Pact Blade Weapon Choice and Polymorph [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

RSP

2017-06-11, 02:57 AM

Polymorph replaces class features for the beast's stat block.

Interesting. Started rereading SAs on this. JC has very few tweets on this that I found and some are contradictory. For instance, when specifically asked about Arcane Ward and being Polymorphed, his response was this:

"If you're protected by Arcane Ward, changing your form doesn't end the ward, unless the transformation effect says otherwise. #DnD"

Again, in response to a question of an Abjurer Polymorphing themself. It sounds like here he's saying the class features carry over (you can't maintain a Ward if that feature no longer exists).

However, he also does say:

"Replace your game statistics" in polymorph effects refers to your character's statistics, not the effects of a spell or a magic item. #DnD"

And

"If transformed by the true polymorph spell, the creature would speak what the new form speaks. https://twitter.com/DavidPozorski/"

Ultimately, I think I'm agreeing, the class features don't carry over (other than Arcane Ward for some reason).

Interestingly, it also seems the Polymorphed creatures cannot even understand languages anymore (as no Beasts have language proficiency).

Thanks for pointing it out.

RSP

2017-06-11, 03:01 AM

Though, I guess we're back to "can you summon a giant's great sword as your Pact weapon, drop it, then get Polymorphed into a Giant Ape and pick it back up and use it." You'd not have Prof in the weapon, so no prof Bonus to attack, but otherwise seems it would work.

Likewise, the Enlarged Warlock: can they summon an Enlarged weapon?

AttilatheYeon

2017-06-11, 03:48 AM

90sMusic

2017-06-11, 04:00 AM

RSP

2017-06-11, 04:16 AM

Keep in mind that when you use regular ol polymorph that your mental stats change as well. You aren't just your regular keen mind in another body, only wildshape and shapechange do that. You are instead turned into this actual creature with that creature's mind.

A giant ape doesn't know how to use swords and probably wouldn't even think to try.

Depends how you view it. Really there's a ton of discrepancies in the rules in trying to evaluate them in terms of real life. Like how come I remember who my friends are but I lose all memory of what a sword is?

Or, how come a dog can concentrate on maintaining a spell?

In game, there's stuff as well. Why does Arcane Ward, a class feature, continue through a Polymorphy spell but Unarmored Defense, another class feature, does not? If the idea is 'your character sheet is replaced by the Giant Ape listing in the MM,' then neither should exist, as well as things like Rage.

I'm not sure there's really a way to evaluate these things to make definitive statements of "a Polymorphed Fighter doesn't remember what a sword is or even the basics of how one would use it."

SharkForce

2017-06-11, 10:28 PM

Tetrasodium

2017-06-11, 11:45 PM

I've seen the posts regarding using Pact Blade to have monstrous weapons, and understand the arguments there, but what if the Warlock is polymophed into a Giant Ape, then wants to summon an equivalently-sized great sword?

The language of the Pact doesn't seem to go against this. Again, I've read the monstrous weapon arguments, but this seemed like a (albeit slightly) different situation.

I'd say it's similar to if an enlarged Warlock summoned their Blade: would it be summoned as enlarged, or would you still have to summon a normal sword as it wasn't present during the casting of Enlarge?

The most common actions that a monster will take in
combat are melee and ranged attacks. These can be
spell attacks or weapon attacks, where the "weapon"
might be a manufactured item or a natural weapon, such
as a claw or tail spike. For more information on different
kinds of attacks, see the Player's Handbook.
Creature vs. Target. The target of a melee or ranged
attack is usually either one creature or one target,
the difference being that a "target" can be a creature
or an object.
Hit. Any damage dealt or other effects that occur as
a result of an attack hitting a target are described after
the "Hit" notation. You have the option of taking average
damage or rolling the damage; for this reason, both the
average damage and the die expression are presented.
Miss. If an attack has an effect that occurs on a miss,
that information is presented after the "Miss:" notation.

Eldritch blast & most warlock spells need a verbal component & the giant ape is an incredible form

Multiattack. The ape makes two fist attacks.
Fist. Melee Weapon Attack: +9 to hit, reach 10ft., one target.
Hit: 22 (3d10 + 6) bludgeoning damage.
Rock. Ranged Weapon Attack: +9 to hit, range 50/100ft., one
target. Hit: 30 (7d6 + 6) bludgeoning damage.

An extra thing of note is that polymorph is different from wildshape in that all stats "including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the chosen beast" compounds to make the giant ape's -2 charisma mod compared to its +6 strength mod seem squarely in the realm of why would you bother? no pact weapon deals 3d10, you pretty much can't cast anything & it would be terrible if you could thanks to a charisma of 7.

GrANT APE
Huge beast, unaligned

Armor Class 12
Hit Points 157 (15d12 + 60)
Speed 40ft., climb 40ft.

STR
23 (+6)

DEX
14 (+2)

CON
18 (+4)

Skills Athletics +9, Perception +4
Senses passive Perception 14
Languages-
Challenge 7 (2,900 XP)

ACTIONS

INT
7 (- 2)

WIS
12 (+1 )

Multiattack. The ape makes two fist attacks.

CHA
7 (-2)

Fist. Melee Weapon Attack: +9 to hit, reach 10ft., one target.
Hit: 22 (3d10 + 6) bludgeoning damage.
Rock. Ranged Weapon Attack: +9 to hit, range 50/100ft., one
target. Hit: 30 (7d6 + 6) bludgeoning damage.

AttilatheYeon

2017-06-12, 12:08 AM

I think Arcane Ward stays because it's a status effect. But, the polymorphed wizard can't refresh it even if he could cast an abjuration somehow because that is linked to the class feature.

AttilatheYeon

2017-06-12, 12:10 AM

Of course this gives me an idea for a character for Tomb of A when it comes out. Now i just gotta figure out how to get an imp familiar.

Cybren

2017-06-12, 12:27 AM

Depends how you view it. Really there's a ton of discrepancies in the rules in trying to evaluate them in terms of real life. Like how come I remember who my friends are but I lose all memory of what a sword is?

Or, how come a dog can concentrate on maintaining a spell?

In game, there's stuff as well. Why does Arcane Ward, a class feature, continue through a Polymorphy spell but Unarmored Defense, another class feature, does not? If the idea is 'your character sheet is replaced by the Giant Ape listing in the MM,' then neither should exist, as well as things like Rage.

I'm not sure there's really a way to evaluate these things to make definitive statements of "a Polymorphed Fighter doesn't remember what a sword is or even the basics of how one would use it."
The arcane ward one is easy: you create an arcane ward with some number of hit points. It's created. It exists now. You polymorph, sure. But the ward is already there.

RSP

2017-06-12, 03:19 AM

The arcane ward one is easy: you create an arcane ward with some number of hit points. It's created. It exists now. You polymorph, sure. But the ward is already there.

Then the same thinking comes into play with other on-going effects: I Rage, then get Polymorphed. Rage is an ongoing effect.

Likewise, Unarmored Defense is an ongoing effect in that its always on. I'd play it as none of these count as they're not on the MM entry for Giant Ape.

RSP

2017-06-12, 03:23 AM

i would suspect that the arcane ward thing was just poor reading comprehension, and he didn't notice the ward was coming from the person who was being polymorphed.

the rules are quite clear on what happens when you polymorph. a giant ape might think to try and use a tool (RL apes do sometimes, and the giant ape is fairly smart), but your proficiency in swords is gone; you could use it, but not very well.

funny enough, though, if there was a "war ape" or something like that in your setting, which was a giant ape trained in the use of armour and weapons, you could polymorph into that technically.

There's a difference between "Mental stats" being adjusted and your mind becoming that of an ape. If you became an ape, you're just as likely to run off when facing a threat (fight or flight: a lot of times animals choose flight), an ape isn't going to stand up to an apex preditor like a dragon if it can flee.

Likewise, you don't lose your memories (though oddly you lose proficiencies), you still recognize all your friends, what your objective is and who the bad guys are. So I'm not sure why anyone would think you forget what a sword is.

JackPhoenix

2017-06-12, 10:19 AM

Then the same thinking comes into play with other on-going effects: I Rage, then get Polymorphed. Rage is an ongoing effect.

Likewise, Unarmored Defense is an ongoing effect in that its always on. I'd play it as none of these count as they're not on the MM entry for Giant Ape.

Rage has to be actively maintained. Once you change form and lose the ability, you can't maintain it. Unarmored Defense... for barbarian, it means you're just that tough. When you change form, you're no longer that tough. For a monk, it's matter of skill... when you change form, you no longer posess that skill.

Arcane Ward, once created, is self-sustained. It doesn't depend on the caster's condition... it's no different from having Mage Armor on.

Concentration is weird, Polymorph SHOULD break it like Rage does. But I understand the mechanical reasons for that, if not the logical justification.

There's a difference between "Mental stats" being adjusted and your mind becoming that of an ape. If you became an ape, you're just as likely to run off when facing a threat (fight or flight: a lot of times animals choose flight), an ape isn't going to stand up to an apex preditor like a dragon if it can flee.

