Succubi NPCs and avoiding cringe.

[NOhara24]

Hello Playground,

Due to events in the campaign, my players will soon find themselves in Pazunia - more specifically I anticipate them heading to Broken Reach. According to Fiendish Codex I, creator of Broken Reach is a Succubus named Red Shroud.

Now, I create this thread only because of the horribly obvious missteps that both players and DMs can make when it comes to playing a Succubus or having a Succubus NPC. (Players: I'm going to have sex with everything, whether they like it or not. DMs: You're going to have sex with this NPC, whether you like it or not.)

Part of my dilemma is this, despite a high level of maturity of my table I still feel like describing the flavor of a Succubus has been so stigmatized that it's an automatic level of cringe that will be palpable immediately. There's no way the players won't realize "Ooh! This is a sex demon!" to avoid this, I'm thinking the following...

I will play this NPC as follows:

-There will be no unprovoked attempts at seduction for the purposes of carnal activities, and consent will be at the forefront of her mind. To gain favor she may use an SLA in conversation, but just because she's using charm monster doesn't mean that clothes are coming off - which is how the spell works anyway. The way I see it is that Red Shroud is a busy woman, and she's got better things to do than nail every traveler that comes by.

-Her appearance will be traditionally seductive, but not "too far". Think an office secretary showing cleavage vs a stripper wearing a schoolgirl uniform.

Can anyone else think of anything?

[Psyren]

Your suggestion of keeping her too preoccupied/unimpressed to really WANT to bang seems sufficient. Do you feel that won't work? If so, why?

Remember also that succubi are perfectly fine with just kissing and caressing, since those activities let them drain levels too. So even if things get physical you can keep it "over the clothes" so to speak - she can be flirty and peck a PC's cheek, forcing a fort save as normal.

[JNAProductions]

Talk to your players. See what they're comfortable with, and obey those limitations.

Other than that, seems like you got a good plan. Succubus does not equal automatic seduction. Perhaps have her be a bit handsy (hugs, kisses on the cheeks, stuff like that) but yeah. She's an important lady-the adventurers need to prove they're even worth her time.

[Scots Dragon]

You could go in a less restrained direction that turns down the 'sexiness' and plays up the more horror aspects of what she is. Remember that a succubus is a chaotic evil demon who uses sex as a tool to further her own ends rather than concerned with sexuality as such, and it's therefore far more likely that there'll be a bunch of cenobite-style stuff going on around her that doesn't need to be played for tittilation and can instead be played as horror element. The succubus wouldn't need to seduce the party members because ultimately she's already in charge there.

If she does try to seduce the party members, it'll be for a specific reason, such as tempting them into doing tasks for her.

[Zanos]

Yeah, sexy demons is pretty much automatic cringe. I immediately prep for a magical realm session whenever I see one. Acknowledging that it's cringey is good, though.


consent will be at the forefront of her mind.
Considering Succubi are horribly evil incarnations of the worst aspects of sexuality I see no reason for this to be the case. Avoiding screwing the PCs is a good idea, though.

[Kitsuneymg]

So have another bigger, meaner demon kill and overthrow Red Shroud before the PCs get there. Or change the setting so Red Shroud is some other type of creature.

[Gildedragon]

Emphasize other aspects of debauched sensuality:
Banquet of the flesh of sentient beings, slaves pulling her chariot-chaise lounge hybrid, an organ that turns the screams of the damned into quite pleasing music...

Ways to initiate physical contact: sucubus servants help disarm the heroes, and pat them down for concealed arms. "No weapons in the mistress's presence; this is a palace of peace"
Have the sucubbi offer healing and other beneficial touch spells.
Finger food served at the center, hands may brush against each other
Fortune telling via palm reading

Dressing the sucubbus modestly makes sense. Clothes that suggest everything and reveal nothing...
her underlings probably similarly atired. Possibly using their wings as a cape that hides their figure.

Heck, she might even be "do not touch our guests... unless they ask for it"

She seems to enjoy poisons: has some Ambrosia or other pleasure creating elixirs to offer the PCs.
Candles fill the rooms with Int or Wis damaging smoke...

