D&D Lore - Lady of Pain and the Language Primeval?

[lbuttitta]

Just as the title says: who is the Lady of Pain, what is the Language Primeval, and what is the trivia and lore behind them?

[Gildedragon]

The Lady of Pain is the supreme and absolute mistress of the interplanar cosmopolis of Sigil, The City of Doors.
She seems incapable of going out of the city, and gods are incapable of going into it.
One of her signature abilities is using inescapable Mazes to punish those who displease her.
She earns her name from the fact that she is covered in knives.
Though immensely powerful, eternal, and all knowing within her city, she is most absolutely not a god. And don't even think of suggesting she is, otherwise... Well the words "spontaneous chunky salsa" come to mind

[Eldan]

The Lady:

Out of game: Out of game, she is a somewhat clunky explanation for an ingame fact. Sigil is a metropolis in the middle of the planes with gates that connect everywhere. Yes, everywhere. Even other game worlds. Even worlds that aren't D&D. So why isn't everyone constantly fighting over it?
Because there's an immensely powerful being overseeing it's neutrality.
She's not there to be fought by the players or anything. She's a pure background plot device.

What she looks like: an enormous, robed woman floating in the air, her face surrounded by a halo of metal blades.

What she does: Not much, actually, day to day. There's a few simple rules she enforces:
1) No gods. (This likely extends to similarly powerful beings, i.e. archfiends, primevals, archomentals, etc.). They can't enter the city, ever.
2) No open warfare. Skirmishes, yes,
3) No worship of the Lady. She may not be worshipped as a god, on pain of death.
4) Though not entirely certain, it seems she kills off members of any groups that get too powerful and might unbalance the city. If so, she does it subtly.

How she does it:
She expresses her displeasure in three ways: gods and similar simply can't enter the city. She controls all portals into and out of the city, which are the only way to get in. If she doesn't want you there, you won't find a portal.
Mazes. As a "mild" sign of displeasure, you may be thrown into your personal gigantic, extraplanar maze. These have exits, theoretically, but only a handful of people ever got out.
Death. Her shadow, if it falls on anything alive (or otherwise animate), will slice that thing apart like giant, rapidly moving knives, removing it to a bloody smear.

How she acts: Her other official title is Her Serenity. She never speaks, though occasionally her servants proclaim decrees. (Well, twice so far in a few thousand years of city history). Her face doesn't seem to display emotion at all, it's been called mask-like. She occasionally seems angry and destructive, but even that she does slowly and deliberately.

Her greatest deed: once, a god seduced one of her followers away from her, maybe even tried to take over the city. His temple is now a giant crater and said god is a corpse floating on the astral plane, pierced by colossal blades.

Most importantly, she is mysterious. The game never tells us what she is, what she wants, how she does it. What are the limits of her powers? No one knows. Can she kill gods again? No one knows. If she is worshipped secretly, would she know? Know one knows (but few would risk it). Do her powers extend outside the city? Probably not but again, no one knows.

[thorr-kan]

Source for Language Primeval? That's a new one for me.

[Waker]

She is a group of six giant squirrels—possessed of a headdress, a robe, and a ring of levitation.
But if you really want to get educated on all things planar, you should try to perform a summoning of afrokuma. Planar knowledge is in his portfolio.

[Eldan]

Heresy! She's three giant squirrels.

[Psyren]

The only "language primeval" I can think of would be the Words of Creation, i.e. truespeak.

[Waker]

Heresy! She's three giant squirrels.

It can't be heresy. We're not supposed to worship her, cause if we did she'd banish us to a Maze or shadowflay us.

[denthor]

In Norse mythology the lady of pain was a minor goddess.

In the D&D 2nd edition she was written up as if you attacked her you would relive the worst pain you ever experienced.

If you got hit with a 50 point fireball. You took that damage again.

[Florian]

Just as the title says: who is the Lady of Pain, what is the Language Primeval, and what is the trivia and lore behind them?

No lore on the Language.

[Gildedragon]

OP: By the language primeval dya mean the Pact Primeval or Words of Creation or Dark Speech?

[hamishspence]

In Norse mythology the lady of pain was a minor goddess.

D&D "real mythology-derived minor goddess" version still exists - Loviatar, from the Forgotten Realms. Finnish, rather than Norse.

The Planescape being, I think, is supposed to be a shout-out to Algernon Swinburne's "Dolores".

[BWR]

In the D&D 2nd edition she was written up as if you attacked her you would relive the worst pain you ever experienced.

If you got hit with a 50 point fireball. You took that damage again.

Source, please. I'll admit it's been a while since I read my (complete) PS collection but this does not ring a bell. All the other stuff about mazes and flayings and whatnot does.
And, yeah LoP was sorta based on Swinbourne's poem and has nothing to do with Loviatar, who is Finnish, not Norse.

[denthor]

Source, please. I'll admit it's been a while since I read my (complete) PS collection but this does not ring a bell. All the other stuff about mazes and flayings and whatnot does.
And, yeah LoP was sorta based on Swinbourne's poem and has nothing to do with Loviatar, who is Finnish, not Norse.

Deities and demigods cover is purple or blue with a golden man coming out of a rod choking a snake coming out of a rod.

If I remember I will be able to find the book Friday

[Zephonim]

The only living being to ever beat the Lady of Pain was a corpse. Vecna entered the city of doors and within became a god. This resulted in Vecna getting booted out of Sigil and the Lady of Pain herself rewriting the multiverse to the point that 2e became 3e. All according to Vecna's design wizards became gods

[Zephonim]

In Norse mythology the lady of pain was a minor goddess.

In the D&D 2nd edition she was written up as if you attacked her you would relive the worst pain you ever experienced.

If you got hit with a 50 point fireball. You took that damage again.

Afaik she usually turns you into chunky salsa or sends you into a maze to suffer eternally. Also she has no stats. Never been statted

[ATHATH]

The only living being to ever beat the Lady of Pain was a corpse. Vecna entered the city of doors and within became a god. This resulted in Vecna getting booted out of Sigil and the Lady of Pain herself rewriting the multiverse to the point that 2e became 3e. All according to Vecna's design wizards became gods
Shhhhhhh, we don't talk about that module. You know that feeling that you get when a movie about a certain franchise !@#$s up everything about the setting, characters, tone, etc. massively? Die, Vecna, Die! is that feeling in module form, made 3 times as bad because it messes up 3 settings at once. The writers of the module apparently didn't consult the creators of 2 of those settings to ensure that their stuff would mesh well with the settings that they were using.

Take what I say with a grain of salt, of course, since I've never actually played Die, Vecna, Die!, and most of my knowledge of it has been osmosed from forums and other similar sources.

[BWR]

Deities and demigods cover is purple or blue with a golden man coming out of a rod choking a snake coming out of a rod.

If I remember I will be able to find the book Friday

You're still thinking of Loviatar, who is not LoP (and she is listed under the Finnish pantheon).



Shhhhhhh, we don't talk about that module. You know that feeling that you get when a movie about a certain franchise !@#$s up everything about the setting, characters, tone, etc. massively? Die, Vecna, Die! is that feeling in module form, made 3 times as bad because it messes up 3 settings at once. The writers of the module apparently didn't consult the creators of 2 of those settings to ensure that their stuff would mesh well with the settings that they were using.

Take what I say with a grain of salt, of course, since I've never actually played Die, Vecna, Die!, and most of my knowledge of it has been osmosed from forums and other similar sources.

DVD is an abomination which blatantly ignored several hard rules and canon for various settings just because. To add insulting our intelligence to the injury done to Ravenloft and PS, it also has Vecna's Other Body Parts as minor artifacts because why not.

[Psyren]

The only living being to ever beat the Lady of Pain was a corpse. Vecna entered the city of doors and within became a god. This resulted in Vecna getting booted out of Sigil and the Lady of Pain herself rewriting the multiverse to the point that 2e became 3e. All according to Vecna's design wizards became gods

I always heard that players hated DVD but I didn't know why. That's hilarious!