Likewise, you don't lose your memories (though oddly you lose proficiencies), you still recognize all your friends, what your objective is and who the bad guys are. So I'm not sure why anyone would think you forget what a sword is.

Polymorph doesn't say anything about friends, enemies or objectives. Only that you retain your alignment and personality... which make sense, even dogs have different personalities. And know who the members of their pack are. Problems start in unusual cases... if you hate someone, but are forced to work together, as an animal, you lack inhibitions that would prevent you from attacking him. If you fight with your party against an enemy, and some unexpected help arrives, as animal, you don't recognize these ones are your allies. If the sorcerer changes you and another party member into a Giant Ape, you lack the capability to recognize it is your friend, all you see is another ape.

SharkForce

2017-06-12, 11:57 AM

There's a difference between "Mental stats" being adjusted and your mind becoming that of an ape. If you became an ape, you're just as likely to run off when facing a threat (fight or flight: a lot of times animals choose flight), an ape isn't going to stand up to an apex preditor like a dragon if it can flee.

Likewise, you don't lose your memories (though oddly you lose proficiencies), you still recognize all your friends, what your objective is and who the bad guys are. So I'm not sure why anyone would think you forget what a sword is.

i didn't say you couldn't recognize a sword. i said you wouldn't be able to use it very well. as in, no proficiency. considering you suddenly gained proficiency in all the things giant apes do without needing any memories to support it, and nobody complains about that, i fail to see why it is so hard to believe that you lose your old proficiencies but you don't lose the memories.

Tanarii

2017-06-12, 04:55 PM

Likewise, you don't lose your memories (though oddly you lose proficiencies), you still recognize all your friends, what your objective is and who the bad guys are. So I'm not sure why anyone would think you forget what a sword is.Recalling things (ie accessing memory) are what Int checks are for. So is deductive reasoning, possibly modified by Investigation.

So yes, having your Int replaced with that of the animal is going to effectively cause memory loss and the inability to figure out what things are.

Edit: Remember, Polymorph only says you retain your Alignment and personality. And remember that in 5e, Personality is a very specific thing. It's your Personality, Ideal, Bond and Flaw.
In other words, the spell it telling you that your 5-6 basic motivations don't change. But anything that depends on Int, Wis or Cha, which includes recalling, deducing (both Int), observing, instinct (Wis), force of personality, or interaction skills (Cha) is all replaced with that of the animal.

Tetrasodium

2017-06-12, 08:51 PM

SharkForce

2017-06-12, 09:18 PM

Unarmored defense type stuff works just fine with polymorph, it doesn't stack with natural ac though so you can either use the form's AC or your UAD AC of 10+dex+whatever

no it doesn't. once you're polymorphed, you don't have unarmored defense any more.

RSP

2017-06-13, 02:15 AM

Rage has to be actively maintained. Once you change form and lose the ability, you can't maintain it. Unarmored Defense... for barbarian, it means you're just that tough. When you change form, you're no longer that tough. For a monk, it's matter of skill... when you change form, you no longer posess that skill.

Arcane Ward, once created, is self-sustained. It doesn't depend on the caster's condition... it's no different from having Mage Armor on.

Concentration is weird, Polymorph SHOULD break it like Rage does. But I understand the mechanical reasons for that, if not the logical justification.

Polymorph doesn't say anything about friends, enemies or objectives. Only that you retain your alignment and personality... which make sense, even dogs have different personalities. And know who the members of their pack are. Problems start in unusual cases... if you hate someone, but are forced to work together, as an animal, you lack inhibitions that would prevent you from attacking him. If you fight with your party against an enemy, and some unexpected help arrives, as animal, you don't recognize these ones are your allies. If the sorcerer changes you and another party member into a Giant Ape, you lack the capability to recognize it is your friend, all you see is another ape.

Recalling things (ie accessing memory) are what Int checks are for. So is deductive reasoning, possibly modified by Investigation.

So yes, having your Int replaced with that of the animal is going to effectively cause memory loss and the inability to figure out what things are.

Edit: Remember, Polymorph only says you retain your Alignment and personality. And remember that in 5e, Personality is a very specific thing. It's your Personality, Ideal, Bond and Flaw.
In other words, the spell it telling you that your 5-6 basic motivations don't change. But anything that depends on Int, Wis or Cha, which includes recalling, deducing (both Int), observing, instinct (Wis), force of personality, or interaction skills (Cha) is all replaced with that of the animal.

I think you both are making things up, in the sense that I doubt either of you require Int Checks to remember who your allies are, or if you remember what a sword is. Clearly an int dumped Fighter can have a negative roll on a check if needed. However, nothing in the wording of Polymorph states it changes your memories.

Again, if it did, you'd have to play your character as an animal rather than as a PC, which would include fleeing if facing an apex preditor, and quite possibly eating your fellow PCs if hungry.

I doubt either of these things is RAI.

RSP

2017-06-13, 02:38 AM

Tanarii

2017-06-13, 08:01 AM

I think you both are making things up, in the sense that I doubt either of you require Int Checks to remember who your allies are, or if you remember what a sword is. Clearly an int dumped Fighter can have a negative roll on a check if needed.Of course I don't require Int checks for those things. But if a player wants to play their Polymorphed PC instead of having it become an NPC, I expect them to take into account that their memories and deductive ability have both just changed. As it obvious from what the spell states in it's wording.

However, nothing in the wording of Polymorph states it changes your memories.It removes all class abilities. It replaces your Int with a new Int.

I'm not sure how much 'nothing' the wording needs to state before you'll grasp that it changes your memories.

Again, if it did, you'd have to play your character as an animal rather than as a PC, which would include fleeing if facing an apex preditor, and quite possibly eating your fellow PCs if hungry.There's dangers to polymorphing. That's why it's sometimes incredibly stupid to Polymorph PCs with the spell. They aren't completely themselves any more, as represented by complete replacement of their ability scores, proficiencies, class skills, etc with the Animal's stat block.

But remember, motivations don't change. Alignment and Personality Traits stay the same. You may have the intellect of an animal, but you still might have things like:
Ideal - Charity. I always try to help those in need, no matter what the personal cost.
Flaw - When faced with a choice between money and my friends, I usually choose the money.
Bond - A proud noble once gave me a horrible beating, and I will take my revenge on any bully I encounter.
Personality - I don’t like to get my hands dirty, and I won’t be caught dead in unsuitable accommodations.
Flaw - Most people scream and run when they see a demon. I stop and take notes on its anatomy.
Bond - Someone saved my life on the battlefield. To this day, I will never leave a friend behind.

All taken from the Basic Rules Backgrounds, and all of which are likely to have a rather obvious affect on how a player chooses to play their polymophed PC in ways that no animal really would.

I doubt either of these things is RAI.
If it wasn't RAI that you lose intellect, including the ability to recall things and deductive reasoning capability, and specific memories, including training & focus such as proficiency and class features, then Polymorph wouldn't have those things as part of it's rules.

If it was RAI that you start to act/react only as an animal would, then you wouldn't retain Alignment and Personality.

RSP

2017-06-13, 04:20 PM

Of course I don't require Int checks for those things. But if a player wants to play their Polymorphed PC instead of having it become an NPC, I expect them to take into account that their memories and deductive ability have both just changed. As it obvious from what the spell states in it's wording.

It removes all class abilities. It replaces your Int with a new Int.

I'm not sure how much 'nothing' the wording needs to state before you'll grasp that it changes your memories.

There's dangers to polymorphing. That's why it's sometimes incredibly stupid to Polymorph PCs with the spell. They aren't completely themselves any more, as represented by complete replacement of their ability scores, proficiencies, class skills, etc with the Animal's stat block.

But remember, motivations don't change. Alignment and Personality Traits stay the same. You may have the intellect of an animal, but you still might have things like:
Ideal - Charity. I always try to help those in need, no matter what the personal cost.
Flaw - When faced with a choice between money and my friends, I usually choose the money.
Bond - A proud noble once gave me a horrible beating, and I will take my revenge on any bully I encounter.
Personality - I don’t like to get my hands dirty, and I won’t be caught dead in unsuitable accommodations.
Flaw - Most people scream and run when they see a demon. I stop and take notes on its anatomy.
Bond - Someone saved my life on the battlefield. To this day, I will never leave a friend behind.

All taken from the Basic Rules Backgrounds, and all of which are likely to have a rather obvious affect on how a player chooses to play their polymophed PC in ways that no animal really would.

If it wasn't RAI that you lose intellect, including the ability to recall things and deductive reasoning capability, and specific memories, including training & focus such as proficiency and class features, then Polymorph wouldn't have those things as part of it's rules.

If it was RAI that you start to act/react only as an animal would, then you wouldn't retain Alignment and Personality.

Just so we're on the same page:

Here's what Polymorph does:

"This spell transforms a creature that you can see within range into a new form...
....The target's game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the chosen beast. It retains its alignment and personality...
...The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form, and it can't speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech.

The target's gear melds into the new form. The creature can't activate, use, wield, or otherwise benefit from any of its equipment."

