Unfairly powerful monsters?

[danielxcutter]

As title - I've heard about That Damn Crab, the Clockwork Horrors, and that undead incorporeal swarm thing that was CR 3... any others that you guys have in mind?

Also, could you guys elaborate about the Crab and the Horrors? I'm not that good at number-crunching enough to be certain of them by myself... though even I know that my third example is seriously OP. I mean, swarm, so no Magic Missile, incorporeal, so no non-force damaging spells, and undead, so no mind-effecting spells... and don't even start talking about the mundanes. :smallannoyed:

[Eldariel]

That damn crab (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a) just has the numbers, the reach and the invulnerabilities to make a low level party ill-equipped to do anything about it.

Immune to mind-affecting so no Color Spray/Sleep, 10ft reach and 40ft movement so hard to attack without getting hit back, insane damage in the hit > Improved Grab > Constrict and very high Hit and Grapple modifiers alongside decent AC and absurd HP.

At CR3 it's just way, way too strong, a nigh' certain "Kill 2 characters for food and walk away"-encounter for a level 1 party. The numbers are just too high. The Wizard/Wizard/Tripper Barb/Tripper Barb with Grease/Enlarge Person/Ray of Enfeeblement has a shot but even then, it has a lot of AC and HP. And that's about the best level 1 party for combat vs overpowrting encounters which this should not be by CR (CR6 is overpowering for a level 1 party of 4). Nor should such party line-up be expected.

[danielxcutter]

That damn crab (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a) just has the numbers, the reach and the invulnerabilities to make a low level party ill-equipped to do anything about it.

Immune to mind-affecting so no Color Spray/Sleep, 10ft reach and 40ft movement so hard to attack without getting hit back, insane damage in the hit > Improved Grab > Constrict and very high Hit and Grapple modifiers alongside decent AC and absurd HP.

At CR3 it's just way, way too strong, a nigh' certain "Kill 2 characters for food and walk away"-encounter for a level 1 party. The numbers are just too high. The Wizard/Wizard/Tripper Barb/Tripper Barb with Grease/Enlarge Person/Ray of Enfeeblement has a shot but even then, it has a lot of AC and HP. And that's about the best level 1 party for combat vs overpowrting encounters which this should not be by CR (CR6 is overpowering for a level 1 party of 4). Nor should such party line-up be expected.

Leeeet's see... no, no you do not give a CR 3 monster a +19 to grapple checks and I'm not even sure if that counts size, WTF why does this have more AC than a front-liner with a set of full-plate when most people don't even have a set of full plate yet, why in the nine hells does this have 66 hit points as a CR 3 monster that isn't even undead, etc.

Did I get it right?

[Inevitability]

The Adamantine Horror is overpowered because it gets CL 14 Implosion, Disjunction and Disintegrate at-will while being CR 9. It can cover the entire party with a Disjunction (destroying much of their magical gear and buff spells in the process), then force individual party members to save or take 28d6 damage (a barbarian with 18+ constitution at full health is about the only thing that can survive the average damage), or be killed outright (a DC 24 fortitude save versus death is unsurprisingly quite hard at these levels).

[Zanos]

The Drowned(MMIII 46) is an old favorite, which has an aura that forces increasing difficulty con checks, not fort saves, and if you fail 1 you immediately become unconscious and start drowning. They're also 20 HD undead at CR 8 with good hide and move silently.

Also it has fast healing 5 and unholy toughness, because **** you.

[danielxcutter]

The Adamantine Horror is overpowered because it gets CL 14 Implosion, Disjunction and Disintegrate at-will while being CR 9. It can cover the entire party with a Disjunction (destroying much of their magical gear and buff spells in the process), then force individual party members to save or take 28d6 damage (a barbarian with 18+ constitution at full health is about the only thing that can survive the average damage), or be killed outright (a DC 24 fortitude save versus death is unsurprisingly quite hard at these levels).

I heard that the Horrors in general are OP, but the Adamantine Horror is so notorious it's been mentioned on TvTropes. Disintegrate? On a CR 9? Players don't get that for two more levels at least! Implosion? That's a 9th-level SoD! And dear Pelor, Disjunction?! That's not a powerful monster, that's the Pokemon that someone's 14-year-old little brother drew on the back of his biology textbook! :smallfurious:

Edit:


The Drowned(MMIII 46) is an old favorite, which has an aura that forces increasing difficulty con checks, not fort saves, and if you fail 1 you immediately become unconscious and start drowning. They're also 20 HD undead at CR 8 with good hide and move silently.

Also it has fast healing 5 and unholy toughness, because **** you.

Yeeeeeeaaaaaah, I remember the party in Saph's Seven Kingdoms campaign journal going up against them. Near-TPK just because the last member(who was the second optimized. Go figure.) made the save and got the hells out of there.

[Svata]

Allips/Shadows as well. Incorporeal enemies before you reliably have access to magic weaponry is just unfair. If your wizard and cleric didn't prep Magic Weapon (or Magic missile for the wizard) you're not winning that fight. With the fact that they do stat damage (1d4 Wis/1d6 Str respectively) and can move through walls (and the shadow even has a 40 ft movement speed!) you're probably losing someone.

[danielxcutter]

Allips/Shadows as well. Incorporeal enemies before you reliably have access to magic weaponry is just unfair. If your wizard and cleric didn't prep Magic Weapon (or Magic missile for the wizard) you're not winning that fight. With the fact that they do stat damage (1d4 Wis/1d6 Str respectively) and can move through walls (and the shadow even has a 40 ft movement speed!) you're probably losing someone.

I remember that Allips can KO the Tarrasque and Shadows win against about 90% of the MM. What about against a higher-level party?

[Eldariel]

I remember that Allips can KO the Tarrasque and Shadows win against about 90% of the MM. What about against a higher-level party?

High level parties only have trouble with the "inside the walls"-bit. Generally beatable. Allip's Babble and temp HP on hit and stat DRAIN make it the worst tho. And the fact that stat attacks ignore HP and touch attacks most AC making a high level party just as squishy as a low level one.

Level 1-4 party probably has scrolls of Magic Weapon for incorporeals but Walls + 50% miss chance + AC make damage unconsistent. They just keep up the Temp HP buffer and shrug the occasional hit off. If the beatsticks can act in the first place due to Babble.

[martixy]

The Drowned(MMIII 46) is an old favorite, which has an aura that forces increasing difficulty con checks, not fort saves, and if you fail 1 you immediately become unconscious and start drowning. They're also 20 HD undead at CR 8 with good hide and move silently.

Also it has fast healing 5 and unholy toughness, because **** you.

Oh, Drowned are freakin awesome. Scary. But awesome.

Cumulative DC save-or-die aura. :D

One of my personal favourites is Bleakborn though [LM/86]. Similar idea(damage aura) and it screws with your players in fun ways(as a cold-based monster, fire is the LAST thing you wanna use against it).

[danielxcutter]

Oh, Drowned are freakin awesome. Scary. But awesome.

Cumulative DC save-or-die aura. :D

One of my personal favourites is Bleakborn though [LM/86]. Similar idea(damage aura) and it screws with your players in fun ways(as a cold-based monster, fire is the LAST thing you wanna use against it).

Why, do they blow up or something?

[Jay R]

If you can't beat it, don't waste time complaining about CR - run!

[BWR]

If you can't beat it, don't wast time complaining about CR - run!

The problem is that in some of the cases you can't run fast enough.

[Kantaki]

The problem is that in some of the cases you can't run fast enough.

You don't have to run faster than the monster. Only faster than the slowest member of the party.:smallamused:

[Grod_The_Giant]

If you can't beat it, don't wast time complaining about CR - run!
The problem isn't monsters that are stronger than the party, it's monsters that the DM (and players!) doesn't know are stronger than the party. You generally want to prepare an overpowering encounter differently than a normal one, and "right after That Damn Crab just one-shotted the Barbarian" isn't a good time to figure that out.

[unseenmage]

Monstrous Compendium: Monsters of Faerun is chick full of creatures that are too strong for their CR, even after applying the 3.5 update.

Makes a lot of them excellent subjects for undead and the Effigy templates.

[nolongerchaos]

There's the ever-run runehound from MM3, CR 3. It boasts:
50 ft movement
10 ft reach (and combat reflexes)
500 ft blindsight
Immunity to flanking
Web-like range attack, 100 ft range w/ 1d4 cool down
A separate 5d6 acid range attack, also sporting a 100 ft range w/ 1d4 cool down
DR 5/sliver
Fast Healing 3

It's a ridiculously powerful kiter, and just in case you manage to run away, it has a supernatural ability that gives it +20 to tracking and it'll probably be back to full hp when it finds your party thanks to fast healing.

[heavyfuel]

The Adamantine Horror is overpowered because it gets CL 14 Implosion, Disjunction and Disintegrate at-will while being CR 9.

I think this is an example of a monster that sounds totally overpowered in a vacuum, but when you analyse the entire encounter, it's not really

Looking at the "Organization" entry, we can see that it brings a bunch of its friends to the fight, and this raises the encounter CR from 9 to about 13, depending on the number of friends. Against a level 13 party, its abilities are still very strong, but hardly absurd

However, it having measly 88 HP and +7 bonus to Spot and Listen (all of its friends have even worse bonus), it's so incredibly easy to sneak up on one and one-shot it before any harm is done.

A 13 level party should have 0 problems with this encounter, assuming they don't opt for a direct confrontation.

And isn't this the definition of a CR appropriate encounter? Easy unless the players screw up? If anything, I'd say the Adamantine Horror is pretty good example of the CR system in action

[noob]

Well I kind of like the following monster(but it is not in any monster manuals):wisp with levels in wizard and then dips in prcs.
it is hardly more overpowered than a wizard but the natural invisibility and magic immunity are correct defences for that creature that will have a wizard caster level superior to its own cr.

[Inevitability]

I think this is an example of a monster that sounds totally overpowered in a vacuum, but when you analyse the entire encounter, it's not really

Looking at the "Organization" entry, we can see that it brings a bunch of its friends to the fight, and this raises the encounter CR from 9 to about 13, depending on the number of friends. Against a level 13 party, its abilities are still very strong, but hardly absurd

However, it having measly 88 HP and +7 bonus to Spot and Listen (all of its friends have even worse bonus), it's so incredibly easy to sneak up on one and one-shot it before any harm is done.

A 13 level party should have 0 problems with this encounter, assuming they don't opt for a direct confrontation.

And isn't this the definition of a CR appropriate encounter? Easy unless the players screw up? If anything, I'd say the Adamantine Horror is pretty good example of the CR system in action

The thing is, lots of DMs skip over the organization line, because they assume a CR 9 monster should be a CR 9 monster regardless of encounter makeup (an assumption that is not entirely unreasonable).

[Amphetryon]

The thing is, lots of DMs skip over the organization line, because they assume a CR 9 monster should be a CR 9 monster regardless of encounter makeup (an assumption that is not entirely unreasonable).

Worse, many DMs I've known consider the "Organization" entry to be a contributing factor to a given Monster's CR. "Those friends the Adamantine Horror brings to the fight? They're part of why it's a CR 9, and not lower."

[Svata]

I think this is an example of a monster that sounds totally overpowered in a vacuum, but when you analyse the entire encounter, it's not really

Looking at the "Organization" entry, we can see that it brings a bunch of its friends to the fight, and this raises the encounter CR from 9 to about 13, depending on the number of friends. Against a level 13 party, its abilities are still very strong, but hardly absurd

However, it having measly 88 HP and +7 bonus to Spot and Listen (all of its friends have even worse bonus), it's so incredibly easy to sneak up on one and one-shot it before any harm is done.

A 13 level party should have 0 problems with this encounter, assuming they don't opt for a direct confrontation.

And isn't this the definition of a CR appropriate encounter? Easy unless the players screw up? If anything, I'd say the Adamantine Horror is pretty good example of the CR system in action

It still has multiple 9th level spells. Also, disjunction wrecks EVERYTHING a party has forever. So there's that too.

[martixy]

Why, do they blow up or something?

Counter-intuitively, it heals them. :smalleek:

[Melcar]

Giant Cockroach!

[heavyfuel]

The thing is, lots of DMs skip over the organization line, because they assume a CR 9 monster should be a CR 9 monster regardless of encounter makeup (an assumption that is not entirely unreasonable).


Worse, many DMs I've known consider the "Organization" entry to be a contributing factor to a given Monster's CR. "Those friends the Adamantine Horror brings to the fight? They're part of why it's a CR 9, and not lower."

While these situations are indeed common, it doesn't change the fact that the Adamantine Horror was given the correct CR


It still has multiple 9th level spells. Also, disjunction wrecks EVERYTHING a party has forever. So there's that too.

9th level spells you don't get to use are worse than 1st level spells you do get to use.

Even if the players do opt for a direct confrontation, with a low +4 to initative, there are plenty of things the players can do to it before it gets a chance to act.

[The Viscount]

Counter-intuitively, it heals them. :smalleek:

Also contingent healing makes it unclear if they can be destroyed by hitpoint damage at all, though turning still works.

I'm going to mention the Raiment as maybe not quite unfair, but borderline. At CR 1 it deals a minimum of 6 damage in a full attack and has DR 5/magic, which the party is unlikely to overcome. And it's a grappler, so at those levels a bad roll could be it.

Skulking Cyst as a CR 4 monster with the ability to hit you with a necrotic cyst. By itself that gives you a penalty to saves vs necromancy effects and more damage from undead, but it also makes you vulnerable to the mother cyst spells, which can do some very bad things to you. The real problem comes when you see that there is only one way to remove a necrotic cyst, and that's with a DC 20 Heal check that takes one hour, no taking 20. If they fail the check, the target dies. This one has special mention because it's one of the few times the party can actually kill one of their own members by accident long after the battle has ended. And if the players don't know this fact and go in blind, they're not likely to be able to hit that high without some serious investment.

The Plague Blight is a unique undead with the worst disease in existence. To begin with, there's no duration listed on his aura that nauseates (so until countered with spells?) He's got acceptable health for CR 6, but he halves all physical damage before applying DR, so martials may end up doing very little. His disease imparted by slam has no incubation period and deals 1d4 Con every round. You can stop it with two successful saving throws, but every failed one makes it harder to hit the DC. Remove disease can end it, but if your party doesn't have access to that spell or doesn't have it prepared, that character has a very good chance of dying. As one final spit in the eye, once you die from it, if someone doesn't cast remove disease on the body in 24 hours, it crumbles into nothing. That means no remains, so you can only be brought back by true resurrection. Hope the party has the money to buy access to it.

The Night Twist, as the first monster I could think of, standing in for any monster that has a specific effect that can only be undone by a spell the party doesn't have access to (there are several). This one in particular is CR 12 and has a death curse that requires lesser wish to remove, which isn't on the table until next level. Its despair song that hits everything in 75 miles and prevents it from sleeping until they fight the night twist can make for a miserable time. If the spellcaster fails their save and doesn't have a teleportation spell ready, you have to travel there, and that's not fun. There's also no mention of successful save providing immunity, so everyone has to save every night I guess.
EDIT: There's errata for the night twist that changes its despair song to 750 feet instead, so now that ability doesn't really make sense and just starts the encounter a little sooner, but it's better than before. Still got that curse though.

[martixy]

Also contingent healing makes it unclear if they can be destroyed by hitpoint damage at all, though turning still works.

Gonna go with no, to make clerics feel good about themselves.

[Zaq]

The cranium rat swarm (Fiend Folio, pp. 167-169) is pretty bad. A lesser pack is CR 2, an average pack is CR 5, and a greater pack is CR 11. The greater pack might be a "fair" fight at level 11, but the average pack and the lesser pack are way, way under-CR'd. They've got spells. They've got automatic swarm damage. They've got immunity to weapon damage. They've got Mind Blast (obnoxiously giant cone of save-or-be-stunned for 3d4 rounds, usable at will for the average pack and every 2 rounds for the lesser pack, and I believe that doesn't conflict with doing automatic swarm damage). They've got an automatic nauseating effect on their swarm damage effect. They've got a hivemind (and they're smart enough to use basic tactics; they're very much NOT mindless). And it's faster than you (40 ft move speed, and it doesn't need to spend actions to do swarm damage). And when you kill a pack, it turns into a pack that's one step lower (greater turns to average, average turns to lesser, and lesser actually dies), so you aren't done when you think you're done (do you have enough AoE spells to keep getting rid of them? Do you have more than one character using those AoE spells? Can that character keep making Will saves against Mind Blast?). And two swarms can combine to become a bigger meaner swarm, though I'm not sure if they often would.

Oh, and did I mention that the Mind Blast has a highish save DC? DC 17 for the average pack. It's not unpassable, but at level 5, even a Cleric is probably only going to have about a +8 or +9 Will save, depending on magic items (so they save about 60-70ish% of the time). A Wizard is going to be closer to maybe +5 or +6 (so they save around 45ish% of the time), and anyone who doesn't have a high base Will save can pretty much just forget it. Heironeous help you if there are multiple swarms forcing multiple saves per round.

In fact, let's think about the "immune to weapon damage" thing some more. You pretty much need to have AoE magic to kill these things, right? Right. If you're lucky and have a DFA in the party, that's a boon, but in a "normal" party, you're pretty much hoping that you've got a blaster Wizard. (Single-target magic explicitly doesn't work, other than mind-affecting stuff.) Well, the average pack has 90 HP. That's . . . actually rather a lot of HP at CR 5. Like, a lot. Just going through the MM1 in alphabetical order and looking for CR 5 things, the achaierai (an unspellable word if ever there were one) has 39 HP. A large animated object has 52. An adult arrowhawk has 38. A greater barghest has 67. And none of those things are immune to weapon damage. So we're already unnaturally defensive just from HP alone, but then we add in "immune to most of the party."

So how many boom spells IS the Wizard packing at level 5? Assuming the Wizard never ends up stunned and never ends up nauseated (those are two not-very-good assumptions, mind you), how many spells do they have to cast to reduce the swarm to 0 HP? We can assume that the swarm is going to fail its saves (they take a –10 penalty to saves vs. area damage), but let's not assume a hyper-optimized Wizard. (A hyper-optimized Wizard likely isn't going to focus on area spells and/or likely isn't going to focus on boom spells at all, for that matter).

Bog-standard Fireball is 5d6 at level 5, and you'll have what, maybe three of those at best? (One from levels, one from INT, one from Elven Generalist or Evoker? MAYBE plus one more if you're a Focused Evoker? A level 5 Wizard can't afford a Ring of Wizardry III or too many 3rd level Pearls of Power, and I don't think they're likely to have 24+ INT.) Probably closer to two if you aren't an Evoker, though if you aren't an Evoker, you probably won't prep two Fireballs. Anyway. The average on 5d6 is 17.5. So if your Fireball isn't doing more than 5d6 (remember, CR 5), you need an average of over five of them to chew through 90 HP. You'll need support from lower-level slots as well, but I hope that you still have actual AoE spells in those lower-level slots (so Burning Hands good, Magic Missile bad), and I hope that you weren't doing cold damage, because the swarm is resistant to that. (Because screw you, that's why.) The swarm is susceptible to mind-affecting spells, but I don't know too many of those that a level 5 party will have on tap that can actually solve this encounter without actually doing damage. Especially since the swarm has 12 HD, which puts them out of range of a lot of the good low-level mind-affecting stuff, at least out of the PHB.

So again, we've got a Wizard somehow not getting stunned or nauseated (or killed) for long enough to unload, um, rather a lot of spell slots, and that's assuming that the Wizard actually prepped lots of AoE boom spells, which most Wizards just plain don't do. (Even unoptimized "idiot Wizards" who actually think that unmodified Fireball is a good spell are probably going to have a few spells like Magic Missile and Scorching Ray prepped rather than all AoEs all the time.) Why am I laying this all on the Wizard? Because a typical level 5 party (especially the kind that WotC thinks is "normal"—we all know that they allegedly balanced around having a Rogue, Fighter, Wizard, and Cleric) isn't likely to have more than one character who can reliably dish out magical AoE damage. Maybe two at the most, but I'll be honest—I've never actually seen a party like that. And if you're doing weapon damage or single-target damage, you literally cannot help with this thing. (The swarm laughs at your alchemist's fire—alchemist's fire does single target damage, which the swarm ignores, and 1 point of splash damage, which the swarm takes. That doesn't count as helping.) But let's say that the Wizard somehow gets off the seven or eight AoE spells necessary to get through 90 HP. Guess what? YOU'RE NOT DONE! The average pack turns into a lesser pack! You've got another 45 HP to chew through! How many spell slots do you have left? Sure, the lesser pack is less powerful, but it still stuns for 3d4 rounds (which basically means that failing a single save against Mind Blast will get you locked up, since the swarm can keep spamming it on you and re-upping the stun while doing automatic swarm damage). So you really have to do 135 HP of damage before you've killed this monster. If you're doing d6s of damage, you'll need an average of about 39d6 to kill both the average pack and the following lesser pack. At level 5. Without succumbing to the stun or the nausea or the raw damage. This is considered to be "one monster."