[Mechalich]

The Lady of Pain is, additionally, a subject of and character in the novel Pages of Pain by Troy Denning which is...carefully vague...about a great deal of her features to the point of indicating that the Lady herself does not know anything about her origins, the nature of her capabilities, or even how and why she controls the dabus. It also positions her as the literal source of pain (as in the sensation) throughout the multiverse through invisible pods she attaches to beings traveling through Sigil that subsequently spread. In this capacity - which she considers her essential purpose - she is postulated as an essential feature of reality because the elimination of pain from existence would be terrible (you mileage with Troy Denning's personal moral philosophy may vary, a lot). It is also noted that the Lady perpetually walks through Sigil but is only visible when she steps off the cobbles and into the air, and that she has the power to unleash incredible amounts of destruction by apparently just tearing at reality but it's not entirely limitless - the Amnesian Hero's god-forged armor resists her assault briefly.

It's the same as all of Denning's other novels (take characters, torment liberally, observe outcome), but the setting and characters fit his distinctive shtick best.

[Florian]

I always heard that players hated DVD but I didn't know why. That's hilarious!

I played DVD! and I didn't get that feeling, quite the opposite. Same with the Bloodwar campaign and Faction Wars. I don´t know if people misremember Planescape, too much hearsay around or glorifying the old TSR times, but without that kind of campaign world shaking event, the setting would be nearly unplayable and staid.

@Mechalich:

Oh, that book....

[ngilop]

I agree with Florian here.

It was what the game needed to switch from 2nd to 3rd editions. a complete and utter overhaul.

For me, the lore on the settings did not get as wrecked from the 2nd to 3rd shift as they did from the 3rd to 4th edition shift ( like really wtf happened and Why?)

and I really have no idea what is going on between 4th and 5th cept its all about the sword coast now.... why? I HATE the sword coast every fregging square inch has been detailed.. but that is just me griping.. sorry.

[Florian]

It was what the game needed to switch from 2nd to 3rd editions. a complete and utter overhaul.

For me, the lore on the settings did not get as wrecked from the 2nd to 3rd shift as they did from the 3rd to 4th edition shift ( like really wtf happened and Why?)

Hm... how to phrase that?

Beginning with Planescape, the lore and how it got used were already in conflict. I think most of the authors didn't actually understand what they were doing, same as with the later BoVD and BoED.

Things like Dark Speech, the Language Primeval or the Lady of Pain didn't really fit as they´re very close to bog standard christian mythology, but don´t work with objective morality and how the power of believe should affect the Great Wheel. Let´s add the over-reliance on deities for everything and it gets worse.

In that, DVD! was one of the few modules to actually understand and pick up the theme of "change".

As for your personal gripe, look at how things changed and what directions they took. It´s always getting nearer a Heaven <> Hell dichotomy, which can´t explain why ascension of Asmodeus is a thing at all.

[lbuttitta]

Source for Language Primeval? That's a new one for me.
I think it was mentioned in the 2E adventure "Die, Vecna, Die!". I'm not sure of any other sources for it, but I know that the name, at least, is mentioned there.

[Eldan]

Ah. The Thing about Die, Vecna, Die... well, one of the things... is that it fits quite poorly into the established lore of anything else written in D&D.

Anyway, some googling brought up a thread on Planeswalker:


Here's how the Serpent is described in The Book of Eldritch Might II:

"The power of eldritch might stirs in the heart of the multiverse with an intelligence and a soul all its own. The most powerful arcanists know this and grow familiar with magic’s own mind and spirit. Some call it the Serpent, and others call it the Godmind or the Soulspark.Whatever they term it, they know it exists—even if they never speak that knowledge aloud." - Monte Cook

Here's The Epic Level Handbook:

"You’ve heard about spells that transcend the commonly understood arts, scribed in the margins of ancient tomes and whispered, among the acolytes of mageguilds. In various times and places, epic spells have been personified as “the Serpent,” codified as True Dweomers, and encoded as part of an ancient lore called the Language Primeval. Whether epic spells really are straight from the Serpent’s maddening whispers or are revealed to you over countless curious volumes of hidden lore, you are ready to grasp the ultimate level of mortal magic." - Bruce Cordell (probably)


So, apparently, it's a way to understand epic magic.

[thorr-kan]

I think it was mentioned in the 2E adventure "Die, Vecna, Die!". I'm not sure of any other sources for it, but I know that the name, at least, is mentioned there.
Reference to the Language Primeval seemed familiar. After some digging, I found the reference I was remembering!

The 2ED accessory College of Wizardry talks about the Language Primeval, called Aleph, in Chapter 5, p43. This accessory details the wizard's guild, the Arcane Order, which is later mentions in Complete Mage in the 3ED prestige class, Mage of the Arcane Order.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I saw this thread, did some googling because I was curious about why Die, Vecna, Die! was so bad, and found these tidbits about the Language Primeval:


The Lady of Pain is very powerful as she knows and can speak the Language Primeval (i.e. the same language as the Last Word from "Dead Gods")
She's confirmed as being one of the "Ancient Brethren". (Yes, this is the first I recall hearing about them as well.) From how I view it, the AB are the underlying forces of the multiverse; things like Magic, Death, etc. In other words, the Lady is the god/force/philosophy who *IS* Pain, as opposed to a god *OF* Pain
The Language Primeval was introduced in College of Magic, by Bruce Cordell. As I understand it, it's somewhat different from the True Words in Dead Gods, though I can understand Bruce Cordell trying to connect the two.

[khadgar567]

I saw this thread, did some googling because I was curious about why Die, Vecna, Die! was so bad, and found these tidbits about the Language Primeval:


The Lady of Pain is very powerful as she knows and can speak the Language Primeval (i.e. the same language as the Last Word from "Dead Gods")
She's confirmed as being one of the "Ancient Brethren". (Yes, this is the first I recall hearing about them as well.) From how I view it, the AB are the underlying forces of the multiverse; things like Magic, Death, etc. In other words, the Lady is the god/force/philosophy who *IS* Pain, as opposed to a god *OF* Pain
The Language Primeval was introduced in College of Magic, by Bruce Cordell. As I understand it, it's somewhat different from the True Words in Dead Gods, though I can understand Bruce Cordell trying to connect the two.


grod would you explain the third one in longer format like seperate post with ciations like writing essay for homework cuz i am intruged about it?

[Psyren]

This game has way too many One True Languages.

[Florian]

grod would you explain the third one in longer format like seperate post with ciations like writing essay for homework cuz i am intruged about it?

There´s nothing much to write, as with a lot of things, this is an unfinished stub. It´s kind of a "creation myth" apparently based on some being having said the words that brought the multiverse into being and the echo is still around a bit. The whole thing, as well as the "brethren" seems a bit like Gaiman´s "Endless" (Sandman).

[Braininthejar2]

This game has way too many One True Languages.

Well "atom" means "indivisible" doesn't it?

[Psyren]

Well "atom" means "indivisible" doesn't it?

I have no idea what you're getting at

[Âmesang]

…and to quote from Die, Venca, Die! (well, technically Vecna Reborn for the first):


"The Serpent speaks directly to Vecna. Others—daring to call themselves wizards, magicians, and sorcerers—manipulate the tiniest aspects of the Serpent and call it magic. But Vecna speaks to the Serpent, and the Serpent speaks back."

"Sometime during the span of years before his imprisonment, Vecna went to a lot of trouble secretly fabricating two tablets inscribed with a true dweomer in the Language Primeval. Then he buried them in a plausible archeological site. True dweomers represent 10th and higher level magic, and they can be understood and cast only by spellcasters of 20th level or higher. The Language Primeval, a surpassingly powerful magical grammar, was spoken by the Ancient Brethren, the Elders, and other semimythical races when all the worlds were young or yet unborn. As a confidant of the Serpent, Vecna has some knowledge of this purely magical tongue, and so he recorded a spell of uncommon power."

[Grod_The_Giant]

grod would you explain the third one in longer format like seperate post with ciations like writing essay for homework cuz i am intruged about it?
Unfortunately I cannot; what I posted was taken directly from a DVD review I found.

[Florian]

…and to quote from Die, Venca, Die! (well, technically Vecna Reborn for the first):

Ugh! Stuff like the "Serpent" redcon remind me why I like the redone PF Great Wheel a lot more than the original.

[lbuttitta]

This game has way too many One True Languages.
Agreed.
It leads you to wonder why the designers stuck in so many of them. Why not just make one and have done with it?