Here's what the stats are:

"Intelligence
Measures: Mental acuity, information recall, analytical skill
Wisdom
Measures: Awareness, intuition, insight
Charisma
Measures: Confidence, eloquence, leadership"

No where in the description of Polymorph does it say you lose your memory; it says you get a new "form" and use its "stats." Memory isn't a stat: characters with the same Int have different memories. Int does effect your ability to recall info, but again, a 7 Int doesn't mean you can't remember what a sword is.

If it changes your memory, it would say so, but it doesn't. It specifically states the character gets a new form and the stats change. Adding memories into that is beyond what the spell does, RAW, and, I believe against RAI.

Check out this tweet by Crawford in response to a DM having trouble with their PCs using two Polymorph T Rex's at a time:

Ross Cody:
"@mikemearls @JeremyECrawford Advice for dealing with a Lv8 party that commonly has 2 T-rexes in it (bard & wiz cast poly on ftr & paladin)?
@JeremyECrawford @mikemearls The T-rexes seem a LOT more powerful than the Lv8 party, they've been pretty unstoppable! Just feels a bit off."

Crawford's response:
"Remember: polymorph's target uses the beast's stat block, not their character sheet, & you can break the spellcaster's concentration. #DnD https://twitter.com/rossmcody/status/804133327774969858 …"

I'd imagine the fact that the T Rex's are intended to attack the PCs, and each other because that's what T Rex's would do, would have come up if that's what the spell was meant to do.

Instead JC mentions the stat block and Concentration as the limiting factors. And again, Int does not mean memory.

Now you could argue the last paragraph of Polymorph means the Giant Ape can't use a sword but I believe it's referencing the gear that melds into the character. Technically, the Giant Ape has rocks per its stat block (that it throws as an attack), but the line "The creature can't activate, use, wield, or otherwise benefit from any of its equipment," means it can't use them as it's the Giant Ape's gear, unless of course, the reference is to the gear that melds, which is what the layout of that paragraph suggests.

Likewise, one could argue the line "...The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form, and it can't speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech," limits the Giant Ape to throwing a rock or Multi-attack, however, this is incorrect: a Giant Ape's (or any monster's) Actions aren't limited to what's in its stat block: a Giant Ape can grapple using its Action, it can pick up items (like the aforementioned rocks), it can dash, dodge, etc.

The spell limits the actions taken to those that can be done by the form, not the actions in the stat block. As a Giant Ape is capple of picking up items and attacking others with them, then a PC Polymorphed into the form of a Giant Ape can do the same.

And again, a Giant Ape is actually fairly intelligent: if given time, they're capable of learning skills or languages per the downtime rules. They're slightly less intelligent than an Int dumped character.

RSP

2017-06-13, 04:31 PM

But remember, motivations don't change. Alignment and Personality Traits stay the same. You may have the intellect of an animal, but you still might have things like:
Ideal - Charity. I always try to help those in need, no matter what the personal cost.
Flaw - When faced with a choice between money and my friends, I usually choose the money.
Bond - A proud noble once gave me a horrible beating, and I will take my revenge on any bully I encounter.
Personality - I don’t like to get my hands dirty, and I won’t be caught dead in unsuitable accommodations.
Flaw - Most people scream and run when they see a demon. I stop and take notes on its anatomy.
Bond - Someone saved my life on the battlefield. To this day, I will never leave a friend behind.

All taken from the Basic Rules Backgrounds, and all of which are likely to have a rather obvious affect on how a player chooses to play their polymophed PC in ways that no animal really would.

All of these condradict your point, though. How could you remember a noble beating you if you don't keep your memories? How would you know what money is if you only know what a Giant Ape knows? How do you know someone saved your life on a battlefield if you don't have your usual memories? Etc.

Tanarii

2017-06-13, 07:42 PM

"Intelligence
Measures: Mental acuity, information recall, analytical skill

No where in the description of Polymorph does it say you lose your memory; it says you get a new "form" and use its "stats." Memory isn't a stat: characters with the same Int have different memories. Int does effect your ability to recall info, but again, a 7 Int doesn't mean you can't remember what a sword is.

All of these condradict your point, though. How could you remember a noble beating you if you don't keep your memories? How would you know what money is if you only know what a Giant Ape knows? How do you know someone saved your life on a battlefield if you don't have your usual memories? Etc.
No, I never meant to say or imply you lose all memories. But Int affects information recall. That's what memories ARE. If you switch to an animal form with an Int of 2, you're going to be unable to recall a lot of things. That's partially simulated by losing your skill and other proficiency bonuses. What else is up to the DM and player. Obviously it'll affect any Int checks they need to make, but it may affect non-check ability to recall as well. Also, they won't be able to automatically succeed on anything that's a DC 20 to recall given time to think about it, which (if Int 10+) they could before the shift. So at the minimum they temporarily lost those memories.

That's just as true for any low Int character. They'll have less accurate memories than a high Int character.

(Apes are considerable more intelligent so they'll retain better information recall, obviously.)

RSP

2017-06-13, 08:18 PM

No, I never meant to say or imply you lose all memories. But Int affects information recall. That's what memories ARE.

You seemed to be implying that the PC lost memories and was to effectively be a normal animal, which isn't true. You're ability to recall information is lessened with a lower Int, but no memories are changed.

A 7 Int is plenty to remember what a sword is and how it can be used, even if you don't retain your Proficiency. Hence, why I asked if you'd make the Int dumped Fighter roll to see if they remember what a sword is when they want to use it.

Even animals with less Int would probably remember what a sword is: most animals that can be trained know the items regularly used to motivate them. A Fighter who used his sword everyday is going to remember it just as a dog recalls what a ball or frisbee is.

I'm not sure how much 'nothing' the wording needs to state before you'll grasp that it changes your memories.

Of course I don't require Int checks for those things. But if a player wants to play their Polymorphed PC instead of having it become an NPC, I expect them to take into account that their memories and deductive ability have both just changed. As it obvious from what the spell states in it's wording.

So yes, having your Int replaced with that of the animal is going to effectively cause memory loss and the inability to figure out what things are.

This is why I thought that you were saying memories changed. Bolding mine for emphasis.

JackPhoenix

2017-06-14, 01:25 AM

Moreover, a Giant Ape has a 7 Int, more than enough to "remember" what a sword is and how it's used (even if not proficient).

A skeleton has int 6 and by its MM entry uses short swords. If ruling that a 7 int isn't able to recall who their friends are, or memories like "6 seconds ago I was fighting this thing with a sword" then you need to rule that way across the board (and if rolling stats, make sure you don't dump int).

A 7 is 1 point lower than what many standard array fighters and Paladins (and others) have all the time. I doubt 1 point makes a character go from functioning normally to "what is this in my hand?"

Again, if ruling that's what a 7 int entails, you should at the least, maintain that ruling throughout play.

I have no idea why are you talking about swords, I never mentioned one. And in the post you've quoted, I said that the beast would remember who their friends are. But it would lack mental capability to think "I hate this guy and I'd beat him up, but I can't do that right now, I need him", "These guys I've never seen before are on our side" or "This ape is actually my friend Bob under the effect of the same spell as me".

Ape would remember what sword is, it's a shiny, hard, vaguely stick-like thing to beat enemies with, and it would do so... as an improvised weapon, same as with any other stick. Skeleton and its intelligence has no bearing on its ability to use the sword noted in its stat block, being "programmed" with proficiency doesn't require intelligence, but it would be just as useless as the ape if it was given "unfamiliar" weapon (at least some. Using maul, greatclub or similar weapon properly doesn't require much skill, but they would still be non-proficient. With crossbow, swords or other weapons which require more skill to be used properly, it's improvised melee (or thrown) weapon time!)

Tanarii

2017-06-14, 08:53 AM

You seemed to be implying that the PC lost memories and was to effectively be a normal animal, which isn't true. You're ability to recall information is lessened with a lower Int, but no memories are changed. :smallconfused: The last sentence contradicts itself. If your ability to recall information is lessened, your memories are changed. That's what memory means. Information you recall.

A 7 Int is plenty to remember what a sword is and how it can be used, even if you don't retain your Proficiency. I have no idea why you're talking about swords and Int 7. Most animals are Int 2. Memories are for more things than 'what a sword is and how it can be use'. There are lots of things people know, and a Int 2 character is far worse at recalling that info then when they were Int 10 or whatever. That's all. That means they no longer can access those memories, they've lost them for the duration of the spell.

This is why I thought that you were saying memories changed. Bolding mine for emphasis.Because I AM saying some memories are changed / lost for the duration of the spell. :smallconfused: :smalltongue:

I did not say all memories are lost. I never said that the player just becomes an animal for all purposes, with themselves lost, the duration of the spell.

You seem to be stuck in thinking of it as a black or white, all or nothing, memory loss. It's not. Their mental acuity and ability to recall things is temporarily reduced. Not that they lose everything and become a normal animal with no memory of their pre-Polymorph existence.

