So wait, is Bandana a woman?

[CrackedChair]

I noticed that he/she has a bean shaped body which is usually given to female characters, but is it true that he/she is a woman? I mean he/she has looks that did have me wondering, much like V.

[MReav]

Bandana is a woman. Haley has a sisterly relationship with her as shown here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0959.html).

She's a bit less bustier than other female characters, but that's about it.

[CrackedChair]

Oh, ok.

I also can't help but notice she also said something about an ex, having clothes that fitted Haley. Does this mean that Bandana is er, into women more than men?

[Grey Watcher]

Oh, ok.

I also can't help but notice she also said something about an ex, having clothes that fitted Haley. Does this mean that Bandana is er, into women more than men?

Yup. And, more specifically, isn't into men at all, in that capacity. (There was considerable... discussion surrounding that particular installment.)

[MReav]

Oh, ok.

I also can't help but notice she also said something about an ex, having clothes that fitted Haley. Does this mean that Bandana is er, into women more than men?

Yes.

It's not like there hasn't been LGBTQ+ representation in OOTS. There was that gay guard back in Cliffport guarding Elan/"Nale", Haley's had a few ribs about her latent bisexuality, and V is androgynous.

Hell, there are a few non-traditional sexualities, like that druid's wife in the Oracle's prediction, Tsukiko, and every sorcerer's ancestor.

There's the whole spectrum on display, though that second bit is probably more akin to a laser beam.

[Peelee]

Hell, there are a few non-traditional sexualities, like that druid's wife in the Oracle's prediction, Tsukiko, and every sorcerer's ancestor.

The Draketooth clan =/= every sorcerer.

[MReav]

The Draketooth clan =/= every sorcerer.

Hey, I'm using WOTC 3rd edition DND lore when making that claim.

At most, my claim can be modified to read "most sorcerers".

[Giggling Ghast]

She's a touch butch, which is fitting for a lesbian character. (Why are we tiptoeing around this?)

[Darth Paul]

She's a touch butch, which is fitting for a lesbian character. (Why are we tiptoeing around this?)

Perhaps for some. Not for all. I have only personal life anecdotal evidence to back that up, but nevertheless.

And with that I bow out of this thread.

[Cizak]

LGBTIA+ themes aren't taboo, forbidden, unacceptable or any other reason why you are dancing around it. You can, and should, say someone is gay.

[CrackedChair]

LGBTIA+ themes aren't taboo, forbidden, unacceptable or any other reason why you are dancing around it. You can, and should, say someone is gay.

Understood. I erm, just wasn't too sure how to bring it up without doing something to offend anybody. Sorry.

[Cizak]

Understood. I erm, just wasn't too sure how to bring it up without doing something to offend anybody. Sorry.

It's okay. My take on it is, if someone gets offended by a "is this character gay" question, that's their problem and not yours. Especially when the character in question has had a partner of the same sex.

[CrackedChair]

It's okay. My take on it is, if someone gets offended by a "is this character gay" question, that's their problem and not yours. Especially when the character in question has had a partner of the same sex.

Understood, thanks.

[Vinyadan]

She was also born of a black and white couple, the first such human character in OotS I can think of. Roy's family is all black, Haley's and Elan's all white, and I think that's all relevant families. Jiminy may have been a precursor, but it's hard to tell.

So the power of representativeness is strong in this one.

[Quebbster]

I would have thought it would have been obvious when it was revealed that Bandana's birth name is Beatrix (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1066.html), which is a very typical female name.
But yes, there are plenty of women with more curves in the comic...

[DataNinja]

I would have thought it would have been obvious when it was revealed that Bandana's birth name is Beatrix (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1066.html), which is a very typical female name.

I mean, it was even explicitly stated in 943 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0943.html), 6th panel. "I've left Bandana in command of the Mechane for a while, but I've given her orders to take you wherever you need to go." (Emphasis mine.)

(Although, at that time, she was more of a 'random NPC', so I can understand not paying an enormous amount of attention. :smalltongue:)

[Grey Watcher]

I would have thought it would have been obvious when it was revealed that Bandana's birth name is Beatrix (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1066.html), which is a very typical female name.
But yes, there are plenty of women with more curves in the comic...

I'll admit, until I looked at the comic again today, I had completely forgotten that her birth name had even been mentioned, much less what it was.

But yes, Bandana's a lesbian. Or a gay woman, since there's no such place in OOTS-World as Lesbos for a Sappho-or-Sappho-like person to create that association.

[Quebbster]

Bandana's presumed sexual orientation was also under discussion when she pointed out she never really felt the need for a wand (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0970.html).
(I say presumed because I don't believe it has been mentioned whether she is only interested in women).

[2D8HP]

I mean, it was even explicitly stated in 943 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0943.html), 6th panel. "I've left Bandana in command of the Mechane for a while, but I've given her orders to take you wherever you need to go." (Emphasis mine.)

