Where do I go with this Ranger?

[The Ship's dog]

So I've been remaking a character from the ground up at level 5, and I wanted to try out the Revised Ranger (DM is allowing it), but I'm having a bit of trouble figuring out where I want to go with it from level 5. I want it to be a Strength based but stealthy character, I'm using Javelins and a Pike reskinned as a battle Harpoon for fluff reasons. This is what I've got so far:

Variant Human
Sailor background

Str: 16
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 8

Spells: (Level 1) Absorb Elements, Cure Wounds, Hunter's Mark (Level 2) Pass Without Trace

Feats: Great Weapon Master, Medium Armour Master

I'm not sure about the feats, seeing as I won't be taking real advantage of the extra AC from Dex unless I put a +2 into Dex and give up on a feat, but getting rid of the disadvantage on stealth is really useful for my sneaky theme. I've never used GWM before and so I'm keen to try it out, but I realise it isn't especially needed. I want to MC as Rogue for the BA Hide as well as the opportunity for some juicy Assassinate and Sneak Attack damage. Also Expertise. But then I would need to bump Wis to 13 at least somehow.

I know this isn't optimised at all, but I want to know what you people would do with this and given the restrictions placed.

[Corran]

Vuman, Ranger (deep stalker) 13/ Rogue (assassin) 3/ (plus 4 more levels to use as you like*)

*I would avoid more ranger levels, to avoid additional overlap of ranger feature (in this case, vanish, with cunning action. More rogue levels for uncanny dodge and evasion, or even a fighter dip, are both good ideas).
Deept stalker cause it has the best features for a GWM (and also that wis save prof is delicious! So is greater invisibility for a GWM, even moreso due to having cunning action to hide s a bonus action).
Vhuman cause since darkstalker gives you darkvision you dont really needa race that provides it, so you should aim for the feat.

STR 16, DEX 14, CON 15, INT 8, WIS 12, CHA 8
Feats: GWM, Observant, Resilient con, str bumps

Not sure if these are the best choices, but I would do sth like that...

[Khrysaes]

Vuman, Ranger (deep stalker) 13/ Rogue (assassin) 3/ (plus 4 more levels to use as you like*)

*I would avoid more ranger levels, to avoid additional overlap of ranger feature (in this case, vanish, with cunning action. More rogue levels for uncanny dodge and evasion, or even a fighter dip, are both good ideas).
Deept stalker cause it has the best features for a GWM (and also that wis save prof is delicious! So is greater invisibility for a GWM, even moreso due to having cunning action to hide s a bonus action).
Vhuman cause since darkstalker gives you darkvision you dont really needa race that provides it, so you should aim for the feat.

STR 16, DEX 14, CON 15, INT 8, WIS 12, CHA 8
Feats: GWM, Observant, Resilient con, str bumps

Not sure if these are the best choices, but I would do sth like that...

I agree with this. Fighter or Rogue is a wonderful Idea. If you haven't started yet you could consider taking fighter as your "first" level, to get proficiency in Con instead of Dex, if you want.

The revised ranger has overlap with the Rogue's cunning action at level 8 with Fleet of Foot too. Anything past that is really up to you if you want it, mostly the ranger gets spells. Deep stalker gets Wisdom save proficiency at level 7.

[chando]

I would keep Medium Armour Master as if you want to be sneaky, it means going from breatplate to half-plate, so its a +1AC right there. Also opens up any Magical Scale armor you find, and is very much in theme. If you ever find a magic item that bumps that Dex up

Deep Stalker is pretty great, especially if going for assassinate.
I agree that Observant is a great feat and a great way to bump that Wis to 13 if you really want to multiclass, but I would consider that you do gain Hide as a bonus action from the revised ranger i think, and greater invisibility eventually. The SA+2d6 its only once/turn, doesn't work with pikes or javelins. Assassinate means on round one, you are making 3 ranged critical attacks for say 2d4+4d6+3 and +4d6+6 from a dagger and two javelins. Or make three critical attacks with your pike, no SA. or dagger throw two pike attacks i guess.
But that trick is one round. if ou get the drop on your enemy (DM reliance). and you're using multiple wepons, very likely not all will be magical or optimal.
Costs you one feat that could have been a +2 Str right away and three levels of your ranger casting dalay. There are other benefits of going Rogue, but if you were already using finesse weapons would have been a better choice. although you could just use a rapier and fluff however you wanted, but that doesnt get GWM, so I would probably sub that out with Observant to take Rogue levels rigth after Ranger 5. Or take Figther 2-3-4 as well. and once you have the Wis 13 for multiclassing, a couple Cleric levels could also work for a nice channel divinity and great spells, and whatever domain you fancy.
Considering deep stalkers benefits and the damage of the GWM, you could just keep going ranger and uping Str.