RSP

2017-06-14, 10:30 AM

Polymorph doesn't say anything about friends, enemies or objectives. Only that you retain your alignment and personality... which make sense, even dogs have different personalities. And know who the members of their pack are. Problems start in unusual cases... if you hate someone, but are forced to work together, as an animal, you lack inhibitions that would prevent you from attacking him. If you fight with your party against an enemy, and some unexpected help arrives, as animal, you don't recognize these ones are your allies. If the sorcerer changes you and another party member into a Giant Ape, you lack the capability to recognize it is your friend, all you see is another ape.

I'll reiterate on this: Polymorph doesn't change your memories. A Giant Ape has Int 7, which is plenty for a character to remember who they are, who their friends are and what's going on.

You would understand unexpected help arriving and be able to discern those not attacking you (they might not know the Giant Ape is one of the PCs which may cause issues, particularly without understanding a language).

A dog recognizes and remembers those that are commonly friendly with it and those that have hurt it before. Even as a lower Int animal, you'd recognize your friends.

An Int of 7 is plenty to recall 6 seconds ago when the Sorcerer changed you into a Giant Ape and that they did the same to you're teammate.

Also, they probably told you something like "I'll turn you into a Giant Ape!" or somesuch. If not, then you can't be a willing recipient of the spell (sans metagaming but as this entire conversation deals with roleplaying, let's assume no metagaming) and I doubt a Sorcerer wants to waste a spell slot and an Action, and possibly Sorcerer points on Twin, by allowing saving throws on his Polymorph that are easily avoided.

So yeah, the 'you're an animal now' examples you give are wrong.

I have no idea why are you talking about swords, I never mentioned one.

Because that's what the thread is about, and I was specifically responding to Tanarii; I'm sorry if you disagree with me including others in this discussion, or, you know, referencing the thread topic.

And in the post you've quoted, I said that the beast would remember who their friends are. But it would lack mental capability to think "I hate this guy and I'd beat him up, but I can't do that right now, I need him", "These guys I've never seen before are on our side" or "This ape is actually my friend Bob under the effect of the same spell as me".

See above why all these are wrong.

Ape would remember what sword is, it's a shiny, hard, vaguely stick-like thing to beat enemies with, and it would do so... as an improvised weapon, same as with any other stick.

Not quite, a Int of 7 is plenty to remember quite a bit more. Plus, a weapon is never an improvised weapon. Since this is obviously a point of confusion, from the PHB:

"An improvised weapon includes any object you can wield in one or two hands, such as broken glass, a table leg, a frying pan, a wagon wheel, or a dead goblin.
In many cases, an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon and can be treated as such. For example, a table leg is akin to a club. At the DM’s option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her proficiency bonus.
An object that bears no resemblance to a weapon deals 1d4 damage (the DM assigns a damage type appropriate to the object)."

A sword is always a sword and never an improvised weapon.

Skeleton and its intelligence has no bearing on its ability to use the sword noted in its stat block, being "programmed" with proficiency doesn't require intelligence, but it would be just as useless as the ape if it was given "unfamiliar" weapon (at least some. Using maul, greatclub or similar weapon properly doesn't require much skill, but they would still be non-proficient. With crossbow, swords or other weapons which require more skill to be used properly, it's improvised melee (or thrown) weapon time!)

Proficiency and whether a weapon is improvised are two different things. Reread the rules on each; it's pretty clear in the PHB.

An improvised weapon is not a weapon and doesn't resemble a weapon listed on the weapon table.

Proficiency with a weapon allows one to use their Proficiency bonus when using that weapon.

Not having proficiency doesn't mean the weapon becomes a non-weapon, it just means you don't use your proficiency bonus to attacks made with that weapon.

RSP

2017-06-14, 11:56 AM

:smallconfused: The last sentence contradicts itself. If your ability to recall information is lessened, your memories are changed. That's what memory means. Information you recall.

I have no idea why you're talking about swords and Int 7. Most animals are Int 2. Memories are for more things than 'what a sword is and how it can be use'. There are lots of things people know, and a Int 2 character is far worse at recalling that info then when they were Int 10 or whatever. That's all. That means they no longer can access those memories, they've lost them for the duration of the spell.

Because I AM saying some memories are changed / lost for the duration of the spell. :smallconfused: :smalltongue:

I did not say all memories are lost. I never said that the player just becomes an animal for all purposes, with themselves lost, the duration of the spell.

You seem to be stuck in thinking of it as a black or white, all or nothing, memory loss. It's not. Their mental acuity and ability to recall things is temporarily reduced. Not that they lose everything and become a normal animal with no memory of their pre-Polymorph existence.

Look at Modify Memory. That spell specifically changes memories. Polymorph doesn't do that: it doesn't change your memories from that of your normal PC to that of whatever beast you transform into.

Apologies if I interpreted your "memory change" to that of JackPhoenix's interpretation. In D&D, I go with a character has a past/background as described by their RP and the PHB. This doesn't change when they Polymorph. Now a casting of Modify Memory (granted at a higher level, depending on how far back you go), actually changes what that character's memories are.

So I think we're differing on what qualifies as memory changing and how memories work. Also, on how much of a difference an Int 8 humanoid character can recall and what an Int 7 beast can recall. The type shouldn't change the ability to recall; only the Int score should do that.

I've never made even Int 6 PCs roll to remember who their friends are or to see if they remember what a sword is: they have that ability to remember such info. Maybe you play differently.

Now, per RAW, if the Polymorphed Wizard into Giant Ape wants to make an Arcana check, they'll do so with a -2 mod and no proficiency bonus, but that doesn't mean they don't still have the memories of being a Wizard.

Tanarii

2017-06-14, 12:12 PM

So I think we're differing on what qualifies as memory changing and how memories work. Also, on how much of a difference an Int 8 humanoid character can recall and what an Int 7 beast can recall. The type shouldn't change the ability to recall; only the Int score should do that.You're stuck on Int 7. The majority of Beasts are Int 2. Any PC will have reduced Int mod from that.

I've never made even Int 6 PCs roll to remember who their friends are or to see if they remember what a sword is: they have that ability to remember such info. Maybe you play differently.I've already addressed this. Why are you determined to cast my position with this black-and-white thinking strawman argument?

Now, per RAW, if the Polymorphed Wizard into Giant Ape wants to make an Arcana check, they'll do so with a -2 mod and no proficiency bonus, but that doesn't mean they don't still have the memories of being a Wizard.Agreed on the first, disagree on the second. Statistically, they remember 25-35% less (+3 to +5 mod, down to -2 mod) in stressful situations when checks are required, although the actual adjusted percentage of success depends on the initial DC and if they also lost a skill. And they can no longer remember anything that is a Hard Intelligence (or even Very Hard) check given enough time to think about it (automatic success rule). They've also forgotten their Spellcasting class feature.

So even if you're determined to think about it in mechanical terms only (ie only things that involve a check, or an automatic success, or a class feature), they've forgotten an awful lot of their memories of being a Wizard.

Edit:

Because that's what the thread is about, and I was specifically responding to Tanarii; I'm sorry if you disagree with me including others in this discussion, or, you know, referencing the thread topic.Hahaha okay that's fair enough. I lose track of the original points in the minutia of the sub-argument I get involved in a lot of times. :smallwink:

On the idea of changing into an Ape and trying (in general terms) to use a sword ... no I don't think a PC or NPC polymorphed into an Ape in particular is likely to forget that a sword is for picking up and hitting/stabbing people with. They have forgotten any special focus they had in it though. They're no longer proficient. That's enough for me to say they've 'forgotten' how to use a sword, but it's not the same as saying 'they won't pick up a sword and try to stab someone with it because they don't understand the concept that a sword is a tool for hitting someone'.

(Edit 2: And your initial comment I responded to was explicitly about forgetting about swords. I went back and looked at it. My initial post about that wasn't supposed to be in any way about swords, just memories in general. I didn't make that clear, so we started off on the wrong foot, talking about two different things. So you're not strawmaning my argument at all. We're just talking about two different things. And I'm pretty off topic.)

JackPhoenix

2017-06-14, 02:06 PM

I'll reiterate on this: Polymorph doesn't change your memories. A Giant Ape has Int 7, which is plenty for a character to remember who they are, who their friends are and what's going on.

No, it doesn't change your memories. It just make some of them (or lot of them) unavailable.

You would understand unexpected help arriving and be able to discern those not attacking you (they might not know the Giant Ape is one of the PCs which may cause issues, particularly without understanding a language).

Yes, you would notice some creatures are not attacking you. You wouldn't understand they are your allies, if you've never seen before... you're an animal in battle surrounded by few creatures you know are friendly, and more creatures you don't know, some of which you may know are unfriendly to you. Haven't you ever seen dog being aggressive towards people interacting with its owner, even if they are not hostile?

A dog recognizes and remembers those that are commonly friendly with it and those that have hurt it before. Even as a lower Int animal, you'd recognize your friends.

Thanks for repeating what I said already. Twice.

An Int of 7 is plenty to recall 6 seconds ago when the Sorcerer changed you into a Giant Ape and that they did the same to you're teammate.