(Although, at that time, she was more of a 'random NPC', so I can understand not paying an enormous amount of attention. :smalltongue:)


Thanks for this!

I don't remember ever thinking Bandana as other than female, but (as has been pointed out) since she's "bean shaped" I couldn't remember why.

Same with Andi, which makes me wonder, how does Rich suggest so much with blobs and sticks?

I actually find the drawings quite expressive, but why?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Rich is very talented.

[KillianHawkeye]

I dunno how anybody could doubt Bandana's a woman. I would say the curve of her bust line was a pretty dead give away.......... :smallconfused:

[DeliaP]

Bandana's presumed sexual orientation was also under discussion when she pointed out she never really felt the need for a wand (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0970.html).


Ooohhh... duh, I totally missed that one! :smallsmile:

[Emanick]

I dunno how anybody could doubt Bandana's a woman. I would say the curve of her bust line was a pretty dead give away.......... :smallconfused:

To be fair, I've missed that with a couple of other minor female characters, like the Azure City swordsmith. It's either a totally conceivable mistake or evidence that I'm incredibly foolish.

Then again, Bandana is a major enough character that I remain very surprised that anyone could have taken this long to realize her gender.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Then again, Bandana is a major enough character that I remain very surprised that anyone could have taken this long to realize her gender.

It's not that hard to understand in this particular case:
1) Character is purposely designed with a slim body type, making her harder to visually identify
2) Character is referred to with an alias which is neither male nor female (i.e. she's not e.g. "The Pirate Queen", just "Bandana")
3) Character is gynosexual, which would more often than not indicate it is male (i.e. "most characters with girlfriends are guys"*).

I've been trying to remember what told me she was a woman, but as far as I can recall I never had any problems identifying her as such.

Grey Wolf

*This kind of assumption has plenty of ramifications into th equal representation and public expectations and so on, but whatever your position on what it means for these topics, it is unavoidable that, at this time, the statement is broadly true.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Maybe you just read the text, where she's explicitly addressed as 'her' and 'she'.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Maybe you just read the text, where she's explicitly addressed as 'her' and 'she'.

Possibly, but pronouns are (1) quite indistinct in English (at least when compared to my own language) and therefore I tend to miss them (and misuse them - just yesterday I managed to refer to my own cub by the wrong one), and (2) they are more "filler" than "information-sensitive" when it comes to scan-reading, so they are in general easy to miss when not focusing completely on the text, which I tend not to do with comics, since I'm taking in the picture as I read the words.

I mean, for all I know that is what clued me subconsciously, but if so, I can't recall it.

GW

[Rogar Demonblud]

That would go with the word 'subconsciously', yes. :smallbiggrin:

[Darth Paul]

To be fair, I've missed that with a couple of other minor female characters, like the Azure City swordsmith.
She was a "she"?

Missed that completely. Must be the apron. I also didn't realize her hairstyle was a bun.... OK, it's a fair cop, I was reading the dialogue and not paying attention to the art.

[Quebbster]

Moral of this thread: If you don't show cleavage, people might assume you are a man. Bandana, the swordsmith, Andi, V... The list can probably go on a bit.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Moral of this thread: If you don't show cleavage, people might assume you are a man. Bandana, the swordsmith, Andi, V... The list can probably go on a bit.

Haley... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html)

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

Haley... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html)

Grey Wolf

Yeah, I always felt that fell flat. Short hair aside, Haley was still very visibly female.

[dtilque]

Possibly, but pronouns are (1) quite indistinct in English (at least when compared to my own language) and therefore I tend to miss them (and misuse them - just yesterday I managed to refer to my own cub by the wrong one), and (2) they are more "filler" than "information-sensitive" when it comes to scan-reading, so they are in general easy to miss when not focusing completely on the text, which I tend not to do with comics, since I'm taking in the picture as I read the words.

So you're like V (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html) in that you usually don't pay attention to pronouns?

[JohanOfKitten]

It's not that hard to understand in this particular case:
1) Character is purposely designed with a slim body type, making her harder to visually identify
2) Character is referred to with an alias which is neither male nor female (i.e. she's not e.g. "The Pirate Queen", just "Bandana")
3) Character is gynosexual, which would more often than not indicate it is male (i.e. "most characters with girlfriends are guys"*).

I've been trying to remember what told me she was a woman, but as far as I can recall I never had any problems identifying her as such.

Grey Wolf

*This kind of assumption has plenty of ramifications into th equal representation and public expectations and so on, but whatever your position on what it means for these topics, it is unavoidable that, at this time, the statement is broadly true.
In the very same panel we learn Bandana sexual preference, Haley strongly implied that she thought the female armor was Bandana's.
Why would Haley think that if Bandana wasn't a female?

(source : http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0959.html )

[Knaight]

Yeah, I always felt that fell flat. Short hair aside, Haley was still very visibly female.