But yeah. Nothing with immunity to weapon damage (but still 90 HP to chew through, mind you, and that's just the first form!) and an at-will cone of "save or sit out the entire bloody encounter" is CR 5. Not even close. I once had a reasonably optimized (nothing crazy, but nothing even close to "sword-and-board Fighter, healbot Cleric, etc."—I think we had a Warblade, a PsyWar, and other things around that approximate power range) level 6 or 7 party go up against one lesser swarm and one average swarm. I was the GM, and I nerfed them by getting rid of their immunity to weapon damage. (So a nerfed version of a CR 5 and a CR 2 up against four or five characters of level 6 or level 7; unfortunately, the details are lost to time, since this was many years ago.) The party still nearly wiped and had to run away, and it lives in our group's lore as one of the most BS encounters ever. I didn't put it in an especially threatening arena or anything, and it was their first or second encounter of the day, so they weren't exactly running on fumes to begin with. Still, it was bad.

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Anyway. As bad as the cranium rat swarm is, there's another monster that's worse. I think the most under-CR'd monster in the entire freaking game, bar none, is the malaugrym. Monsters of Faerun, p. 64. This post is long enough, so I'll just cut to the chase: it has at-will Shapechange at CL 20. Go ahead. Guess what CR it is. Guess.

FOUR.

It's CR FOUR. But it has at-will Shapechange and can turn into a new thing with 20 HD every round. I don't even need to say why that's bad, do I? I think I can just let it speak for itself. This post is long enough. We'll let it go there. I hate the CRS a bit more (just because I was stupid enough to actually bring it to the table once), but I don't think you'll find a printed monster that's more grossly under-CR'd than the malaugrym. (And if you do, the malaugrym can probably turn into it.)

[TotallyNotEvil]

Far tamer than what's being thrown around here, the Psionic version of the Ullitharid from LoM casts as a Psion 13, keeping all the goodies of the Ullitharid chassis, and is given as CR12 still, like the non-psionic version which "merely" has essentially all the Charms and Dominated as SLAs, IIRC.

[danielxcutter]

The cranium rat swarm (Fiend Folio, pp. 167-169) is pretty bad. A lesser pack is CR 2, an average pack is CR 5, and a greater pack is CR 11. The greater pack might be a "fair" fight at level 11, but the average pack and the lesser pack are way, way under-CR'd.

Okaaaay, let's break this down, shall we?


They've got spells.

You mean SLAs? What kind?


They've got automatic swarm damage.

Okay, par for the course of swarms...


They've got immunity to weapon damage.

'Kay, most swarms are immune to...

What. All weapon damage? Not just slashing and piercing?!


They've got Mind Blast (obnoxiously giant cone of save-or-be-stunned for 3d4 rounds, usable at will for the average pack and every 2 rounds for the lesser pack, and I believe that doesn't conflict with doing automatic swarm damage).

Oooookaaaaaay, that's gotta suck. Hard.


They've got an automatic nauseating effect on their swarm damage effect. They've got a hivemind (and they're smart enough to use basic tactics; they're very much NOT mindless).

Oh gods, who came up with this?


And it's faster than you (40 ft move speed, and it doesn't need to spend actions to do swarm damage). And when you kill a pack, it turns into a pack that's one step lower (greater turns to average, average turns to lesser, and lesser actually dies), so you aren't done when you think you're done (do you have enough AoE spells to keep getting rid of them? Do you have more than one character using those AoE spells? Can that character keep making Will saves against Mind Blast?). And two swarms can combine to become a bigger meaner swarm, though I'm not sure if they often would.

And I thought oozes were a pain in the tailbone... this is just stupid.


Oh, and did I mention that the Mind Blast has a highish save DC? DC 17 for the average pack. It's not unpassable, but at level 5, even a Cleric is probably only going to have about a +8 or +9 Will save, depending on magic items (so they save about 60-70ish% of the time). A Wizard is going to be closer to maybe +5 or +6 (so they save around 45ish% of the time), and anyone who doesn't have a high base Will save can pretty much just forget it. Heironeous help you if there are multiple swarms forcing multiple saves per round.

Adding insult to injury - or more like injury to more injury. Ouch.


In fact, let's think about the "immune to weapon damage" thing some more. You pretty much need to have AoE magic to kill these things, right? Right. If you're lucky and have a DFA in the party, that's a boon, but in a "normal" party, you're pretty much hoping that you've got a blaster Wizard. (Single-target magic explicitly doesn't work, other than mind-affecting stuff.)

This is why I hate swarms in general despite not having gone up against one even once.


Well, the average pack has 90 HP. That's . . . actually rather a lot of HP at CR 5. Like, a lot. Just going through the MM1 in alphabetical order and looking for CR 5 things, the achaierai (an unspellable word if ever there were one) has 39 HP. A large animated object has 52. An adult arrowhawk has 38. A greater barghest has 67. And none of those things are immune to weapon damage. So we're already unnaturally defensive just from HP alone, but then we add in "immune to most of the party."

What.


So how many boom spells IS the Wizard packing at level 5? Assuming the Wizard never ends up stunned and never ends up nauseated (those are two not-very-good assumptions, mind you), how many spells do they have to cast to reduce the swarm to 0 HP? We can assume that the swarm is going to fail its saves (they take a –10 penalty to saves vs. area damage), but let's not assume a hyper-optimized Wizard. (A hyper-optimized Wizard likely isn't going to focus on area spells and/or likely isn't going to focus on boom spells at all, for that matter).

Bog-standard Fireball is 5d6 at level 5, and you'll have what, maybe three of those at best? (One from levels, one from INT, one from Elven Generalist or Evoker? MAYBE plus one more if you're a Focused Evoker? A level 5 Wizard can't afford a Ring of Wizardry III or too many 3rd level Pearls of Power, and I don't think they're likely to have 24+ INT.) Probably closer to two if you aren't an Evoker, though if you aren't an Evoker, you probably won't prep two Fireballs. Anyway. The average on 5d6 is 17.5. So if your Fireball isn't doing more than 5d6 (remember, CR 5), you need an average of over five of them to chew through 90 HP. You'll need support from lower-level slots as well, but I hope that you still have actual AoE spells in those lower-level slots (so Burning Hands good, Magic Missile bad), and I hope that you weren't doing cold damage, because the swarm is resistant to that. (Because screw you, that's why.) The swarm is susceptible to mind-affecting spells, but I don't know too many of those that a level 5 party will have on tap that can actually solve this encounter without actually doing damage. Especially since the swarm has 12 HD, which puts them out of range of a lot of the good low-level mind-affecting stuff, at least out of the PHB.

So again, we've got a Wizard somehow not getting stunned or nauseated (or killed) for long enough to unload, um, rather a lot of spell slots, and that's assuming that the Wizard actually prepped lots of AoE boom spells, which most Wizards just plain don't do. (Even unoptimized "idiot Wizards" who actually think that unmodified Fireball is a good spell are probably going to have a few spells like Magic Missile and Scorching Ray prepped rather than all AoEs all the time.) Why am I laying this all on the Wizard? Because a typical level 5 party (especially the kind that WotC thinks is "normal"—we all know that they allegedly balanced around having a Rogue, Fighter, Wizard, and Cleric) isn't likely to have more than one character who can reliably dish out magical AoE damage. Maybe two at the most, but I'll be honest—I've never actually seen a party like that. And if you're doing weapon damage or single-target damage, you literally cannot help with this thing. (The swarm laughs at your alchemist's fire—alchemist's fire does single target damage, which the swarm ignores, and 1 point of splash damage, which the swarm takes. That doesn't count as helping.) But let's say that the Wizard somehow gets off the seven or eight AoE spells necessary to get through 90 HP. Guess what? YOU'RE NOT DONE! The average pack turns into a lesser pack! You've got another 45 HP to chew through! How many spell slots do you have left? Sure, the lesser pack is less powerful, but it still stuns for 3d4 rounds (which basically means that failing a single save against Mind Blast will get you locked up, since the swarm can keep spamming it on you and re-upping the stun while doing automatic swarm damage). So you really have to do 135 HP of damage before you've killed this monster. If you're doing d6s of damage, you'll need an average of about 39d6 to kill both the average pack and the following lesser pack. At level 5. Without succumbing to the stun or the nausea or the raw damage. This is considered to be "one monster."


This isn't even a monster anymore, this is just falling rocks statted up. Seriously?


But yeah. Nothing with immunity to weapon damage (but still 90 HP to chew through, mind you, and that's just the first form!) and an at-will cone of "save or sit out the entire bloody encounter" is CR 5. Not even close. I once had a reasonably optimized (nothing crazy, but nothing even close to "sword-and-board Fighter, healbot Cleric, etc."—I think we had a Warblade, a PsyWar, and other things around that approximate power range) level 6 or 7 party go up against one lesser swarm and one average swarm. I was the GM, and I nerfed them by getting rid of their immunity to weapon damage. (So a nerfed version of a CR 5 and a CR 2 up against four or five characters of level 6 or level 7; unfortunately, the details are lost to time, since this was many years ago.) The party still nearly wiped and had to run away, and it lives in our group's lore as one of the most BS encounters ever. I didn't put it in an especially threatening arena or anything, and it was their first or second encounter of the day, so they weren't exactly running on fumes to begin with. Still, it was bad.

Can I say, major understatement?



Anyway. As bad as the cranium rat swarm is, there's another monster that's worse.

And to think I thought dragons were bad... well, they are, but those are at least obvious elite monsters.

I think the most under-CR'd monster in the entire freaking game, bar none, is the malaugrym. Monsters of Faerun, p. 64. This post is long enough, so I'll just cut to the chase: it has at-will Shapechange at CL 20. Go ahead. Guess what CR it is. Guess.

FOUR.

It's CR FOUR. But it has at-will Shapechange and can turn into a new thing with 20 HD every round. I don't even need to say why that's bad, do I? I think I can just let it speak for itself. This post is long enough. We'll let it go there. I hate the CRS a bit more (just because I was stupid enough to actually bring it to the table once), but I don't think you'll find a printed monster that's more grossly under-CR'd than the malaugrym. (And if you do, the malaugrym can probably turn into it.)

WHAT.

No wait, that's too small. And let's add some more effects.

WHAT.



Edit:


Far tamer than what's being thrown around here, the Psionic version of the Ullitharid from LoM casts as a Psion 13, keeping all the goodies of the Ullitharid chassis, and is given as CR12 still, like the non-psionic version which "merely" has essentially all the Charms and Dominated as SLAs, IIRC.

That's... actually not so bad. Well, compared to all the bovine manure flying around here, that is.

I forget how good Ullitharids were in the first place, but that sounds like a tough cookie. For some reason, I'm reminded of the Planetar. 17th-level Cleric casting, great stats, and a metric assload of good SLAs.

[Wraith]

Anything with the Pseudonatural Template from the Epic Level Handbook.

There was a big, big debate on this board a while ago when a poster named Avicenex wrote up a monster with a Spell Resistance of 385, and everyone was convinced that it was a typo. Turns out that it really was true - the "Epic Pseudonatural" template intentionally grants HDx5 in SR, among a bunch of other things, which is pretty much insane on anything for a CR increase from a mere +10.

[danielxcutter]

Anything with the Pseudonatural Template from the Epic Level Handbook.

There was a big, big debate on this board a while ago when a poster named Avicenex wrote up a monster with a Spell Resistance of 385, and everyone was convinced that it was a typo. Turns out that it really was true - the "Epic Pseudonatural" template intentionally grants HDx5 in SR, among a bunch of other things, which is pretty much insane on anything for a CR increase from a mere +10.

...just what did he add it too?

Also, yeah, anything that wasn't originally a lame mook becomes a nightmare to fight with that template. In fact, even lame mooks become much better, even compared to the increased CR.

[MesiDoomstalker]

To be cair, Zaq, Shapechange is capped by both HD and CL. It can't turn into anything unless it has as many HD as it.

[danielxcutter]

To be cair, Zaq, Shapechange is capped by both HD and CL. It can't turn into anything unless it has as many HD as it.

Huh, didn't know that... How many HD do they have, then? I'm sure it's still grossly under-CRed, just not as much as I thought in the first place.

[Nifft]

You mean SLAs? What kind? Actually Zaq said spells, and spells are exactly what a Cranium Rat Swarm can chuck at you.

The average swarm casts as a level 4 Sorcerer, and the sample spells include expeditious retreat and mirror image, so good luck getting away (if you run) or hitting the thing (if you try to cast spells at it).


Anything with the Pseudonatural Template from the Epic Level Handbook.

There was a big, big debate on this board a while ago when a poster named Avicenex wrote up a monster with a Spell Resistance of 385, and everyone was convinced that it was a typo. Turns out that it really was true - the "Epic Pseudonatural" template intentionally grants HDx5 in SR, among a bunch of other things, which is pretty much insane on anything for a CR increase from a mere +10.

I found some decent uses for that template -- like, I put it on a gelatinous cube, and it was a fine high-level (non-Epic) encounter.

You must be very careful, though. It's not a good template for the inexperienced DM.

[danielxcutter]

Actually Zaq said spells, and spells are exactly what a Cranium Rat Swarm can chuck at you.

The average swarm casts as a level 4 Sorcerer, and the sample spells include expeditious retreat and mirror image, so good luck getting away (if you run) or hitting the thing (if you try to cast spells at it).

What. That's insane.

[Zaq]

Okay, I had a piece typed up about how the spells were one of the least bad things about them, since their immunity to "any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target effect spells such as disintegrate)" would preclude a lot of buffs from working. But then I realized that it's not actually clear if that would make them immune to personal buffs (and honestly, probably not, given that there's PHB-standard precedent for personal-only buffs applying to single creatures or multiple creatures—namely, a master and a familiar). So yeah. It's even worse than I thought. The CRS is horrible.

I like your description of it as "statted falling rocks." That's clever.

[danielxcutter]

Okay, I had a piece typed up about how the spells were one of the least bad things about them, since their immunity to "any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target effect spells such as disintegrate" would preclude a lot of buffs from working. But then I realized that it's not actually clear if that would make them immune to personal buffs (and honestly, probably not, given that there's PHB-standard precedent for personal-only buffs applying to single creatures or multiple creatures—namely, a master and a familiar). So yeah. It's even worse than I thought. The CRS is horrible.

I like your description of it as "statted falling rocks." That's clever.

Thanks, that was the first thing that came to mind. And honestly, I'm not exactly wrong.

[Blu]

Rats fall, you die

[danielxcutter]

Rats fall, you die

More like rats swarm, everyone dies :smalltongue:

But yeah. I'm at a game with a Catfolk Warlock, a Pixie Swordsage, a Whisper Gnome Cloistered Cleric, and a Fighter/Psion(Nomad) - me, btw - that's just at the right level for a CR 5 encounter.

We'd get wiped in the first 5 rounds.

[AlanBruce]

Adding one here, the Bloodfire Ooze from MMIV.

It's huge.

It's an ooze (and all its traits).

It has over 100 HP (mind you, CR 7).

It's an evil ooze, so if you have a paladin in the party, he can smite it.

It has SR (not that high, but at CR 7, respectable).

Given its name, it should come as no surprise that it's fire based. Each time you hit it, you get burnt, unless you're using reach weapons (as in ranged, chains aren't enough, nor polearms).

Each time he smacks you around, with a decent modifier no less, you get burnt. Refer to the above point of hitting it.

You want to surround this guy? Go nuts: it can discharge an explosion in a ten foot radius each round that does 6d6 fire damage with a high Reflex save for half damage. At ECL 7, most PCs will not make the save and will have been hit by its slams enough to already be weakened enough and probably drop.

Ok, so this guy is a fire based monster ooze that can resist magic, sense you from a reasonably good distance and charbroil anyone foolish enough to get close, but that's not what makes this thing so damn frustrating and dangerous.

It can Empower for free any spell or SLA with the fire descriptor within 60ft. of it. So have one be the pet of some mage with a few Fire spells prepared or known and the party having no knowledge of what they're fighting and it can get pretty ugly, pretty fast.

[unseenmage]

It occurs to me that the worst monstets to face 'round these parts would be anything with teir 1 spellcasting between the bog standard wizard to the mighty true dragon when run by a Playgrounder.

Even That Damn Crab pales in comparison to a properly twinked and utilized spel list I'd imagine.

Then again, giving spellcasting to the Crab could let us have our cake and fear it to so to speak.
Makes me wonder how we'd go about doing such?

[danielxcutter]

It occurs to me that the worst monstets to face 'round these parts would be anything with teir 1 spellcasting between the bog standard wizard to the mighty true dragon when run by a Playgrounder.

Even That Damn Crab pales in comparison to a properly twinked and utilized spel list I'd imagine.

Then again, giving spellcasting to the Crab could let us have our cake and fear it to so to speak.
Makes me wonder how we'd go about doing such?

Short answer: Don't.

Longer answer: The closest you could get is a template that grants SLAs/PLAs, but it's already strong enough... do you seriously have to enhance it even more?

[unseenmage]

Short answer: Don't.

Longer answer: The closest you could get is a template that grants SLAs/PLAs, but it's already strong enough... do you seriously have to enhance it even more?
...Yes. For SCIENCE!

More seriously, IIRC the Crab is a vermin and could qualify for the critter half of an Entomanothrope (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040621a) with a poor hapless Wizard on the other side.

[Inevitability]

...Yes. For SCIENCE!

More seriously, IIRC the Crab is a vermin and could qualify for the critter half of an Entomanothrope (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040621a) with a poor hapless Wizard on the other side.

You could also Awaken it, then grant it wizard levels normally, or have an 8th-level druid with Vermin Shape turn into one.

[Eldariel]

To be cair, Zaq, Shapechange is capped by both HD and CL. It can't turn into anything unless it has as many HD as it.

Actually, Shapechange specifically lacks that limitation, being only restricted by CL. So y'know, fun times. Phasm is another wonderful shapeshifter though slightly more fair.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Actually, Shapechange specifically lacks that limitation, being only restricted by CL. So y'know, fun times. Phasm is another wonderful shapeshifter though slightly more fair.

Shapechange references Polymorph which references Alter Self which imposes the HD limit. The only thing Shapechange alters is the max CL.

[Wraith]

...just what did he add it to?

Also, yeah, anything that wasn't originally a lame mook becomes a nightmare to fight with that template. In fact, even lame mooks become much better, even compared to the increased CR.

I'm afraid I don't know for sure - the original link to the stats is from 2013, so it's long since been scrubbed. Someone in the thread suggests that it's a Tarrasque with four or five additional templates stacked upon it so it's possibly just some horrendous amalgamation of various things, but Pseudonatural is the one that has the biggest impact.

[danielxcutter]

I'm afraid I don't know for sure - the original link to the stats is from 2013, so it's long since been scrubbed. Someone in the thread suggests that it's a Tarrasque with four or five additional templates stacked upon it so it's possibly just some horrendous amalgamation of various things, but Pseudonatural is the one that has the biggest impact.

Oh, certainly... If I remember correctly, a Tarrasque is CR 20 with 48 HD. A Pseudonatural(ELH) Tarrasque would have a ridiculous 240 SR despite being only CR 26. And that's not counting all the great benefits the template grants, like SLAs and stat bonuses.

[Marlowe]

More like rats swarm, everyone dies :smalltongue:

But yeah. I'm at a game with a Catfolk Warlock, a Pixie Swordsage, a Whisper Gnome Cloistered Cleric, and a Fighter/Psion(Nomad) - me, btw - that's just at the right level for a CR 5 encounter.

We'd get wiped in the first 5 rounds.

I love your party.

[danielxcutter]

I love your party.

Thanks, I'll mention it to them. We just finished getting our first mission - it's a PbP, so it's a bit slow - but we're still having plenty of fun from just the RP. Plus the DM has a huge homebrewed setting, and it's an Elder Evil-themed campaign(also homebrewed). The DM says he's planning on us going up to ECL 17~18, maybe a bit higher.

