened casting, self-healing, medium armor, all weapons, shields. Need wis/cha 13 to multiclass and stack the con for toughness. Fully online at sor4/war5/clr1, with all the most useful cantrips and the best rp ones.

Thoughts?

[Specter]

Huh... don't you mean Eldritch Knight?

[Mjolnirbear]

Assuming you aren't actually being sarcastic... How many cantrips do you think the EK gets? I'll tell you-not nearly enough.

[Desteplo]

Assuming you aren't actually being sarcastic... How many cantrips do you think the EK gets? I'll tell you-not nearly enough.

They can cantrip and BA attack at lvl7

[Mjolnirbear]

Yes. They can. But so can a sorcerer with quicken. Has more spells. And more importantly, more cantrips. The sorcerer can do this before EK too

[Specter]

Yes. They can. But so can a sorcerer with quicken. Has more spells. And more importantly, more cantrips. The sorcerer can do this before EK too

Sorcerer spends two sorcery points to do something weak (with cantrips, of course). No comparison, really.

[Corran]

Tough enough for melee, uses cha for attacks, extra attack, quickened casting, self-healing, medium armor, all weapons, shields. Need wis/cha 13 to multiclass and stack the con for toughness. Fully online at sor4/war5/clr1, with all the most useful cantrips and the best rp ones.

Thoughts?
My first thought is that it is one of these builds that look vastly better in paper than they will be in actual play. But if you are commited into having all these cantrips and it seems like something you wanna try out, sure, go for it.

You might want to look into putting your cantrips to some good use. I am sure I had seen one thread talking about using cantrips creatively (though my quick search didnt help me find it), so you might want to look into that.

[cZak]

I like this thought experiment
Developing a Guide of cantrips based on character class & role would be interesting.
But, sweet-baby-kittens... how many cantrips are there?

Cantrips are a great resource in that they scale & are unlimited.
Riders on some make nice opportunities in the right circumstances.

Having 6+ cantrips would be useful. You'd have more 'special bullets' for a greater number of circumstances.

Mayhap break down what circumstances you're looking to cover; Utility, Control, Damage

[Armored Walrus]

I think it would be awesome to have that many at-will magical options, and the character seems playable besides. I may use this ;)

[Mjolnirbear]

Sorcerer spends two sorcery points to do something weak (with cantrips, of course). No comparison, really.

Attack-attack-cantrip is something you can do often and is open to amazing creativity. I mean you could just gfb or Eb to add to damage... Or You could mold a small wall of earth and make him trip on it. Next turn lightning lure someone attacking your mage and then beat his ass in punishment. Snuff that light source and attack in the darkness. Disarm someone and mage hand it away.

Cantrips have the potential for amazing creativity. I've used Shape Water for 'helmets' to avoid smoke inhalation and to freeze a door closed and to make a mold for a key. I've used mold earth to dig escape tunnels and minor illusion for raven 'spies' that suddenly have teeth and glowing purple eyes. I want as many tools for creativity as I can get.

EK and its 2 whole cantrips? Yet another GFB clone. So exciting.

[Mjolnirbear]

My first thought is that it is one of these builds that look vastly better in paper than they will be in actual play. But if you are commited into having all these cantrips and it seems like something you wanna try out, sure, go for it.

You might want to look into putting your cantrips to some good use. I am sure I had seen one thread talking about using cantrips creatively (though my quick search didnt help me find it), so you might want to look into that.

You're likely right. I'm trying for something that can at least pull its weight in combat.

And I got the creative uses part covered. I've read all those threads hehe

[Mjolnirbear]

I like this thought experiment
Developing a Guide of cantrips based on character class & role would be interesting.
But, sweet-baby-kittens... how many cantrips are there?

Cantrips are a great resource in that they scale & are unlimited.
Riders on some make nice opportunities in the right circumstances.

Having 6+ cantrips would be useful. You'd have more 'special bullets' for a greater number of circumstances.

Mayhap break down what circumstances you're looking to cover; Utility, Control, Damage

There are like 39 in total based on someone's comment in the original thread.

Damage is the most boring option. If that's all I wanted I could just spam agonising EB. Utility yes. Control yes. Creativity absolutely.

[Tanarii]

Huh... don't you mean Eldritch Knight?thats what I thought this thread was going to be about too. :smallconfused:
EK 7 / Wiz 4 / AT 3

Cantrips:
2 @ 3rd
5 @ 8th
6 @ 11th
8 @ 14th

Go wherever you want from there I guess. But given the OP wants 15 total Cantrips, he's almost certainly on the right track going Cha for Bard/Warlock/Sorcerer.