Also, they probably told you something like "I'll turn you into a Giant Ape!" or somesuch. If not, then you can't be a willing recipient of the spell (sans metagaming but as this entire conversation deals with roleplaying, let's assume no metagaming) and I doubt a Sorcerer wants to waste a spell slot and an Action, and possibly Sorcerer points on Twin, by allowing saving throws on his Polymorph that are easily avoided.

As Giant Ape lacks language, once you're polymorphed, "I'll turn you into a Giant Ape" is just a meaningless string of sounds, even if you remember those sounds. You remember being turned into an ape, you don't understand how magic works and have intellectual capacity to understand why is there another ape you've never seen before.

So yeah, the 'you're an animal now' examples you give are wrong.

Not really. All of your argument why would my examples be wrong are false, and I've refuted them.

Because that's what the thread is about, and I was specifically responding to Tanarii; I'm sorry if you disagree with me including others in this discussion, or, you know, referencing the thread topic.

In that case, you shouldn't have quoted my post

Not quite, a Int of 7 is plenty to remember quite a bit more. Plus, a weapon is never an improvised weapon. Since this is obviously a point of confusion, from the PHB:

"An improvised weapon includes any object you can wield in one or two hands, such as broken glass, a table leg, a frying pan, a wagon wheel, or a dead goblin.
In many cases, an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon and can be treated as such. For example, a table leg is akin to a club. At the DM’s option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her proficiency bonus.
An object that bears no resemblance to a weapon deals 1d4 damage (the DM assigns a damage type appropriate to the object)."

A sword is always a sword and never an improvised weapon.

Proficiency and whether a weapon is improvised are two different things. Reread the rules on each; it's pretty clear in the PHB.

An improvised weapon is not a weapon and doesn't resemble a weapon listed on the weapon table.

Proficiency with a weapon allows one to use their Proficiency bonus when using that weapon.

Not having proficiency doesn't mean the weapon becomes a non-weapon, it just means you don't use your proficiency bonus to attacks made with that weapon.

Is a sword object that you can wield in one or two hands? If yes, it can be used as improvised weapon.
Sword thrown at an enemy is improvised weapon. Crossbow used to bash enemies in melee by a desperate crossbowman is improvised weapon. Sword used as a club (if you need bludgeoning damage for example, or if you're using is as ape would) is an improvised weapon, even though it is still a sword.
Improvised weapon can resemble weapon listed in the table, the example you've quoted even directly says so!

RSP

2017-06-14, 05:33 PM

No, it doesn't change your memories. It just make some of them (or lot of them) unavailable.

"Unavailable" based on the mechanics of the game (i.e. Making an Arcana check)

Yes, you would notice some creatures are not attacking you. You wouldn't understand they are your allies, if you've never seen before... you're an animal in battle surrounded by few creatures you know are friendly, and more creatures you don't know, some of which you may know are unfriendly to you. Haven't you ever seen dog being aggressive towards people interacting with its owner, even if they are not hostile?

Bolded mine. You are not an animal. You are in animal form, per the description of the spell:

"This spell transforms a creature with at least 1 hit point that you can see within range into a new form."

Again bolded mine. Yes you get the stat block of the beast listed in the MM, but you are still your character. Your Int, Wis and Chr were just adjusted. Technically, in the case of the Giant Ape and rolled stats, you may actually gain Int by use of the spell.

As Giant Ape lacks language, once you're polymorphed, "I'll turn you into a Giant Ape" is just a meaningless string of sounds, even if you remember those sounds. You remember being turned into an ape, you don't understand how magic works and have intellectual capacity to understand why is there another ape you've never seen before.

You would remember the understanding behind the words and would actually remember that you knew language. Again, memories aren't changed or deleted. Just because you no longer understand Common, doesn't mean you no longer remember the idea behind being turned into a Giant Ape. You would still remember "Bill was turning Jim and I into Giant Apes" as an understanding of what was going to happen/and what did happen.

You really seem to be hooked on the idea that the characters now need to RP as wild animals, yet nothing in the spell says that.

RSP

2017-06-14, 05:39 PM

Is a sword object that you can wield in one or two hands? If yes, it can be used as improvised weapon.
Sword thrown at an enemy is improvised weapon. Crossbow used to bash enemies in melee by a desperate crossbowman is improvised weapon. Sword used as a club (if you need bludgeoning damage for example, or if you're using is as ape would) is an improvised weapon, even though it is still a sword.
Improvised weapon can resemble weapon listed in the table, the example you've quoted even directly says so!

Good point on using a crossbow as a melee weapon.

However, a sword is a weapon, based on type (short, long, great), per the weapon table. If you're not proficient in it, the rules are very clear on what happens: you don't get your proficiency bonus. If you're houseruling that they also count as improvised weapons, that's fine, but your houserules aren't RAW, and as such have no bearing on this discussion.

RSP

2017-06-14, 06:00 PM

You're stuck on Int 7. The majority of Beasts are Int 2. Any PC will have reduced Int mod from that.

To be fair, the post is about a Giant Ape, which is why I'm stuck on Int 7. If the post was on Polymorph in general, I'd be more willing to let the Int 7 references drop.

Agreed on the first, disagree on the second. Statistically, they remember 25-35% less (+3 to +5 mod, down to -2 mod) in stressful situations when checks are required, although the actual adjusted percentage of success depends on the initial DC and if they also lost a skill. And they can no longer remember anything that is a Hard Intelligence (or even Very Hard) check given enough time to think about it (automatic success rule). They've also forgotten their Spellcasting class feature.

So even if you're determined to think about it in mechanical terms only (ie only things that involve a check, or an automatic success, or a class feature), they've forgotten an awful lot of their memories of being a Wizard.

They haven't forgotten anything, technically, they had class features, like Spellcasting, replaced by the stats of a Giant Ape. Fluffing it in game as "forgetting" certain things isn't something I'd disagree with a DM doing, but it is confusing for our current discussion.

I do stand by using the mechanics of Skill Checks because that's all that changes. I understand there's disagreement about what the Int stat stands for but I think using skills as they're defined in the PHB is what's best for these discussions.

For instance, you could have an Int 3 PC (rolled stats and dumped Int) take the Keen Mind feat and remember anything that's happened in the last month with no roll, and have better recall over that time than an Int 20 character.

Also note: nothing in the rules prevents that 3 Int PC from knowing multiple languages at character creation, nor limits them in regards to the downtime rules of learning new languages/skills.

So the mechanical rules of how Int is used is the best we have to go by.

Again, nothing in the wording of the spell says the PC's memory is swapped with that of a wild beast.

On the idea of changing into an Ape and trying (in general terms) to use a sword ... no I don't think a PC or NPC polymorphed into an Ape in particular is likely to forget that a sword is for picking up and hitting/stabbing people with. They have forgotten any special focus they had in it though. They're no longer proficient. That's enough for me to say they've 'forgotten' how to use a sword, but it's not the same as saying 'they won't pick up a sword and try to stab someone with it because they don't understand the concept that a sword is a tool for hitting someone'.

(Edit 2: And your initial comment I responded to was explicitly about forgetting about swords. I went back and looked at it. My initial post about that wasn't supposed to be in any way about swords, just memories in general. I didn't make that clear, so we started off on the wrong foot, talking about two different things. So you're not strawmaning my argument at all. We're just talking about two different things. And I'm pretty off topic.)

Agreed and understood. And yeah, we're not disagreeing on the loss of Proficiencies, I'm just objecting to having Polymorph make a PC forget what they are.

JackPhoenix

2017-06-15, 01:47 PM

Polymorph definitely messes up with your memories, and Int apparently doesn't mean what we think it means.

Meet Winston. Winston is a Giant Ape who was Awakened. He had to be Feebleminded first, because Giant Ape doesn't fulfill the requirements of Awaken (Int 3 or less, which suggest apes propably either shouldn't have Int 7, or they shouldn't be beasts). He got Int 10 and one of languages of the "awakener" (more on that guy later). Winston had a nice GM who allowed him to be played as a PC. Winston choose barbarian (because he wants to get bonuses when he gets mad at people for calling him monkey) and multiclassed to wizard (because he's not a monkey, he's a scientist!) (The GM was also nice to waive multiclass requirements). Much later, when Winston had 9 levels of wizard, Xzibit the bard walked by, saying "Yo dawg, I heard you like Giant Apes, so why don't you Polymorph to Giant Ape, so you can ape while you ape?" After beating the bard to death for that horrible sentence and overused meme, Winston thought it's not a bad idea... he's already Giant Ape, he would get twice the HP by using Polymorph! So he turns himself into a double-ape. Suddenly, his Intelligence is back at 7, he's unable to speak or understand any language, he doesn't know how to use sword, he can't get so angry he gets combat bonuses anymore, his double-ape form is less durable (both less HP for the lack of class levels, and no Con to AC), he can't cast spells anymore (even though Wizard magic is based on knowledge, not innate ability) and lost his knowledge of Arcana, History and Nature, as well as any other skill or tool proficiencies. So beyond physical changes from his tough, trained Giant Ape body to standard model Giant Ape body, he definitely lost access to learned skills, way beyond what decreasing Int would explain, so his memory was most certainly messed with.

