Eldritch Jerk: Eldritch Strike might be stronger than we think...

[TheUser]

The interpretation my DM has opted for is that "disadvantage on the next saving throw
it makes against a spell you cast before the end of your next turn" also includes spells you've cast prior (since that's technically "before")

Enter Grease, Blindness/Deafness, Gust of Wind and Bestow Curse.

Hold Person might allow for auto crits but grease/blindness isn't limited to humanoids and doesn't require concentration!

Essentially each new save is undercut by eldritch strike; if the target got up and fled it wouldn't know where to go or would lose half of its movement making it almost impossible to escape.

Bestow Curse is where things get out of hand....
every turn they are making a wisdom save or doing...NOTHING with their action.... As long as you are willing to action surge on the same turn you cast the spell you've essentially locked someone down....

with all of this in mind, what weapons/feats would you start building around your EK?

(EDIT: Slow also seems like it has a lot of potential for abuse)

[JeffreyGator]

I read RAI for "next spell you cast before the end of your next turn" as the next spell you cast between now and the end of the next turn.

However, even reading with the technical before, the victim will get at least one chances not at disadvantage.

Case 1 Eldritch Strike > Action Surge > Debilitating spell (victim rolls at disadvantage)
Victim rolls normally once at end of its turn
If failed then you enter the loop eldritch strikes > victim rolls at disadvantage until victim dies.

This won't be very long since the victim is being attacked 2-5 times per round by high level fighter without a great chance of missing and is probably rolling a difficult save.

Case 2 without Action Surge
Victim attacks or does something to prevent casting a spell by the EK.
If that failed EK casts a spell which is rolled at disadvantage.
Victim rolls again at end of the round normally.
If failed then enter the loop until dead.

Case 3 pre-cast spell > AS
EK casts, victim rolls normally to save, EK AS to eldritch strike.
Enter loop.

Granted this is very likely the most powerful level 10 Fighter path ability compared to additional fighting style or d10 maneuver dice.

[TheUser]

I read RAI for "next spell you cast before the end of your next turn" as the next spell you cast between now and the end of the next turn.

However, even reading with the technical before, the victim will get at least one chances not at disadvantage.

Case 1 Eldritch Strike > Action Surge > Debilitating spell (victim rolls at disadvantage)
Victim rolls normally once at end of its turn
If failed then you enter the loop eldritch strikes > victim rolls at disadvantage until victim dies.

This won't be very long since the victim is being attacked 2-5 times per round by high level fighter without a great chance of missing and is probably rolling a difficult save.

Case 2 without Action Surge
Victim attacks or does something to prevent casting a spell by the EK.
If that failed EK casts a spell which is rolled at disadvantage.
Victim rolls again at end of the round normally.
If failed then enter the loop until dead.

Case 3 pre-cast spell > AS
EK casts, victim rolls normally to save, EK AS to eldritch strike.
Enter loop.

Granted this is very likely the most powerful level 10 Fighter path ability compared to additional fighting style or d10 maneuver dice.

Case 4 you attack and hit, next round cast and action surge...

[JeffreyGator]

Case 4 you attack and hit, next round cast and action surge...

That was the case I was missing. With this combination then the victim never gets a normal save.
I also left out the case where you are doing extra stuff because you are hasted (ideally by a friend). Cast and then attack. Only if you miss the blinded/held/cursed victim do you need to blow your Action Surge to hit a bunch more.

But you have used one of your higher level spell slots and the 1/short rest combo to do it.

This could make the character well optimized for a duel. I just don't think most combats are going to be duels. It is most often group on group. Any duel situation can often give advantage to whomever goes first.

To your original question, I would think strongly about sentinel since one way out is for the victim to disengage and not play your game - very few enemies want to be in melee with the high level fighter. Also the first hit may have been an opportunity weapon on their action making this quicker.

I would also consider warcaster so that the victim's buddies don't break your concentration.

To still have ASIs I would probably be sword and board. There are pretty nice advantages of having the blind/cursed/held person 10' from you and so my second choice would be a polearm but then I really want polearm master as well. Even with the bonus ASI @6th you are still looking at only 4 ASI (5 if vhuman) by 12th feats.

Vhuman 16 str 14 con 16 int +sentinel dueling
4th warcaster
6th +2 str
8th +2 int
12th +2 str

[Mochan]

I think it's strong with Bestow Curse, but that goes online Level 10.

Or you could go Warlock, Hex the target for Dex or Wisdom, another caster can lock him down Grease, Curse, Hokd Person or whatever.

It's a great ability, but it's Level 10 it should be strong.

[TheUser]

I think it's strong with Bestow Curse, but that goes online Level 10.

Or you could go Warlock, Hex the target for Dex or Wisdom, another caster can lock him down Grease, Curse, Hokd Person or whatever.

It's a great ability, but it's Level 10 it should be strong.

Bestow curse would be level 14 actually.

[Vaz]

I think it's strong with Bestow Curse, but that goes online Level 10.

Or you could go Warlock, Hex the target for Dex or Wisdom, another caster can lock him down Grease, Curse, Hokd Person or whatever.

It's a great ability, but it's Level 10 it should be strong.

What does Hexing them do? Strength to resist a shove, sure.

[alchahest]

you get more attacks per turn than any other class as a fighter, Hex lets you add a D6 to each one that hits! Reducing Wisdom gives your party rogue better odds of staying hidden, cursing strength (as usually happens in our games) makes grappling and shoving the target way better

[Vaz]

you get more attacks per turn than any other class as a fighter, Hex lets you add a D6 to each one that hits! Reducing Wisdom gives your party rogue better odds of staying hidden, cursing strength (as usually happens in our games) makes grappling and shoving the target way better

Ye, was just confused at why Dex/Wis. Str definitely. We have a Hexing Shield Master Hexblade/Paladin who does that to just ridiculous effect.