[Psyren]

…and to quote from Die, Venca, Die! (well, technically Vecna Reborn for the first):

Wow, that is some Star Trek levels of babble and wank to justify their Villain Sue's OP-ness

[Florian]

Wow, that is some Star Trek levels of babble and wank to justify their Villain Sue's OP-ness

The annoying part is having a "true source of evil" in the setting, which is unnecessary.

[Waker]

Wow, that is some Star Trek levels of babble and wank to justify their Villain Sue's OP-ness

What?! Just because Vecna is super smart and tricks all the gods and other superbeings doesn't make him Mary Sue. And sure, just cause he's BFFs with the source of evil and magic doesn't make him OP.
I also heard his phylactary is a katana.

[Psyren]

What?! Just because Vecna is super smart and tricks all the gods and other superbeings doesn't make him Mary Sue. And sure, just cause he's BFFs with the source of evil and magic doesn't make him OP.
I also heard his phylactary is a katana.

I hear he also teamed up with Deadpool to invade the Forgotten Realms, they both banged Mystra, Shar, and Sune simultaneously, then he beat up Ao and stole his lunch money before inventing 5e.

[Waker]

I hear he also teamed up with Deadpool to invade the Forgotten Realms, they both banged Mystra, Shar, and Sune simultaneously, then he beat up Ao and stole his lunch money before inventing 5e.

I mean, FR has broken the 4th wall before and is inundated with OP marysues, so I have no difficulty believing anything you just said.

[Psyren]

I mean, FR has broken the 4th wall before and is inundated with OP marysues, so I have no difficulty believing anything you just said.

Vecna would fit right in :smallbiggrin:

(And give Velsharoon wedgies every day for eternity)

[Ephemeral_Being]

Shhhhhhh, we don't talk about that module. You know that feeling that you get when a movie about a certain franchise !@#$s up everything about the setting, characters, tone, etc. massively? Die, Vecna, Die! is that feeling in module form, made 3 times as bad because it messes up 3 settings at once. The writers of the module apparently didn't consult the creators of 2 of those settings to ensure that their stuff would mesh well with the settings that they were using.

Take what I say with a grain of salt, of course, since I've never actually played Die, Vecna, Die!, and most of my knowledge of it has been osmosed from forums and other similar sources.

So, to be fair, I don't think ANYONE actually played DVD. It would be a terrible campaign. Besides the fact that everything and its mother has plot armour, that it meshes something like three settings means your players (who, as a general rule, are to be considered clever if they can name more than four gods in the Pantheon) have to know the lore for Planescape, AND Greyhawk, AND Sigil. Maybe, if you took a group of hardcore DMs who had previously read the 200 splatbooks necessary to understand what was going on they could get through it (except for the insane difficulty of some of the encounters - did you ever read it? Some of them flat-out have advice for the DM to flub their party being wiped out). But, I know my players would revolt after the first act.

That being said, it's a crazy awesome piece of lore, and actually makes a bit of sense given the nature of Planescape. I'll admit the Ravenloft bits are screwy, but I genuinely liked the Planescape elements (even though, again, it would be awful to play). It reads like a novel, if admittedly a novel were written from the perspective of Ao watching the four most boring people in the world go through the motions of saving the multiverse.

As for the question at hand...

The Lady of Pain is absolutely fascinating. If you have the time (and access to a library), you can find mention of her in a TON of Planescape sourcebooks. The problem being, they're all written from an in-universe perspective, meaning that in addition to being called "berk" a thousand times, you can't know for certain if any of them are correct. And, in fact, many of the stories actually argue with one another. Welcome to history.

They agree on all the stuff you've already been told. She's old, she patrols Sigil, she doesn't seem to want anyone worshiping her, and she's nigh-impossible to communicate with. She can kill you, she can Maze you, and no one even TRIES to overthrow her without dying in some horribly painful fashion. There isn't much more to say on that score. The best take-away you can get is "she's enigmatic."

They disagree on her origin and purpose. I've read she's some sort of Demon, Devil, Yugoloth, dead god, demigod, or even one of the things that existed before the Gods, and then some of the stuff people have already posted. Personally, I settled on The Lady of Pain being one of the OLD Yugoloths, like the General of Gehenna. We're talking so old, they were ancient when the Demons and Devils crawled out of the primordial ooze. I think that's where the lore was heading before Planescape took a nosedive into obscurity with 3e. The books on the Blood War had the most to say about her, which leads me to assume she was going to take a role in that conflict (at some point). It's unclear what she's doing, or why, but that's where the lore seemed to point. Or, at least, that's what I thought. I don't think there's enough information to say for certain what she is. I like the idea about her literally being pain someone posted, but I haven't read the book.

Oh, and @Florian, if you value your sanity do NOT delve too deeply into Asmodeus's ascension. Some idiot got it into their head to write that story into their novel, and it's terrible. Like, worse than the 4e/5e lore in general. I'm still working to forget the stupidity of their decisions.

[Braininthejar2]

I have no idea what you're getting at

I mean, there can be several languages claiming to be "first" - most are right in their own context - until someone shows up who can go deeper.

[Florian]

So, to be fair, I don't think ANYONE actually played DVD.

Misconception on your part. Planescape had a lot of campaigns that you don´t "play" in the regular sense as they tend to happen slow and in the background, the Great Modron March being the prime example.


I mean, there can be several languages claiming to be "first" - most are right in their own context - until someone shows up who can go deeper.

That´s not really the point. Contextually, we talk about "language" that would redefine using the rules. If "Primeval" is equal to epic spells, then scrap casters.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Agreed.
It leads you to wonder why the designers stuck in so many of them. Why not just make one and have done with it?

That would require writers to actually talk to one another and the company to care enough about their lore to keep it consistent between writers and authors. The only large property with a huge catalogue of Stuff that is that careful with their lore that I know of is the Halo Franchise. Which may no longer be true, I've gotten really behind in reading the books and comics.

[DataNinja]

The only large property with a huge catalogue of Stuff that is that careful with their lore that I know of is the Halo Franchise. Which may no longer be true, I've gotten really behind in reading the books and comics.

They were pretty good, but they're at the point where newer stuff is definitely starting to retcon older stuff. Which is a shame, because it was really well put together, and nice with how everything slotted in. But, alas, it just goes to show you that even well organized things will eventually fall prey when you have enough authorial input.

[khadgar567]

so language primeval is what the apophis talks and and vecna knows some how a dialect of it color me shocked

[Florian]

That would require writers to actually talk to one another and the company to care enough about their lore to keep it consistent between writers and authors.

Take a look at what FASA did with BattleTech or how TSR handles Al´Qadim. That´s how it can look when a company wants to sell a setting, not only churn out rules.

[Melcar]

The 3rd-party class Wordbearer comes to mind. From the Quintessential Wizard.



The only "language primeval" I can think of would be the Words of Creation, i.e. truespeak.

Pretty much. Its the source of the Powerword spells, which is vastly inferior to the Language Primeval, which indeed is the language of the creation. Its basically a form of raw magic only accessible by elder beings. Or very powerful mortals...
Here (http://www.rilmani.org/timaresh/Language_Primeval)


I saw this thread, did some googling because I was curious about why Die, Vecna, Die! was so bad, and found these tidbits about the Language Primeval:


The Lady of Pain is very powerful as she knows and can speak the Language Primeval (i.e. the same language as the Last Word from "Dead Gods")
She's confirmed as being one of the "Ancient Brethren". (Yes, this is the first I recall hearing about them as well.) From how I view it, the AB are the underlying forces of the multiverse; things like Magic, Death, etc. In other words, the Lady is the god/force/philosophy who *IS* Pain, as opposed to a god *OF* Pain
The Language Primeval was introduced in College of Magic, by Bruce Cordell. As I understand it, it's somewhat different from the True Words in Dead Gods, though I can understand Bruce Cordell trying to connect the two.


Would it be correct to assume, that if a mortal spellcaster had access to this language primeval and the power behind it, that she could be affected by it?

[Eldan]

Would it be correct to assume, that if a mortal spellcaster had access to this language primeval and the power behind it, that she could be affected by it?

The answer to almost all questions regarding the lady is "Maybe".

That said, I doubtt that a mortal spellcaster could use it. Tenebrous barely managed to use one word of it and he was a god and had the power of Primus at the time.

[khadgar567]

The answer to almost all questions regarding the lady is "Maybe".