On the other hand, there's the Wizard who Awakened Winston in the first place (casting Awaken through Wish, as wizard doesn't have it on its list). His name is Hodor and he is an orc. His GM had him rolling stats in order, and Hodor's player was unlucky enough to end up with 3 in Int, yet he still insists on playing an Orc Wizard. With orc's racial penalty to Int, he ended up with Int 1, which is less than literally mindless zombies. Despite that, he understands and speaks 4 languages (from race and background), is quite proficient with few weapons wizards can use, and of course, can cast wizard's Intelligence and knowledge-based spells, even if he's having a terrible time trying to hit or affect enemies with them. But that's why he uses mostly buffs and other spells without saving throws. He's also proficient in Arcana, History and Nature, but until fairly high level, his skill modifier is negative. When he turns into a Giant Ape to be similar to his new friend Winston, his Intelligence skyrockets compared to its former value, but he loses access to all of those proficiencies and skills mentioned above, while gaining proficiency in Athletics and Perception (though as both are physical skills, that could be ascribed to the fact that giant ape body is better suited for their use). It's hard to claim that his memory wasn't messed with, as he actually got smarter higher Int score as an ape, yet lost access to his previous knowledge (such as it was).

So yes, Int 7 giant ape is still a mere animal, and an Int 1 orc can be (horrible, but RAW viable) wizard. And even though common ogres have lower Int than giant apes (5), unlike apes, they possess a language (two of them, in fact), can craft and use weapons and tools and generally show signs of higher intellect than apes. Apparently, all Int means is how high is your Int save and ability modifier to intelligence ability checks, not how smart or stupid the actual creature is.

RSP

2017-06-15, 03:39 PM

Polymorph definitely messes up with your memories, and Int apparently doesn't mean what we think it means.

I think you meant to say Int does not mean what you thought it did. I mentioned a similar situation to your spoiler in my last post and it's why I've been using Polymorph by the rules: it effects Skill Checks. In this edition, Int has no effect on languages known or what your background is, or number of skills known.

Your memories don't change from Polymorph, however, anything your DM requires a Skill Check to know could be effected (assuming the new form has a different Int than the normal PC form).

JackPhoenix

2017-06-16, 12:43 AM

Your memories don't change from Polymorph, however, anything your DM requires a Skill Check to know could be effected (assuming the new form has a different Int than the normal PC form).

So how do you explain you no longer understand any languages, you lose your knowledge (i.e. proficiencies in Arcana, Religion, History and Nature, not to mention other abilities and proficiencies that are knowledge based), if Polymorph doesn't change your memories?

Ignoring that Polymorph clearly states only things you keep are your alignment and personality, and doesn't include memories in that list.

RSP

2017-06-16, 01:00 AM

So how do you explain you no longer understand any languages, you lose your knowledge (i.e. proficiencies in Arcana, Religion, History and Nature, not to mention other abilities and proficiencies that are knowledge based), if Polymorph doesn't change your memories?

Ignoring that Polymorph clearly states only things you keep are your alignment and personality, and doesn't include memories in that list.

I explain it that you use the stats for the beast whose form you take.

And no, it doesn't clearly state that: you're adding in the word only to start. It says you use the stats of the beast form and you keep your alignment and personality. Anything else isn't covered by the RAW.

Further you're ignoring what personality entails. From Wikipedia:

"Personality is a set of individual differences that are affected by the development of an individual: values, attitudes, personal memories, social relationships, habits, and skills."

Now this isn't the only definition of personality, but I hardly think it's wrong to associate personality with memories. Philosophers have gone so far as to state the loss of ones' memories would make them a different person.

I'd say memories are very much a part of personality.

Malifice

2017-06-16, 01:06 AM

RSP

2017-06-16, 01:34 AM

You cant summon your pact weapon when polymorphed:

'The target's game Statistics, including mental Ability Scores, are replaced by the Statistics of the chosen beast. It retains its alignment and personality.'

Last time I checked, Great Apes dont have the ability to summon a pact weapon anywhere in their game Statistics.

Already covered: summon weapon, Polymorph, pick up weapon. If Arcane Ward stays, so would the weapon.

Malifice

2017-06-16, 01:57 AM

Already covered: summon weapon, Polymorph, pick up weapon. If Arcane Ward stays, so would the weapon.

Not sure that logically follows as a consequence of the ruling of the arcane ward sticking around, but lets assume it does.

You summon the weapon:

You can use your action to create a pact weapon in your empty hand. You can choose the form that this melee weapon takes each time you create it. You are proficient with it while you wield it. This weapon counts as magical for the purpose of overcoming Resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage.

Surely there is an inference there that the weapon be sized appropriately at the time of summoning?

Even if its not (and we say its cool for a Medium Warlock to summon a Huge Greataxe into his empty hand), how is it broken?

A Huge greataxe in the hands of the Giant Ape deals 3d12+6 slashing damage. A Giant Ape with the Axe can only attack with it once (multiattack doesnt apply to the Axe, only the fist).

The Ape is far better off with - Multiattack (2 fist attacks) (3d10 + 6) bludgeoning damage each.

RSP

2017-06-16, 02:01 AM

Not sure that logically follows as a consequence of the ruling of the arcane ward sticking around, but lets assume it does.

You summon the weapon:

Surely there is an inference there that the weapon be sized appropriately at the time of summoning?

Even if its not (and we say its cool for a Medium Warlock to summon a Huge Greataxe into his empty hand), how is it broken?

A Huge greataxe in the hands of the Giant Ape deals 3d12+6 slashing damage. A Giant Ape with the Axe can only attack with it once (multiattack doesnt apply to the Axe, only the fist).

The Ape is far better off with - Multiattack (2 fist attacks) (3d10 + 6) bludgeoning damage each.

Yup. Not a question of optimization.

Malifice

2017-06-16, 02:25 AM

Yup. Not a question of optimization.

Im just not sure a (M) Warlock could summon a (H) greataxe 'in his hand' in the first place. The ability sort of infers that you need to summon a weapon you can actually wield.

Nor am I sure that he retains proficiency in it once he polymorphs himself. Its not entirely clear if the ability to grant the creator proficiency is a feature of the weapon itself (once created) that remains regardless of your changing shape, or of the class feature itself (which dissapears on being polymorphed).

Broadly speaking I dont have a problem with a Blade-lock summoning the blade in his natural form, then the weapon sticking around once his shape changes.

Its just the PC (once polymorphed) is now a monkey. Id expect the player to play his character... well... as a monkey.

Run around, smash stuff, scream a lot. Hurl his poo at things. Eat bannanas. That kind of thing.

RSP

2017-06-16, 02:31 AM

Im just not sure a (M) Warlock could summon a (H) greataxe 'in his hand' in the first place. The ability sort of infers that you need to summon a weapon you can actually wield.

Nor am I sure that he retains proficiency in it once he polymorphs himself. Its not entirely clear if the ability to grant the creator proficiency is a feature of the weapon itself (once created) that remains regardless of your changing shape, or of the class feature itself (which dissapears on being polymorphed).

Broadly speaking I dont have a problem with a Blade-lock summoning the blade in his natural form, then the weapon sticking around once his shape changes.

Its just the PC (once polymorphed) is now a monkey. Id expect the player to play his character... well... as a monkey.

Run around, smash stuff, scream a lot. Hurl his poo at things. Eat bannanas. That kind of thing.

Isn't a monkey: is just in monkey form, so doesn't need to play as a monkey: this is what we've been discussing.

Edit: and wouldn't keep Proficiency.

RSP

2017-06-16, 02:34 AM

Also the other half of this post has been left abandoned: could an enlarged Warlock summon a Large type weapon?

Malifice

2017-06-16, 03:03 AM

Isn't a monkey: is just in monkey form, so doesn't need to play as a monkey: this is what we've been discussing.

Rene Descartes eat your heart out. Cogito Ergo Sum and all that.

It is a monkey. Its brain is now a monkeys brain. With a monkeys hormones, biology and mental hardwiring. He no longer has the same makeup of his cerebreal cortex or the same hormones.

The polymorphed persons mind is 'in' there of course. But he acts (and thinks) through the lens of a monkey.

If I got polymorphed into a Monkey, I roleplay the character as the monkey. My LG paladin would be a helpful monkey, who would protect the weak and defend the innocent. My CE Warlock would be a visious monkey.

My Paladin might be proficient in religion. He's forgotten all of that in Monkey form because the Monkey isnt. He might be able to do complex maths (Int 14) normally. He isnt doing that anymore, 'becuase monkey' (Int 7). He is limited by his new monkey brain and physiology.

I play the (paladin/monkey) as [the paladin] suddenly trying to interpret the world around him through the brain, impulses and perception of [a monkey].

I dont think being a monkey is that different to being a human (for evolutionary reasons). That said, Im pretty sure evolution isnt how humans were created in most DnD campaigns (the Gods just made humans, elves, orcs etc).