Tl;dr Our campaign is going to be awesome. I plan on posting the campaign log sooner or later.

Edit: Why we'd get pwned -


Whisper Gnome Cloistered Cleric: I'm pretty sure that Clerics don't even have AoE spells at this level. He's planning to focus on buffs and heals, and his feats are gishy instead of blasty(Knowledge and Travel Devotions). Also, he's purposely making an unoptimized build, so he only has 16 Wis.

Pixie Swordsage: Might be able to do something against normal swarms, which can be damaged by bludgeoning weapons(he uses the Unarmed variant), but unfortunately a CRS is immune to all weapons. Plus he still has +4 LA so he only has 10 hit points. He might manage to run away, but if he gets hit once, he dies. Though admittingly, good luck with that - Pixies have at-will Greater Invisibility and (Ex) flight.

Catfolk Warlock: Doesn't have any AoE blast shapes like Eldritch Cone - or for that manner, any blast shapes at all. He's doomed...

Me: ...though I'm not much better. I don't have any AoE blasting powers or anything like that. I might not die in the first round, thanks to Vigor and Share Pain(I have a psicrystal and I'm not afraid to use him), but I can't really do anything either.


So... yeah.

[Eldariel]

Shapechange references Polymorph which breferences Alter Self which imposes the HD limit. The only thing Shapechange alters is the max CL.

Shapechange alters the limitations as a whole, removing HD and increasing CL. Much like Polymorph alters the whole of size limitations, removing maximum size limit and altering the minimum.

[Florian]

The "cannon fodder"-type outsiders are pretty much under-CR´d when using them as standard encounters. DR, immunities, resistances that you can´t beat at that level, coupled with some nasty SLAs. Dretch, Lemure, Imp, Quasit and so on, critters you don´t want to face at lvl 1 or 2, especially not as a combined gang.

PF uses the "Troop" subtype to keep hordes of low-CR critters relevant in later levels by turning them into a swarm. Yes, a troop of goblins is CR5, but actually using them on APL 5 is a sure way to get someone killed.

[danielxcutter]

The "cannon fodder"-type outsiders are pretty much under-CR´d when using them as standard encounters. DR, immunities, resistances that you can´t beat at that level, coupled with some nasty SLAs. Dretch, Lemure, Imp, Quasit and so on, critters you don´t want to face at lvl 1 or 2, especially not as a combined gang.

PF uses the "Troop" subtype to keep hordes of low-CR critters relevant in later levels by turning them into a swarm. Yes, a troop of goblins is CR5, but actually using them on APL 5 is a sure way to get someone killed.

Huh, never thought of that. Good catch there.

[Luccan]

The "cannon fodder"-type outsiders are pretty much under-CR´d when using them as standard encounters. DR, immunities, resistances that you can´t beat at that level, coupled with some nasty SLAs. Dretch, Lemure, Imp, Quasit and so on, critters you don´t want to face at lvl 1 or 2, especially not as a combined gang.

PF uses the "Troop" subtype to keep hordes of low-CR critters relevant in later levels by turning them into a swarm. Yes, a troop of goblins is CR5, but actually using them on APL 5 is a sure way to get someone killed.

Fighting a Lemure wouldn't be great at level one, but a party could manage it. The others though...

[Jormengand]

The orc is actually fairly scary for its CR; 9 damage a swing is enough to one-shot some of the weaker party members and you get two of them as an EL1 encounter. The CR 2 ape also bears mentioning, as it has 29 hit points, AC 14, and an attack routine that can take down an unfortunate barbarian at that level. The lion - which charges 80 feet and makes 5 attacks and a grapple against the target - is ridiculous at CR 3, and the rhino's 4d6+24 damage at CR 4 is pretty nasty.

The CR 5 ravid which carries 20 CR 7 creatures around it at all times isn't appreciated either.

Also worth mentioning is the ghaele, which is CR 13, casts as a 14th-level cleric, and has enough SR to make casting spells at it mostly pointless. Any creature that meets the ghaele's gaze has to save or run, and the blighter has a bunch of resistances and immunities stapled to a 150-foot fly speed. In fact, just the majority of angels, demons, devils, dragons and eladrin aren't okay. Hope anyone fighting a balor has ranks in escape artist, or they'll be anchored against its body for the entire battle! Oh, and it can summon a bunch of other demons because of course it can.

[danielxcutter]

The orc is actually fairly scary for its CR; 9 damage a swing is enough to one-shot some of the weaker party members and you get two of them as an EL1 encounter. The CR 2 ape also bears mentioning, as it has 29 hit points, AC 14, and an attack routine that can take down an unfortunate barbarian at that level. The lion - which charges 80 feet and makes 5 attacks and a grapple against the target - is ridiculous at CR 3, and the rhino's 4d6+24 damage at CR 4 is pretty nasty.

Huh. Not quite as bad as some of the others(looking at you CRS), but still painful. Ouch.


The CR 5 ravid which carries 20 CR 7 creatures around it at all times isn't appreciated either.

...What?


Also worth mentioning is the ghaele, which is CR 13, casts as a 14th-level cleric, and has enough SR to make casting spells at it mostly pointless. Any creature that meets the ghaele's gaze has to save or run, and the blighter has a bunch of resistances and immunities stapled to a 150-foot fly speed.

Ouch. Nasty one we've got here.


In fact, just the majority of angels, demons, devils, dragons and eladrin aren't okay. Hope anyone fighting a balor has ranks in escape artist, or they'll be anchored against its body for the entire battle! Oh, and it can summon a bunch of other demons because of course it can.

Yeeaah, outsiders and dragons are tough. By the way what do you mean by anchored? Grappling?

[Jormengand]

...What?

It automatically animates an object (as animate objects) at CL 20 every round becuase that's okay.


Yeeaah, outsiders and dragons are tough. By the way what do you mean by anchored? Grappling?

Entangled and stuck the the Balor, who is free to keep moving around and no-save cutting people's heads off. There's no saves, only a DC 20 EA check or 25 strength check to escape, and you take 6d6 damage/round in addition to anything else nasty that might be happening to you.

[danielxcutter]

It automatically animates an object (as animate objects) at CL 20 every round becuase that's okay.

Animated objects aren't that powerful, but seriously, twenty of them at once? That's gotta suck...


Entangled and stuck the the Balor, who is free to keep moving around and no-save cutting people's heads off. There's no saves, only a DC 20 EA check or 25 strength check to escape, and you take 6d6 damage/round in addition to anything else nasty that might be happening to you.

No wonder people say that Balors are tough cookies when played right.

[Jormengand]

Animated objects aren't that powerful, but seriously, twenty of them at once? That's gotta suck...

Oh, actually, let me tell you what else is stupid: an animated adamantine statuette. CR 1/2, hardness 20, and energy damage is halved before applying that hardness so you need to deal 22 physical or 44 energy damage to destroy it, and it's immune to criticals so even the luckiest possible strike with a greatsword won't cut it, in either sense. Even an animated iron statuette is nasty if no-one packed a greatsword. And there are two of them, and they're faster than you.

[danielxcutter]

Oh, actually, let me tell you what else is stupid: an animated adamantine statuette. CR 1/2, hardness 20, and energy damage is halved before applying that hardness so you need to deal 22 physical or 44 energy damage to destroy it, and it's immune to criticals so even the luckiest possible strike with a greatsword won't cut it, in either sense. Even an animated iron statuette is nasty if no-one packed a greatsword. And there are two of them, and they're faster than you.

I reeeeeaaaally hope that you can't do something like this with riverine... oh who am I kidding? :smallannoyed:

[unseenmage]

I reeeeeaaaally hope that you can't do something like this with riverine... oh who am I kidding? :smallannoyed:

As special materials are explicitly not Magic Items, yes Riverine works. As does Thinaun steel, Aurorum, Living Metal, Livewood, and lastly Shapesand since alchemical items are explicitly not Magic Items either.

Also fun is using Animate Objects on Quintessence since, like Wall of Stone it is Instantaneous duration so the thing it makes is real. Too bad Animate Objects doesn't allow a Swallow Whole option.

Best Animated Object though is a Oerthblood Alloy (Dragon Mag), Obdurium (SBG), Dwarvencraft (RoS iirc) statue with Hardening, that one psionic hardening, and Augment Object SBG) applied. The hardness goes over 100 easy and the thing can still be Awakened at a later date.
But of course this is really just template stacking in another form and we all know how poorly the CR system interacts with that particular peccadillo.

[Zaq]

Has anyone mentioned the Revived Fossil (Libris Mortis, p. 118-9)? I'm low on time, so I can't go over all the ways that they're under-CR'd, but they're hella under-CR'd. Mostly by being ridiculously hard to kill for a low-level party—they have DR 10/adamantine and a downright stupidly huge quantity of natural armor. But they can be as low as CR 1/3. Just go through and look at some random animals, apply the template, and then consider how a party of that level would deal with them.

[hamishspence]

Which reflects fiction pretty well - in Jim Butcher's Dresden Files (Dead Beat), Harry Dresden "revives" Sue the T. Rex, and in Tamora Pierce's Immortals Quartet (The Emperor Mage) Daine revives an entire museum-full of fossils - and in both cases, they're more dangerous than ordinary undead would be.

[Zanos]

That's a pretty hilarious template. A colossal revived fossal has 31 AC, two 2d20+str claw attacks at least, 210 HP and DR 10/adamantine. Lack of intellligence score makes it weak against a couple things, but trying to melee that is probably going to give you a very bad time.


Which reflects fiction pretty well - in Jim Butcher's Dresden Files (Dead Beat), Harry Dresden "revives" Sue the T. Rex, and in Tamora Pierce's Immortals Quartet (The Emperor Mage) Daine revives an entire museum-full of fossils - and in both cases, they're more dangerous than ordinary undead would be.
It's fine for them to be more dangerous, but the increased danger should be reflected in a higher CR.

[hamishspence]

That's a pretty hilarious template. A colossal revived fossal has 31 AC, two 2d20+str claw attacks at least, 210 HP and DR 10/adamantine. Lack of intellligence score makes it weak against a couple things, but trying to melee that is probably going to give you a very bad time.

They only gain the claw attacks if the base creature has hands. A Colossal Seismosaurus fossil wouldn't get them, for example. Given that the base creature would already have a high CR, at that level you might expect the average melee character to have adamantine weaponry and ways of overcoming high AC.

The real worry would be low-level monsters with something like hands. A revived monkey, for example, would be much more scary to a low level party, than a revived Seismosaurus or Tyrannosaurus would to a mid-level party.

[Zanos]

They only gain the claw attacks if the base creature has hands. A Colossal Seismosaurus fossil wouldn't get them, for example. Given that the base creature would already have a high CR, at that level you might expect the average melee character to have adamantine weaponry and ways of overcoming high AC.

The real worry would be low-level monsters with something like hands. A revived monkey, for example, would be much more scary to a low level party, than a revived Seismosaurus or Tyrannosaurus would to a mid-level party.
Oh yeah I just noticed even the low leveling scaling on these is busted. Even a human revived fossil is going to have 21 AC, 2 greatsword damage claws, and DR 10/Adamantine at CR 1/3.

[hamishspence]

Also worth mentioning is the ghaele, which is CR 13, casts as a 14th-level cleric, and has enough SR to make casting spells at it mostly pointless. Any creature that meets the ghaele's gaze has to save or run, and the blighter has a bunch of resistances and immunities stapled to a 150-foot fly speed. In fact, just the majority of angels, demons, devils, dragons and eladrin aren't okay. Hope anyone fighting a balor has ranks in escape artist, or they'll be anchored against its body for the entire battle! Oh, and it can summon a bunch of other demons because of course it can.

The bigger the gap between the monster's CR and its casting power, the more overpowered it is.

Elemental Weirds from MM2 are CR12 but cast as 18th level sorcerers (and cast spells from 2 cleric domains, as arcane spells). They get summons, as well, and respectable DR.

[Svata]

Cr 1/3??!?!?!! Jesus!

[Zanos]

Full Statblock for a human warrior revived fossil:

Medium Undead(Augmented Humanoid)
Initiative: -1 (Dex); Senses: darkvision 60 ft.
AC: 21 (-1 Dex, +12 Natural), touch 9, flat-footed 21
Hit Dice: 1d12+20 (26 hp); DR: 10/adamantine
Fort +0, Ref +0, Will +2
Speed: 30 ft.
Space: 5 ft./5 ft.
Base Attack +0; Grapple +1
Attack: Claw +1 Melee(2d6+1)
Full Attack: 2 Claws +1 Melee(2d6+1)
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 9, Con -, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 1
Special Qualities: Bonus hit points, immunity to cold, undead traits
Feats: Combat Reflexes
Skills: -
Environment: Any
Organization: Any
Challenge Rating: 1/3
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always Neutral Evil
Advancement: -

Seems legit.

[MesiDoomstalker]

The bigger the gap between the monster's CR and its casting power, the more overpowered it is.

Elemental Weirds from MM2 are CR12 but cast as 18th level sorcerers (and cast spells from 2 cleric domains, as arcane spells). They get summons, as well, and respectable DR.

Don't forget the At-Will, Free Action Divinations.

[hamishspence]

That would come into play more if the monster is the one taking the initiative against the players, rather than in a straightforward dungeon-crawl encounter.

[Eldariel]

That would come into play more if the monster is the one taking the initiative against the players, rather than in a straightforward dungeon-crawl encounter.

Even in dungeoncrawl you can assume it has a vast buff array and the battlefield is completely in its favour.

[The Viscount]

They only gain the claw attacks if the base creature has hands. A Colossal Seismosaurus fossil wouldn't get them, for example. Given that the base creature would already have a high CR, at that level you might expect the average melee character to have adamantine weaponry and ways of overcoming high AC.

The real worry would be low-level monsters with something like hands. A revived monkey, for example, would be much more scary to a low level party, than a revived Seismosaurus or Tyrannosaurus would to a mid-level party.

If the base creature has claws then you use whichever value is better, though that's an unnecessary statement, because the revived fossil claw chart is better than any claw chart I've ever seen. Standard claw damage from templates is 1d4 for medium, but someone went nuts with that chart.

I totally agree that at low levels this monster is punching way above CR.

However, higher level fossilized creatures have the same problem as high level zombies, high level skeletons, and a good number of mindless undead. The example I use for this is LM's Hulking Corpse, a CR 9 Undead monster with 20HD, improved grab and rend, and 3 natural attacks. It can do one thing, and that's deal a big hunk of damage. If you fight it with plain melee, it's going to be a long and boring encounter where you swing until somebody dies.
If anyone in the party is capable of producing a command undead effect, the encounter doesn't matter. It's a 2nd level spell, so wizards have it at 3, and you can make a wand of it pretty easily. It can only target one undead, but if they're mindless, there's no save. The duration is 1 day per level so a wand is probably the best use of the spell, the caster level doesn't matter. An unintelligent undead explicitly will obey harmful or suicidal commands, so you can just tell the thing to rip itself apart, or repeatedly jump off a cliff, or just fight by your side until other monsters destroy it. These monsters nearly always have crap initiative (even the sample revived fossil is at +1) so if they don't get the drop (which they won't since they have 0 ranks in Hide and MS) then the party goes first and the fight never starts.
The Hulking Corpse and others like it are the worst sort of monster to fight, because it's either too hard or too easy, but always in the least interesting way.

[ShurikVch]

Did somebody already mentioned The most unbalanced monsters for each CR up to 20 (or so)? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?315230-The-most-unbalanced-monsters-for-each-CR-up-to-20-(or-so))

[Cosi]

That's a pretty hilarious template. A colossal revived fossal has 31 AC, two 2d20+str claw attacks at least, 210 HP and DR 10/adamantine. Lack of intellligence score makes it weak against a couple things, but trying to melee that is probably going to give you a very bad time.

A high level Revived Fossil is just a puzzle monster. If you can exploit the fact that it is a mindless melee brute (and therefore loses to silent image and fly), it is trivial to beat it. If you can't, it's exceedingly dangerous. It's like Giant Vermin or the various Oozes. There's a right way to fight it and a wrong way to fight it, and the game punishes you for not figuring out the right way.


The bigger the gap between the monster's CR and its casting power, the more overpowered it is.

Elemental Weirds from MM2 are CR12 but cast as 18th level sorcerers (and cast spells from 2 cleric domains, as arcane spells). They get summons, as well, and respectable DR.

Weirds are, well, weird. Their CR is way too low for a head on confrontation, but since they can't leave their pool, it's almost too high for them to be a serious threat. You can bypass a Wierd entirely by just having a map and being able to read. Really, they would benefit from having two CRs -- one for fighting them, and one for bypassing them.

[hamishspence]

I would guess that Elemental Weirds are upped to CR15 based on Frostburn's ones (and that back-applied to the MM2 ones).

[Eldariel]

Weirds are, well, weird. Their CR is way too low for a head on confrontation, but since they can't leave their pool, it's almost too high for them to be a serious threat. You can bypass a Wierd entirely by just having a map and being able to read. Really, they would benefit from having two CRs -- one for fighting them, and one for bypassing them.

Well, they have level 18 casting. They can leave or act at a distance with the right spells.

[Wraith]

I've just remembered a classic story which is very pertinent to the theme of "overpowered monsters": Tucker's Kobolds (https://media.wizards.com/2014/downloads/dnd/TuckersKobolds.pdf).

One of those things designed explicitly to remind you that no PC is ever safe. Ever. Ever. :smallamused:

[Beheld]

Regarding the I believe first in this thread mentioned, and commonly mentioned "That Damn Crab."

It was a web supplement that was replaced by the book printing:

LARGE MONSTROUS CRAB
Large Vermin (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 6d8+9 (36 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 18 (–1 size, +9 natural), touch 9,
flat-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+17
Attack: Claw +8 melee (1d8+5)
Full Attack: 2 claws +8 melee (1d8+5)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Constrict 2d8+5, improved grab
Special Qualities: Amphibious, low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +2, Will +2
Abilities: Str 21, Dex 11, Con 12, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 2
Skills: Hide +0, Spot +4
Feats: ToughnessB
Environment: Temperate aquatic
Organization: Solitary or colony (2–5)
Challenge Rating: 4
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 7–11 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: —



CR 4, half the HP, much lower fort save, some minor penalties to attack, damage, AC, grapple check, and speed reduced to 20ft. You can now run from it, you can kill it much easier, it's less powerful, and it's higher CR.

[Remuko]

Full Statblock for a human warrior revived fossil:

Medium Undead(Augmented Humanoid)
Initiative: -1 (Dex); Senses: darkvision 60 ft.
AC: 21 (-1 Dex, +12 Natural), touch 9, flat-footed 21
Hit Dice: 1d12+20 (26 hp); DR: 10/adamantine
Fort +0, Ref +0, Will +2
Speed: 30 ft.
Space: 5 ft./5 ft.
Base Attack +0; Grapple +1
Attack: Claw +1 Melee(2d6+1)
Full Attack: 2 Claws +1 Melee(2d6+1)
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 9, Con -, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 1
Special Qualities: Bonus hit points, immunity to cold, undead traits
Feats: Combat Reflexes
Skills: -
Environment: Any
Organization: Any
Challenge Rating: 1/3
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always Neutral Evil
Advancement: -

Seems legit.

I really wanna play an Awakened Revived Fossil now.

[Hecuba]

The Gray Jester from HoH is CR4. It's probably going to fold in a head-to-head fight unless you stack it with some Bleak Ones (in which case the CR should increase).

But consider - it's got a nice big bonus to hide and move silently. Like, +12 bonuses, if memory serves.
If there
If it can get off hideous laughter and withdraw to feed, the affected PC will almost certainly become a Bleak One.

Which is to say, get dominated (but without the normal outs) and be forced to fight against the party.
And it's got 8 die worth of HP to handle withdrawing to hide again.
And the domination is effectively permanent.

[noob]

Is hitting people three times in a round with effects of the deck of many things chosen at random unfairly powerful?

[danielxcutter]

Is hitting people three times in a round with effects of the deck of many things chosen at random unfairly powerful?

That's not really a monster.

[noob]

Well there is a monster who can do this and have 15 hd for a cr of 10
If you get hit by enough cards something bad is bound to happen.
Well I was wrong on the number of cards it was only one.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Well there is a monster who can do this and have 15 hd for a cr of 10
If you get hit by enough cards something bad is bound to happen.
Well I was wrong on the number of cards it was only one.