That said, I doubtt that a mortal spellcaster could use it. Tenebrous barely managed to use one word of it and he was a god and had the power of Primus at the time.
So if some one masters it. Basicly has setting in his hand

[Svata]

Doesn't matter. Lady of Pain still wins. Why? Because she's the Lady of Pain. This is her statblock

Level: Higher than that.
HP: More.
To Hit: Always hits you
AC: 10^((((10^100)^10^100)^10^100)^100^10000) (for reference, there are approx 10^78 atoms in the universe) (Touch and Flat-footed are the same)
Fort: Yes
Ref: Yes
Will: Yes

Special abilities: Extant.

[Melcar]

The answer to almost all questions regarding the lady is "Maybe".

That said, I doubtt that a mortal spellcaster could use it. Tenebrous barely managed to use one word of it and he was a god and had the power of Primus at the time.

Indeed, but I was actually thinking that if one were to try and get a hold of all the knowledge one could, took his/hers time to research and study it, (maybe with the inclusion of the aforementioned PrC), one could actually affect her, because it the same energies or same same frequencies as the magic/energy she runs on...


So if some one masters it. Basically has setting in his hand

One could probably say, that having mastered the energies/ were fluent in the language primeval, one would effectively become an over deity... What form or body that can hold such immense raw magic is however a good question, and one would probably have to do some serious in-game "cheese" to become powerful enough to not utterly implode by the tidal forces of such potent, raw unfiltered energies.


Doesn't matter. Lady of Pain still wins. Why? Because she's the Lady of Pain. This is her statblock

Level: Higher than that.
HP: More.
To Hit: Always hits you
AC: 10^((((10^100)^10^100)^10^100)^100^10000) (for reference, there are approx 10^78 atoms in the universe) (Touch and Flat-footed are the same)
Fort: Yes
Ref: Yes
Will: Yes

Special abilities: Extant.

Right, that's the usual baloney with her... if one however were to use magic that vibrated with the same frequency as she does (bear with; my idea that the reason for her being invincible is because she exists in a different dimension, because she vibrates with a frequency mortals are not in tune with. Sort of like the string theory), one might be able to affect her. Not saying that she would still not win, but is she wields a power, that can reshape reality and one were to gain access to the same forces, I think its plausible to deduct that it would also affect her in some matter. Granted she would have some form of resistance and saves and what not, but I would assume that the primordial energies that was wielded to create the multiverse and probably also used to create her, can indeed un-create her, with sufficient mastery... Whether or not one should or could allow a mortal player character to gain such power is debatable, since such powers would entail high epic gameplay... but it might just be the end game hooks that are interesting for some players... my self included.

[BWR]

The answer to almost all questions regarding the lady is "Maybe".

That said, I doubtt that a mortal spellcaster could use it. Tenebrous barely managed to use one word of it and he was a god and had the power of Primus at the time.

Actually he picked up the Last Word before he killed Primus and took over the modrons. He used TLW to kill Primus. Also, he was not a god at the point, he was a probably undead shade or remnant of a god (since the entire plot of Dead Gods is Tenebrous trying to resurrect himself back to Orcus), which was too weak to properly handle TLW, resulting in him slowly dissipating from its power.

[Eldan]

Hm, right, got the sequence confused. Of course he had to have the word to take over Primus.

[Âmesang]

What?! Just because Vecna is super smart and tricks all the gods and other superbeings doesn't make him Mary Sue. And sure, just cause he's BFFs with the source of evil and magic doesn't make him OP.
I also heard his phylactary is a katana.
As much of a joke as that last statement most certainly is… I can't help but now imagine the Sword of Kas as that phylactery katana being used against Vecna.

Granted, this is also a setting where Lolth, Demon Queen of Spiders, had previously conquered several other material worlds placing her influence beyond just Oerth and Toril (and she even tried to conquer Eberron in Dungeons & Dragons Online).

[Psyren]

Doesn't matter. Lady of Pain still wins. Why? Because she's the Lady of Pain. This is her statblock

Level: Higher than that.
HP: More.
To Hit: Always hits you
AC: 10^((((10^100)^10^100)^10^100)^100^10000) (for reference, there are approx 10^78 atoms in the universe) (Touch and Flat-footed are the same)
Fort: Yes
Ref: Yes
Will: Yes

Special abilities: Extant.

It's funny because you can't actually kill her! Did you get it guys?? We're so original!



Granted, this is also a setting where Lolth, Demon Queen of Spiders, had previously conquered several other material worlds placing her influence beyond just Oerth and Toril (and she even tried to conquer Eberron in Dungeons & Dragons Online).

How the hell would that even work? Eberron barely has gods as it is.

[Florian]

It's funny because you can't actually kill her! Did you get it guys?? We're so original!

Faction Wars called....

[Eldan]

Faction Wars called....

And that worked out so well for Rowan Darkwood, patron saint of power gamers?

[Âmesang]

How the hell would that even work? Eberron barely has gods as it is.
Maybe that's why she thought them easy pickings? :smallconfused:

http://store.steampowered.com/app/213195/Dungeons__Dragons_Online_Menace_of_the_Underdark/

[ATHATH]

Random thought here: What if the Lady of Pain is (some variant of) Pun-Pun?

[Gildedragon]

Random thought here: What if the Lady of Pain is (some variant of) Pun-Pun?

So not squirrels but instead a couple kobolds standing on each other's shoulders?

[Florian]

Random thought here: What if the Lady of Pain is (some variant of) Pun-Pun?

Funny.

But go from there and take a revised look at deities.

[Lazymancer]

She seems incapable of going out of the city, and gods are incapable of going into it.
When it comes to gods sneaking in Sigil, I'd say it is more of a "unwilling", rather than "incapable" (some managed to pull this off). It's just tends to be really bad idea (Aoskar got killed by Lady of Pain, for example).



The only living being to ever beat the Lady of Pain was a corpse. Vecna entered the city of doors and within became a god. This resulted in Vecna getting booted out of Sigil and the Lady of Pain herself rewriting the multiverse to the point that 2e became 3e. All according to Vecna's design wizards became gods
Filthy cleric propaganda. Wizards always were gods.



The 2ED accessory College of Wizardry talks about the Language Primeval, called Aleph, in Chapter 5, p43. This accessory details the wizard's guild, the Arcane Order, which is later mentions in Complete Mage in the 3ED prestige class, Mage of the Arcane Order.
I don't think that's it. Mage of the Arcane Order is a generic version of setting-specific class (Guild Wizard of Waterdeep). I.e. it's Mage of the [Arcane Order].

[Melcar]

Ok I have been doing some thinking:

The Language Primeval. I believe this to be the language in which the magic of the creation of the multiverse is written. The language is a form of raw, unfiltered, primal form of magic that predates even the overdeities (College of Wizardry; 43-44).

Multiple times, texts elude to the language being that of a certain “the Serpent”:


“In various times and places, epic spells have been personified as “the Serpent,” codified as True Dweomers, and encoded as part of an ancient lore called the Language Primeval.” (Epic Level Handbook; 71).



“The Serpent speaks directly to Vecna. Others— daring to call themselves wizards, magicians, and sorcerers— manipulate the tiniest aspects of the Serpent and call it magic. But Vecna speaks to the Serpent, and the Serpent speaks back” (Vecna Reborn; 2).

I belive this Serpent is the same serpent as the one mentioned in the original name of the Nether Scrolls; "The Golden Skins of the World Serpent". And that the Serpent is a being of immeasurable, unfathomable primordial power – basically the source of magic itself:



“The Language Primeval, a surpassingly powerful magical grammar, was spoken by the Ancient Brethren, the Elders, and other semimythical races when all the worlds were young or yet unborn. As a confidant of the Serpent, Vecna has some knowledge of this purely magical tongue, and so he recorded a spell of uncommon power.” (Die Vecna Die; 2).