It would be interesting being turned into a Giant Octopus with (8) different 'brains' capable of thinking independently. Imagine being polymorphed into (having your mind thrust into) that?

Malifice

2017-06-16, 03:04 AM

Also the other half of this post has been left abandoned: could an enlarged Warlock summon a Large type weapon?

Id say he could no problems.

RSP

2017-06-16, 09:07 AM

Rene Descartes eat your heart out. Cogito Ergo Sum and all that.

It is a monkey. Its brain is now a monkeys brain. With a monkeys hormones, biology and mental hardwiring. He no longer has the same makeup of his cerebreal cortex or the same hormones.

The polymorphed persons mind is 'in' there of course. But he acts (and thinks) through the lens of a monkey.

If I got polymorphed into a Monkey, I roleplay the character as the monkey. My LG paladin would be a helpful monkey, who would protect the weak and defend the innocent. My CE Warlock would be a visious monkey.

My Paladin might be proficient in religion. He's forgotten all of that in Monkey form because the Monkey isnt. He might be able to do complex maths (Int 14) normally. He isnt doing that anymore, 'becuase monkey' (Int 7). He is limited by his new monkey brain and physiology.

I play the (paladin/monkey) as [the paladin] suddenly trying to interpret the world around him through the brain, impulses and perception of [a monkey].

I dont think being a monkey is that different to being a human (for evolutionary reasons). That said, Im pretty sure evolution isnt how humans were created in most DnD campaigns (the Gods just made humans, elves, orcs etc).

It would be interesting being turned into a Giant Octopus with (8) different 'brains' capable of thinking independently. Imagine being polymorphed into (having your mind thrust into) that?

Again, a page of discussion on this. You're not playing the spell, RAW. If you'd like to read all we discussed and respond to that I'd be happy to continue with anything you'd like to add, but it's really easier for you to read what we wrote, rather than have us rewrite everything.

Malifice

2017-06-16, 09:36 AM

Maxilian

2017-06-16, 10:53 AM

JackPhoenix

2017-06-16, 11:35 AM

Maxilian

2017-06-16, 11:40 AM

Again, a page of discussion on this. You're not playing the spell, RAW. If you'd like to read all we discussed and respond to that I'd be happy to continue with anything you'd like to add, but it's really easier for you to read what we wrote, rather than have us rewrite everything.

Remember that polymorph does not work as Wild Shape, this would apply with Wildshape (As your mental stats don't change, and you could keep your class features, but Polymorph and True Polymorph also change your mental stats, making you think and act like the creature you were transformed to -but it does not change your alignment)

Maxilian

2017-06-16, 11:41 AM

Also the other half of this post has been left abandoned: could an enlarged Warlock summon a Large type weapon?

Something that i would like to point out, if you do this, it will not take the DMG damage (as those are only for mobs, you, at most, would apply it as the Enlarge spell -unless your DM rules otherwise)

RSP

2017-06-16, 02:24 PM

A bold claim, considering RAW you turn into a monkey in all respects but alignment and personality

Again, you're adding to what the spell does. Nowhere does it say "you turn into a monkey in all respects but alignment and personality." You're also not considering what personality entails. You're also not considering what Int does in this game/edition.

RSP

2017-06-16, 02:34 PM

Remember that polymorph does not work as Wild Shape, this would apply with Wildshape (As your mental stats don't change, and you could keep your class features, but Polymorph and True Polymorph also change your mental stats, making you think and act like the creature you were transformed to -but it does not change your alignment)

Well aware of what the spell does, as mentioned numerous times already. You're not realizing the spell states you take a "form" and swap out stats, not memories.

As Jack stated in his example, an Int 2 Wizard can know 4 languages and remember -5+Wizard level spells (but min 1). They have all the memories their background provides.

Having an Int mod of -5 means they get a -5 on Int associated skill Checks.

RSP

2017-06-16, 02:41 PM

Something that i would like to point out, if you do this, it will not take the DMG damage (as those are only for mobs, you, at most, would apply it as the Enlarge spell -unless your DM rules otherwise)

Up for debate. The RAW is a Giant with a Great Sword does 6d6. There is no RAW of what happens if a PC picks up that weapon and tries to use it.

Saying it is, RAW, one way or the other is incorrect. Either way it's DM's call.

For reference:

Greatsword: Melee Weapon Attack: +11 to hit, reach 10 ft., one target. Hit: 28 (6d6 + 7) slashing damage.

JackPhoenix

2017-06-16, 05:53 PM

Again, you're adding to what the spell does. Nowhere does it say "you turn into a monkey in all respects but alignment and personality." You're also not considering what personality entails. You're also not considering what Int does in this game/edition.

No, I think you're adding to what the spell does. Its text says "(target) retains its alignment and personality", not "alignment, personality and memories". RAW, alignment and personality are the only things you got to keep in your changed form.

So, let's proceed to what personality entails. In 5e, personality can be defined as either the "personal characteristics", which include personality traits, ideals, bonds and flaws, or for stricter reading, only personality traits themselves. Note that some personality traits may be inappropriate for a beast, because they involve concepts beyond what animals can understand, but I would leave that up to players.

For Int, I think we're in agreement that all it does is a value of modifier to Int checks, saves and other instances where does that matter. RAW, it doesn't seem to limit or describe creature's actual intellectual capabilities: apes, despite Int 7 (or 6 for non-giant version), aren't noted as being anything more than mere animals (lacking any description at all, my guess that we should default to their real world capabilities, as with other animals), while Int 5 ogres, although being mentioned as notably stupid, have a society and culture, understand and speak a language(s) (though they do not have their own language, but few things in D&D have) and are capable of toolmaking (yes, ape can throw a rock or use a stick which ARE tools, but those aren't anywhere near crude clothes or spears ogres can make). Zombies are mindless, but their Int score is higher than most animals (or the aforementioned orc wizard), etc.

Well aware of what the spell does, as mentioned numerous times already. You're not realizing the spell states you take a "form" and swap out stats, not memories.

As mentioned above, the spell also doesn't states you keep your memories. But let's focus on the word "form" you've used few times.

Form, unlike personality, doesn't have definition in 5e, so we're forced to go with real word definition. Now, the problem with that is that it doesn't really offers an answer, because if we look into dictionary, we'll see that it allows interpretations supporting view of either of us. From freedictionary, there's both "a. The shape and structure of an object and b. The body or outward appearance of a person or an animal; figure" which agrees with your view that only your body changes, and "a. The way in which a thing exists, acts, or manifests itself", which supports my view that "form of a beast" should include acting as a beast, because you are a beast for the duration.

You know, at this point, I'm willing to admit that both of our views are valid, though neither is the only possible truth, because the text isn't 100% clear on the matter. We can both go with our own interpretations in our games, and I think I'll stop discussing this matter, because it doesn't seem either of us can convince the other to change his mind. (i.e. let's agree to disagree)

RSP

2017-06-17, 10:54 AM

No, I think you're adding to what the spell does. Its text says "(target) retains its alignment and personality", not "alignment, personality and memories". RAW, alignment and personality are the only things you got to keep in your changed form.

I'm going by the RAW. You're adding words like "only" and rewriting what the spell says. The spell says what it does: you use the stats of the new form.

If a stat = memories, then there would be only 30 different sets of memories available to all characters, as Int goes 1-30. That's clearly not what the game entails. As Int does not equal a set of memories, then you can't say changing Int equals changing memories.

So, let's proceed to what personality entails. In 5e, personality can be defined as either the "personal characteristics", which include personality traits, ideals, bonds and flaws, or for stricter reading, only personality traits themselves. Note that some personality traits may be inappropriate for a beast, because they involve concepts beyond what animals can understand, but I would leave that up to players.

Personality "can" have lots of different definitions. Please cite where yours is coming from.

For Int, I think we're in agreement that all it does is a value of modifier to Int checks, saves and other instances where does that matter. RAW, it doesn't seem to limit or describe creature's actual intellectual capabilities: apes, despite Int 7 (or 6 for non-giant version), aren't noted as being anything more than mere animals (lacking any description at all, my guess that we should default to their real world capabilities, as with other animals), while Int 5 ogres, although being mentioned as notably stupid, have a society and culture, understand and speak a language(s) (though they do not have their own language, but few things in D&D have) and are capable of toolmaking (yes, ape can throw a rock or use a stick which ARE tools, but those aren't anywhere near crude clothes or spears ogres can make). Zombies are mindless, but their Int score is higher than most animals (or the aforementioned orc wizard), etc.

Int adds a mod to Skill Checks and saves, we can agree on that. The rest is immaterial. In D&D, a Giant Ape can learn language (or tool proficiency) using the downtime rules, and speak just like an ogre. This is a difference between the game and the real world.

It sounds like you agree Int is a stat that adjusts Skill Checks and Saves. Do you also agree Memory is not a stat?

The spell says "The target's game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the chosen beast."

So what stat equals memories? If there isn't one, then the spell doesn't effect them.

Tanarii

2017-06-17, 11:08 AM

It sounds like you agree Int is a stat that adjusts Skill Checks and Saves. Do you also agree Memory is not a stat?
I think this is what it comes down to. Memories are many things in D&D.