The Red Jester. None of it's numbers are particular impressive, besides a Free Action Fear Cackle, which Panic's whoever fails their save. And the +15 Ranged Touch Attack, forcibly draw from The Deck for you. It can also draw the same card repeatedly, so basically it's always a fresh deck. Is it likely to kill you? Probably not. Is it likely to completely screw up the game solo? Heck yes it can.

[Karl Aegis]

Shout-out to my man, the Young Adult Steel Dragon. Dude has enough feats for Arcane Thesis, Empower Spell, Maximize Spell and Quicken Breath. I certainly hope you have Improved Evasion by CR 8 because this guy can lay down over a hundred damage to most of the party from (Greater) Invisibility. Oh, and he has 19 Dragon hit dice. Good luck killing one of those.

[Xervous]

When it comes to Steel Dragons the variant I'd be most concerned with are the Young ones. CR 4.

9/7/8 saves give casters even odds at best of landing a spell, having effectively 30 SR drastically limits spell options. 19 AC ain't amazing, but it's not entering into melee. Strafing runs on a DC 17 fort save for 3 CON damage, plus another save later like all proper poisons. Mind you this is not a fast way to kill players, but any party that finds itself lacking a competent ranged attacker isn't well off for this battle of attrition. And just to make this sound like a reasonable thing of unreasonable CR, 5th level sorc casting.

It's not a crab, nor an allip, but it will wreck the unprepared party. If the dragon sticks around long enough for them to poke it out of the sky, some characters might have 3 or 4 followup poison saves waiting.

[Eldariel]

When it comes to Steel Dragons the variant I'd be most concerned with are the Young ones. CR 4.

9/7/8 saves give casters even odds at best of landing a spell, having effectively 30 SR drastically limits spell options. 19 AC ain't amazing, but it's not entering into melee. Strafing runs on a DC 17 fort save for 3 CON damage, plus another save later like all proper poisons. Mind you this is not a fast way to kill players, but any party that finds itself lacking a competent ranged attacker isn't well off for this battle of attrition. And just to make this sound like a reasonable thing of unreasonable CR, 5th level sorc casting.

It's not a crab, nor an allip, but it will wreck the unprepared party. If the dragon sticks around long enough for them to poke it out of the sky, some characters might have 3 or 4 followup poison saves waiting.

Thanks to 5th level casting, it tends to have much much higher AC than that (Mage Armor, Shield, Protection goes up to 29 and it has Wings of Cover + Scintillating Scales). Attacking is hard.

[danielxcutter]

Thanks to 5th level casting, it tends to have much much higher AC than that (Mage Armor, Shield, Protection goes up to 29 and it has Wings of Cover + Scintillating Scales). Attacking is hard.

Dragons in general are apparently quite powerful for their CR, if what I read on TvTropes is right. Makes sense, because they have racial casting, great stats, and a bunch of dragon-only stuff.

[Inevitability]

Dragons in general are apparently quite powerful for their CR, if what I read on TvTropes is right. Makes sense, because they have racial casting, great stats, and a bunch of dragon-only stuff.

It really doesn't: the proper way to deal with a monster that's got racial casting, great stats, and monster-specific stuff is to increase its CR, not allow it to remain overpowered at its current one.

[danielxcutter]

It really doesn't: the proper way to deal with a monster that's got racial casting, great stats, and monster-specific stuff is to increase its CR, not allow it to remain overpowered at its current one.

"Makes sense" here was intended as "becomes understandable why TvTropes states that dragons are overpowered compared to their CR", not "becomes understandable why they're at the CR they are at now".

[Zaydos]

Because a poorly built dragon that doesn't have many long duration buffs, and doesn't have short duration buffs casts before the battle, is actually often pretty reasonable for its CR. It's that dragons are the one creature the game asks you to build yourself and they're sort of wildly variable due to that. Like CR 4 Black Dragon has AC 17, 10 damage from its breath weapon (4-16), 3 attacks in a full attack (+9/+9/+4 for 1d4+1/1d4+1/1d6) and 52 HP. Now Lv 4 Barbarian has 17 AC, 1 attack in their full attack (+8 for 2d6+5) and 52 hp, with rage making it 15 AC +10/2d6+8 and 60 hp, or Whirling Frenzy making it 18 AC, +8/+8 for 2d6+8 and 52 hp. Now neither have feats but for 'has a ~50% or more chance of killing' (which is CR = character level) the Black Dragon's not unbelievably strong.

That said Steel Dragons are just massively stronger than other dragons of their CR, and Metallics tend to be stronger than Chromatics too (better casting and SoL breaths). Any well built dragon is nasty, though.

[danielxcutter]

Because a poorly built dragon that doesn't have many long duration buffs, and doesn't have short duration buffs casts before the battle, is actually often pretty reasonable for its CR. It's that dragons are the one creature the game asks you to build yourself and they're sort of wildly variable due to that. Like CR 4 Black Dragon has AC 17, 10 damage from its breath weapon (4-16), 3 attacks in a full attack (+9/+9/+4 for 1d4+1/1d4+1/1d6) and 52 HP. Now Lv 4 Barbarian has 17 AC, 1 attack in their full attack (+8 for 2d6+5) and 52 hp, with rage making it 15 AC +10/2d6+8 and 60 hp, or Whirling Frenzy making it 18 AC, +8/+8 for 2d6+8 and 52 hp. Now neither have feats but for 'has a ~50% or more chance of killing' (which is CR = character level) the Black Dragon's not unbelievably strong.

That said Steel Dragons are just massively stronger than other dragons of their CR, and Metallics tend to be stronger than Chromatics too (better casting and SoL breaths). Any well built dragon is nasty, though.

Considering the peanut dracolich you have for an avatar, my first instinct it to trust you.

[Zaydos]

Considering the peanut dracolich you have for an avatar, my first instinct it to trust you.

I will note that the black dragon has 3 unaccounted for feats and +14 Hide, it can push the battle to its advantage pretty easily if played smart, but it requires it be played smart and aware enough of the PC(s) to be planning an ambush. The higher level the dragon the more this issue becomes apparent.

Planar dragons also tend to be pretty deadly for there CR. And I will note for some insane reason the Blue Dragon that is CR 4 has 2 more hit dice +2 better to hit, +6 damage/full attack. Ironically the CR 4 Red Dragon is weaker than the CR 4 Blue Dragon, while it does do +1 damage/hit, it has -1 to hit, -2 AC, -7 breath weapon damage.

So yeah dragons range in power a lot in a single CR for some weird reason, but some of them are reasonable, some of them are not, and some times it's how you build them, and in my case that means I should be careful because I tend to build them to deal massive initial strikes that can kill parties.

Edit On topic, though. Dire Wolves. While not Giant Cockroach level, they have high hp, average AC, high damage (not the highest but high), and free trip on every attack with a +11 bonus (PCs will have +1 to +4 to resist, +7 ish if they're a tripper, +4 more if they're a dwarf). Not the worst, but they're probably deadlier than a CR 3 Blue Dragon, and I've had more near TPKs from Dire Wolves and Worgs than anything except Dragons specifically designed as boss encounters that might kill a few PCs. They're less unfairly (they don't really cut it as CR 4, they're like CR 3.5) but if your party doesn't have answers to them they're a problem.

[danielxcutter]

I will note that the black dragon has 3 unaccounted for feats and +14 Hide, it can push the battle to its advantage pretty easily if played smart, but it requires it be played smart and aware enough of the PC(s) to be planning an ambush. The higher level the dragon the more this issue becomes apparent.

Planar dragons also tend to be pretty deadly for there CR. And I will note for some insane reason the Blue Dragon that is CR 4 has 2 more hit dice +2 better to hit, +6 damage/full attack. Ironically the CR 4 Red Dragon is weaker than the CR 4 Blue Dragon, while it does do +1 damage/hit, it has -1 to hit, -2 AC, -7 breath weapon damage.

So yeah dragons range in power a lot in a single CR for some weird reason, but some of them are reasonable, some of them are not, and some times it's how you build them, and in my case that means I should be careful because I tend to build them to deal massive initial strikes that can kill parties.

Optimizers are minmaxers when players and killer DMs when on the other side of the screen. :smalltongue:

Jk, but dragons do have a high optimization ceiling.

[Florian]

Dragons in general are apparently quite powerful for their CR, if what I read on TvTropes is right. Makes sense, because they have racial casting, great stats, and a bunch of dragon-only stuff.

Difficult to answer. In 3E/3.5E, dragons were intentionally under-CR´d to be a "Boss Fight" and still be within the basic CR system. It should be a "climatic" battle with one, a fully rested party vs. the dragon. Eff stuff like Draconomicon or especially Dragon Magic, as that only made things worse.
Conrad that with PF dragons, as they actually only have around half the racial HD and fit into the CR system.

[danielxcutter]

Difficult to answer. In 3E/3.5E, dragons were intentionally under-CR´d to be a "Boss Fight" and still be within the basic CR system. It should be a "climatic" battle with one, a fully rested party vs. the dragon. Eff stuff like Draconomicon or especially Dragon Magic, as that only made things worse.
Conrad that with PF dragons, as they actually only have around half the racial HD and fit into the CR system.

Oh, I meant the 3.5 ones. I hear that PF is much more balanced.

[Florian]

Oh, I meant the 3.5 ones. I hear that PF is much more balanced.

What´s important here is knowing that some critters are intentionally designed to be "boss fights", with supplemental rules coming out later that create high levels of synergy without taking into account that these critters are already way above the expected performance. Same with the already mentioned "cannon fodder" types to flash out some encounters. In both cases, the CR is simply off when not understanding why they were created in this way. In 3E, Dragons, Beholders, Illithids....

[ryu]

What´s important here is knowing that some critters are intentionally designed to be "boss fights", with supplemental rules coming out later that create high levels of synergy without taking into account that these critters are already way above the expected performance. Same with the already mentioned "cannon fodder" types to flash out some encounters. In both cases, the CR is simply off when not understanding why they were created in this way. In 3E, Dragons, Beholders, Illithids....

The proper way to create a boss monster is to accurately rate its capability to the best of your capabilities then recommend what sorts of party should actually fight the thing. This is how you have a more challenging encounter than usual without necessarily having unexpected TPK in a can.

[danielxcutter]

What´s important here is knowing that some critters are intentionally designed to be "boss fights", with supplemental rules coming out later that create high levels of synergy without taking into account that these critters are already way above the expected performance. Same with the already mentioned "cannon fodder" types to flash out some encounters. In both cases, the CR is simply off when not understanding why they were created in this way. In 3E, Dragons, Beholders, Illithids....

Dragons are, well, dragons, and Illithids have this whole "ancient powerful eldritch race" thingy going on, but Beholders? Aside from Beholder Mage, of course, but I'm unaware of other powerful stuff they get access to. I hear there's something called Metaray, though...


The proper way to create a boss monster is to accurately rate its capability to the best of your capabilities then recommend what sorts of party should actually fight the thing. This is how you have a more challenging encounter than usual without necessarily having unexpected TPK in a can.

The very fact that we have to indicates that WotC didn't, or at least failed miserably at it.

[Florian]

Dragons are, well, dragons, and Illithids have this whole "ancient powerful eldritch race" thingy going on, but Beholders? Aside from Beholder Mage, of course, but I'm unaware of other powerful stuff they get access to. I hear there's something called Metaray, though...

The very fact that we have to indicates that WotC didn't, or at least failed miserably at it.

Moving in optimization circles, it´s easy to forget what "standard" in the CR system. APL = CR means easy, while APL +4 means hard. Some critters share an AD&D legacy and are simply designed for the hard mode.

[danielxcutter]

Moving in optimization circles, it´s easy to forget what "standard" in the CR system. APL = CR means easy, while APL +4 means hard. Some critters share an AD&D legacy and are simply designed for the hard mode.

Good point. Unfortunately some DMs apparently forget this.

[Fearan]

Entangled and stuck the the Balor, who is free to keep moving around and no-save cutting people's heads off. There's no saves, only a DC 20 EA check or 25 strength check to escape, and you take 6d6 damage/round in addition to anything else nasty that might be happening to you.
Aand since when 20-lvl parties lack access to freedom of movement? Seriously, Balor is meant to be put against GOD-wizards.

[danielxcutter]

Aand since when 20-lvl parties lack access to freedom of movement? Seriously, Balor is meant to be put against GOD-wizards.

Ah, point very much taken. Still doesn't change that they're a major pain in the ass to fight.

[Florian]

Ah, point very much taken. Still doesn't change that they're a major pain in the ass to fight.

Not really. Even for a standard martial, they only do what you have "immunized" yourself against the previous 15+ levels. A "Balor" is simply a sack of overrated HP to one-shot while there´re really nasty critters out there.

[danielxcutter]

Not really. Even for a standard martial, they only do what you have "immunized" yourself against the previous 15+ levels. A "Balor" is simply a sack of overrated HP to one-shot while there´re really nasty critters out there.

Okay... I presume the Solar fares better.

[Florian]

Okay... I presume the Solar fares better.

Not really.

Please consider that we talk MM1/B1 critters and every edition has surpassed that level.

[danielxcutter]

Not really.

Please consider that we talk MM1/B1 critters and every edition has surpassed that level.

I... well, I suppose that's true, considering the existance of Elemental Weirds, but Solars have racial casting as a 20th-level Cleric. They can use all those new spells as well... but they're not too insanely powerful compared to their CR.

[Schattenbach]

Ha-Naga are quite powerful for their CR22 (arguably vastly superior to both Balors and Pit Fiends), what with that buckload of stats (at the level or even beyond that of Archfiends), Colossal size, 21 level of sorcerer casting (with Sorcerer+Cleric+Evil & Chaos domain spells) on their 20 HD chassis (that's better than Sorcerer 20 by a long shot). Their SU Charm Monster Gaze would also provide them with quite a lot of minions of they felt like it. They#re also only one HD away from epic spellcasting.

Edit: fixed CR typo

[ShurikVch]

Aand since when 20-lvl parties lack access to freedom of movement?They don't need to lack it - freedom of movement doesn't help against non-magical entanglement

[lord_khaine]

I've just remembered a classic story which is very pertinent to the theme of "overpowered monsters": Tucker's Kobolds.

One of those things designed explicitly to remind you that no PC is ever safe. Ever. Ever.

I must say that to me that story just showed how much DM fiat is worth. The Kobolds were not dangerous on their own. They only got that sort of success because they were the DM's pet projekt. And the players were dumb.

Oh and good call about FoM. It does indeed not mention being entangled. Though it is hardly a status worth mentioning for someone high enough level to fight a Balor. The casters can TP away. Rogue types can easily handle a DC 20 Escape artist check. And the melee types are where they want to be, in range for a full attack.

[The_Jette]

Spider Swarm!

Think about it. It's a CR 1 enemy that is immune to weapon damage, causes a DC11 Fort save or be nauseated, and poisons the party... at level 1! Sure it only has 9 hit points, but the only viable way to damage it is by the party remembering that torches do 1d3 damage to a swarm, and then trying to burn the spiders away before they're all dead. Now, sure, swarms take double damage from area affect spells, and level 1 wizards can cast flaming hands. But, how many wizards actually take burning hands at level one? Everyone takes sleep, or grease, for the utility of it. And, those things don't work against swarms.

[Jormengand]

They don't need to lack it - freedom of movement doesn't help against non-magical entanglement

That, and even if they have it, and remember to cast it, and even if it worked, the balor also has nearly a fifth chance to no-save kill people with its full attacks, and anyone but Properly Optimised Wizard(/Cleric/Sorcerer/Etcetera) will have a bad day trying to fight one.

[Zanos]

They don't need to lack it - freedom of movement doesn't help against non-magical entanglement
That's up for debate, but what isn't is that it makes you automatically succeed grappling, and flaming body only deals damage if the balor is grappling you.

[Elkad]

Full Statblock for a human warrior revived fossil:

Medium Undead(Augmented Humanoid)
Initiative: -1 (Dex); Senses: darkvision 60 ft.
AC: 21 (-1 Dex, +12 Natural), touch 9, flat-footed 21
Hit Dice: 1d12+20 (26 hp); DR: 10/adamantine
Fort +0, Ref +0, Will +2
Speed: 30 ft.
Space: 5 ft./5 ft.
Base Attack +0; Grapple +1
Attack: Claw +1 Melee(2d6+1)
Full Attack: 2 Claws +1 Melee(2d6+1)
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 9, Con -, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 1
Special Qualities: Bonus hit points, immunity to cold, undead traits
Feats: Combat Reflexes
Skills: -
Environment: Any
Organization: Any
Challenge Rating: 1/3
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always Neutral Evil
Advancement: -

Seems legit.

I don't see the problem with this one.
Yes, it's a bad idea to melee it.

You can Turn it. Which means if you have Turning in the party, it really is that low a CR.

Without turning it's slightly higher, but not more than CR2. Blasting works. Beating it with your Goliath Greathammer works (slowly). A kind DM would drop a few Adamantium arrows in a prior encounter. Tripping it works. It has no Int, so you can take Total Defense while your buddy hits it with a reach weapon.

[Zombulian]

Spider Swarm!

Think about it. It's a CR 1 enemy that is immune to weapon damage, causes a DC11 Fort save or be nauseated, and poisons the party... at level 1! Sure it only has 9 hit points, but the only viable way to damage it is by the party remembering that torches do 1d3 damage to a swarm, and then trying to burn the spiders away before they're all dead. Now, sure, swarms take double damage from area affect spells, and level 1 wizards can cast flaming hands. But, how many wizards actually take burning hands at level one? Everyone takes sleep, or grease, for the utility of it. And, those things don't work against swarms.

I mean... you can set fire to Grease ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Well I'm not sure if that's actually legal but it's how my group rules it.

[Zanos]

I don't see the problem with this one.
Then look harder, I guess? There are mindless CR 1/3rd creatures and their stat blocks are nowhere near that rocked. I feel like if a creature was mindless but had 4000 HD and did "instantly kills you" damage you'd still say it was fine at CR 1/3rd, because it's mindless. And no, blasting 3 of those things(a CR 1 encounters) with your 3-4 per day 1d4+1 damage magic missiles does not work.


I mean... you can set fire to Grease ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Well I'm not sure if that's actually legal but it's how my group rules it.
There is a seperate version of grease that is flammable, but it's a 2nd level spell. Incendiary Slime, Complete Mage.

[ryu]

I mean... you can set fire to Grease ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Well I'm not sure if that's actually legal but it's how my group rules it.

No no, that's totally a thing. Also web if I remember right.

[Zombulian]

Then look harder, I guess? There are mindless CR 1/3rd creatures and their stat blocks are nowhere near that rocked. I feel like if a creature was mindless but had 4000 HD and did "instantly kills you" damage you'd still say it was fine at CR 1/3rd, because it's mindless. And no, blasting 3 of those things(a CR 1 encounters) with your 3-4 per day 1d4+1 damage magic missiles does not work.


There is a seperate version of grease that is flammable, but it's a 2nd level spell. Incendiary Slime, Complete Mage.

Mm I see. That spell does more damage than what we rule grease does though. I think we used the rules for burning oil from the PHB (1d3 for 2 rounds).

[Goladar]

That's up for debate, but what isn't is that it makes you automatically succeed grappling, and flaming body only deals damage if the balor is grappling you.

A short debate in my book. It says(3.5) you move and attack normally. Where's the debate?

[ShurikVch]

A short debate in my book. It says(3.5) you move and attack normally. Where's the debate?FoM protects from:
1) magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web
2) grapple or pin
3) allows to move and attack normally while underwater

Balor's whip isn't a magic; doesn't grapple or pin you; have nothing to do with moving underwater; thus - FoM is useless against it

[Zanos]

FoM protects from:
1) magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web
2) grapple or pin
3) allows to move and attack normally while underwater

Balor's whip isn't a magic; doesn't grapple or pin you; have nothing to do with moving underwater; thus - FoM is useless against it
It either is doing damage or isn't grappling your, as per flaming body.

[Goladar]

FoM protects from:
1) magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web
2) grapple or pin
3) allows to move and attack normally while underwater

Balor's whip isn't a magic; doesn't grapple or pin you; have nothing to do with moving underwater; thus - FoM is useless against it

It's preventing you from moving normally, which is covered in the first sentence of FoM. It says "to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement". The whip is preventing you from moving normally, correct? It doesn't say "ONLY magic".

[Jormengand]

That's up for debate, but what isn't is that it makes you automatically succeed grappling, and flaming body only deals damage if the balor is grappling you.

It's heavily implied that the whip is supposed to make the flaming body damage you.