[Telonius]

For a Succubus (as opposed to a Pleasure Devil) it's all about desire - her own desire, pursued without regard to anyone else around her. For Pleasure Devils (as lawful creatures), consent is at the forefront. They don't get credit for the soul if it isn't by the books. For Succubi, it's more incidental - nice if it's there, but not really all that necessary if it isn't. If a succubus in charge of a realm comes into contact with the players at all, the first thing that crosses her mind is, "How can I use them to get what I want?" For most lower-leveled succubi that might be something as simple as sex, but for one that's risen to that level of power there's more to it than that. My suggestion for her motivation: she wants to be worshiped by everybody around her. Sex is one of her tools to get that, but not the only (or even the most important) one.

[hamishspence]

Broken Reach could be thought of as a luxury hotel the size of a small city (or a small city dominated by luxury hotels) - with her as its mayor/owner.

In which case, she could be played like a "powerful businesswoman" first and foremost.

Going by her description in FC1 and Savage Tide, her preferred form of enjoyment is making and using poisons. Her throne room might have a few test subjects on display.

[NOhara24]

Your suggestion of keeping her too preoccupied/unimpressed to really WANT to bang seems sufficient. Do you feel that won't work? If so, why?

I think it will work - but I just want to make sure I've got all my bases covered. I'm keeping the conversation open so if someone chimes in and says "THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I DID WHEN I HAD A SUCCUBUS IN MY CAMPAIGN AND IT WAS 10/10." then I can take some notes.


Remember also that succubi are perfectly fine with just kissing and caressing, since those activities let them drain levels too. So even if things get physical you can keep it "over the clothes" so to speak - she can be flirty and peck a PC's cheek, forcing a fort save as normal.

I didn't even think about that - that's delightfully evil. It can be exactly as JNA said, totally non-hostile and then BAM! Fort save! This is why I ask the playground about this kind of stuff.



Talk to your players. See what they're comfortable with, and obey those limitations.

Other than that, seems like you got a good plan. Succubus does not equal automatic seduction. Perhaps have her be a bit handsy (hugs, kisses on the cheeks, stuff like that) but yeah. She's an important lady-the adventurers need to prove they're even worth her time.

I'll definitely be using the handsy bit - nothing wrong with being flirty. As it's been pointed out above, greeting a couple people in the party with a kiss on the cheek would be a clever bit of DMing :)

[Nifft]

Succubi want to corrupt mortals.

They use deception and sex for this purpose.

But they're not human: they don't actually care about sex.

Play this right, and you can have an even-more-disturbing session, where the players see "behind the curtain" and understand a little bit more about the nature of evil.

[Tiri]

Succubi want to corrupt mortals.

They use deception and sex for this purpose.

But they're not human: they don't actually care about sex.

Play this right, and you can have an even-more-disturbing session, where the players see "behind the curtain" and understand a little bit more about the nature of evil.

Well, that's not necessarily the case. You don't have to be a good human to care about sex. Not that you can't do some disturbing things with succubi, of course, but that doesn't preclude their caring about sex any more or less than any other creature that can have sex.

[Gildedragon]

Do succubi use the level drain to feed?
If so one could conceivably imagine a dungeon where mortals are milked for their life energy. Restoration cast on them via a spell clock or the like.

Distilled Joy is also used on them to pay for magic items, thrill guests, etc...

No mortal is taken against their will to the dungeons, but once there it is exceedingly hard to get out. (Note: you could have a Devil general from the blood war there, a nice beefy source of life energy for the succubi and a show of her power and don't-****-with-me-ness)

The PCs naturally aren't shown to the "farm" but if they go wandering alone they may find it; the heart of the labyrinth.

The "safe" oasis reputation attracts mortals; the steady food source secures Red Shroud's power base among succubi.

For info one could see her having some scholar from ancient times brought up... eager to give all manner of information for a touch from their captors.

[Braininthejar2]

Well, even in the Abyss, you can't really have a working inn if you keep abusing your customers, can you? Everyone there is chaotic and evil, but they need to show some level of civility, because you never know whose toes you might step on.