Either the Sarrukh, being a creator race, had knowledge of this utterly omnipotent primordial being of unfathomable power, or the “World Serpent” is simply their name for their god of magic. Considering however, that they reference a serpent in their most valued artifact, and so too is a serpent mentioned in texts on the language primordial – which the Lady of Pain utilizes to alter reality. I do not believe this to be a coincidence:



“Thus, the Lady of Pain, a confidant or perhaps even peer to the Serpent, speaks in the Language Primeval (the language of the Serpent and its Ancient Brethren, in which the three words of Creation Once Spoken were uttered). Uttering her words, while standing in the crux of the multiverse known as Sigil, she reorders reality. Uttering her words, the only words spoken by her in the last several millennia, she shores up Sigil's wards against entry by deities who attempt to "cheat" as Vecna did. Uttering her words, she attempts to shore up the sum of all creation, also called superspace.” (Die Vecna Die; 151).


All the above have made me deduce the following:
1) The Language Primeval, is the fundamental language of the underlying structures of all magical energies. “The original magic” – with which the multiverse was created.

2) The Serpent, is a real being of unimaginable power and age which constitutes the source of all magic in the multiverse.

3) The World Serpent mentioned in the original name for the Nether Scrolls and “the Serpent”, is the same being.

4) The Lady of Pain, for all her immense power, is proficient in the language primeval and is thus a wielder of the Serpents power. Thus, making the Serpent more powerful or a more fundamental part of the multiverse, than the Lady. This means also, that the Lady of Pain must be one of the Ancient Brethren or Elders.

5) If she draws her power from a source more ancient and powerful than herself, its highly plausible that this magic is able to affect her.


So what do you guys think? You agree? Any comments?

[Gildedragon]

Ok I have been doing some thinking:

The Language Primeval. I believe this to be the language in which the magic of the creation of the multiverse is written. The language is a form of raw, unfiltered, primal form of magic that predates even the overdeities (College of Wizardry; 43-44).

Multiple times, texts elude to the language being that of a certain “the Serpent”:





I belive this Serpent is the same serpent as the one mentioned in the original name of the Nether Scrolls; "The Golden Skins of the World Serpent". And that the Serpent is a being of immeasurable, unfathomable primordial power – basically the source of magic itself:



Either the Sarrukh, being a creator race, had knowledge of this utterly omnipotent primordial being of unfathomable power, or the “World Serpent” is simply their name for their god of magic. Considering however, that they reference a serpent in their most valued artifact, and so too is a serpent mentioned in texts on the language primordial – which the Lady of Pain utilizes to alter reality. I do not believe this to be a coincidence:




All the above have made me deduce the following:
1) The Language Primeval, is the fundamental language of the underlying structures of all magical energies. “The original magic” – with which the multiverse was created.

2) The Serpent, is a real being of unimaginable power and age which constitutes the source of all magic in the multiverse.

3) The World Serpent mentioned in the original name for the Nether Scrolls and “the Serpent”, is the same being.

4) The Lady of Pain, for all her immense power, is proficient in the language primeval and is thus a wielder of the Serpents power. Thus, making the Serpent more powerful or a more fundamental part of the multiverse, than the Lady. This means also, that the Lady of Pain must be one of the Ancient Brethren or Elders.

5) If she draws her power from a source more ancient and powerful than herself, its highly plausible that this magic is able to affect her.


So what do you guys think? You agree? Any comments?

4 doesn't follow.
Yes it is the language of the serpent by what you posit but that does not mean it is exclusive to the serpent OR that it emanates from it, merely that the serpent uses it. furthermore even if those two are the case; it doesn't mean that the better part of Her Pointiness's power derives from said language.
That the LoP uses said language merely means she knows it, but it needn't be her mother tongue.

[thorr-kan]

don't think that's it. Mage of the Arcane Order is a generic version of setting-specific class (Guild Wizard of Waterdeep). I.e. it's Mage of the [Arcane Order].
You would be incorrect.

College of Wizardy specifically calls them the Arcane Order, as does Complete Arcane. The description of the organization is a direct port from College of Wizardy.

[BWR]

Ok I have been doing some thinking:

The Language Primeval. I believe this to be the language in which the magic of the creation of the multiverse is written. The language is a form of raw, unfiltered, primal form of magic that predates even the overdeities (College of Wizardry; 43-44).

Multiple times, texts elude to the language being that of a certain “the Serpent”:





I belive this Serpent is the same serpent as the one mentioned in the original name of the Nether Scrolls; "The Golden Skins of the World Serpent". And that the Serpent is a being of immeasurable, unfathomable primordial power – basically the source of magic itself:



Either the Sarrukh, being a creator race, had knowledge of this utterly omnipotent primordial being of unfathomable power, or the “World Serpent” is simply their name for their god of magic. Considering however, that they reference a serpent in their most valued artifact, and so too is a serpent mentioned in texts on the language primordial – which the Lady of Pain utilizes to alter reality. I do not believe this to be a coincidence:




All the above have made me deduce the following:
1) The Language Primeval, is the fundamental language of the underlying structures of all magical energies. “The original magic” – with which the multiverse was created.

2) The Serpent, is a real being of unimaginable power and age which constitutes the source of all magic in the multiverse.

3) The World Serpent mentioned in the original name for the Nether Scrolls and “the Serpent”, is the same being.

4) The Lady of Pain, for all her immense power, is proficient in the language primeval and is thus a wielder of the Serpents power. Thus, making the Serpent more powerful or a more fundamental part of the multiverse, than the Lady. This means also, that the Lady of Pain must be one of the Ancient Brethren or Elders.

5) If she draws her power from a source more ancient and powerful than herself, its highly plausible that this magic is able to affect her.


So what do you guys think? You agree? Any comments?


A more plausible interpretation. (http://mimir.planewalker.com/forum/vecna-and-serpent)

[Melcar]

4 doesn't follow.
Yes it is the language of the serpent by what you posit but that does not mean it is exclusive to the serpent OR that it emanates from it, merely that the serpent uses it. furthermore even if those two are the case; it doesn't mean that the better part of Her Pointiness's power derives from said language.
That the LoP uses said language merely means she knows it, but it needn't be her mother tongue.

You are right about that, however the language must predate both her and the other brethren... which seems weird then to call the the language of the serpent, if indeed its true that she and the serpent are brethren like the Mysteries of D&D article in Dragon Mag #359 suggests. It suggests other explanations too though.

But the point being that she seems to activate some force, which does not seem to emanate from her, ergo some force most be stronger that her, which must originate from somewhere.



A more plausible interpretation. (http://mimir.planewalker.com/forum/vecna-and-serpent)

Right that could be true, but is it more likely that multiple races throughout many different worlds across many eons all came op with the same name for magic, when IFAIK all settings have their own creator overdeity and god of magic? It would seem more likely to use their respective name, like Mystra and the weave instead of calling it the serpent... unless is it know that she (Mystra) is not the source of all magic... (or what ever god holds the magic portfolio in their respective setting).

Another interesting question would be how to or where to go to learn the language primeval... in its native, un-codified, un-translated (through the weave or other means) tongue! Any suggestions or sources there?

[Eldan]

Tenebrous got the Last Word from the ruins on Pelion, which are one of the oldest things, general, in the multiverse. And that's one word. And he spent a lot of time on it. I can say with some confidence that one would not just learn that language.

Wanting to kill the Lady makes no sense, really. If you do, the campaign setting is over. Or mostly over. Planescape's thing is that the Planes, which in many settings are distant, weird places, are suddenly weird places you can get to easily and semi-reliably, even at low levels.
Kill the Lady and then what? War breaks out. THe mother of all wars, to make the Blood War look like a Skirmish. The one who has control over Sigil can go anywhere. Not just all the planes and their layers. Most of the places on those layers too. It's the strategic advantage.

And meanwhile, between most of the gods, fiends, celestials and archomentals throwing their power at Sigil, the mortals would just be crushed and driven out of Sigil. Players could no longer easily travel the planes. You'd have to walk, or use the rivers, or Yggdrasil, or natural portals. Or Planeshift magic, which is terrible for getting anywhere.

There's no setting anymore.

[fire_insideout]

You are right about that, however the language must predate both her and the other brethren

Why? What says that the Lady did not exist before the multiverse?

[Melcar]

Tenebrous got the Last Word from the ruins on Pelion, which are one of the oldest things, general, in the multiverse. And that's one word. And he spent a lot of time on it. I can say with some confidence that one would not just learn that language.