So is Bandana, and yet we have this thread.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

In the very same panel we learn Bandana sexual preference, Haley strongly implied that she thought the female armor was Bandana's.
Why would Haley think that if Bandana wasn't a female?

(source : http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0959.html )

Because it was in her closet? I mean the confusion works for both "B is male" and "B is female". Haley is surprised she fits so well in an armour designed for a {man | small-breasted woman} and B clarifies it was never hers to wear, but her ("his") girlfriend's. No matter what assumption you have made going into the comic regarding B's sex, the conversation still fits both.

GW

[Keltest]

So is Bandana, and yet we have this thread.

bandana wears much bulkier clothing and her female body shape is less pronounced because of it. Furthermore, her earlier appearances all had her in a smaller panel, standing at the wheel. If you didn't notice it then, I can see how an assumption could form that would cause you to not look at her that closely to see for sure.

[Kish]

You've got an ironic screen name.

[Gnoman]

This is pretty clearly a troll account. I suggest we not feed it.

[2D8HP]

This is pretty clearly a....


Thank you for the advice, I needed it!

[littlebum2002]

I would have thought it would have been obvious when it was revealed that Bandana's birth name is Beatrix (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1066.html), which is a very typical female name.
But yes, there are plenty of women with more curves in the comic...

I didn't realize until now that Beatrix was actually a real name. The only Beatrixes I know of are Secundus, Lestrange and Kiddo, which are all fictional characters.

[Quebbster]

I didn't realize until now that Beatrix was actually a real name. The only Beatrixes I know of are Secundus, Lestrange and Kiddo, which are all fictional characters.

Queen Beatrix of the Netherlands and Beatrix Potter are most certainly not fictional characters. Then again, I mostly know the Queen since she got name dropped in an old Simpsons episode... And Potter because of her fictional characters...

[Peelee]

I didn't realize until now that Beatrix was actually a real name. The only Beatrixes I know of are Secundus, Lestrange and Kiddo, which are all fictional characters.

No Potter?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

No Potter?

Beatrix Lestrange is from Harry Potter.

ETA: Unless you literally meant Beatrix Potter, who I understand is well-known, but I have never read anything by her, so presumably neither did Littlebum.

GW

[2D8HP]

...Beatrix Potter...



...Beatrix Potter...


I had her books as a child (and so does my son), but from an episode of

Rick Steve's Europe (https://m.youtube.com/user/RickSteves)

I learned that there's a

http://www.hop-skip-jump.com/wp-content/uploads/Peter-Rabbit-2013-credit-photograper-Steve-Barber-350x350.jpg

theme park (http://www.hop-skip-jump.com/)

based on her books.

[Vinyadan]

Queen Beatrix of the Netherlands and Beatrix Potter are most certainly not fictional characters.

Every time a child says, 'I don't believe in Beatrixes', there is a little Queen somewhere in the Netherlands that falls dead. Do you believe in Beatrixes? If you believe, clap your hands! Don't let Queen Beatrix die!

[2D8HP]

...If you believe, clap your hands! Don't let Queen Beatrix die!

http://www.z31.net/images10/clapping-gif16.gif

[littlebum2002]

Queen Beatrix of the Netherlands and Beatrix Potter are most certainly not fictional characters. Then again, I mostly know the Queen since she got name dropped in an old Simpsons episode... And Potter because of her fictional characters...


No Potter?

*Googles that name right quick

OOOH, I DO remember than name now! Wow that is from a long time ago...

I feel incredibly American that there was a Queen who reigned for 33 years and only abdicated 4 years ago and I had never heard of her.

[Alcore]

She was a "she"?

Missed that completely. Must be the apron. I also didn't realize her hairstyle was a bun.... OK, it's a fair cop, I was reading the dialogue and not paying attention to the art.

Not quite....

Ōetsu Nimaiya, famous sword smith, ties his hair in a bun too. Sword smiths often deal with fire and often take measures to prevent burning.

[2D8HP]

Moral of this thread: If you don't show cleavage, people might assume you are a man. Bandana, the swordsmith, Andi, V... The list can probably go on a bit.


It's easier to tell when Andi/Andromeda isn't wearing a heavy coat:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/images/aafoow3rsdf03kdpqwdeo961.png

[littlebum2002]

Moral of this thread: If you don't show cleavage, people might assume you are a man. Bandana, the swordsmith, Andi, V... The list can probably go on a bit.

I mean, it's a stick figure comic. It isn't exactly clear who is what. I thought Miko was a man at first due to her square torso.

[Koo Rehtorb]

Nah she's a fictional character.

[2D8HP]

I find it curious that no one has posted that "I didn't know [character] was a man", instead.of, "I didn't know [character] was a women."

Why?

While I'm curious, since it's more fun this way, I hope that Inkyrius and Vaarsuvius, who have no definite pro-nouns stay that way!