[hamishspence]

Yup. Indeed, Red Shroud is described as being extremely touchy about violence within Broken Reach, deputising anyone nearby to suppress it.

Broken Reach could be thought of as a "point of light" within the darkness that is the Abyss - not safe, but vastly safer than almost anywhere else. A good place to stay, and stock up before launching an expedition, or to return to, for more stock, and recovery.

[NomGarret]

Don't forget all the other things that can seduce people. That portrait on the wall? It's a wrongly-deposed duke she helped return to power. Cue the insinuation she can do the same for others. Bonus points if that's a PC backstory.

Or how about this: it's less gothic bordello and more the multiverse's best, and simultaneously creepiest, bed and breakfast? She's just the queen of hospitality who greets everyone with a hug, and gosh darn it if she doesn't make the tastiest nomfruit pie? Now, anyone with a decent knowledge check will tell you that the cultivation of nomfruit is both economically and physically brutal to the growers, as well as ecologically inexcusable. Yet it's still so tasty.

[Braininthejar2]

Don't forget all the other things that can seduce people. That portrait on the wall? It's a wrongly-deposed duke she helped return to power. Cue the insinuation she can do the same for others. Bonus points if that's a PC backstory.

Or how about this: it's less gothic bordello and more the multiverse's best, and simultaneously creepiest, bed and breakfast? She's just the queen of hospitality who greets everyone with a hug, and gosh darn it if she doesn't make the tastiest nomfruit pie? Now, anyone with a decent knowledge check will tell you that the cultivation of nomfruit is both economically and physically brutal to the growers, as well as ecologically inexcusable. Yet it's still so tasty.

Kind of like Big Mom in One Piece? Doing good things because that's what she's decided she would do, but doing them in a horrible way, because she's chaotic evil?

[Braininthejar2]

I wonder what is her secret to keeping her business going. It seems quite lucrative, and in the Abyss you can only keep what you have the power to defend...

[hamishspence]

Biffco Hotel from Back to the Future II might be an alternative - luxurious yet tasteless.

[Kantaki]

I wonder what is her secret to keeping her business going. It seems quite lucrative, and in the Abyss you can only keep what you have the power to defend...

Enough (powerful) people- in a pretty all-encompassing sense of the word -willing to protect the place I would guess*.
In addition to whatever power she and her staff have access too.

*For various reasons. Some might want to keep the safe-ish haven (adventurers for example), others might owe her for whatever reason, then there is the fact that even CE-incarnate folks should recognise the need for a neutral-ish meeting place, the place might hold secrets that better stay secret**, then there might be those who would use the opportunity to strike against a distracted foe...
Attacking this place could easiely more trouble that it is worse.

**It is a inn after all. People meet, people drink (or something), people talk and the walls have ears...

[NOhara24]

I wonder what is her secret to keeping her business going. It seems quite lucrative, and in the Abyss you can only keep what you have the power to defend...

According to FC1 she absolutely abhors violence on-premises, and will readily deputize whomever she can to snuff it out, both nearby and in the reach.

[hamishspence]

It's not so much an inn, as a whole (small) city - but most of the city is devoted to luxurious accommodation.

Her other business - poison development and manufacture, may be another reason why Broken Reach thrives.

[Braininthejar2]

Most of her customers would be immune to poison by default. And she's no Sinmaker. So, they won't be using it ginst each other or in the Blood War. So who does she sell to?

[Psyren]

Most of her customers would be immune to poison by default. And she's no Sinmaker. So, they won't be using it ginst each other or in the Blood War. So who does she sell to?

Her customers may be immune, but their targets often wouldn't be. Not in the Blood War as you mentioned, but plenty of demons plan on heading upstairs too.

[Remuko]

**It is a inn after all. People meet, people drink (or something), people talk and the walls have ears...

Maybe literally!

[Âmesang]

Any chance she's a potent enough poisoncrafter to have the Epic Poisoncrafter feat? Having it would enable her to craft "antimagic poisons" that would ignore magical and supernatural resistances/immunities to poison.