Wanting to kill the Lady makes no sense, really. If you do, the campaign setting is over. Or mostly over. Planescape's thing is that the Planes, which in many settings are distant, weird places, are suddenly weird places you can get to easily and semi-reliably, even at low levels.
Kill the Lady and then what? War breaks out. THe mother of all wars, to make the Blood War look like a Skirmish. The one who has control over Sigil can go anywhere. Not just all the planes and their layers. Most of the places on those layers too. It's the strategic advantage.

And meanwhile, between most of the gods, fiends, celestials and archomentals throwing their power at Sigil, the mortals would just be crushed and driven out of Sigil. Players could no longer easily travel the planes. You'd have to walk, or use the rivers, or Yggdrasil, or natural portals. Or Planeshift magic, which is terrible for getting anywhere.

There's no setting anymore.

Indeed, this was not because I wanted to kill/destroy her. I think too that that would unhinge the "balance" and bring about cataclysmic events on a cosmic scale, I was just interested in the knowledge in and of itself. So this is just from a role-playing cool fluff end game goal thing... Not a tool/ weapon....



Why? What says that the Lady did not exist before the multiverse?

Well it doesn't explicitly say that, however I get that vibe. Like its the language of creation... Would you say that that's a totally wrong interpretation? What I mean by that is, that its a ore fundamental force, which by way of this language is manipulated. The ultimate constructionist thought... that language makes things be. But I get a feeling that its not created by the ancient brethren, but just spoken by them... Like I didn't invent english, but I talk it (however one could say, that english is constantly evolving and was created by humans, so too could the language primeval be created by the brethren, but I just get a different feeling) Same way with the ancient brethren.

[Florian]

Looking at how the inner planes work, it would not make sense to have more than one creation methods.

[fire_insideout]

Well it doesn't explicitly say that, however I get that vibe. Like its the language of creation... Would you say that that's a totally wrong interpretation? What I mean by that is, that its a ore fundamental force, which by way of this language is manipulated. The ultimate constructionist thought... that language makes things be. But I get a feeling that its not created by the ancient brethren, but just spoken by them... Like I didn't invent english, but I talk it (however one could say, that english is constantly evolving and was created by humans, so too could the language primeval be created by the brethren, but I just get a different feeling) Same way with the ancient brethren.

You can't deduce things logically if your premises are incorrect. Since there is no proof of (at least) premise 1 or 4 the conclusion is not reliable.

[Eldan]

Looking at how the inner planes work, it would not make sense to have more than one creation methods.

It absolutely makes sense to have many mutually contradictory creations in the Outer Planes in Planescape. If enough people believe it, it's true to at least some degree.

[Melcar]

You can't deduce things logically if your premises are incorrect. Since there is no proof of (at least) premise 1 or 4 the conclusion is not reliable.

Fair enough... If I did not make it clear it was naturally only my interpretation. What are your thoughts on the matter? Which interpretation do you yourself have of the whole language vs the brethren?

Btw, I looked some more and found this (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hm66?The-Ancient-Brethren), which mentions the name of the serpent Vecna speaks with. Its name is apparently "Mok'Slyk". If you search for that name one gets this (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Merrshaulk), which states that its indeed the same being as the world serpent, the sarrukh venerated and mentioned in the name of the Nether Scrolls.

However, Mok'Slyk is mentioned as being a over-deity, which would make it like that of AO or IO. Over-deities have the power to create worlds and gods, and are masters of their own created realms, which might be why the Lady of Pain can bar out any deity for Sigil. So can AO in Realmspace, which he created. Nor do over-deities listen to prayers and takes up no followers, which the Lady also does not.

Now the thing is, if the serpent is indeed one of the brethren, as multiple sources elude to, and that a brethren is an over-deity, then I extrapolate that the Lady of Pain is also an over-deity - since is is mentiones that she is a brethren in multiple sources e.g. dragon mag #359. She certainly seem to holds several of the abilities known to over-deities (which probably should hold many more that what official sources tell).

Whats interesting with this interpretation, if it is indeed true, is that since AO has a master... the other brethren might well indeed have a master too... whether or not it is the same Supreme Being, we don't know. But, that elusive Supreme Being might just have been the source of the language primeval and might have used said language to create the over-deities.

There are a few things that confuse me. The serpent, however sentient it might be, seems to also be the personification of magic as a whole, which might make is a transdimensional being, and might be one of the fundamental forces of the multiverse, indeed even the Omniverse, which then I would think was not actively created by a supreme being, since it would then already have magic... However, the supreme being could make the serpent a guardian like, (think Mystra, just on a cosmic scale) or he would simple give the ever flowing magic a conscience (that of the serpent). But... I then don't see the serpent being the source of all magic, but "merely" the steward.

The thing is however, that if the serpent is magic, and the Lady, AO, Asmodeus and the other brethren uses it, would that not make the serpent more than them... ? (Magic itself > the user?) And the it would seem wierd to me if they were equals.

It makes more sense to me, if the brethren were the first sentient forces in the omnivers, thus a personification of some fundamental concept or law, which would make them vastly superior and aloof, compared to over-deities like that of AO.

There seem to be some inconsistencies in the myths...

What do you guys think?

[ngilop]

Fair enough... If I did not make it clear it was naturally only my interpretation. What are your thoughts on the matter? Which interpretation do you yourself have of the whole language vs the brethren?

Btw, I looked some more and found this (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hm66?The-Ancient-Brethren), which mentions the name of the serpent Vecna speaks with. Its name is apparently "Mok'Slyk". If you search for that name one gets this (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Merrshaulk), which states that its indeed the same being as the world serpent, the sarrukh venerated and mentioned in the name of the Nether Scrolls.

However, Mok'Slyk is mentioned as being a over-deity, which would make it like that of AO or IO. Over-deities have the power to create worlds and gods, and are masters of their own created realms, which might be why the Lady of Pain can bar out any deity for Sigil. So can AO in Realmspace, which he created. Nor do over-deities listen to prayers and takes up no followers, which the Lady also does not.

Now the thing is, if the serpent is indeed one of the brethren, as multiple sources elude to, and that a brethren is an over-deity, then I extrapolate that the Lady of Pain is also an over-deity - since is is mentiones that she is a brethren in multiple sources e.g. dragon mag #359. She certainly seem to holds several of the abilities known to over-deities (which probably should hold many more that what official sources tell).

Whats interesting with this interpretation, if it is indeed true, is that since AO has a master... the other brethren might well indeed have a master too... whether or not it is the same Supreme Being, we don't know. But, that elusive Supreme Being might just have been the source of the language primeval and might have used said language to create the over-deities.

There are a few things that confuse me. The serpent, however sentient it might be, seems to also be the personification of magic as a whole, which might make is a transdimensional being, and might be one of the fundamental forces of the multiverse, indeed even the Omniverse, which then I would think was not actively created by a supreme being, since it would then already have magic... However, the supreme being could make the serpent a guardian like, (think Mystra, just on a cosmic scale) or he would simple give the ever flowing magic a conscience (that of the serpent). But... I then don't see the serpent being the source of all magic, but "merely" the steward.

The thing is however, that if the serpent is magic, and the Lady, AO, Asmodeus and the other brethren uses it, would that not make the serpent more than them... ? (Magic itself > the user?) And the it would seem wierd to me if they were equals.

It makes more sense to me, if the brethren were the first sentient forces in the omnivers, thus a personification of some fundamental concept or law, which would make them vastly superior and aloof, compared to over-deities like that of AO.

There seem to be some inconsistencies in the myths...

What do you guys think?

Underlined part is what I am going to speak on:)

The master that AO talks to is supposed to be 'you' the DM (or maybe the player as well that's ther bit that I am not rembering exactly)

and of course there are inconsistencies in myths, its kind of a given that if you look, at some point they all contradict themselves on several, often integral, points.

also in regards to fireinsideout's post. Logic really has no place when you factor in what is the outerplanes and nigh omnipotent beings consist of, basically logic takes a break and says 'eh.. I need some pizza and Kool-Aid... you guys got this) 'guys' referring to all sorts of insanities and whatever the opposite of logic is.

[ExLibrisMortis]

since AO has a master [...]

What do you guys think?
I'm going to say it's recursive overdeities without bottom.

A being creates a realm.
This realm has creatures in it, but the creator has absolute power over the entire thing.
The creatures in this realm also create realms. They have absolute power over their realms, of course subject to the higher-tier creator's absolute power.
This realm-in-a-realm has, of course, a bunch of realm-creating creatures in it. Yay, recursion!