[Mjolnirbear]

I think it would be awesome to have that many at-will magical options, and the character seems playable besides. I may use this ;)

With hex blade, it means not AL legal, but it makes it the most kickass in my opinion: need just cha and con. I don't like the flavour of the patron to be honest, and long considered raven Queen, archfey or GOO. It would work though. For sorcerer I'd go storm for tons of aoe damage.

It's a sorlock. Two of the most multiclassable classes. The most suboptimal choice is the level of cleric and the feat; if you've had enough cantrips for your taste by that point you could skip it.

[Mjolnirbear]

thats what I thought this thread was going to be about too. :smallconfused:
EK 7 / Wiz 4 / AT 3

Cantrips:
2 @ 3rd
5 @ 8th
6 @ 11th
8 @ 14th

Go wherever you want from there I guess. But given the OP wants 15 total Cantrips, he's almost certainly on the right track going Cha for Bard/Warlock/Sorcerer.

You could... This would work too. No more MAD than my sorlock. Could do decent damage with sneak attack and AT mage hand is versatile AF. But it comes online very late, and simply isn't as magical. And 8 cantrips just ain't enough.

[Desteplo]

Attack-attack-cantrip is something you can do often and is open to amazing creativity. I mean you could just gfb or Eb to add to damage... Or You could mold a small wall of earth and make him trip on it. Next turn lightning lure someone attacking your mage and then beat his ass in punishment. Snuff that light source and attack in the darkness. Disarm someone and mage hand it away.

Cantrips have the potential for amazing creativity. I've used Shape Water for 'helmets' to avoid smoke inhalation and to freeze a door closed and to make a mold for a key. I've used mold earth to dig escape tunnels and minor illusion for raven 'spies' that suddenly have teeth and glowing purple eyes. I want as many tools for creativity as I can get.

EK and its 2 whole cantrips? Yet another GFB clone. So exciting.

And two/three ASI which the build is lacking

-but the point is if you are going for major utility, spending all your sorcery points on that combo depletes a valuable resource that shouldn't be restricted.

-that's the whole point of this build is you aren't using any resources. Relying on short rests to recharge is counterproductive to the build

-eldritch strike adds to the longevity

-getting 2 or 3 ASI from 7-8 lvls i. Fighter + armor gives great combat potential. Also can use those ASI for quicker feats getting magic initiate and spell sniper.

-it's not the full caster that you are thinking but it's still a good option for an armored cantrip user. Slightly less cantrips but a lot of them are repeats anyway

[Tanarii]

You could... This would work too. No more MAD than my sorlock. Could do decent damage with sneak attack and AT mage hand is versatile AF. But it comes online very late, and simply isn't as magical. And 8 cantrips just ain't enough.
Agreed. It's not a build to come online. It's a fairly standard character designed to grow in a specific direction as you level. Different conceptual ground.

And if 8 isn't enough for your purposes, you're pretty much stuck with Cha because you need Pact of the Tome and Sorcerer to get anywhere near that amount.

[Citan]

With hex blade, it means not AL legal, but it makes it the most kickass in my opinion: need just cha and con. I don't like the flavour of the patron to be honest, and long considered raven Queen, archfey or GOO. It would work though. For sorcerer I'd go storm for tons of aoe damage.

It's a sorlock. Two of the most multiclassable classes. The most suboptimal choice is the level of cleric and the feat; if you've had enough cantrips for your taste by that point you could skip it.
Honestly you could do nearly as well on WIS-based classes.
After all, you would need good WIS anyways and there are not that many cantrips of yours that actually rely on stat, so it would not be that difficult to get a 13-14 in CHA. More over you could start as a Life/War/Tempest Cleric to get much better armor to boot.
And that would make a perfectly valid AL character.
Let's see that list again: Eldritch Blast (Warlock), Friends, GFB, Guidance (Cleric), Mage Hand, Mending, Minor Illusion, Mold Earth, Produce Flame (Druid), Shape Water, Toll the Dead, and one each from the overlap groups.
Arcane Domain could take care of using weapon cantrips with the best casting modifier. Beyond that, Cleric 1 (3) + Land Druid 2 (3) + Sorcerer 1 (4) + Tome Warlock 3 (2+3) already give you 15 cantrips.
And if you wanted to use offensive cantrips that don't rely on WIS, you can just use Bless for now and bump that stat later.

Another option is to just keep your initial idea but pick Shillelagh as one of your cantrips and pick one PHB Patrons for Warlock (I think GOO would be really fitting, I think telepathy could be very useful in the hands -or rather, mind XD- of someone creative like you).