[SaintRidley]

I didn't realize until now that Beatrix was actually a real name. The only Beatrixes I know of are Secundus, Lestrange and Kiddo, which are all fictional characters.




Beatrix Lestrange is from Harry Potter.

ETA: Unless you literally meant Beatrix Potter, who I understand is well-known, but I have never read anything by her, so presumably neither did Littlebum.

GW

There is no Beatrix Lestrange. There's a Bellatrix Lestrange, whose name comes from the third brightest star in the Orion constellation.

[littlebum2002]

There is no Beatrix Lestrange. There's a Bellatrix Lestrange, whose name comes from the third brightest star in the Orion constellation.

Ugh, total rookie mistake.

[Vinyadan]

It's easier to tell when Andi/Andromeda isn't wearing a heavy coat:



In general you can use chin size and eye height relative to the head circle. Which is why V is now ambiguous, and, back then, was imho drawn like a male.

[Jormengand]

But yes, Bandana's a lesbian. Or a gay woman, since there's no such place in OOTS-World as Lesbos for a Sappho-or-Sappho-like person to create that association.

Though since the characters are probably all actually speaking in Common most of the time anyway, it doesn't really matter which word you use since neither of them has any more right to exist in-setting than the other.

[littlebum2002]

I'll admit, until I looked at the comic again today, I had completely forgotten that her birth name had even been mentioned, much less what it was.

But yes, Bandana's a lesbian. Or a gay woman, since there's no such place in OOTS-World as Lesbos for a Sappho-or-Sappho-like person to create that association.


Though since the characters are probably all actually speaking in Common most of the time anyway, it doesn't really matter which word you use since neither of them has any more right to exist in-setting than the other.

Relevant XKCD (https://xkcd.com/890/)

[Riftwolf]

In a related note, there's a book called 'Breed' by an author i once met, which is specifically written to leave the main character gender neutral. People who reviewed it imposed their own ideas as to what gender the character was; when i first heard it, I assumed the character was female, but others heard it as a male character.
I can't remember thinking of Bandana as non-female, even before her part got bigger.

[Vinyadan]

I can't remember thinking of Bandana as non-female, even before her part got bigger.

I have a dirty mind :smallbiggrin:

[Riftwolf]

I have a dirty mind :smallbiggrin:

Wow less than fifteen minutes gotta be a new record for my word choice going against me :p

[archon_huskie]

Second to last panel of http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0959.html

When Haley speaks of historically speaking, she is referring to her relationship with other female characters.

Namely Miko, Sabine, Crystal, the Druid's bird, and Tuskio were the murdering while hurling offensively gender charged insults kind.

Niu and Bandana are the friendly big sisters kind.

[Psyren]

Bandana's presumed sexual orientation was also under discussion when she pointed out she never really felt the need for a wand (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0970.html).

That... was a very subtle entendre. Rich, you sly devil.

[Themrys]

I find it curious that no one has posted that "I didn't know [character] was a man", instead.of, "I didn't know [character] was a women."

Why?



Because there hasn't been a stay-at-home spouse who wears impractical clothes and does all the childcare and is male. That'd probably do the trick. (Inky might get this, but since we don't know Inky's sex, and will never know it, that can't happen)

Some people apparently have problems believing that Julio would choose to appoint a female crewmember captain.

(When the Hunger Games movies came out some people complained that cute little girl character Rue was portrayed by a black girl, as they were totally convinced she must be a white, blonde girl. She's black in the novel. Described as dark-skinned, I think. Definitely not white. But people managed to read over that and moreover convince themselves she had been stated to be white.)

I wonder whether this is a troll because Bandana is really very obviously female and the comic is a visual medium, so it is not as easy as missing a couple of words ... but prejudice can skew people's perceptions a lot.

(Who knows, perhaps someone will now be suprised that we don't know Inky's sex. :smallwink:)

[2D8HP]

....

(Who knows, perhaps someone will now be suprised that we don't know Inky's sex. :smallwink:)


OF COURSE WE KNOW INKY'S SEX!!!!

It's the same as Pat's and Chris' s..

[Kish]

Because there hasn't been a stay-at-home spouse who wears impractical clothes and does all the childcare and is male. That'd probably do the trick. (Inky might get this, but since we don't know Inky's sex, and will never know it, that can't happen)
Some people have asserted, with apparent seriousness, that based on Inkyrius being a stay-at-home spouse it's obvious that Inkyrius is female and Vaarsuvius is male. (I won't unpack all the assumptions there.)


Some people apparently have problems believing that Julio would choose to appoint a female crewmember captain.

(When the Hunger Games movies came out some people complained that cute little girl character Rue was portrayed by a black girl, as they were totally convinced she must be a white, blonde girl. She's black in the novel. Described as dark-skinned, I think. Definitely not white.
She is described as dark-skinned. All the people of her District are consistently described in a way that makes it clear they're what would have been called African-Americans, back when Panem was called America.