[Florian]

It´s a MM1/B1 monster, so naturally the custom mechanics don´t hold up to later material in an edition and it never got updated.

[AlanBruce]

There's another one that can be rather unfair to an unprepared party: the Arcanist Varrangoin from Fiend Folio.

These guys are pegged at CR 11, so by the time the party faces one, it should have access to 6th level spells. The problem with this guy:

It has natural flight.

It has SR.

Moderate resistance to all energy types except sonic.

Immune to any spell of 3rd level or lower that allows SR.

Diverse SLAs (the book is 3.0 and has Polymorph Self and Polymorph Other, but I would guess that for 3.5 they would be Polymorph and Baleful Polymorph, as well as Arcane Sight, Flesh to Stone, Mirror Image and Dispel Magic.

Add a few weak melee attacks to its repertoire, but that's not the main issue.

It casts off the bat like a 9th level wizard and if used as a boss with the Elite Array, it gets a nice +6 to Intelligence. In fact, it's advancement is either through HD or as favored class: wizard.

Like al casters, it will rarely be alone, using the lesser varrangoins to overwhelm the party (these annoying buggers can only be hurt with silver weapons, having high DR. If you do kill one, they explode, because... why not?)

Oh, it also gets Scribe Scroll and Craft Wand as bonus feats, so expect one of these to be fully stocked if you go pick a fight with it.

So an ECL 11 party will have access to 6th's, but this guy, even without extra wizard levels, will not be so short behind with 5th's and its SLAs. While flying, dispelling your party, sending minions and maybe casting Flesh to Stone on the party mage.

Of note, they are weak to Sunlight or any Daylight spell which blinds them for 1 round, that's it. But given where they live- the Abyss- chances are you'll be fighting them in their own turf.

[Florian]

*Shrugs*

That´s simply an example for what happens when you give a monster access to regular player classes, especially full casters.

[Zanos]

It's heavily implied that the whip is supposed to make the flaming body damage you.
Using "heavily implied" as an argument while simultaneously arguing that Freedom of Movement doesn't do anything against the whip because it only blocks magical effects is hypocritical.

[Jormengand]

Using "heavily implied" as an argument while simultaneously arguing that Freedom of Movement doesn't do anything against the whip because it only blocks magical effects is hypocritical.

Except that FoM outright says "Magic which usually impedes movement" and the whip outright says "Against its flaming body (see below)" so it's bloody obvious that FoM is supposed to only work against magic and that the whip is supposed to inflict the burning body damage.

[The_Jette]

Except that FoM outright says "Magic which usually impedes movement" and the whip outright says "Against its flaming body (see below)" so it's bloody obvious that FoM is supposed to only work against magic and that the whip is supposed to inflict the burning body damage.

Actually it says:
This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web. The subject automatically succeeds on any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt, as well as on grapple checks or Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin.

So... yeah, I'll just leave that there.

[Jormengand]

Actually it says:
This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web. The subject automatically succeeds on any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt, as well as on grapple checks or Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin.

So... yeah, I'll just leave that there.

Okay, fine: FoM is only supposed to work against magic, and some other things which are not the balor's whip and we already knew that and the rest of us had got past that point in the conversation.

Happy?

[ShurikVch]

flaming body only deals damage if the balor is grappling you.No - it deals damage when you grappling balor
Or does FoM make you incapable to grapple?


It doesn't say "ONLY magic".It doesn't say "ONLY magic", but it does list of cases when it work - I summarised them in 1)2)3)

It's preventing you from moving normally, which is covered in the first sentence of FoM. It says "to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement". The whip is preventing you from moving normally, correct?Actually, a lot of things in the game prevent you from moving normally; so, with FoM:
Grapple (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple) - are you suddenly able to move freely while grappling?
Terrain and Obstacles (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#terrainandObstacle s) - are you able to squeeze at full speed, and attack at no penalty?
Or how about various conditions (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/conditions.htm)? Blinded, Exhausted, Staggered, Disabled...
Some creatures in the game just have no movement speed at all; do you mean being turned into one of those (while under the FoM effect) will allow you to move "as usual"?
How about the Dex 0 or Str 0?

[Maximum Carnage]

Honestly, I've always thought that Dire Wolves were a little too powerful for a CR 3 monster. With a +11 to attack rolls and 1d8+10 damage, they just seem a little powerful for the character level they would be facing. I ran a session the other night, and my party of 4 lvl 6s had trouble dealing with a pack of them.

[Goladar]

No - it deals damage when you grappling balor
Or does FoM make you incapable to grapple?

It doesn't say "ONLY magic", but it does list of cases when it work - I summarised them in 1)2)3)
Actually, a lot of things in the game prevent you from moving normally; so, with FoM:
Grapple (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple) - are you suddenly able to move freely while grappling?
Terrain and Obstacles (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#terrainandObstacle s) - are you able to squeeze at full speed, and attack at no penalty?
Or how about various conditions (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/conditions.htm)? Blinded, Exhausted, Staggered, Disabled...
Some creatures in the game just have no movement speed at all; do you mean being turned into one of those (while under the FoM effect) will allow you to move "as usual"?
How about the Dex 0 or Str 0?

How do you interpret the first sentence of the description of FoM? Because to me it seems to says that you can move and attack normally EVEN if there is a magical effect trying to stop you. Meaning that it affects both magical and mundane impediments to your movement.

[Cosi]

There's another one that can be rather unfair to an unprepared party: the Arcanist Varrangoin from Fiend Folio.

These guys are pegged at CR 11, so by the time the party faces one, it should have access to 6th level spells. The problem with this guy:

It has natural flight.

It has SR.

Moderate resistance to all energy types except sonic.

Immune to any spell of 3rd level or lower that allows SR.

Diverse SLAs (the book is 3.0 and has Polymorph Self and Polymorph Other, but I would guess that for 3.5 they would be Polymorph and Baleful Polymorph, as well as Arcane Sight, Flesh to Stone, Mirror Image and Dispel Magic.

Add a few weak melee attacks to its repertoire, but that's not the main issue.

It casts off the bat like a 9th level wizard and if used as a boss with the Elite Array, it gets a nice +6 to Intelligence. In fact, it's advancement is either through HD or as favored class: wizard.

Like al casters, it will rarely be alone, using the lesser varrangoins to overwhelm the party (these annoying buggers can only be hurt with silver weapons, having high DR. If you do kill one, they explode, because... why not?)

Oh, it also gets Scribe Scroll and Craft Wand as bonus feats, so expect one of these to be fully stocked if you go pick a fight with it.

So an ECL 11 party will have access to 6th's, but this guy, even without extra wizard levels, will not be so short behind with 5th's and its SLAs. While flying, dispelling your party, sending minions and maybe casting Flesh to Stone on the party mage.

Of note, they are weak to Sunlight or any Daylight spell which blinds them for 1 round, that's it. But given where they live- the Abyss- chances are you'll be fighting them in their own turf.

That doesn't sound terribly dangerous. You're assuming they get minions, but that would be included in the EL. It's like saying goblins are super deadly because you could encounter a pile of goblins and also the tarrasque, which would easily kill a low level party. That's true, but "goblins + the tarrasque" is no longer a low level encounter.

In any case, I don't really think that sounds much nastier than a moderately optimized 11th level Wizard.

[ShurikVch]

How do you interpret the first sentence of the description of FoM?Brief summary/flavour text
Those are prone to inaccuracies.


Because to me it seems to says that you can move and attack normally EVEN if there is a magical effect trying to stop you. Meaning that it affects both magical and mundane impediments to your movement.OK...
Then how about the Petrified (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#petrified) condition?
Dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dead) condition?
Please, tell me: if Druid, while under FoM effect, wildshapes into one of those 0' speed Plants - will he be able to move? If yes - then with what limbs?

[Zanos]

No - it deals damage when you grappling balor
Or does FoM make you incapable to grapple?

It doesn't say "ONLY magic", but it does list of cases when it work - I summarised them in 1)2)3)
Actually, a lot of things in the game prevent you from moving normally; so, with FoM:
Grapple (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple) - are you suddenly able to move freely while grappling?
Terrain and Obstacles (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#terrainandObstacle s) - are you able to squeeze at full speed, and attack at no penalty?
Or how about various conditions (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/conditions.htm)? Blinded, Exhausted, Staggered, Disabled...
Some creatures in the game just have no movement speed at all; do you mean being turned into one of those (while under the FoM effect) will allow you to move "as usual"?
How about the Dex 0 or Str 0?



Then how about the Petrified (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#petrified) condition?
Dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dead) condition?
Please, tell me: if Druid, while under FoM effect, wildshapes into one of those 0' speed Plants - will he be able to move? If yes - then with what limbs?
I'm not sure why you're citing all these conditions. Many of them can be imposed by non-instantaneous magical effects, and despite any ridiculousness by your argument they would apply.

[Jormengand]

I'm not sure why you're citing all these conditions. Many of them can be imposed by non-instantaneous magical effects, and despite any ridiculousness by your argument they would apply.

This is why we have to be reasonable about the kind of effects that FoM can prevent from working rather than being anal about what's actually written down.

Not that this argument matters, since I don't think I have ever actually seen a player in a real game cast freedom of movement, so I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it's one of those things like mind blank which is a "Standard defence" that no-one in real games actually uses.

[heavyfuel]

Not that this argument matters, since I don't think I have ever actually seen a player in a real game cast freedom of movement, so I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it's one of those things like mind blank which is a "Standard defence" that no-one in real games actually uses.

You've never seen a player buy a Ring of Freedom of Movement? :smallconfused:

This happens literally every campaign I play/DM past level 12 or so

[Nifft]

Not that this argument matters, since I don't think I have ever actually seen a player in a real game cast freedom of movement, so I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it's one of those things like mind blank which is a "Standard defence" that no-one in real games actually uses.

Mind blank was regularly used in a level 15+ game that I ran.

It is a real-game, actually-used, very helpful spell.

[Cosi]

I am deeply confused at the notion that the phrase "even under the influence of magic" is somehow supposed to include mundane effects. If it included mundane effects, it would say "effects that that usually impede movement", not "magic that usually impedes movement". This is not even slightly complicated. What is complicated is what "normally" and "impedes movement" mean. Really, what it should say is something like "ignore any magical effect that would reduce your movement speed or prevent you from taking move actions." Now you have to ask weird questions about interactions with e.g. forecage, which is dumb and bad.

[Jormengand]

You've never seen a player buy a Ring of Freedom of Movement? :smallconfused:

This happens literally every campaign I play/DM past level 12 or so

I haven't, no. Wizardry and sustenance are the more popular ones.


Mind blank was regularly used in a level 15+ game that I ran.

It is a real-game, actually-used, very helpful spell.

Mind blank I've actually seen used, but nothing like to the extent that optimisation theory would have you believe, where enchantments are just useless because everyone is mind blanked all the time.

[Svata]

I have never cast Mind Blank. I just always happen to either play an undead or buy a Third Eye Conceal.

[Florian]

You've never seen a player buy a Ring of Freedom of Movement? :smallconfused:

This happens literally every campaign I play/DM past level 12 or so

I´ve had one Ring drop as random loot, but that´s pretty much it. So far, I´ve never had to deal with any of the supposedly ubiquitous "mage tactics" that are thrown around on this board, beginning with FoM or Mind Blank.

@Jormengard:

The "problem" is not with FoM, it´s how the whip special attack is worded and handled. It replicates combat maneuvers without using the appropriate rules, therefore its a guessing-game how it should be handled.

[Zanos]

I frequently use FoM on my non-frontline characters, either as a ring, through heart of water, or a casting of it. Mind blank too, but less commonly. I in fact just used it in a PbP game to get out of tentacles, and in my roll20 game last week to escape an ogutyh grapple and move through some BFC spells.

So I'd say I get some mileage out of it.

Rings of wizardry are hilariously expensive for what they do.

[Zaydos]

The whip has 20 HP and can be sundered. It's not hard to escape. The unfair bit of the balor is Summon Demon because it's CR explicitly includes there being a 2nd balor via a Standard Action, coupled with At-Will Blasphemy and you have to be able to take out a balor before it gets its 2nd turn, be deaf, or lose.

That said for 4 20th level characters taking out a balor before it gets it's second turn isn't hard for the casters or ToB melee (A warblade that can get within melee range has about a 20% chance of one-shotting a balor with Iron Heart's 9th, the other one shot ones require the ability to charge into melee which is iffy, or to reach melee as a swift action).

If the balor pulls you in through the whip and starts dealing 6d6 fire damage to you/round, either you're the wizard (teleport out), you're the rogue (don't bother with escape artist you can now sneak attack while the fighter flanks, Improved Evasion to survive the fireblast), you're the fighter (this is where you want to be, you may die but 1 death of a non-cleric puts this as an average encounter as True Res and a 9th level spell from the wizard is only about 20% of the daily resources), or you're the cleric (cast Resist Elements, then touch range kill spells). In a low op party the Balor does not want you entangled adjacent to it, that's the quickest way to have you kill it. In a high op party the Balor is dead anyway.

[Florian]

In a low op party the Balor does not want you entangled adjacent to it, that's the quickest way to have you kill it. In a high op party the Balor is dead anyway.

The level-range we talk about, a Balor is an absurdly uninteresting monster anyways. Last time I had some in play, the first got one-shot by an Barbarian, the second was turned into a pin-cushion by an Archer-Paladin. Poof, end of story by directly applied raw damage.

[Zanos]

coupled with At-Will Blasphemy and you have to be able to take out a balor before it gets its 2nd turn, be deaf, or lose.
I'd have to double check, but I'm fairly certain that being deaf doesn't actually block sonic effects. And blasphemy specifically says it works whether or not the subjects hear it.

[Maximum Carnage]

It's good to see this thread devolving into a pointless argument about FoM....

[Zsaber0]

Will-O-Wisp (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/willOWisp.htm)

Screw this guy, and everything about his CR 6 entry.

[Jormengand]

The level-range we talk about, a Balor is an absurdly uninteresting monster anyways. Last time I had some in play, the first got one-shot by an Barbarian, the second was turned into a pin-cushion by an Archer-Paladin. Poof, end of story by directly applied raw damage.

I think that the fact that you believe falsehoods about how much damage archers do to evil outsiders is well established, actually, thanks.

[Florian]

I think that the fact that you believe falsehoods about how much damage archers do to evil outsiders is well established, actually, thanks.

I guess you haven´t seen a PF Paladin in action. Smite Evil after a simple Litany of Righteousness w/o regarding feats or other buffs is 200 points of unavoidable damage alone. We can go from there and end up in the 800 DPR range w/o needing to go into extreme shenanigans. This is partly the reason why you´ll find Samsarans snagging Paladin spells for high-powered Cleric-Archer builds.

Edit: If you want to check a build for yourself, look at Oath of Vengeance and the spells Wrath, Divine Favor, Greater Named Bullet and Saddle Surge and you´re practically there.

Friendly advice: Before you accuse someone of spreading falsehoods, do have a talk about the capabilities of high-level martials.

[noob]

I haven't, no. Wizardry and sustenance are the more popular ones.



Mind blank I've actually seen used, but nothing like to the extent that optimisation theory would have you believe, where enchantments are just useless because everyone is mind blanked all the time.

At the table where I am playing all my team is in permanent mind blank and all the dangerous npcs too.

[FreddyNoNose]

Mind blank was regularly used in a level 15+ game that I ran.

It is a real-game, actually-used, very helpful spell.

I have to agree with this.

[Zaydos]

Yeah balor can be taken down pretty quickly, it has one potential game breaking strategy, and if you're playing it at that level against 'standard Fighter/Rogue/Blaster/Healbot' then you might have a tpk, against a team played on the same (rather simplistic) level you're dealing with a coin flip or a speed bump. It's actually pretty well pegged CR wise.

Now huge elementals get troublesome. The right spell can take one out, sometimes, but with 136-152 HP at CR 7, 2 attacks at +17 to +20, 18-21 AC, DR 5, 15 ft reach, and... well actually rather reasonable 13-24 damage/attack depending upon elemental. Still your standard low op melee character has +13/+8 to hit (+15/+10 as a raging barb) and deals ~14-17 damage/hit, with about 70-80 hp, and you can see a problem. Oh you know that super under CRed CR 7 dragon? 110 HP, 3 attacks dealing ~6 damage/hit at +14 to hit, worse flight than the air elemental, 5 ft reach and 22 AC. Well alright, that's the Black Dragon, the CR 7 red shapes up better at 123 hp, +19/+19/+14/+14/+14 or +20/+18/+18/+17/+17 or some variation based upon feats (remember not optimizing the dragon to kill all the things), 30 damage AoE 1/1d4 rounds, flight (still worse than the air elemental's), 10 ft reach with 1 attack a round, 14/7.5/7.5/6.5/6.5, 21 AC, and CL 1 which might mean Shield spell, or if the DM is playing it smart and making it more dangerous Mage Armor. Still unless the DM is trying to make the Red Dragon strong (which skews its CR) it's weaker than the huge elemental. Bronze comes in as weaker than the red but with save or flee the fight for 6 rounds, still weaker than the elemental probably, but that repulsion gas is nasty (metallics are OP), Copper is weaker than bronze, CR 7 Gold is just an inferior red with no casting.

Point being elementals > dragons in power for their CR (the dragons are under CR'd boss encounters was true of 3.0 and many of the Planar Dragons, but 3.5 upped dragon CRs by about .75 across the board for pre-existing ones which brought them in line as maybe a standard deviation stronger than average but not overt outliers... it also then immediately introduced ways to optimize them into under CRed boss encounters but mostly that just means you can optimize them to match the PCs' own optimization).

[Florian]

Agreed. At around CR 7, even the best build has not come into its own and is lacking the necessary synergy to deal efficiently with that kind of threat.

[Inevitability]

I'd have to double check, but I'm fairly certain that being deaf doesn't actually block sonic effects. And blasphemy specifically says it works whether or not the subjects hear it.

Silence does, though. The balor may be able to dispel it, but its actions are more valuable than yours.

[Florian]

Silence does, though. The balor may be able to dispel it, but its actions are more valuable than yours.

Silence is a very good example for a low-level spell beating a high-level effect. I think we see a lot of this when talking about Alips and other critters.

[Zaydos]

Silence does, though. The balor may be able to dispel it, but its actions are more valuable than yours.

Which ultimately serves my point, balor can be a tpk if played really smart against an unprepared party (summon balor, summoned balor blasphemes), actually I forgot the summon gets an immediate turn (I'm fairly sure the game designers forgot that RAW the summon was a standard action and got an immediate turn), but isn't really stronger than CR 20 unless played at it's smartest and the party isn't really ready for it.

Pit Fiend could do the same thing except its CL is 18 (and this is why Pit Fiend is substantially the weakest CR 20 creature sans Wish abuse).

[Zaq]

Will-O-Wisp (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/willOWisp.htm)

Screw this guy, and everything about his CR 6 entry.

I cannot agree strongly enough.

[Cosi]

Has someone mentioned Lantern Archons yet? Because if not, Lantern Archons. At CR 2 it has DR 10/nope, flies faster than you walk, and has at-will teleport. Your only chance is to hope that the party Wizard was stupid enough to prep blasting spells and manages to kill it before he gets shredded by its light rays.

Also, Half Dragons that land at CR 3. 6d8 is no joke against 3rd level characters.

[Florian]

Funny. Now packing blasting spells is good tactics? Who´d have thought that...?

Edit: It´s actually like prepping MM to take down a shadow or WoW instead of CS or GD. Who´d have thought?

[Cosi]

Funny. Now packing blasting spells is good tactics? Who´d have thought that...?

Edit: It´s actually like prepping MM to take down a shadow or WoW instead of CS or GD. Who´d have thought?

Prepping blasting spells is bad 99% of the time, but against monsters like Lantern Archons or Shadows that are immune to everything else the party does, it's your only chance (and even then, you still have to get lucky). Would you consider a CR 2 monster that TPKed you if you hadn't prepped alarm or unseen servant fair?

[Zaydos]

Hey, don't forget that Lantern Archons have at-will Aid, it only lasts 3 minutes, but it can start with 4-11 extra hp, and then if the wizard does blast can spend an actions to go 'I have temp hp again, pfff'.

[AlanBruce]

That doesn't sound terribly dangerous. You're assuming they get minions, but that would be included in the EL. It's like saying goblins are super deadly because you could encounter a pile of goblins and also the tarrasque, which would easily kill a low level party. That's true, but "goblins + the tarrasque" is no longer a low level encounter.