Mechanically, they're proficiencies, they're class features, they're what can be recalled on an Int check (possibly modified by a Lore skill proficiency bonus), and they're embedded in Personality traits. As far as those thing go, we know exactly how polymorphism affects 'memory' in each case, because the spell tells us how those mechanical things are affected or not affected.

Non-mechanically, they're also what the player remembers, and what the player decides the PC remembers, and possibly (depending on the specific game table's playing style) what the DM tells the player the PC does or doesn't remember. Those things aren't specified by the spell, so there's wiggle room for interpretation by the player and DM.

Personally, given all the mechanical memory effect changed and not changed, I'm somewhere in the middle. Definitely not "all memories are retained and the PC is themselves in an animal body" because Int being lowered and proficiency and class skills being lost make it clear this is not the case. Definitely not "all memories are lost and the PC is just an animal" because personality not being lost makes it clear this is not the case. Any memory that doesn't involve a class skill, proficiency, or Int check called for by the DM, will need to be a case by case decision on if it is temporarily lost by the player.

RSP

2017-06-17, 12:11 PM

I think this is what it comes down to. Memories are many things in D&D.

Mechanically, they're proficiencies, they're class features, they're what can be recalled on an Int check (possibly modified by a Lore skill proficiency bonus), and they're embedded in Personality traits. As far as those thing go, we know exactly how polymorphism affects 'memory' in each case, because the spell tells us how those mechanical things are affected or not affected.

Non-mechanically, they're also what the player remembers, and what the player decides the PC remembers, and possibly (depending on the specific game table's playing style) what the DM tells the player the PC does or doesn't remember. Those things aren't specified by the spell, so there's wiggle room for interpretation by the player and DM.

Personally, given all the mechanical memory effect changed and not changed, I'm somewhere in the middle. Definitely not "all memories are retained and the PC is themselves in an animal body" because Int being lowered and proficiency and class skills being lost make it clear this is not the case. Definitely not "all memories are lost and the PC is just an animal" because personality not being lost makes it clear this is not the case. Any memory that doesn't involve a class skill, proficiency, or Int check called for by the DM, will need to be a case by case decision on if it is temporarily lost by the player.

So to reiterate: I wouldn't require a roll to see if someone remembers who they are, their characters background, etc, because I would never make any PC, regardless of Int score make those Checks. A Fighter who dumped Int isn't going to have to roll to see if he remembers what a sword is everytime he wants to draw it and fight. Nothing in the spell says this changes.

So I go back to my earlier question: if you think a character Polymorphed into a Giant Ape can't remember this with an Int 7, do you require Int dumped non-Polymorphed characters to make these rolls?

Tanarii

2017-06-17, 12:19 PM

I didn't mean to imply by "or Int check called for by the DM" that he should necessarily call for additional Int checks for a ploymorphed character.

Int checks are entirely appropriate when a player can't remember someone but the character might. Passive and automatic success for that are best any time it's a secret check or there is no time crunch (respectively), especially out of combat. But when it's a time sensitive thing (especially in combat) it's an Int check. That's why I wrote that.

Personally, I'd say that's not for simple obvious stuff, that stuff should just be an automatic success. Best used for 'plot' (even though I don't like that word) or 'tactical' purposes, when the player has forgotten something they already learned earlier in the adventure, and it's possible the PC might not be able to recall under the gun.

JackPhoenix

2017-06-17, 01:37 PM

I said I'm dropping from this discussion, but I address this point

I'm going by the RAW. You're adding words like "only" and rewriting what the spell says. The spell says what it does: you use the stats of the new form.

I'm going by the RAW. You're adding words like "memories" and rewriting what the spell says. The spell says what it does: you retains your alignment and personality.

Sorry for the mocking tone, but I've already said this in my previous post: the spell is unclear on the matter, RAW supports both of our claims and each of us has decided to choose the interpretation we like.

Personality "can" have lots of different definitions. Please cite where yours is coming from.

PHB, 123. The only definition that matters, because it's the only definition available in the books.

In D&D, a Giant Ape can learn language (or tool proficiency) using the downtime rules, and speak just like an ogre. This is a difference between the game and the real world.

Please cite the rules saying animals can learn languages or other proficiencies.

It sounds like you agree Int is a stat that adjusts Skill Checks and Saves. Do you also agree Memory is not a stat?

Agreed... however....

The spell says "The target's game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the chosen beast."

So what stat equals memories? If there isn't one, then the spell doesn't effect them.

The spell also says you retain your alignment or personality. If memories aren't alignment or what 5e D&D refers to as personality, then the spell doesn't allow you to keep them.

So to reiterate: I wouldn't require a roll to see if someone remembers who they are, their characters background, etc, because I would never make any PC, regardless of Int score make those Checks. A Fighter who dumped Int isn't going to have to roll to see if he remembers what a sword is everytime he wants to draw it and fight. Nothing in the spell says this changes.

So I go back to my earlier question: if you think a character Polymorphed into a Giant Ape can't remember this with an Int 7, do you require Int dumped non-Polymorphed characters to make these rolls?

That is unfair comparison, though. Difference between fighter with Int 7 and the same fighter polymorphed to a giant ape is that the later was turned into animal. It's like asking if I also ask every character to make 3 Con saves to avoid being petrified when I ask them to do so when they are affected by Flesh to Stone.

RSP

2017-06-17, 03:34 PM

The spell also says you retain your alignment or personality. If memories aren't alignment or what 5e D&D refers to as personality, then the spell doesn't allow you to keep them.

The line regarding retaining alignment and personality is regarding the swapping of stats. Here's the full description:

"The target's game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the chosen beast. It retains its alignment and personality."

Since alignment is listed in the stats for beasts, they needed to specify that it didn't change. Likewise, since the MM has write ups detailing some beasts' personalities, they needed to specify those transfer over.
For instance, the Giant wolf spider:

"Smaller than a Giant Spider, a giant wolf Spider hunts prey across open ground or hides in a burrow or crevice, or in a hidden cavity beneath debris."

If the clause about personality wasn't in the spell, you would have to RP a PC Polymorphed into a Giant Wolf Spider by hunting prey across open ground or hiding in crevices or holes, because that's the personality of a Giant Wolf Spider.

The clause is in there, though.

Likewise, there's no mention of memories because they're unaffected. Memories are not a stat, so they aren't transfered by taking a Beast's form with Polymorph.

JackPhoenix

2017-06-17, 04:58 PM

The line regarding retaining alignment and personality is regarding the swapping of stats. Here's the full description:

"The target's game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the chosen beast. It retains its alignment and personality."

Since alignment is listed in the stats for beasts, they needed to specify that it didn't change. Likewise, since the MM has write ups detailing some beasts' personalities, they needed to specify those transfer over.
For instance, the Giant wolf spider:

"Smaller than a Giant Spider, a giant wolf Spider hunts prey across open ground or hides in a burrow or crevice, or in a hidden cavity beneath debris."

If the clause about personality wasn't in the spell, you would have to RP a PC Polymorphed into a Giant Wolf Spider by hunting prey across open ground or hiding in crevices or holes, because that's the personality of a Giant Wolf Spider.

The clause is in there, though.

Likewise, there's no mention of memories because they're unaffected. Memories are not a stat, so they aren't transfered by taking a Beast's form with Polymorph.

While alignment is part of the statistics, personality isn't (well, that's not strictly true, some specific named NPCs in adventure paths DO have ideals, bonds, etc. listed, but certainly not random monsters or animals), so it wouldn't be changed anyway, yet it is specifically one of the two things the spell allows you to retain, unlike memory... and what are you describing isn't even personality, it's just fluff. Or are you claiming that, from the same MM page, hunter shark's personality is being "smaller than a giant shark but larger and fiercer than a reef shark", and if your personality stays the same, the polymorphed hunter shark somehow ISN'T smaller than giant shark, but is instead... I don't know, "idolizing a particular hero of its faith, and constantly refering to that person's deeds and example" (the first personality trait listed in PHB)?

RSP

2017-06-17, 10:13 PM

While alignment is part of the statistics, personality isn't (well, that's not strictly true, some specific named NPCs in adventure paths DO have ideals, bonds, etc. listed, but certainly not random monsters or animals), so it wouldn't be changed anyway, yet it is specifically one of the two things the spell allows you to retain, unlike memory... and what are you describing isn't even personality, it's just fluff. Or are you claiming that, from the same MM page, hunter shark's personality is being "smaller than a giant shark but larger and fiercer than a reef shark", and if your personality stays the same, the polymorphed hunter shark somehow ISN'T smaller than giant shark, but is instead... I don't know, "idolizing a particular hero of its faith, and constantly refering to that person's deeds and example" (the first personality trait listed in PHB)?

Some absolutely is fluff. Other stuff tells you how the creature acts. The point of the clause in Polymorph is to make sure how the creature acts isn't part of the stat transfer.

And again, how can you "idolize a particular hero of [a] faith" while in Giant Ape form if you can't remember the hero, what idolizing something means, or what faith you are?