Honestly though, for such a build, I think a normal human could be a very viable option for you: you start a bit subpar (14 everywhere) but can be extremely useful overall by cumulating several 2-level dips: Bard 2 (Jack of All Trades), Evoker Wizard 2 (no friendlyfire) or Diviner (rerolls) would bring yet other bunches of cantrips along with useful other things. And you don't even need Magic Initiate anymore strictly speaking so you can instead bump your attack stat of choice. :)
So you can start as you thought or differently you will end with all your cantrips probably sooner. ^^

[Mjolnirbear]

Honestly you could do nearly as well on WIS-based classes.
After all, you would need good WIS anyways and there are not that many cantrips of yours that actually rely on stat, so it would not be that difficult to get a 13-14 in CHA. More over you could start as a Life/War/Tempest Cleric to get much better armor to boot.
And that would make a perfectly valid AL character.
Let's see that list again: Eldritch Blast (Warlock), Friends, GFB, Guidance (Cleric), Mage Hand, Mending, Minor Illusion, Mold Earth, Produce Flame (Druid), Shape Water, Toll the Dead, and one each from the overlap groups.
Arcane Domain could take care of using weapon cantrips with the best casting modifier. Beyond that, Cleric 1 (3) + Land Druid 2 (3) + Sorcerer 1 (4) + Tome Warlock 3 (2+3) already give you 15 cantrips.
And if you wanted to use offensive cantrips that don't rely on WIS, you can just use Bless for now and bump that stat later.

Another option is to just keep your initial idea but pick Shillelagh as one of your cantrips and pick one PHB Patrons for Warlock (I think GOO would be really fitting, I think telepathy could be very useful in the hands -or rather, mind XD- of someone creative like you).

Honestly though, for such a build, I think a normal human could be a very viable option for you: you start a bit subpar (14 everywhere) but can be extremely useful overall by cumulating several 2-level dips: Bard 2 (Jack of All Trades), Evoker Wizard 2 (no friendlyfire) or Diviner (rerolls) would bring yet other bunches of cantrips along with useful other things. And you don't even need Magic Initiate anymore strictly speaking so you can instead bump your attack stat of choice. :)
So you can start as you thought or differently you will end with all your cantrips probably sooner. ^^

Actually that's a really cool idea. Jack of all trades characters are super fun, and being spread thin with multiclassing means less likely to steal the show. And the wisdom caster version is a lot tougher; more AC, more HP.

Three workable concepts for cantrip caster. Love it.

[Mjolnirbear]

And two/three ASI which the build is lacking

-but the point is if you are going for major utility, spending all your sorcery points on that combo depletes a valuable resource that shouldn't be restricted.

-that's the whole point of this build is you aren't using any resources. Relying on short rests to recharge is counterproductive to the build

-eldritch strike adds to the longevity

-getting 2 or 3 ASI from 7-8 lvls i. Fighter + armor gives great combat potential. Also can use those ASI for quicker feats getting magic initiate and spell sniper.

-it's not the full caster that you are thinking but it's still a good option for an armored cantrip user. Slightly less cantrips but a lot of them are repeats anyway

You'd only lose one ASI, to the cleric dip. Fighter ASIs are a definite bonus to your build. And yes, EK 7 can do at-will all day long what my sorlock needs spell points for.

To be honest, I hate EKs. They're fighters with a magic trick or two, not real casters. As fighters-with-a-trick they're great, don't get me wrong; but they're not casters in any noteworthy sense. What you're saying is true, but it's not magical enough for me. And its the cantrip fighter everyone thinks of first... It hardly breaks any molds.

I apologise, though. The name of the thread doesn't really describe best what i was trying to achieve.

[Vaz]

Hexblade Tomelock 3 (perhaps Book of Vile Darkness or Exalted Deeds), with a Genasi or vHuman Magic Initiate gives you 7 Cantrips, and lets you add Charisma to damage on EB, Repelling Blast and Grasp of Hadar which is now available to all.

[Mjolnirbear]

Hexblade Tomelock 3 (perhaps Book of Vile Darkness or Exalted Deeds), with a Genasi or vHuman Magic Initiate gives you 7 Cantrips, and lets you add Charisma to damage on EB, Repelling Blast and Grasp of Hadar which is now available to all.

Tome lock gives you more cantrips, faster, no doubt at all. I only went blade for extra attack. Add sorcerer and you could double-spam agonising EB until all the things died.

[cZak]

I'd guess the best way to develop would be with what the other party members are looking to play

- A Battle master with Sentinel/ Cantrip Master w Lightning lure.