In any case, I don't really think that sounds much nastier than a moderately optimized 11th level Wizard.

Their entry reads that they do have minions, usually a few Lesser Varrangoins around that explode when killed.

They also have the Rager Varrangoins which, like its name implies, Rages like a barbarian, has Dispel Magic as a SLA, can poison, rend and, best of all:

Like a Choker, can perform an extra standard or move action each round...at CR 10.

Mind you, these guys are mentioned to accompany an Arcanist Varrangoin in battle. The book mentions they are rarely encountered alone outside their caves and when they do venture out, they have several Lesser and a couple of Rager types in their entourage. Numbers may vary depedning on the party, but still, a nasty bunch of guys.

[Cosi]

Hey, don't forget that Lantern Archons have at-will Aid, it only lasts 3 minutes, but it can start with 4-11 extra hp, and then if the wizard does blast can spend an actions to go 'I have temp hp again, pfff'.

Yup. That plus teleport means you have to hit it for 8 to 15 points, through DR 10, in one round, or it gets away.


Their entry reads that they do have minions, usually a few Lesser Varrangoins around that explode when killed.

They also have the Rager Varrangoins which, like its name implies, Rages like a barbarian, has Dispel Magic as a SLA, can poison, rend and, best of all:

Like a Choker, can perform an extra standard or move action each round...at CR 10.

Mind you, these guys are mentioned to accompany an Arcanist Varrangoin in battle. The book mentions they are rarely encountered alone outside their caves and when they do venture out, they have several Lesser and a couple of Rager types in their entourage. Numbers may vary depedning on the party, but still, a nasty bunch of guys.

Sure? An Arcanist Varra-whatever, two Lessers, and a Rager is (IIRC) an EL 13 encounter. That seems fair to me. Is there some ability they have that's supposed to give them minions as part of their CR?

[Florian]

Prepping blasting spells is bad 99% of the time, but against monsters like Lantern Archons or Shadows that are immune to everything else the party does, it's your only chance (and even then, you still have to get lucky). Would you consider a CR 2 monster that TPKed you if you hadn't prepped alarm or unseen servant fair?

There´re two ways to look at this. You go by what´s the most powerful option or you look at what critters are out there at your level and you prep to deal with them.

[AlanBruce]

Sure? An Arcanist Varra-whatever, two Lessers, and a Rager is (IIRC) an EL 13 encounter. That seems fair to me. Is there some ability they have that's supposed to give them minions as part of their CR?

Their combat entry states that they always fight with several Lesser and a couple of Ragers. Their entry says that they are found "Alone or in a Clutch", which I assume means the aforementioned lesser and Rager Varrangoins.

[Nifft]

There´re two ways to look at this. You go by what´s the most powerful option or you look at what critters are out there at your level and you prep to deal with them.

The 3rd way to deal with a Lantern Archon is to not be evil.

Joyce Summers: "Have you tried not being evil?"

[Florian]

The 3rd way to deal with a Lantern Archon is to not be evil.

Joyce Summers: "Have you tried not being evil?"

*Laughs*

Notice that a good deal of advice on this board has you be evil, else it wouldn't work? Funny, that.

[Cosi]

There´re two ways to look at this. You go by what´s the most powerful option or you look at what critters are out there at your level and you prep to deal with them.

The points you gain by prepping burning hands in hopes of fighting a Lantern Archon are way less than the points you lose from not having color spray against all the other monsters. Smarter people than you have crunched the numbers and figured out that color spray is what you want to be doing.


Their combat entry states that they always fight with several Lesser and a couple of Ragers. Their entry says that they are found "Alone or in a Clutch", which I assume means the aforementioned lesser and Rager Varrangoins.

Yes. That's a group encounter and has a higher EL as a result. Just as the 40-lemure "mob" has a different EL than a single lemure.

[Florian]

Cosi, you´re fun to talk to. When evaluation options, there´s a difference between floor and ceiling, but you also have to weight occurrence. I readily agree that some things are more powerful, but they actually have to come up so that power can be brought to bear and this is where discussions tend to diverge from real tables.

[noob]

For example on the table where people are doing a 100% undead campaign(oh no the walls and the floor and the planet is undead even the sun is an undead) good prepared lists do not have any mind effecting stuff.
I kind of like how level 7 adventurers do not gets any exp from beating an infinite army of orcs.
kobolds with class levels are unfairly powerful even before you start splat book kobold cheese due to that:


Kobolds with levels in NPC classes have a CR equal to their character level -3.
Okay so a kobold with four levels in adept is cr 1?
Searing ray as a cr 1 encounter it can probably deal 4d6 to a random team member(probably killing it) and then still have a bunch of level 1 spells.

[Florian]

@noob:

Oh noes! Disrupt Undead is a killer cantrip! Wilma, hide the children in the cellar, the end is neigh!

[TotallyNotEvil]

Will-O-Wisp (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/willOWisp.htm)

Screw this guy, and everything about his CR 6 entry.

****. Those. Things.

[noob]

Oh noes! Disrupt Undead is a killer cantrip! Wilma, hide the children in the cellar, the end is neigh!

I did not understood.
I never said that taking disrupt undead was a good idea.(unless facing dr you are better off using a crossbow unless you are fighting a shadow but that is still rare in an undead heavy campaign(unless your gm thinks he can re-kill the undead adventurers with shadows?))
Someone with disrupt undead would probably be an evil re-murderer.(like the evil priests of the undead destroying evil Pelor)

[Cosi]

Cosi, you´re fun to talk to. When evaluation options, there´s a difference between floor and ceiling, but you also have to weight occurrence. I readily agree that some things are more powerful, but they actually have to come up so that power can be brought to bear and this is where discussions tend to diverge from real tables.

Uh, what? This sounds like you restating my point less clearly and claiming it as your point.


Okay so a kobold with four levels in adept is cr 1?
Searing ray as a cr 1 encounter it can probably deal 4d6 to a random team member(probably killing it) and then still have a bunch of level 1 spells.

That's not even close to the nastiest thing kobolds can do. Take the thing that gives you a 1st level spell 1/day, then smack the party with power word pain from four CR 1/4 Kobolds, which is very close to a guaranteed TPK at 1st level.

[PraxisVetli]

If it wasn't said, I believe the go-to for Revived Fossil is Baboon.
Also, a holla to the Will-o-wisp.
+13 Init, 29 AC, +16 to its touch attack, and on top of its golem-like immunity to magic, it's invisible.
Had some fun times with them.


Also, yeah, Drowned are unreal. Closest I ever got to a TPK.

Ninja'd on the Wisp.
Probably since they're invisible.

[danielxcutter]

If it wasn't said, I believe the go-to for Revived Fossil is Baboon.

Ouch...


Also, a holla to the Will-o-wisp.
+13 Init, 29 AC, +16 to its touch attack, and on top of its golem-like immunity to magic, it's invisible.
Had some fun times with them.

Was mentioned, but those guys are stronger than I thought. How is that CR 6?

I do not want to see what one with Rogue levels would be like...


Also, yeah, Drowned are unreal. Closest I ever got to a TPK.

What CR would you actually peg them at?

[PraxisVetli]

Ouch...



Was mentioned, but those guys are stronger than I thought. How is that CR 6?

I do not want to see what one with Rogue levels would be like...



What CR would you actually peg them at?

I don't know man.
But I had a party of a thri-kreen swordsage, a were-panther Stalker (we use PoW), a tibbet Harbinger, human Warmage and a Entomanothrope wasp/Goblin Master of Flies.
Level 10.
Against 2 Drowned.
Three unconcious, warmage dead, and the lycan pulling the bodies as fast as he could.
It was ugly as Baator.

[danielxcutter]

I don't know man.
But I had a party of a thri-kreen swordsage, a were-panther Stalker (we use PoW), a tibbet Harbinger, human Warmage and a Entomanothrope wasp/Goblin Master of Flies.
Level 10.
Against 2 Drowned.
Three unconcious, warmage dead, and the lycan pulling the bodies as fast as he could.
It was ugly as Baator.

Yeah, those things are not CR 8 or anywhere near that at all.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Yeah, those things are not CR 8 or anywhere near that at all.

They have an Aura that forces Save or start-dying-with-no-'out'-option-in-the-game. Every. Round. With a progressively better chance of failure with each subsequent round. It forces you to start Drowning but overriding the normal "Can hold breath for Con score x2" rule with a DC 10 Con check, which improves by +1 every round. Not a Fort save, a Con check. Even for a Raging Barbarian, that is very easy check to fail with one bad roll. It also has a fat stack of 150 HP (tons for an Undead) and Fast Healing 5. It's tough to chew through that HP fast enough unless you've got some optimized damage dealers or the perfect spell at your disposal.

Honestly, they don't fit into the CR system at all. Nothing in the game protects against its Drowning Aura besides pumping up ones Constitution. A level 20 Raging Barbarian has the best shot of going for more than 1 round. It would need to have its Aura mechanics reworked to be a regular Fort Save to be even have a CR assigned.

[Cosi]

It's an aura that kills you quickly, or slowly if you have a big pile of CON. How is that different from just CON damage, or even HP damage? I mean, it's harder to heal, but it doesn't really sound "outside the CR system" -- especially with Vile damage existing.

[danielxcutter]

It's an aura that kills you quickly, or slowly if you have a big pile of CON. How is that different from just CON damage, or even HP damage? I mean, it's harder to heal, but it doesn't really sound "outside the CR system" -- especially with Vile damage existing.

Except unlike CON damage you can't act while drowning if I remember correctly.

[Zanos]

Yes, the drowned description specifically states that the first failed checks drops you immediately into unconsciousness. With con modifiers of around +2 to probably at the most +5, a DC 10 check on the entire party vs being removed from combat is not a good time.

Even if the party also has 20 con, the drowned drops at least 1 person on the first rounds 68% of the time, assuming a 4 man party. And of course, +1 DC on each subsequent round.

[MesiDoomstalker]

It's an aura that kills you quickly, or slowly if you have a big pile of CON. How is that different from just CON damage, or even HP damage? I mean, it's harder to heal, but it doesn't really sound "outside the CR system" -- especially with Vile damage existing.

Because there is exactly 2 defenses against it (besides running). Not breathing Air to begin with, or having a spell that lets you stop breathing Air. Note; being able to breathe in water doesn't help. It only affects Airbreathers, so Waterbreathing doesn't help. Admittedly, a few popular races have the first one down (Necropolitan, Warforged, etc) but the second is almost non-existent. There's one spell I know of, which is generally terrible as it turns a Air-breather into a Water-breather (whilst losing the abililty to breathe Air). Even in this context, that means you are still drowning, but at the slower rate.

This is different compared to taking Con Damage/Drain which can be immunized, deterred, or healed actively through a variety of methods. Also speed. I don't know of any Con damage/drain effect that takes 2 rounds to kill any and all targets in range without a single action taken on the monster's part. Same with Damage. Damage can be diminished (DR), immunized (albeit, this requires great effort/cheese) or can be actively healed.

My point, I guess, is you have no recourse besides to flee. Unless you have the one spell, put in a different book and is generally terrible and only affects 1 person per casting.

EDIT: It also doesn't kill you slowly. It kills you fast unless you are playing a Monstrous PC whose race has a stupidly high Con Score. A Con of 28 (which is way above what can be expected when facing a CR 8) auto-passes the first check. A Con score less than 28 can start drowning turn 1, if the roll is bad enough. And again. No action required, all targets in range.

[Zaydos]

Drowned is interesting design. The drowning aura is not the problem all by itself. It's an extremely powerful killing ability, which can be avoided by walking out of it (do you check before or after action it really should say, though I'm guessing drowning rules tell), can be prevented by some niche effects or being an aquatic race (anything that breathes water is fine). Also note being able to breathe water does just fine ('are treated as if beneath water in terms of being able to breathe.' Then moves on to how it affects standard breath holding rules), and it nowhere mentions 'breathe air' or 'air breathing' the closest is the above line. (Also level 20 Raging Barbarian will have +9 or +10 Con, which isn't best chance of lasting more than 1 round, it's 95% or 100% depending upon which one)

The problem is it's a 'have this protection or die' monster as written with 150 HP which is a lot for its CR and admittedly rather average AC, enough hit dice to ignore turning, +12 Will save, and undead immunities.

A Lv 12 Warblade can use Pouncing Charge and Dancing Mongoose to get 5 attacks at +18/+18/+18/+13/+8 (PA 6 included) for 2d4+3 (enhance)+9 (Str)+18 (Leap Attack)+12 (Leading the Charge)+2d6 (holy) or 216 damage average.

I'd guess late line CR 11 actually, maybe 12. Non-core mid op can one round them 1 on 1 at 12 but there's a chance of failure (the above Warblade would have +3 Con most likely, maybe +4, so has a 70% chance of surviving to charge which gives a near total chance of one-shot, if unable to charge because it closed into melee first the chance of victory drops to about 40%, which puts it at an 11, maybe 12 if we accept this as an 'above average' warblade in some way). If I was throwing them at pure core, classic 4 person party I'd say higher but while they're dangerous in the same sense that a basilisk is dangerous (they can with some bad luck on the PC's side TPK a party that should be able to beat them) they're not outside the CR system.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I say they are outside the CR system because there is no sense of scale with their Aura. It kills almost everything equally fast up until the high levels, where some builds start not dying right away. On a no-Action, AoE.

[Zaq]

I say they are outside the CR system because there is no sense of scale with their Aura. It kills almost everything equally fast up until the high levels, where some builds start not dying right away. On a no-Action, AoE.

Agreed. They're a really, really bad example of the wrong kind of puzzle monster. (A good puzzle monster relies way more on your decisions while fighting it than on your preparations ahead of time. A bad puzzle monster is basically "if you prepared a hard counter, you win; if you didn't prepare in the right way, you lose.")


If it wasn't said, I believe the go-to for Revived Fossil is Baboon.

Just for funsies, here's the Revived Fossil Baboon:

27 HP
AC 23
DR 10/adamantine
Undead immunities (including crits and precision damage)
Immune to mind-affecting abilities
Two claws doing 2d6 + 2 damage each
Speed 40 ft, climb 30 ft
Combat Reflexes
CR ONE

Yeah, find me a level 1 character who can take that thing on in anything resembling a fair fight. I would bet against a friggin' warforged Crusader fighting that thing at level 1, and warforged Crusaders are basically tiny gods at level 1! At best, you might be able to Turn it and run away. Since it's mindless, you can perhaps trick it into leaving you alone with Silent Image or something. But you'll notice that both of those involve running the hell away rather than actually defeating it mano a mano. And while there's a place for monsters that are meant to be avoided rather than smashed, that doesn't mean that CR 1 is anything resembling appropriate here.

[Inevitability]

Which ultimately serves my point, balor can be a tpk if played really smart against an unprepared party (summon balor, summoned balor blasphemes), actually I forgot the summon gets an immediate turn (I'm fairly sure the game designers forgot that RAW the summon was a standard action and got an immediate turn), but isn't really stronger than CR 20 unless played at it's smartest and the party isn't really ready for it.

Pit Fiend could do the same thing except its CL is 18 (and this is why Pit Fiend is substantially the weakest CR 20 creature sans Wish abuse).

Silence is one of the best spells a high-level wizard can prepare in their second-level slots, though, and with moderate optimization it's not unlikely the wizard gets to go first.

[Nifft]

Silence is one of the best spells a high-level wizard can prepare in their second-level slots, though, and with moderate optimization it's not unlikely the wizard gets to go first.

Wizards get Silence?

[ryu]

Wizards get Silence?

I mean with access to various feats? Or if they took UMD to give their familiar effective spellcasting from wands, but in that case they have even better options. Even on their own list we've straight dismissal or banishment if said outsider isn't being fought on its turf.

[Inevitability]

Wizards get Silence?

Substitute with cleric if necessary. They may miss out on some of the initiative buffs, but beating a +11 should still be possible for them.

[Florian]

I say they are outside the CR system because there is no sense of scale with their Aura. It kills almost everything equally fast up until the high levels, where some builds start not dying right away. On a no-Action, AoE.

Critters like "Drowned" are interesting to analyze. It´s clear what´s been tried here, using an environment effect as part of a creature. We can also see what went wrong.

[danielxcutter]

Critters like "Drowned" are interesting to analyze. It´s clear what´s been tried here, using an environment effect as part of a creature. We can also see what went wrong.

The idea is cool, the actual fight is hell. Cranium Rat Swarms are my least favorite monster currently, but these are a close second.

[Florian]

The idea is cool, the actual fight is hell. Cranium Rat Swarms are my least favorite monster currently, but these are a close second.

I think it´s possible to simply sum it up: Any critter with a CR lower than the level you gain the appropriate counter to it will be a problem.

[danielxcutter]

I think it´s possible to simply sum it up: Any critter with a CR lower than the level you gain the appropriate counter to it will be a problem.

Oh yeah, that sounds right. Honestly Drowned still sound like a pain even if you manage to solve that aura.

[Jormengand]

Looking at the epic stuff, it seems like the writers thought that all players would suddenly become massively stronger at epic levels, with their ability to cast epic spells (once per day, and they can't make the checks to cast most of the good ones, and...) but they generally don't. At least, not enough to kill all this stuff:

A monster which I consider to be unfair is the Shape of Fire. Not because it's necessarily difficult to fight (you're 26th level, a big sack of HP that does fire damage shouldn't really cause you any problems), but Blazefire is nasty. I'm sorry, but you have to save seven times at a high DC (high even for epic levels, honestly) against losing 10 hit points each time, permanently? In D&D, even death isn't permanent. Blazefire? Is. The Lavawight is nasty for the same reasons only less so (and of course the Shape of Fire turns anyone it kills into one). The shadow of the void and winterwight are the same story with cold damage. The phane is also somewhat unfair for its ability to inflict death by old age on the target.

The Stone Colossus and its 100-ft radius AMF that doesn't affect the colossus' own Su abilities is nasty, especially when practically no martial character - even an epic one - will be able to fight it without magic equipment, especially since only epic adamantine weapons can get through its DR and you can't have an epic weapon in an AMF! Fortunately its senses are terrible, but it could be very nasty if someone stumbles across one. Obviously people will be like "But no-one would ever fight one without all the proper preparations!" I'm sorry have you played with real players? They do dumb stuff like that all the time.

The gibbering orb forces a nearly-impossible save each round or be insane, which is hilarious... it then fires twenty-four spells a round at the survivors because that's okay. CR 27, but still. Ha-nagas have 21st-level casting at CR 22, as well as having better everything than a real level-21 sorcerer. Oh, and there's the hagunemnon, who has regeneration 50/- and the ability to copy four ex abilities from anything that isn't a god, such as that nasty AMF I was talking about earlier or anything else that's horrible. That's just unfair whatever number you put at its CR, pretty much.

Copy everything that is wrong with swarms onto the ruin swarm only more so. Dealing 725 damage to the damn thing with area evocations is a hard challenge even at 23rd level (it's immune to everything else), oh and better be quick because it has fast healing 15, and doing so while having to take a DC 45 fortitude save each round is practically impossible. The damage it deals isn't even that much, it's just the fact that it slowly grinds you to pieces.

The elder titan casts spells as a wiz 29/clr 29 (yes, both of them) at CR 30. Of course it has a thousand hit points, DR, SR and more epic feats than is entirely okay. And of course it's barely possible to land a hit on it.

[Florian]

"Epic" stuff being totally borked is nothing new.

[danielxcutter]

Looking at the epic stuff, it seems like the writers thought that all players would suddenly become massively stronger at epic levels, with their ability to cast epic spells (once per day, and they can't make the checks to cast most of the good ones, and...) but they generally don't. At least, not enough to kill all this stuff:

To be fair, epic spells are powerful, as are many epic caster feats... and most others suck, yeah.


A monster which I consider to be unfair is the Shape of Fire. Not because it's necessarily difficult to fight (you're 26th level, a big sack of HP that does fire damage shouldn't really cause you any problems),

Mmhm, okay...


but Blazefire is nasty. I'm sorry, but you have to save seven times at a high DC (high even for epic levels, honestly) against losing 10 hit points each time, permanently?

...what the hells?!

In D&D, even death isn't permanent. Blazefire? Is.[/quote]

Let me guess; even Restoration, Regeneration, and Heal don't work, do they? What about Wish(though if you're using Wish to restore them, you're probably burning off most of the XP you got from killing the damn thing in the first place)?


The Lavawight is nasty for the same reasons only less so (and of course the Shape of Fire turns anyone it kills into one). The shadow of the void and winterwight are the same story with cold damage.

