Awakened Undead - Response in Sharn

[TallerSpine]

The campaign is gestalt, so BBEGs are also gestalt. I chose a dread necromancer/cleric of vol as one BBEG to oppose the party. She came to Sharn and decided to animate a bunch of dead in Sharn's City of the Dead. She brought with her a schema of Awaken Undead. She was able to animate a veritable army of undead (in a desecration zone, she can animate and control around 400 HD of undead) and overwhelmed the single Silver Flame warden who watches the district to ensure that does not happen (I made her a Primordial Giant and gave her Animate Dead as a SLA and figured that would increase her CR by one).

Now, a mass of dead relatives of noble families floods into Sharn demanding to return to their old lives (and demanding their wealth be returned to them, as they are clearly not dead). How should the city react? I want this to be a long term problem, as the party is still only second level, and not quite ready to deal with the threat directly. Obviously, they have seen Karnathi soldiers returned from death as Karnathi zombies and skeletons which possess intelligence and knowledge of their old lives, but this would be the first time Sharn has experienced it directly. How would they react?

All ideas welcome!

[Kol Korran]

Um... two important notes:
1- Karrnathi skeleton and zombies aren't their old selves, just undead... Yes, they may have fragments of their old habits/ persona/ memories, but on the whole, they are different entities... (Mechanically for example, they all change alignment, regardless of the old alignment). These undead use the bodies of old undead, and possibly remains of the life that inhabited those bodies, but they are... something different...

2- I don't think Awaken Undead returns the old memories. Even the text seems to hint to that (At least to me)- They don't get any previous skills or feats, which are parts of a person's memories and development, no? They but regain combat related proficiencies, and extraordinary abilities... So again, I think they my be something... quite different.

Yeah, you could play it differently, but then I suggest either a new spell/ eldritch machine/ plot device...

As to a response for about 400 new undead in the midst of Sharn? The city would crush them. Quick and simple. There are enough people from the old war who still hate the undead (Due to the war, priests of the sovereign host have no love for them as well, not to mention... just normal people, who don't like bodies walking around) Sharn is massive, has a lot of powerful entities in it, including magic users, dragonmakred inventors, old war veterans, just to name a few... so taking down 400 undead won't be much of a problem...

If this starts somewhere else... Say... New Cyre? Vathirond? Well, that is a whole different story...

If you want an undead uprising in Sharn, I suggest to either make it very secret, or perhaps as you intended- make it seem that the undead aren't really undead, but perhaps something... different, who may truly have the old person inside them. Perhaps a mix between undead and undying? Hmmmm...

[Zanos]

I agree with Kol, awakened undead are not the same person as the corpse they were created from, and you can even awaken undead that were never sentient.

Of course you could still have them do this, as normal people wouldn't necessarily be aware of that fact, and it would cause some arguments between people with spellcraft or knowledge in arcana or religion.

[TallerSpine]

Um... two important notes:
1- Karrnathi skeleton and zombies aren't their old selves, just undead... Yes, they may have fragments of their old habits/ persona/ memories, but on the whole, they are different entities... (Mechanically for example, they all change alignment, regardless of the old alignment). These undead use the bodies of old undead, and possibly remains of the life that inhabited those bodies, but they are... something different...

2- I don't think Awaken Undead returns the old memories. Even the text seems to hint to that (At least to me)- They don't get any previous skills or feats, which are parts of a person's memories and development, no? They but regain combat related proficiencies, and extraordinary abilities... So again, I think they my be something... quite different.

Yeah, you could play it differently, but then I suggest either a new spell/ eldritch machine/ plot device...

As to a response for about 400 new undead in the midst of Sharn? The city would crush them. Quick and simple. There are enough people from the old war who still hate the undead (Due to the war, priests of the sovereign host have no love for them as well, not to mention... just normal people, who don't like bodies walking around) Sharn is massive, has a lot of powerful entities in it, including magic users, dragonmakred inventors, old war veterans, just to name a few... so taking down 400 undead won't be much of a problem...

If this starts somewhere else... Say... New Cyre? Vathirond? Well, that is a whole different story...

If you want an undead uprising in Sharn, I suggest to either make it very secret, or perhaps as you intended- make it seem that the undead aren't really undead, but perhaps something... different, who may truly have the old person inside them. Perhaps a mix between undead and undying? Hmmmm...

The idea of Karrnathi undead is that they return to their families and tell them the wonders of the Blood of Vol. It is eluded to in Faiths of Eberron that people want to believe their loved ones are returning to them, so even though they may not be exactly the same, their families accept them. It was expressly described as part of how the faith spread so quickly across Karrnath. People want to believe their loved ones are returning to them.

Additionally, these would be the loved ones of the noble families of Sharn. Some would be ancient, of course, but there are enough more recent deaths among the noble families to make this a good plot point. Do you really think the noble families would ALLOW the city to crush the their loved ones? If even a few of the noble families bought into the idea that their loved ones may still be in these undead husks, it would be enough to start a debate. So, while I appreciate the advice, I completely and wholeheartedly disagree that the city would crush them. There are certainly benefits to having them start from "somewhere else" or with a different mechanic. But I think the advantages of having them be relatives of the noble families far outweighs any benefits of having it start somewhere else. They are not violent. They are not attacking anyone. They are loved ones returning home.

There are three different versions of Awaken Undead (Savage Species - Feb 2003, Libris Mortis - Oct 2004, and the Spell Compendium - Dec 2005). The Spell Compendium version is the newest and explicitly states they gain back their feats and skills. See this thread here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?500152-Fixing-awaken-undead-3-5

So, Awaken Undead would do exactly what I want it to do.

Also, the primordial giant is a half-giant half-elf, showing that Vol has machinations in Xen'Drik, as well, trying to pull her family together. Both this DN and Vol have shared lineage from before the House of Vol was the House of Vol. This is her attempt to gain influence in Sharn. Even if it is doomed to fail, it will plant the idea in the heads of some people that maybe their loved ones can return to them. It also may give some insight on how the Mark of Death came to be (if there was mixing of bloodlines with giants, perhaps the trace lineage from the giant bloodline that possessed Animate Dead (and possibly other necromantic spells) as a SLA is what brought about the Mark of Death in the first place.

There are plenty of reasons why I want this to be a plot point. If the city would crush them, no problem. But, what would happen after that? The war veterans do not venture into the City of the Death. Gath sees to that. (Gath is, according to the City of Sharn, a powerful lich cleric of the Keeper who protects and mentors aspiring necromancers who show promise). And the ability for this DN to send wave after wave of 400 undead, sure they could crush each wave, but what do they do for the next wave, and the one after that?

[Gildedragon]

Noble families would be the ones that would crush the undead the hardest.
ESPECIALLY if the undead demanded their stuff back.
Inheritances, especially big ones, are the source of family drama, strife and machinations.
Also: you really can't underestimate the scorn towards the Karnathi and the disdain for undead as a result from that.

Now if some heads of family "left on a trip" to secure their immortality via undeath and used stuff (magic) to hide that... that is something rich prominent-family patriarchs and matriarchs would do.

Sharn reaction: Shuts the gates, contacts the capital. Sets itself up for siege. Mass production of Holy Water. Probably Aundair hears of this... a platoon of paladins would probably start towards Sharn. It might trigger LWII as Breland might assume it is a Karnathi attack

So you reckon that awaken undead pulls the spirit from doluruh?

[TallerSpine]

So you reckon that awaken undead pulls the spirit from doluruh?

Certainly not. I reckon that it is a perverse arcane (or divine) violation that mimics their memories.

[Gildedragon]

Also note that Gath seems fond of the Warden. Probably is not very keen on someone disrupting his cat and mouse with her... liches do prize their toys heartily, boredom is the great lich killer

Wouldn't be surprised if he was the one who let the silver flame know of the interloper

[TallerSpine]

Also note that Gath seems fond of the Warden. Probably is not very keen on someone disrupting his cat and mouse with her... liches do prize their toys heartily, boredom is the great lich killer

Wouldn't be surprised if he was the one who let the silver flame know of the interloper

Also note that it says that as long as the warden is not removed, he is perfectly happy with anything the DN wants to do. So, the warden may be stopping a few of the 400, but certainly not all of them. Gath probably finds it hilarious that the warden is failing so miserably to do her job, and lavishes the DN with praises.

[TallerSpine]

Noble families would be the ones that would crush the undead the hardest.
ESPECIALLY if the undead demanded their stuff back.
Inheritances, especially big ones, are the source of family drama, strife and machinations.

True, but noble families are also the biggest on putting on shows. Some of the families would make a show that these are undead husks. The families that have connections to Karrnath may not want to do that. Perhaps they would embrace their relatives and plot secretly to have them removed. I expect reactions would run the gamut.


Also: you really can't underestimate the scorn towards the Karnathi and the disdain for undead as a result from that.

If this were Aundair or Thrane, certainly. Because of the buffer nations between Karrnath and Breland, Breland lost far fewer men to Karrnathi undead than did their neighbors. Here is what another DM has for the religion in Sharn:


The Blood of Vol in Sharn

The Blood of Vol is a religion that reveres the undead. In Breland—and even in much of Karrn— people associate the Blood of Vol with mad necromancers and armies of the dead. But as with the Church of the Silver Flame or the Sovereign Host, the majority of the people who worship the Blood of Vol are commoners—hardworking peasants and crafters who simply wish to be left alone to practice the faith of their fathers. The vampire lords and wizards of the Blood of Vol may seek to spread chaos across the world or to restore the Lost Mark, but the typical parishioner simply wants to do his duty, give blood on the holy days, and pray for the spirits of his ancestors who have been taken from this world.
The followers of Vol in Sharn know little about the true nature of the religion. They also believe in the existence of the gods of the Sovereign Host—and despise them. The core belief of the Sharn sect is that death is the greatest evil of all. There is no glorious afterlife, no rebirth; death is oblivion at best, and eternal torment for a soul taken by the Keeper. The gods cursed the world with mortality, but Vol has found a way to escape this curse. Fearing the power of Vol, the gods fled to the heavens, and today they do not walk the world. To the followers of Vol, the sentient undead are champions in the battle against death. The faithful believe that in time, the vampire lords will take the battle to the heavens and destroy the gods, and that when this is done there will be no more death. The regular giving of blood is a form of reverse communion—a spiritual sacrifice, showing the willingness of the community to support their champions and to give their lives to overcome death. As for mindless undead, the soul is all that matters to the followers of Vol and there is no taboo against raising the dead as zombies or skeletons; on the contrary, it allows those unjustly taken from the community to still serve it in some way.
While they believe in the righteousness of their cause, followers of Vol know better than to discuss their faith with outsiders, even with fellow Karrns. The vile gods have enslaved the world, and the followers of Vol know that most people will not listen to them. Some of the followers of Vol are actually of good alignment; these people are deeply opposed to violence, and refuse to participate in the killing of an innocent. Others believe that there are no innocents, and that those who choose to serve and believe in the gods of death deserve nothing better. It is these people who are usually secretly recruited to serve in the Order of the Emerald Claw.
The congregation of the hidden temple in the Graywall district are primarily peaceful followers of Vol. They provide shelter and passive assistance to undead or members of the Emerald Claw, but they themselves are not killers or necessarily evil—no more or less so than the inhabitants of any other district of Sharn.

So, I believe there would be a mixed reaction to the undead returning. As more and more relatives keep returning, Sharn may try to shut the gates, but does anyone really think that would keep the undead out? And how many lives might be lost in the process? Perhaps slain war veterans are sent to the DN through secret means and the recently deceased start returning. This could spiral out of control, and that alone would be cause for debate. How did this many undead get in the city all at once? How can they stop it? Do they want a new war with Karrnath? All of these questions would be at odds with each other. Some would demand that the capital send forces to help Sharn. But, perhaps a few would demand that their loved ones be protected by the capital.

[TallerSpine]

Oh, even better! Over the course of a couple of weeks or months, this DN could have literally thousands of awakened undead in the City of the Dead. Most of them would not be commanded by her (she would be releasing her control over them). But, I imagine that intelligent undead would have fairly positive feelings towards the one who brought them back, gave them sentience, then released them from service. If I give her the Undead Leadership feat, she can start a new district in the City of the Dead.

Perhaps the smartest of the awakened undead (those with 10 intelligence) want desperately to return to their old lives. Perhaps they decide to do so in secret. They form into a sizable community (a la the undead city from Planescape: Torment). If thousands returned to the city all at once, that would overwhelm the city entirely. So, perhaps the party catches wind of it from contacts within the Temple of the Silver Flame. The invasion has not happened yet, but they only have a few months to prepare. They try desperately to gain assistance, but between those who refuse to believe the rumors and those who are itching for a war with Karrnath to begin again, no one is willing to do anything. So, it is up to the party. They have to find the undead who have made their way into Sharn (probably the Greywall district), living in secret trying to plot ways to regain their lost wealth from their families. They are seeking ways to disguise their undeath and return to their families as "long lost relatives" perhaps. Maybe they do not even know that they are not who they used to be. Perhaps they wholeheartedly believe they are still themselves, and they do not realize they now lack the cunning they once possessed in life.

[TallerSpine]

Hmm, I've been thinking more about what Kol Korran and Zanos have said. I forgot that Awaken Undead does not affect Charisma. Skeletons and Zombies still have charisma of just 1. Awaken Undead gives them intelligence, but not personality. So, perhaps a different mechanic would be beneficial. Any suggestions? The idea I am going for is something akin to TV show "The Returned".

[Zanos]

I would say the conflict still works. While they may not be their old selves, you could definitely argue for and against the mortality of destroying newly "born" sentient life occupying undead bodies.

[CozJa]

Oh, even better! Over the course of a couple of weeks or months, this DN could have literally thousands of awakened undead in the City of the Dead. Most of them would not be commanded by her (she would be releasing her control over them). But, I imagine that intelligent undead would have fairly positive feelings towards the one who brought them back, gave them sentience, then released them from service. If I give her the Undead Leadership feat, she can start a new district in the City of the Dead.

Perhaps the smartest of the awakened undead (those with 10 intelligence) want desperately to return to their old lives. Perhaps they decide to do so in secret. They form into a sizable community (a la the undead city from Planescape: Torment). If thousands returned to the city all at once, that would overwhelm the city entirely. So, perhaps the party catches wind of it from contacts within the Temple of the Silver Flame. The invasion has not happened yet, but they only have a few months to prepare. They try desperately to gain assistance, but between those who refuse to believe the rumors and those who are itching for a war with Karrnath to begin again, no one is willing to do anything. So, it is up to the party. They have to find the undead who have made their way into Sharn (probably the Greywall district), living in secret trying to plot ways to regain their lost wealth from their families. They are seeking ways to disguise their undeath and return to their families as "long lost relatives" perhaps. Maybe they do not even know that they are not who they used to be. Perhaps they wholeheartedly believe they are still themselves, and they do not realize they now lack the cunning they once possessed in life.

I believe that's a really more clever way to put it! I'm liking it a lot!

Anyway, some considerations:

1) regarding noble families and awakened undeads, I concur with what has been said until now: either the undead are not enough, and they are destroyed because nobody really wants a cult of undead rising in power into Sharn, especially the noble families, or they are too many, and they are again a problem that must be eradicated. I believe you are underestimating how much people in power are interested in keeping their power; take the war of the Mark for example, when all the aberrant dragonmarked were slain: many of them were the offspring of people of the very houses that attacked them in the first place.
Also, another thing to remember is that, according to the law of Galifar, undeads, intelligent or not, are objects and non persons, and they are property of whoever raise them (according they have been raised with permission, and I doubt it :smallwink: ). Even if some of the undeads were accepted by familiars, every Random McPasserby would be in his perfect right to slay them on sight.

Now, one thing that may be of your interest, is the fact that to justify a mass-destruction, even if for a good reason, I'm pretty sure the city council would have to deliberate, and if your Dread Necromancer is able to have some ally in the council, it may be possible to forestall the situation for a while (enlarging the undead army).

2) You are right on the fact that the faith in Vol spread fast into Karrnath even because of this desire to see their loved ones back, but you should consider two things: first, it was one of many concurrent reasons, second, it was during wartime. Now that the continent is at peace, especially in a progressive place like Breland (in contrast with a more conservative country like Karrn) I don't know how much this sentiment would help.

Another interesting thing to consider is, exactly how your Dread Necromancer align herself with the blood of Vol? From the description, I imagine she consider herself a servant of Vol. That means Kaius III (and his embassy in Sharn) would probably intervene against her, given the occasion.

3) As for spells, another one that can be interesting for you is Animate Dread Warrior, especially if you can find a way to make it a Spell-Like Ability, ignoring the XP cost. That would be useful to awaken people recently dead.

Way I see it, your idea of them slowly building up a district is a very interesting one. You could play with some of them trying to come back to their original lifes, spreading rumors but not enought to really understand what's going on; and you may even shuffle around the political side of things: those of the Karrnathian embassy loyal to the King are worried about what's happening and may turn out to be the best allies (and the less expected) for the PCs, while maybe some members of the Brelish parlament, generals that want the war to start again, or important people adverse to the status quo (and to King Boranel) may work in the shadows to help the Dread Necromancer.

Another interesting thing to consider, is the fact that higher Sharn is a manifest zone to Syrania. Maybe upsetting the balance of life and death that much may end up creating some manifest zone of Dolurrh that interferes with Syrania in unexpected and perilous ways (do not forget that Dolurrh is a plane with the High Gravity trait, and many high towers in Sharn exist basically only thanks to Syrania light Gravity).

I'm curious to see what you will come up with!

[Coidzor]

Well, obviously they're not going to get any wealth or property through legal channels, and if they try to take control of Sharn by force, Sharn is going to hit back. 400 1-HD Skeletons, even if a few of them are recently dead individuals who had intimate knowledge of the city's layout and defenses, are not going to take over more than a neighbourhood or two. In the case that they somehow succeeded, Breland would flip its **** and smack that down.

A phalanx of undead, even walking, talking ones, is most likely going to result in scrambling the garrison, calling up the militia to defend the city, blockades overseen by the cityguard, and aerial bombardment if possible. It would take quite the diplomacy check to avert quite the incident

Individual undead or small groups of them are going to likely be taken out by the local adventurer and cleric population, angry mobs, and the ordinary city guard which will mobilize in force to sweep the city and likely enlist the local garrison and reserves to assist in either the sweeping or maintaining order while they're busy hunting to make sure they got the undead. Individual ones may be sequestered by the Blood of Vol cultists or manage to diplomatically stave off destruction, but they'd still largely be destroyed.

A bounty would be placed for information about how this all happened and whodunnit and bringing them to justice.

It's up to the DM whether dying once and being brought back to proper living status is enough to cause noble titles to pass onto their heirs, unless it's actually covered in one of the sourcebooks and I missed that. Having been dead for some number of years is certainly going to render them ineligible to receive property and titles that were rightfully transferred to their heirs, if not the whole being undead thing.


The idea of Karrnathi undead is that they return to their families and tell them the wonders of the Blood of Vol. It is eluded to in Faiths of Eberron that people want to believe their loved ones are returning to them, so even though they may not be exactly the same, their families accept them. It was expressly described as part of how the faith spread so quickly across Karrnath. People want to believe their loved ones are returning to them.

Eh? Karrnathi Skeletons and Zombies are all sequestered away far from Karrnath's population centers on the border with the Talenta Plains as I recall. Do you have anything to support the family of the departed actually encountering the now-Karrnathi undead body of their dead relative?


Additionally, these would be the loved ones of the noble families of Sharn. Some would be ancient, of course, but there are enough more recent deaths among the noble families to make this a good plot point. Do you really think the noble families would ALLOW the city to crush the their loved ones?

Yes. Especially if they were trying to take their stuff.

Also, it wouldn't really get to the point where the nobs would even know the former identities of the undead before the emergency response of the cityguard and citizenry destroyed or contained the small horde.


If even a few of the noble families bought into the idea that their loved ones may still be in these undead husks, it would be enough to start a debate.

Likely after the fact.


They are not violent. They are not attacking anyone.

Doesn't matter, they'll still cause an uproar and panic and there are a lot of priests of the Sovereign Host and Sacred Flame and Adventurers and veterans of the Last War around in Sharn. It is The Adventuring Hub of the setting, after all.


They are loved ones returning home.

Alternatively they are cruel parodies and mockeries of the beloved dead, created as a prank or something worse to undermine the city's morale and accomplish some terrible evil.


There are plenty of reasons why I want this to be a plot point. If the city would crush them, no problem. But, what would happen after that? The war veterans do not venture into the City of the Death. Gath sees to that. (Gath is, according to the City of Sharn, a powerful lich cleric of the Keeper who protects and mentors aspiring necromancers who show promise). And the ability for this DN to send wave after wave of 400 undead, sure they could crush each wave, but what do they do for the next wave, and the one after that?

If Gath refuses diplomatic overtures to stop harboring this miscreant, then there will be a military response from Breland to this act of war and a hefty bounty will be put out, attracting even more adventurers to Sharn, not only for the necromancer doing this, but also Gath as well.


So, I believe there would be a mixed reaction to the undead returning. As more and more relatives keep returning, Sharn may try to shut the gates, but does anyone really think that would keep the undead out? And how many lives might be lost in the process? Perhaps slain war veterans are sent to the DN through secret means and the recently deceased start returning. This could spiral out of control, and that alone would be cause for debate. How did this many undead get in the city all at once? How can they stop it? Do they want a new war with Karrnath? All of these questions would be at odds with each other. Some would demand that the capital send forces to help Sharn. But, perhaps a few would demand that their loved ones be protected by the capital.

No, that would harden the city's resolve that they were under attack and had traitors in their midst. They would raise the bounty and they would start purging people. Pyres would be built so that there would not be any new bodies for the necromancer to get ahold of if they can help it.

Sharn very well may have large sections of it put to the flame, as a result, but the worse the carnage gets, the less likely things are going to play out as you want them to, with gridlocked debate. If enough pressure is put, then anyone who suggests just accepting the undead as people would likely be crucified or otherwise killed and then their body rendered unusable, possibly by being pulped from being repeatedly dropped from wyvernback.

If they believe Karrnath is behind this, then they would believe that Karrnath has committed an act of war against them. Whether or not they want a war with Karrnath is irrelevant if Karrnath has started to make war upon them.

The demands of Sharn would be irrelevant. The Brelish Crown would HAVE to react, and this sort of thing is exactly the kind of thing that would cause the Brelish government to basically drop everything and react to it. Which could have disastrous consequences as it meant they could no longer focus on some other crucial place or event.

[TallerSpine]

Well, obviously they're not going to get any wealth or property through legal channels, and if they try to take control of Sharn by force, Sharn is going to hit back. 400 1-HD Skeletons, even if a few of them are recently dead individuals who had intimate knowledge of the city's layout and defenses, are not going to take over more than a neighbourhood or two. In the case that they somehow succeeded, Breland would flip its **** and smack that down.

As I mentioned, the Dread Necromancer could hide her creations for several days. How would the city deal with wave after wave of undead if it came down to that? Additionally, also as I mentioned, the Dread Necromancer could animate 400+ undead every day, releasing control of the previously animated dead. She could build up an army large enough that the city could NOT mount a defense. On earth, there are 15 dead people to every living person. How many dead do you think are housed in the mausoleums of the City of Towers? Enough for an army? In fact, even if they are no longer controlled, a carefully crafted order during their period of control could easily be used to build the army for the attack. For instance, "Remain here until I utter the phrase "Attack Sharn." At that point, attack Sharn. Now, the DN could animate every dead body in the City of the Dead, make them all sentient, and finally give the order for a massive attack on the city that would cause it to fall.


A phalanx of undead, even walking, talking ones, is most likely going to result in scrambling the garrison, calling up the militia to defend the city, blockades overseen by the cityguard, and aerial bombardment if possible. It would take quite the diplomacy check to avert quite the incident.

If the DN animated a juvenile silver dragon and awakened it, it could have a diplomacy of +30 easily. And if a few were sent back one at a time using Disguise Undead, it would not alert anyone's attention.


Individual undead or small groups of them are going to likely be taken out by the local adventurer and cleric population, angry mobs, and the ordinary city guard which will mobilize in force to sweep the city and likely enlist the local garrison and reserves to assist in either the sweeping or maintaining order while they're busy hunting to make sure they got the undead. Individual ones may be sequestered by the Blood of Vol cultists or manage to diplomatically stave off destruction, but they'd still largely be destroyed.

A bounty would be placed for information about how this all happened and whodunnit and bringing them to justice.

It's up to the DM whether dying once and being brought back to proper living status is enough to cause noble titles to pass onto their heirs, unless it's actually covered in one of the sourcebooks and I missed that. Having been dead for some number of years is certainly going to render them ineligible to receive property and titles that were rightfully transferred to their heirs, if not the whole being undead thing.

This is unlikely to be successful. While Sharn is the adventuring capital, if you look at numbers of forces in the city, it is not a lot. The whole city is a population of 200,000. Most adventurers in the city are low level. Like, finding a level 6 adventurer is impressive. The average adventurer or even group of adventurers would not be capable of dealing with this. The party is certainly not ready to take this head on. Many would be slaughtered, even if the Watch were to help. And if this were just the first wave, it would not matter if there was a whodunnit that tried to bring them to justice. There could be an attack of 400 undead every day! Sharn would likely fall very quickly with that kind of daily assault, even if high level priests got involved. Fortunately for Sharn, destruction and mayhem is not the DN's goal.


Eh? Karrnathi Skeletons and Zombies are all sequestered away far from Karrnath's population centers on the border with the Talenta Plains as I recall. Do you have anything to support the family of the departed actually encountering the now-Karrnathi undead body of their dead relative?

This is a good point. I remember reading somewhere about people's reactions and the spread of the Blood of Vol. Perhaps it was another reader's interpretation, and not canon. Rereading the sections on the Blood of Vol and the Karrnathi troops, I am seeing that like you said, the Karrnathi undead are kept separate.


Yes. Especially if they were trying to take their stuff.

Also, it wouldn't really get to the point where the nobs would even know the former identities of the undead before the emergency response of the cityguard and citizenry destroyed or contained the small horde.

There are more ways around this than I could count, especially since the undead is intelligent. There is no need to even consider this emergency response.


Likely after the fact.

Then, too, would they consider it. But, if a wave of 400 undead can be created every day, and all the the DN needs is to succeed on casting from a CL 11 schema at CL 8 (the only drawback for failure being that the schema becomes dormant for 1d6 days), she will be able to create intelligent undead VERY rapidly.


Doesn't matter, they'll still cause an uproar and panic and there are a lot of priests of the Sovereign Host and Sacred Flame and Adventurers and veterans of the Last War around in Sharn. It is The Adventuring Hub of the setting, after all.

Again, this is not so much an issue.


Alternatively they are cruel parodies and mockeries of the beloved dead, created as a prank or something worse to undermine the city's morale and accomplish some terrible evil.

The citizens have the option of realizing the truth that they are cruel parodies and mockeries of the beloved dead. Look to real life. How many average people are irrational? Most of them. The answer is most of them. They will not see the truth. You underestimate human stupidity.


If Gath refuses diplomatic overtures to stop harboring this miscreant, then there will be a military response from Breland to this act of war and a hefty bounty will be put out, attracting even more adventurers to Sharn, not only for the necromancer doing this, but also Gath as well.

There are few in Sharn who could oppose Gath. In fact, if Gath wanted to, he could likely slaughter a few thousand in the city before enough of a force were mounted to stop him. Then, he is still a lich, and unless they find his phylactery, he would not really be stopped, would he? That's a losing battle for both sides, but one that Gath likely would not care if he had to fight. It is just a matter of time until things settle down again. And the massive amounts of death would amuse him in the meantime.


No, that would harden the city's resolve that they were under attack and had traitors in their midst. They would raise the bounty and they would start purging people. Pyres would be built so that there would not be any new bodies for the necromancer to get ahold of if they can help it.

Sharn very well may have large sections of it put to the flame, as a result, but the worse the carnage gets, the less likely things are going to play out as you want them to, with gridlocked debate. If enough pressure is put, then anyone who suggests just accepting the undead as people would likely be crucified or otherwise killed and then their body rendered unusable, possibly by being pulped from being repeatedly dropped from wyvernback.

If they believe Karrnath is behind this, then they would believe that Karrnath has committed an act of war against them. Whether or not they want a war with Karrnath is irrelevant if Karrnath has started to make war upon them.

The demands of Sharn would be irrelevant. The Brelish Crown would HAVE to react, and this sort of thing is exactly the kind of thing that would cause the Brelish government to basically drop everything and react to it. Which could have disastrous consequences as it meant they could no longer focus on some other crucial place or event.

Interesting take, but I disagree. I think the Brelish crown would have better things to do than mount a defense against a few hundred undead. Now, if the city were overrun by thousands, certainly, they would respond. If this is not rectified, it could lead to the mass extinction of humanity, much like Game of Thrones. Notice how in the show, no one is really doing anything about the massive horde of undead that is approaching. Who wants that headache? When it comes, yes, they would fight it. But if the horde offered diplomatic options? I do not see the Brelish crown crippling itself to fight an undead menace that claims to have no hostile intent.

[Quertus]

I don't think they're world be much debate in most D&D societies - unless that debate was after the fact, regarding whether the clerics who destroyed the undead were justified.

If this society is different, great, but... What's the goal here? How does this make for something interesting?

[Gildedragon]

So if Sharn has 200k inhabitants
I'd say the number of viable bodies in the city of the dead is probably not in excess of that number: Sharn has a more or less longstanding custom of cremating bodies. I'm roughly using Vienna's number of living to dead as a baseline. Vienna has about 1M inhabitants, and between ZFH and smaller graveyards they reach about 3M corpses...ish.
And this is with a city that favors burial over cremation.
Sharn's population boom is post cremation.

Furthermore: Garth and other necromancers have depleted the number of bodies. Probably the number of bodies is 100k at absolute most.

Also uncontrolled intelligent undead: likely to fight each other too.

And as to Breland not responding:
What if Manhattan was threatened by an undead horde? Washington would flip its lid and send its forces en masse.
This would be equivalent.
And attacking Sharn is hostile intent.

The city would cut the bridges to the lower levels, shut the city gates, and prepare itself for a siege.

[TallerSpine]

So if Sharn has 200k inhabitants
I'd say the number of viable bodies in the city of the dead is probably not in excess of that number: Sharn has a more or less longstanding custom of cremating bodies. I'm roughly using Vienna's number of living to dead as a baseline. Vienna has about 1M inhabitants, and between ZFH and smaller graveyards they reach about 3M corpses...ish.
And this is with a city that favors burial over cremation.
Sharn's population boom is post cremation.

Furthermore: Garth and other necromancers have depleted the number of bodies. Probably the number of bodies is 100k at absolute most.

Also uncontrolled intelligent undead: likely to fight each other too.

And as to Breland not responding:
What if Manhattan was threatened by an undead horde? Washington would flip its lid and send its forces en masse.
This would be equivalent.
And attacking Sharn is hostile intent.

The city would cut the bridges to the lower levels, shut the city gates, and prepare itself for a siege.

The U.S. is a stable nation. You should be thinking more like the barbarian hordes are invading Rome, and because the Roman forces are out protecting the borders, Rome burns. And Keith Baker himself weighed in on this. Uncontrolled intelligent undead follow their last given order in Eberron.

[TallerSpine]

I don't think they're world be much debate in most D&D societies - unless that debate was after the fact, regarding whether the clerics who destroyed the undead were justified.

If this society is different, great, but... What's the goal here? How does this make for something interesting?

Eberron is different. They have a widespread religion that reveres undeath. They have Warforged, once property, now free. There is the notion of what constitutes a soul. This would easily spark debate in Eberron. As far as what the goal is, you would need to know about the Eberron campaign setting to understand how this makes for something interesting and what the goal is. There are literally books written about the Blood of Vol.

[Gildedragon]

The U.S. is a stable nation. You should be thinking more like the barbarian hordes are invading Rome, and because the Roman forces are out protecting the borders, Rome burns. And Keith Baker himself weighed in on this. Uncontrolled intelligent undead follow their last given order in Eberron.

Intelligent undead mindlessly following orders? Got a source for that.

Also Breland (and the other nations) are a lot more like modern states than ancient empires.

[Coidzor]

If you're not interested in feedback or critique, then why did you make this thread?

[TallerSpine]

Intelligent undead mindlessly following orders? Got a source for that.

You bet!

http://keith-baker.com/dragonmarks-614-lightning-round-4/


Could Karrnathi skeletons theoretically act autonomously like a warforged or do they require Karrnathi military orders to act?

Karrnathi skeletons can make autonomous decisions based on pre-existing orders. So if a Bone Knight tells his undead regiment “Hold this pass at any cost” and then dies, the regiment is capable of adapting their tactics to deal with whatever new threat comes along. However, they cannot do any of the following:

* Decide that they are sick of holding the pass and want to do something else.

* Conclude that circumstances have changed and that the pass is no longer strategically important.

* Compose poetry while they are waiting.

* Improve their skills – which is to say, gain class levels.

* Have any sort of emotional attachment to anyone or anything in their unit.

Karrnathi undead aren’t like vampires or liches. They can only be made from the corpses of elite Karrnathi soldiers, but a newly risen Karrnathi skeleton is identical to every other Karrnathi skeleton; it has none of the memories of the original soldier. The ritual isn’t some cheap form of raise dead. One way to look at it: a warforged has a soul; Karrnathi undead do not. FOr more on Karrnathi undead and possible dark secrets about them, check out the Fort Bones Eye on Eberron article.

[TallerSpine]

If you're not interested in feedback or critique, then why did you make this thread?

The feedback I am getting is incredibly useful. I am very interested in it. Everyone has a point of view, and I am interested in hearing it. I have strong opinions myself, but that does not make me right and them wrong. It is simply different ways of thinking. I replied to them and to you because I appreciate everyone who replies taking the time to respond to my thread. I may or may not agree with what is said, but I certainly want to read various views! I apologize if I was not clear. I am very grateful for your assistance.

[TallerSpine]

I believe that's a really more clever way to put it! I'm liking it a lot!

Anyway, some considerations:

1) regarding noble families and awakened undeads, I concur with what has been said until now: either the undead are not enough, and they are destroyed because nobody really wants a cult of undead rising in power into Sharn, especially the noble families, or they are too many, and they are again a problem that must be eradicated. I believe you are underestimating how much people in power are interested in keeping their power; take the war of the Mark for example, when all the aberrant dragonmarked were slain: many of them were the offspring of people of the very houses that attacked them in the first place.
Also, another thing to remember is that, according to the law of Galifar, undeads, intelligent or not, are objects and non persons, and they are property of whoever raise them (according they have been raised with permission, and I doubt it :smallwink: ). Even if some of the undeads were accepted by familiars, every Random McPasserby would be in his perfect right to slay them on sight.

Now, one thing that may be of your interest, is the fact that to justify a mass-destruction, even if for a good reason, I'm pretty sure the city council would have to deliberate, and if your Dread Necromancer is able to have some ally in the council, it may be possible to forestall the situation for a while (enlarging the undead army).

I have been trying to think of the best way to do this. I think that I would need to come up with a different spell. Perhaps some eldritch machine as was suggested by Kol Korran to grant the skeletons and zombies being created their memories (and a fresher look). Maybe every undead being returned from the grave has a powerful illusion masking their true nature. Then, it would not be immediately apparent that they even were undead. This is more in line with what I was thinking, anyway. Very similar to the TV show, The Returned.

This would certainly still require deliberation by Sharn's Council. The noble families would be trying to prove it is not really their loved ones returning to them. Everyone would be wondering how the dead are returning and what it means. It would create religious chaos. Those returning could fully believe they are truly ancestors returning from the grave. Perhaps the first wave to return are the most recently deceased. Perhaps it starts with a child, lost twenty years ago, but has not aged a day. Then a couple days later, someone's father who just passed returns from the grave. At first, it seems like small miracles. Most clerics would not be able to see past the powerful illusions in place. At first, the most powerful clerics (the ones with access to True Seeing) probably would not even take notice of the isolated cases. Then, as the story spreads of the dead returning, verified by trusted clerics, the higher priests begin to take notice. Before they have a chance to do anything about it, that is when hundreds start flocking back home.

Now, families have had time to accept the idea and believe that loved ones have returned to them. If a high cleric explains that the creature that returned is not their loved one, would they believe their own eyes? Or would they trust the clerics? Now, it would be a matter of the clerics ripping a long lost child from its parents arms. This could easily start a religious war. Is Karrnath involved? Perhaps. Even better for the Blood of Vol. This would destabilize the nation and allow the Blood of Vol to gain additional political influence.


2) You are right on the fact that the faith in Vol spread fast into Karrnath even because of this desire to see their loved ones back, but you should consider two things: first, it was one of many concurrent reasons, second, it was during wartime. Now that the continent is at peace, especially in a progressive place like Breland (in contrast with a more conservative country like Karrn) I don't know how much this sentiment would help.

You may be right, but progressive or not, people are stupid. En masse, they are even stupider. They are very likely to believe what they want to believe, regardless of what facts are staring them right in the face.


Another interesting thing to consider is, exactly how your Dread Necromancer align herself with the blood of Vol? From the description, I imagine she consider herself a servant of Vol. That means Kaius III (and his embassy in Sharn) would probably intervene against her, given the occasion.

I agree. Karrnath would make an excellent ally against this Dread Necromancer.


3) As for spells, another one that can be interesting for you is Animate Dread Warrior, especially if you can find a way to make it a Spell-Like Ability, ignoring the XP cost. That would be useful to awaken people recently dead.