Not only that, Katniss, described as "olive-skinned," who doesn't speak in terms of races but does observe that the group of people her mother came from (pale and blond-haired, like her sister Prim) and the group of people her father came from (darker-skinned and black-haired) look consistently different and rarely intermarry, probably shouldn't actually have a white actor.

But Katniss doesn't spell out races and she does say Rue reminds her of Prim, and a horrendous number of people are willing to announce all over the Internet either 1) that they're sufficiently attached to white as default to feel enraged betrayal when a character they'd decided was white isn't or 2) that they find the idea of anyone thinking that black girl reminds me of my white sister incomprehensible and horrifying.

[Goblin_Priest]

Some people have asserted, with apparent seriousness, that based on Inkyrius being a stay-at-home spouse it's obvious that Inkyrius is female and Vaarsuvius is male. (I won't unpack all the assumptions there.)


There are multiple occurrences of V being described as "him" by NPCs, particularly around that plotline if I remember correctly. I don't recall NPCs calling V "her". Though this isn't really related to your comment.

Though maybe V and Ink are a same-gendered couple!

[Keltest]

There are multiple occurrences of V being described as "him" by NPCs, particularly around that plotline if I remember correctly. I don't recall NPCs calling V "her". Though this isn't really related to your comment.

Though maybe V and Ink are a same-gendered couple!

I suspect the more frequent occurrence of masculine identifiers is more of a result of their increasing use as gender-neutral identifiers than V's actual masculinity.

[SaintRidley]

There are multiple occurrences of V being described as "him" by NPCs, particularly around that plotline if I remember correctly. I don't recall NPCs calling V "her". Though this isn't really related to your comment.

Though maybe V and Ink are a same-gendered couple!

Sabine in 385 calls V "sister" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0385.html). Tarquin, true to form, prefers to refer to V as "it" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0935.html).

[Draconi Redfir]

I'm happily in the "V is female, Inky is male, kids are maybe one of each or both female" camp myself.

[B. Dandelion]

Sabine in 385 calls V "sister" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0385.html). Tarquin, true to form, prefers to refer to V as "it" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0935.html).

Also the female shopkeeper in 135 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0135.html) ("she might have a point"), and Nale in 252 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0252.html) ("the elf chick").

As to the rest of the topic, there are some interesting articles to be found in doing a search for "male as default". There often is this background, largely unexamined assumption that the default state of humanity is male, with female as a specific deviation from the norm. So if a character isn't given obvious sexual characteristics (or a bow on her head (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TertiarySexualCharacteristics)), often the audience will simply assume male.

[Cazero]

I wonder whether this is a troll because Bandana is really very obviously female and the comic is a visual medium, so it is not as easy as missing a couple of words ... but prejudice can skew people's perceptions a lot.
This is a stick figure comic. Your very obvious tells are easily missed, especialy if the reader isn't actively trying to assert a sex to every character.


There are multiple occurrences of V being described as "him" by NPCs, particularly around that plotline if I remember correctly. I don't recall NPCs calling V "her". Though this isn't really related to your comment.
I clearly remember both. Each character seem to have their own consistent (mis)characterisation of V's gender.

[137beth]

There are multiple occurrences of V being described as "him" by NPCs, particularly around that plotline if I remember correctly. I don't recall NPCs calling V "her". Though this isn't really related to your comment.

Though maybe V and Ink are a same-gendered couple!
In addition to the examples already pointed out, Tsukiko asks "who is that and why is she fighting Xykon when she looks like she should be asking for a team-up? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html)"

[Themrys]

Though maybe V and Ink are a same-gendered couple!

Not maybe. We know they are a same-gender couple. Or perhaps a genderless couple. Their language does not do grammatical gender and their culture does not do gender stereotypes, apparently, so we can safely assume that they both have the same gender, which is no gender at all.

They may or may not be a same sex couple. Since it has been stated that the children are adopted, we will never know.

[Reathin]

I'm happily in the "V is female, Inky is male, kids are maybe one of each or both female" camp myself.

Pretty much my take on it (though to be truthful, I never really considered their children beyond the point that they're adopted and therefore not super-relevant to V's gender in a biological sense).

Funny thing though, while I default to thinking of V as female, it wouldn't terribly shock me if it turned out otherwise. What WOULD surprise me is if Inky was a woman. My brain immediately filed him as "that's a dude, clearly, without question".


Also, as Rich pointed out, make no assumptions based on other NPCs reference. V's been refereed to as feminine by at least Sabine and one of the wizards way back in Azure City's library, and there was the whole inn thing with Haley. Also, as someone mentioned, the Attack on Xykon scene. I seriously doubt we'll ever find out one way or another, and it's not terribly important.