Oh bother...


The phane is also somewhat unfair for its ability to inflict death by old age on the target.

Oh yeeeaah, death by old age means you can't be rezzed, right?


The Stone Colossus and its 100-ft radius AMF that doesn't affect the colossus' own Su abilities is nasty, especially when practically no martial character - even an epic one - will be able to fight it without magic equipment, especially since only epic adamantine weapons can get through its DR and you can't have an epic weapon in an AMF! Fortunately its senses are terrible, but it could be very nasty if someone stumbles across one. Obviously people will be like "But no-one would ever fight one without all the proper preparations!" I'm sorry have you played with real players? They do dumb stuff like that all the time.

a) Yup, most people don't care that much(and later regret it), if what I hear is true.

b) I'm pretty sure that at the CR you're supposed to fight them, the only thing that might work is a Warlock with Vitrolic Blast and Eldritch Spear. Sure, the Orb of X series works too, but how many spell slots can you spare at that level?


The gibbering orb forces a nearly-impossible save each round or be insane, which is hilarious...

Well, at that level Mind Blank should be fairly common...


...it then fires twenty-four spells a round at the survivors because that's okay. CR 27, but still...

Wait, what?!


Ha-nagas have 21st-level casting at CR 22, as well as having better everything than a real level-21 sorcerer.

Define "everything". Sounds stupidly powerful, though.


Oh, and there's the hagunemnon, who has regeneration 50/- and the ability to copy four ex abilities from anything that isn't a god, such as that nasty AMF I was talking about earlier or anything else that's horrible. That's just unfair whatever number you put at its CR, pretty much.

...the AMF was an Ex ability?! WTF?!

Any suggestions what a vindictive DM might have them copy?


Copy everything that is wrong with swarms onto the ruin swarm only more so. Dealing 725 damage to the damn thing with area evocations is a hard challenge even at 23rd level (it's immune to everything else), oh and better be quick because it has fast healing 15, and doing so while having to take a DC 45 fortitude save each round is practically impossible. The damage it deals isn't even that much, it's just the fact that it slowly grinds you to pieces.

Oooookaaaaay. That's gotta suck. Like, a lot.


The elder titan casts spells as a wiz 29/clr 29 (yes, both of them) at CR 30. Of course it has a thousand hit points, DR, SR and more epic feats than is entirely okay. And of course it's barely possible to land a hit on it.

That thing is a gestalt character on steroids. In a non-gestalt game. Now that's just unfair.









Edit:



"Epic" stuff being totally borked is nothing new.


Yeah, but I wasn't expecting this borked.

[Florian]

Yeah, but I wasn't expecting this borked.

What do you expect? It´s what´s happening when you take a system that brakes down around a certain level and decide to add more levels on top.

[danielxcutter]

What do you expect? It´s what´s happening when you take a system that brakes down around a certain level and decide to add more levels on top.

I was expecting it to be borked in the other direction, actually.

[Zaydos]

I was expecting it to be borked in the other direction, actually.

I also seem to remember AC begins to increase faster relative to CR and attack bonus increases more slowly so melee ends up even more borkedly weak.

[Svata]

I found phanes bad but not unbearably so. Then again, I was playing an undead soooo...

[danielxcutter]

I also seem to remember AC begins to increase faster relative to CR and attack bonus increases more slowly so melee ends up even more borkedly weak.

Face, meet palm. Palm, meet face. Ugh... :smallmad:

[Florian]

@Jormengand:

Today is a national holiday, so I´ve taken my time and actually go look for the character sheet of the Paladin as it was played during Wrath of the Righteous, which I gm´ed.
Doing you the favor of calculating out the Mythic levels, the final build stays unchanged: Human Life-Oracle 4/Paladin 16. Feat chains are PBS to Precise Shot, Mounted Combat to Mounted Archery and Blinded Blade Style up to Blinded Master, along with Oath of Vengeance, with a sprinkle of Greater Mercy and Ultimate Mercy for effect.

The result is impressive and I do expect an apology from you at that point.

[Schattenbach]

Let me guess; even Restoration, Regeneration, and Heal don't work, do they? What about Wish(though if you're using Wish to restore them, you're probably burning off most of the XP you got from killing the damn thing in the first place)?

Alter Reality might work, but restoring them through Magic doesn't (so Wish and Miracle and Epic spells fail at that ... on that note, Wish/Miracle/Epic Spells should still count as "mortal magic", so they should usually fail to work whenever mortal magic or magic in general doesn't work).


Define "everything". Sounds stupidly powerful, though.

More or less this:


Ha-Naga are quite powerful for their CR22 (arguably vastly superior to both Balors and Pit Fiends), what with that buckload of stats (at the level or even beyond that of Archfiends), Colossal size, 21 level of sorcerer casting (with Sorcerer+Cleric+Evil & Chaos domain spells) on their 20 HD chassis (that's better than Sorcerer 20 by a long shot). Their SU Charm Monster Gaze would also provide them with quite a lot of minions of they felt like it. They#re also only one HD away from epic spellcasting.

See also their SRD entry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/haNaga.htm). They're arguably also (with ECL26 ... alongside stuff like the No-Int but 50HD/ECL25 Ruin Swarm, 70 HD/ECL70 Elder Titan and some other monsters from the epic level handbook) supposedly playable, but ...

[Jormengand]

@Jormengand:

Today is a national holiday, so I´ve taken my time and actually go look for the character sheet of the Paladin as it was played during Wrath of the Righteous, which I gm´ed.
Doing you the favor of calculating out the Mythic levels, the final build stays unchanged: Human Life-Oracle 4/Paladin 16. Feat chains are PBS to Precise Shot, Mounted Combat to Mounted Archery and Blinded Blade Style up to Blinded Master, along with Oath of Vengeance, with a sprinkle of Greater Mercy and Ultimate Mercy for effect.

The result is impressive and I do expect an apology from you at that point.

I'm sorry for the events in your life that led you to be this way?

But seriously, more "Evil outsiders can't melt steel archers"? Dude, this is getting boring now. Stop it.


I was expecting it to be borked in the other direction, actually.

Oh, a lot of it is. Like the behemoth creatures which are just sacks of meat and the LeShay which is an epic elf fairy with two-weapon fighting, and so forth. Oh, and that CR 21 slime that loses to a commoner with a torch! There's also a special mention to the CR 35 beatstick which is the primal fire elemental.

[danielxcutter]

Alter Reality might work, but restoring them through Magic doesn't (so Wish and Miracle and Epic spells fail at that ... on that note, Wish/Miracle/Epic Spells should still count as "mortal magic", so they should usually fail to work whenever mortal magic or magic in general doesn't work).

Oh come on, I thought WotC wasn't that borked.


See also their SRD entry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/haNaga.htm). They're arguably also (with ECL26 ... alongside stuff like the No-Int but 50HD/ECL25 Ruin Swarm, 70 HD/ECL70 Elder Titan and some other monsters from the epic level handbook) supposedly playable, but ...

Actually, most monsters with racial casting are like that, so nothing too new.


I'm sorry for the events in your life that led you to be this way?

But seriously, more "Evil outsiders can't melt steel archers"? Dude, this is getting boring now. Stop it.

Huh? I don't get what you're saying.


Oh, a lot of it is. Like the behemoth creatures which are just sacks of meat and the LeShay which is an epic elf fairy with two-weapon fighting, and so forth. Oh, and that CR 21 slime that loses to a commoner with a torch! There's also a special mention to the CR 35 beatstick which is the primal fire elemental.

And the epic feats that aren't for casters. :smallannoyed:

[Jormengand]

Huh? I don't get what you're saying.

He's been following me from thread to thread, insisting that everyone from PF paladins to 3.5 core fighters are good, because they can do almost (but not quite) enough damage to kill things, if they roll straight 18s and are loaded up with arrows with all possible subtypebanes for the target in question, which is why high-level outsiders are no match for the wrath of a fighter, apparently. It's all very strange.

[Schattenbach]

Oh come on, I thought WotC wasn't that borked.

SU versions of spells could possibly work, too, as at least in this case as - while it outright states that magic doesn't work and "that they're gone for good" - it only outright rules out magic (not mortal means in general), but without Dweomerkeeper around, getting access to that is likely a bit difficult, as there aren't that many sources of SU Wish/Miracle. Though in both cases, its questionable, if they have enough output to heal that reduction, to begin with (Wish used on oneself has the least chance of backfire ... according to the ELH, that is ... so a more powerful SU wish possibly do it, but to be able to both access that and to cast it on oneself complicates things a bit more).

[Eldariel]

Drowned do probably fall prey to Iridescent Spindle Ioun Stone, which I consider standard equipment on high level breathers. But yeah, not in time for CR8.

[Eldariel]

Looking at the epic stuff, it seems like the writers thought that all players would suddenly become massively stronger at epic levels, with their ability to cast epic spells (once per day, and they can't make the checks to cast most of the good ones, and...) but they generally don't. At least, not enough to kill all this stuff:

A monster which I consider to be unfair is the Shape of Fire. Not because it's necessarily difficult to fight (you're 26th level, a big sack of HP that does fire damage shouldn't really cause you any problems), but Blazefire is nasty. I'm sorry, but you have to save seven times at a high DC (high even for epic levels, honestly) against losing 10 hit points each time, permanently? In D&D, even death isn't permanent. B8lazefire? Is. The Lavawight is nasty for the same reasons only less so (and of course the Shape of Fire turns anyone it kills into one). The shadow of the void and winterwight are the same story with cold damage. The phane is also somewhat unfair for its ability to inflict death by old age on the target.

The Stone Colossus and its 100-ft radius AMF that doesn't affect the colossus' own Su abilities is nasty, especially when practically no martial character - even an epic one - will be able to fight it without magic equipment, especially since only epic adamantine weapons can get through its DR and you can't have an epic weapon in an AMF! Fortunately its senses are terrible, but it could be very nasty if someone stumbles across one. Obviously people will be like "But no-one would ever fight one without all the proper preparations!" I'm sorry have you played with real players? They do dumb stuff like that all the time.

The gibbering orb forces a nearly-impossible save each round or be insane, which is hilarious... it then fires twenty-four spells a round at the survivors because that's okay. CR 27, but still. Ha-nagas have 21st-level casting at CR 22, as well as having better everything than a real level-21 sorcerer. Oh, and there's the hagunemnon, who has regeneration 50/- and the ability to copy four ex abilities from anything that isn't a god, such as that nasty AMF I was talking about earlier or anything else that's horrible. That's just unfair whatever number you put at its CR, pretty much.

Copy everything that is wrong with swarms onto the ruin swarm only more so. Dealing 725 damage to the damn thing with area evocations is a hard challenge even at 23rd level (it's immune to everything else), oh and better be quick because it has fast healing 15, and doing so while having to take a DC 45 fortitude save each round is practically impossible. The damage it deals isn't even that much, it's just the fact that it slowly grinds you to pieces.

The elder titan casts spells as a wiz 29/clr 29 (yes, both of them) at CR 30. Of course it has a thousand hit points, DR, SR and more epic feats than is entirely okay. And of course it's barely possible to land a hit on it.

A level 21 Wizard can generally take any of them that lack native spellcasting. Epic Spellcasting is just godmode due to the ease of mitigation. Any buffs, "I win"-spells or whatever are childs' play by then, not to mention the power of pre-epic spells. Martials are just as useless as ever though. Most epic monsters are way over-CRd for competently run solo casters, let alone caster parties.

Viewing it as a game of numbers is fallacious: you should just be immune to the effects or you are dead. It's the baseline epic assumption that you have all the normal immunities.

[Jormengand]

A level 21 Wizard can generally take any of them that lack native spellcasting. Epic Spellcasting is just godmode due to the ease of mitigation. Any buffs, "I win"-spells or whatever are childs' play by then, not to mention the power of pre-epic spells. Martials are just as useless as ever though. Most epic monsters are way over-CRd for competently run solo casters, let alone caster parties.

Viewing it as a game of numbers is fallacious: you should just be immune to the effects or you are dead. It's the baseline epic assumption that you have all the normal immunities.

Assuming that every caster will have a ton of immunities and epic spells that actually do anything useful as a "Baseline" is really odd. Like, I've set up what I think is a relatively normal wizard for an epic game and for a start I didn't even give her ES because more shots of ISC are more useful unless you're doing phenomenally abusive things with ES (in general, more metamagic on your DBFs is way better than hellballs or whatever it is you're doing). Her immunities are to... sleep effects, starvation and suffocation, and she has eighty-nine hit points at 25th level (so yes, she can absolutely kill herself twice over with her 12th-level spells). This is the kind of character I would normally expect to see from someone who hasn't spent years of their life buried in optimisation theory.

Like, Epic Spellcasting is borked on paper because you only need a DC of like 300 or something to destroy the observable universe! That's great and all, but she can hit DC... 58. She can't even cast hellball, much good may it do her if she actually could!

[danielxcutter]

Drowned do probably fall prey to Iridescent Spindle Ioun Stone, which I consider standard equipment on high level breathers. But yeah, not in time for CR8.

What does that do, remove the need for breathing?


A level 21 Wizard can generally take any of them that lack native spellcasting. Epic Spellcasting is just godmode due to the ease of mitigation. Any buffs, "I win"-spells or whatever are childs' play by then, not to mention the power of pre-epic spells. Martials are just as useless as ever though. Most epic monsters are way over-CRd for competently run solo casters, let alone caster parties.

Viewing it as a game of numbers is fallacious: you should just be immune to the effects or you are dead. It's the baseline epic assumption that you have all the normal immunities.

Yeeeaaah, but there's the fact that about 90% of DMs who make it this far usually ban or nerf Epic Spellcasting. Good point, though. At that level you shouldn't pop them on a party with no warning at all.

Edit:


Assuming that every caster will have a ton of immunities and epic spells that actually do anything useful as a "Baseline" is really odd. Like, I've set up what I think is a relatively normal wizard for an epic game and for a start I didn't even give her ES because more shots of ISC are more useful unless you're doing phenomenally abusive things with ES (in general, more metamagic on your DBFs is way better than hellballs or whatever it is you're doing). Her immunities are to... sleep effects, starvation and suffocation, and she has eighty-nine hit points at 25th level (so yes, she can absolutely kill herself twice over with her 12th-level spells). This is the kind of character I would normally expect to see from someone who hasn't spent years of their life buried in optimisation theory.

Like, Epic Spellcasting is borked on paper because you only need a DC of like 300 or something to destroy the observable universe! That's great and all, but she can hit DC... 58. She can't even cast hellball, much good may it do her if she actually could!

It's fairly easy to pump Spellcraft, admittingly. That does need some optimization though.

[Florian]

He's been following me from thread to thread, insisting that everyone from PF paladins to 3.5 core fighters are good, because they can do almost (but not quite) enough damage to kill things, if they roll straight 18s and are loaded up with arrows with all possible subtypebanes for the target in question, which is why high-level outsiders are no match for the wrath of a fighter, apparently. It's all very strange.

Communications is a funny thing, especially on the internet. I do get the feeling that you base your view on pure theorycraft which simply clashes with real table experience. I do read your posts carefully and what you write is often in stark contrast to what I´ve experienced and that I call out.

If you have a problem differentiating between efficiency at a task and raw power, say so.

[Jormengand]

Communications is a funny thing, especially on the internet. I do get the feeling that you base your view on pure theorycraft which simply clashes with real table experience. I do read your posts carefully and what you write is often in stark contrast to what I´ve experienced and that I call out.

In theory and in practice, it remains equally true that the build with which I was presented was categorically incapable of fighting a pit fiend. Hells, I even got someone to try to play the build against a pit fiend just to check that it wouldn't work (it didn't). And I definitely don't base my view on pure theorycraft, which is exactly why I've been challenging statements like "Everyone has protection from everything active on their person at all times" and "People actually do broken stuff with epic magic in real games" and "Fighters are good in practical optimisation".

(Incidentally, I should set a balor against a real 20th-level party and see how horribly it murders them. Should be a fun trial...)

[danielxcutter]

Okay, if you're going to say anything more like this at all, get out.

And I mean both of you.

[Florian]

In theory and in practice, it remains equally true that the build with which I was presented was categorically incapable of fighting a pit fiend. Hells, I even got someone to try to play the build against a pit fiend just to check that it wouldn't work (it didn't). And I definitely don't base my view on pure theorycraft, which is exactly why I've been challenging statements like "Everyone has protection from everything active on their person at all times" and "People actually do broken stuff with epic magic in real games" and "Fighters are good in practical optimisation".

(Incidentally, I should set a balor against a real 20th-level party and see how horribly it murders them. Should be a fun trial...)

Now we talk. It would be interesting to compare your players build with my players build and go from there.

[Lord Raziere]

Communications is a funny thing, especially on the internet. I do get the feeling that you base your view on pure theorycraft which simply clashes with real table experience. I do read your posts carefully and what you write is often in stark contrast to what I´ve experienced and that I call out.

Boi, your in Theorycraft Central. you ain't convincing anybody with what your talking 'bout. as far as all these people here are concerned, your archery trick is just this single thing a fighter can do that won't mean anything when a wizard starts revising the entire world by snapping their fingers in rapid succession. I know, I've argued with them, your not going to sway them.

though I suspect this warning is useless so....*pulls up a chair, eats popcorn*

[Jormengand]

Okay, if you're going to say anything more like this at all, get out.

And I mean both of you.

You know you can't actually tell posters to stop posting in a specific thread, or at the very least they don't have to listen to you, right?


Boi, your in Theorycraft Central. you ain't convincing anybody with what your talking 'bout. as far as all these people here are concerned, your archery trick is just this single thing a fighter can do that won't mean anything when a wizard starts revising the entire world by snapping their fingers in rapid succession. I know, I've argued with them, your not going to sway them.

though I suspect this warning is useless so....*pulls up a chair, eats popcorn*

It's less "This doesn't mean anything when wizard does..." and more "No, seriously, this doesn't do enough damage to kill it." Like, I'm talking about what actual people do in actual games, which is why I've said that about seven times this thread already.

[danielxcutter]

You know you can't actually tell posters to stop posting in a specific thread, or at the very least they don't have to listen to you, right?

Well, I'm not exactly going to report you guys, and I suppose I did overreact a bit, but I'm not happy about this. If you think this is going to go on for long, I suggest that you guys make your own thread.

Also @Lord Raziere, please don't start fanning the flames...

[Florian]

Boi, your in Theorycraft Central. you ain't convincing anybody with what your talking 'bout. as far as all these people here are concerned, your archery trick is just this single thing a fighter can do that won't mean anything when a wizard starts revising the entire world by snapping their fingers in rapid succession. I know, I've argued with them, your not going to sway them.

though I suspect this warning is useless so....*pulls up a chair, eats popcorn*

I prefer Quinoa as a vegan option and ruin it by using roasted cheese and jalapeños for dipping ;)

[Jormengand]

Well, I'm not exactly going to report you guys, and I suppose I did overreact a bit, but I'm not happy about this. If you think this is going to go on for long, I suggest that you guys make your own thread.

I'm not massively happy we're having this conversation either, but I know that if we don't, then whenever I post in another thread, or even if I don't (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?526237-DnD-3-5-So-about-that-10-Shuriken&p=22055866#post22055866), he'll show up and start with his evil-outsiders-can't-melt-steel-fighters thing (or something else bloody stupid), and at least in this thread it's vaguely relevant.

[Florian]

Well, I'm not exactly going to report you guys, and I suppose I did overreact a bit, but I'm not happy about this. If you think this is going to go on for long, I suggest that you guys make your own thread.

Also @Lord Raziere, please don't start fanning the flames...

Let´s simply get back to the point that an encounter is similar to a puzzle: You can solve it or you can brute force it.

[danielxcutter]

Let´s simply get back to the point that an encounter is similar to a puzzle: You can solve it or you can brute force it.

The key to a good encounter is making both options viable to the average party, I presume? Drowned are crappy because the puzzle solution is a quirky one that comes later than the minimum CR and the brute force option is nigh impossible?

[Jormengand]

The main problem with puzzle encounters in general is that you're not allowed to read the monster's stats, even if you pass the knowledge check. A player who doesn't know what a balor is, for example, won't have a clue that the way to fight it is "Never be in weapon range of it", and won't know that that range is 200 feet, and won't know to break out the holy cold iron weapons just to deal damage to it. It gets worse with things like Drowned, and worse still when people are struggling for things that will heal against a shape of fire when they can't read what the ability actually does.