Remember also that succubi are perfectly fine with just kissing and caressing, since those activities let them drain levels too. So even if things get physical you can keep it "over the clothes" so to speak - she can be flirty and peck a PC's cheek, forcing a fort save as normal.
Had she had a chance to come into play I had plans on having a succubus behave a bit more… well, subtle's not the right word, but she would have been the type to purposely trip over herself in order to fall into the hero's big, strong arms… curl up and snuggle in a playfully "shy" or "drunkenly stupored" manner… an over abundance of blushing whilst either "apologizing" for her behavior or giggling stupidly… all to find the perfect (and hopefully not too obvious) chance to plant a kiss on said hero.

…come to think of it, and granted this probably wouldn't work in the Abyss, but… wouldn't it make some sense to have a succubus not be overtly sexual and perhaps play up an innocent facade; like, for example, having a succubus dress and behave as a perfectly chaste maiden, acting almost apprehensive …and, thus, giving the target the chance of making the first move.


Or how about this: it's less gothic bordello and more the multiverse's best, and simultaneously creepiest, bed and breakfast? She's just the queen of hospitality who greets everyone with a hug, and gosh darn it if she doesn't make the tastiest nomfruit pie? Now, anyone with a decent knowledge check will tell you that the cultivation of nomfruit is both economically and physically brutal to the growers, as well as ecologically inexcusable. Yet it's still so tasty.
…and now I want a succubus with a Minnesotan accent, don'cha'know? :smalltongue:

[Braininthejar2]

Any chance she's a potent enough poisoncrafter to have the Epic Poisoncrafter feat? Having it would enable her to craft "antimagic poisons" that would ignore magical and supernatural resistances/immunities to poison.

That's the kind of stuff Sinmaker makes. And his customers brave the toxic jungles of Carceri to get his stuff. He wouldn't see any if he had competition on this level just sitting in some town on the first layer.

[TheFurith]

Probably best to have her busy, and disinterested. Don't need to necessarily have her be somebody the deal with directly at all really. Should they go out of their way to try to hook up with her, you can simply find a way to inform them that they aren't likely going to have a good time. Something along the lines of, "They're still trying to clean up the mess she made of the last group. Haven't found all the pieces of them either." Doesn't sound like fun.

I mean, she is a demon after all.

[BaronDoctor]

Far as why it's able to stick around, being a "Rick's Cafe In Casablanca" or McAnally's (Dresden Files) sort of thing would make sense. Accorded Neutral Ground, where people can meet and talk, protected by the fact that anybody who breaks the rules tends to be broken in turn.

Being handsy and playing up "good things for bad reasons" could work nicely as well.

Bard levels for things like Modify Memory, Doomspeak, and other shenanigans could work nicely. People get drawn in because she's such a good performer (maybe she's got a golden fiddle :smallwink:). Go more for the Geisha shtick instead of bordello madam.

Maybe secretly a self-serving narcissist who thinks she's got the Abyss wrapped around her finger, pull a little lever here and push a button there...

Which is to say, she's got blackmail and leverage on EVERYONE.

[Eldan]

The few times Red Shroud shows up in adventures and such, she's quite businesslike. In a brutal, demonish mafia don (donna?) kind of way. She manages to keep her domain peaceful enough that it's a trade post in the Abyss for off-planars. She's also a skilled general, feared poisoner and assassin and an excellent spymaster. I'd say she's above cheap displays of seduction.

Edit: and yeah, she absolutely can poison demons. It's very strongly hinted at that she gave her consort and former ruler permanent brain damage so he couldn't rule and she assassinated a few other wanna-be demon lords who tried to take her domain that way.

[Eldan]

After quickly going over her section in Planes of Chaos: the thing to remember is that both the city and its rulers are dangerous with a capital ANGER. Red Shroud will absolutely have people murdered if they annoy her. Such as by being rude, or wearing the wrong colour. Broken Reach devours the weak and breaks the strong, to paraphrase the text. It's comparatively safe, but that's compared to the lovecraftian insane horrors of the deeper Abyss.

Also: there's nothing to say that the players actually have to meet Red Shroud. She's ruled the place for 200 years. She's a political figure and quite rich. The Fated and the Bleak Cabal court her. She has won against invasions of five planar powers. She may just be too busy to care about some random adventurers.