[martianmister]

Not maybe. We know they are a same-gender couple. Or perhaps a genderless couple. Their language does not do grammatical gender and their culture does not do gender stereotypes, apparently, so we can safely assume that they both have the same gender, which is no gender at all.

Just because they don't use gender specific names for different parents doesn't mean that there is no gender differences in Elvish society.

[137beth]

Not maybe. We know they are a same-gender couple.
When did we learn that? We know V is genderqueer from the BRiF commentary. I don't recall ever finding out Inky's gender.

[Rogar Demonblud]

The art on Inky has the same rounded figure Rich uses for women. I figure V is female just because the Crappy Parenting Brigade needs some feminine energy.

Genders are different, of course, and none of this matters in or out of story except on a representation level.

[hamishspence]

Compare Inky to Miko:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0642.html

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0203.html

both have square lower halves, but Miko has a curvy upper half and Inky does not.

[Vinyadan]

Miko's square bum probably depends on the kind of armour she's wearing. Compare Kazumi here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0473.html

Better view: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0472.html

[martianmister]

The art on Inky has the same rounded figure Rich uses for women.

This can't be right. :smallconfused:

[Darth Tom]

Funny thing though, while I default to thinking of V as female, it wouldn't terribly shock me if it turned out otherwise. What WOULD surprise me is if Inky was a woman. My brain immediately filed him as "that's a dude, clearly, without question".

I know what you mean - I think that for me at least, there's a black scratch on Inky in 641/642 http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0642.html which because of its location, I registered as stubble. It's not though, Rich has used those black scratches elsewhere and they seem to indicate different wounds to red ones.

Unless the squared upper body threw me as well, it is a stick figure comic after all, and I can see that one might get a subconscious impression if not actively looking (which I wasn't).

Not that this is all that important - what matters is that they were a couple and V has lost vis (did I see "ve" as a pronoun for V? I love that) or I guess vir "happy ending" (to quote V virself in saying that vis marriage was the happiest day of vir life). It's a great and evocative - if I may go there - use of tragedy.

[AuthorGirl]

Not that this is all that important - what matters is that they were a couple and V has lost vis (did I see "ve" as a pronoun for V? I love that) or I guess vir "happy ending" (to quote V virself in saying that vis marriage was the happiest day of vir life). It's a great and evocative - if I may go there - use of tragedy.

Yes! Pronouns! Thank you!

[Darth Paul]

.... a horrendous number of people are willing to announce all over the Internet either 1) that they're sufficiently attached to white as default to feel enraged betrayal when a character they'd decided was white isn't....

I especially enjoy the furor over Idris Elba, first as Heimdall in the Marvel films ("He can't play Heimdall! Heimdall's a Norse God!! Norse gods are white!!!!) and now as the Gunslinger Roland in The Dark Tower (But Roland has blue eyes!!!!).

He's Idris Elba. He's awesome. Get over it.... :smallamused:

PS... And apparently there are rumors he might be the next Bond. That's twenty percent more awesome.

[Goblin_Priest]

I especially enjoy the furor over Idris Elba, first as Heimdall in the Marvel films ("He can't play Heimdall! Heimdall's a Norse God!! Norse gods are white!!!!) and now as the Gunslinger Roland in The Dark Tower (But Roland has blue eyes!!!!).

He's Idris Elba. He's awesome. Get over it.... :smallamused:

PS... And apparently there are rumors he might be the next Bond. That's twenty percent more awesome.

The irony being that Heimdall is described as not only white, but the whitest of all (or something along these lines).

[Knaight]

The irony being that Heimdall is described as not only white, but the whitest of all (or something along these lines).

The real irony is the Thor fandom complaining about how a particular interpretation of the myths isn't faithful to an older interpretation of the myths. That ship sailed a long time ago, specifically the very first Thor comic featuring Thor as a superhero.

[Kish]

Indeed, if you assume Heimdall's description as "the white god" referred to his skin color...that wouldn't actually point to him being Caucasian; it would point to him being completely inhuman-looking, like an animated statue of ivory. And once you've established you aren't going to have his actor wear Joker-style face paint, it makes little difference (in terms of its mythical accuracy) whether his skin is pink or brown.

[Peelee]

Frankly, I'm still upset the gods weren't speaking Norn. To all ancient Scandinavian grammarians: I know, and I don't care.

[2D8HP]

Frankly, I'm still upset the gods weren't speaking Norn. To all ancient...


How about Icelandic?

[Peelee]

How about Icelandic?

Only if it's ancient.

[Vinyadan]

I guess he's so white it loops over.

As I said elsewhere, I personally have no problem with race casting -- white for black, black for white, Siberian for Inca, whatever, as long as they can play the part. I find it very sad to preclude a role to an actor not because of his acting style, but because of a package he was born with. I find casting choices in 1997 Batman much worse than a hypothetical Denzel Washington playing George Washington.