[danielxcutter]

The main problem with puzzle encounters in general is that you're not allowed to read the monster's stats, even if you pass the knowledge check. A player who doesn't know what a balor is, for example, won't have a clue that the way to fight it is "Never be in weapon range of it", and won't know that that range is 200 feet, and won't know to break out the holy cold iron weapons just to deal damage to it. It gets worse with things like Drowned, and worse still when people are struggling for things that will heal against a shape of fire when they can't read what the ability actually does.

Hmm, good point. Yeah, this is why my DM says he only uses the Knowledge identification rules as guidelines.

[Malacandra]

****. Those. Things.

While not refuting the general truth of your assertion, Sky Masterson (Sorcerer, Elemental(Air)) sneers at will-o-wisps and their shenanigans. "Oh, you do 2d8 electric? That's nice. Have a magic missile. Now have some more. Natural invisibility? Too bad there's no SR to glitterdust, now siddown and shaddup".

More or less guarantees Sky will never meet even one of the little dears in the entire campaign, sadly. I guess every character's optimised against something. :smallcool:

[danielxcutter]

While not refuting the general truth of your assertion, Sky Masterson (Sorcerer, Elemental(Air)) sneers at will-o-wisps and their shenanigans. "Oh, you do 2d8 electric? That's nice. Have a magic missile. Now have some more. Natural invisibility? Too bad there's no SR to glitterdust, now siddown and shaddup".

More or less guarantees Sky will never meet even one of the little dears in the entire campaign, sadly. I guess every character's optimised against something. :smallcool:

Well, you do kinda have to know if the Will-O-Wisp's in the area of Glitterdust. And Magic Missile is a SR: Yes spell...

[Eldariel]

Assuming that every caster will have a ton of immunities and epic spells that actually do anything useful as a "Baseline" is really odd. Like, I've set up what I think is a relatively normal wizard for an epic game and for a start I didn't even give her ES because more shots of ISC are more useful unless you're doing phenomenally abusive things with ES (in general, more metamagic on your DBFs is way better than hellballs or whatever it is you're doing). Her immunities are to... sleep effects, starvation and suffocation, and she has eighty-nine hit points at 25th level (so yes, she can absolutely kill herself twice over with her 12th-level spells). This is the kind of character I would normally expect to see from someone who hasn't spent years of their life buried in optimisation theory.

Like, Epic Spellcasting is borked on paper because you only need a DC of like 300 or something to destroy the observable universe! That's great and all, but she can hit DC... 58. She can't even cast hellball, much good may it do her if she actually could!

Why would you cast either DBF or Hellball? Neither is worth the effort for the effect- Shapechange alone generally does better at no slot expenditure, and it's just too useful to not have on no matter who you are. Some strategies just are inefficient, some necessary. Well, Searing Spell DBF Time Stop spam might accomplish something, but it's horribly resource inefficient.

Similarly I think one needs a very good excuse to not cast Mind Blank once acquiring access. Who seriously wants to leave their mind open to intrusion by elder evils, fiends, gods or whatever. Simple Irresistible Dance is no-save effective death if you aren't immune. I don't see any good IC or OOC reasons to skimp on essential protections. The opportunity cost is too low not to use it.

Similarly the example epic spells pale in comparison to pre-epic but the seeds cam easily give you +50 Int, protection suppression or AMF-active immunities. Useful stuff. In general, the game is full of bad options but on epic, you generally need to use the good ones or die.

[lord_khaine]

Well, I'm not exactly going to report you guys, and I suppose I did overreact a bit, but I'm not happy about this. If you think this is going to go on for long, I suggest that you guys make your own thread.



Its not like there are anything to actually report them for anyway. The threat title is about unfairly powerful monsters. And so as long as they think the relative power level of a Balor vs an archer is relevant for that then its a fair subject for them to discus.


Similarly the example epic spells pale in comparison to pre-epic but the seeds cam easily give you +50 Int, protection suppression or AMF-active immunities. Useful stuff. In general, the game is full of bad options but on epic, you generally need to use the good ones or die.

The costs for developing or casting those epic spell seeds are kinda high though. And i suspect very rarely doable in actual gameplay where one might expect a GM to crack down on any blatant rule abuse.

[Jormengand]

Why would you cast either DBF or Hellball? Neither is worth the effort for the effect- Shapechange alone generally does better at no slot expenditure, and it's just too useful to not have on no matter who you are. Some strategies just are inefficient, some necessary. Well, Searing Spell DBF Time Stop spam might accomplish something, but it's horribly resource inefficient.

Similarly I think one needs a very good excuse to not cast Mind Blank once acquiring access. Who seriously wants to leave their mind open to intrusion by elder evils, fiends, gods or whatever. Simple Irresistible Dance is no-save effective death if you aren't immune. I don't see any good IC or OOC reasons to skimp on essential protections. The opportunity cost is too low not to use it.

Similarly the example epic spells pale in comparison to pre-epic but the seeds cam easily give you +50 Int, protection suppression or AMF-active immunities. Useful stuff. In general, the game is full of bad options but on epic, you generally need to use the good ones or die.

Remember that I'm mostly talking about the people who don't spend their free time nose-deep in D&D optimisation forums. If you're not trying to break the epic rules, they're more of a way to make a cool thematic spell than anything massively overpowered. People in the vast majority of games I've played think that evocation, enchantment and necromancy are real schools of magic and not just drug-addled hallucinations they had one night, they don't have protection from everything active 24/7, and they don't use permanencied teleportation circles as their sole method of transportation either.

[Cosi]

The ELH is weird. Some stuff is crazy overpowered, but then you get the Devastation Vermin, which are mindless melee brutes that automatically lose to flying archers, but are nominally CR 39 or higher.


Except unlike CON damage you can't act while drowning if I remember correctly.

Yeah, but you can't act when you've taken lethal CON damage either. The hypothetical CON-damage aura isn't exactly like the Drowned's aura (where you save a couple of times and nothing happens, then you fail and die), it's just a pile of CON damage every round. Both have the same effect -- incapacitating you in a few rounds -- and the same set of defenses -- pretty much only "high CON" and "stay out of range" -- but I don't think anyone thinks CON damage is outside the CR system.

[danielxcutter]

The ELH is weird. Some stuff is crazy overpowered, but then you get the Devastation Vermin, which are mindless melee brutes that automatically lose to flying archers, but are nominally CR 39 or higher.

Devestation Vermin aren't that tough CR-wise... though it'd suck if unleashed on a non-epic world.


Yeah, but you can't act when you've taken lethal CON damage either. The hypothetical CON-damage aura isn't exactly like the Drowned's aura (where you save a couple of times and nothing happens, then you fail and die), it's just a pile of CON damage every round. Both have the same effect -- incapacitating you in a few rounds -- and the same set of defenses -- pretty much only "high CON" and "stay out of range" -- but I don't think anyone thinks CON damage is outside the CR system.

Uh, no. When you fail the Con check for the aura - not Fort save - you start drowning and are essentially disabled, if not effectively dead. As for lethal Con damage, you just die. Which is why most causes of Con damage only deal small amounts. So you have to take lots of Con damaging effects to die from that.

[Pleh]

That damn crab (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a) just has the numbers, the reach and the invulnerabilities to make a low level party ill-equipped to do anything about it.

Immune to mind-affecting so no Color Spray/Sleep, 10ft reach and 40ft movement so hard to attack without getting hit back, insane damage in the hit > Improved Grab > Constrict and very high Hit and Grapple modifiers alongside decent AC and absurd HP.

At CR3 it's just way, way too strong, a nigh' certain "Kill 2 characters for food and walk away"-encounter for a level 1 party. The numbers are just too high. The Wizard/Wizard/Tripper Barb/Tripper Barb with Grease/Enlarge Person/Ray of Enfeeblement has a shot but even then, it has a lot of AC and HP. And that's about the best level 1 party for combat vs overpowrting encounters which this should not be by CR (CR6 is overpowering for a level 1 party of 4). Nor should such party line-up be expected.

You know... this evaluation of that darn crab seems to be assuming a neutral terrain. If the party can climb a coastal cliffside out of the crab's reach and if everyone brought sufficient ranged sidearms (shortbow, crossbow, or just a warlock), the crab doesn't have spiderclimb or even a climb race bonus. Getting out of its reach should work just fine.

As long as the DM isn't TRYING to kill party members, you should be able to get out of range and plink it to death (I know AC is a headache, but Eldritch Blast could make this trivial). If you end up in a fight with this thing at low level and your DM isn't willing to give you some kind of terrain advantage to exploit, that's kind of harsh.

Or is there something I'm missing here?

[Florian]

The key to a good encounter is making both options viable to the average party, I presume? Drowned are crappy because the puzzle solution is a quirky one that comes later than the minimum CR and the brute force option is nigh impossible?

As gm´s we all cheat in some way as we try to get the party on a learning curve, all the while trying to adjust CR by hand to fit the players actual abilities and keep the system stable and balanced.
An often overlooked part of the gentlemen´s agreement for a table is wanting the players to have some kind of reserve and be able to go full force when we screwed up with estimating an encounter.

[Eldariel]

You know... this evaluation of that darn crab seems to be assuming a neutral terrain. If the party can climb a coastal cliffside out of the crab's reach and if everyone brought sufficient ranged sidearms (shortbow, crossbow, or just a warlock), the crab doesn't have spiderclimb or even a climb race bonus. Getting out of its reach should work just fine.

As long as the DM isn't TRYING to kill party members, you should be able to get out of range and plink it to death (I know AC is a headache, but Eldritch Blast could make this trivial). If you end up in a fight with this thing at low level and your DM isn't willing to give you some kind of terrain advantage to exploit, that's kind of harsh.

Or is there something I'm missing here?
CR assumes neutral terrain. Facourable woukd leave it EL2 or so. And it's quite fast and has good reach so getting away with Climb is nontrivial. It can pick you up from 20ft.

Also it has so much HP that it can just walk away if you do escape. But it getting juat one turn and charging is generaly character death. Water cover too.

[Inevitability]

You know... this evaluation of that darn crab seems to be assuming a neutral terrain. If the party can climb a coastal cliffside out of the crab's reach and if everyone brought sufficient ranged sidearms (shortbow, crossbow, or just a warlock), the crab doesn't have spiderclimb or even a climb race bonus. Getting out of its reach should work just fine.

As long as the DM isn't TRYING to kill party members, you should be able to get out of range and plink it to death (I know AC is a headache, but Eldritch Blast could make this trivial). If you end up in a fight with this thing at low level and your DM isn't willing to give you some kind of terrain advantage to exploit, that's kind of harsh.

Or is there something I'm missing here?

The crab is faster and probably better at climbing than most PCs not prepared for either. Going up a cliff will not save you.

[Florian]

The crab is faster and probably better at climbing than most PCs not prepared for either. Going up a cliff will not save you.

*Sigh*

Don´t get hung up on the crab. It´s designed to work within the limits of the system and it´s more a reminder that these boundary rules don´t work if you stretch every point to the limit.
Do yourself the favor and grab a copy of Pathfinder Unchained and a Bestiary and look up the performance per level tables. That is informative, even for 3,5E players.

[Zanos]

I'm sorry for the events in your life that led you to be this way?
Heh.


-Everything Else-
Alright, you've created a pretty false dichotomy here. You've propped up on one side of it "Real Parties" at "Actual Tables" who are level 25 wizards with 89 hit points casting delayed blast fireball, and on the other side you've got someone who cast mind blank...and also is chain gating solars to abuse epic magic? Those things aren't the entirety of games. Here's my sheet. (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1104369) You might notice my wizard prepares spells from almost every school of magic, casts heart of water for freedom of movement, casts detect scrying to...detect scrying, and preps spells like solid fog, disintegrate, scorching ray, and dominate person

Yes I agree with you that I don't think that 900 DPR paladins are good depictions of an average game(actually maybe in PFS...), but I don't think 89 HP epic wizards are either. And to be honest I'm not sure how an 89 HP wizard would survive at level 20, let alone 25. Even WotC monsters are more than optimized enough to shred that. I'd have to guess you actually are stacking other protections, since your character hasn't been obliterated by a stray fireball.

[Malacandra]

Well, you do kinda have to know if the Will-O-Wisp's in the area of Glitterdust. And Magic Missile is a SR: Yes spell...

Which canonically (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/will-o-wisp/) does work on WoWs and has done ever since 1st Ed AD&D if not before. They don't normally start out invisible but have the option of turning their glow off if things aren't going well, so landing a Glitterdust early doors, before they've found out that 2-16 electrical doesn't even tickle and you can spam 300-odd points of Magic Missile. :smallbiggrin:

[Florian]

In theory and in practice, it remains equally true that the build with which I was presented was categorically incapable of fighting a pit fiend. Hells, I even got someone to try to play the build against a pit fiend just to check that it wouldn't work (it didn't). And I definitely don't base my view on pure theorycraft, which is exactly why I've been challenging statements like "Everyone has protection from everything active on their person at all times" and "People actually do broken stuff with epic magic in real games" and "Fighters are good in practical optimisation".

(Incidentally, I should set a balor against a real 20th-level party and see how horribly it murders them. Should be a fun trial...)

Can you do me the favor and actually post the build or at least a stub?

Edit: As you evaded the point the last time we got there, my guess is you can´t and you´re just a simple lier, perpetuating your "truths" without any meany to back it up.
Dollar for a dime that this will stay unanswered.

[Jormengand]

Heh.


Alright, you've created a pretty false dichotomy here. You've propped up on one side of it "Real Parties" at "Actual Tables" who are level 25 wizards with 89 hit points casting delayed blast fireball, and on the other side you've got someone who cast mind blank...and also is chain gating solars to abuse epic magic? Those things aren't the entirety of games. Here's my sheet. (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1104369) You might notice my wizard prepares spells from almost every school of magic, casts heart of water for freedom of movement, casts detect scrying to...detect scrying, and preps spells like solid fog, disintegrate, scorching ray, and dominate person

Yes I agree with you that I don't think that 900 DPR paladins are good depictions of an average game(actually maybe in PFS...), but I don't think 89 HP epic wizards are either. And to be honest I'm not sure how an 89 HP wizard would survive at level 20, let alone 25. Even WotC monsters are more than optimized enough to shred that. I'd have to guess you actually are stacking other protections, since your character hasn't been obliterated by a stray fireball.

Of course there are parties which are better optimised (the wizard's primary "Protection" was saves for days and a relatively sweet AC, incidentally; her hit points were low because that's how low wizard hit points are with 12 CON at that level without adding things which buff them). Hell, I'm playing an elven generalist spontaneous divination domain wizard in a real game right now, because I'm a forumite, and she still doesn't even know freedom of movement, let alone has ever cast it. She's not high-level, let alone epic, but let's see what she's immune to... dear god, it's sleep effects, starvation and suffocation! (Oh, and the touch attacks of ghouls). She has 37 hit points because, no, no guess, I'll tell you, it's because that's how many hit points a wizard with 12 CON has at level 9!

Now, she's not afraid to polymorph herself and her tiger into 12-headed cryohydras because of course she has that many caster level boosts, and she has divinations coming out of her ears... but she plain doesn't have the "Standard defences" of a wizard! Christ almighty, she knows fireball! She knows burning hands! Shocking grasp! She has three spells which actually do direct damage prepared as well (Caltrops, Furnace Within and Arcane Maul, as it happens). Oh dear lords of optimisation, I have SINNED!

Except that no-one I've actually met really plays games where the only damaging spells anyone uses are Power Word Pain (because Wizards made a mistake that makes it very low level) and Chill Touch (becuase Wizards made a mistake which makes it about CL times as powerful as it should be), where enchantment is a funny joke, illusion is a funnier joke, and divination is a joke when it's targeted at a creature and ultimately powerful when it's not. I have never played, seen or smelt a real character who actually carries fifteen buffs around with them at all times (most people I've played with have probably never h.eard of the Heart of X spells, let alone cast one), and even on the forum I've not seen many people play massively optimised characters.

Hey, let's look at the other characters in that game. Let's look at the goddamn thrallherd, he must be optimised right? Immunities? Nothing. Hit points? 43, because that's how many he gets from his 12 constitution, again. One of his powers is Energy Bolt.

Sorcerer. Immunities. He actually has Heart of Earth and Water but not the other two. Apart from that, he has immunity to... electrical attacks that deal 10 or less damage? He has 46 hit points, because he has 14 Con instead of 12. The multiclass ToB mess has 46 hit points and his only immunity is to, and I'm not making this up, difficult terrain. The straight-up warblade fares slightly better with his 18 CON giving him 104 hit points, and is immune to... nonmagical darkness? No, he's got nothing in the way of immunities.

This is a game on these forums. Standard optimisation will always be less than on these forums. And I'm not seeing FoM as a standard thing that people have once they have access to it. I'm not seeing any immunities, really. And if someone rolled well, they could kill all but one of these characters. With what, you ask?

A. Stray. Fireball.


Can you do me the favor and actually post the build or at least a stub?

Edit: As you evaded the point the last time we got there, my guess is you can´t and you´re just a simple lier, perpetuating your "truths" without any meany to back it up.
Dollar for a dime that this will stay unanswered.

You mean the build we spent several pages of another thread arguing about already?

No. I already discussed to death why the build doesn't work. I wrote at least a thousand words explaining it to you. You can guess all you like, but I've already explained the exact particulars of why fighters don't work the way you think they do.

[Svata]

Um. At that level why don't you have something. Anything. Anything at all that boosts your CON score? Just so a stiff breeze doesn't kill you? Amulet of Health +6 is 36k gold. That's a pittance. That's just more than half of a percent of your WBL.

[Zaydos]

The key to a good encounter is making both options viable to the average party, I presume? Drowned are crappy because the puzzle solution is a quirky one that comes later than the minimum CR and the brute force option is nigh impossible?

The counter to a drowned is a 3rd level spell (the aura specifically is 'treated for the purposes of breathing as being beneath the water'). So comes online at level 5. It's not that the counter is higher level, it's that it's niche, and if it's not cast before the fight it still might be too late (~40% chance to take out the cleric round 1) and that they're hit points and fast healing makes them a tank without their aura.

They're supposed to be like basilisks, but where basilisk there's not really an answer to their petrifying gaze till level 11 (they're CR 5) and yet they work fine, the drowned has stats like making a basilisk CR 3 and giving it Ability Focus (Gaze) (a CR 3 basilisk is a tpk, especially with a CR 15 gaze). With drowned the brute force option is nigh impossible, and either they're boring (you have water breathing cast because you're adventuring in a place where you need it, which is to be fair the same places they're liable to show up) or you're dead (because you don't have it because why would you need it).

[Cosi]

Devestation Vermin aren't that tough CR-wise... though it'd suck if unleashed on a non-epic world.

I agree, my point was that there's a huge swing between the high end of ELH stuff and things like then Devastation Vermin that are just "something that already stopped being a threat twenty levels ago, but bigger and louder". Sorry if that wasn't clear.


Uh, no. When you fail the Con check for the aura - not Fort save - you start drowning and are essentially disabled, if not effectively dead. As for lethal Con damage, you just die. Which is why most causes of Con damage only deal small amounts. So you have to take lots of Con damaging effects to die from that.

Drowned:

Round One: Make Save
Round Two: Make Save
Round Three: Fail Save, drowning, can't act anymore.

CON Damage Aura:

Round One: Take 2d6 CON damage.
Round Two: Take 2d6 CON damage.
Round Three: Take 2d6 CON damage, total CON damage exceeds score, can't act anymore.

In both cases, you get a few rounds of action, then you stop being able to act. The only defenses against either are immunity, staying out of range, and having a really big CON score.

[ColorBlindNinja]

SNIP

Varying optimization levels do make judging the strength of monsters somewhat difficult.

I will also add that epic spellcasting is broken both ways.

If you abuse mitigation to its limits, you can do virtually anything. Otherwise, it's nigh useless.

[Florian]

You mean the build we spent several pages of another thread arguing about already?

No. I already discussed to death why the build doesn't work. I wrote at least a thousand words explaining it to you. You can guess all you like, but I've already explained the exact particulars of why fighters don't work the way you think they do.

Either you dream or I´m drunk. Being in the beer-business the later is a common day to day occurrence for me, so I rule that out. We argued about a Mythic Barbarian for which I didn't provide full stats, as it was equipped and outfitted according to a very specific campaign and I don´t see the point in sharing and comparing under that circumstances. You did not provide anything, neither a build nor a way to go from there.

I can provide that on the stipulation that you do your research on the rules, but can you?