Think about what buffs do you want to run. Hunter's marks + attacks seems fine, no need for much ranger. nobody runing bless already, maybe take a cleric dip. Greater Invisibility seems like an awesome FU to your DM, go for it.

hope that helps

[Specter]

1) Go full ranger
Definitely nothing wrong with that. Until level 12, you'll get all you really need. I personally recommend Hunter for Escape the Horde, to get to where you want in the field without much complication, and Whirlwind Attack, but Deep Stalker can work well too. The main advantage of this is not needing to boost WIS any further (pick spells with no saves associated, and keep one for AoE like Conjure Barrage or Lightning Arrow).

2) Multiclass into fighter
Boost your WIS to 14 at level 8, and then jump to Fighter for no more than 4 levels. Any archetype is good, really: Champion gives you more GWM bonus attacks, Battlemaster gives you maneuvers, and Eldritch Knight gives you Shield, a familiar and some cantrips.

3) Multiclass into rogue
Boost your WIS to 14 at level 8, and then jump into Rogue. This is what I consider the worst option, unless it's only for one level (for Expertise). Sneak Attack won't apply to your big weapon anyway.

4) Multiclass into cleric
Boost your WIS to 14 at level 8, and then go Cleric ftw. The one I'm thinking of is War for some bonus actions attacks, +10 to hit and Divine Favor (when you face many opponents instead of one, in which case you would use Hunter's Mark). But you may to heal (Life) or be smart (Knowledge) or rock some lightning (Tempest), in which case feel free.

[DivisibleByZero]

Wis 12
No multiclassing allowed unless the DM waives the reqs. If he doesn't waive the reqs, you're stuck with Ranger through level 8, and then you need to bump that Wis up with your ASI.

[sir_argo]

Just a quick question... do Rangers get Healing Word? I ask because according to the PHB they don't. Was there an errata or did you get it through another means?

[Corran]

Thinking about it a bit more, I would say that 3 levels of rogue (for assassinate) are not really worth the investment. That's because the bulk of your assassinate damage will come from static modifiers, which dont get doubled on crits. But because of the advanatge on your first turn (natural explorer) and also because of GWM, I would say that 2 levels in fighter (for action surge) would definitely be worth it. So is one level of rogue, for expertise on stealth, to keep your stealth high despite an ''ok'' dex score and to make the most of your underdark scout feature (deep stalker, revised ranger) which does not allow you to be spotted by creatures that have darkvision when you are hiding in the dark.

Action surge + GWM + natural explorer (advantage) + underdark scout (additional attack), will give you a good approximation to assassination damage (and it gets even better once you get stalker's flurry @ranger11).
That the most reliable version of ''assassin'', as it doesn't matter if your group is stealthy or not. Besides, this way (by taking only 1 rogue level), you dont have any overlap between your ranger's features and cunning action (since you didnt take the latter), and you minimize the sneak attack damage going to waste (just 1d6) because you are wielding a greatsword/maul/greataxe which is not a finese weapon. You mainly dip for the expertise in stealth (which is very much needed since your dex will be at 14 -dont boost it for whatever reason!-), but one more expertise, thieves' cant and one more skill are good side benefits too. I would definitely take that rogue level before investing 2 levels in fighter, and after I had taken extra attack from ranger, because I value stealth more than more damage in the first round of combat (via action surge). Stealth brings quite an amount of utility/versatiity.

Action surge (and the side benefits of second wind and an additional fighting style) from fighter 2, is also a very important feature, since you can use it during your first round and do the aforementoned combination of (copy paste: Action surge + GWM + natural explorer (advantage) + underdark scout (additional attack), will give you a good approximation to assassination damage (and it gets even better once you get stalker's flurry @ranger11).
A 3rd level in battlemaster for maneuvres could be very helpfull for your GWM'ing too, but personally I would delay it and I wouldnt take that 3rd level in fighter before hitting ranger14/rogue1/fighter2. That's because I like the ranger (stalker) features too much (features like wis save prof, stalker's flurry, greater invisibility, vanish, etc).