Now here's the kicker: each realm/universe is only a hypothetical scenario in the mind of its creator. When I say "We could move the meeting to Monday", I am the creator of the universe that is formed by [my knowledge of the world] + [meeting moved to Monday] (decidedly less complex than the actual world, because my knowledge of it is incomplete). Note: the past and the future are also 'hypotheticals' in this sense. Just by thinking, all creatures in all universes create new realms all the time, becoming the overdeities of their own realms. If multiple creatures share a hypothetical, that realm has multiple overdeities. Hell, mind/dream-affecting magic can allow a creature to forcibly affect a hypothetical.

In this view, deities may be incomplete (simplified) hypothetical forms of the creature's peers. For example, the overdeity that created the Great Wheel had a friend whose hypothetical reflection is Moradin (good), and an enemy whose hypothetical form is Erythnul (evil). Creatures that ascend in-universe are imaginary characters of an overdeity's creative mind (note that they ascend by taking 'divine power' from real people (real to the overdeity, anyhow)).

In humans, hypotheticals are formed through language (okay, this is a bit of an issue, philosophically, but let's assume for the sake of this exposé). The multiverse is a hypothetical expressed in the Language Primeval. If the Lady of Pain speaks the Language Primeval, then maybe...
... she has bodily entered a hypothetical or dream, of herself or another overdeity, or
... she is an incredibly accurate hypothetical thought up by someone who knows her extremely well, or
... she is a hypothetical thought up by the next tier of overdeity.
(+ other options, why not)

Also, think of what kind of mind thinks up a universe as complex as the Great Wheel as a simple hypothetical. And think of what kind of overdeity would intervene in its own creation: it would have to be someone who'd interfere with their own thoughts. Plus you get a version of Lovecraft's Azatoth myth, which may or may not be a great addition to your campaign setting.

(back to actually relevant speculation, now)

[Melcar]

Underlined part is what I am going to speak on:)

The master that AO talks to is supposed to be 'you' the DM (or maybe the player as well that's ther bit that I am not rembering exactly)

and of course there are inconsistencies in myths, its kind of a given that if you look, at some point they all contradict themselves on several, often integral, points.

also in regards to fireinsideout's post. Logic really has no place when you factor in what is the outerplanes and nigh omnipotent beings consist of, basically logic takes a break and says 'eh.. I need some pizza and Kool-Aid... you guys got this) 'guys' referring to all sorts of insanities and whatever the opposite of logic is.

I have heard this argument before, but I kind of like the ideer that its some form of higher being. For me, it adds depth or complexity, which I like. I know I wont, even with a level 100 character reach those levels, but I think its fun to wonder about. And I kind of agree the the misplacement of logic at that point. Still I think its fun to try to uncover and theorize on things like that.


I'm going to say it's recursive overdeities without bottom.

A being creates a realm.
This realm has creatures in it, but the creator has absolute power over the entire thing.
The creatures in this realm also create realms. They have absolute power over their realms, of course subject to the higher-tier creator's absolute power.
This realm-in-a-realm has, of course, a bunch of realm-creating creatures in it. Yay, recursion!


Now here's the kicker: each realm/universe is only a hypothetical scenario in the mind of its creator. When I say "We could move the meeting to Monday", I am the creator of the universe that is formed by [my knowledge of the world] + [meeting moved to Monday] (decidedly less complex than the actual world, because my knowledge of it is incomplete). Note: the past and the future are also 'hypotheticals' in this sense. Just by thinking, all creatures in all universes create new realms all the time, becoming the overdeities of their own realms. If multiple creatures share a hypothetical, that realm has multiple overdeities. Hell, mind/dream-affecting magic can allow a creature to forcibly affect a hypothetical.

In this view, deities may be incomplete (simplified) hypothetical forms of the creature's peers. For example, the overdeity that created the Great Wheel had a friend whose hypothetical reflection is Moradin (good), and an enemy whose hypothetical form is Erythnul (evil). Creatures that ascend in-universe are imaginary characters of an overdeity's creative mind (note that they ascend by taking 'divine power' from real people (real to the overdeity, anyhow)).

In humans, hypotheticals are formed through language (okay, this is a bit of an issue, philosophically, but let's assume for the sake of this exposé). The multiverse is a hypothetical expressed in the Language Primeval. If the Lady of Pain speaks the Language Primeval, then maybe...
... she has bodily entered a hypothetical or dream, of herself or another overdeity, or
... she is an incredibly accurate hypothetical thought up by someone who knows her extremely well, or
... she is a hypothetical thought up by the next tier of overdeity.
(+ other options, why not)

Also, think of what kind of mind thinks up a universe as complex as the Great Wheel as a simple hypothetical. And think of what kind of overdeity would intervene in its own creation: it would have to be someone who'd interfere with their own thoughts. Plus you get a version of Lovecraft's Azatoth myth, which may or may not be a great addition to your campaign setting.

(back to actually relevant speculation, now)

I like your take on "the multiverse is a hypothetical expressed in the language primeval" I also like your thought that if the Lady of Pain speaks the Language Primeval, then maybe the lady of pain might have bodily entered a hypothetical or dream, of herself or another overdeity or that she is a hypothetical thought up by the next tier of overdeity. Which kind of is the feeling I get when I read about the ancient brethren. Not saying that that is explicitly stated, its just the vibe I get.

It could mean that the ancient brethren might be feelings or emotions of a supreme being... which kind of could make sense if they are to represent fundamentals of the multiverse (Such as the serpent being magic), thus a sentient personification of the supreme being's emotion. I either see them as the first or the second tier of beings, but as far as I can find, there is no information that conclusively states who is the final arbiter in the omniverse. Non the less, its a fun thought exercise.


To sum op, I see the Brethren as either:

1) They are a fundamental force/law in the Omniverse, which would mean that they are everlasting infinite beings beyond abstraction for even over-deities.

2) They are hypotheticals of some higher tier being, yet still higher tier than over-deities.

3) They are "simply" over-deities, who have a realm each (which is represented by a higher abstract version portfolio (the serpent having the magic domain of a cosmic abstraction level), than that of normal deities (lesser -greater).

As of now, I cant figure out which one I like the most, or which one I think makes most sense...

[Evolved Shrimp]

5) If she draws her power from a source more ancient and powerful than herself, its highly plausible that this magic is able to affect her.

So what do you guys think?

I think that killing the Lady is in a way the roleplaying variant of squaring the circle or the perpetuum mobile: Everybody knows that it‘s impossible. But time and again, someone thinks they have found a novel way that no one has considered before and that will succeed where the others have failed.

And if the Lady even notices, she stifles a yawn. Being a lady and all...

[afroakuma]

...it feels like I got here rather late to be of any practical use.

[Gildedragon]

...it feels like I got here rather late to be of any practical use.
TBH this was impractical from post 1 so please, lore away and get the cannons a firing: heads and otherwise

[Melcar]

I think that killing the Lady is in a way the roleplaying variant of squaring the circle or the perpetuum mobile: Everybody knows that it‘s impossible. But time and again, someone thinks they have found a novel way that no one has considered before and that will succeed where the others have failed.

And if the Lady even notices, she stifles a yawn. Being a lady and all...

Ohh, I did not want to kill her. But just being able to affect her, would be interesting. I usually don't like flat out "Immune all", so I was arguing that maybe if other beings were to speak (in essence wield) the language primeval it would affect her. Assuming the language is fundamental building blocks of the omniverse. One would naturally know what to say in this tongue, but I think the idea has merit.


TBH this was impractical from post 1 so please, lore away and get the cannons a firing: heads and otherwise

Indeed... have at it! :smallsmile:

[Thurbane]

Deities and demigods cover is purple or blue with a golden man coming out of a rod choking a snake coming out of a rod.

If I remember I will be able to find the book Friday

You're still thinking of Loviatar, who is not LoP (and she is listed under the Finnish pantheon).

Minor nitpick: I believe you are both referencing the 1E Deities and Demigods. The 2E version was known as Legends and Lore. It went back to being called Deities and Demigods in 3E.

Fun factoid: the initial printing of that book included some copyrighted material that was later removed from subsequent printings - notably the Cthulhu mythos (Lovecraft) and Melnibonean mythos (Moorcock).