I actually read that the actor who played Heimdall was very sad about his role. He found the contour extremely silly, especially when he had just played Mandela. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/film/11195704/Idris-Elba-interview-Marvel-movies-are-torture.html

[Keltest]

I guess he's so white it loops over.

As I said elsewhere, I personally have no problem with race casting -- white for black, black for white, Siberian for Inca, whatever, as long as they can play the part. I find it very sad to preclude a role to an actor not because of his acting style, but because of a package he was born with. I find casting choices in 1997 Batman much worse than a hypothetical Denzel Washington playing George Washington.

I actually read that the actor who played Heimdall was very sad about his role. He found the contour extremely silly, especially when he had just played Mandela. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/film/11195704/Idris-Elba-interview-Marvel-movies-are-torture.html

I'm generally of the same opinion, but I do think that for historical pieces specifically, especially ones set in a time period where your race had large and visible effects on your life, effort should be made to match things as closely as possible.

[Goblin_Priest]

The real irony is the Thor fandom complaining about how a particular interpretation of the myths isn't faithful to an older interpretation of the myths. That ship sailed a long time ago, specifically the very first Thor comic featuring Thor as a superhero.


Indeed, if you assume Heimdall's description as "the white god" referred to his skin color...that wouldn't actually point to him being Caucasian; it would point to him being completely inhuman-looking, like an animated statue of ivory. And once you've established you aren't going to have his actor wear Joker-style face paint, it makes little difference (in terms of its mythical accuracy) whether his skin is pink or brown.

Just because I find it ironic doesn't mean it bothered me. I have just about zero knowledge in norse mythology anyways, and about as much on Marvel's Thor franchise.

[Lissou]

I don't really worry too much about this kind of casting, because it's good to give a range of actors opportunities and the character's race is often not that important to a story (and they're only white because it's the "default" so changing it isn't really a betrayal), but I thought Heimdall did make a lot of sense: if we use the in-universe idea that these people inspired the Norse Gods when they visited Earth, the one person who is keeper of the gate and wouldn't have been on Earth can look totally different, humans will just have assumed that he was the same race the other gods they saw were.

[KorvinStarmast]

Or perhaps a genderless couple. Their language does not do grammatical gender and their culture does not do gender stereotypes, apparently, so we can safely assume that they both have the same gender, which is no gender at all. Can we? Veldrina seems to be a data point against. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0989.html)

They may or may not be a same sex couple. Since it has been stated that the children are adopted, we will never know. Yes, left ambiguous as part of the larger gag on the audience regarding V's gender.

Just because they don't use gender specific names for different parents doesn't mean that there is no gender differences in Elvish society. Agreed.

The art on Inky has the same rounded figure Rich uses for women. I figure V is female just because the Crappy Parenting Brigade needs some feminine energy. Inky Dearest (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0082766/)never made it to syndication.

I especially enjoy the furor over Idris Elba, first as Heimdall in the Marvel films ("He can't play Heimdall! Heimdall's a Norse God!! Norse gods are white!!!!) and now as the Gunslinger Roland in The Dark Tower (But Roland has blue eyes!!!!). I thought he was a rock solid Heimdall, and sadly didn't get enough screen time. (then again, that film wasn't awesome, but it was entertaining enough to make some popcorn).

Is Dark Tower a movie? Ah, I see it is coming out next month. I read the first three or four books as they came out, and enjoyed the first few a lot. Then King lost me as he began to cross over into some of his other stories that I had not read. He's a good writer, most of the time, however the self referential stuff got to be annoying.

Roland and blue eyes: I've met more than one black man with blue eyes in my life. Roland's eyes aren't that critical to the story, IMO. But his presence and demeanor are key ... I think Idris Elba has what it takes to come up with a solid Roland. (Looking forward to this movie, to be sure).

[137beth]

How about Icelandic?

Nuh uh, Icelandic Grammarians have a totally unfair advantage due to their Misleading Names Collusion with Greenland Grammarians. I'm pretty sure I went to Greenland and I didn't see ANY green-skinned humans, nor did I see any humans made entirely out of Ice in Iceland!

[hroþila]

I'm generally of the same opinion, but I do think that for historical pieces specifically, especially ones set in a time period where your race had large and visible effects on your life, effort should be made to match things as closely as possible.
While I agree with this in principle, we must also be aware that many people think the past was whiter than it actually was.

[Darth Paul]

Roland and blue eyes: I've met more than one black man with blue eyes in my life. Roland's eyes aren't that critical to the story, IMO. But his presence and demeanor are key ... I think Idris Elba has what it takes to come up with a solid Roland. (Looking forward to this movie, to be sure).

I agree, obviously. The "blue eyes" thing was just another excuse for thinly veiled racism among those who need to find thin veils to hide behind.