Conclusion?
Ranger (deep stalker) 14/ Rogue 1/ Fighter 2, as a minimum (that covers 17 character levels, you have 3 more levels to spend as you like if the game goes further than that -unlikely in most cases-; More ranger and perhaps 1 additional fighter level would be a good way to go about it).

Vhuman for race for the feat, as I said previously (you get darkvision from deep stalker).
Feats: Mostly what I said before, ie GWM, str bumps, perhaps even observant too (especially if you want start with a wisdom of 12), and perhaps even resilient con (if you dont start as a fighter, but you can have resilient con wait a bit, it will be important to be proficient in con saves when you eventually get access to greater invisibility at ranger 13).
Spells: There are plenty of good ranger spells of which I dont know much to tell, but the big prize imo is how you can combine greater invisibility with GWM and vanish (bonus action hide -ding ding ding, expertise in stealth by then for sure).

Dont
- (DONT) Take medium armor master
- (DONT) Bump dex
- (DONT) Bump wisdom (unless with a half feat like observant to meet multiclassing requirements) -Not 100% sure about this suggestion, I might like observant a bit too much...


Stats
STR: You want to start with a 16 here. No less.
DEX: 14. Dont raise it, let expertise stealth do your work.
CON: Personally I would start with a 15 here, so when I take resilient I can bump it to 16. But if you start as a fighter, which means con save prof but also delayed extra attack, delayed stealth expertise, etc), you will want either a 14.
INT: 8 is enough, optimization wise.
WIS: Depends on what you will do with constitution, thus depends on if you will plan for resilient con or not in your build. I would personally. Eventually you will want at least a 13 in order to multiclass.
CHA: 8 is enough optimization wise. If you want to be socially relevant, use your second expertise from rogue to boost your prefered charisma skill (though athletics provides some serious competition too).

So, depending on if you go for resilient con or not, you have two choices:

A.Resilient con build (starting as a ranger)
STR 16, DEX 14 CON 15, INT 8, WIS 12, CHA 8 (starting stats)
-use reilient con, observant and 2 str bumps for STR 20, DEX 14, CON 16, INT 8, WIS 13, CHA 8 (final stats)/

B.Build without resilient con (probably starting as a fighter)

1) STR 16, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 9, WIS 13, CHA 8 (starting stats, you can swap int & cha scores)
In the above scenario you dont need resilient con and observant, so that's you least feat dependent build.

Or

2) STR 16, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 12, CHA 8 (starting stats, you can swap int and cha scores)
This is for if you dont want to have an 8 in both int and cha, but you will have to take observant (or a +2 wis; I prefer observant).


Progression
Regardless of if you start as a fighter or a ranger (see stats above for this), you will want to aim for ranger 5 (extra attack) asap, and after extra attack, I would sugggest taking the rogue level (for expertise in stealth) immediately after extra attack (ie ranger 5).

So, if you started as a fighter, the progression up to this point is: fighter 1 --> fighter 1/ ranger 5 --> fighter 1/ ranger 5/ rogue 1 --> fighter 2/ ranger 5/ rogue 1.

While if you started as a ranger, the progression up to this point is: ranger 5 --> ranger 5/ rogue 1 (after that, decide if you want to get 2 fighter levels or if you want to rush the rest useful ranger features; not an easy choice to make).

------------------------------------------------
ps: The weak point of such a build is the AC. If it becomes too much of a problem staying on the frontline, you might want to take a second level in rogue for cunning action (disengage), and try to play more like a GWM skirmisher. In that case, aim for ranger5/rogue2 (or fighter1/ranger5/rogue2 if starting as a fighter) asap. Obviously extra attack takes priority, but right after that your priority will be cunning action (nabing expertised stealth along the way). In that case (2 rogue levels), cap your ranger levels at 13, to avoid additional overlap between cunning action and vanish.

ps2:This old thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?500879-GWM-deep-stalker-ranger-%28how%29-would-you-do-it) might be of some help. So will the ranger guides that have updated with the revised ranger info.