Never mind, I could have sworn someone was calling it the 2E Deities and Demigods.

[Eldan]

...it feels like I got here rather late to be of any practical use.

Hi Afro. I think you could ceremoniously burn the thread down, maybe? There's a thread with someone asking about Red Shroud and Broken Reach somewhere that you might like to look into, though.

[afroakuma]

Looks well enough in hand. Might be time for me to do the old thing though. It's been a long time.

[Boozy]

I saw this thread, did some googling because I was curious about why Die, Vecna, Die! was so bad, and found these tidbits about the Language Primeval:


The Lady of Pain is very powerful as she knows and can speak the Language Primeval (i.e. the same language as the Last Word from "Dead Gods")
She's confirmed as being one of the "Ancient Brethren". (Yes, this is the first I recall hearing about them as well.) From how I view it, the AB are the underlying forces of the multiverse; things like Magic, Death, etc. In other words, the Lady is the god/force/philosophy who *IS* Pain, as opposed to a god *OF* Pain
The Language Primeval was introduced in College of Magic, by Bruce Cordell. As I understand it, it's somewhat different from the True Words in Dead Gods, though I can understand Bruce Cordell trying to connect the two.


You almost make her sound like one of the Endless, perhaps Desire working a side gig.

Ok, There's an important distinction to be made when examining the Lady of Pain. Namely, is Planescape canonical, and can 3rd/3.5 expand upon it, or is 3rd/3.5 canonical, and Planescape material.

Most of the pertinent details have been mentioned. She is a meta figure and plot device, a totem of the Planescape setting. She represents the gulf between players and powers, mystery, and power lying in what you know. Three things. She's rules Sigil, which is the center of all, and if you follow the Duke Rowanwood story arc through the Faction War, she is there in the beginning and the end. Again, three things.

Fun aside, she's a plot mechanism too. Her keeping powers out and stamping out Blood War battles in the Lady's Ward is what makes the setting work. Otherwise, players would never be able to gossip with a yugoloth over soul suds, or hire a law firm with an archon and baatezu as partners to negotiate a contract with said yugoloth. The Lady is what makes the City of Doors spin, and allows bashers like us to call it kip.

I highly, highly recommend the Planescape series for anyone running D&D, in any iteration. The setting details are amazing, coherent, and thematic. Get the modules. Additionally, play Torment. There's a reason why that game and Planescape were both considered the finest products of the TSR age.

[Eldan]

You almost make her sound like one of the Endless, perhaps Desire working a side gig.

Ok, There's an important distinction to be made when examining the Lady of Pain. Namely, is Planescape canonical, and can 3rd/3.5 expand upon it, or is 3rd/3.5 canonical, and Planescape material.


The answer to that is a solid maybe. 3.5 and Planescape fluff clash a lot, but while fluff 3.5 is written in a top down god fashion, a lot of Planescape fluff is written in character as travelogues and so on, and explicitly emphasizes that no one really knows what's true and that truth changes anyway. So, Asmodeus can absolutely have three conflicting backstories, Planescape thinks that's swell.

[Gildedragon]

After Much deliberation I figure that the Lady is merely an ultra introverted epic wizard
Doesn't like leaving her house
Doesn't like People calling out to her on the streets
Doesn't like her peers dropping by
...

[Bohandas]

OP: By the language primeval dya mean the Pact Primeval or Words of Creation or Dark Speech?

It might also mean truespeech

[fire_insideout]

The thing is however, that if the serpent is magic, and the Lady, AO, Asmodeus and the other brethren uses it, would that not make the serpent more than them... ? (Magic itself > the user?) And the it would seem wierd to me if they were equals.

It might also be the complete opposite. If I build a tool to help me with some task (say that as a I blacksmith I create a axe to help me chop wood) that tool is not 'more' than me, it merely simplifies a task. The same might be true with the Serpent and the brethren. They (or one of them) might have created the Serpent as an easy source for magic, or a blueprint so that whenever they create a world they don't have to do the whole 'how did I define magic'-thing again.

I'm not saying that it's true and I haven't read enough to formulate my own theories yet, I just wanted to point out that there are other plausible theories available.


As for 'Logic does not have a place in this discussion' argument earlier, I would oppose to that notion. While we're discussing a reality where things we consider impossible the discussion we have should still follow our logic, else discussion will be impossible. I can't just devise a new 'logic' and expect everyone to accept my arguments unless they first accept my logic, as we would, in a sense, not talk the same language anymore.

[Melcar]

It might also be the complete opposite. If I build a tool to help me with some task (say that as a I blacksmith I create a axe to help me chop wood) that tool is not 'more' than me, it merely simplifies a task. The same might be true with the Serpent and the brethren. They (or one of them) might have created the Serpent as an easy source for magic, or a blueprint so that whenever they create a world they don't have to do the whole 'how did I define magic'-thing again.

I'm not saying that it's true and I haven't read enough to formulate my own theories yet, I just wanted to point out that there are other plausible theories available.


As for 'Logic does not have a place in this discussion' argument earlier, I would oppose to that notion. While we're discussing a reality where things we consider impossible the discussion we have should still follow our logic, else discussion will be impossible. I can't just devise a new 'logic' and expect everyone to accept my arguments unless they first accept my logic, as we would, in a sense, not talk the same language anymore.

I get that, but I would assume its some creator magic (the language primeval), which was used to create said serpent... thus the being creating said serpent, would already have access to it. Assuming some being created magic, with magic, then magic existed before the invention of magic... So the serpent is more akin to the fire or the quantum, physical, chemical, mechanics that makes metal hard and forge-able and therefore makes it possible for the smith to create an axe in the first place. Smiting being the ability to wield magic. My thought is, that if the serpent is the flowing everlasting energies of magic, in its most raw unfiltered form, as some sort of fundamental of the multiverse, then it has always been there.

Thats why I have a hard time getting things to fit. As I've mentioned

I can either see the whole ordeal as

1) The serpent is simple the highest, most powerful being in the multiverse, as it represents the greatest force, namely magic. The serpent is the supreme being. That however conflict with the idea that is would communicate with mortals or even just intermediate deities. Since such a being would probably be too abstract for any mind, even over-deities, to comprehend.

2) The serpent, along with the rest of the brethren (the Lady of Pain, Asmodeus, Jazirian and the serpent), (which Afroakuma is pointing out, in his latest thread, might not be correct), represents some sort of fundamental structure of the multiverse or is a guardian of said structure Good, Evil, Magic, Fate etc.. Again either by command of a supreme being or simply because it could be no other way for this version of the multiverse. (However, the way its presented in "Die Vecna, Die" as the lady being possibly the peer of the serpent, would indicate to me, that the serpent is something more fundamental... which would in my mind point upwards in its tiers.)

3) There is a supreme being, who created all the over-deites (including the brethren, AO, IO, Vos'lak etc.) as a hypothetical or thought, expressed in the language primeval, which essentially could mean that every brethren is a single emotion or feeling and that each over-deity thus is a part of the supreme being.

4) The brethren and other over-deities are simply custodians to hold some sort of cosmic portfolio (the serpent holding magic), just like regular deities has portfolios, but on a cosmic scale.


I don't know, possibly my assumptions or presumptions are wrong: If the language Primeval is the fundamental language in which all that exists in the multiverse is fundamentally expressed in. A universe (or multiverse or the Omniverse (the entire number of multiverses)) being effectively a piece of code, written or spoken (by some greater being) in the language primeval. However, magic seems to be what happens when the language is spoken, thus somehow meaning that the language functions or is the fundamental building block, because magic makes it so. That would somehow mean that magic is the most fundamental part of the entire Omniverse and that magic could be an infinite, ever expanding dictionary in the language primeval. Somewhere in this dictionary, the word or expression for the multiverse in which all the gaming universes resides is written.

Now the problem arises: Which came first. The being that wrote the dictionary, thus expressing magic also as a word, expression, a piece of code or formula in the dictionary - or the dictionary itself, thus holding the word, expression or code for a being omniscient enough to read it and thus utilize it and to create the multiverses with.

One way or the other is would seem, that its necessary to accept a premise of some thing being so fundamental that its not only eternal, but that is has alway existed... what exactly that is, I'm not sure..::

I'm gonna stop my rambling now!