- Archery Underdark ranger/ Cantrip w Frost ray or Eldritch blast w Knockback

- Striker Rogue/ Minor Illusion to create cover to strike from to provide sneak attack


I think extra attack would not be a concern
I'd be looking for opportunities to buff allies/ inconvenience enemies.
A good range damage cantrip; Eldritch blast, Firebolt, etc...
And maybe a close up cantrip just in case; Shocking grasp (Adv on attacks vs metal using enemies), etc...

Then some good utility stuff for in/out of combat; Message, Minor Illusion, etc...

[Stealthscout]

My first thought is that it is one of these builds that look vastly better in paper than they will be in actual play.
...
I am sure I had seen one thread talking about using cantrips creatively (though my quick search didnt help me find it), so you might want to look into that.

Check out my signature for some links on creative cantrips. I second the idea that a cantrip focused fighter is not likely to survive well in actual play. The damage you can do is way too low to make it worthwhile.

[Mjolnirbear]

You are be right but it will be fun to try.

I'm not actually certain you are right, though. At level six, doing longsword 1d8+3 plus GFB 1d8+3+1d8+1d8+3 isn't bad. Or 1d8+3 and EB for 2d10+6. Add 1d8+3 for extra attack next level

At level 11, 1d8+4+1d8+4 attack plus GFB 5d8+8 is nothing to sneeze at. And instead of fighter options like GWM and Shield Master you get lightning lure and thunderclap.

How long can you do this for? That's the limiting factor. At level 11 (sorc 6) you have 7 sorcery points. Each short rest you can get 6 more. And burning all your sorcerer slots nets you 19. 32 points is 16 uses of quicken assuming one short rest only. Each additional short rest is 3 more quickens. Assuming the traditional six-fights-per-day thing you're looking at less than three quickens per fight. Which makes it a pretty amazing Nova but the EK can do this all day long. Of course she only gets one of her attacks when she cantrips. And the sorlock can keep cantripping without spell slots to burn. I'd say that's a wash, at-will wise. The EK still has better HP, better AC, has the ASIs for the extra fighter goodies, and at this point even has more spells.


But you have other options with that quicken. Attack and and fireball. Attack and Lightning Lure. Attack and sleep. Attack and Mordankainens Faithful Hound. Options unavailable to the EK until level 18.

You also have warlock smite if you're using UA. A level 2 slot is the same as one quicken, so 4d8 compared to GFB, which depends on character level.

You have to do a bit of contortioning to use this sorlock. In many respects the EK does something similar and far more easily. But, as always when comparing casters and fighters, the caster has far more options. Social options. Exploration options. Combat options.

You could skip Blade; just attack with cantrips. It would be similar, but with less damage and far more sustainability while also keeping all the casting options. You'd only dip War3 or War4 if you don't need or want extra attack.

Believe it or not, sacrificing all the spell slots appeals to me a great deal. I want to see just what I can manage with all the cantrips and attacking.

[coolAlias]

If I'm not mistaken, wouldn't you still need a good Wisdom score for any cantrips gained from Cleric/Druid, and good Int for any from Wizard? Neither multi-classing nor the Magic Initiate feat allow you to use a different class spellcasting stat for the spells gained from another class.

[Citan]

If I'm not mistaken, wouldn't you still need a good Wisdom score for any cantrips gained from Cleric/Druid, and good Int for any from Wizard? Neither multi-classing nor the Magic Initiate feat allow you to use a different class spellcasting stat for the spells gained from another class.
Depends.
Eldricht Blast: unique cantrip with up to 4 attacks: you may attempt it even with CHA as low as 16 at end, although you will miss quite a few times, at least you will deal SOME damage.
Booming Blade / Green Flame Blade: they depend on the stat used for weapon attack, so you can safely use them: you will just deal lesser damage overall.
All other offensive cantrips (unless I missed another special one): yes, you'd better have a good attack stat because it's all or nothing.

>>> CHA/INT gish that are fine with using weapon cantrips only can safely dump their stat. In all other cases, you generally want at least a starting 16 (even Eldricht Blast in fact, since additional rays come much later) unless you have something else to buff your to-hit (Bless or a way to gain advantage, Wild Magic/Diviner, Evoker that ensures some damage whatever happens).

[coolAlias]

Yeah, you're right. Looking over the cantrips the OP is choosing I see that not many involve attack rolls or saving throws; those that do are mostly based on Cha.

For some reason I was still thinking of the 'get all the cantrips' thread and how you would end up with a bunch of attack cantrips keyed off of different stats.