Among the things I'm looking for out of this film, other than solid performances from all and a reasonably faithful adaptation (recognizing that you can't cram seven books into a single movie), is for the words "The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed..." to be the first thing we see scrolled across the screen. I'll be vaguely disappointed with anything less, considering those are the central words of the series in more ways than one

[Rogar Demonblud]

While I agree with this in principle, we must also be aware that many people think the past was whiter than it actually was.

Most people have no idea how globalized the planet was 5,000 years ago, let alone in the Middle Ages.

[Knaight]

Most people have no idea how globalized the planet was 5,000 years ago, let alone in the Middle Ages.

Especially parts of the planet around really, really convenient traveling routes. The Mediterranean sea is easier to float on than the ocean, has fewer and weaker storms than the ocean, and was just generally critically important to population mixing, particularly in the Roman period when they were shipping troops over it all the time.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Especially parts of the planet around really, really convenient traveling routes. The Mediterranean sea is easier to float on than the ocean, has fewer and weaker storms than the ocean, and was just generally critically important to population mixing, particularly in the Roman period when they were shipping troops over it all the time.

Around it. The sea belonged to the romans, but after a couple of storms ate entire regiments, the romans stopped shipping the troops over water and instead walked them around on roads except across the Adriatic, by and large.

But otherwise perfectly correct. They even made an effort to move legionaries away from their home province to reduce the chance of uprisings.

ETA: I should add, that when it comes to the legions, you have to remember that they were not really evenly spread because neither were the external dangers. Most legions were in the border provinces (one or two legions to a province), along the Rhine, the middle East and in Egypt (i.e. north and east). When military reinforcements were needed, they were usually needed in one of the Rhine provinces (which drew from the nearby provinces) or in the middle east, which usually meant moving the germanic legions down Greece and across modern Turkey. The only times when legions would even need to consider crossing the sea was during the early expansion (i.e. the punic wars) and during the civil wars, when taking legions in or out of the Italian peninsula suddenly made sense.

GW

[Rogar Demonblud]

And the Jugurthine War, although it's perhaps fair to count that among the Punic Wars.

But read up on the Silk Roads, and realize how long we've had global trade. Hint--most of our earliest records are about taxing the trade.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

And the Jugurthine War, although it's perhaps fair to count that among the Punic Wars.

But read up on the Silk Roads, and realize how long we've had global trade. Hint--most of our earliest records are about taxing the trade.

To be clear, I am not AT ALL disagreeing that the ancient world was very globalised. I am just in a Roman-nerd phase due to having been listening to the History of Rome podcast, and thus I wanted to clarify that the legions walked rather than sailed. The Roman army was water-averse, but the traders weren't. China-Rome communications were not a thing only because the Parthians and later the Seleucids did everything in their power to stop them so they wouldn't be cut out of the lucrative silk road loop (down to and including lying to the Chinese about how far Rome was). But all that is at governmental level. Clearly, someone that really wanted to move between continents could, and they likely frequently did. I suspect seeing a Chinese in Rome would be quite rare, mind you, but still something that happened.

Later, Europe did get disconnected from global trade with the rise of the Muslim empire, which of course famously pushed Spain and Portugal to find ways around the issue. But even during that period, people could and frequently did move from Indonesia all the way to Western Africa and back.

Grey Wolf

[Vinyadan]

the Parthians and later the Seleucids
Grey Wolf

I think you got those backwards :smallwink: although there is a fair share of overlap between the two. It's a fascinating subject, anyway.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Later, Europe did get disconnected from global trade with the rise of the Muslim empire, which of course famously pushed Spain and Portugal to find ways around the issue. But even during that period, people could and frequently did move from Indonesia all the way to Western Africa and back.

Grey Wolf

The Iberians went hunting new routes because the Italians (especially Venice) were making mega-bank on the trade and they wanted in. The Muslim Empires of whatever stripe only shut down trade when in the course of collapsing/rising.

And you could actually go from Iceland to Japan, down to Indonesia, over to India, down the east coast of Africa to northern Madagascar and Zanj-es-Bazaar (modern Zanzibar) and across the Sahel to Timbuktu and down the rivers to the Bight of Africa and sail from there and accidentally end up in the Americas. And all in about Anno Domini 800.

[Vinyadan]

I think that it's good to remember, however, that there is a huge difference between globalization and global trade/route network. I agree that most of the world was interconnected by roads, seas, communication and merchants, and that seeing e.g. black people in Europe wasn't impossible (Alessandro de' Medici being a notable case), but most people didn't really leave the region they were born in. The big exception was pilgrimage, and it was one of the reasons everyone loved pilgrimages, they were long trips to see new things, meet new people, and do something significant.
So the few who travelled for a living could get nearly anywhere (merchants and diplomats were the most numerous ones, others were scholars and explorers; university teachers and top-level tutors also often spent time in different countries; then there were of course wars and travelling soldiers). Farmers of the countryside, however, had little interest to go beyond a few important fairs.

[Alias]

Yeah, I always felt that fell flat.

:smallbiggrin: