Possible paladin fixes

[Kaleph]

Hi, one player wanted to play a paladin in the current campaign because of the flavor, but he was definitely disappointed with the class features. At the end, he decided for an exalted character and dropped the idea of a pally.

Nevertheless, I was speculating about a way to re-balance the paladin and bringing it to T3 or so. The first option is of course just refluffing (slightly) a crusader, but I believe that also a concept which stays closer to the original may be developed.

So I was thinking about some rework as follows:

- remove all class features, except the mount and divine grace. The chassis stays the same.
- add minor and major auras, as the marshal.
- add touch of vitality as the dragon shaman, and let it qualify for divine feats.
- add steely resolve as a crusader.
- change it to a full caster and provide access to 5th lvl spells, in a similar fashion as the duskblade.

I believe in this way the class is borderline T3, and at least somewhat competitive with the bard, the duskblade and the psychic warrior. I also have the feeling, that there's some reason to remain mono-class instead of dipping.

What do you think? Is it worth spending some more hours to develope this concept, in case it happens again that someone wants a pally, or is the class destined to remain anyhow unappealing, in terms of game mechanics?

[TheTeaMustFlow]

You could look at the various Paladin fixes out there - I'm particularly partial to Grod's one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?221312-A-hero-is-a-man-too-stubborn-to-die-a-3-5-Paladin-fix-(PEACH)&p=12150015#post12150015).

[Kaleph]

You could look at the various Paladin fixes out there - I'm particularly partial to Grod's one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?221312-A-hero-is-a-man-too-stubborn-to-die-a-3-5-Paladin-fix-(PEACH)&p=12150015#post12150015).

Thank you. A couple of class features (including d12 HP and shield of loyalty) match with what I was looking for. Also, some sort of cunning dodge, fueled by touch of vitality and replacing the capstone, coul work.

Do you have any experience in-game with any rebalanced paladin?

[Deeds]

Do you have any experience in-game with any rebalanced paladin?
Yes. The crusader was a bit disappointing to me. The idea of smacking a baddie, giving an ally a +4 bonus to attack, and letting them finish the job sounded good on paper. After 1 session, I would have rather have been a barbarian or warblade thanks to our party's lack of damage dealers (let alone a lack of competent builds at all.)

As far as fixing the paladin, what's wrong with it?
Lack of spells per day?
Lack of smites per day?
Lack of skill points?
Lack of damage output outside a charge build?

[Kaleph]

Yes. The crusader was a bit disappointing to me. The idea of smacking a baddie, giving an ally a +4 bonus to attack, and letting them finish the job sounded good on paper. After 1 session, I would have rather have been a barbarian or warblade thanks to our party's lack of damage dealers (let alone a lack of competent builds at all.)

As far as fixing the paladin, what's wrong with it?
Lack of spells per day?
Lack of smites per day?
Lack of skill points?
Lack of damage output outside a charge build?

Lack of versatility, mainly. This is why I increased the spells/spell level. Also, the pally is mainly a melee character, but the class features lack somehow an edge. A barbarian is typically a better damage dealer, and a crusader a better tank.

I was trying to give him some more utility, e.g. auras, and also make him more tanky/meatshield.

[John Longarrow]

Use the prestige paladin from UA? Yep, <Melee Class-1>/Cleric-4/Paladin-15 becomes your build (gives a caster level of 12) but it accomplishes a lot of what your looking for. It also meets with the fluff of "Being a paladin is a calling" so you don't really see young adults being Paladins.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The Paladin spell list is pretty excellent. Making the casting Cha-based and using the Duskblade progression alone ought to do it, though I'd throw in a souped-up, per-encounter Smite and 4+Int skill points.


Or use a full rewrite like mine, of course ;)

[Kitsuneymg]

Start with the Pathfinder base paladin (including PF smite and spells). Now you're high T4. You may have to handwave some similar abilities (channel energy -> turn undead for the purposes of prereqs and activation, yadda yadda.)

Give them one of the following:

Celestial Aid(Su): by expending a use of her lay on hands, a paladin may summon an ally to aid her. This functions as summon monster I, except it can only be used to summon celestial creatures, archons, and angels. Feats or Items that expand her list of allowed creatures may expand this, but the paladin may only summon good creatures. At forth level, this improves to Summon Monster 2. This continues to increase by one spell level for every two levels thereafter, to a maximum of summon monster IX at 18th level. At 20th level, this may act as a Gate spell. The paladin's caster level is equal to her paladin level for the purposes of this ability.
Celestial Ally(Su): At 8th level, a paladin may call upon her deity for aid, in the form of a powerful servant. This allows the sacred servant to cast lesser planar ally once per week as a spell-like ability without having to pay the material component cost or the servant. At 12th level, this improves to planar ally and at 16th level, this improves to greater planar ally. The paladin's caster level is equal to her paladin level for the purposes of this ability.
Improved Magic(Ex): The paladin adds the first six levels of cleric spells to her paladin spell list (including cantrips). She gains spells per day as a bard of her level, but still prepares spells as normal.


And:
Domain: The paladin gains one domain associated with her deity at first level, using her paladin level as her effective cleric level, and her charisma in place of her wisdom for all related abilities. Whenever she gains access to a level of spells, she gains one domain spell slot, which must be used to memorize a spell from her domain.

The first option gets you access (behind a standard action) to a large spell list. The second is the most powerful one (potentially t2?), as you can eventually call upon angles with effective cleric levels (in PF, that caps at a 7th level cleric. CBA to remember what 3.5 caps at.) The third is the simplest fix for players not wanting to deal with minions and is never going to exceed t3. It does make battle blessing pretty amazing.

Some of the pathfinder paladin spells (litany line, saddle surge) are fantastic. The fact that all paladin's can smite with ranged weapons helps too. Finally, allowing them access to the pathfinder feat "fey foundling" makes their lay on hands into a tanking ability (+2 hp healed per die rolled, and LoH has rogue sneak attack scaling). Pay attention to the PF paladin's catser level (level-3 instead fo level/2.)

You should probably also have one LoH uses count as a turn use (instead of 2 counting as a channel use which is the PF replacement for turn uses) for the purposes of activating abilities like travel devotion or divine smite. Upping extra smite feat to 2 uses and extra Lay on Hands feat to 4 uses is another good way to buff that up. Lastly, you could allow any archetype from PF (except probably Sacred Servant, which is the origin of the Celestial Ally above) to further enhance the paladin. Oath of Vengeance is likely the only useful one.

[digiman619]

The Paladin class has a lot of baggage. It's got a big, red, shiny self-destruct button built right into it, and it's not that strong in the first place. So my solution: Don't use it. As I once said in one of my earliest posts:
If you want to have a warrior with an oath that they hold dear, play a Cavalier.
If you want to have a holy warrior guided by faith, play a Warpriest.
If you want to uphold your faith's traditoins, play an Inquisitor
And if you just want to play a good guy, don't look into class as a way to express that.
Admittedly, I was talking as a Pathfinder player, but the point stands.

[Telonius]

My group has been testing out a completely re-worked Paladin class. I drew it up quite a while back. We're still in relatively low levels, and I'm not totally convinced I haven't made the numbers too high, in higher level abilities; but it seems to be working out pretty well so far. At some point I may put it into a regular table with pretty formatting and post it in the homebrew forum. Anyway, the changes are in the spoiler.


Alignment: The Paladin must take the alignment of her deity or cause. In the case of a cause, the Paladin’s player should work with the Dungeon Master to determine the closest applicable alignment.

Hit Die, Attack Bonus, Base Saves, Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: As the standard Paladin.

Skills: Skill points improve to 4+Int per level. Add Knowledge (the planes) and Perform to the list of class skills.

Spells: As the standard Paladin, except: add equivalent-alignment spells wherever applicable. (i.e. Protection from Law and Good). Paladins may not cast spells with alignments descriptors opposed to their own. True Neutral Paladins may cast any spell that does not have two alignments (i.e. [Law] and [Good], or [Chaos] and [Evil]).

Faith Points: A Paladin has access to a pool of Faith Points. Faith Points are used to activate or improve various class features of the Paladin. Each Faith Point may be used once per day. Unless otherwise noted, the Paladin can choose to apply any number of faith points to any feature as a free action during her turn. Unless otherwise noted, the effects last until the Paladin recharges Faith Points. The Paladin’s total reserve of Faith Points can be recharged once a day by praying or meditating for 15 minutes.

The Paladin’s pool of Faith Points for each day is set during the recharge, an is equal to the Paladin level plus the Charisma bonus (if positive). Only the Paladin’s natural Charisma score counts towards the pool; bonuses due to spells, magic items, or other abilities do not count. (Bonuses due to level increase, age category, or inherent bonuses granted by the Wish spell or a Tome of Leadership and Influence, do apply). If the Paladin’s Charisma score is later modified (through ability damage or other methods) the Faith Point pool for that day does not change.

Spirit of Faith. Beginning at first level, a Paladin’s faith in her deity or cause begins to manifest itself as a Spirit of Faith. The spirit is insubstantial but visible. The Spirit of Faith displays itself differently according to level. The displays are cumulative. The Paladin may opt to suppress this effect as a free action. Once suppressed, it becomes invisible and cannot be detected by any means. The Paladin can reactivate the display as a Free Action.

1-5: The Spirit takes the form of a symbol of the Paladin’s deity or cause. It appears somewhere on the Paladin’s clothes or armor.
6-10: The Paladin’s appearance is subtly changed. Her eyes gain a gleam of inner strength, and her face seems to give off a faint glow of divine fervor.
11-15: The Spirit manifests more clearly as a halo of energy above the Paladin’s head. The exact appearance will vary by deity or cause. (For a Paladin of Hextor, it may appear as an iron crown; Paladins of Obad-Hai may seem to have a crown of holly leaves).
16-20: The Spirit manifests itself physically as a pair of wings. These wings grant the Paladin a Fly speed equal to her land speed with Good maneuverability. If the Paladin already has a Fly speed, use the better of the two speeds. The appearance of the wings will vary by the deity or cause. (Paladins of Good deities may appear as feathered angel wings; Paladins of nature deities may appear as bird wings; Paladins devoted to dragons may seem to have dragon wings, etc).

Aura of Faith: The Spirit of Faith gives the Paladin’s alignment aura (on both the Law/Chaos axis as well as the Good/Evil axis) power equal to the Paladin’s level.

Detect Heretic: The Spirit of Faith allows a Paladin to detect any creature with an alignment opposite to the Paladin. (In the case of a True Neutral Paladin, the Spirit detects any creature with two extremes: LG, LE, CG, and CE).

Smite Heretic: Starting at first level, the Spirit of Faith can give a Paladin great prowess when fighting foes opposed to her cause. Before attacking an opponent, a Paladin may spend a Faith Point to attempt to Smite the enemy. The attack roll gains an Insight bonus of +1 per three Paladin levels. (This bonus is also added to critical threat confirmation rolls, if applicable). If the strike succeeds, the Paladin deals an extra 1 point of damage per Paladin level. If the Paladin accidentally attempts to Smite an enemy that does not have an opposed alignment, the attack and damage bonuses do not apply, but the Faith Point is still spent.

Divine Grace: As standard; this is a Spirit of Faith ability. A Paladin may spend one Faith Point as an immediate action to double the bonus on the next save only.

Shield of Faith Starting at 2nd level, the Spirit of Faith takes physical manifestation as a though it were a shield. The shield can be a light or heavy shield at the Paladin’s option. The Shield always attends the Paladin (as though it were an Animated Shield), and the Paladin does not need to carry it. The shield does not impose any armor check penalties. If the Paladin carries an actual shield, any magical bonuses overlap (do not stack). At 2nd level, the Shield grants a Shield bonus to AC equal to the Paladin’s Charisma modifier (if positive). Starting at fourth level the Shield gains a magical enhancement bonus equal to the Paladin level divided by 4. Shield of Faith is a Force effect.

Lay On Hands: Beginning at 2nd level, the Spirit of Faith allows the Paladin to heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. Each day she can use this ability a number of times equal to 1/2 her paladin level plus her Charisma modifier. With one use of this ability, a paladin can heal 1d6 hit points of damage for every two paladin levels she possesses. Using this ability is a standard action, unless the paladin targets herself, in which case it is a swift action. Despite the name of this ability, a paladin only needs one free hand to use this ability.

By spending Faith Points, the Paladin can also remove various conditions that are present in the recipient. The conditions removed are cumulative. (If a Paladin spends 3 faith points, the target would be cured of fatigue and disease, as well as blindness or deafness).
Points Spent: Conditions cured.
1: Fatigued, Shaken, Sickened, Dazzled
2: Dazed, Diseased, Stunned, Frightened
3: Blinded, Deafened, Exhausted, Panicked
4. Nauseated, Confused, Paralyzed, Petrified

Alternately, a paladin can use this healing power to channel energy to undead. If the Paladin has Good alignment, she channels positive energy and damages undead. If the Paladin is Evil, she channels negative energy and heals undead. If the Paladin is neutral, she must decide whether to channel positive or negative energy. When the Paladin channels energy, she deals damage to (or heals) damage to undead creatures, dealing (or healing) 1d6 points of damage for every two levels the paladin possesses. Using lay on hands in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. Undead do not receive a saving throw against this damage.

Aura of Courage: Beginning at 3rd level, the Spirit of Faith bolsters the Paladin and her allies against Fear effects. The paladin is immune to fear (magical or otherwise). Each ally within 10 feet of her gains a morale bonus (equal to the Paladin level divided by three) on saving throws against fear effects.

The Paladin may spend faith points to increase the area of the aura by +5 feet per faith point. Once selected, the bonus applies until the Paladin recharges her Faith Point pool.

Divine Health: As standard Paladin.

Turn Undead: As standard Paladin, except: The Paladin can turn or rebuke undead, depending on which choice she made when she gained Lay On Hands. The Paladin is treated as a Cleric of (Paladin level – 3).

As a Swift action, a Paladin may spend faith points to increase the effectiveness of her Undead Turning. For each Faith Point she spends, the effective turning level increases by one. The effective Turning levels granted in this manner cannot exceed three. (This bonus does not stack with any other effect increasing the Paladin’s effective turning level). This bonus applies only to a single use of Turn Undead.

Armor of Faith: Starting at fourth level, the Paladin gains a Dodge bonus to Armor Class equal to her Charisma bonus.

The Paladin can also imbue her armor with magical Special Abilities by spending one faith point per effective enhancement bonus. Bonuses granted by Armor of Faith overlap with (do not stack with) any actual armor worn. The total bonus of a suit of armor cannot exceed 10. (Despite the name, Armor of Faith’s bonuses function even if the Paladin is not actually wearing armor at the moment. If the Paladin is unarmored, the Spirit of Faith manifests as a faintly shimmering aura of light). Once selected, the bonus applies until the Paladin recharges her Faith Point pool.

Sword of Zeal: Starting at fifth level, the Paladin adds her Charisma modifier (if positive) as a bonus on all attack rolls. Additionally, any weapon a Paladin wields counts as having the same alignment of the Paladin (for purposes of damage reduction). True Neutral Paladins may choose an alignment each day upon recharging the Faith Point pool. The alignment can only be one extreme of alignment. (For example, a True Neutral Paladin can choose to have a Chaotic weapon or a Good weapon, but not a Chaotic Good weapon).

Knight of Faith

A Paladin can activate the Knight of Faith feature as a standard action. When activated, the Paladin’s Spirit of Faith temporarily leaves her immediate presence and becomes a physical manifestation, as though it were a mount of an appropriate size to bear the Paladin. When the Paladin activates the ability, the mount immediately appears under the Paladin (no move action necessary to mount). While Knight of Faith is active, most of the usual bonuses granted by the Spirit of Faith are not active. Armor of Faith, Sword of Zeal, Shield of Faith, and the Spirit of Faith displays remain active.

The mount takes a visual form appropriate to the Paladin’s belief system, but uses the statistics for a Heavy Warhorse (if the Paladin is medium) or a Riding Dog (if the Paladin is small). If the Paladin is riding a real mount when the ability is activated, the Spirit infuses the mount and grants the Paladin the bonuses as usual, with no change in statistics for the real mount. The Spirit can remain as a physical manifestation indefinitely. The Paladin can dismiss it as a standard action; the spirit then returns to the Paladin, who gains all the regular bonuses as normal. If the mount is “slain,” the Spirit returns to the Paladin and becomes inactive for 24 hours. During that time, the Paladin gains no benefits from the spirit.

While Knight of Faith is active, the Paladin gains a bonus on the Ride skill equal to her Paladin level. For every Faith Point the Paladin spends, she is treated as having the following feats for one minute. (Feats are cumulative; an 11th-level Paladin who spends 1 Faith Point gains Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, and Spirited Charge for one minute). If the Paladin already has one of the feats listed, no additional bonus is gained.

5 – Mounted Combat
8 – Ride-By Attack
11 – Spirited Charge
14 – Powerful Charge
17 – Greater Powerful Charge
20 – Trample

Divine Intervention. Starting at seventh level, the Spirit of Faith can rescue the Paladin in dire emergencies. As an immediate action, the Paladin can spend two Faith Points to negate any attack (physical or magical) made against the Paladin. The Paladin must choose to use this ability after the attack succeeds (or after the saving throw fails), but before the damage is declared. If the attack is an Area Effect, the Paladin is unaffected, but others within the area of the spell are affected as normal.

The Paladin can also spend one Faith Point to end any of the following conditions active on the Paladin: Blinded, Confused, Dazed, Dazzled, Deafened, Exhausted, Fascinated, Fatigued, Nauseated, Paralyzed, Sickened, Stunned. The Paladin can spend two Faith Points to end the Petrified condition.

Test of Faith. Starting at eighth level, the Spirit of Faith can rock an enemy’s beliefs to their very core, forcing them to confront the Paladin directly. To activate this ability, spend a number of Faith Points equal to the number of enemies targeted. The targeted enemies must be creatures with intelligence of at least 3, and must be able to see and hear (or otherwise sense) the Paladin. Each targeted enemy must make a Will save (DC 10 + Class Level + Charisma modifier). On a successful save, the effect is negated and the Paladin may not target that creature with another Test of Faith for 24 hours. On a failed save, the enemy considers the Paladin the most serious threat on the battlefield, and must attack her to the best of its ability, to the exclusion of all other targets, for the duration of the encounter. This does not render the opponent mindless; an enemy will not charge into an obviously open pit or draw attacks of opportunity unnecessarily in order to reach the Paladin. However, the enemy may not target anyone else with an attack, spell, or ability until the Paladin is killed or incapacitated. If it’s completely impossible for the enemy to target the Paladin (for example, if the enemy is on the other side of a chasm and has no ranged attacks available), the enemy can continue attacking other enemies as usual, but will start shouting out insults to the Paladin. At 12th level, this ability affects up to two enemies per Faith Point spent.

Divine Insight. Starting at 10th level, the Spirit of Faith grants the Paladin an Insight bonus (equal to the Charisma modifier, if positive) to resisting the following special attacks: Bull Rush, Disarm, Grapple, Overrun, Sunder, and Trip.

Divine Foresight. Starting at 12th level, the Spirit grants the Paladin a bonus to Initiative equal to her Charisma modifier (if positive).

Divine Guidance. Starting at 14th level, the Spirit grants the Paladin the Improved Critical feat for her deity’s Favored Weapon. If the Paladin threatens a critical hit, she may choose to spend Faith Points to grant her a bonus on the threat confirmation roll (+1 per Faith Point spent).

Faith Beyond Reproach. At 20th level, if a Paladin is reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by an effect that otherwise leaves her body intact, she can expend one Faith Point to remain conscious and continue to act for 1 more round before dying. She can use this ability even if her hit point total is –10 or lower. If the Paladin’s body is somehow destroyed before her next action (such as by disintegrate), then she cannot act. She can continue to expend Faith Points to survive from round to round until she runs out of uses. If she receive healing that leaves her with more than –10 hit points, she survives (or falls unconscious, as appropriate to the new hit point total) when she stops using this ability. Otherwise, death overtakes her when she runs out of Faith Points.

[Kaleph]

Use the prestige paladin from UA? Yep, <Melee Class-1>/Cleric-4/Paladin-15 becomes your build (gives a caster level of 12) but it accomplishes a lot of what your looking for. It also meets with the fluff of "Being a paladin is a calling" so you don't really see young adults being Paladins.

I know the prestige paladin, it's a partially-ok solution to improve spellcasting (although the CL isn't impressive), but it provides the same class features as the standard class, and this is the other factor I want to alter.


Start with the Pathfinder base paladin (including PF smite and spells). Now you're high T4. You may have to handwave some similar abilities (channel energy -> turn undead for the purposes of prereqs and activation, yadda yadda.)

Give them one of the following:

Celestial Aid(Su): by expending a use of her lay on hands, a paladin may summon an ally to aid her. This functions as summon monster I, except it can only be used to summon celestial creatures, archons, and angels. Feats or Items that expand her list of allowed creatures may expand this, but the paladin may only summon good creatures. At forth level, this improves to Summon Monster 2. This continues to increase by one spell level for every two levels thereafter, to a maximum of summon monster IX at 18th level. At 20th level, this may act as a Gate spell. The paladin's caster level is equal to her paladin level for the purposes of this ability.
Celestial Ally(Su): At 8th level, a paladin may call upon her deity for aid, in the form of a powerful servant. This allows the sacred servant to cast lesser planar ally once per week as a spell-like ability without having to pay the material component cost or the servant. At 12th level, this improves to planar ally and at 16th level, this improves to greater planar ally. The paladin's caster level is equal to her paladin level for the purposes of this ability.
Improved Magic(Ex): The paladin adds the first six levels of cleric spells to her paladin spell list (including cantrips). She gains spells per day as a bard of her level, but still prepares spells as normal.


And:
Domain: The paladin gains one domain associated with her deity at first level, using her paladin level as her effective cleric level, and her charisma in place of her wisdom for all related abilities. Whenever she gains access to a level of spells, she gains one domain spell slot, which must be used to memorize a spell from her domain.

The first option gets you access (behind a standard action) to a large spell list. The second is the most powerful one (potentially t2?), as you can eventually call upon angles with effective cleric levels (in PF, that caps at a 7th level cleric. CBA to remember what 3.5 caps at.) The third is the simplest fix for players not wanting to deal with minions and is never going to exceed t3. It does make battle blessing pretty amazing.