[Crusher]

Seems like the biggest issue here isn't so much Eldritch Blade as that Bestow Curse is arguably OP.

[Specter]

If that's really your DM's interpretation, you should dump Grease and get ahold of Tasha's. Prone AND incapacitated is much nicer.

[TheUser]

If that's really your DM's interpretation, you should dump Grease and get ahold of Tasha's. Prone AND incapacitated is much nicer.

I am unsure if I want to do Str or Dex atm... Tashya's does seem strong but they get to save at advantage with every hit (so just regular saves every hit) hard to say.

[Specter]

I am unsure if I want to do Str or Dex atm... Tashya's does seem strong but they get to save at advantage with every hit (so just regular saves every hit) hard to say.

Yeah, but tell your friends to ignore the laughing man. If you're facing two enemies, you've just split the opposition in half.

[Foxhound438]

Afb, but doesn't it say the *next* spell you cast before(...)? I hate to argue semantics, but for me that means that the spell is cast after the attack. I don't think making it apply to existing spells would be op, I just don't think it does raw.

[Saggo]

Afb, but doesn't it say the *next* spell you cast before(...)? I hate to argue semantics, but for me that means that the spell is cast after the attack. I don't think making it apply to existing spells would be op, I just don't think it does raw.

"When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, that
creature has disadvantage on the next saving throw
it makes against a spell you cast before the end of
your next turn."

[Lombra]

English is such a beautiful language. The verb "to cast" is conjugated in the same way both in the present indicative and the preterite indicative.
No raw answer due to poor wording \o/
But I like how you read it. ("to read"... another one of those funny verbs...)

[Corran]

Dex based plays better with grease, obviously, but I would probably aim for an archer EK (despite the lack of synergy with grease). Makes it easier to focus fire where you must, if you plan on using AoE's like grease/ confusion/ slow/ etc.

Besides, an archer would have less need for CON, and that will allow you to better focus on increasing your attack stat (DEX) and your INT, both of which are important if you want to make the best use out of eldritch strike.
Maybe I would avoid sharpshooter alltogether, and aim for a more control-focused role, though it's hard to say at this point for sure (but the -5 penalty to hit really doesn't play all that well with how we would like to use ES; it does work well if you focus this strategy against a single opponent though, as having lots of attacks could counteract the -5 penalty to hit, while you could also probably put the damage boost to some good use). Perhaps I would still take it for better range and to ignore cover though, though probably after maxing dex and int (or @lvl1 if vhuman? not sure).

Hmmm, both bestow curse and slow are spells I would like to have with such a build, and for that reason alone I would consider taking levels in a fullcaster class (most likely wizard, though I would not discount sorcerer as careful and quicken could both play well with such a build, though in that case we have to dump int and go with a strong charisma, and that would mean that for quite a LOT of levels the build would underperform seriously; perhaps a though for a high level game). So, yeah, most likely wizard. That would delay our 3rd level spells for a few levels (2-3, probably 3, as a 3rd attack is quite a useful feature to have, both generally and specifically due to the tactics we want to employ with this build), but personally I would make that sacrifice (as long as I dont know beforehand that the campaign ends at a certain level that would render this choice moot). We can really profit from the more and higher level slots, either by upcasting spells (like hold person, bestow curse -to stack it with a concentration effect, blindness, etc), or simply by having more slots to spam non-concentration spells (like blindness). Besides, you will get to broaden your spell selection which is a good thing by itself (for example, getting access to haste by not spending your only 13 lvl EK pick on it is very helpfull, as it will allow you to change from a support to a dpr role whenever you need to, without having to sacrifice spells like slow or bestow curse, for when you will want to play your ES support role -or you can combine it, by having haste on and still taking a turn to cast a bestow curse V or a blindness -especially the last one can play really well with your many attacks, 4 with haste, and with the sharpshooter feat).

So... I would probably aim for sth like this:

Vhuman (sharpshooter)
Fighter (EK) 11/ Wizard (Diviner) 7/ (plus 2 more levels after that break point) -progression as it shows.
ASIs: +2 DEX, +2 DEX, +2 INT, +2 INT (you can grab two late ASIs.feats, @lvl's 19&20, if you finish your build with a 12/8 split, though I would probably go as 11/9 and nab only one extra ASI just to get 5th level spells).
Spells (mostly what you mentioned): Bindness/deafness, slow, bestow curse, confusion, hold person (possibly upcast); and if we end up getting 5th level spells, then hold monster is a good addition too (and we will have the slots to upcast it if necessary).

ps: The diviner levels help you make an enemy fail its save and you can thus bring them into the loop more easily.

[TheUser]

I'm going strength EK to 11 with GWF and Half-Orc power crits.

My group has a rogue atm so hold person will be a death sentence if played well.

As for Wizard I really hate portent; the rolls are unreliable per day and it gets quashed by legendary saves.

I know I will be making it to level 16 tops so it's probably going to be Invoker for sculpt spells since it's such a tremendous game changer and closes up the AoE

[Hudsonian]

English is such a beautiful language. The verb "to cast" is conjugated in the same way both in the present indicative and the preterite indicative.
No raw answer due to poor wording \o/
But I like how you read it. ("to read"... another one of those funny verbs...)

Is none going to mention the mastery of grammatical nomenclature this post represents? Even my browsers spell check is all, "That's not a word, you misspelled something." but this guy casually tosses it out there on a random forum post. I also find the English language intriguing but find that the lack of precision sometimes leads me to be frustrated instead of being appreciative of its complexity.

[Vaz]

Probably not.