I really was going for the idea that the people returning may not even know they are not who they used to be. I want them believing, with every fibre of their being, that they are returned. They may not understand how it happened, but they are back and they want to stay. There can be all sorts of conflicts where lovers have moved on and started new lives. Where does that leave the returned lover? If you have seen the show, you may know several of the central conflicts. Are they really the same as the lost loved ones? How did they return? Why did they return? All of these questions should be at the forefront of everyone's minds. But, to make this work, I think I need something different from either Awaken Undead or Animate Dread Warrior. I think I am going to go with Kol Korran's idea of an eldritch machine. Perhaps it makes an arcane or divine "copy" of their soul in Dolurrh. It is not actually them, but the returning undead do not know that.


Way I see it, your idea of them slowly building up a district is a very interesting one. You could play with some of them trying to come back to their original lifes, spreading rumors but not enought to really understand what's going on; and you may even shuffle around the political side of things: those of the Karrnathian embassy loyal to the King are worried about what's happening and may turn out to be the best allies (and the less expected) for the PCs, while maybe some members of the Brelish parlament, generals that want the war to start again, or important people adverse to the status quo (and to King Boranel) may work in the shadows to help the Dread Necromancer.

Yes, conflict is definitely what I am going for with this. The more conflict, the better!


Another interesting thing to consider, is the fact that higher Sharn is a manifest zone to Syrania. Maybe upsetting the balance of life and death that much may end up creating some manifest zone of Dolurrh that interferes with Syrania in unexpected and perilous ways (do not forget that Dolurrh is a plane with the High Gravity trait, and many high towers in Sharn exist basically only thanks to Syrania light Gravity).

That sounds awesome and hilarious! Crystal Towers already fell. Perhaps it was related? I like it a lot! Thanks!

[Graysire]

As for the disguise, I seem to remember Veil being a good spell for that, and if whatever-the-skill-check is failed, the reanimated nobles would seem slightly off.

[Gildedragon]

You bet!

http://keith-baker.com/dragonmarks-614-lightning-round-4/

Um this talks only of one specific sort of awakened undead; undead that could. It be done from brelish bones, and undead that specifically don't remember anything of their past lives.
Awakening them would probably override their obedient trait

[logic_error]

A couple of comments:

Sharn is a metropolis akin to New York and Breland is the USA. With that in mind, Sharn also is a city on TOP of the ancient ruins from Dhakhani times. I could imagine the Goblins in the under warrens being persuaded to look after the burgeoning undead hordes from motivations of secret revenge. At the same time, you can somehow involve the Lords of Dust secretly assisting this uprising to maximize chaos.

As for Vol, the religion is NOT about undeath at all :P. That's just a thin veneer to trick the naive iditos into serving the cause of Erandis. What you are describing, as awakened undead that want to take their own fate into their own hands, resembles more closely what the clergy of the Keeper might want to achieve.

[CozJa]

I have been trying to think of the best way to do this. I think that I would need to come up with a different spell. Perhaps some eldritch machine as was suggested by Kol Korran to grant the skeletons and zombies being created their memories (and a fresher look). Maybe every undead being returned from the grave has a powerful illusion masking their true nature. Then, it would not be immediately apparent that they even were undead. This is more in line with what I was thinking, anyway. Very similar to the TV show, The Returned.

(...)

I really was going for the idea that the people returning may not even know they are not who they used to be. I want them believing, with every fibre of their being, that they are returned. They may not understand how it happened, but they are back and they want to stay. There can be all sorts of conflicts where lovers have moved on and started new lives. Where does that leave the returned lover? If you have seen the show, you may know several of the central conflicts. Are they really the same as the lost loved ones? How did they return? Why did they return? All of these questions should be at the forefront of everyone's minds. But, to make this work, I think I need something different from either Awaken Undead or Animate Dread Warrior. I think I am going to go with Kol Korran's idea of an eldritch machine. Perhaps it makes an arcane or divine "copy" of their soul in Dolurrh. It is not actually them, but the returning undead do not know that.


Mh... I was thinking... there may even be another way to do this: what if the Dread Necromancer is actually doing two different things? On the one hand she is raising her Army of the Dead TM, on the other hand, she has a long-term plan: maybe the loved ones that are back, are bodies regenerated in some way (you can have a combination of gentle repose and other things) and she is using an eldritch machine that can harness:
a) souls from Dolurrh (in that case the returned loved ones are really the returned love ones)
b) the quori!
c) both

For example, it may be that during one of the astral rain of Siberys dragonshards, the Dread Necromancer was able to find a piece of the 13th Moon destroyed by the Giants eons ago. Using it and some ancient magic provided by Erandis, she is able to bind the amnesiac quori to deceased bodies, and since they have no memory, they take up the memories of the deceased people.
(I remember that one snippet in Faiths of Eberron says that Breland is considered an important place where the cult of Vol will fight a decisive battle, therefore a high interest in Sharn is justified)

If you are using deceased bodies and you need to have them look fresh, remember that you can use some illusion magic and with a steady provision of Khyber dragonshards, you can indefinitely use the Cloak of Khyber spell to defeat True Seeing. (that would provide another set of clues for the PCs: who's using up all those Khyber dragonshards?)

Ok, finished throwing around ideas for now :smallwink:

[TallerSpine]

Um this talks only of one specific sort of awakened undead; undead that could. It be done from brelish bones, and undead that specifically don't remember anything of their past lives.
Awakening them would probably override their obedient trait

That is a good point. I was reading it more as, with a charisma of 1, they lack a personality. They lack even a semblance of a soul. The Awaken Undead spell, even where they get skills and feats, would be like a robot trying to process another's life. It has lost all desires from when it was living. That's why I agree with Kol Korran in the second post that I need a different mechanic to make this work.