Some of the pathfinder paladin spells (litany line, saddle surge) are fantastic. The fact that all paladin's can smite with ranged weapons helps too. Finally, allowing them access to the pathfinder feat "fey foundling" makes their lay on hands into a tanking ability (+2 hp healed per die rolled, and LoH has rogue sneak attack scaling). Pay attention to the PF paladin's catser level (level-3 instead fo level/2.)

You should probably also have one LoH uses count as a turn use (instead of 2 counting as a channel use which is the PF replacement for turn uses) for the purposes of activating abilities like travel devotion or divine smite. Upping extra smite feat to 2 uses and extra Lay on Hands feat to 4 uses is another good way to buff that up. Lastly, you could allow any archetype from PF (except probably Sacred Servant, which is the origin of the Celestial Ally above) to further enhance the paladin. Oath of Vengeance is likely the only useful one.

I'll have a look to the PF pally, sounds interesting, since high T4 is already fully playable. Of the additional abilities, domains is my favorite one, since it allows a certain level of customization. The summon monster line doesn't really fit in the typical playstile that someone choosing a pally may expect, and the planar ally option could bring in the game a critter who's even stronger than the pally himself. 6th level spell is a bit too much in a 3.5 game, in comparison to a bard. I'll also have a look to the feats you proposed, thank you.

[AuraTwilight]

I'm pretty partial to http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?193554-Project-Heretica-not-just-a-Paladin-retooling (T.G. Oskar's full rewrite.)

[Kaleph]

The Paladin spell list is pretty excellent. Making the casting Cha-based and using the Duskblade progression alone ought to do it, though I'd throw in a souped-up, per-encounter Smite and 4+Int skill points.


Or use a full rewrite like mine, of course ;)

Thank you. The Cha-based casting to reduce MAD is also a very good idea.


My group has been testing out a completely re-worked Paladin class. I drew it up quite a while back. We're still in relatively low levels, and I'm not totally convinced I haven't made the numbers too high, in higher level abilities; but it seems to be working out pretty well so far. At some point I may put it into a regular table with pretty formatting and post it in the homebrew forum. Anyway, the changes are in the spoiler.


The test of faith and Faith Beyond Reproach are in the direction I'm looking for - similar to some knight feature which I was already taking into consideration.


I'm pretty partial to http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?193554-Project-Heretica-not-just-a-Paladin-retooling (T.G. Oskar's full rewrite.)

I'll have a look to this homebrew, too.

The actual campaign is pretty much diplomacy-based, I expect the next one will be meleecentered, so it's a good idea to spend some hour to create an interesting class. As far as I can understand, the paladin is actually "fixable" and the idea to provide him 5th level spells is a good basis, as someone agreed to already. I'll consider the already existing homebrews for the rest.

[stanprollyright]

Use the PF pally.

[DEMON]

There's a lot of things that Paladin could do with (or without), many of which were suggested above.

These include:

*Good Will save
*Cha-based casting, that reduces MAD and most likely buffs other class features thanks to higher CHA bonus
*Duskblade- or Bard-like spell progression (or Mystic Ranger spell progression if you're feeling crazy)
*Righteous fury or something similar in place of Smite Evil (Whirling Frenzy lite if you're willing to be really generous)
*Removing or reducing the Paladin's Code of Conduct

Also, the many ACFs for Special Mount and Remove Disease (such as Divine Spirit and Curse Breaker) go a long way to making the Paladin a more versatile and less sucky class overall.

[Grod_The_Giant]

*Duskblade- or Bard-like spell progression (or Mystic Ranger spell progression if you're feeling crazy)
Mystic Ranger progression is abysmally written; use Duskblade for a 5th level caster that makes sense.

[Hurnn]

6/9 casting off paladin and cleric list. Give domain powers. Do away with stupid alignment restrictions, and code.

[RedWarlock]

To all spellcasting++ fixes, I say: Meh.

I'd rather see more unique mechanics than just turning it into almost-cleric.

Just my opinion, ignore as you will, I'd like to see more novel ideas, tho. (though simplifying the casting stat to Cha alongside other mechanics is good, IMO. Half-casters that already have to cover heavy physical requirements should be single-stat, whereas full casters should really be split-stat, or heck, all three. Make 'em work for it.)

[DEMON]

Mystic Ranger progression is abysmally written; use Duskblade for a 5th level caster that makes sense.

Indeed. Hence the "feeling crazy" reference :smallwink:

Of course, even when going with Duskblade spellcasting progression, there's still the issue of introducing 0 and 5th level Paladin spells and making changes if you want to keep the Paladin's prepared casting.