[The Ship's dog]

Wow, all of this is really great advice and I thank you all for it! This is what I've got planned out taking all of this advice into account:

Because many of you seem to agree that GWM is actually quite a good idea, I'm keeping it. I'm also keeping MAM, as it allows me to not worry about AC when sneaking around as I will actually have access to good armour without have stealth disadvantage. I'm going to go Deep Stalker for another 3 levels, taking the Observant Feat, and then going Rogue 1 for expertise and Fighter 2 for Action Surge + GWF (I already have Mariner for my current Fighting Style). The rest will be going into Ranger for a final build of Deep Stalker Ranger 17/ Rogue 1/ Fighter 2

[DivisibleByZero]

Because many of you seem to agree that GWM is actually quite a good idea, I'm keeping it. I'm also keeping MAM, as it allows me to not worry about AC when sneaking around as I will actually have access to good armour without have stealth disadvantage. I'm going to go Deep Stalker for another 3 levels, taking the Observant Feat, and then going Rogue 1 for expertise and Fighter 2 for Action Surge + GWF (I already have Mariner for my current Fighting Style). The rest will be going into Ranger for a final build of Deep Stalker Ranger 17/ Rogue 1/ Fighter 2

Has your DM waived the multiclass requirements, then? Because, as I have said, you can't multiclass a Ranger with a 12 Wisdom. You need a 13. So if he hasn't waived them, then you need to boost Wis at 8, not take the Observant feat.

[djreynolds]

I would, after adjusting wisdom to 13, grab barbarian. Reckless attack, gwm and horde breaker would work well together.

But deep stalker and barbarian could mesh well.... rage is a bonus action away when needed.

[The Ship's dog]

Has your DM waived the multiclass requirements, then? Because, as I have said, you can't multiclass a Ranger with a 12 Wisdom. You need a 13. So if he hasn't waived them, then you need to boost Wis at 8, not take the Observant feat.

I have 12 Wisdom, you can raise your Intelligence or Wisdom scores by 1 with the Observant feat, which means I would have 13 Wisdom, meaning I could multiclass.



I would, after adjusting wisdom to 13, grab barbarian. Reckless attack, gwm and horde breaker would work well together.

But deep stalker and barbarian could mesh well.... rage is a bonus action away when needed.

I was thinking about picking up Barbarian, but I'm not sure, there are just too many spells and things that I want to keep being able to use. Perhaps I could swap out the Fighter levels for Barbarian, but the prospect of getting Action Surge is a hard one to forget about.

If I am to go Fighter 2, I will get: Fighting Style (GWF most likely), Second Wind, Action Surge.

If I am to go Barbarian 2, I will get:
Rage, Unarmoured Defense (not useful to me), Reckless Attack, Danger Sense

Now, Reckless Attack would work really well with the Underdark Scout feature, Rage would also. Unfortunately, you can't concentrate on spells when Raging, so HM is off the tables. Because HM damage is on average better than the Rage damage, I probably would not use Rage much unless I was tanking, and so I'm pretty much only going Barbarian for Reckless Attack.

The question is, is Reckless attack worth takin instead of Action Surge?

[DivisibleByZero]

Ah, I forgot it was an half feat.

[The Ship's dog]

Ah, I forgot it was an half feat.

No problem, I was AFB when I started this thread and so I mixed up Cure Wounds and Healing Word when choosing spells.

[GlenSmash!]

The question is, is Reckless attack worth takin instead of Action Surge?

Either would work fine, but to me Reckless Attack is worth taking over Action surge for this type of character, but only by a small margin.

Action Surge is super great. Really great even, but it's limited in how many times you can use it.

Reckless Attack you can use every turn if you want to. Plus you can mitigate the drawback by taking the Mobile Feat. Reckless Attack your enemies for great GWM damage, then retreat from them without provoking opportunity attacks (which they would have had advantage on) due to Mobile. This works even better over difficult terrain since it would slow your enemies down but not you. So something like casting Spike Growth could be super helpful.

Rage is something I would only use if I had already lost concentration on Hunter's mark.

[djreynolds]

Reckless attack and GWM is awesome. Killing first is awesome.

You can recklessly attack without raging, risky but can be done.

I often pair eldritch knight and barbarian, I recklessly attack (not raging) and spam the shield spell as my reaction.

[GlenSmash!]

Reckless attack and GWM is awesome. Killing first is awesome.

You can recklessly attack without raging, risky but can be done.

I often pair eldritch knight and barbarian, I recklessly attack (not raging) and spam the shield spell as my reaction.

Solid strategy. I have a Grappler barbarian that wields a Rapier so he can do the same thing with Defensive Duelist, Not that many things can hit him when they are grappled and prone.