[Andezzar]

Use the prestige paladin from UA? Yep, <Melee Class-1>/Cleric-4/Paladin-15 becomes your build (gives a caster level of 12) but it accomplishes a lot of what your looking for. It also meets with the fluff of "Being a paladin is a calling" so you don't really see young adults being Paladins.You do realize that cleric 6/Prestige paladin 3/Cleric 11 is a lot better mechanically? What he lacks in smites he makes up in genuine spellcasting.

[DEMON]

You do realize that cleric 6/Prestige paladin 3/Cleric 11 is a lot better mechanically? What he lacks in smites he makes up in genuine spellcasting.

But then, in the end, you're not much of a "Paladin" anymore, just a marginally upgraded Cleric (which can be done with any number of different PrCs). While obviously a more powerful option, it's a rather big departure from the OP :smallbiggrin:

Also, as a side note & for the lulz, when going the Prestige Paladin route, take Destroy Undead ACF with your cleric for 2 different Turn Undead pools fuelling your divine feats.

[Kaleph]

You do realize that cleric 6/Prestige paladin 3/Cleric 11 is a lot better mechanically? What he lacks in smites he makes up in genuine spellcasting.

Yep, the idea is not to let him compete with consolidated classes like CoDzilla or barbarian, but give him a separate niche that can make him interesting and unique.

Utility and sheer tanking power were my original idea, collecting whenever possible already existing features (e.g. marshal auras, the abilities of the knight to create aggro, steely resolve/furious counterstrike...).

[Waker]

Most of the other suggestions have already been made, but there are a few other changes that could be addressed.

Mechanical changes
-At-Will Detect Chaos. Paladins are Lawful Good, yet all of their class abilities revolve around combating evil. Now they can detect Chaos and/or Evil creatures.
-Smite Opposition. Stolen from the Soulborn class. Now a Paladin can smite any creature that is Chaotic or Evil, rather than just Evil. This expands on the number of creatures you can effectively combat.

Roleplaying changes
-Changing the Paladin code. Either getting rid of it entirely or customizing it based on which deity you follow. Why would Paladins who worship Heironeous, Cuthbert, Moradin, Wee Jas and Pelor all follow the same code? Tailor the expected behavior to whatever the churches say.

[ottdmk]

I rather like the Paladin, fluff-wise, but yeah, mechanics are a little harsh. Some things I've thought of in the past:

1) Give them full caster level. For most paladin spells it'll just help with duration anyways.
2) Give them Battle Blessing (Complete Champion) as a bonus feat.
3) Never thought of it myself, but I like the notion of moving their casting to Charisma as others in this thread have mentioned.
4) I've also kicked around the idea of making them spontaneous casters.

If you think that all four of those makes them outshine dedicated casters, you could always look at using the Favored Soul split attribute rules with Paladins.

I also like the notion of giving the Paladin Smite Opposition from Magic of Incarnum over Smite Evil. Heck, give them Detect Opposition as well. (The Soulborn should really have Detect Opposition as an innate ability.)

[Fouredged Sword]

A quick and dirty fix may be to turn smites to a per encounter feature and maybe bard casting off the paladin 1-4 and then cleric 5-6 list.

Bard is a half skillmonkey/half caster. Paladin is a half fighter/half caster.

[Godskook]

Hi, one player wanted to play a paladin in the current campaign because of the flavor, but he was definitely disappointed with the class features. At the end, he decided for an exalted character and dropped the idea of a pally.

Nevertheless, I was speculating about a way to re-balance the paladin and bringing it to T3 or so. The first option is of course just refluffing (slightly) a crusader, but I believe that also a concept which stays closer to the original may be developed.

So I was thinking about some rework as follows:

- remove all class features, except the mount and divine grace. The chassis stays the same.
- add minor and major auras, as the marshal.
- add touch of vitality as the dragon shaman, and let it qualify for divine feats.
- add steely resolve as a crusader.
- change it to a full caster and provide access to 5th lvl spells, in a similar fashion as the duskblade.

I believe in this way the class is borderline T3, and at least somewhat competitive with the bard, the duskblade and the psychic warrior. I also have the feeling, that there's some reason to remain mono-class instead of dipping.

What do you think? Is it worth spending some more hours to develope this concept, in case it happens again that someone wants a pally, or is the class destined to remain anyhow unappealing, in terms of game mechanics?

My simple suggestion:
-Give Paladins 4 or 6 skill points per level. Give them Gather Information, Spot, Listen and Survival.
-Make Smite usable X/battle, not X/day, like Maneuvers
-Battle Blessing is free.
-Smite works on any *opponent*, but only if the Paladin offers terms of surrender first. He can't smite in ambush unless they ping evil. He falls if he refuses surrender.
-Give it the feat-Paladin progression without giving up spellcasting, and all the Paladin-specific and Devotion feats are added to the list of feats you can take with it.
-Give them the ranged smite feat too.
-Extra Smiting can be taken at level 1, but only gives 1 extra smite per battle until BAB 4
-Give them the Ordained Champion's Smite ability at level 8, in addition to normal smiting.

-Focus campaigns where mounts can actually work, similarly to how your campaigns with wizards don't happen in null-magic zones, and your campaigns with evil PCs don't start in a room full of LG Deities. Outside, large hallways, etc, etc. Don't send your Paladin player to smoke out Tucker's Kobolds, he won't be good at it.


That alone should give the Paladin enough to keep up with a Warblade at most levels, primarily by letting him have the skills to leverage his Charisma, and enough smite attempts to warrant calling Charisma a combat-stat.


Another simple "suggestion":

Paladin 2/Swordsage 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 6

The above build, with Ascetic Mage, has Charisma to AC, and tons of other goodies, as well as 16 BAB fractional. Simply massaging the above build into a base-class, with the class features, skill points and w/e ironed out into a far more even leveling experience would prove to be a tier 3+ experience for any player who wanted to take the class to 20. Further mild homebrewing to give it better discipline selection.

[Grand Arbiter]

*Rummages around in bin of quality homebrew & pulls out a link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?193554-Project-Heretica-not-just-a-Paladin-retooling).*

T.G. Oskar's homebrew is superb, particularly his "Retooled" classes. His take on paladin is located in post #2.

[SirNibbles]

I like the idea of the Paladin having Smite Evil. However, I think it should be active all the time. If you hit an evil enemy, it's an auto-Smite (+ Paladin level to damage).
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I think world building is a large part of the Paladin's power. If you are a Paladin, it means you have connections with religious organisations which may have significant political, social, and economic power. Religious organisations backing Paladins probably have much more power than associations of classes like Barbarians, Rangers, Druids, etc. Being able to use your connections to benefit yourself and your party is important, but it relies on the DM creating a world in which those connections actually exist.

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Cleric should have been split into Cleric/Cloistered Cleric, with the former having reduced casting and 3/4 BAB and the latter having normal Cleric casting and 1/2 BAB. Paladin is so inferior to the Cleric that it's sad.

[Nifft]

* Fixed-list spontaneous casting, like a Warmage, from a smaller list than the Core Paladin list. This smaller list could include some tactical movement spells. Paladin players shouldn't agonize about spell choices -- they have too few slots for that.

* Caster level = character level, so they're not instantly debuffed when a dispel lands.

* A few more slots, and start the spells earlier (level 1 or 2) so that spells can replace both Lay On Hands & Cure Disease.

* A choice of Order which adds spells to your fixed list. This is where setting-specific or campaign-specific spells get added. Other benefits can attach to Order, too.

* Aura of Courage might be just the first aura you know. Allow more through feats or class feature progression. Auras seemed like a cool feature, but they were too often attached to lackluster classes.

* Smite Evil could also trigger some kind of Aura bonus effect for a duration, with the bonus depending on the current Aura. That incentivizes the Paladin to space out Smites, and to switch Auras ahead of time for tactical perks.

* Remove the Special Mount feature. Instead, give a reduction to LA for appropriately mount-like Cohorts, and let the Paladin ride a dragon just like everyone else.

[Seto]

I'd like to third the PF Paladin. It requires almost no adaptation, and it's noticeably more powerful (The improved smite letting you smite an enemy at will until they die is great). It's worked well for me in a 3.5 game.

[Kaleph]

Thank all of you for your help. I scribbled down some ideas yesterday, it only took 1 hour or so - so I saved it and I'll use it as baseline, in case someone will ask to play a pally in the future.

One last question: I've noticed that many recommended to boost smite evil as a possible fix. Now, I don't like too much smite evil, especially if it becomes a simple flat boost to damage. I prefer steely resolve, since it somehow merges the damage bonus with a tanky ability (basically ignore some injury for a round), but I'd admit it's not that special as well. I mean, the deal here is the +x to hit and damage, not the delayed injury after all. Is anyone of you knowing some tanky ability that may replace smite evil?

[Grod_The_Giant]

I mean, you could replace it with the Knight's Challenge, possibly souped up a bit to remove the glaring weaknesses, but I think the single big Smite is too much of a Paladin classic to lose.

[DEMON]

Is anyone of you knowing some tanky ability that may replace smite evil?

Some Rage variation.

Add Holy Fury (variation on Barbarian ACF Unholy Fury from EoE) for a smite evil 1x / rage.

Best of both worlds.